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Linux BIOS
An anonymous reader pointed us to the Linux Bios Project
which (surprise) is aiming to make a Linux Kernel BIOS. Its got numerous bugs, but some boards are booting. Interesting stuff, and has the potential to dramatically reduce boot time.
Shaving ten to thirty seconds off your boot time just doesn't sound that epic to me. Heck, you can save three to ten seconds by just setting the type to "none" for any nonexistent IDE devices (Secondary Slave, whatever).
What WOULD be really useful and cool would be to have a much faster and more configurable SCSI BIOS inside the system BIOS so my 29160N wouldn't take a week to get itself together... Especially if I could tell it only to scan for new devices when I've actually added something, manually, perhaps by pressing a key at the right (prompted) moment or something.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why would LinuxBios be faster than a normal one? It seems that the memory check seems to take most of the time on my machines... I'd assume there's some setup that Windows uses that Linux doesn't that could be scrapped, but I don't know any specifics.
Could someone post some specifics of the kind of things that could go, or that would be faster with LinuxBIOS?
No more tftpd or bootp for diskless booting.
But you'd still need dhcp (or rarp) and bootparam to configure the network and find a place to NFS mount / from.
Can the kernel do this?
Hands in my pocket
Every second generation PowerMac (7500,7600, 7300, 8500, 8600, 9500, 9600 and newer) have an OpenFirmware bootrom.
And most PCI-video, SCSI and other cards for the Mac have an OpenFirmware bootrom.
What about dual-booters? *GASP*...redmist ACTUALLY uses Windows? Infidel!
.{redmist}.
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Seriously, I think it would be great to run Linux on a laptop. One thing stopping me is the boot time and hassle. Unlike some OSs, Linux is not very good at, and does not seem to like, rebooting very often.
Later...
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
SCourced? I know what you mean but Linux is already an open scourge.
you haven't been reading the story. This linux BIOS can boot other systems as well, even Linux :)
Needen't fear, your dual boot setup is safe. The thing is that instead of the slooooooooooow BIOS that usually is there is being replaced.
- You may put in whatever soundcard you want, from the cheapest to the most expensive
- You may use whatever Network Interface Card you want, BNC/RJ45/Tokenring/Fiber/...
- You may put in as many HD as you want (Hmmm usually at most 4)
- You may use IDE or SCSI for your CD-ROM, CD-R,...
- ...
But also, you may put on it any OS you want, MS Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, BeOS,... And the piece of software that allows that is the BIOS.So I don't think that putting Linux directly in the BIOS is a good thing. It's only limiting the machine.
But using a linux variant that fulfit all previous BIOSes functions and adds some things like NFS boot, multitask for 16bit OSes (DOS, whatever version it is), PnP, drivers for WinModems making them usable under any OS not disabling the BIOS, FB drivers,... That would be great. And many of these functions are already implemented in Linux (sometimes partially or with extra-patches).
The linux kernel on BIOS can still be used as fallback, if there are no OS present, like the BASIC ROM was in earlier PC. Maybe there can even be reusable parts between these two. That would allows for that cluster system to be built.
I should however recognize that this project has to be started somewhere... And making the BIOS being the Linux kernel is a begin to it... But I think that it should not be the ultimate goal...
I don't think it's a good idea to have to reflash the BIOS for every kernel update, without forgetting that a bad flashing may make the PC useless.
It would not be a good thing for most Windows users if it were impossible to boot alternative OSes on most of the world's PCs without flashing the BIOS. It would be a huge blow to the freeness of the OS market. Given time, this would drive up prices / drive down efficiency in Windows/Intel, too.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Got a proliant 1600 here which has been up longer:
[coolvibe@tiamat coolvibe]$ uptime
2:09pm up 119 days, 18:49, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
And that was when I set it up. It a departemental webserver, and it's a quiet day, hence the low load avg.
Many benifits... fast booting and improved functionility and just plain getting away from legacy design (After all Linux is Unix based not CP/M based... )
One other is upgrading the BIOS.
The reason we HAVE flash BIOS is so we can upgrade it ourselfs. Upgrade to what?
New features are likely to tie more and more into Windows. Why bother.
But with this new features will be for Linux not Windows.
Finnaly when Linux PCs are built you are still paying someone for a BIOS. In many cases they are still making BIOS with MsDos in mind.
Now instead Linux PC makers can preinstall something made with Linux in mind...
I'm still hoping someone makes a software shutdown powersuply for the desktop PC...
The PS button only applys power... when off this turns the computer on... when on this sends a signal to the computer to turn off... the software then runs shutdown and then sends a signal to the powersuply telling it to accually turn off...
(I believe this allready happend so on laptops.. but this function is't passed to desktops becouse it isn't considered useful... however this is how the 3B2 works.. no real off switch just an on switch that tells the OS to shutdown)
I don't actually exist.
Intel has online information about an Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) at http://developer.intel.com/design/Ia-64/ExtenFirmw are/
It appears from Intel's documentation that the EFI layer (1) will be written in a high-level language, (2) will be OS Neutral, and (3) will be stored on a FAT32 "system" partition in addition to Flash RAM.
I would love to reboot everyday! That means that I have Linux on my work ThinkPad and I get to take it home at night and work on it at home. That's 2 (re)boots per day.
Later...
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
Sometimes it's impossible to design a board that doesn't need a jumper link; there just aren't enough layers.
Jon.
First of all... This would be very cool - boot speed close to zero... But what about kernel updates? We would have to have a Flashable EPROM... And what would happen if I flashed the wrong file? Well, sorry, no OS anymore! this calls for a mandatory, non-erasable ROM with a monitor (similar to Sun's) that would load from the flashable ROM. In short, it's not going to fit into current-generation motherboards.
A good point would be having the possibility (like in the good ol' Amiga) to change the pointers to a RAM address - In the Amiga, if I still had ROM 1.3 and wanted to run 3.1, I just told the machine to go look for it somewhere else (and give up 512KB RAM, which was still a sizable part of my RAM)... And voila, Workbench 3.1!
Let's see for IA64 on...
But, of course, you had to be a quick-post and flame me instead of doing your R&D, right?
The Linux BIOS project serves to reaffirm the unstoppable march of Linux! Over hill, over dale, over the dusty trail, Linux is rolling along. With success after success, Linux soars while other lesser operating systems founder. What makes the difference? One word: quality. Linux has all others beat on quality alone. And yet when we think of useful features, none come close to Linux. And who could deny that Linux's continued success owes much to the wisdom and kindness of Linus Torvalds himself. This demigod of operating system design has carried the Linux banner where none before have dared to tread. From the versatile PalmPilot to the mighty IBM S/390 mainframe, Linux has conquered all.
The real benefit is not necessarily to reduce the boot time to Linux - it's to enable greater functionality in the bootloader that would bootstrap the real Linux installation. Imagine being able to netboot on any card without having to flash a NIC EEPROM! You could also boot from Zip, CD-ROW, DVD or a number of other things. Imagine having a password-protected root prompt available at boot...
The possibilities are endless. I hope this one takes off.
æeee!
It'll be like an Amiga "Kickstart" - putting the core OS in hardware. Dammit, I like this kernel in the BIOS a lot. If only that it means my Amiga SDK will boot lighteningly fast.
I say it's about time - now if only supported my mobo........
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these!
"The further I get from the things that I care about, the less I care about how much further away I get." -Robert Smith
For a while now, I have been following discussions on OpenBIOS to see what they could come up with. Very impressive, really. OpenBIOS and LinuxBIOS have been sharing for some time. The big reason for it is even simpler than booting faster or putting cool things in your BIOS like graphics (which, I must admit, is cool): The project is about having a system truly free of proprietary software. Feel free to join in and contribute to either project; in the true spirit of Opensource, they share, so helping one will help the other. Ultimately, I would like to see a package that will help sysadmins customize and install thier own bios. Also, lets see Intel try and pull the serial# off a machine that has the serial#'s memory location specifially blocked off in the bios... See? The reasons for doing this go on and on. It's a new frontier in Open Source. How can anyone call themselves a hacker when they depend on Phoenix or Award to turn thier computer on for them?
Drop me a line at:
Key ID: 0x54D1D809
My primary concern with this is BIOSes like ABit's SoftCPU, which set the FSB etc. through the BIOS... if you replace their BIOS with your own Linux BIOS, how will you be able to overclock? If you have a 133MHz proc on a board that supports 100MHz, you'd better hope it sets it to 133 MHz automatically, or you're just throwing cycles in the air willy-nilly.
But set-top boxes and other cheap computers probably do.
Those systems usually boot out of flash anyway. What's the point? OpenBIOS tried this and (IMO) has failed. I can't think of a single reason to put Linux into BIOS. 32-bit BIOS? Linux doesn't use it anyway.
Maybe I'm just a crusty old fart though.
This would be interesting... is it the first time an BIOS-OS has been attempted on the PC? I'm curious.
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Oh my god, Bear is driving! How can this be?
ADVENTURERS! - ANTIHERO FOR HIRE - CARDMASTER CONFLICT
The fact that the original PC had a ROM BASIC is, by the way, still visible in modern PC's in the form of one of the most confusing error messages of all time. When you boot a PC and no partition on the hard drive is marked bootable (IIRC), the BIOS will say: "No ROM BASIC" ;)
Well as much as I hate the time that it takes to boot, I can't remember the last time that I had to.
Has it occurred to anyone that if computer and computer component designers and manufacturers would quit trying to support Microsoft (non-)operating systems, then we'd have thumbnail- sized supercomputers?
Also, how much faster would Transmeta have finished Crusoe if they didn't have to compensate for the 16 (8?) bit code that Microsoft uses? (And how much better would the chip be?)
I'm still waiting for my 1600x1200 contact lens.
How about a pointer to the Forth port of Pong for OpenFirmware? I'd give that a shot.
A microkernel BIOS, like Mach or Amoeba implemented in BIOS. This would be faster than fast, and still flexible enough to support multiple OSs.
With a box like this, I could...dare I say it?...rule the world!
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Zardoz has spoken!
Oper on the Nightstar
I already know all about Linus and how he was born in a log cabin in Finland and his mom and drap scraped to save enough to send him to college where he got into a newsgroup shouting match with Andy Tanenbaum while working on Linux.
I have already read his BIOS. Why do I need to read it again?
Sheesh.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Fast booting: This is the point I best noted. Just think being able to replace all major A/V equipment in your house with linux boxes. Once they boot as fast as normal equiptment and we can already have them mount a ro filesystem for quick shutdown, my god it will be beautiful. I can't wait to be able to telnet to any A/V in my house. Use TCP/IP to create a electorinic system which can talk to each other. I.E. when my computer starts playing a CD or mp3 automatically mute my TV and turn on CC.
I can hardly wait.
tcd004
Have you been to wwink's Blog?
Plus, your Linux box should require *far less* rebooting than WinNT or 2k.
Only reason to do this would be if your operating system and BIOS were to be merged. So instead of your computer not knowing what it is loading, the BIOS would already be prepared for it. Other than that, I don't see how it could be made faster. If there was a way, wouldn't mobo manufacturers already implement it?
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
That's a good point. Can anyone with LinuxPPC and x86 experience here compare/contrast their ideas with Open Firmware?
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Well, if you read the information on the page, that is exactly what they are trying to get around.
they are replacing the bios with an image of the kernel, so that we aren't dealing with this "sudo-OS".
something you also learn when you read the page, is that they start in 16 bit mode (as required by the cpu) and then about immediatly jump to 32 bit mode, gunzip the linux image, and run with it..
----------------
"All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening."
"All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening."
- Alexandar Woolcot
Actually, they are doing this so their cluster nodes can get boot instructions from the network.
For instance,
"Hi. I'm computer #42 - how should I boot?"
"Hello computer #42. Boot diskless, and mount / to blah..blah..blah.."
But you know this since you read the page before posting.
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IA-64 boxes are going to have a workstation-PROM-like system as a replacement for the BIOS, called EFI. It can read FAT filesystems, run its own programs to do fdisk, format etc. I'm not sure how extensible it is, to read other file systems etc, but it's certainly a huge step up from the BIOS.
Again, this project is booting Linux right now and is in active development by a paid staff. It's just gonna get better. :}
--
Hand me that airplane glue and I'll tell you another story.
Heretical though it may be, some of us run Win95 for games and Linux for anything serious. Is it possible to do a multiboot BIOS that could boot Linux and Windows (and BSD and Solaris and BEOS) with equal efficiency?
The Second Amendment Sisters
Finding God in a Dog
Mac Classic could boot from a full version of the OS in ROM.
Well I'm pretty sure BIOS code (the propietary kind that most people have in there ROM) is written assembly so minus it not being commented a dissassembler in theory would give you source code.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Imagine having even the boot block and swap partition encrypted.
Mike
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
Actually, thousands (millions?) of people boot a 16-bit OS every day. It's called MS-DOS. Most of those people think their OS is Win95 or Win98, which themselves contain significant amounts of 16-bit code, but really it's MS-DOS 7. There's a very simple proof that this is the case: Win95/98 supports long file names. If you disable automatically starting the GUI on boot, you get a command prompt, and no LFNs. Therefore this command prompt is not Win95/98. If you then type "win", the GUI starts, just like Win[123].x. This is exactly the process normally used to boot Win95/98, except win.com is normally called automatically.
I do, however, agree that the IA-32 architecture is fundamentally broken. In fact, the words horse, dead, a and flogging come to mind. IA-64 is a step in the right direction, and hopefully Willamette will be the last IA-32 processor. However, I can see 2 problems with IA-64.
I agree completely with what you're saying, but there is one place where this would fit: servers. Servers need as close to 100% uptime as possible, and (if it's high end) will probably have some SCSI in it, meaning long boot times. Taking the 2 minutes out of the boot time for that would be well worth it in a server situation, where you're not worried about having to put (or have) another OS on it.
One Microsoft Way
My plan is to pimp before they realize I'm a jackass. Hit 'em hard and fast.
Well, if you're using an x86 family processor, the moment you're turning it on you're actually running a 16-bit processor. The processor has to be explicitly told to behave like a 32-bit processor (or `switched to protected mode' if you prefer). This is so you can run your ancient segmented:memory_model software on that same box.
--frank[at]unternet.org
Could you shrink the code such that you don't need a hard drive on your firewall? Just turn the power on and your ready to go -- the thing is up in seconds. Maybe this would be nice in a beowulf cluster (no I am not trolling here!) No need for hard drives, floppies or even moniters. All you need is a bunch of motherboards with on-board ethernet.
At work we have an old 486 that is hooked up to our Fourier transform spectrometer. The code to do the FFT is in the bios. The the code is totally optimized it is quite fast for a 486 -- as you can imagine the device is a couple of years old but it still works. Might be nice to be able to set up a pc to do one thing well like that.
Hey, it was enough of an OS to allow you load other programs, an access hardware directly (peek/poke). That's goodness.
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
I used to have Be on that machine, it was about 2 minutes. I remember that the HD detect part of the boot (I forget the real name) was taking a long time. That box really does have some strange hardware, but the kernel now has C-Media support, so I don't care.
it's green.
Slashdot already has a rather large Linux BIAS.
I think alot of people are missing the point of the project.. It's not about speed, although that's a neat side effect. It's about being able to pull boot instructions from a network without the limitations of the technologies that already do that. Look far down on the page.. they have a section called "Why we are doing this.." It's not a speed thing..
wish
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Yeah, as if Linux users need to reboot the machine 5 times a day or something like that.... When was the last time I booted up my Linux box? Can't remember. That being said, it's good thing. Probably now I don't need to care about the limited HD size permitted just because I have an old BIOS. I can blow the whole thing away, and get Linux in there. Am I too ahead of the project?
So does this mean we can see a pretty picture of our Tux at power-up time? That would be the best part of it all.
The next site to slashdot will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and start slashdotting it early!
Only 12 years ago? AT / x86 architecture is a bit older than that, i'm afraid. Look at a BIOS programers guide too one day, and check all the cruft that thankfully, Linux never has to use.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
I saw this yesterday on ./ and discussed it with my office neighbor. There are significant advantages here.
1. Like a Sun box, console output could be directed to serial. This is important when you are running a box as a server and want to debug the boot process. (Hey, can we get a diag-mode too?)
2. My neighbor sells pcs that are specifically designed to broadcast audio/video over the net using linux. They are very much appliances, as they just need to be plugged in and a few questions answered (IP info). This BIOS could allow him to tailor the boot environment to the specific hardware he has included.
3. Security: I believe you could require a password/login in order to boot a linuxBIOS machine. This could make my laptop worthless to a thief who doesn't have an NVRAM burner.
There are other things we came up with, but I've only got a few minutes.
_damnit_
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
a QBasic BIOS
:) The original IBM PC had BASIC in ROM. Turn on the machine without a hard drive and without a disk in the floppy drive and you received a BASIC prompt. The Commodore 64, Apple II, and later Atari machines (XL and XE models) were the same way, dating back to the seventies in the case of the Apple.
Ah, a yung 'un
Yep, but those BIOSs where not open source.
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http://www.machack.com/Hack98.html
It's called OFPong.
--
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Isn't that Los Alamos? Better make a mirror of the site quickly. Who knows what'll happen to the hard drives in the host.
I know I'm needlessly going into the past of slashdot, but...
This is bogus. Your computer boots into MS-DOS 7.0, yes. Then it sets some environment variables, which get picked up when win.com loads.
win.com then kicks off the rest of windows, and from that point on, you're running under a 32 bit kernel, with mostly 32 bit programs running under it.
Mind you, Win98 still contains some 16 bit code. However, just because you can load linux from dos doesn't make it a 16 bit operating system. (Anyone ever type loadlin?) Windows 98 is the same deal.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Coincidentally, 16-bit support isn't complete in OpenBIOS. Just 32-bit, IIRC.
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
Why use something with so much overhead for your vcr to talk with your toaster? NetBEUI would be great for this, just give everything a unique ID. If you actually needed net access thats another story :)
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
I'd love to power-on to linux - but in case I want something else, how about a boot-option to load the original BIOS from a teeny partition on the HDD? As linux is, I'm assuming the original BIOS is just another app which could be run off the HDD if needed. If not, maybe Award/Intel/whoever could make a specialized ver. Who knows.
Here at the office, I can talk to Mr. Printer, and Mr. DSL box. They are very friendly since they talk to me via telnet. If only my toaster, microwave, fridge, washer, drier, TV, VCR, and car were as friendly.
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
Oh well... Posting anon so I don't get my ass sued for breach of my NDA.
linuxbios boots into 32-bit protected mode as soon as possible, so that we can write as much code as possible in 32-bit C, compiled with gcc.
The odd thing is that there is already a decent standard for that on PCs. It's called WfM and has a component called PXE. Which provides a generic ABI to a network driver. It uses DHCP/BOOTP to boot off the network. Part of that negotiation indicates whether a network boot is appropriate as well. Then it downloads a small loader that can then use the generic network driver to download you actual OS/management tool/whatever.
Additionally most cards that support it also support WOL so you can power up machines remotely.
Call me a spoiled brat.. but when I was in fifth grade, my dad handed me some old mips machine. That thing was about as loud as a truck idling from across the room. At least the two pentiums plus one laptop I have in my room now are very quiet. Quiet enough that my wife doesn't complain about them.
:)
I wouldn't worry about the noise too much, especially since I'll sleep with the radio on. I worry about the heat that those things can generate.
Besides, I was only kidding about the reboot thing, I reboot about once or twice a month for kernel upgrades, etc. and when my laptop hardware gets squirrly.
I just amuse myself at the fact that so many Unix admins flaunt their uptime with a sense of pride. I'll never forget when I was a little kid, convincing my little sister to hit the power button on one of the VAX's my dad had in his closet. I can't remember much, but I bet he was mad for about a month about that one. I notice that now all his machines lack a power button.
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
I compile new kernels frequently (two yesterday, one today so far) and I don't like running LILO every time I want to use a new kernel.
Use GRUB instead.
Yes, but that is a truly evil, hard to impliment, specification. Most cards require a boot rom, and even those that don't, are difficult to set up correctly. With this, they can set it up ANY WAY they want. (Or, you could set your systems up any way you want.) The main benefit of getting this to work is flexibility...
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
you are not supposed to reboot your linux (or other 'nix) box EVER!
I wish i didn't have to (I could leave it dialed in all the time too), but my box is about 5 feet from my bed, and there is no way i can sleep when the PSU fan is going. I have to switch almost all my stuff off in fact, i can't even stand the feric core transformer "hum".
I must be me though, i know loads of people who love the sound of the PSU fan at night.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
From the Linux-Kernel Archive:
OpenBIOS Mailing List (was: GNU-BIOS mailing list)
Dave Cinege (dcinege@psychosis.com)
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:37:59 -0500
I changed the name simply because I like this better (and GNU doesn't really fit in the context of a BIOS, don't ya think??)
SOOOOO if you are one of the late comers trying to get on the GNU-BIOS list, and it is bouncing, this is why. To subscribe send mail to: openbios-request@linkscape.net
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.rutgers.edu
You have one in your computer now. If you need to boot OSes (And I use that term loosely) that require BIOS, stick to that. Windows 95/98 users are out of luck. NT probably doesn't need a BIOS but it probably wouldn't like this one either, knowing NT. YMMV with OS/2, BeOS, etc.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Yep, but those BIOSs where not open source.
You could get a listing of the Atari ROM OS from Atari in the Technical Reference Notes. A full, commented source listing. Neat! You could also get the full source to Atari DOS, with lots of commentary, in the book "Inside Atari DOS" (only $12.95).
Who ever had problems with linux and their bios? Maybe 9 years ago with kernel 0.001 or something.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
I know listening to the fan at night helps me sleep better, but some of my friends turn the fan off because it annoys them. Of course, they have to turn their boxes off at night anyway because of those huge Win98 memory leaks.
Future slashdot headline:
"Linux Nanoprobes" - yes, now any piece of electronics can be running linux in just a simple syringe injection! computers, palm computers, watches, heck, even your digital camera can run OS in no time!
Have you ever wanted to login to your BIOS?
Have you ever wanted to recompile the kernel on your JamCam?
Have you ever setup a VCR to be a firewall?
YOU WILL. And the entity that will bring it to you is Linux!
Did I just read the phrase "zero-ohm resistor" or do my EE eyes deceive me?
(from http://www.acl.lanl.gov/linuxbios/pictures.htm )
A major benefit to an Open Source BIOS (for the ultra paranoid, at least) is that it is finally possible to run only trusted code right from system boot time.
One can imagine several security exploits that would be possible if the NSA, for example, had influence with Award, AMI, Phoenix, etc. and placed their own routines to run in BIOS.
Dave
P.S. Now if we can only get Intel and motherboard vendors to allow us to audit their microcode and manufacturing processes....
Imagine Netscape coming up with its own "NetScapeBIOS", which provides many new features to users.
Then Microsoft pacts with Intel to "integrate" with processors, their "IEBIOS", which will be rendered inseparable from the PC.
Then, there will be lawsuits and AntiTrust cases against Microsoft.
Then it will again be split up into a BIOS making company and a Browser company.
And the war will continue....
How can Microsoft help create a legacy free PC when large chunks of it's OS are 16-bit code? That seems a wee bit hypocritical to me, abandoning all legacy hardware but keeping support for all legacy software. They might even have a decent/stable OS if they just trimmed out all the unnecessary 16-bit stuff (from win98/winME) and any legacy code in win2k.
The BOIS could be optimized for Linux and could be could open scourced.
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If my facts are wrong then tell me. I don't mind.
Also they mentioned the tendency of most BIOSes to screw up the configuration of PCI devices. With this, any Plug-n-Pray devices you have would be configured by linux instead of by your BIOS. I think. maybe.
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
This is not the only 'free BIOS' project.
Just search on freshmeat and you'll find OpenBIOS, Free BIOS, Linux BIOS and GNU BIOS . It might be possible that even more projects like this exist...
I think this is great news. I am currently working on a flight control and navigation computer for unmanned air vehicles and I have been looking at using a POSIX based Real Time OS, but boot time for that application is very critical (longer than one second for reboot and you now have $1M mantel piece). Anyway, having the ability to easily streamline the BIOS could help push Linux into the aerospace flight controls industry.
When life hands you a lemon, find some Tequilla and salt.
Hardware vendors pay Microsoft a lot of money for the right to put those stickers on their boxes.
Every time I see one of those stickers on a machine, I peel it off, and stick it on the closest trash can.
"Combining" does not mean "is." Gnu/OpenBios did and still does have it's own page, and its own development. Yes, these are related, and are probably very relevant, but that's not what you claimed or what I flamed you for. You claimed it was recycled news. You can try to twist and spin it, but it is just not recycled, and that is what you claimed before you bothered to do the reading yourself. Go away... you are no better than the first posters.
IAAL,BIANLY
..a QBasic BIOS.
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It would be nice if things like this could make it into the mainstream, as the PC architecture in general could use a total overhaul, considering a brand spankin new PC now is built on the same technology that it was 12 years ago. Would be worthwhile to get rid of that antiquated IRQ system, eh?
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
FYI - Microsoft's pages for "Legacy-free" PCs and BIOSes: http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/newpc/
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
I also have four 8-way proliant servers that take about 4-6 minutes to initialize their drive arrays and bootstrap the OS. However, they haven't been down since I set'em up six months ago. And our intranet web server hasn't been rebooted since last november. (yep, it runs Windoze NT4.0)
so, as far as I'm concerned, four minutes every six months is okay. if you can't afford it, it's probably because you are running servers, and then there is always clustering.
I don't want to sound like I'm dismissing this whole thing, but the ideal situation would be to have true plug and play OSs and hot-plug hardware. I don't see absolutely any reason why an OS could run for years without the need to reboot. And I suspect we'll see that very soon.
Microsoft has already hinted at it. If it will trully happen first from MS or from Linux, I don't know.
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$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Going backward in time, through PCs alone:
Reboot? Whazzat?
pat:/home/pat> uptime
6:50pm up 68 days, 21:22, 4 users, load average: 0.12, 0.12, 0.10
Yes, I know, this leaves me a few kernels behind. =P
What I want in a BIOS is
It seems to me that Open Firmware is a good contender and starting point. It is already fairly widely used, it is programmable, and it seems to work fairly well. One of the nicer features is that it is actually programmable (in Forth) and provides full access to the machine. So, you can load extensions (e.g., new partitioning schemes) into it easily and portably. I believe there is an open source project trying to create an Open Firmware implementation for PCs (I can't find the link, though).
You other people go ahead and use fancy mulit-boot loaders and whatever. I'll just keep on using this.
it's green.
No.
Hardware vendors pay Microsoft a lot of money for the right to put those stickers on their boxes. If you think you can convince them that this is a bad idea, be my guest.
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$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Yes. You just have Linux redirect system control to another object (such as a hard drive's boot sector, or a network resource, or a floppy disk, or even a serial port) and you can boot to any device, just like a normal BIOS, only more flexible. And, yes, they would have to impliment almost an entire BIOS to boot into Win95/98, but, it wouldn't have to be as powerful, because once the 32-bit part of Win9x loads, it ignores the BIOS, just like Linux.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Hard OSs are the future, in my opinion. I seem to remember a little thing called a Commadore 64 that had a hard OS. That was the past, hrmm..
Okay, forget the Commadore. If we have an OS like this, that is really just the kernal, there is a nice speed up in the boot, but also a nice jump in stability. Consider a console game system. Do they crash much? No. The developers know exactly what they are writing for. Microsoft has things like the registry, integrated software and upgrades from heck. How can we write for that? The idea of packages is nice. We all remember and loved the DOS model of being able to delete a directory to uninstall a program. That is smart, like taking the game out of your Nintendo. If we can pack as much static binary into a static media, we will be in good shape. Then to check your program's compatability, just find out what BIOS versions work from the software manufacturer.
Wouldn't it be nice to have your dual boot system be as simple as changing the BIOS card in the front of the case?
-Effendi
-Effendi
...you are not supposed to reboot your linux (or other 'nix) box EVER!
This is sacrilige!
I only reboot my laptop on the off chance that it doesn't come back from suspend right. (thank you BIOS). All my desktop machines stay on forever.
Considering all that, it always boots fast enough for me. But linux in the BIOS is cool...
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
Seriously, this BIOS stuff has got to go. Nobody uses 16-bit operating systems anymore; why are we still booting 32-bit (and soon 64-bit) operating systems using a 16-bit BIOS?
... but in reality, nobody uses any of it anymore, except the little bit required to chain-load into a 32-bit OS.
Non-PC platforms all have nice, simple ROM Monitors with simple, straightforward methods of loading the operating system kernel and then getting out of the way. On the PC, we have this gargantuan pseudo-OS that carries all sorts of legacy crud with it to support MS-DOS
This is one of those things that make the PC a 'fundamentally broken' architecture. Until things like this get changed, there will always be a delineation between PC's and 'real computers'.
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Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Will this lead to the introduction of silly little "Designed for GNU/Linux" stickers to replace the silly little "Designed for Windows 98/NT" stickers?
Christopher A. Bohn
cb
Oooh! What does this button do!?
Plain old wrong. This is not the first link, but rather a new derivative of it, with a different purpose. OpenBIOS != LinuxBios.
/. However, if you actually cared to improve the quality of /., you could easily have posted it at +2. But no... that would reduce the number of points you could get. Ugh.
~luge
P.S. This is karma whoring at its worst. Not only is the information incorrect, it would have taken all of two seonds to get it right. Instead, you had to rush to get an early post so that you could get modded up. Furthermore, you address it to Slashdot, so that you can attract the moderators who love to complain about
IAAL,BIANLY
At Rebel.com, we've had this kind of bios in the NetWinder since day 1. The original idea belongs to nettwerk (who's at VA now). The idea was that we wanted the NetWinder to be able to boot from: disk, zip drive, tftp, nfs or parallel-port-cdrom. The kernel knows how to do all that, so why not make a bios out of the kernel. PatB
My dual pentium pro (running at 233mhz) takes three minutes to do the MEMORY TEST on a cold boot...
Three minutes to boot to a prompt would be great.
but, it has been been 79 days since it was last rebooted (power failure)
$uptime
4:58pm up 79 days, 3:34, 1 user, load average: 2.29, 2.08, 2.02
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The newsbit missed the point. The really exciting thing is not that it's an open "BIOS", but that it is an open source Open Firmware implementation!!! Forget about PCs. This might give a strong push in the OpenFirmware direction for embedded and industrial computers. No more dealing with custom PROM monitors. YEEHAA!!
The first couple that come to my mind:
Commodore PET/16/64/Plus4/128
Atari 400/800/600XL/800XL/similars
Ok, Ok, BASIC is not an OS... Here I go:
Atari 520ST/1040ST/Falcon (or was it Dragon?)
Amiga 1000/500/2000/2500/3000/600/1200/4000
In short, the machines we grew up with.
My box's linux OS comes up in half the time that W2k or NT comes up. What did I miss. This must be a really important thing if it's on slashdot!!
Real men don't use sigs.
Boot time is approx. 1 min, 900MHz P3 (current kernel is 2.4.0-test1-ac19)
it's green.
on SourceForge.
It's still crude (we're working on it)- but it is booting Linux _right_ _now_ on SiS530 chipsets.