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TiVo Changing Privacy Policy?
Update 4:45 EDT: I spoke with TiVo about this. They are rolling out a DirecTV/TiVo combination box this weekend, and the new privacy policy was intended to reflect the fact that, when you register using the new combo box, both TiVo and DirecTV get your Account Information.
"We reserve the right to disclose to our hardware manufacturing partners (for example, Sony, Philips and Thomson) the Account Information and Anonymous Viewing Information of subscribers who use a Receiver made by that manufacturing partner..."
"Account Information" includes "Contact Information," which includes your name, address, phone, email, and other sundries, but not your viewing habits. "Anonymous Viewing Information" is a statistical aggregate of what you - and everyone else in your zip code - likes to watch.
The partner corporations will only get access to your "Personal Viewing Information" if you already expressly gave TiVo permission to have that information (I'm not sure why you would).
Two things to note:
First, you cannot opt-out of this information sharing with their hardware partners. If you sign up with DirecTV and TiVo simultaneously on your new combo box, then sorry, both companies get that info. The way they described it, there isn't much they can do about this.
This is despite my being told, when I called their customer support line as a customer rather than a reporter, that my opting-out of the Anonymous Viewing Information collection would also opt me out of the Contact Information. Oops. My guess is that their customer service people aren't hip on the new privacy agreement change yet. Give 'em a week.
Second, I was verbally assured that existing TiVo customers, without combo boxes, will not just have their Account Information or Anonymous Viewing Information given to the makers of their non-combo box. In other words, just because I own a TiVo box made by Philips, Philips won't get my name, address, email, etc. It would only be if I owned a (hypothetical future) combo box made by Philips.
Of course it would be nice for this assurance to be in the privacy policy itself! It really should be more specific.
They didn't promise me anything except that they'd try to be more specific in the future. I hope we'll be able to run a Slashback story in the next week or two, to let you know whether their policy has been appropriately updated. Stay tuned.
There's a flag on the machine that controls whether your personal info is sent at all. If you enable that flag, it doesn't get sent. So, you can either hack the box and set it, OR you can call Tivo and opt-out of the viewing info. They send a script to your machine on the next call it makes that has been verified to set that flag.
Anyway, this policy change has nothing to with your anonymous viewing information. Next time, get the details before you start spouting off.
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Tivo's at least acting responsibly about this.
I took the suggestion of other poster's here and called them on the 877 number.
Their rep asked me what I did or didn't understand about the new privacy policy, and made sure to reiterate that it's anonymous information they're sharing.
And he DID let me opt out. Their rep was pleasant, informative, and quick at noting in his workstation that my information is not to be shared.
He asked me why I was concerned about it, since it was anonymous information.
I explained that it's very easy to go from a snowflake of anonymous information into an avalanche of exploitation, that it only takes someone saying, "well, last year we sold that much information, maybe it's more valuable if we sell it *this* way!" and that I'd rather not contribute to that sort of future. He agreed and noted it, saying he'd mention that to his supervisor.
Do I think that makes a difference? no, but at least they're acting responsibly.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
It is true that Tivo is very useful for cutting the ads out, but they're still relatively ad-friendly compared to how well it could work. You have to fast-forward through ads (and watch them to know when to stop ffing) instead of just "skipping" them, so you still experience blitverts. Also, when you stop fast forwarding, it "conveniently" rewinds a bit, so you always get to watch the tail end of the last ad. If Tivos catch on, I expect that the last 10 seconds at the end of commercial breaks will become worth more to advertisers than the rest of the commercial break.
What's worse is that the flaws will never be fixed. It's intentionally done this way; those are features, not bugs. That's why an open source Tivo alternative would be so nice.
That said, it's still a neat product and the ad-to-blitvert conversion speeds things up nicely. I can watch Battlebots in 10 or 11 minutes, thanks to my Tivo.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
If you have a stand-alone box, then this change does not affect you. Later, it has been stated that this will allow OPT-IN programs, giving them and you the flexibilty to control how much of your data is shared (if any at all, you can opt out of even the agregate data that is uploaded).
For the direct tv/tivo combination, they HAVE to link this info for pay-per-view billing. Before the licence change, that was impossible, and would have limited the functionallity legally possible with this combo box.
When are the posters here at slashdot going to RESEARCH submissions before implying that someone is being screwed.
The solution? Be anonymous.
The gov't and businesses don't wanna play nice and prefer to rape our private infomation again and again. It's time to fight back.
Use anonymous remailers like replay.com.
Daisychain several accounts through multiple anonymous remailers. Make sure there's a Yahoo or Hotmail account at the end of the chain.
Never use the email address that your ISP provides you.
Run Linux to make security easier for you to control.
Set up ipchains to trap and reject all packets bount for banner ad sites, microsoft, real.com (Real audio), etc. use the whois server at arin.net to see who owns what IP address block.
Turn off identd.
Use DHCP. Even if you have static IP addresses for servers, add another network card to your machine, bind it to a DHCP address and route all your own personal net surfing through that card.
Create psuedo accounts when some kind of logging in is required. cypherpunks/cypherpunks often works.
Give phony postal addresses. Some check these for real addresses and validate city name against zip code and even against street name/mumber, so go read the address off og a traffic light controller box (yes, they actually have addresses assigned to them).
Need stuff delivered? Get a P.O. Box or a box at one of those box rental places (the latter is preferred if you reveice via non USPS delivery methods (UPS, FedEx, etc.). Make sure this is the address on your drivers license and the address your car is registered too.
Pay bills or buy stuff over the web with anonymously purchased $0.50 money orders from 7-11. Pay cash for the money orders.
Give out bogus phone numbers to sites that want telephone numbers. A payphone's phone number works nicely.
Have two phone lines, one for your own personal use and one that never has a phone attached to it, and no modems, fax machines, or answering machines either, and which in fact never rings audiable to you at all. Use this number with all utilities, credit cards, health insurance firms, ISPs, the Motor Vehicle Dept., Domain Name registrations, and any other place that requires your "real" phone number. It's even OK if telemarketers get the number. Endless rings with not even an answering machines wastes the maximum possible amount of their time with no return for them on time invested.
Use crypto wherever possible. You should even download the int'l kernel patches (from www.kerneli.org) and create encrypted disk partitions to store any volitile data on. And don't use just one crypto method. Create a 2nd encrypted filesystem inside the 1st encrypted filesystem. Repeat 2,3,4 times using different crypto algs and passphrases at each level. That way if your machine is stolen, no one mounts the filesystem without the password, not even the NSA.
Never give passwords over non SSL connections.
And above all, be paranoid. Just because everyone isn't out to get you doesn't that there's someone out to get you.
And always know that corporations have FORCED you to take these extreme measures and that it is necessary and right for you to do so.
power to the people.
Obviously, the only carelessness on my part is posting AT ALL. My post was hardly as inflamatory as all your attacks on slashdot I see, and was in response to TIVO, not you.
However, since you love the fire in your veins, and are so incredulous to my wise User Number (heh, like that means anything) to sum up... I don't see why a person who just purchased a new appliance at retail, must sell it for a loss. It's true, I didn't know that there was a healthy market on ebay, but at the same time, it'll be a moot point when the bigger capacity ones come out for christmas, and the prices of the old ones will plummet.
Honestly though, it was only a few months ago that I was looking at the Tivo website, reading their private policy plan. One that said that I should feel all warm and fuzzy inside, because they swear up and down, that no one will know my viewing habbits. So I buy one. And now, before a few months are up, they say whoops, scratch that, we're ammending that.
And so then I read people say: Easy, just drop the service. Well, If I drop the service then I can't use the box. That's my point. That's all. No service = no box. So you're point is to sell the box too, yippee, good point. Let's go ahead and chew my ass out because my point wasn't as great as your point, or that my point wasn't written as good, or obviously didn't cover everyone else's points with subnotes. Next time I'll add a bibliography.
Rader
Maybe you shouldn't do things that you would later be ashamed of, instead of worrying about privacy so much.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
It says blatantly right here that If you don't want even your anonymous viewing information (information that does not identify you or your household) used in any way, simply tell us by calling our toll-free telephone number (1-877-FOR-TiVo).
That doesn't mean I like companies with lax privacy policies (I think Tivo should be boycotted), but you have to take responsibilty for maintaining your own privacy.
If you have a problem with my views, REPLY, don't moderate!
TIVO had atleast the courtesy to notify you that their policy is being changed and that you can opt out if you like. But what about sites that has Double Click invisible banners to track the users in their webpages. What about failed dot coms who are selling their customer information to others. Respect TIVO for what they did. I am sure they had valid business reasons to do so.
Rapid Nirvana
Oh boy, let's watch CmdrTaco rant YET AGAIN without reading the full article that he's ranting about. Of course partners like DirecTV and AOL will have access to the customer data -- they need it in order to service the account. It's not like they're broadcasting your viewing choices to anyone and everyone, they are sharing very specific account data with partners that have a valid need for it, and from whom you have purchaseed a device or service. Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt when you don't know all the facts? This is very much like the RedHat sensationalism that was posted yesterday, and I'm sure there'll be another issue that'll get blown entirely out of proportion tomorrow. Taco asked us to give Andover the benefit of the doubt when they purchased Slashdot, but he's not willing to do the same for TiVo when they form partnerships with other corporations. Aren't double standards great?
The changes seem fairly harmless, but I don't think it's ethical to change something like this. I don't know much about torts, but could something like this even be considered a breach of contract?
I don't think so. For an ongoing service, if they notify of changes far enough in advance for you to cancel the service, I see nothing wrong with it, particularly as most services I've dealt with (ISPs, credit cards, etc.) include a clause in their terms of service or contract that states that they can change the terms with x days of notice.
Really? Did you buy the lifetime subscription under a false name and address? (Is that even possible? Or do you have to pay with a credit card?)
Tivo is neither "good guy" nor "bad guy" - Tivo is a company, an entity that exists solely and amorally to make money.
I'm not cynical, but I always read the fine print and am capable of critical thought. Tivo (and ReplayTV, for that matter) long ago made it clear that their business models had nothing to do with selling boxes. This became even clearer when they started licensing their technology to other manufacturers. Given that the boxes are sold at a loss (or breakeven at best), and that the type and granularity of data the boxes are capable of collecting is far more valuable in real dollars than the monthly fee they're collecting indicates to me that they've got another revenue stream in the works -selling viewing habits.
I do my best to warn people of the risks here. When a Supreme Court appointment's video rental habits were publicized, congress passed a law expxlicitly protecting the privacy of such records. (This is why you have to *opt in* to such programs as "Blockbuster Rewards" to trade your data for "free" gifts.) Back when Ms. Lewinsky's book buying habits were subpoenaed by Mr. Starr, I had been warning people about buying with credit or debit cards (which make such data collection possible). Not everyone is going to be investigated on a national scale, but one never knows when one's data trail may be important. Perhaps to an insurance company (surfed any medical sites that use DoubleClick or Akamai?), perhaps to an ex-spouse in a divorce proceeding or custody battle (surfed any *ahem* other sites? Watching late nite Cinemax on your Tivo? Watching lots of TV, period? Maybe it was your fault/you're not a good parent), perhaps to a future employer, etc. Even people who aren't planning on running for office should be aware at how their personal preferences are collected and mined and can be used against them.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Really though, will they give me back my money for the TIVO then?
Rader
This is the sorta thing me and a buddy were talking about last night.
We determined that there are two types of conspiracy theorists. Those who like reading about them, and believing only bits and pieces as being the truth, and those who go around wearing tinfoil lined clothing.
Those who believe this is an evil plot by TiVo to take over the world are completely in the second category.
All data collected by the Tivo is encrypted at the source and then sent to Tivo's servers. They do not know what channels a particular person is watching. Only that a person is watching a particular channel.
The very fact that TiVo has a Privacy Officer is a boon for me. How many other PVRs have one? They are committed to keeping individual information private. Before the change in the policy they couldn't even share subscription numbers information to the producers of the equipment.
Runestar
...but as I recall, Federal Regs allow you to opt of out their sharing of your information with other companies for the purpose of marketing. Now, this opt out can, and should, be extended to include TiVo's partners; this is, if you say TiVo can't sell your info, then neither can their partners.
Of course, that's the idealist in me speaking again...
NecroPuppy
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Godot called. He said he'd be late.
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
Summary of TiVo's Privacy Promise to You
TiVo knows how important personal privacy is to you, so we have established strict policies to help protect the privacy of your personal information. In summary, we promise that:
No one outside your home, not even the TiVo staff or any of TiVo's computer systems, will ever have access to any of your personal viewing information without your prior consent. Your preferences are personal. The TiVo Service has no way of knowing what shows you have rated with "Thumbs Up" or "Thumbs Down." If you don't want even your anonymous viewing information (information that does not identify you or your household) used in any way, simply tell us by calling our toll-free telephone number (1-877-FOR-TiVo).
This is in fact repeated a few more times in the promise, that "If you do not wish this information disclosed, call our toll-free number." So yes, you can opt out.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
John
John
That's like telling a junkie to "Stop using that Heroin stuff."
I don't necessarily like having my personal information floating everwhere, but if you read their privacy policy, it doesn't seem to be such a bad thing.
That's why they have a toll-free phone number: 1-877-FOR-TIVO (1-877-367-8486)
-- Anne Marie
Subject: An Important Message on Privacy from Tivo
From: Matthew Zinn, TiVo's Chief Privacy Officer
Thu 10/5
Dear Tivo Subscriber:
Since our founding, we've been dedicated to protecting your privacy. We created the industry's first privacy policy, which was predicated on the simple concept that you, the TV viewer, should be in control over your personal television viewing information.
As we've grown, we've come to the point where we need to update our privacy policy to make sure that the spirit of our founding privacy pledge extends globally to cover our business practices in international markets, as well as our growing roster of business partners.
The purpose of this communication is to notify you that we've updated our Privacy Policy. The most critical components of our policy remain in effect -- no one outside of your home will ever have access to your personal TV viewing information without your prior consent.
The changes focus on how we work with our partners. In cases where TiVo and one or more of our partner companies together service your account, we want to ensure that your privacy is protected. For example, if you are a customer of one of our hardware manufacturing partners (such as Philips or Sony), or one of our service partners (such as DIRECTV or AOL), we may share your account information with that partner and want to ensure that the same strict guidelines we set for ourselves are maintained. We believe the new TiVo Privacy Policy accomplishes this.
You can read the updated TiVo Privacy Policy by visiting www.tivo.com/care/ or if you don't have Internet access, you can call us toll-free at (877) 367-8486 and we will mail you a copy.
TiVo recognizes that your trust in our Service is paramount to our success. As such, we're very proud of our stance on this critical issue and we're dedicated to delivering on it.
Matthew Zinn
Chief Privacy Officer
--
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Look, your TV viewing habits are valuable, way more valuable than $10/month. Tivo is only out to protect your privacy inasmuch as early-adopters are sensitive to such things - as soon as they can get away with it, their privacy policy *will change* to allow them to sell these data. This is the first step in this direction.
The best part - even if you cancel the service when their privacy policy changes, they still have your old viewing data, which is still saleable and will still be sold, regardless of your protestations.
Don't believe the hype - it all comes back to pimping your eyeballs. And they have the cojones to charge you for the privilege, how sweet of them!
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
If I decide I don't want to pay for gasoline anymore, will the oil companies give back the $24,000 that I paid for my vehicle since it will no longer be useful without fuel? No? Neither will TiVo, considering they didn't make any money on the hardware sale in the first place.
But seriously, the market for used TiVo's on eBay is quite healthy, I'm sure you'd have no problem getting at least 66% of your investment back.
I'm not sure I agree with this - somebody can steal some money from you, and then you know you're out that amount of money.
Once somebody starts distributing your private information though, that information can be spread through goddess-knows-how-many databases, mailing lists & whatnot, all w/o your knowledge or possibility of intervention. At least the money that was stolen from you is limited by its purchasing power - your private information can be copied & corrupted mercilessly.
(I guess this is the other edge of the two-edged sword of near zero-cost information-distribution - the same technology which enables MP3s & movies to be passed around as digital data allows organizations to collect & distribute our personal information just as easily.)
I think this would be a good idea but don't know if there's anyone with the resources to undertake the task. If you could make a business out of it, like maybe Enonymous' Privacy Ratings site, then that might work. I'd monitor it if there was such a site. Maybe someone would want to run something like FuckedCompany.Com but concentrate on slippery privacy practices.
I've found that PrivacyDigest and WebVeil do a pretty good job of keeping abreast of the news. Privacy Digest is better because it is more comprehensive, but WebVeil is selective, seeming to focus on privacy for consumers specifically rather than everything that is privacy under the sun. Otherwise, I just pay attention to and filter what the paranoids are saying in alt.privacy or check on the privacy issues section of Yahoo and Wired.
"I do not avoid women, Mandrake. But I do deny them my essence"
CEDIA is the show for custom audio-video installers. At least one of the Tivo units will have not one but two DirecTV tuners, so you can watch and record at the same time. And the recording quality is miles ahead of standard Tivo and ReplayTV units, as it records the already compressed MPEG stream as it comes from the satellite. Obviously, the quality of the encoder at the DirecTV head end is far better than the cheap chip in the consumer unit - not to mention that this avoids the awful necessity of decoding and re-encoding an MPEG stream.
But I have to confess that the best picture quality I saw was not from Sony's or Philips's TIVO units, but from the RCA DirecTV box with software from Microsoft. No, I have no idea why MS is wanting to get into this market either, other than to try to get WebTV into more homes.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
Why on earth would you think they would stop selling your contact/marketting/demographic information after you discontinue their service?
You may be through with the past. But the past isn't through with you.
Speak truth to power.
[scene: arm chair, TV flickering, TiVo hard drive whirring]
Narration: While I zip through the TiVo recording of my favorite porno movie "Debbie Does Dallas", I can finally relax after a hard days nite [soft Beatle corresponding background tune].
[scene: TiVo Monitoring Centre]
Marketing Guru: Hot damn, another sex-paying viewer. Our partners will pay us thru the nose for this data.
Assistant: Uh-ho, ummmph, he's underaged.
Marketing Guru: Oh sh*t! Shut it down, shut it down!
[scene: beeping Carnivore Alert Panel, FBI H.A.R.D. Center, Ft. Worth]
Agent 1: Underage viewing of porno at 412 Black Gold Avenue.
Agent 2: SWAT dispatched
[scene: outside TiVo HQ]
SWAT: [megaphone] Come out with your hands up in the air.
If they can share your account information with their partners, and their partners don't have a privacy policy, then they can indirectly share your information with anyone they want.
This brings up several important points:
Are your viewing habbits considered part of your account information?
If you are concerned about privacy, then you should get a TiVo-branded unit, not a partner-branded unit, though this means you may miss out on some added benefits of hybrid hardware (i.e., built-in DSS tuner or AOL Web-TVish Internet access).
Having said that, what we need is a law that forces companies to honor privacy agreements even through mergers, bankruptcies, and changes in corporate philosophy.
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Computeri non cogitant, ergo non sunt
Is Tivo going to let you opt-out? If not, maybe they'll let you keep your privacy for a price. Although it looks like right now, the Tivo policy is "Anonymous Only". I'm still glad I've got the Dish Network box instead. I don't have to leave it plugged into my phone line, or plug it in at all. That's the only way I can be sure that it's really one way. I'd rather just have my personal recording bundled with my satellite service then have my TV tastes auctioned off.
Photos of bits of the past hiding in the present: afiler.com
Is there a website out there that tracks these types of things - like TiVo and Amazon changing their privacy policies, sneaky EULAs, spyware, 'phoning home,' web bugs, etc.? There's just so much of that crap to wade through any more (which is what they're relying on), it would be nice if there was a central reference point. I know it doesn't mean I can trust anyone who doesn't 'make the list,' but it would be a nice starting point, anyway. The Slashdot privacy topic helps, but isn't as easy to reference specific questions.
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
Mainly, this:
4.3 Contractors and Third Party Service Providers. We use contractors to help with some of our operations. Some of these contractors will have access to our databases of Subscriber Information on a temporary basis for specific tasks. TiVo also uses third parties to help with certain aspects of its operations, which may require disclosure of your Subscriber Information to them. For example, TiVo may use a third party to communicate with you (via telephone, email, or letter) about your account or upcoming features or services, to mail rebate checks, to process and collect payment for your TiVo Service via your credit card, to generate demographic profiles based on Subscriber Information of current TiVo subscribers, and to perform other work that we may need to outsource. TiVo contractually binds these contractors and third parties to use your Subscriber Information only as necessary to perform the services they are asked to perform; such contractors and third parties are legally liable for misuse of Subscriber Information.
This is in order to let DirecTV directly bill the DirecTivo users for the Tivo service. With the old privacy policy, they couldn't do that.
That's it, fellas. Your viewing info (that everyone worries about) is still completely anonymous, and only used in an aggregate form.
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
The Sept. 2000 one IS the new one. The old one was April, 1999.
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
4.2 Manufacturing Partners. We reserve the right to disclose to our hardware manufacturing partners (for example, Sony, Philips and Thomson) the Account Information and Anonymous Viewing Information of subscribers who use a Receiver made by that manufacturing partner, as well as Personal Viewing Information (but only if you have expressly consented to our collection and disclosure of Personal Viewing Information) we collect from the Receivers manufactured by that manufacturing partner. However, TiVo contractually binds our manufacturing partners to comply with the provisions of this Privacy Promise; our manufacturing partners are legally liable for misuse of Subscriber Information.
'Nuff said.
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Really, you should read the policy before saying anything about it. Personally identifiable viewing information is _not_ part of your account information.
The partners are bound by TiVo's privacy policy for information they receive from TiVo.
And ther are no, to my knowledge, TiVo units that are not partner-branded, given that all "regular" units are manufactured by Sony or Phillips. It is my impression from reading the policy that Sony and Phillips count as partners under the privacy policy.
Of course, if you sell your TiVo, whoever buys it will have to get their own subscription. It's the subscription revenue they care about. If you really want to show them how important your privacy is, blow the thing up and post a video of it on the web.
Was mich nicht umbringt macht mich hungrig.