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Hacking The Tivo
K2 dug up a page where people are discussing hacking the Tivo (note to outsiders: Hacking is a good thing!) Essentially, they figured out how to mount the boot partition, and get a shell running off the serial port. It's a long page, and it doesn't start getting really interesting until you're a third of the way into it, but it opens up the door for fun ways of voiding your warranty like adding bigger hard drives... of course my dream is a way to suck MP3s over and use a few gigs of Tivo as a stereo component, but that'd take some doing.
Well, that's sort of the consequence of having many developers, redundancy. You could always have someone scrape the fat off. Of course, you could also just have someone say, "Hey, this is the newest shit, use this" in the install files.
Eh...
Does anyone know if TIVO has any of the above in the works?
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
According to the TV industry, TIVO Is Violence and Oppression.
nuclear cia fbi spy password code encrypt president bomb
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
I have been pondering the possibility of using my computer for the same services. Perhaps a software package that has the functions of tivo is in order?
Eh...
Check out http://www.tivo.com/linux/. It has their mods to the kernel and some tools they created. Since they aren't really losing money on the hardware I don't think they care if you hack it.
They won't like a Linux box able to record shows. So, what if the Tivo runs linux, they don't care about facts, they just want to scare people into kissing their asses!
Fight Spammers!
Most of the replies to this are of the form, "Oh, you're thinking of cracking, and yeah, that's a bad thing. We're talking about hacking, and that's a good thing."
The poster has a good point: the distinction between 'good hack' and 'bad hack' is lost on the crowd, especially in the world of suits. None of the mainstream dictionaries describe this difference, or define 'cracking' in a computer context.
I think reverse-engineering and adaptation of things is very cool, and the inventor/tinkerer ethic is quite well-received in the world as a whole. However, that's not what 90% of the public thinks about when they hear the word 'hacker'.
Reality is perception. If 90% of the people don't see a distinction, then for all intents and purposes, there is no distinction. Even if the remaining 10% scream, whine, bitch, complain and sneer whenever the word is used.
[
I was thinking more along the lines of just using xawtv for vidcap and playback, and perhaps some mods that allow for pausing, commercial elimination, stuff like that.
Eh...
When I worked at blockbuster, they played a tape over and over and over again each month with movie previews, music videos, etc. Needless to say the tape and VCR gets worn out.
They should just get a TiVo for each blockbuster with an Ethernet port(no, wait, then it'd need DSL. how about a CD-ROM?) and then each Blockbuster could download the preview loop(maybe even have it go longer than 2 hours so employees wont go out of their minds from the reptition) and play it on the monitors all day.
Oh yeah, I smell an IPO here.
I'd say the best part of this is the how-to guide to getting a second HD in the unit. Something like 30GB of disk on the Tivo. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum 6/HTML/004437.html
I've been a regular over on that board for a while (nick: Otto) and there's really only one reason people are hacking it, right now. To add new drives. New drives = more space to record programs. They use a weird filesystem called Media FS for storing the recorded programs, and to add a new drive you have to do some strange things with the Tivo software. You can plug in anything, but the Tivo software won't recognize it unless you follow a certain procedure. Since Tivo won't tell us, we're just figuring it out. There have been 2 reports of someone doing a self upgrade on the space. One guy copied the second drive from a fresh, unused Tivo, the other guy says he figured out how to "bless" a drive so the Tivo software recognizes it.
/dev/ttyS3 and then you can use a null modem cable to connect to that shell while it's back in the Tivo unit. Pretty neat.
Anyway, we've been working on this for a while, and the possibilities are staggering. The Tivo is essentially a PowerPC 50 Mhz or so, with a built in modem/ IDE interface card. Also on board are an MPEG encoder and decoder chips and a TV tuner. Very neat. The serial port is actually used to directly connect to DSS receivers, to change channels reliably.
To connect a shell to the serial port: take out the drive, mount it under linux (use bswap to do byte swapping). To mount it under linux, you probably have to recompile your kernel using the genhd.c from the tivo linux sources. Anyway, once you mount it you'll find several things on several partitions. You can then edit the startup rc.d's to put a shell on
There's a lot of cool swag going on here, but it'll be a while before good mods come out. The only thing I worry about is that some wanker will hack the thing to get around Tivo's service.
Making it not use Tivo's service at all would be extremely difficult. Making it use Tivo service wrongly, by giving the wrong serial or some such, would be easier, but they could crack down on the modified Tivo's and not let people with mods dialin anymore. That would suck. Plus, since Tivo updates the software from time to time, an update to a modded box could ruin the sucker.
Just some of my thoughts, and insights.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I think you're wrong on this.. Hackers are defined in the Jargon file (also well known amoungst the more tech-savvy) as the following:
"Hacking" the TIVO would appear to fit 1,3,and 7 at least. One other thing to keep in mind is the collosally important tradition of reverse-engineering that is at the heart and soul of all curious, intelligent people who don't care to (or can't afford to) accept without scrutiny an object/news story/law that is packaged up by some other group of people with their own motivations.
I'm getting a little carried away, but I think that being able to dissect something to see how it works is a fundamental cornerstone of democracy, which is why laws like the DCMA are so dangerous. Certain companies and certain governments would love it if their citizens were unable to make informed decisions. Careful analysis, whether it is on hardware,software,media,etc. is a basic check against manipulation.
So, whether people are hacking the TIVO for an intellectual challenge, to see if they can make more effective use of their money, or to reassure themselves that the device isn't doing anything more than they expect, the act itself is an excercise in analysis that should always be considered "a good thing".
Simply because some choose to do evil things with information does not make the pursuit of information evil. -OT
Here's the text of our announcement in case AVS Forum gets slashdotted. BTW, I'm cc. :)
/dev/ttyS3. Also you need to blank out the
/dev/hdb". Then shut down your TiVo and hook the
/dev/hdX" and type in these commands:
/dev/hdX" and type these commands:
/dev/hda7 /mnt". Then run this to add the magic bit /dev/hdb3". Type /mnt" to unmount that diagnostics partition, and reboot your TiVo. /dev/hdb".
Here's how to add a B drive to your TiVo by "blessing" it. This is
approximately how we did it. We've only done it a few times so far. We will
be refining the process. We simply wanted to get the initial information out
quickly.
This has only been verified to work on a few units so far. A HDR112 has been
upgraded to 52 hours with a 30 gig Quantum, another HDR112 has been upgraded
to 40 hours with a 20 gig Quantum, and a Sony 30 hour unit has been upgraded
as well with a Maxtor B drive, although the newer Sony/Phillips units have a
drive locking mechanism that makes it very hard to mount their A drives in a
non-TiVo Linux box.
WARNING: This modification is not "easy". You take all responsibility for
modifying your TiVo in this way. It does involve opening the case and
breaking the warranty sticker. Do not call TiVo support if you make a
mistake and break your TiVo. If you break it, you own both pieces. If you
mess up, don't expect us to fix it for you either. Maybe some day someone
will release a utility that will just bless a drive in 1 easy command on
your PC, but at this point, it's pretty tricky. It requires that you have
various technical knowledge about Linux and other software tools. You could
easily render your TiVo inoperable and possibly unrecoverable.
WARNING 2: There hasn't been a lot of testing so far on this procedure of
course. Mine seems to be working perfectly at 52 hours, but you must accept
the risk that something bad may happen down the road. We suggest that you
back up your original A drive in some fashion in case you make a mistake.
How to do that we leave up to you.
PDISK DISCLAIMER: We had to modify the source code to pdisk. Use it at your
own risk. There may be bugs. We're not responsible for any loss of data.
And PLEASE - be careful when you open the unit. It's power supply is
unshielded. Stay away from it.
In short - if you don't _understand_ what is going on below, don't do it.
Just being able to read a list of steps may not be enough at this point.
When I refer to hard drive partitions on the Linux box, I'll use hdX where X
is whatever letter is appropriate for that drive.
I used a Quantum lct10 30 gig drive (part number QML30000LB-A) that I bought
from www.onsale.com. My off the shelf Quantum seems to have the Quickview
and TiVo extensions in it, perhaps they all do. It is the same drive used in
HDR31202's and presumably the newer Sonys. Any drive may work as a B drive,
but I've only tried my Quantum. Also be aware - the version of Linux on the
TiVo doesn't seem to support drives larger than 33.8 gig. I don't know if
TiVo patched their older kernel to support them. Set the B drive's jumper to
slave.
You need to be able to access the original A drive and new B drive from
another Linux box. To do this on an x86 box, you need to integrate TiVo's
modifications to the Mac partition code. There are some patches on
ftp://ftp.curry.org/pub/tivo, ftp://ftp.rotorway.org/incoming/tivo, and
http://www.wasteland.org/tivo. Please, if anyone can mirror these few files
it would be very helpful. If we get hit too hard, we'll have to take the
files down. You also need to be able to turn on byte swapping for those 2
drives (hdX=bswap). I had the most luck with Linux 2.4.0-test1. You also
need to enable the Mac partitioning in the kernel.
If that all works, you'll see the TiVo's partitions on the A drive hooked to
your Linux box. There should be 11 of them. Mount partition 4 (hdX4)
somewhere, it's an ext2 filesystem. Edit the bottom of etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit
so it starts a bash shell on
first few sectors on the new B drive, with this command: "dd if=/dev/zero
of=/dev/hdX bs=512 count=32".
Get the hard drives back in the TiVo (both of em) and hook up the DSS serial
cable to your computer. You'll need a null modem adapter and gender changer
at the minimum. The terminal settings are 9600,8N1. You should get a bash
prompt shortly after the "please wait a few more seconds" screen. Run this
command: "/sbin/bootpage -D
B drive back up to the Linux box.
Now you need a modified version of pdisk which is available on the sites
I mentioned above. Compile it if necessary (it's in RCS format). With the
B drive in the Linux box, run "pdisk
i
w
y
q
Then run: "pdisk -d
C 2p 4M "Second MFS application region" MFS
C 3p 3p "Second MFS media region" MFS
x
m
3
x
w
y
q
That will create the new partitions. Shut down the Linux box now and mount
the B drive in the TiVo permanently. Turn the TiVo back on and get into the
bash shell on it again.
You need to mount the diagnostics partition next. Type this on your TiVo:
"mount -t ext2 -o ro
sequence to your new B drive: "/mnt/diag/genAddDiskTiVoID
"umount
That should do it. Check the system information and see if your capacity
increased. If not, you can try this one last thing that I don't believe is
necessary, but it might be: mount the diagnostics partition again, and run
"/mnt/diag/setkeys -globalkeys
That's it. If you want to now, you can edit the rc.sysinit to stop the bash
shell from starting (or if you were smart, you made a backup copy when you
started and can just copy the backup over the modified one).
Credit for figuring out this procedure goes to cc, Peter Creath, TivoTechie,
and Ron Curry.
6/21/00
I have a BT848 capture card. I use the BTTV drivers. xawtv can capture (and with mods it can descrable). There are video cards with TV out, but it seems to be smartest to encode to mpeg for storage, so encode to mpeg, and then modify the DVD hacks that use a creative DVD card to playback your recordintgs to TV. Boom, you're done :-)
Eh...
The forces of darkness (MPAA members and the TV/Cable networks) do not want you to have control over the box. They want to collect fees for the use of their content, add copy protection and playback restrictions, insert commercials at the box, and disable any features that they think are bad for their business. They have made substantial investments in the companies that produce these systems. Do you want to skip over a commercial? Sorry, Time-Warner has decided to disable that feature. Wouldn't you rather watch a trailer for Sony's latest motion picture?
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I hacked my Tevos. I stapled leather all over the upside, and now I have shoes for the price of sandals! And it's so cool, because if I want to watch a scene in a movie again, I just slip them on, walk over to the VCR, hit rewind, and voila! time shifting!
Apparently so.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
hack (hk)
v. hacked, hacking, hacks
v. tr.
Now obviously, in common language the word can have two meanings. What the "true" definition of the word is depends on the person using it and the person who's receiving it. There's no such thing as an absolute definition.
I just bought a Tivo last night. Has anyone successfully added another big drive in thier Tivo?
Yes, you can add a second drive. The kernel they used has the 33.8 gig limit, so you can't go larger than that yet. It's not yet clear if we're going to be able to get an upgraded kernel in place without active assistance/participation from TiVo. (It's not just a matter of compiling a kernel and dropping it in place. There are other issues we're uncovering.)
I've read a couple comments now about how someone wants to add this new component or that new drive to the Tivo, but really, how difficult would it be to simply build a new computer with a video capture card, an IR remote control, a nice A3D digital (or optical) output soundcard (like the Aureal Vortex), a huge IDE harddrive, a network card and a 3D card? All of a sudden, you've got yourself a Linux entertainment center...
I mean, come on. For $600 retail, you could easily do what Tivo does on your own. OK. Maybe not that easily, there's the matter of the controlling software and making it as user-friendly as the TIVO's UI presentation. You could still manage the functionality with a little brain-power and a few work-arounds. Plus, you could play your favorite games as well! ;-)
assert(expired(knowledge));
Has anyone ever heard of Audio ReQuest? (http://www.request.com) I heard of it from mp3.com's web site. ReQuest is basically an mp3 player for your home Audio-Video system.
:-)
Why hack your TiVo when you can buy a 17gb networkable mp3 player that connects to your TV?
Then again, why buy a 800$ ReQuest when you can simply hack your TiVo?
Heck! The solution might be to shell out the cash to buy both a TiVo and a ReQuest, and then proceed to turn one into the other just for the heck of it.
K.
You should write a HOWTO. There is a ton of good info on avsforum but it's so spread out and pieced together that it's hard for most to follow. A good HOWTO would be great.
What would be nice is to add software that converts the MPEG-2 files to MPEG-4 (DivX). That way you could store at least twice as much. You could also add the feature to Archive shows, which would do the conversion.
witty sig goes here
The one and only reason I haven't looked into getting a Tivo yet is the mandatory subscription you have to pay for along with the price of the Tivo itself. If there was a way to remove this from the unit, or better yet, put in an ethernet card and have it "subscribe" to a server on your network so that you can feed it your own information, I would buy one of these in a heartbeat.
Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
Are these things legal, so to speak, i mean are you allowed to record stuff from the TV Networks (i am talking technically, not rights &tc, just plain and simple law). :-).
Yes. The betamax case way back when pretty much settled the whole question of recording shows and time-shifting content.
However, copyright still lies with the network. You, in theory, can't record a show off TV then copy it for a friend. At least, not while making cash off it.
Of course there's a difference between what the law says and what the networks do for enforcement. Their main concern is that you don't rip their content without showing the commercials too. That really irks them.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Tivo and Divx sat together in the cold damp cell, clutching each other for safety. "he's always getting me into these fscking messes" Tivo thought, "well, no longer". He slid his legs through the hay covering the ground, looking for any sort of blunt object. It's time he took care of that Divx problem.
.mp3 collection to the wrong people. Hell hath no fury like the Canadian Music Industry.
.mp3s yet?"
It all started three months ago when Divx had suggested that they drive through the wilds of Canada. Tivo had never been to Canada, having spent his whole life in the deserts of Arizona, so it seemed like an exciting and interesting trip. And he really needed to get out for a while. The same scenery kinda blurs after a while, and every once in a while a vacation is all but necessary. Despite some of the trouble he had with Divx in the past (including a particularly frightening incident where Divx didn't pay for his $3 crack and they were roughed up by the moderafia), Tivo thought that the trip was just what he needed. He shuddered at the aliteration in the last sentance. Some things no man should ever have to witness.
It seemed okay at first. They made it into Vancouver without a problem, and spent a few days throwing rocks at Illiad's house. That was fun and they were having a great time. However, Divx proved he couldn't be trusted, and he mentioned his
Soon our intreped heros found themselves locked in the fifth dungeon beneath Nettwork Records' offices. A week of torture had they endured already, with nothing but the prospect of more. Tivo couldn't take it. He knew if he killed Divx, then they would all but HAVE to let him go. They told him. It was Divx they wanted, not him. He finally found a rock, and surruptiously slid it into his greedy hand. One crack on the base of the skull is all it would take . . .
Suddenly, the door burst open, and five executives stood there, all holding axes. "so, Mr. Divx, are you ready to surrender the
"you'll have to pry them off my cold dead corpse!" Divx screamed defiantly.
"Oh, believe me," the executive went on "we will. But first, your friend"
They pulled Tivo into the center of the room and held their axes aloft. Tivo screamed to god and his mother, but nothing could stop the rain of cold steel blades as they hacked his thrashing body into a pile of spare parts, continuing long after he had expired.
Goddamn canadians.
These are the step by step instructions:0 0-5.html
m l
/dev/ttyS3. Also you need to blank out the first few sectors on the new B drive, with this command: "dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hdX bs=512 count=32".
/dev/hdb". Then shut down your TiVo and hook the B drive back up to the Linux box.
/dev/hdX" and type in these commands:
/dev/hdX" and type these commands:
/dev/hda7 /mnt". Then run this to add the magic bit sequence to your new B drive: "/mnt/diag/genAddDiskTiVoID /dev/hdb3". Type "umount /mnt" to unmount that diagnostics partition, and reboot your TiVo. That should do it. Check the system information and see if your capacity increased. If not, you can try this one last thing that I don't believe is necessary, but it might be: mount the diagnostics partition again, and run "/mnt/diag/setkeys -globalkeys /dev/hdb".
I got them from:http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/0032
-K
Here's the post from: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/004437.ht
Here's how to add a B drive to your TiVo by "blessing" it. This is approximately how we did it. We've only done it a few times so far. We will be refining the process. We simply wanted to get the initial information out quickly.
This has only been verified to work on a few units so far. A HDR112 has been upgraded to 52 hours with a 30 gig Quantum, another HDR112 has been upgraded to 40 hours with a 20 gig Quantum, and a Sony 30 hour unit has been upgraded as well with a Maxtor B drive, although the newer Sony/Phillips units have a drive locking mechanism that makes it very hard to mount their A drives in a non-TiVo Linux box.
WARNING: This modification is not "easy". You take all responsibility for modifying your TiVo in this way. It does involve opening the case and breaking the warranty sticker. Do not call TiVo support if you make a mistake and break your TiVo. If you break it, you own both pieces. If you mess up, don't expect us to fix it for you either. Maybe some day someone will release a utility that will just bless a drive in 1 easy command on your PC, but at this point, it's pretty tricky. It requires that you have various technical knowledge about Linux and other software tools. You could easily render your TiVo inoperable and possibly unrecoverable.
WARNING 2: There hasn't been a lot of testing so far on this procedure of course. Mine seems to be working perfectly at 52 hours, but you must accept the risk that something bad may happen down the road. We suggest that you back up your original A drive in some fashion in case you make a mistake. How to do that we leave up to you.
PDISK DISCLAIMER: We had to modify the source code to pdisk. Use it at your own risk. There may be bugs. We're not responsible for any loss of data.
And PLEASE - be careful when you open the unit. It's power supply is unshielded. Stay away from it.
In short - if you don't _understand_ what is going on below, don't do it. Just being able to read a list of steps may not be enough at this point.
When I refer to hard drive partitions on the Linux box, I'll use hdX where X is whatever letter is appropriate for that drive.
I used a Quantum lct10 30 gig drive (part number QML30000LB-A) that I bought from www.onsale.com. My off the shelf Quantum seems to have the Quickview and TiVo extensions in it, perhaps they all do. It is the same drive used in HDR31202's and presumably the newer Sonys. Any drive may work as a B drive, but I've only tried my Quantum. Also be aware - the version of Linux on the TiVo doesn't seem to support drives larger than 33.8 gig. I don't know if TiVo patched their older kernel to support them. Set the B drive's jumper to slave.
You need to be able to access the original A drive and new B drive from another Linux box. To do this on an x86 box, you need to integrate TiVo's modifications to the Mac partition code. There are some patches on ftp://ftp.curry.org/pub/tivo, ftp://ftp.rotorway.org/incoming/tivo, and http://www.wasteland.org/tivo. Please, if anyone can mirror these few files it would be very helpful. If we get hit too hard, we'll have to take the files down. You also need to be able to turn on byte swapping for those 2 drives (hdX=bswap). I had the most luck with Linux 2.4.0-test1. You also need to enable the Mac partitioning in the kernel.
If that all works, you'll see the TiVo's partitions on the A drive hooked to your Linux box. There should be 11 of them. Mount partition 4 (hdX4) somewhere, it's an ext2 filesystem. Edit the bottom of etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit so it starts a bash shell on
Get the hard drives back in the TiVo (both of em) and hook up the DSS serial cable to your computer. You'll need a null modem adapter and gender changer at the minimum. The terminal settings are 9600,8N1. You should get a bash prompt shortly after the "please wait a few more seconds" screen. Run this command: "/sbin/bootpage -D
Now you need a modified version of pdisk which is available on the sites I mentioned above. Compile it if necessary (it's in RCS format). With the B drive in the Linux box, run "pdisk
i
w
y
q
Then run: "pdisk -d
C 2p 4M "Second MFS application region" MFS
C 3p 3p "Second MFS media region" MFS
x
m
3
x
w
y
q
That will create the new partitions. Shut down the Linux box now and mount the B drive in the TiVo permanently. Turn the TiVo back on and get into the bash shell on it again.
You need to mount the diagnostics partition next. Type this on your TiVo: "mount -t ext2 -o ro
That's it. If you want to now, you can edit the rc.sysinit to stop the bash shell from starting (or if you were smart, you made a backup copy when you started and can just copy the backup over the modified one).
Credit for figuring out this procedure goes to cc, Peter Creath, TivoTechie, and Ron Curry.
6/21/00
One day, you'll learn to watch what you post...
+1 Funny.
But seriously, why does management constantly put focused-point suction engineers in charge of the HVAC!
By Linux 7 do you mean Slack 7? The kernel isn't even on 3.0 yet! That's a great distro, though I am thinking of switching to debian because they seem a little bit more hacker-friendly (Slack is easy to compile programs in and all, but Debian seems to have more enthusiasm as to what I can contribute).
Eh...
With TiVO you have to pay a monthly fee to get their program guide listings. If someone came up with a good plan for a software package that would convince people to pay for listings, perhaps you could get some deal with TV Guide going (They bought prevue.)
Personally, I'm just planning to buy a TiVO (Why reinvent the wheel? It's only $500 anyway and it has a nice interface) but I can see how you could get a lot of linux types interested - Linux users tend to want to prove that linux is capable of doing anything and everything.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Another Question: Tivo has released thier patches to Linux kernel and other GNU utilities, but they are not releasing thier Tivo source code, right?
By the way, they have a $50 dollars off the $200 dollars life time subscription program ending the end of this month. You can get a serial number from one of the tivo advocate sites.
Lastly, a comment: First we saw i-opener being hacked, now that Tivo is getting hacked. I am not sure if this is a good thing for linux. It gives the industry an example: "Do anything with them Linux, you'd be hacked silly."
Of course we know that it isn't that simple, but not many people understand it.
I am actually a bit more of a BSD person at heart. Slack was my first real jump into Linux, but I have a good deal more experience with actual Unix Sys V, BSD, and that ilk as well. I've tinkered with Debian. I just think that they, like the BSD projects, are a bit more in what I have to offer them, since I really never heard a "Yeah, you can help us with this" from good ole Pat V.
Eh...
Let's see if my brand new $500 WinCE handheld can run Linux! Why? What can it possibly be useful for? Who cares, it runs Linux! Let's see if my $499 TiVO can play MP3s! But it's supposed to be a VCR. Who cares, now I can play music with it (which I could've done with a $100 Pentium 90!) Let's use my digital camera as a backup device! Let's try telnetting from my Palm Pilot! Let's take the engine out of my car and convert it into a fucking house!
Use the right tool for the job, people. Don't melt a hammer down and turn it into a screwdriver.
Of course, this is just my viewpoint.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Bzzzt. Thanks for playing. This variety of hacking is perfectly legitimate. One day the L^Husers of the world will no the difference between hacking (aka cracking) and hacking (aka hacking). And it seems that your consulting business is better off in a world of terrified customers lining up to use your services. Linux will NEVER have an unsullied image in the world of the suits just as the suits are generally regarded with repugnance by most computer geeks (until they devolve into suits.) Boycott Coke, McDonalds, Disney, the lot!
:wq