Slashdot Mirror
Simulating Life On The Red Planet
Cybernetic Wolf writes: "The Mars Society has just finished building the Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station in the Canadian Arctic. The station has been built to simulate what life on Mars will be like for future astronauts. This is a really cool first step in getting humans closer to colonizing other planets. There is a webcam and video of them as well."
Isn't this just the set for Big Brother 2001?
Kevin Fox
Kevin Fox
The very reason we keep going to MArs is that we do not know what life on Mars is like. How then can the MArs society caim to simulate life on mars? I think this is nothing more than a publicity stunt( caant even be called training as the people in the dome are not the ones going to MArs anyway) to drum up support for Mars exploration in which case I support it completely as I am a strong believer that we have to go to other planets if Mankind is to fulfill its destiny But even if the cause is noble I think its a bit flashy to make unsubstantiated claims . It might backfire and Congress might even cut funding by saying if we can simulate it we dont need to go....
**Life is too short to be serious**
And now, curtesy of slashdot, they also get a simulated attack on their internet connection.
(Apparently this was a problem with MIR and some shuttle missions - their communications getting DOSed at a critical point. Luckily NASA are good at building redundant systems)
this would be a "cool first step" in contrast with, for instance, sputnik, or the moon landing, or 1,001 other geek in space happenings over the past thirty and more years?
Now, I realize I'm just one person, but a lot of people are going to be thinking the same thing. Few people would want to move to Mars until life on Mars becomes normal and comfortable -- and living conditions on Mars won't improve until more people arrive. It's a classic Catch-22 situation; and I honestly don't see extraplanetary settlement appealing to anyone except a few fringe groups or the inevitable "early adopters." There's also a lot of other factors to consider: Who will make the laws on Mars? What language(s) will be spoken? Will Mars be a colony of some Earth-based country, sparking a resurrection in colonialism? Or could we make Mars an international territory for the betterment of civilization?
Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do if you could leave on a space shuttle for Mars tomorrow. Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock? I think not.
All this talk about colonizing planets hearkens back to the Space Race days of the 1950's and 1960's when everyone was raving about how the future will bring cities on the moon. It's 2000 and I still don't see those cities. Granted the concept of a simulator is intriguing, but that is the farthest humankind will get. It's just no feasible or realistic to expect to colonize other planets.
First of all, what is the need of settling Mars, if not to satisfy the ego of 21st century manifest destiny? Earth has its overpopulation and resource problems, but we are still safely far from the brink of those issues. Besides, is this a way of abandoning hope? Earth is gonna be gone, so lets try another planet? Absurd!
Any efforts to bring large scale colonization on Mars would be prohibitively complicated, time consuming and expensive. Even if habitation is possible, there will definitely need to be some way for man to prepare for colonies and deal with such issues as temperature and air composition. It's not as simple as fly in spaceships and build a new world. The costs of settling and transporting people to Mars en masse would be exhorbitant. Maybe 10-20 people can fit on a space shuttle, and those trips cost billions and take months to prepare, as shown by NASA's adventures. It definitely wont happen on a large scale.
It's a good idea, scientists, but why waste effort on idealistic dreams of settling other planets? I'd rather see our great scientific minds work to fix the growing shortage of resources here on Earth.
Emerson Willowick: Thinker, Writer, Human Being.
Things were looking grim there for a while, when the fifth air-drop failed and crunched up the floor pieces and some of the equipment (and let's skip the obvious "simulating NASA-based Mars mission" jokes), but they still managed to put things together; cool!
"I'm a scientist! I don't think, I observe!" - Dr. Clayton Forrester
"July 11: Devon Island Dangers Find out why shotgun training is mandatory." video
Man, the People Eating Tasty Animals group sure is going to be all over this one...
#Haha, I just made a funny =)
Slashdot - Better living through moderation
I wonder if they would send the criminals other planets maybe all the MPAA and RIAA could be sent
It seems that although this could prove to be a good place to try out some of the "new technologies" that will be needed for a Mars mission, they will have to do a whole lot more before they show that a mission is feasible. Of course, that all comes later.
What I'm wondering is whether they're going to have some of the problems that the various "biosphere" projects had in the past (judging from some quite old Popular Science magazines I had a while back). A big problem with any Mars mission would seem to be the time from landing to liftoff at Mars.
Unlike a short-term near-earth mission, if there is any problem, even small, it has a lot more time to add up. In other words, an "Apollo 13"-style rescue operation would likely have much less chance of succeeding, and what would happen to the space program if we landed humans on Mars and then had to watch them slowly die of exposure.
That's my greatest concern. All previous space disasters involving human lives were quick. While they devastated the emotions of the whole country/world, we moved on. If the public had to watch a Mars team die slowly over the course of weeks, maybe more, it could set the space program back tremendously.
On the other hand, it could end up being a rallying point. The casulties of space could end up strengthening the will of the world to make it off this planet and back, but that's not something I think anyone wants to test.
Anyway, good luck to the Mars Society, and I hope I live to see humans set foot on another world. (Actually, I hope I live to do that myself, but that might take a while.)
I'm glad to see that we are finaly doing something about getting to another planet. There's no possible way we can sustain the current way of life we have without colonization... I can't wait, sign me up!
A cat-5 cable can be how long again??
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Okay, it is cold. Hmmm, I think that this problem has been addressed by ppl that have gone to other cold places on this planet.
What about water?
Okay, water on Mars has been proposed. OTOH, it has been also proposed that landing a lander (using rocket engines) may cause the release of shallow sub-surface volatilies (e.g., solid methane). This is rather nasty as it means that a potentially good landing site is inherently unstable. I don't necessarily agree with this, but it is very interesting.
The area around Sudbury has gotten much better than it was when it was used to simulate the moon.
Now they are using the Great White North to simulate Mars.Fortunately the smog in Toronto doesn't match the conditions on Venus yet.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
This rover would be used by the Artic Base simulated missions. It is also an investigation into what is possible with a Martian rover.
It will be presented at the Mars Society conference in Toronto in 10 days.
You can see an image of the
Email our team for more information.
This vehicle will be constructed in the next year or two.
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Warren Strong
Life Support & Internal Systems Design Leader
Michigan Mars Rover Design Project
Coming soon to CBS...
BIG MARS SURVIVOR!
16 people locked in a simulated Martian colony on a frozen island with cameras in the bathrooms! Go to our gif-ridden website and vote to see who gets kicked out of the colony and forced to swim back to civilization. No sissy boat ride on this show! These people are SURVIVORS!
If the fad doesn't run out before we're done then we'll have part two: CBS EXECUTIVES ON THEIR WAY TO THE SUN SURVIVOR!
According to recent experiments performed at the new Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station in the Canadian Arctic, it has been discovered that there are Penguins on Mars!
One of the JPEGs on the first page shows a guy putting around on a Yamaha quad runner. How the hell is that supposed to work on a planet with little or no oxygen? I thought internal combustion engines required the ability to, oh, I don't know, combust.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), no where on earth even comes close to reproducing the martian landscape. Pressure, temperature, atmosphere, gravity, light, length of day, seasons, etc are all not reproduced adequately there. Just because it looks like mars doesn't mean that the reality makes it like mars. Sounds like a PR stunt to make a show for Discovery channel. A PR stunt isn't a bad thing, necessarily, it just doesn't make for good science. Remember that biosphere, thing?
-- Moondog
SpaceRef.com has a whole section of their site devoted to providing information on the HMP/Mars project up in Haughton Crater. Marc Boucher of Spaceref is up in Haughton Crater as part of the NASA team and is the webmaster for the site. The latest entries from his personal journal are located here.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Aw man, when I first glanced at the post, I read it as 'Stimulating Life of the Red Planet', and thought, 'Cool, we're finally going to teraform that thing'
What a bummer that we are simulting life, it we want a self sustaining colony on mars we need to start terra forming the planet. We should start by dusting the surface with cyanobacteria. Some species can exist on carbon dioxide, water, sun, and sold rocks. THis would start to oxygenate the atmosphere and begin to build a carbon soil layer.
So, lets get to work! Since NASA is so good a crashing things on mars, lets just start pummelling it with canisters of bacteria.
JungleBoy
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might be running loose in your pants."
-Calvin
it looks like they're planning on having macs on mars....
- passion
I remember something about the US having some law or such against colonization.. could this possibly include other planets? although I doubt we'd (the US) obide by that. we've destroyed pretty much every other right and abused every law in this country.
-Drk
I don't mean to rain on NASA's parade, but, seriously, who would want to live on other planets? Personally, I'd be extremely reluctant to leave everything I know behind on Earth and ship myself off to another planet where living conditions would likely be much poorer (at least at first) -- especially knowing that I'd probably never be able to come back.
... but then, you don't see these people in your life because they've all gone elsewhere. Maybe they're living on an oil platform with 25 guys who speak Arabic, or taking an HVAC job in Antarctica. They may be Turks living in Germany, or Kazakhs living in Chicago, or Chinese living in Peru. Just because you're not one of them, don't believe they don't exist.
You're looking at moving to Mars like moving to the suburbs. Where are the movie theatres? Is there a public swimming pool nearby? Are the schools any good?
Frankly, the people moving to Mars (and there will be, not if, just when) aren't looking for creature comforts. They're looking for adventure -- a once-in-many-lifetimes adventure; looking for a challenge; looking to escape poverty, or repression (political; religious; ethnic; take your pick); looking just to get away from it all. These kinds of people have always existed, and they have always driven exploration and colonization movements. Right now people like this, in America, often go to places like Alaska; even though they grew up in cushy California exurbia, they now live in remote cabins and see people once every three months. Yes, it's an unusual way to live your life
Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do if you could leave on a space shuttle for Mars tomorrow. Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock? I think not.
No flame. Just a straight-up Jerry-Springer-show "You don't know me!" Face it: you may be right that most people are like you, but fortunately for humanity, not all people are.
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lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
How are they going to simulate the random NASA probe hurtling uncontrollably towards the ground?
http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
Why will we colonize planets? Well, why did we colonize America? It was a long hard voyage across the ocean. Lots of people were comfortable right where they were.
But people had to flee their opressive country you say? We have incentive too.. to make sure World War III doesn't make us extinct.
Wow, when I first read this, I parsed it as "Stimulating Life on the Red Planet"! Visions of NASA terraforming Mars danced infront of my eyes. Next, I reinterpreted it as stimulating native martian life forms to grow and proliferate in a lab on earth. Still reading "stimulating", I was expecting an article of the "stimulating night life and culture" on Mars. No such luck. Of course, now that I know what it *really* says, I still keep thinking that the hidden message is really that NASA is simulating martian life forms by genetically engineering bacteria that could have evolved there...
Too many conspiracies, not enough coffee!
It's only software!
I have always been amused that we simulate a Mars-like environment here on Earth, in preparation for a journey to the Red Planet. The usual political line, and that of science as well, has always been that when we get to Mars, the things we learn will help us understand Earth better. Yet, we use our understanding of Earth to get to Mars.
:)
A woman using her understanding of me to try to help me understand her? Hasn't worked yet.
No joke. I think a nuclear war will wipe out the population of Earth shortly after we establish a viable free-roaming population off Earth.
People won't nuke their own planet, it just doesn't take that many bombs to make a planet unlivable. However, Earth will indefinitely continue to be the ultimate desirable living space and will be the focus of religious obsession for spacefarers. Whether it's "those degenerates who stayed behind and are destroying what's left of the Cradle of Man" or "the infidels who are standing in the way of Our Glorious Return," a few nukes (or big rocks, for that matter) here and there will seem acceptable. Of course, then a few more will seem acceptable, until all Holy Terra goes up in a holy fire.
I personally think that many people in high places have come to the same conclusion, and this is why space travel is so expensive. Our own little Bureau of Sabotage or I-A (see Frank Herbert's "The Dosadi Experiment" or "The Godmakers") to toss a monkey-wrench into things that will lead to planetary destruction, like space travel. I'm generally not big on conspiracy theories, but I think the surface facts of how we've avoided nuclear war thus far are simply incredible without some other organized effort.
I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to hang back when people start moving out.
---
Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
...that Mars is inhabited by a single sapient subariessian slime-mold colony that controls the weather and is currently in its semi-dormant period.
What do you think is interfering with all the Mars probes? What do you think makes the canals appear and disappear?
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Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
I wonder why this story wasn't consider Newsworthy for Nerds when I submitted it in the same Slashdot category 10 days ago?
*Grumble. Whine.* Methinks maybe Hemos is prejudiced agaist Coyotes and in favour of Wolves.
Anyway, I am glad to see that at least they finally did see fit to post the story even if someone else gets the credit for the submission. This is a very practical and important step in preparing for the eventual (and hopefully inevitible) human journeying to Mars.
The last time humans ventured out of near Earth orbit over a GENERATION ago. It is something one can only read about in the history books, not something in today's news. Come on, let's get back out there!
I would go howl at the moon now, but it's not out tonight, so... I guess I'll just go and howl.
Trickster Coyote
Ideology is for ideots.
I don't mean to rain on NASA's parade, but, seriously, who would want to live on other planets?
Well, besides the grand dreams of boldly going where no one has gone before, (which would be reason enough for me, even if it was a one way trip), Mars would be a great place for an offshore data haven. Sure, the pings times would be dreadful, but those corporate lawyer types would have one hell of a time trying to shut down your servers!
Trickster Coyote
Ideology is for ideots.
Consider losing the casters on the swivel chairs. :-) Mars is *bumpy*.
--
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Depends what your definition is.............
I have actually been married for 6 years quite happily to a woman, I am a hetero-sexual and always have been always will be I have no interest in the gay lifestyle unlike some of the people that I know. PS. Some of those guy's would probably crack your fucking skull for your point of view......
But perhaps it takes more than the brains of an amoeba to realise that you do not need to be gay to realise that you can defend their lifestyle.
If you are refering to me being a faggot in the traditional English sense then I am certainly not a piece of kindling.... Look it up do you know what a book is??
PS There have been recent studies done to actually show those that are most homophobic do it because they seem to display those same tendancies themselves, they are "revolted" by what they consider abnormal and therefore act out their aggression on others. I am confident in my sexuality, I have been laid and continue to get laid on average 3 times a week (by a woman, sometimes even 2!!).....
If you are a homophobe which you obivously are maybe you are the one that is confused. If this is the case perhaps you should give it a go....you might be the one in denial I know who I am and am comfortable in my hetero-sexual lifestyle are you equally comfortable, if not perhaps try it you might like it!!!
Otherwise you redneck motherfucker fuck you and the whole of your inbred fucking viewpoint....
If there are to many big words here remember look at a book yes they are the ones without pictures in them, yeh the ones you do not need to colour in..............
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
Well, there are speculative ways to avoid the final death of life in the Universe...
Sometimes we like to play around, swinger it is!!
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
If there is some type of control on /. can this thread now be terminated. I know the irony of what I am saying I have contributed twice to it! (See studying logic is paying of ma!!) -Once in response to a bigot the other in response to a question??
/. in many areas in which I consider myself a mere amoeba. Please finish with this pointless excuse for a post. Otherwise come up with something at least remotely intelligent. You are like self-propagating genes with this thing.......
This discussion is about MARS COLONISATION a topic that I would love to here ideas from as I have learnt there are many intelligent and insightful posts to be read on
Naturally select this bastard out....
Peace Love and Mung Beans to the rest of you out there!!!
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
Nowhere is the Devon Island project being billed as "science". Of course we cannot do Mars "science" on Earth, that would be nonsensical. This project is about the practical knowledge needed to support a long-term habitat on another planet.
"The outpost is not intended to be a high-fidelity mockup of a martian outpost, with regenerative systems and enclosed life support. Rather, the point of the habitat is to learn how to operate on Mars, to coordinate the people, robots, vehicles and mission control centers."
(Right there on the Discovery website you didn't read.)
To some extent this is above all a public relations project ("stunt" being in the eye of the beholder). The Mars Society, though, is all about making Mars exploration practical. This isn't so much a "science experiment" as it is a dry run using the model proposed by Dr. Robert Zubrin, the society's president. It's a learning experiment, in other words.
NASA does plenty of pure research science in this area -- for example, astronauts have spent months at a time in very rigorous closed systems that test air and water recycling technologies. (This is much like Biosphere, actually, but with experimental controls.) But NASA is barred by Congress from funding almost anything resembling true preparation for a Mars mission. The Mars Society is seeking to fill that niche with the Devon Island station.
Don't think of this as science, because it isn't about getting scientific results. It's about learning what works and what doesn't so that when we DO go to Mars we have plenty of foreknowledge.
It's also about education, about public outreach, and about motivating the troops. And last but not least, it's our (the Mars Society's) money -- we can spend it any way we like. So there!
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lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
I'd like to respond in more detail, but it all comes down to your final, appallingly ignorant line:
Emerson Williwick wrote:
It's a good idea, scientists, but why waste effort on idealistic dreams of settling other planets? I'd rather see our great scientific minds work to fix the growing shortage of resources here on Earth.
First of all, some of us do NOT believe that these dreams are at all idealistic. They are practical, they are achievable, and they represent the future of the human race. How silly to think that interplanetary exploration is within our grasp, and we won't take it! (I won't even address the vast array of misinformation you throw about regarding the cost and feasibility of Mars missions; it's plain you just don't know moe than you've learned from headlines.)
But second: the growing shortage of resources here on Earth exists for one simple reason, because Earth is finite. What resources would you have scientists conjure up? Star Trek style mass replicators? Shall we grow a continent of jungle, compress it beneath the sea, and thereby create new sources of oil and coal?
Certainly for the short-term humans will not completely use up all our resources, and even those we use up we will find substitutes for. Whether it's petroleum or simply the ever-useful copper, we'll have to face up one day to the fact that it's all been used and the rest is too expensive to mine. At that point getting resources from off-Earth sources, like asteroids, becomes not only feasible but economically necessary.
Earth is finite. You can't change that fact. What you can change is whether or not Earth is the finite boundary of human society.
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lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
Speculative is that what they call BULLSHIT where you come from....
*sigh* Calm down, you'll give yourself an ulcer if you get this stressed over every little thing. Speculative means "maybe true" in my book, and I don't actually recall ever saying I believed he was correct, did I? I personally don't think he's correct, but its worth a read anyway simply for some of the more scientific parts of the book.
It is quite amazing how many cranks there are that revert to using Quantum Physics without truly understanding it's implications shit there are only a couple of thousand people who can seriously grasp the complexity of the whole thing.
And you're one of them? Please explain how I am wrong in what I was saying since your intellect obviously dwarfs mine.
"Subjective Time" - refer to the Theory of Relativity you dolt or read some Einstein, Penrose, Hawking, Davies etc ad infinitum. Your not telling us anything new.
What are you talking about? By subjective time I mean the time in which an emulation running on some kind of universal Turing machine perceives time as opposed to the proper time it takes to actually calculate the emulation for that time. It's got more to do with computer science than with relativity.
In case you are stuck back in the 1800's please read some recent findings into the nature of our Universe, might I suggest NASA or even the MIT websites, if that is to much why not watch some Discovery channel!!!
Or I could just use the stuff I learnt doing theoretical physics as a degree eh?
By the way your Black Hole thing you will still suffer the same fate that of becoming part of the singularity which they emanate from (now this is speculation but alot better than your pseudo-bullshit!!)
What black hole thing? You are now devolving into complete gibberish which makes no sense. Feel free to reply but this time a) talking sense and b) using English sentances. It makes a real difference to how you look you know.
I mean. Nobody gave a shit about indigenous people in the Americas.
If you're American, your society is based on the wholesale genocide of fellow human beings so why should anyone give a shit about martian life forms. Get real. It's about land, people.
Gimme Gimme Gimme - Karma!
SPRI/BAS (Scott Polar Research Institute & British Antarctic Survey) have been simulating the Martian environment with a view to people living on Mars for ages. I should know - I designed the logo for their 'Mars Mission' publicity day!
FatPhil
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
I can reply this time-oh how benevolent of you. I forgot that you are now the chief controlling force of the whole Internet not to mention the universe by the implications in your post.
So you are a theorectical physicist!- oh know better stop the arguement here we have (a wait for it!!!)a CLAIM TO AUTHORITY.
Somebody not so pompous would say that they are still learning physics even Newton but you no you know it all you already LEARNT it all.
You must of had an amazing teacher he already taught you everything! Or did you just teach yourself after applying your BULLSHIT theories. It is amazing how much you know about me when I read your email I put my hands on the screen and my ulcer just went away!!
I presume you still are contributing theory in this field and not just studied for 3-4 years.
Pity I have not heard of your name anywhere as you seem to have learnt everything.
Many points:
1. Thanks for the laughs and the insults, I plan to print this out and show it to the Theoretical Physics faculty at Macquarie University!!
2. I never implied that my intellect dwarf's yours either (don't know how the hell you implied that must be your own form of neuroses)
3. I could not be bothered explaining anything to you that you can find out for yourself by enrolling in more classes or joining a physics\mathematics mailing list. Or better still go back and become a Doctor then a Proffessor of Theoretical Physics (that would still not make you an expert. Oh that's right I forgot you already know it all!!)
4. I never said I understood the whole of Quantum Mechanics............
5. I myself study pure mathematics does that make me king shit too, oh no it doesn't because I don't know everything (unlike yourself) not even English!!
6. I suppose this theory of your's is being peer reviewed somewhere in a Physical Review Letters or can't the rest of us mere mortals perform peer review on your groundbreaking research. Even other physicist learn from each other.
7. Oh no here it is the theory of all theories wait for it: The some kind of Turing Machine (how will I ever reply to that will have to check this out with the Comp Sci. Division)!! I have only heard\learnt about Turing Machines not this new form of "some kind of Turing Machine". By the way this was not implied in your post (and you are commenting on other peoples English plus you are writing a book please make it more interesting than this post) How the hell can we know what you mean if you do not tell us? Do we pray to you? Did you mention it in the Bible??
8. You should know everything about blackhole's because after all you learnt it in your IAMATHEORETICALKNOWALL degree. Most people only learn a small portion of physics or whatever course they do. Not jump around claiming they know all of it.
9. I am devolving into complete gibberish- Thank you! Of course I am compared to a genius such as yourself who KNOWS IT ALL!!!!!
10. Sorry I can't look any better shall I change my shirt or something..........
11. Come on now surely who have heard of the singularity theory of Black Holes. It is also sometimes called Penroses theory come on genius it has only been around since 1964. Check it out, do the math see for yourself. Oh that's right you are a physicist. Learn some MATHS then!!
By the way on the English thing it is spelt Sentence, if you are going to use a) and b) use double dots before time eg. time: a)I am so superior b) I have my head stuck up my ass.
Might want to note this since you are writing a book!!!
Signed the Amoeba who dared criticise the man with the Physics degree in everything.
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
Interestingly enough, most civilizations end through their own fault, they stop advancing technologically and some other civilization that hasnt been so lackadasical comes along and takes them over, then that civilization becomes complacent and falls, and so on. All I have to say is, when the alien civilization comes to conquer earth because weve been slacking off, dont blame me, i plan on voting for kodos.
So you are a theorectical physicist!- oh know better stop the arguement here we have (a wait for it!!!)a CLAIM TO AUTHORITY.
No, that's just how you took it. I just said that I had some knowledge of the field. Anyone who thinks they know everything is an idiot.
It is amazing how much you know about me when I read your email I put my hands on the screen and my ulcer just went away!!
What email would that be?
Thanks for the laughs and the insults, I plan to print this out and show it to the Theoretical Physics faculty at Macquarie University!!
Yeah, well I'm sure they're well used to your histrionics by now...
I suppose this theory of your's is being peer reviewed somewhere in a Physical Review Letters or can't the rest of us mere mortals perform peer review on your groundbreaking research. Even other physicist learn from each other.
And what theory would that be? If your talking about Tipler's stuff, then you're way off, because I don't believe in it myself! Huh, how's about that? I never said I had any theory at all, I was just mentioning some speculative things I've read. I didn't claim they were true.
Come on now surely who have heard of the singularity theory of Black Holes. It is also sometimes called Penroses theory come on genius it has only been around since 1964. Check it out, do the math see for yourself. Oh that's right you are a physicist. Learn some MATHS then!!
Being serious, what exactly do you mean here? I've done a fair bit of general relativity stuff to do with black holes and read a lot of Penrose's and Hawking's work on the subject, and it could just be that you're calling it something other than what I am.
By the way on the English thing it is spelt Sentence, if you are going to use a) and b) use double dots before time eg. time: a)I am so superior b) I have my head stuck up my ass.
True, but the start of your sentence should read "By the way, on the ...". Two can play at that game...
Please reply, this is fun :)
Yeah, well I'm sure they're well used to your histrionics by now... -hmmm a psychiatrist as well.
:(
/. it allows my brain to get rid of it kinda like a seweage valve) By they way nobody know's a really lame flame when they see one these days........
:))
Perhaps I can sit down with you and tell you about my mother as well......:)
My fault- I thought you believed in "that stuff" as you refer to it. I see now that you are just refering to the theories- a much more tenable position to be in.
Being serious:
1. About the Black Hole thing I meant what I meant when I thought you meant what you meant.
2. You asked me which "Black Hole Thing" so I told you. Penrose's Theorem (or that is what I know it as) completed in 1964 (on a bit of paper I might add and not confirmed by any evidence-a yes the bane of nearly all of astrophysics!!!) I see now I was way off as you where only stating theories not advocating anything........
3. You where talking of your "some kind of Turing Machine" which you did not present in your original arguement. You only later introduced this to the debate. I took exception to this when you did not mention it. Therefore I began writing all of this "gibberish" as you so eloquently put it (I couldn't agree with you more by the way I generally to prefer to speak alot of crap here on
4. Or do you mean about learning some MATHS- ALL Mathematicians know that Physicists use mathematics to prove their "pet" theories when they have already formulated the "subjective" hypotheses in their own heads to begin with, then they go out and somehow find their empirical evidence. (this is a gross generalization but not to far from the truth)
It is a simple exercise in LOGIC. To prove the conclusion: 1. At least one or both of the propositions must be true Statements eg. The Moon is made of Green Cheese, I am an idiot 2. If the premises are false so will the conclusion be.
3. We can never start off with 2 false propositions to prove conclusions. (So the maker of the theory usually knows what he is looking for to begin with -this is another gross generalization. I seriously don't believe that all science is rubbish or fantasy but some of it is closer to philosophy than most hard nosed "scientists" would like to admit!
Anything can be proven if you really look hard enough and fudge enough numbers together. eg. I can find you millions of correlations in the Bible that make it look like a code. I can find your name my name even this post if I have enough compute cycles. Same as I could get a group of monkeys to type out this post (or Shakespeare as they say given enough time!!)
You are right on the English though:
Study Mathematics that is why I Pure
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
My fault- I thought you believed in "that stuff" as you refer to it. I see now that you are just refering to the theories- a much more tenable position to be in.
Yeah, my take on Tipler's stuff is that: a) it's all very tenuous, sort of like a house of cards; and b) even if the physics is right it still relies on certain conditions to do with physical constants. And given that it doesn't take into account recent developments such as M-theory I doubt that we have the knowledge currently to make such sweeping conclusions. Still, it was quite an interesting read, but it shouldn't be taken too seriously.
You where talking of your "some kind of Turing Machine" which you did not present in your original arguement.
A universal Turing machine could do anything given enough energy... that's the real crunch though. Without infinite energy you can't do infinite calculations and thus you don't have a universal Turing machine. I think.
Or do you mean about learning some MATHS- ALL Mathematicians know that Physicists use mathematics to prove their "pet" theories when they have already formulated the "subjective" hypotheses in their own heads to begin with, then they go out and somehow find their empirical evidence. (this is a gross generalization but not to far from the truth)
If I had the time and money I'd go back and do another degree in maths, I almost did the first time around... So what are your views on things like superstring theory/M-theory which makes use of all kinds of advanced maths and indeed has come up with some new maths of its own (duality relations)?
(semi-OT)
It's only a matter of time before the Yuppies discover Mars as the Next Great Place to Live(TM). Before you know it there will be strip malls, chain resturaunts with 3hr wait every night of the week (doesen't anyone *make* dinner anymore?), ugly houses 3 feet apart, traffic, traffic, and more traffic.
Eventually the Yuppies will discover Mars, and they *will* destroy it.
This is an important thing to do, despite Earth's gravity, and other quirks, because no one is doing this work. Because of this contest, there are hundreds of engineers and scientists worldwide working on real Mars Rover designs. While it may not be 100% useful, it will put alot more thought and research out into the manned vehicle arena.
The idea is that this analog (as in analogy, as in comparison) vehicle is not restricted by mass limits, but rather by budget limits, while on the other hand, the real rover, is not restricted by budget limits (nearly as much as these projects) but are restricted by mass limits.
Either way, with the vehicle we will be building, you will be able to simulate all important Mars operations, as well as figure out a good chunk of the engineering problems.
The funny thing about the Mars Society is that the top group of "elite" Mars Society guys are playing kids games. They just want their Discovery Channel sponsorship money and think only of big things. But in reality, it is the hard working chapters across the world of the Mars Society which get the real work done. Its unfortunate that our leadership doesn't understand that.
Feel free to email me and ask more questions,
----
Warren Strong
Life Support & Internal Systems Design Leader
Michigan Mars Rover Design Project
superstring theory/M-theory -
.............
I am going to sleep now so I will make this short.
I think that in "theory" it is brilliant to study these area's. I am just alittle sceptical about some of the claims that will be made from the theories as pertaining to ACTUAL CONCRETE FACT (as in that is the way the universe actually is instead of our interpretation of it)
I have no doubt that theories are likely way's of looking at the universe. It is the same as the atom (the debate over whether it really has this shape or whether this is the best shape that we can possibly give it judging by all the mathematical theory and "direct" evidence -who knows there are interesting points on both sides of the spectrum. I probably sit somewhere in the middle as I have a major in Philosophy\Comp Science\Mathematics. It is hard to make "exact" claims from theories)
I believe we are "imperfect" individuals therefore all of our theories will always be flawed coming out of an imperfect cranium evolved to survive in the African Savanah. But do theories describe what might be happening-of course they this cannot be disputed except for those armed with their own set of trusty mathematical implements-thus the paradox!!
Not knowing to much about M-Theory I would hesitate to make comment.
I hope that SUPERSTRING THEORY does become a binding and cohesive unit of knowledge in both Mathematics and Physics (I suppose it applies more so here than in Mathematics -Mathematicians are notorious for deliberately making there theories inapplicable in the "real" world) ST-would do much to make our understanding of the Universe that much better and complete another little piece in the puzzle. I have not heard much from this quarter in awhile perhaps they have become stuck on bones of contention as these things always do.
Of course new mathematics will always be evolving much like any other science if it wishes to survive- Scientists usually level this barrage at Religion saying it evolves to accomodate but so does science I do believe.
Of course Physicists can come up with new number theories (whether they become accepted by the mathematicians is another question without alot of scrutiny)
I always go back to the initial point of LOGIC. It seems as though we constantly are seeking the answers to questions that we already have an inkling of the answer to. The maths we are "inventing" we are tailoring to our own ends as if the end product is completely unknown. I don't know.... equations (which most of maths is no matter the complexity cannot have to many unknowables many things must be assumed, framed in order to present a cohesive "arguement")
This frightens me sometimes it seems we rigidly follow their precepts without seeing that they can sometimes be interpreted in a different light!!
Physics does not suffer from this as much as other Sciences (even though you will get many astrophycists that swear to you they KNOW things concretely about the Universe, same I suppose for Quantum Mechanics - I have heard rumblings in some quarters that the Standard Model is wrong but how could this be when the maths doesn't allow it?? Aha they say we will show you that the Maths they are using is being interpreted incorrectly!!!)
It happens alot Biology especially gene theory, Intelligence Studies, Neuroscience suffers from this in no abounds. I myself am an evolutionist but see this as more of a belief system than a concrete fact, even though one would be foolish not to see the glaring bits of evidence that make it such a tantalising and obvious belief. But there are those amongst us that can prove these kind of premises to us mathematically (Richard Dawkins one of my heroes can, bless his precious mind!!), I do not know.
I think MATHS presents us with many alternatives it is not such a simple IN OUT OPERATION - the user makes judgements on the numbers concluding certain facts which are then taken as ABSOLUTE! This bothers me sometimes.........
Enough of my ranting......
Anways I am off to sleep to dream of numbers
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
In the same place it's always been, you moron.
You show your true nature, that of a white supremacist, by comparing precolombian America to "a hump of red rock". There were millions of people living in America before the Europeans started their genocide and slavemongering. They had some of the more advanced civilizations in history, too-- go to my beloved Peru some day.
Are you adequate?
They should just watch Mission to Mars!! I mean, the tent with its flaps blowing in the wind, the guy was living in for some months, it looked plenty good to me!
Your white supremacist mentality really sickens me. Didn't you fucking know that America was settled when the Europeans came? What the fuck are you thinking? Do you think the early European colonists would have gotten anywhere without help from the natives?
In fact, the early european colonies only made it because the natives helped out the early colonizersand taught them how to make use of the local environment, which was very different from Europe.
Mars, on the other hand, is truly unsettled.
Are you adequate?
Here's a comprehensive list of Internet resources about this story:
The original Arctic Mars homepage was providing regular updates about the research station, but they stopped around two weeks ago. They still have a lot of background material about the story.
From that point on, current news has been posted to the Mars Society Homepage.
Marc Boucher, CEO of SpaceRef is also the webmaster for the project, so SpaceRef has a tremendous amount of coverage of the project, as well as a live webcam.
In my opinion, though, MSNBC has had the absolutely best coverage, providing stories almost daily; unfortunately, they overwrite the older stories so there's no archive:
July 31 - Mars simulation begins in Arctic
And, of course, my own coverage at Universe Today:
Fraser Cain
Publisher, Universe Today - http://www.universetoday.com
It takes more energy to get to the moon. Even if there was an endless supply of fuel available at no cost sitting on the moon (which there obviously is not), it would still not be cost effective to go that route.
I could only see a moon stop on the way to mars if it was due to commercial space flight similar to airlines today, where you might go a bit out of your way to stop in route to pick up additional passengers. However that's quite far off, and by then we'd probably be using more advanced systems, and it wouldn't really be an issue either way.
It would be neet however to have a system where as vessels to both can sort of piggy back to LEO and then go on their separate ways.
Correct. Mars Society is a not-for-profit organization.
There are people participating in both organizations of course.
Cheers,
Adrian Z
It under development. In the latest version you can scroll around the Mars map, look what's going on in the bases, watch colonists drive around in rovers and grow food.
There have been numerous comments here that I think are unsubstantiated and quite ridiculous. If they were written purely as a joke, than they're funny, but if any of these were written from a serious viewpoint I feel compelled to comment.
To the question of why go to mars. You obviously don't want to go. It takes a certain kind of vision and desire to want to go to a different place and do something that no one has done before. It is not to abandon everything here on the Earth. Even future martians will be Earthmen(and women) at the heart of it. Someone suggested that we won't go until it's comfortable on Mars. This is a ludicrous suggestion. Did our ancestors stay in the comfortable reaches of Africa and the fertile crescent in the middle east? Did the explorers of the new world leave when they found that there were diseases and other hardships that no one had ever seen before? No, if we are to wait until this happens, no on will go to Mars for several centuries (if ever).
We will go not to "abandon hope for the Earth," but will go there to expand our knowledge fo the universe and to discover new resources. Someone commented that we need to concentrate on solving the problems here on Earth first. I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at this. We will never solve all of the problems here on Earth. Resources will continue to fade. If you thought out your statement ahead of time you would realize that this is an argument FOR going to mars. Humans are inherently flawed, and therefore there will always be problems. If we are to avoid a complete loss of resources than we need to leave this planet, at least some of us.
As for feasibility, this year's field season is being devoted just to a shakedown of the habitat. It is not intended to proove the feasibility of the design or the idea of going to Mars with this single short use of the habitat. This is not a biosphere. The habitat is to be used to simulate a similar (emphasis on similar) environment and living conditions. Scientists will communicate with "mission control" through a time delay to simulate the distance between the Earth and Mars. Scientists will also simulate the necessity of wearing a space suit by waiting in the "airlock" to simulate pre-breathing and wearing a suit during field excursions. This project is designed to allow scientists to do some of the same research that would be done on Mars. It is not intended to replace the research that would be done on Mars. It is not bad science. It is good science that will be good for PR and getting the idea of sending humans to Mars out in the public eye. For those of you who want to read more about the science side, go to http://www.arctic-mars.org and read up on the science that is being done up there.
This is not anything like the crap that was displayed in survivor or big brother. This is not a contest for money. This is an opportunity to do good science in a Martian analog with a good simulation of the martian experience. The ATV's are used because they're cheap. Any project that would use a "Mars Rover" would be much more expensive and not that realistic for the present.
Yuppies won't take over Mars because it will be tough of an environment for quite a while. Yuppies like things easy, and they wouldn't survive.
If you believe what you saw in "Mission to Mars," than you should rethink everything about a mission to mars. The whole tent thing was ridiculous. The materials and the tent itself wouldn't be able to sustain a breathable environment for anyone. That whole movie was filled with bad science.
As for the issue of terraforming, there are many people who are looking into terraforming Mars. As a matter of fact, I am working on a zonal energy balance model for the martian atmosphere as it's terraformed. I will be presenting the results at the Mars Society Conference which runs August 9-13. I encourage people to attend. For those who want to read more about terraforming, I suggest you do a search for papers written by Chris McKay, Robert Zubrin, and Martin Fogg. Chris did the first real serious work on terraforming.
As for going to Mars being the precursor to nuclear war, I think the entire concept is ludicrous and doesn't deserve any more comment.
Erik Carlstrom
"The most incomprehensible thing about the univers is that it is comprehensible."
-Albert Einstein
"He who quotes a lot exhibits memory rather than intelligence."
-Leonardo Da Vinci
Besides my other comment replying to you (last night my time - I live in Australia)what is your take on all of this.
For my money's worth it seems as if we can already approximate all of the details that make up the atmosphere on a planet as unique and distinctive as Mars might be?? How do we know what is install for us. Granted we can approximate the conditions down at the research facility but this is quite different to the outside world. It seems that everyone has forgotten the principles of Chaos theory these day's oh that's right it is called non-linear feedback in Dynamic Systems now isn't it??
I think the stress on this experiment is the "simulating" the conditions. It is like getting astronauts to go up in planes or underwater to "simulate" a zero G environment. From the testimony of most astronaut's it is quite different when you actually get up there....
Ok granted it should be attempted "to boldly go" and all that Star Trek sentiment and also in the quest for human discovery but for my money it is just cheaper to send "complex" systems like robots up there. I know the last one crashed but so did the first few bloody rockets we sent up into orbit!!!!
anyway that is my 3 cents worth
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
I am actually starting to find it quite amusing this one made me genuinely laugh. Must be one of those jokes that just keeps getting better and better.
Ever thought about taking it on the road and touring it. Shit the comedy circuit jumps up and down on individuals such as you
to save you time:
you
are
a
fag
"The way she used to say Rimmer as if it rhymed with scum" Red Dwarf
Ban this IP. Please.
Thank you.
4920616D206E6F7420656C6974652E
Email me.
+++ATH0
Read this, jackass.
Thank you.
4920616D206E6F7420656C6974652E
Email me.
+++ATH0