Living-Donor Nerve Transplant

Over at CNN there is an AP report which might remind you alternately of stories by William Gibson and Mary Shelley: Doctors in Texas have just transplanted nerves from a living donor (in this case the mother of the recipient, an 8-month old baby) to replace ones damaged at birth. The operation itself was successful, but whether the nerve will successfully carry signals between the infant's arms and brain won't be known for a while. Seems like we can now transplant just about everything short of the brain in one form or other -- skin, bone marrow, major organs.

Comments

Nerve transplant

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem in this case is that the nerves of the left arm were torn from the spinal cord. So the hookup had to be from nerves in the right arm across to the left which is longer than they could have gotten from any nerves in the baby. The transplanted nerves will only provide a conduit down which the baby's own nerve cells will grow at ~ 1 mm. per day. The mother's own nerve cells will play no part in the process - only the structure through which her nerve cells passed are important and will provide the conduit. Since the baby is so small his own nerves will arrive at their destination well before the 2 year time limit after which a nerve transplant wouldn't work. Whether this procedure using a live donor will work better than a cadaver remains to be seen. The problem with nerve transplants in general is the scar formation where the nerves are hooked together which impedes the growth of the nerve cells. A retired neurosurgeon

Re:Nerve transplant

[techwatcher]

I was appalled to read that this nerve damage occurs in about 1 in 1000 births -- was this an error, or is this figure accurate? Does it occur primarily because of the use of forceps, or is it a result of the natural squeezing the baby goes through?

Meaning of Life

[DunbarTheInept]

The Meaning of Life

Part 5

Live Organ Donation

...
Just Remember that you're standing / On a planet that's evolving ... etc

Re: Brain Transplantation

[Mindwarp]

Seems like we can now transplant just about everything short of the brain

Actually, there's a company offering brain transplants here. I've had it done three times now, and I've NUT n0TiSSeDD aY-KnEe sIyD FekTs YeTTT.



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Re:We can replace the brain actually

[Mindwarp]

I remember that experiment being reported. I believe the biggest problem was that both monkeys died within hours of the procedure being carried out.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm having a head-swap I'm going to want a life expetancy a little longer than "maybe he'll make it 'til lunch-time"!

--

Re:now and then

[Mindwarp]

Well Mrs. Smith, it appears that either your husbands new body is rejecting his head, or your husbands head is rejecting his new body. We're unsure as to which one to amputate.

--

Re:Which raises the question:

[pangloss]

I think the original poster's question was intended in the sense of a classic problem in personal identity: If person A has his brain transplanted into the body of person B (B-body-person), after the operation, would the B-body-person be person A or person B from before the operation, or neither?

I think a lot of people would call it a body transplant (and not a brain transplant)--leaning toward the conclusion that B-body-person is indeed person A, because of the sameness of brain.

There's a collection called Personal Identity edited by John Perry that covers a wide range of problems like this if anyone's so interested ;) I've got this on the brain, so to speak, since I'm reading Slashdot to put off writing a draft of my final on Personal Identity :P

clarification?

[pangloss]

In the article, one of the doctors is quoted saying:

The infant's good nerves from the right side of his body will grow slowly through the mother's nerves over to his left arm. Her nerves are not providing any function. They are serving as conduits, pathways to direct the child's own nerves to grow back together.

So, the transplanted nerves can help damaged (torn, in this case) repair themselves, while serving no actual nerve functions? I didn't think nerves could self-repair, but then, IANAD by any stretch of the imagination. However, this would suggest real hope for paralysis victims (as the result of certain kinds of accidents/nerve damage). Or am I misunderstanding the doctor's statement?

Re:clarification?

[Platinum Dragon]

I didn't think nerves could self-repair, but then, IANAD by any stretch of the imagination. However, this would suggest real hope for paralysis victims (as the result of certain kinds of accidents/nerve damage). Or am I misunderstanding the doctor's statement?

No, you've about got it dead on. I first learned of this technique several years ago. Tests were performed on mice, where nerves were strung between two ends of a damaged nerve bundle, providing a pathway for the nerves to regenerate.

The nerve bundle being regenerated was the spinal cord.

The operation worked; the mice regained some movement in their hind legs.

Hope springs eternal, for good reason.
-------------

Re:clarification?

[dbarclay10]

Yeah, there's a pretty common misconception that nerves can't repair themselves. There's also another misconception that a human brain can't/doesn't repair/grow after a certain age.

Both are wrong. Brain development slows to an absolute crawl, comparitively speaking, after youth. But it still grows and changes.

Now, nerve cells in the rest of the body generally don't repair themselves, but that's not a hard and fast rule. For instance, pain receptors are hooked up by nerve cells, and when you loose a chunk of skin(including muscule beneath it), you can still feel pain afterwards.

Dave

'Round the firewall,
Out the modem,
Through the router,
Down the wire,

Re:It's night on impossible

[QuantumG]

nanotechnology.. who cares. it's a philosophical question.

now and then

[QuantumG]

I asked it then and I'll ask it again, if I die in a violent accident and they get me to the hospital fast enough, can they graft my head onto some recently departed (and not as well off) body and keep my ass alive until they figure out how to graft my spinal cord too? So I get to be a vegetable for 25 years instead of being dead?

Re:Why use a live donor ?

[homegrown]

In another post on ths topic I described a technique my dad recently used that required transferring 1/5 of the nerves leading to the patient's arm to the other one. According to the results gained so far the patients had no loss in movement or sensitivity.
I don't know what nerves (and how much of them) they used, but if they do it right it shouldn't be a problem.
They probably used cadavers because they don't need treatment afterwards 8) and for legal reasons.

nerve regrowth

[anethema]

As was mentioned in previous posts, the mothers nerves werent meant to carry signals but to provide a healthy path for the childs nerves to grow. most people believe nerves dont grow back at all. i know someone who had their finger nearly cut off. the doctors re-attached it, but nerves were of course severed. part of the nerves were missing from the saw cut and the doctors said that the nerves would grow back properly (hopefully) at the rate of about a millimeter a month. his finger had no sensation for a while, but about 4 months later, he could feel his skin again.

Even weirder

[Galvatron]

From the article:

in most cases, the nerves were taken from cadavers.

I find this even more amazing. I know, I know, the implanted nerves just act as conduits for regrowth, but still, being able to implant nerves coming from dead people is pretty amazing. Reminds me of science fiction books where they talk about criminals being executed by dissassembly (no dissassemble, Stephanie!), and raise the question of whether the convict is truly dead.

I know, I'm reading too much into the implanting of dead nerves, but I just got up, so I'm easily impressed right now.

Hmm... Do you mean HEINLEIN?

[mangu]

If you misspell this name it means you are missing some of the best parts of English literature. Try to read also "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Stranger in a Strange Land".

The story in "I Will Fear No Evil" is a bit more complex than you mention, actually he was able to remember a lot from the body donor's memory too. And the donor was a woman; this book is actually a feminist manifesto, where an old male finds himself inside the body of a young woman.

You may not agree with everything Heinlein wrote, for instance, I find the militarism in "Starship Troopers" a bit too much, but you will often find yourself thinking new ideas when you read his books.

Not A Brain Transplant...

[istartedi]

...but close. Hasn't there been some rather controversial research involving "stem cells" from fetuses? IIRC, they can be placed in certain parts of the brain, where they will differentiate into neurons.

Arm transplant

[Hadlock]

this is all interesting and everything, but so far no results (obviously, as it just happened). The problem with these stories is that there is rarely ever a follow up. Remember the quintuplets a while back that were all the rave? Where are they now? More importantly, how did that hand/arm transplant go with that prisoner that they had an article in Popular Science a couple months back? Anybody know what ever happened to that guy?

Re:Arm transplant

[Protocull]

Two arm transplants were recently carried out. The first one was on the ex-prisoner, who lied and said he was a businessman, when he had infact lost his arm in a prison accident. Well, he now hates his 'arm' and wants them to take it off. He says it is too pink, too long and just hangs there (hey, doesn't that give you an idea?...) Anyway, the doctors say that his problem is psychological not physical. He did not carry out the post-op treatment plan, and did not take the anti-rejection drugs as he said they had bad side effects. I think that his mind is rejecting the arm, as much as his brain.

The second operation was on a man who was transplanted the arm of a executed murderer. He and the arm have taken to each other much better, as he followed the doctors' orders, and he can now pick things up etc with it.

But it all sounds SO Vincent Price to me, what with all these prisoners and murderers having body parts grafted on to them. Creepy.

...been done before...

[studerby]

The identical procedure was done about a year ago at Texas Children's Hospital, just a few blocks away, by a different surgical team, and was reported in the Texas Medical Center's newspaper (my wife illustrated the article). I think the origin site of the donor nerve was different, but that's not a significant difference.

Apparently, science journalism isn't keeping up with reality very well, though I've noticed that a few articles on the recent transplant have been corrected to mention the earlier procedure. I bet TCH's PR people are raising a ruckus...

Why use a live donor ?

[tmark]

The article notes that this procedure has been carried out before in the US, with tissue from cadavers. why use a live donor who is going to suffer side-effects later? Could it be purely proof-of-concept, or is it just a coincidence that the donor here happens to be from Mexico, and not the US ?

If anyone knows the rationale for using a live donor, please fill us in. I can imagine there would be some reasons to want to use live donors, but the article just doesn't say.

Re:Cross-species Nerve Transplants

[green_globs]

I can't help but think of MST3K and the Atomic Brain.

wow...lets just hope that never comes true. i shudder at the thought of the brain of an old nasty lady in a young ladies body. (but it isn't really inhumain, because the ditzy blond didn't have much of a brain anyways.)

We can replace the brain actually

[__aakpxi9117]

There was an experiement done about a year ago I believe. Using two monkeys they successfully transplanted the heads of the two onto each other's bodies. While we obvious can't test the minds of the monkeys as well as we can humans, it appeared they functioned fine and still remembered things such as how solve a certain puzzle. Amazing if you ask me, but it's just one step closer to humans living for several hundreds of years.

Wow...

[gik]

Due to an accident at birth, I had extensive nerve damage stemming from the back of my neck down through my left shoulder and arm.
As a result, my left arm is smaller, and significantly less able than the right one.

It's hard sometimes to do everyday things, but you get by.

Now to see that nerve regeneration (or stimulation) may become reality, I feel excited. Hopefully, kids in the future will not have to go through what many have gone through in the past.

One question, though...

WHERE DO I SIGN UP?!?!?!?

hehe

Living-donor brain transplant

[Russ Nelson]

I'm surprised that people haven't suggested that there has been a number of living-donor brain transplants, going on in secret. You've met the donors, of course. They can't be allowed out in public, but in order to give them some human contact, they let the donors post to Slashdot.
-russ

Which raises the question:

[jmv]

Seems like we can now transplant just about everything short of the brain

Would you call it "brain transplant" or "body transplant"?

this poor kid....

[ndpatel]

[the mother]...will have permamnent but slight numbness on the sides of her feet...

not only will his mom hit him with the whole "pain of birth" argument when his room is messy, she'll light her feet on fire to drive home the point of what an ungrateful little bastard he is.....

wow, they just keep getting younger

[geoffeg]

(in this case the mother of the recipient, an 8-month old baby)

I know the saying "Kids having kids" but an 8 month old mother is just wrong!

Geoff

My facial nerves had to be fixed...

[antdude]

That was an interesting story. When I had my cranial surgery (due to my locked jaw -- had to open my jaw -- it was so bad that I couldn't stick my tongue out), the doctors had to break some nerves to fix this (from my neck and right side of my head near the ear area).

After the complex surgery, the right side of my face were irressponsive (i.e. couldn't move and feel). That included my right eye where I couldn't move my eye lids (not even close fully).

After about two months, I went to another surgery to fix these damaged facial nerves. The doctors fixed this by connecting working nerves to the damaged ones. Basically, they were rerouting these signals as if you were rerouting a network.

Some of my broken nerves are currently recovered, but it will take years to recovered almost fully (not 100%).

You can read more details from here.

NOT a real nerve transplant

[Sara Chan]

If you go to the trouble of actually reading the CNN story, you find out that it is not a real nerve transplant. Nerves in the infant's left arm were damaged, and the mother's nerves were put inside the infant, but ...

"Her nerves are not providing any function. They are serving as conduits, pathways to direct the child's own nerves to grow back together."

(emphasis added)

The mother's nerves do not carry any of the electro-chemical signals that the infant could use to move or feel its arm.

______________
"Is it a book you would even wish your wife or your servants to read?" --prosecuting lawyer, for the British government, arguing against permitting publication of D. H. Lawrence's "Lady Chatterly's Lover" (1960)

Nerves?

[B00yah]

That's gonna make it hard for the mother to say, "You're getting on my nerves"...if her kid's got 'em...