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Playstation 2 Innards, Annotated
Kenneth writes: "Firingsquad.com just released a really hefty technical article explaining exactly how the PS2 works. It goes into detail about the number of FMAC/FDIV units each PS2 processor contains vs. other computing platforms, and actually delves into more than just the graphics capabilities of the machine." The article also addresses some of the corporate / technological history of how that cute blue box came to be cooler than hula-hoops.
The Dreamcast runs on Windows CE. Where have you been?!
http://www.iongames.org/glossary/terms.html
At least this glossary says the Expansion pack has it, and the system itself has 4mb of RDRAM...
http://www.pcquest.com/nov98/speed.asp
This site mentions the usage of RDRAM in a variety of devices, including the N64
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
Dammit, it's only been up a few minutes
What am I supposed to do at 3am, wired on Red Bull if I can't read the techy stats for the PS2?
Don't taunt me, Taco
Ben^3 (4 cans down, 3 to go)The Slashdot Paradox: "100% Overrated"
Then there is the issue that N64 and PS2 both use Rambus; why, oh why
It's simple. With RAMBUS they get high bandwidth from very few chips and a very low pin count. Playstation 2 has only two RDRAM ICs. Have a look at a 32MB GeForce DDR and tell me how many RAM chips there are on it... In a guaranteed high volume product with a relatively long life expectancy it makes sense to go for fewer components and fewer tracks for a simpler PCB and simpler manufacturing.
Paul.
How right you sound!
I'm wondering, then, if these two deals alone made the Rambus fortune?
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
'Standard OpenGL/D3D blend modes' my arse. It doesn't do SRC*DEST, pretty much the most standard blendfunc there is, and vital for lightmapping.
I understand Unreal Tournament has to use a workaround that requires 4(!) passes over the geometry.
Right here
t /
m mi ng/Technical/
http://mc.pp.se/dc/
http://members.tripod.co.uk/tom_waters/dreamcas
http://www.dcdev.f2s.com/links/Dreamcast/Progra
http://www.diedrichs.org/dreamcast/
And since the Dreamcast is powered by a Hitachi SH4, you can get detailed, comprehensive documents for that from http://www.hitachi.com
FMAC does not stand for Floating-Point Multiply-Adder Calculator. FMAC is short for floating-point multiply-accumulator. A MAC operation is a multiply followed by an accumulation. It is used to add the product of two factors to an existing sum, such as when computing the dot product of two vectors. MAC instructions are pretty common on DSPs where they are used in various signal processing applications.
Yesterday it worked; today it is not working; Windows is like that...
Where's the article on the innards of the Dreamcast?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Sony over here still seem to think the 128Meg stick is still in development (well at least thats what they keep telling me.
Does anyone know if there is any "Regionalisation" on Memory-Sticks, and if not, how much is a 256Meg Magic-Gate stick? cos I just have to get some nice chunky ones for my MS Walkman and my C1VE Crusoe VAIO
Nite
Stop telling bullshit..
Dreamcast does not run Linux. Dreamcast can run two os which are on your game disc, depending on developper's choice. They are Shinobi (sega's light and powerful os, used by 99% of games) or the crappy and discontinued WindowsCE (used by 1% of games). The CE thing is just marketing hype. If you look at first generation japanese dreamcast they had "Designed for Windows CE" on front, newer ones have "Compatible with Windows CE"...
Despite popular rumor, PS2 doesn't run linux either. Devkits consist of two boards, one "real" PS2 hardware, and a pentium class board which is the controller of the development system. This board, which is the one hooked on the network is the ones that runs Red Hat. But in no way does your average PS2 run any Linux.
well in a news story on television (tv one news in New Zealand) it had a quote from sony that the target market is 18 to 30 year old males.
/.'s market too?
:)
isn't that a large chunk of
how long before we see ps2 banner adds on slashdot
bats = bugs
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Drink Coffee - Do Stupid Things Faster And With More Energy!
Probally for the same reason shops opened for the tiberian sun game and ms windows 98 at midnight, it all is a marketing hype.....If anything else, i'm completely clueless.
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
PowerSaw 2?? Yeah, heaps more powerful than the first one... Cuts through about 20 inches/sec. Still, most of the blades at release suck, but they have some awesome looking ones coming... Still for now I think I'll stick with my DreamCutter.
1: If the 64MB is more reliable and has a longer life, then sony is hosing up the other (arguably more important) products. 2: Sure, it's cheaper, but if they're using a standard interface like they should be (Standard to them, anyway) then it shouldn't be an issue and people who want to spend more money can. 3: Ostensibly you will be able to download MP3s via your PS2 and put them on memory stick to be played on your Sony portable mp3 player which uses memory sticks.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Console games are often more polished and the "gaming in the sofa" experience is a whole lot better than with a PC. Just for kids? That's just such a 10 years ago attitude =-)
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Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Yeah, well GeForce and Athlon 600 are pretty common nowdays. The problem is that PC games must sell to many people.. which means forget geforce and aim low.. aim to voodoo3 with p3 500. Also because of different hw, pc end up crippled by sad drivers and sad api (d3d). It will always be the same thing: PC HW is too diverse. Publishers want to sell many copies, developers must accept that but they don't really care/have time to optimize the code for every platform (PC = many platforms). Result: you need 2 times the recomended CPU speed, memory and fillrate because the code isn't optimized.
You may say that games have different level of details, but toggling on the sky texture isn't really a feature..
The sad truth is that PC HW is just too complex. It's a compatibility nightmare and nobody wants to truly use the current HW at its real capabilites because it would require why too much custom code. PC raw power superiority is wasted in all the sublayers needed to keep some decent compatibility together.
PC game programming is a lot more like application programming.. HW performance doesn't really matter cause "the users will upgrade". PS2 will get eventually behind PC HW (2GHz CPU + NV40) and then consoles will catch up again. The bottom line is: with consoles you can use HW at its fullest.
bau
The EE runs the main you compile for the EE. You have to upload libraries to the IOP. The IOP looks like it bootstraps the EE, which then reloads the IOP with the version of the libraries the EE code was compiled to. Difficult to say though, the IOP and its kernel are remarkably under-documented.
About a minute ago their site froze solid. Time to upgrade the servers.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
The guy said Red Hat. I just replied the Red Hat thing.
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Read this. Thank you.
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And if your really bored you can try to modify this total proprietary console. MMMM changing power inputs and outputs.
Eh.. bleem's website also says that bleemcast (playstation emulation for dreamcast) will be released in summer of 2000.... wait, that was 4 months ago and it still isn't out. not too reliable.
-gerbik
The Dreamcast does not run Red Hat Linux, it does not run Windows CE. It does not contain its own operating system. Each game disc can be built for WinCE or Linux because these are the OS's to which the Dreamcast SDK has been ported. Whatever disc is in the machine when it is powered on determines what OS will run.
Fwiw, SGI uses Rambus memory in their IMPACT graphics systems (IMPACT for the Indigo2 came out in 1995).
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--It's Pimptastic!--
And I really like 1600x at 100 fps :D
This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
Actually, the Sega Saturn used Hitachi cpus (two of them, part of why programmers disliked it so). Also, to my understanding, the MIPS cpu in the PS2 is mainly there for playing PS1 games, and maybe for offloading slower processing tasks to (like sound). I've never heard of an r3k chip at faster than 75mhz, yet the rest of the PS2 runs at 300mhz, so the r3k can't be doing much. While hybrid games is a cool idea, I don't think that it is possible. The regular PSX can only use CDs, while the PS2 probably requires that it's games only come on DVDs (to prevent piracy). Besides, and supplemental materials packed onto a single CD aren't going to be that great. Better to just make two versions of the same game. As to the PSX++ development system, I think the PSX and PS2 are too different for anything more than superficial similarities in the libraries, but I'm not a PS2 developer, so I couldn't comment.
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
From over at the Gaming-Age forums:
Somewhat decently informed article but flawed on plenty of points nonetheless. I don't feel like going into details about that though, just to point a few that stand out.
"GS is texel bandwith limited"
- GS is most certainly not texture bandwith limited, quite the opposite, there is headroom left even with all 32bit texel access. (and you can figure in color lookup on GS just as well reducing texel lookup bandwith requirement further if it was really needed).
"GS is underpowered in fillrate vs XBox"
- XBox has only twice the texel rate of PS2. With 1.5 year time gap that hardly makes the latter underpowered. But I guess Tresh likes to forget fillrate jumped up roughly 10times in last 1.5 years on PC market.
"PS1 compatibility is a hardware design"
PS1 compatibility is Not a hardware design, it's software emulated. The only part of PS1 hardware in there is the main cpu that also functions as an I/O unit. The entire 3d pipeline is emulated through EE and GS.
More could be said but I'm kinda tired myself today...
Peace
Dreamcast does not run Linux. Dreamcast can run two os which are on your game disc...
;-)
Although it doesn't run RedHat Linux, there is a port of BSD to the Dreamcast: (previous slashdot article)
It's not Linux, but I'm sure that someone will have a GNU/Linux distro on a CD or GD for the DC soon enough
:wq
Had Sony bothered to write a set of high-level libraries, an emu might have been able to intercept calls to it and translate them a port of Sony's library.
You could probably shift the bulk of such a library's work onto the NV20's T&L processor, leaving the x86 to deal with the application's physics code and the like. Of course, Sony hasn't yet released such a library so this is pure speculation.
I was not aware that I could purchase the playstation 2 for the same $149 USD that I paid for my Hercules Prophet 2 GTS 2 32meg.
This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
Given all the hardware coverage, how soon before we see an emulator for the PS2?
With the scarcity of the unit, I could just imagine desparate parents downloading the program just in time for the holidays...
As I understand it, the max theoretical limit for the Playstation 2 is around 75 million polygons per second. However, this would be without any texturing, shading, or other necessary things like AI or physics modeling. The realistic maximum limit for the PS2 during gameplay is said to be 20 million polygons per second.
So, at what time will PC technology surpass the Sony box? Considering the imminent arrival of 1 GHz Athlons, plus the hardware T & L of video cards like the GeForce, will a PC system be able to match the PS2? Or will the I/O limitations of the PC cripple it in comparison to the PS2?
On October 26, Sony launched the PlayStation 2 Computer Entertainment System. With a huge demand stemming from the success of the original PlayStation, thousands of gamers and dedicated parents all across America camped outside stores and braved frigid temperatures just for the chance to buy the system at midnight.
Isn't that just crazy? I mean, this is probably totally off-topic, as I am not trying to karma whore here with some freaking technical explanation about something I don't understand anything about, but how come people spend their whole nights out in the cold just that they can buy theirselves a new video game? I mean, think about it, in 10 years you'll feel like those who waited hours to get their ATARI 2600's (no offense, classic gamers, I like it too).
I would also like to say that I think PSX2 is probably cooler than most of the videogames available right now, it's just too bad that it's not being sold in Brazil yet (and won't be for sometime, I guess), and despite the fact that I love the PSX1, they gotta put this thing out in a organized and affordable way before they achieve a huge failure in selling it out (which I think they won't, people will spend their hard-won money on anything).
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from the people who sponsered the hack a furby contests comes... the hack a ps2 contest!
Runnin' On Empty
I don't see why everybody is so excited about the hardware of all these next generation video game consoles. It really seems like the software is the most important thing. Games that were released with the PS1 are nothing compared to Gran Turismo 2 or the new Tony Hawk. Remember these games are running on 5 or 6 year old technology, and the graphics are not too shabby. Why don't we focus on developing software for these consoles rather than arguing about polygons per second capabilities.
Anyway, its just a rumour for now, what ya think could a useable PS2 emulator be developed for an xbox spec machine ?
Two words: Hell, no.
Just trying to emulate VU0 & VU1 on the PS2 would be far more than an x86 chip could handle. If you've read the article, you'll remember that that's up to 10 simultaneous floating point calculations that the Emotion Engine platform can chew on at once (1 for the main FPU, 4 for VU0, and 5 for VU1). Intel's SSE can barely choke on 4 at a time, if I recall correctly, coupled with -- maybe -- up to two simultaneously issued instructions to the FPUs on a Celeron. I'll almost guarantee that it gets better FPU performance too. FP and SIMD have not been x86 strong-points compared to other architectures.
Then you've got to consider emulating the interaction between various components of the system, such as how VU0 & VU1 may do math in serial or in parallel to render a scene. Then there's the insane bandwidth between the system and the Graphics Synthesizer -- 2560 bits at 150 MHz. The PS2 is meant to be constantly transferring data over its busses and to make relatively little use of cache. Oh, and then there's the little inconsequential IO processor that's basically a PSX on a chip.
Time will tell whether the X-box will be a better gaming platform or not. However, I don't care how good it is, you won't see something capable of emulating a PS2 for years, unless someone else takes the radical architectural approaches that they did. It's just too different from a regular PC-like architecture, and let's face it -- that's all the X-box is is a suped-up PC in a console box.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
True, but they don't represent the average consumer of the PS/2 (at least not this Christmas). Those who can afford the console, will most likely also be able to afford at least a cheap PC. And I contend that for many, that's a better choice (ie. if they don't already have a PC, and their kids have any affinity for learning about technology, spend the extra bucks :-)
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
You're right about the Saturn, however...
There's two MIPS cores in the PS2. One in the IOP (the PS1 on a chip), and one in the EE.
Sound is handled seperately by the SPU2, which is two SPUs chained together (SPU being the original PS1 Sound Processing Unit).
The IOP book-keeps the SPU2, reads the controllers, and a few other things (all the external I/O basically). It's actually slightly faster than the original PS1, and has to be slowed down to emulate the PS1. Some people are running their game logic on it, leaving the EE to handle the graphics.
PS2 games can ship on either CD or DVD, it's up to the developer. The copy protection is pretty thorough on both, although the first hack chips have already been announced.
I am a PS2 developer, which probably means I shouldn't comment.
The regular PSX can only use CDs, while the PS2 probably requires that it's games only come on DVDs (to prevent piracy).
This is incorrect. The PS2 has two disc formats that are used.
1) DVD: these have a silver color on the bottom.
2) CDROM: these are blue on the bottom.
Examples: Evergrace and Kessen were two of the launch titles I purchased on DVD. Moto GP, Tekken, and SSX are CDROM based.
Why the heck is MIPs so popular?
:)
The correct name is MIPS. It isn't a plural
MIPS processors are popular because they give a very good balance between price, performance, and power consumption. Compared to x86 processors, MIPS chips are much cheaper, use much less power, and give better performance at the same clock rate.
Additionally, the MIPS core is smaller than that of equivalent speed Pentiums and Athlons. This makes it easier to customize the processor and to put it on a chip with other parts. Sony has done both of these.
The icon for the "Games" topic in Slashdot is a picture of the N64 controller. However, it is widely known that most Slashdotters are biased towards the PlayStation and the PS2. Why haven't I heard other people complain about this? (No, apathy is not a legitimate reason.)
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
my question would be "why x86?" it sickens me to see people praising the x86 architecture (Crusoe included) in embedded devices. why are we still hanging onto this dated instruction set? we don't need to support this antiquated technology in new embedded devices.
as someone involved in the embedded market, i'm really annoyed by ill-informed comments like this. there are people at my company actively working on keeping MIPS ports of Linux software up-to-date so our customers can use a decent architecture in their embedded devices (ie. "internet appliances") instead of supporting x86 cruft.
but to answer your question, the MIPS core is so popular because it's an excellent architecture (as noted by others) but also because the core can be licensed and included in custom ASICs. you'll notice that the Sony PS2 CPU is a custom Sony chip with various other blocks on it, but that the MIPS core is also included in that. you can't buy a Pentium core.
- j
I'd like to hear more about the PSX2 development environment if anyone would care to elaborate.
Actually, the DC will run whatever is put onto the CD - it doesn't actually boot an OS from ROM - it happens that the system itself *CAN* run CE (hence the logo on the box, and on some games), but many game manufacturers are choosing to run their own stuff, rather than CE.
No. That's not true. At Linux-Kongress in Erlangen, Germany, I saw a presentation of Linux on the SuperH-Processor whitch is used by the Dreamcast (http://www.linux-kongress.de/2000/abstracts.html# niibe). I saw it booting on Dreamcast. Since Emacs wasn't installed, the developper started Vi, and the audience applauded. Wow. That was real Linux-feeling. I talked to the Developper (his name was Yutaka Niibe, I think...) and he said that maybe Debian will bring out a distribution for the SH-3/4. Redhat will not, probably, cause there is no money to earn for them.
What do you do when you see an endangered animal eating an endangered plant?
So, if you use the C libraries, which chip runs int main(){;}? Also, is the IOP the chip that boots the system?
Or can't you comment on that.
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
I like that sort of data better than "which game runs faster, loko better". It actually showed solid proof that previously released hardware is just as good (if not better) than new stuff (DC vs PS2).
:)
If this was a product released by any other company (say Sega), would it have had the appeal that it does? The dreamcast never seemed to get really big. I always stuck to PS1 games..
A superior machine w/less appeal b/c of a name.. just a thought (and no, PPC does not fit into this category
ArsTechnica has had a great discussion of the PS2 innards for some time now. The Firingsquad stuff was neat, but I still think the article by John Stokes outweighs it.
It is easy to control all that you see,
Check this out, its NetBSD's Dreamcast port. "Of course it runs NetBSD".
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Okay, honestly I haven't made it all the way through the article, but it seems like a watered down version of two previous Ars Technica articles (they used the same source, so its not surprising.
emotion engine overview
ps2 vs pc
-brian
Well, I'd gladly pay for a computer over a console, with the hope that the kid may actually LEARN something if they take an interest in computers, computing, networking, etc.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
Why the heck is MIPs so popular?
This is a hypothetical, but if I recall correctly, Sega Saturn, N64, PSX, PS2, all use MIPs. Maybe other platforms too... but that boils down to the fact that, combined, there are many more MIPs machines out there than there are x86 machines (at least until recently, when PCs started to drop below 1k)
Then there is the issue that N64 and PS2 both use Rambus; why, oh why, would they be hurting for money? Did they happen to make a really stupid license deal, and not realize just how big Nintendo and Sony are, as regards sales of systems? Or is it, because the devices are sold at a loss, that Rambus can't actually make any money? I would have though Sony or Nintendo would suck up the difference?
I'm also wondering if there can be hybrid PS games? Games that play under PSX, but when popped into the PS2, new, additional features and options become available?
Or, as an alternative, could one use a PSX++ development system? Develop using mostly PSX libraries, and use useful supplementary PS2 technologies as needed?
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GPL Deconstructed
It's because you can license the MIPS core for a good price, and it's a very nice RISC architecture, and probably pretty cheap to fab.
Then again... I don't think that the N64 uses RAMBUS, where are you getting this info? Because the N64 came out in 1997, and I'm not quite sure that RDRAM was ready back then....
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Yeah. Only a dominant player in the market could force an architecture like that on developers. You can't port much to those vector units; you have to redesign for the platform.
The X-box, on the other hand, is very vanilla. It's an x86 PC with an nVidia graphics controller. Of course, the big problem with the X-box will be manufacturing them cheaply enough.
As far as the PS2 goes, its design almost requires high clock ram since its pitiful amount of vram necessitates swapping textures MANY times per frame.
Just take my word that I'm funny
Okay, I haven't seen any other post ask this question yet, but since this ::IS:: SlashDot, I figure someone has to sooner or later:
What are the chances of linux being ported to the PS2?
I mean, granted, I know nothing about the nitty-gritty details of the hardware, etc., but from what I've read and understood, linux running on one of these things would kick some serious ass. USB, Firewire, and an upcoming ethernet card and harddrive, what else could you ask for? I'd like to be able to ssh into my PS2 from work, personally =)
Just a thought...
--
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http://www.amorphous.org
very poor spelling. it's "grammar."
You always have to have the word "4n" before words starting with a vowell. "4" is used by itself only before constinents.
what the hell is a "constinent?" i think you meant "consonant." and "133t" doesn't begin with a "vowell", fuckwit.
The trolling will continue until the moderation system is fixed
ooh... another moderation revolutionary. how original.
There could be a couple of issues here: 1: The 64 meg is more reliable, and has a longer life. 2: Its Cheaper. 3: will you need more them this? How much storage do you need for a saved game?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is interesting because in Japan, there are 256MB memory sticks, and there's 128MB sticks here. So is the author of this article privy to some information we don't have about the limitations of the PS2, or are they just ignorant?
I was going to say some other things here, but the site seems to be slashdotted now. This is particularly sad, because I just KNOW there's going to be things in their conclusions that I'd be able to poke full of holes.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"