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Project Pengachu: Handheld Linux for $50?
ContinuousPark writes: "The folks at the MIT Media Lab have been working on a $50 handheld Linux computer. 900MHz, 1mW, 200Kbps peering or hub-and-spoke internet gateways for wireless mode and a RS-485 wired LAN: 1Mbps multidrop. Loads of software on less than 1Mb footprint. They've called it the Pengachu Project: Cheap Wireless Linux for Everyone. Read about it here, an article on the kickoff event for the Digital Nations project."
... will it electrocute anybody who it doesn't know as a security measure, just like that another *chu we all despise.
J
Most consumers don't care about which OS their hand held toys are running on. This little gadget may do well with the nerds that visit this site, but a $50 toy is more likely to attract those that can't afford anything better.
I'm just wondering; will this thing cause interference with 900Mhz CPUs ?
Anyone ?
Just so long as they also add the "Wrong -1" moderation option. I've seen so many posts that I've wanted to mod down because they contain information that is just plain factually incorrect but can't because that's not an option. Maybe they could call it "Misinformative -1", but whatever it's called it's desperately needed.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
up up down down , left right left right, b, a, select, start, and it cheats on your tax return for you!
Umm, a LOT of OSs are small. If all they wanted was small, they could have used QNX (if they want to pay the exhorbent license fee.) It fits into like 512k of ROM. I think they just want a free OS, plain and simple. Linux doesn't have nearly as many advantages in the embeeded market as people like to believe, other than the fact than its free.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Damnit. People really shouldn't use JavaScript on crappy-looking sites. I had to open up Opera to look at the page. New people. If your going to design a site that doesn't look very nice, please don't use cool technology that limits your audience.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
>...emacs...
Since you only have the OS, a web browser, TCP/IP software suite, NFS, web server, C compiler, vi, emacs, and Scheme interpreter, why not throw in a Napster client and perhaps a SETI@home screen saver with what's left of the 1 MB?!
Emacs on my Slackware 7.1 box by itself takes up about 2.7 MB!!!! Maybe you confused "emacs" with the venerable "ed", which is only about 67K. :-)
Umm, a DragonBall runs closer to 20MHz than 100. What I really want to see is somebody reserect the Z380. At 66MHz, you could make a damn nice TI-83 compatible machine! Think about it, znibbles at 66MHz!
(On a related note, I think the KDE and X programmers should be forced to spend time coding for these calculators. Fast, tight, optimized code. That's how REAL men program. Some guy wrote Mechwarrior for the Ti86, which has around 32k of RAM and a 6MHz processor!)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Grammar is just bizarre enough to get lots of "WTF ARE YOU SAYING????" comments, plus you attack the OSS movement. A good attempt on all fronts.
+++ATH0
like I said, it being free was a small portion of the deal... They wanted an open-sourced, free, small OS. It already has a lot of tools for porting applications, and many have been extremely successful at bringing over basic apps to the handheld market (ala Mutt, etc).
Or maybe Be, Inc. should start allocating some of their ever so scarce devteam and implement a friggin' JVM. Or better yet, you could always write one yourself.
Karma: Dyn-o-mite!(mostly affected by Jimmy Walker reading your comments)
That's weird. Monitors emit in the AM range.
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Desperation is a stinky cologne
Hmm.
Well, looking at the page a bit, I like the fact that they used Linux. With the wireless networking stuff in there, this would be a neat thing just to use around the house. I could run vi or emacs to type stuff out on it anywhere, send it to my main computer and compile it or print it/whatever. Just using it as a wireless terminal would be damn cool.
Not that you couldn't do such things with other OS's but Linux is pretty well suited to the kind of things you would do with it. Hm, you could even use console software like micq and lynx for pretty good Internet connectivity.
Hi,
Wireless connectivity is great, however, 900MHz in Europe
won't work -- this frequecny is occupied by
the GSM mobile telephony network.
Plain old sigh.
This reminds me of the windup radio developed by Trevor Baylis for use in regions such as Africa where radio is the primary method of distributing important information but electric power and even batteries are difficult to get.
The windup radio was sold in the west for a pretty high price as a curiousity to subsidize the distribution of these radios in Africa.
The Pengachu has short-range IP wireless commuication. What about wide area communication in infrastructure-poor areas? The two options I can see:
1. Satellite communication - a VSAT terminal that is shared by multiple Pengachus using the short range wireless link.
2. Terrestrial radio. Yes, this is one-way, but it's a very cheap and effective way of distributing information, software upgrades, etc. You can piggyback the data onto existing transmitters (RDS for FM, phase modulation a-la AM stereo for AM)
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Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
1. The $50 price tag is OEM cost in bulk. Our goal for this project is to build these devices and give them away to people in the developing world as information access devices. We're therefore not including the 300-400% markup that a commercial product would experience. If you consider the bill of materials cost for a Handspring Visor you will find that something around $30-$40 OEM cost in volume translates to the $110-$120 retail price.
2. The LCD is the single most costly component of the device (about $10 of the $50 cost target). While it would be nice to have a bigger display, you pay dearly for it. So it makes more sense to figure out how to build a decent UI model for limited screen real estate than throw all your budget into the display, which will cost more, break more easily, and eat up more power. This is especially important if you charge your batteries from a solar or wind-up power source!
3. This made it to Slashdot before we finished a proper documentation set. We wish to acknowledge the uClinux/Lineo team and TomW (http://www.openhardware.net) for doing the groundwork that made it possible to build these devices. TomW's commitment to open source hardware is especially laudable. Our device is not based on their netlists or board layouts, but their work with other uClinux hardware made it much easier for us.
-- Matt Reynolds, matt@media.mit.edu (hardware engineer for Pengachu)
Why would you want to? This is a dedicated device - once it works don't mess with it. Upgrades can be easily downloaded. You could develop for it/tinker w/ the software if you want; but it's not a requirement. That's a good thing - this isn't a "geektoy", it's a consumer device with the potential to be a "geektoy". :>
ObTagLine: The more you run over the 'possum, the flatter it gets.
Palms are great - I really love them. But they're not perfect. I don't know a whole lot about them, but do they have a TCP/IP stack? I don't think so, but I could be wrong
Yes...they do.
By the time this thing is out, m100plus will be something like 59.99. And Tiger Electronic will be selling purple Barbie Palm.
Vtech had a PDA for the kid/young teen market called Phusion for around $100. It had a built in digital camera and could sync up with a PC. The product page for it at VTech seems to have been dropped into the bit bucket, so it may have been discontinued.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I myself share in your amazement. I don't mind getting compliments, but this kind takes the joy out of getting modded up. Watch them mod it right back down now, and my Karma will drop because I'm at the cap. An interesting place, this /.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
I've played around Linux + DragonBall + 4~8MB Flash + LCD Panel + Wireless design for 3 years. With 2 designs onhand, 1 aborted prototype, 2 boss(es) and at least 6 OEM vendor meetings I can tell YOU BIG BOY OF AMERICAN cannot easily find this product off the shelf:
#1 : Buyer from American
#2 : Buyer from !(US || EU)
#3 : OEM factory
#4 : You geek
You can't expect much people work on OSS project other than Eng-German-Japanese speaking guys
As I know quite many OSS based consumer devices are killed in design/prototype stage for some or all of this reasons. That's why you need to pay that much to buy a car Mp3 player or TiVo. To sell it you need to put many STAE-OF-THE-ART technology inside - from custom ASIC to special LCD panel to hard-to-license-band - no matter the consumer need it or not.
That's what I think: If this project is REALLY for 3rd countries with not-for-profit fund support, that's GOOD. If you want to make it a commercial product, think twice.
In 1987-1994 Russian market was flooded with hobbyist designs of ZX Spectrum and ZX 128 clones. I was in the university back then.
That cheap, small Z80-based thing had HUGE impact on my generation. The parts cost (including blank PCB and keyboard) was about 20USD. Almost every student in every technical school built one of these and played games nights away. Many learned to program using these. Many went to sell them on the black market and earned seed capital for their later, more interesting ventures. This was truly a quiet revolution. Russia owes large part of its technical and enterpreneural talent to ZX Spectrum.
The moral is : a good affordable computer design CAN make a differnce in 3rd world countries.
guess you did not actually check out the homepage (http://rehmi.www.media.mit.edu/~rehmi/pengachu/fr ame.htm)
...
/snip
snip
Software Footprint:
Processor core containing Motorola Dragonball, 8MB flash, 8MB DRAM, running Linux
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You probably have the cover on, though, providing EM/RF shielding :P
My friend runs his box coverless. It runs at a 100MHz FSB. He can't get any radio stations in the 100MHz range.
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
errmm...
damn HTML! it should have read:
Software Footprint: less than 1MB...
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This from http://rehmi.www.media.mit.edu/~rehmi/pengachu.htm l which appears to be where any serious info is.
Please explain to me why something apparently Linux-friendly would bar lynx or all things.
Looking at the page source, it seems very ridden with MS crap.
Not a very good impression, sorry.
128x64 pixel onboard LCD, possibly VGA or NTSC output in next version
I don't think so... Maybe the next version will appeal to those used to dedicated monitors, but they probably won't cost $50!
If you're running your computer coverless, yep.
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
Do you really want to use vi/emacs with slow handwriting recognition? Or a command line at all? /. about this a few months back...general consensus is that you'd use the OS kernel and build a new GUI on top of that, instead of using commandline, as that paradigm Just Doesn't Work(tm) for handhelds.
There was an article on
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
The project's goal is to be able to make many for a low per-unit price so their sponsors (or the foundation funded by those sponsors) will be able to buy many for distribution in the countries where they are needed. How much sense would it make to try to bootstrap an informed user community in these desperate lands if only a few could be distributed because of high cost?!
One of the things to remember is that Spread Spectrum data communications is illegal in many countries. This is because those governments don't have the ability to listen in when they want to. In the US, Spread Spectrum is restricted in the use of its spreading (scrambling) codes, and the section of the transceiver where to code is located has to be made tamper-proof.
It may be better to simply use G3RUH amateur radio
type 9600 bps packet radio, and possibly PSK31 for greater distances (using NVIS propagation) over HF.
My reservations about this project are dealing with Motorola. It's a really evil company. And doesn't the dragonball lack an MMU? I'd rather use
a little bit better processor such as the strongARM. They use a bit more power than the dragonball but you get a lot more out of it. But hey, don't mean to be so critical....Pengachu looks like a great project! Its along the lines of stuff I've had in mind for a while. sinister.com/radio and other stuff
In the endgame we want to develop our own ASIC that will integrate many of the peripheral functions on to the same die as the processor.
-- Matt Reynolds (Pengachu hardware engineer)
That 900 MHz is for the radio band, not the processor speed. This is still cool, but I'm not drooling quite so much any more.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
Pokemon Pengachu vs. Pokemon Itsy!
Just fifty bucks for a computer? Hell, I'd buy that even if it didn't work. :-)
50 bucks IS dirt cheap compared to any other PDA out there including the the palms and visors, and don't even get me started on the ipak! sounds awsome.. wheer do i sign i want one!
Istigkeit -"is-ness" being and becoming & i'dfiying it with the mathematical abstraction of the idea
humor for the clinically insane
great comedy company.
You know, Palm already can sell the m100 at 100 and still make a profit. They simply don't have any competition at the low end market.
By the time this thing is out, m100plus will be something like 59.99. And Tiger Electronic will be selling purple Barbie Palm.
More low-end keyring PDA to keep Palm honest, yes. A better OS than PalmOS, I don't think so.
CY
Assuming that it has adequate performance regardless of processor speed, at just $50 they could very well saturate the market place. At least that many more people will be learning Linux. Can anyone say the youth market - ages 8 -18? $50 computer would make great stocking stuffers.
www.enthea.org
The system sounds like it would be a huge hit, but I really have to wonder if it could actually be sold at $50. That is a prety low price. Cell phones cost more and the companies mass produce them and make the money on contracts. Still, for $50, this could put linux in a lot of peoples hands.
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?"
it has a 100 kb/sec 900 Mhz radio .
as in 900 MHz cordless phone - not processor.
The specs for Pengachu are here
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WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
I love replying to replies...
To answer the overcoming palm section, read the post from Matt Reynolds, the MIT dude. They won't SELL it for $50. It's $50 in hardware costs for the OEMs. I doubt this includes labor. And of course, you've got to make a profit - in this case a large one. Hence the markup percentage noted by Matt.
Next: You're rewriting the code for a system with a totally unsupported file system. Gotta write that in. Then you've got to make it talk to the processor. Only 2 key points, but major ones.
The payment thingy...look 2 paragraphs up. Hardware is already seen as low-cost, but remember that you need LABOR...
Recompiling the kernel: sure it's dedicated, but I suspect modularity will be a key point. As new toys are added, they are mearly added in.
Geek factor: First the geek factor, then the usefulness. It happened to Palm, it will happen here. First will come the CEOs and the hackers (and boy will they come - you can tweak this one!), then will come the public once they see it in the hands of the others.
SIG: HUP
Damn you.
Wasn't that the level select code for Sonic 3? :P
Yeah, I played waay too much sega.
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
Are you serious? MW for the 86? :P
Gimme a link, I -have- to see this.
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
The lack of a console is one of the worst part of a PDA. I am a command line fanatic, and I cant stand using an OS without a built in console. I wanted to get an old Hewlet Pakard Dos based palmtop because of this. BTW: Are there any shareware console interfaces available for Win CE (if anyone is still writing for it), Palm (doubtful), or even, say, some of the Nokia phones?
[
For what it's worth, the MechWarriorCheck out some of the ASM programs for the various calculators. There are several impressive ones on the top downloads list, but there are also some less popular gems buried in the archives that never got as much exposure.
Enjoy!
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
gesundheit...oh, wait, i'll have to sue you...
See ticalc.org to satisfy your curiosity.
For what it's worth, the MechWarrior
game for the '86 isn't as impressive as it sounds - yer standard TI-BASIC fare.
Check out some of the ASM programs for the various calculators. There are several impressive ones on the top downloads list, but there are also some less popular gems buried in the archives that never got as much exposure.
Enjoy!
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Vertical Refresh: 35-150 HZ
Horizontal Refresh: 35-90+ KHZ
Dot Clock: 20-200 MHZ.
So while your heavally shielded monitor is blocking the 35 hz to 90 KHZ emissions, that crappy HD15 connector is happily broadcasting over top of your favorite radio stations.
--Dan
that dosn't explain it. TV for example, broadcasts AM and FM at the same time on the same freq. for each channel - AM for video, FM for audio. Monitors should be leaking AM in those ranges you mentioned, not FM. The frequency range does not specify am/fm.
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Desperation is a stinky cologne
kinda reminds me a little too much of a gameboy crossed with etch-a-sketch.
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Society has traditionally always tried to find scapegoats for its problems. Well, here I am.
from Pengachu PDA block diagram found at http://rehmi.www. med ia.mit.edu/~rehmi/pengachu/v3_document.htm
it uses a Dragonball CPU, the same used in the Palm handhelds. much less then 900mhz, probablly more like 100 or so.
it also has a 128x64 LXD screen. not to usefull by it self, but does provide moniter hookups
it has 8M Flash RAM, pretty cool. Linux is going to eat up about 1M of that.
The neatest thing is that it can use "winup" power.. I can't imagine running a stable web server off winup power, but if you just lugging it somewhere and want to read your mail, what could be better?
-Jon
this is my sig.
Well, Mobile Linux will only be useful if it is done right... so that it is actually stable, usable, and as "idiot-proof"/easy to use as WinCE and PalmOS... Palmtops are a user-driven market, and most of the users are not engineers... While Linux gives access to cheaper, more familiar development environments (Gnu compilers, etc.) for OpenSource engineers, there needs to be more than just that...
Some more Linux Handheld links, including the actual specs of Pengachu, which reveal that 900mhz is the RF band (in case you thought it was the clockspeed), etc...
The Project Pengachu home page (specs, etc.)
MobiliX has various Mobile linux links / resources.
Gmate, the Korean company producing a (somewhat expensive) Linux PDA that looks rather a lot like the one from Samsung
Compaq Itsy
o/~ we are pissed, we are pissed, we have to resist... o/~ - ec8or
I got a 1280x1024 monitor to emit about 107.1 MHz by tweaking XF86Config and it definitely crashes a nearby FM radio.
haha, ya. bigfreakinserver is a dual proc celly. it's not a monster machine. it was a place where I would run as many servers and junk as I could. kind of a testbed for tech. Right now it's down as I have moved to Austin and haven't got the DSL hookup yet.
anyway, it's a joke name. laugh.
-Jon
this is my sig.
..whats okay until you remember you need to lug around that 1000 page manual 'cause you haven't quite got the hang of all the commands yet. :-)
Not necessarily this particular item, but cheap machines in general. For example, this whole election fiasco in America could have been resolved if simple voting software could be installed on units that were $50 apiece. No "it's too expensive to deploy" excuses, the entire nation could be outfitted with these machines for less than the price of George Bush's campaign.
Heck, there are probably millions of old machines sitting idle that could do this kind of job. If recreating new low-cost machines is a money losing proposition, how about tax incentives or such to create a nationwide repository of old machines that still have some use to them? Not every application needs a 1Ghz trillion color 512MB RAM Beowulf cluster. Send all the VIC-20's to Palm Beach County! (Big characters that senior citizens can read!)
I can just see it now; people complain about comand intuitiveness now, what's it gonna be like with a device like this? Can you get a console on it? tilt left,left,right,up,up,down,left for directory listing. tilt right,down,up,right,left,followed by a shake,left,up,more shaking, right, and up once more to change dirs. throw it in the clothes dryer to randomly recompile the kernel. God forbid you drop the thing down some stairs and accidentally issue "nohup rm -rf /&"
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Society has traditionally always tried to find scapegoats for its problems. Well, here I am.
Sounds great, but it hasn't got that much in it from what I can tell (based on current specs). The fact that it's using Linux will actually make a difference - not only for the geek factor, but because it's less costly. While some major work will obviously have to be done (I don't think the current kernel supports the stuff in these kinds of systems), it will likely pay off.
Summary:
Pluses: -Uses Linux, this means less cost and a
major "geek" factor.
-Has modularity extreme, strong point of
the kernel.
Minuses: -Has to compete with Palm...This may be
overcame, but it will be hard.
-Major mods needed; the Linux kernel
just isn't meant for these
kinds of systems.
-You've gotta pay for all this. Even if
major effort comes free, it will still cost a whole lot. You've got to not
only equal the competition, but surpass
it enough to stand out.
-Can you imagine recompiling the kernel
for you palmtop?
In conclusion: It's got good potential, as long as the obstacles are overcome - but they sure are some pretty huge obstacles.
SIG: HUP