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Sun's (un)official response to .NET
siliconghetto writes "Sun decided that to post a response to .NET on it's Java home page. According to Madhu Siddalingaiah, "Microsoft is spinning [.Net] as innovative new platform but what they're really doing is giving developers an updated set of handcuffs."
"
Not true. CORBA has bindings right now for just about as many languages as .NET is planning to support, and these systems can all interoperate. In fact, Java's network and component specifications are going towards a more language neutral format with RMI over IIOP and the next generation CORBA specs and products that allow IIOP access to EJBs and deployment of EJB-like services in any language.
I know this is true because I write Java applications in a three tier system that use C++ components in the middle tier and PL/SQL code in the database tier. We also have Perl code that calls Java components in the middle tier.
There are also many languages that can be compiled into Java bytecode and use Java classes and services.
The real facts are that Java probably gives you more choices and makes it easier to use systems written in other languages and on other platforms than any other language. (C may be slightly more ubiquitous, but much more difficult)
Maybe they already have.
Sun Has Declared They will now be running their own system in response to .NET.
.ORG!!!
Not to mention that it is very simple to use an RPC over HTTP using XML for interchange model, and in doing so, remove any laguage dependancies. At my last job, we used HTTP RPC to call into a ProvideX system from a J2EE system. If we needed to call into Microsoft, it would have been no problem.
It is very easy to pick an RPC architecture that is friendly to disparate platforms.
-no broken link
I'm sorry, but until I see proof that C# and or .NET is actually up and running...
You may obtain a pre-beta C# compiler andAND someone shows me how superior it really is to everything that has ever been
When new technology is announced, you should assess it for yourself - each project is different. If you program primarily in UNIX, then you will have little need forSorry to sound flamebaitish
Apology accepted.-jerdenn
Microsoft.NYET
My company does this, and we do distribute our software as "frozen" executables. This compiles everything needed to bytecodes and produces a single executable that is statically linked with the interpreter.
Not exactly like Java bytecodes + JNI + JVM, but close enough. Unless you know what you're looking for, the end result is indistinguishable from a compiled C/C++ app.
The guy in charge of Software at my company analyzed the bytecodes and concluded that reverse engineering them is nearly as hard as for Java, although there are definitely some ops that are less primitive.
PS: Look for freeze.py in the python distribution.
What no-one seems to be talking about with the Common Language Runtime (CLR) is how M$ can potentially write a CLR engine for other OSes. With that, developers would have many language choices that could run in an OO environment on many platforms.
So with Java you get one language on lots of platforms (and lots of VMs per platform, I might add) and with .NET you have the potential for many languages on many platforms.
I was actually at PDC2000 this year and saw all of this stuff up-close.
I love Java, C# is cool too. Either way the developer has a great tool to work from.
I'm a 2000 man.
But Sun is missing the point. It's possible that they've gotten so miffed with the slow Java adaptation of Java that they view everything as a threat. .net is exactly what they say Microsoft 'claims' it to be, however - an enhancement to bring Visual Basic/C++ up to speed with modern times. It allows whichever language you're writing in to access all _windows_ API calls.
.net is the solution rather than Java. If you're a Netware Guru, for example, compare NWAdmin32 to ConsoleONE. (Win32 vs. Java) They do the same thing, but if all I had to use was ConsoleONE, I'd quickly go insane waiting for my P500 or higher to open a dialog box.
Sun's point, in the article is that Java allows you to access the same API calls, and they'll function on any machine imaginable, which is true. But if you're going to be programming FOR a Windows box (and, last time I checked, developing code to run native in an OS was still the way your program would run the fastest)
Perhaps I should change my login to slashdot to 'Devil's Advocate'. =) Java has it's niche, though. And it does what it was intended to do - make code HIGHLY transportable. But you can't outrun native code, no matter how good your universal language is.
Check this out to see where MS stands on .NET.
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
...Microsoft is spinning [.Net] as innovative new platform but what they're really doing is giving developers an updated set of handcuffs...
:)
.NET is an effort to help traditional Visual C++ and Visual Basic programmers catch up with the times....
.NET platform as a whole will handed over a standards body, so standardization can only exist at the language level....
.Net. M$ has already given Corel the responsibility for building the Framework for Other OS's including Linux. Obviously it would be benefit them financially, but we are not tied down to one OS ultimately.
.Net framework over to other OS. I would believe it when I see it, but efforts are underway. So if you dont know what you are talking about then SHUT UP..and dont mislead poor tech junkies out there.
.NET platform must run on Windows, and Windows alone....
.NET is to perpetuate platform lock-in. ....
:)
....
Yeah Right.. The same one Java Developers wear
..Essentially,
Tell me whats wrong with that Bozo !!.. Both these languages has still a huge market share than anything else in the world. And most of the existing systems currently being ported and rewritten to other languages are developed in it. What Microsoft is doing is trying not to lose market share, and in turn come up with a Loosely coupled architecture for integrating and deploying heterogenous systems. Yup..Flame Me.
....There are no third party vendors of ASP+. In contrast there many vendors of JSPTM solutions for a variety of platforms...
First off all, JSP was a ripoff from ASP. ASP has a much bigger developer base and ASP developers has been crying for better features and thats where ASP+ comes in. Now ASP+ will use Visual Basic, C#, and possibly other languages for code snippets. All get compiled into native code through the common language runtime (as opposed to being interpreted each time, like ASPs). So you could mix and match languages and not be tied to Java alone.
...Microsoft has not suggested or even hinted that the
First of all, Sun doesnt work well with IBM or anyone else in opening up Java. Now they cry wolf when MS doesnt open up the Framework For
..The Java language, VM, and APIs are all vendor neutral. There is no vendor lock in....
Yeah right..except that you are locked in to one language who still dont deliver in terms of Portability.
.....The key difference is that the Java platform is a mature cross-platform solution with no direct ties to any underlying operating system.....
Where does this guy live ? Antartica ? Corel would work with M$ in porting the
...This means that any nontrivial application built on the
Tsk..tsk.. This guy just dont realise..does he..
...Apparently, the underlying goal of
Pure Unadulterated FUD.. No wonder since SUN sponsors this guy's Chopper Trips
....Sun is not the only vendor of the Java platform. IBM, Symantec, Apple, as well
Well didnt we all hear sometime back that these other vendors were planning to liberate Java from Sun ? tsk..tsk..
...Third parties have inspected the Java platform's publicly-available source code for security holes.....
True.. But Sun should rather worry about closing the holes in Sun Solaris 2.7 before they comment on Windoze.
Ultimately, no Interpreted language would ever handle a candle to something that compiles to native code. M$ is leveraging that to provide integration across heterogenous platforms through the CLR. Like it or not..its going to happen and thats what make sense.
My two cents.. Thanks for reading.
Rapid Nirvana
I dual boot Linux and Windows... but in the programs I've been developing lately, I've been booting more to Linux using PERL than to Windows using VisualBasic. Why, when VB is set up with more of the functions I desire, would I do that? Simple: Microsoft locks the user into inflexible paradigms of "device" metaphors, making it nearly useless in several circumstances.
I went from DirectX to OpenGL back when MS was pushing "vertex buffers" and "callback routines" just to draw a single triangle on the screen. The device metaphor was crippling. In PERL, I can write a generic script whose output can easily be diverted to console, file, or device. In VBA, the object modelling constrains you to cast your functions against specific application objects... bleh.
Microsoft got their start in business licensing MS-BASIC to every home computer they could. Once they started the Windows gig, they said "Empower the user?!? What were we thinking!" Now their VBasic bundle is only found in applications, and empowerment comes at a price.
I cannot fathom their adversarial stance over their own customers. I believe the backlash is coming sooner rather than later.
The early assessment is correct, and Madhu Siddalingaiah agrees: C# and CLR might be portable -- and sure, it's possible to port them to other operating systems -- but that would still be completely useless, because the .NET framework involves a lot of API's that are, and will be, only available on Windows. The core class libraries in Java, on the other hand, are available anywhere the Java runtime is available.
.NET framework is designed for this goal: "Write once (on a Windows machine), run anywhere (as long as it's a Windows machine)."
Make no mistake about it: the
Probably the only useful bit of "portability" the Microsoft CLR will achieve, is that it gives them a migration strategy for upcoming 64-bit Windows. It allows developers to write on Win32 and run on Win64. Oh, how portable!
--
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the statement 'write once, test everywhere' is still much in vogue.
... clean up your own house before you start tearing down someone elses.
Now, I don't write much Java, being a Sun sys admin and all I tend to use Perl more because I need closer access to the OS. And the few I have written have not been GUI oriented and would probably run on all platforms. But it seems that if Sun really wants to get into the 'one language for all platforms' that Madhu Siddalingaiah says, then they still have a lot of work to do for anything but trivial programs.
For example, a current program our developers are working on uses the Sun plugin for IE. The same Java applet performs differently in Windows 98, Windows NT, and Windows 2000. And I don't even want to talk about the problems they had with the Netscape browser....
Come on Sun
Microsoft, can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em....
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Sounds like you've never programmed for rapid development or on a budget before. VB is plenty powerful for what most people need and takes a third the time to code in my experience. As someone who started out gung-ho C++ and who writes at least ten lines of Java a day, I feel pretty safe saying that VB is one of the best things that could have come along for businesses that want an application up quickly that performs acceptably. C++ may have a performance edge, but when combined with the latency of your network or the Internet, it doesn't make a bit of difference. Plus, the increased control you have with C++ or Java doesn't really gain you anything you can't accomplish more easily with VB, just more effort with greatly diminishing returns.
As for platform independence, I think it's highly overrated by slashdot readers. All it really does is force you to leave out advanced features and code for the weakest link in the system. Don't get me wrong, I have to swallow the pill and dumb down a lot of the work I do so it will run correctly on a Mac or Netscape to reach all of the target audience sometimes, but much 'sweeter' applications can be developed in LESS time if you consentrate on a target platform.
Lastly on platform independence, just realize that Java isn't any more platform independent than anything else, it's just got an interpreter that has been written for each platform! If a new platform comes out, it won't run Java at all until someone writes an interpreter for it and when new releases of Java come out Macs and other platforms lag behind on the new releases so you STILL get code that doesn't work everywhere.
Microsoft utilized VB to allow one easy to use, fast language to work across the most popular platform. I think they did more for application development with that move than all the effect Java has had being just another language to learn that still can only be used in certain places.
--- Don't be a player hater: I meta-mod ALL negative mods as Unfair.
Umm... I guess I'm getting somewhat tired of people commenting on .Net without really taking a critical look at it.
.Net they can communicate together.
A core basis for it's existence is Cross-Platform support. Microsoft understands that companies do have multiple systems in their environments which need to work together.
Unlike Sun, Microsoft is not suggesting that you should write all your software using Java. Instead they are saying... write your software with whatever language you want and then using
Microsoft's goal is to have services which run on Win2k servers talking to services running on Mainframes or Unix servers.
This happens today, but you need to devise some custom solution to make them talk with each other. Microsoft is simply providing a generic framework for you, so you can focus instead on the solution details.
The .NET platform is an improvement for Visual C++ and Visual Basic programmers, but it is yet another proprietary Microsoft platform which will tie the developer to Windows, albeit possibly a .NET-ized notion of Windows.
.NET is the exact opposite. It's purpose is to allow developers to actually use COM and the Windows API without being shackled to VB and Visual C++.
.NET to support the following languages APL, CAML, Cobol, Haskell, Mercury, ML, Oberon, Oz, Pascal, Perl, Python, Scheme, and Smalltalk. In fact, Rational is planning to create a Java-language compiler that targets the .NET common language runtime. The details are available on the MSDN site.
I love Java, but this is simply bullshit. The main purpose of
Currently there are plans for
Obviously this scares Sun and that's why they are publishing this propaganda because it begins to show the truth that Java shackles developers by forcing them to use the Java(TM) platform for all development in all three tiers of a client-server application if they plan to use the Java™ language for any aspect development (yes, I know about JNI, but it is currently subpar).
Second Law of Blissful Ignorance
This sucks.. this is one discussion really close to home for me *and* I have moderator points today.
.NET CLR (take a look at ActiveState, they seem to be in bed with MS - there's a Python .NET beta ongoing right now).
.NET too. (Or maybe not, this might be pure FUD, but SOMEONE will do it, even if Rational drags their feet.)
;+)
Post or moderate? Post or moderate?
POST!
Don't like Java's (too low) level of abstraction? Tired of being stuck on Windows because of your employers obsession with VB?
Convert them to Python! They'll be happy how fast you get things done AND they'll love the easy portability to Linux, Solaris, Macs, etc.
It just makes sense. Today, I can even run Python in a JVM. I can run Python in the
If Microsoft never ports the CLR to OSs other than Windows, you STILL win.
Now, here's the kicker: Java will be available for
Now, observant people will point out that regardless of the fact that you would be using Python or Java, the fact that you're using it in a JVM or CLR naturally means you will use the libraries in those environments. And that's true. However, it's nothing a good designer couldn't mitigate to a large extent (not perfectly I know) using the GoF strategy pattern and other abstraction techniques. Furthermore, most of Python's standard libraries are already ported to the JVM. It's just a matter of time before they show up for the CLR too (and for Java too).
Also, learning both sets of libraries and both Java and Python will simply be good for your career. You'll honestly be able to claim multi-architectural proficiencies, from the comfort of a high-level development language (or at least a "higher-level" development language in the case of Java).
Now, anyone who can poke substantial holes in this will be doing me a favor. My general career direction in the near future will be Python/Java heavy because of my assumptions above.
Just to clarify something: I approach this purely as a corporate applications designer and developer. I have no interest in systems-level stuff, embedded systems, real-time systems, etc. Very little of the above even matters for those area (although there are embeddable versions of Python AND Java, as well as a hard real time version of Java).
Thanks in advance for your rabid attacks!
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!