Girls Don't Want To Be Geeks

Silas writes "According to a new study by the American Association of University Women, highlighted in this AP article, 'Girls have the ability to learn and use computers, but they are turned off by technical careers that they view as full of geeky guys'. The study blames the general sentiment on a gender imbalance in access to computers, and on social pressures that steer girls away from technology. What say you, women of the Slashdot population?" Stand up and shout on this one, ladies. I think that it takes a special breed of person to be attracted to this line of work, not necessarily a specific gender. Tell us what you think.

Comments

I accuse my parents...

[nano-second]

While your observation might be entirely valid, I don't think it has much to do with the capability of a particular gender.
Most parents, unintentionally, will treat their children differently based on their preconcieved notions of that gender. It is most likely very unconcious, but it happens. It is this social conditioning that I think really creates the disparity in technology careers. By the time girls (and boys) first reach school, these concepts are already programmed in. It doesn't just affect interest in math/science/comp.sci... but that is one effect.
(For example, in the average grade 1 class, most girls are much better with "fine motor skills"... they can use scissors much more effectively than the average boy. This is likely because boys are encouraged to play outside more often when they are young.)

These sort of seemingly trivial differences end up affecting how girls view math and science, and they are less likely to pursue those topics in high school and university. It becomes a vicious circle, because there are few women in these fields, there are fewer role models.
---

We make grrls feel stupid

[billcopc]

My S.O. could testify for this : when we geek guys unleash our techspeak, we just make any non-geek feel stupid and ignorant, both men and women. Now don't start tossing eggs in my direction, I don't sit on these stereotypes but I will use them simply to expose my theory.

Now the problem might stem from the common observation that men are typically better with pure logic and can usually figure the stuff out with a few well placed questions ("So you're saying this CPU thing is like the carburator ?"). Anyways, in contrast, women seem to have (in general) much more difficulty in relating abstract concepts to more physical/familiar counterparts; they're more confortable sticking with purely abstract things, not crossing over with metaphores and real-life examples.

Let's take our favored example : Math. I'd have to say that 90% of all women I've known totally suck at math, yes even my geek mother. It's a very exhausting experience watching my gf do her math homework, mainly because she asks me more questions than she has to answer. How hard can it be to understand that a trapezoid is really just a square + 2 triangles ? I must have spent the whole afternoon shoving some spatial sense into her head.

Anyways, PC's are prime applications of this abstract-to-concrete train of thought. We have small rectangular icons we call "objects". They're not the objects like coke cans, or long-range throwable desk phones.. but if you can look beyond the physical aspect, the computer representation of an object is right on par with the real-life object. This is the key analogy that most female specimens seem to have trouble with. I'm not saying they're too stupid to figure it out, because the ones who persevere DO end up grokking the goods, but it's a relatively long process for women, at least from my personal observations. IMHO, women who have difficulty with this type of symmetric thinking are the ones who shy away from technical jobs because they have more trouble deriving solutions when faced with unexpected hurdles.

Another thing I've noticed is not necessarily the hostility of non-geeks vs geeks, but more importantly the reverse situation. Intellectual, technical types such as myself look upon the rest of the crowd as somewhat ignorant and pointless. Spending a day without thinking, without creating.. that's a wasted day to me.

My gf throws a small fit whenever I spend more than 10 seconds at the keyboard when she's around, which usually results in her being totally ignored for a few hours to pressure her. It's a natural reaction to her hostility toward my career, and I'm sure it gives her a bad impression of the type of people I work with. We're all highly focused tech-gods, each trying to prove him/herself right and the other person wrong. This holds for "geek girls" as well. We have a spoonful of them here, and they're a bunch of sore-tempered perfectionists. Now quite frankly, I'd rather have a dumb but sociable assistant, than these long-haired psychos. Anyone who knows a true geek girl will agree with me that they're independent, stubborn, and aggressive. Just like us guys. The problem is that this behavior may be expected in men, but most managers just don't know how to handle it in women. The workplace is such a gender-centric environment. I'm one of two tech guys transplanted into a human resources department, and wouldn't you know, we're the only guys on the whole floor. Managers hire along certain gender patterns, and people apply for work along similar patterns as well. All these things are slowly changing with the implementation of a gender equity process, but for the time being, every single department is dominated either by men or women. And gender favoritism set aside, there will always be more guys in tinkering work and more women in paperwork. That's just what we each do best.

I'd believe them, except that...

[Brento]

it can't be social pressures steering girls away from technology, because frankly, social pressures steer GUYS away from technology too! I mean, really, football is a lot more popular than chess club, and the social pressure is always on in school to perform athletically. It's no different for girls than it is for us guys.

Gender Imbalance....WTF?

[Carnage4Life]

Why is it that people always feel that everything has to fit according to statistics or all is not well. Gender imbalance reminds me a lot of the so called Digital Divide...lots of liberal middle class whites who feel that the poor underclass must be forced to be as technically inclined as they are. Frankly, I'm black and I have lived amongst and known black people all my life, and being computer savvy is not high on the average black person's to-do list. No amount of government intervention is going to turn the average poor black person into some cybersurfing, net junkie simply to balance some statistic chart.

Back to the topic at hand, why is it that people feel the need to try to push girls into technical careers? From my experience most females including the ones that are good at Math (both my last two girlfriends got A's in Calculus II but one's an English major while the other is studying criminal justice) do not like technical fields. Frankly the crap about gender imbalance to access computers is a load of bull, this isn't the fifties when women couldn't eat without a man supporting them...any woman worth her salt can get a job and buy a PC or go to the library. The last time I checked the neither CompUSA nor BestBuy was discriminating according to sex. Also, the article describes negative social pressure for women to get into technology, but fails to mention that until the Internet boom of a few short years ago there was negative social pressure for men to get into technology as well. I remember being teased and taunted for being a computer geek while in school and even when I grew older I was still looked upon by others with disdain, off course being uninterested in sports probably didn't help this.


PS: I am very tired of self righteous people who want to mold the world in their own image. Women don't like technical fields, so what? Men don't flock towards positions in elder care, nursing or child care yet I don't see articles bemoaning this.

Re:Gender Imbalance....WTF?

[drix]

Jesus Christ, amen to that. If women aren't flocking in droves to technical fields, perhaps it is because they don't want to. I'm consistently amazed at how often this simple point it just overlooked by some self-righteous feminazi with an axe to grind. These fools acts as if thirty years of conscious gender equalization did nothing to level the playing field. Well, guess what, it did. People can carp about the "glass ceiling" all they want, but the fact of the matter is that there are basically no barriers to female employment anymore in many fields. Hell, most companies strive to have female execs, just to curry goodwill in the eye of the public. This is just so especially true in computer fields, where the emphasis has always been on what you produce and not who you are, what you look like, or whether you have a penis. So this whole argument about a "tech fraternity" or woman being somehow excluded is just total bullshit. Almost all of my highly nerdly friends are guys. Do I know why? No. But it's not like I don't know a hundred girls who had the exact same education as we did, came from the exact same socioeconomic background as us, and simply chose to do other things with their time. Because I do. They went on to become doctors, lawyers, whatever. The thing to notice here is that they were never discouraged from choosing a tech field. They. Just. Didn't. No one really stops to consider they maybe men and women are just wired differently, despite the fact that they obviously are. I'm not saying that women are any less smart than men in tech fields, I'm just saying that something inside their heads makes them less interested in it. I think it's rather pointless to try, in vain, to change this.

--

The 'Coolness' Factor

[Knunov]

I've had a rather bizarre life. I was a lifeguard in high school, a jock AND a lifeguard in college, and am now a network engineer in 'real' life.

I still look basically the same. 6' 1", 210 athletic pounds, dark blonde hair, blue eyes. The anti-geek. But when I was lifeguarding and in college, I picked up WAY more girls than I do now, even though I am exposed to just as many.

My personality is basically the same, but that twinkle in my eye and uncontrollable grin that takes over my face when I talk about encryption or compression or alternative operating systems seems to be a genuine turn-off to girls.

I don't know if they are intimidated by me because they don't understand what I'm saying or they are simply assuming that I'm a geek at heart (which I am) underneath my athletic frame.

Girls are taught that geeks are not desirable men. Here on /. and in the IT world we throw the term around affectionately, but you must realize that most of the world isn't in our circle and in THEIR world, a geek is not a good thing to be.

I don't wear glasses. I'm not fat. I don't shoot milk out of my nose when I laugh. Well... I *usually* don't...

But once girls find out what I do, I'm suddenly a geek.

I think society's perception will change in time as the IT profession becomes more and more important. Network engineering will one day be thought as 'cool' of a job as being a lawyer or doctor.

The upper echelon (top 15% or so) already makes the same amount or more money than the other 'prestigious' professions. Respect will come in time, I think.

Many people are already dismissing the 'geek' notion just because someone is into computers. But even more are clinging onto the stereotype. People in my company can't even comprehend why I make 2x to 3x more than they do. Sometimes I feel like handing them a keyboard and saying, "If it's so easy, YOU do it."

If they really get to you, just do what I do. Hack into their home machines and leave a "y00 h4v3 ju$7 b33n h4xx0r1z3d bi 4 31337 h4xx0r d00d. $$$$$$$$$ EZ $$$$$$$$" message on their screen.

They'll be your best friend the next day :)

Remember, you aren't getting paid big bucks for what you know. You're getting paid for what the rest of the world doesn't know.



Knunov

OOG TELL SECRET TO GETTING CHICKS!!!

[OOG_THE_CAVEMAN]

OOG NO NEED READ ALL THIS NONSENSE ABOUT GEEK GIRLS ON SLASHDOT!!! THAT WHAT OOG FAVORITE PORN SITES FOR ANYWAY!!! BUT SINCE SO MANY POSTERS SEEM NOT TO KNOW SHIT ABOUT WOMEN, OOG THE CAVE PIMP DIVULGE HIS KNOWLEDGE OF GETTING SWEET CAVE LOVING!!!

OOG READ POSTS HERE AND STARTLED ABOUT PEOPLE HERE WONDERING WHY THEY CANT FIND GIRLS!!! OOG KNOW NO WORTHWHILE GIRL COULD STAND OBNOXIOUS PSEUDO INTELLECTUALISM OF MANY POSTERS HERE!!! SO MANY SLASHDOT PEOPLE KNOW-IT-ALLS, KARMA WHORES, ELITISTS, ETC!!! IF YOU LIKE THIS IN REAL LIFE, NO WONDER PEOPLE NO LIKE GEEKS!!! PERHAPS LEAVE MONITOR, CLOSE PROGRAMMING WINDOW, AND LEARN ABOUT REAL LIFE!!! AFTER ALL, OOG NEVER GO NEAR GEEK CAVE WOMAN BECAUSE OOG CANT STAND SUCH ONE DIMENSIONAL MENTALITY!!!

OOG ALSO NOTICE HOW CERTAIN PEOPLE USE GENDER STORIES AS WINDOW TO START BRAGGING ABOUT CONQUESTS AND TRY ONE UP PEOPLE!!! GUESS WHAT, OOG CLUB MORE CAVE WOMEN AND DRAG HOME TO CAVE THAN YOU HAVE KARMA POINTS!!! BESIDES, NOBODY CARE ABOUT YOUR LITTLE BRAGGING STORIES!!! OOG BET YOU ONLY GET RELATIONSHIP BY SETTLING FOR UNATTRACTIVE CAVE WOMAN!!!
IF YOU WANT ADVICE ON WOMEN, OOG HAVE THIS TO SAY: CLUB WOMAN AND BRING HOME TO CAVE!!! IF THAT FAIL, GET CAVE WOMAN DRUNK ON CAVE BEER AND HIGH ON CAVE WEED!!! THAT NEVER FAIL!!!

Re:My own (vicarious) experience...

[bridgette]

There dosen't *have* to be a 50/50 split in everything but there are a couple of good reasons why some people are trying to encourage woment to persue sciences:

1) On average, women make less money than men. This is mostly because of carrer choice. Tech jobs can pay very well. Some people feel that gender pay inequality is bad for society in general - contibuting to the childhood poverty rate and such. Some people feel that as long as women have second class finacial status, they will have second class political and social status. Personally, I tend to feel that everyone should have an equal chance to take care for themselves financally and feel these these efforsts help remove barriers.

2) We could use more tech workers and women are an 'untapped resource'. With all the companies lobbying to increase the number of visas, it only makes sence to spend some effort in genreating more applicants at home.

3) Having people from diverse backgrounds working on design and problem solving often yields better results.

4) People already in the industry (both male and female) would, all other things being equal, enjoy having some more women in the office.

I want to be a geek.

[heidiporn]

I think I may be one of the few chicks to answer thus far, and I hesitate because I'm probably not as qualified as most to answer this, as I am not currently a full-fledged geekchick, though I hope to be someday.

A friend sent me an article once - I think it may have even been posted on /. - about why a lot of girls don't become programmers. It offered up the notion that most girls are reared not to obsess over how and why things work but, rather, over their social relationships.

In an era when it is cooler than ever before to be a dork-guy, when guys who run internet startups are sought after for their bank accounts and their geeky sensuality :), I'm afraid it is still not cool to be a geeky chick. I think this owes itself at least in part to the fact that there are currently so few (relatively speaking).

The geek-chick bandwagon does not yet exist, so it is hard for even those who desire to immerse themselves in all-things-geeky to jump on...

Girls, ladies, women, chicks, babes, broads, pieces-o'-ass or whatever you want to call them are taught to nurture relationships. Doing so inhibits their ability to sit in front of a computer all day and pore over code or read /. A lot of women don't see overclocking a 1 GHz Thunderbird in mineral oil or soddering or disassembling some piece of electronic equipment, rewiring it, and then reassembling it or sitting in front of a computer screen for hours and hours a day as valid, socially acceptable ways to spend their time. For many women, it is a better use of time to spend time with friends, talk, position themselves in a career where they can work with people, rear their children, or involve themselves in charity work. (Don't get me wrong; these are all noble things.)

Moreover, in an effort to support their social relationships, girls (and the eventual women they become) learn they are supposed to worry about grooming, going out, shopping for the latest trends, decorating their homes, hosting dinner parties, caring for their kids (even in a two-career family), and so on.

I know this is fairly incoherent, and I apologize... I wish I were expressing myself better... because I am very passionate about this issue. I am a chick, and I am a dork, and I am proud to be both.

To sum up that which I have spent several paragraphs babbling about: It's still not cool to be a geek-chick. I hope one day it will be, as I am one of the few, the proud, the sexy :) who aspires to be one. :)

-heidiporn :)

Computergrrrl vs. The Man

[Frymaster]

I must relate the recent tale of woe that has befallen my beloved.

Act One: Computergrrrl meets the patriarchy
Computergrrrl has been a geek of many stripes for most of her life. About 2 yrs ago, she decided to actually pursue computer programming at school. She went, saw and conquered, and with her freshly-minted diploma in hand, landed a job at an internet startup. Her job description was titled "junior programmer". The immediate reality, however, was different. This company made two hires in the same week, both fresh grads; one was computergrrrl, the other was a boy who we'll call Rob (well, that's his name). Rob was plopped down at a desk in the "back room" and set to work on ASP stuff immediately. Computergrrrl was plopped down at the reception desk and told to answer the phones and compile a list of office supplies. When computergrrrl pointed out to her new employers that she had no secreatrial training whatsoever, she was told that she should find "it came naturally" and that they "couldn't possible have one of the guys do reception"

Act Two: Geeks ride to the rescue
This company is divided into two layers. Business guys who have the money and call the shots, and coders who write the product (service?) and get free pop. After a few days, the "head coder" who we'll call Gord (well, that's his name) started to realize what was going on. At the end of a week, he confronted the owners and told them that they were denying him a valuable resource (computergrrrl) and that this "misallocation of talent"(his quote) was unacceptable. The owners hummed and hawed over transferring her, finally prompting gord to ask them why they had chosen to hire a woman in the first place, if they really felt her gender precluded her from doing her job. The answer: "We figgured she could do the reception work and help you out with little things in her spare time."

Act Three: making a loooong story short(er)
The ultimate compromise, was that computergrrrl was moved to web design (it's artsy! girls are good at artsy!) and, over time, into some backend coding (computergrrrl to owners "java is a new language. I have a talent for languages." language=artsy.)

The long-awaited moral of the story
Geeks tend to work on a merit-ocracy. You're judged on your chops, not your sex, race, religion (unless it's linux) etc. Sadly, a lot of the hire decisions are made by the money people. They can't tell good code from bad code (hmmm. I can't decipher it. It must be a good code...) and tend to have more "traditional" views of women in the work place. If you're a girl and you're a geek, find a boss who's into computers more than s/he's into money.

thank you for your patience.

Hello?! Did Anybody Read This Sentence?

[Seumas]

turned off by technical careers that they view as full of geeky guys

The problem, then, is that we're the same guys that they didn't want to go out with in highschool and didn't want to sit next to at lunch.

Assuming the line of this statement, I am lead to understand that if the industry was full of handsome, athletic jock guys, they would have no problem?

Further, what does 'geeky guys' have to do with a career? Either you like the technical side of life or you don't. What next? "Gee, I don't want to work in the technical fields because of all those foreigners..."?

If anyone is so nearsighted that they'd give up something they're interested in because they don't like the class of people that are already in that field, then maybe they should stay far away in the first place and go find a job where they can gawk at men with firm white asses as they walk by the Sam Goody's in the mall.

I'm a bit geeky. I was also a very successful jock. I'm a young white male. I work with great people. I work with a lot of talented men and women of all ages, backgrounds, educations and ethnicities. If nothing else, the people in this industry are a reason to want to work in it, not shy away from it.

---
seumas.com

Computers not just for boys?

[Krystalia]

What makes it hard for me, as a women in the technology field, is that my parents tried to steer me away from computers and tried to steer my brother towards them. It happened to turn out the exact opposite... i love computers just as much as the next guy, but when the people that you are supposed to listen to tell you that girls shouldn't play with computers, it makes it harder for us to get into that stuff. Lucky for me, in high school i happened to get involved with the Computer Club by accident and totally fell in love. All my friends turned out to be guys, "geeks", who love computers and taught me so much, even got me into using linux. I don't think all women/girls get as lucky as i did and fall in with the right crowd.

It's almost as if it's taboo to be a girl who like computers, at least where i live. I was the only girl in the computer club, I was also the only girl really willing to get involved and learn things. Sometimes i feel really inferior compared to the males, it's almost as if they treat my like i'm stupid because i'm a girl... though i try harder then most of them to learn things...

I think parents need to encourage both girls and boys equally. That would be the first step in getting more females interested and it could start to even the playing field.

Just my two cents :)
Krys

Re:If i was a girl....

[Chaosnymph]

I guess it depends on the geeks. If you've got to be around teenage guys, I think the geeks are certainly better than the alternatives.

Maybe what we really need is for the media to just portray geeks in a better light and feature them in afternoon specials or whatever kids are watching these days.

I dated a bunch of geeks in high school and they were all sweet, polite, intelligent, and a lot of fun. They also seemed likely to want to spend the evening talking or doing something fun and frivolous (contrasting, it seems, to many guys who were only interested in sex.)

And certainly when trying to date, a 5 to 1 ratio is not a bad thing: at least from the 1 side ;-) Even if there are a few that that aren't yet ready for that level of social interaction, you've probably got your pick (and the rest are usually pretty trainable). I don't think any of my fellow female geeks ever had trouble finding dates. And we used to just laugh at the various complaints of the others about insensitive guys who never called.

Ah, well, perceptions can be so important. Maybe we need to start a date-a-geek campaign.

Maybe if we lure the young ones into math clubs and computer teams with thoughts of dating they'll fnd that the subject matter is pretty interesting too. I can just see the posters in the halls:

Join the math team - 5 guys to every girl

Need a prom date? Come to the next chess club meeting.

Or maybe I'm just getting a little silly now. :-)

Chaosnymph - (who recommends geeks to all her friends)

My own (vicarious) experience...

[softsign]

I took an introductory psych course this year taught by a moderate feminist prof.

One day in class she was lecturing on gender bias in the elementary school system and how girls/women are discouraged from careers in science and engineering because teachers have this preconception that boys are better (and subsequently devote more time to them).

At one point, she stopped and we listened to this girl in class describe how she, personally, had experienced this phenomenon in her gr. 5 class and that because of this, she was no longer capable of doing well in mathematics courses.

Well, during this whole sob story, one of my best friends was sitting right next to me, snickering. She later recounted to me her own experience in high school: her gr. 13 physics teacher had laughed in her face when she told him her post-secondary plans. Electrical Engineering. He told her then rather dubiously to come and visit when she got her degree.

She's planning a visit in six weeks.

WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A 50/50 SPLIT IN EVERYTHING? Is it not possible that some women just aren't as interested in some things as some men are? And vice versa? Why do we need to engineer our society to be perfectly symmetrical?

Somebody please give me a good answer to this. Explain to me why.

--

Maybe it's a technology thing?

[bildstorm]

Is it because girls ar more sociable? I mean, guys tend to tinker with things, like cars, VCRs, stereos, computers, etc. It's almost a given that if I give an object to a little boy or a little girl, the boy will try to take it apart, and the girl will try to use it.

I realise this is massive gender stereotyping, but perhaps the majority of girls aren't interested in socially-deprived isolated activities like staring at code for hours?

Re:Maybe it's a technology thing?

[Spudly]

I have found that many geek guys know all too well that they are smart - and it's true, many of them are more intelligent than the average person. Trouble is, they let ppl know about it.
And I've seen it happen time and again: the geek get's up on his mountain top to show everyone he's the king and knows everything. And that just turns anyone (not just girls) away faster than
greem stuff between your teeth.
(unless you happen to have a faster processor, more RAM and a bigger HD - "birds of a feather flock together")

Also, I've come across many geek guys that just haven't grown up - they're still playing computer games at 30. Girls mature faster than guys, guys laaaaaaaaaag behind signicantly until late teens (so I'm told) - but some guys just don't seem to break the teen-male mentality. I've spoken to many girls who just take one look at a geek guy and see a child...

I won't start on personal hygiene, because that is something every geek must get together - for the sake of his friends and especially those of the opposite sex.

-Spud.

There are two genders, folks, not one.

[Eil]

I think the problem here is that people aren't yet understanding that the two genders in our society are not the same. They have different behaviors (in general), and are interested in different things. Does this mean that one sex is obviously better or superior? Of course not. Does this mean that women aren't capable of some of things men are generally more proficient at (such as programming) or vice versa? Don't be absurd.

My point is that females are just different than males. Just what is so wrong with *most* women not liking the same things as men? Trying to figure out *why* this is the case is irrelevant, and so far it's leading to a whole slew of stupid assumptions in this thread, since it's fairly obvious that it won't change a whole lot in the near future.

I see nothing wrong with trying to introduce females (and maybe more males) to technology, computers, and programming. But specifically trying to recruit more women into computer technology fields simply because the male/female ratio isn't balanced is just plain ignorant. It's exactly the same as pushing more females to become NASCAR drivers or encouraging males to do cheerleading in highschool. And if I don't keep repeating this, some troll is going to flame me: This doesn't mean that [gender] can't do [activity], it just means that most [gender] aren't interested in [activity].

Miranda and Ki

[Chiasmus_]

I've actually heard from guys who have pinups of Miranda (User Friendly) and Ki (GPF Comics) on their walls. In fact, many of us would like nothing more than a girlfriend who could actually code. Sadly, I know of only two females who can write anything more impressive than basic HTML. (Before I get angry responses, I openly acknowledge that I do not know everyone in the world.)

I wonder why it is that girls don't go for guys in IT. Sure, the occasional one of us is a fat slob or turbo-nerd, but I don't think those subsets are in the majority. And, we tend to have more money than the average Joe Six Pack, which is supposed to be attractive (according to the Discovery Channel, because it signals the women that we're more apt to provide for their young).

So, what's up? Why do the women keep flocking to the high-power lawyers (which is just as non-physical, academic a job as programmer), while neglecting us? What the hell is going on?

Re:Miranda and Ki

[linuxonceleron]

AFAIK, Most lawyers drive a BMW 750iL and socialize at a country club, wear designer clothes, have nice furniture. These are accepted as symbols of wealth. Your average geek is more likely to drive a reasonable car, and spend his money on computers/electronics and all. To a woman, the nice car and furniture is more appealing than a Sony ES home theatre system and a Dual PIII 933. But as far as women not becoming geeks themselves, I don't know, there probably are, we just don't notice them or something.

Trolling For Babes.

[istartedi]

Somebody had to say it.

Our Sad Technical Frat

[drs]

I think the attitudes of the people in this discussion show us exactly why the "ladies" and "girls" often don't start into technical careers. Its a system that feeds on itself.

And the salary ceiling that women hit in technical fields if they don't move into project management or sales isn't much of a positive incentive either.

It's unfortunate because when your whole company is made of 25-35 year old straight white males (like mine), you are naturally going to have a limited number of approaches to a given problem. Divesity is a real benefit. Too bad we don't get more of it.

Don't give me that..

[knghtbrd]

Arguably I have little room to talk given that the last time I looked I was male, but this so-called gender gap in technology is a joke. YES there are men in this field, there are men in lots of fields. Yes (especially places like irc) anyone known to be female joining an irc channel is going to get a bit of crap from a few of the males there who are young, hormonal, and can't seem to behave themselves. That sort of thing is going to happen anywhere and it doesn't just happen to women because they're women. It happens to people in general because they're not the same. This is a very sad thing, but it happens in every field and everyone is going to face some form of social discrimination at some point, usually over something as pointless as their sex. The same applies for age, nationality, school or experience background, appearance, social class...

While it is true that discrimination happens, this has the feel of someone feeling that someone set out to prove there's inequality for the sexes in technology. Look hard enough for something and you'll find it. This story doesn't deal with schools being harder on female students or employers disregarding apps because of the sex of the applicant.. No, this is a study saying that because there aren't enough females in technology, there aren't enough females in technology. Give me a break! I don't believe in effects causing themselves - especially when it comes to people. As a species, humanity is more stubborn than that. And the half a dozen female geeks I know seem to indicate this to be true. They don't care if the industry is populated by men - geeks are what they are and the "geek lifestyle"(?) is the one they've chosen.

I encourage any woman who wants to go into technology and has even a shred of self-respect to do it. If they meet resistance, keep fighting. I feel I was just about born a geek and I wouldn't let anyone in the world take that away from me - they shouldn't either.

Girls don't watch the Man Show or play Football

[AtariDatacenter]

So the majority of girls don't want to watch the Man Show, or to play Football. (Yes, there are exceptions.) The reason probably isn't so much that they are male dominated. Perhaps women aren't as interested in computers because the male domination has steered everything in a direction that they are really not interested in. Ever thought how modern computing would be different if it was women dominated by the start?

some truth to it...

[Brave Little Toaster]

'Girls have the ability to learn and use computers, but they are turned off by technical careers that they view as full of geeky guys'.

This really does depend on which girls you talk to. If it's teeny-boppers who love Britteny Spears and who care lots about what other people think, then yes, they will be concerned about working with 'geeky guys.'

If, however, you talk to a more independently minded young woman, she is more likely to give real reasons besides cooties for not wanting to persue a tech-related field.

The study blames the general sentiment on a gender imbalance in access to computers, and on social pressures that steer girls away from technology.

Now, this I buy. Generally speaking, schools do not do a good job of encouraging our girls to get into science and technology. This has improved in recent times, but there is still a long way to go. Parents also don't always do a good job of encouraging girls to try out computers. In fact, some unwittingly discourage them. (I continually thank my mother for giving me legos instead of an easy bake oven when I was a kid.)

And never underestimate the social pressures women face in the workplace. Not every person can deal with sexist attitudes that many women encounter in tech-related jobs, and so some women choose not to deal with it and persue other careers. While I think this is sad, I personally know two women who left the computer science field because of sexism and other social pressures they continually faced from their peers. It does happen.

Nevertheless, there are many women such as myself who love computers, technology and science, and who thrive on working with geeky people. In fact, for me it's a requirement...

--
brave little toaster

--

Grrls don't wanna be geeks.

[small_dick]

[to the tune of Cyndi Lauper's "Girls Just Want To Have Fun"]

she won't stare at the monitor's light
society says "don't you wanna hack all night?"
we just don't care about zeros and ones
and grrls, don't wanna be geeks
no, grrls don't wanna be geeks.

lasted three days in a programming class
those "for loops" and "call stacks" really kicked my teen ass
just can't log into those x-terminals
and grrls don't wanna be geeks
no, grrls don't wanna be geeks.

not what they want, not a geek,
let the boys balance red-black trees,
cuz grrls don't wanna be geeks.
no, grrls, don't wanna be geeks.

they don't wanna, they don't wanna,
they don't wanna, they don't wanna,
grrls, oh, grrls, don't wanna be geeks.

I took a LOT of flak for being a geek in school

[knghtbrd]

I think 2/3 of the geeks here can attest similar results. In fact, every time someone tries to ask a young woman if she really wants to go into technology, there's someone beating the crap out of a young man for being a geek. I won't speculate which is worse, but the fact is that schools---at least American schools---favor athletics over intellectuals. As I noted in another message, there's no gender gap or sexism there - just different measures to discourage the intelligent from being so.

Girls can't do math...

[g33kch1ck]

The article seems inherently flawed to me. For one, it's statistical fact that not many people are entering computer science programs, no matter their gender. The biggest flaw, however, seems to be that the University Chicks were asking high school kids what they wanted to do with their lives. Now that's fucking brilliant. I'm going to be 27 this year, and I've only recently figured out in which ball park my career will reside, much less nailed down the specifics... I've gone from a dual major in English and Journalism, right out of high school, to Computer and Information Sciences and Information Design. There is a difference between the two. Asking an 18-year-old child what she wants to do With The Rest of Her Life is the stupidest of grounds upon which to found a study, in my opinion. The fact is simply that being a geek is a life style, not a career choice. It takes a special breed of HUMAN, male or female, to be a geek. If the University Chicks are upset by their stats, the realization should follow that more people should be recruited for technology careers, not just more women. As for the statement, "they are turned off by technical careers that they view as full of geeky guys," I can only retort that I wouldn't want to date anyone with whom I couldn't discuss the things that interest me. At the risk of practicing age discrimination, I'll ask how many high school aged girls know what the hell they're looking for in partners? I know when I was 18, I dated a drastically different kind of boy than the man I am with now. Incidentally, he's a hell of a lot prettier than the non-geeky guys I dated then, too. Frankly, most of the quotes in the article seem to come from girls who are probably great until they open their mouths and ruin the effect. "I don't want to take computer science. ... Just looking at it, all the programming and these funny-looking things on the paper. It (takes) so much stuff to do one thing on the computer." This girl is, in effect, saying, "Math is hard." I'd like to know how well this female did in school over all. The socialization issue warrants further study. Female children are not taught they may manipulate their environments, and some studies link this rearing style to female difficulties in math. If little Jimmy is running through the house and breaks something, boys will be boys. If little Jenny does it, she's being unlady-ish. Still, this issue speaks to a larger socialization issue, and only reflects on the technology industry in the same way it would reflect on any other industry: all PEOPLE should be raised equally. But what do I know? I'm just a poor, helpless girl.

definition of geek.

[the_v]

When I was younger geek seemed to be a word that was used to describe people with an extreme interest in anything (ex. soccer geek)...

but now it seems that definition has been applied to guys who like computers.. emphasis on _guys_..

It seems that if a girl has an interest in computers, she's singled out as a _geek girl_

girls don't seem to be included in the new definition of geek...

For a while I had a problem with this.. being a member of the female population with a major interest in computer engineering I felt a little put off...

The last thing I wanted was feel excluded from my feild of interest because of my gender... I didn't want to be singled out either..

So I decided to forget about the whole thing until I realized that there was no good reason for it...

Now that I've gotten passed the initial batch of "girls can't be geeks" guys and I've met some really cool people, male and female, who don't have these prejudices and now I get to work on some neat stuff.

Focus

[tarka69]

My girlfriend and I had a discussion about this last week. It got a bit heated (wine was involved :), but in the end there was one main thing we agreed on: while men and women may be capable of the same things, men often go further because of focus.

It's one thing to have a talent for something. But to to truly master a field requires a certain amount of mono-mania. This is what makes true masters of their art what they are. It's also what makes many geeks insufferable people to deal with.

Slashdot as a reflection of the geek community

[zorba]

The people trolling this story are the same ones that cause females to turn away from technical careers. Even if a female is inclined to technical pursuits, she has a powerful reason not to, when the technical field is filled with sexist, insecure, and socially incoherent people.
A male has to deal with social pressure from outside the geek community, but within the community, there is support and like minded people. I'm generalising here, but a female has to deal with harrassment from both inside the community and without, and for most of them, it just isn't worth it. I have a tremendous respect for females in technical fields, because they have to deal with social difficulties on two fronts.
In other words, don't treat female geeks as aberrations, prospective geek wives, or otherworldly creatures... treat them as fellow geeks.