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GNOME 1.4 Beta 1 Is Out
The folks at GNOME have released GNOME 1.4 beta 1, code name "oops, we did it again". You can find the packages at your favorite mirror. If you're testing, then please fill the bug reports in the "right place" (either Eazel's bugzilla or Ximian Bugzilla). Good work, guys.
You are my new favorite troll.
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
BeOS comes with Anti-Aliased Fonts and they cannot be disabled. This is fine with me. Unless you are working with extremely small font sizes, AA is a lot easier for me read. At extremely small font sizes on non-AA displayes, you just hurt your eyes instead of trying to decipher grey blobs.
Thank you for the package list - Gnome 1.4 looks very exciting, but I have one small question: What exactly is the purpose for Medusa? What makes it superior to the (already existing on 99.99% of all systems) slocate database? Please realize that this is not intended as a troll or a criticism, but simply a question.
/var until there was absolutely no space left. I accept that this is a prerelease, and it isn't intended to be perfect, but it appears from my perspective that Medusa is the new Linux equivalent of the old Microsoft "Find Fast" daemon that used to suck up CPU time and grind the drive all the time on the Windows front. If someone could tell me that this is not the normal behaviour of Medusa, I'll be very relieved.
My only experience with Medusa has been through Nautilus preview releases, where I have seen medusa-indexd run at all sorts of strange times, and I also witnessed medusa cause my system (indirectly, admittedly) to crash by filling up
Once again, I'm not trolling, and I'm not trying to bitch too much, I'm just wondering.
I switched to Gnome from XFce after a brief flirtation with KDE and even briefer with WindowMaker. I switched to Gnome about a year ago.
Gnome and XFce: I like the look and alterability a little better than XFce, but mostly I like the ease of working with it. Click and drool throughout. XFce is close to being as easy and seems to have made great strides since 3.3, but I haven't switched back back because I've gotten a comfy Gnome setup and don't feel like messing with it. XFce is vastly faster and more stable but takes a little more maintenance.
Gnome and KDE: KDE is excellent too, but I was turned off by the inflexibility of design decisions in the panel. Mainly I hate the taskbar and file manager. 2 is really nice looking, but the things that annoy me remain.
Gnome and WindowMaker: WM is nice looking, but the icons and menu-behavior annoy me. Blackbox is similar and better, but again Gnome hasn't given me a reason to switch.
"Nothing was broken, and it's been fixed." -- Jon Carroll
Nice one comming from a ignorent Little puke, Leaving Linux out of this game and just evaluate Unix type systems in general to a Microsoft(more like microcrap) system like Win2k how can you possible say that without knowing FACTS. Let me just point at all of win2k's positives before ripping it apart. It is a nice Op system for it applications and games because devolpers saw it as a consumer type of system 2000 is a supposed networked version for businesses and hosting small servers. Now to rip it apart, Unix based systems are way way more secure faster .. OOOOOOO AND WAY DOES Microsoft use a unix and not there own product because it SICKS!!! and can't handle the number of people like any Unix can .. i don't want to type more ... look at the reasearch it has be done already why pay if there is better FREE unix systems out there better then win2k. check out www.unix-vs-nt.org
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein
All your pre-installed user interface are belong to us!
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what you say!
All your source code, are belong to us? GPL?
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what you say!
All your <tt></tt> are belong to us!
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what you say!
And gtk+ before imlib?
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
I am currently working of a fork of GNOME that will give a nice, consistent, mac-like interface to all applications (which sometimes means re-writing people's applications, but the codes free for that, isn't it?). I decided long ago that I we can't rely on Miguel et. al to create well designed interfaces. They keep making the same GUI design mistakes that countless generations of windows programmers have made. I wish them the best, and they are vary talented programmers in a technical sense, but I know that left unchecked, GNOME (UI wise) will be nothing more than a windows clone. The UI of the future shouldn't repeat the mistakes of the past. I have the code. I can make something better. Behold, the power of open source!
And yes, there can be only one ;)
Long live Clarux the Penguincow!i believe its 1.2.9. for the raleigh gtk theme
which needed some patching to gtk to work,
because the latest official gtk release is 1.2.8
"I keep looking in the want-ads under 'revolutionary' but there don't seem to be any listings.. "
The HEAD branch of CVS is tagged KDE_2_1_RELEASE, and tarballs are released to the packagers.
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
All your irony are belong to us!
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what you say!
an ugly hack:
just delete all the icons when gmc starts and they won't reappear the next time around
"I keep looking in the want-ads under 'revolutionary' but there don't seem to be any listings.. "
All your polydactyl gnome feet are belong to us!
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what you say!
See details here. It kinda kills your theory.
That didn't work for me. After a quick FTP to spidermonkey.ximian.org, the directory is actually:
/ distributions/debian unstable main
/pub/ximian/1.4beta1/distributions/debian
(ximian was added)
thus, the actual line is:
deb ftp://spidermonkey.ximian.com/pub/ximian/1.4beta1
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Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
When will they release a new version of my favorite desktop manager, xterm?
Seems like the post was misconstrued and some may think I meant Gnome is trash or something which is not the case. As stated I just wanted to know what was the big deal about it, I have nothing against anything thats prepped for the Unixes, but I particularly found that when I used Gnome it brought the load on my machines high at the time, cause mem leaks, crashed. I haven't used it since and didn't judge. AGAIN...
ENGLISH, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BENEFITS OF USING IT. Why has someone:
1) Switched to it
2) Switched back to it
3) Is using it over other tools like QT
"When I was a Buddhist, it drove my parents and friends crazy, but when I am buddha, nobody is upset at all"
Why not FTP? When I clicked on the link, it gave me a dialog saying that the limit of FTP connections has been reached and listed the available mirrors. ;-)
I doubt, therefore I may be.
Nop. It's not related to anything. I just found out about GNOME 1.4 few hours ago and I posted it here on /.
As for KDE 2.1 - Tommorow it will be TAGGED KDE_2_1 final and will be send to packagers. The official launch of KDE 2.1 will be next monday. Mirrors will have the packages ready by then, as well as an easy gui installer (hopefully).
Hetz (Heunique)
the http directory is different from the ftp directory. It is reccomended I think that you use the http since the ftp will already be loaded from all the people downloading RPMs already.
_joshua_
what are the 'fifth toe packages' ?
What? Busy ~24h? You know, most Linux users won't download the sources or use GNOME beta. I'd agree with you if it was just a notice on a site.
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
or apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade from the net. and then
use the deb sources line that was posted earlier in this article and voila...
new gnome.
might only take an hour or so on a fast computer and connection.
"I keep looking in the want-ads under 'revolutionary' but there don't seem to be any listings.. "
Oh, sorry!
All your C are belong to us!
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what you say!
Problem solved :).
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Celebrate the finer things in life
All your phony anecdote are belong tous!
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what you say!
imlib should be compiled before gtk+, IIRC.
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Celebrate the finer things in life
No, you should install gtk+ to get gdk_imlib to build. Check http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/source/imlib/gdk_imlib/
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
Seriously, if you are an xterm junkie, give rxvt a shot. It has lots of cool features that xterm doesn't (transparency, a scroll bar that is usefull, etc.) and it suposedly has a smaller memory footprint than xterm.
My favorite settings for an rxvt?
rxvt -fg green -bg black -geometry 80x50 +sb
Want a secure remote shell?
rxvt -fg orange -bg black -geometry 80x50 +sb -e ssh -l [username] [remote.host.name]
I like to set these up as menu items in my windowmaker menus and assign a short cut: [windows][alt][t] for a new rxvt!
-Peter
. Penguins Surely Ca
This release includes Nautilus for a file manager. Let's hope they've worked on the stability since the last beta release. Will gnome 1.4 include text anti-aliasing and RGB decimation support?
At work we do all of our development on Solaris and since CDE sucks I tried to compile GNOME. It required too many different packages from all over the net and a good number of them wouldn't compile.
I then tried KDE, which only requires 4 files to get started, QT, Support, Libs, and Base. I have been compiling and running KDE on Solaris ever since. KDE 2.1 will be a nice upgrade, especially now that I have fixed the damned bug where konsole would crash periodically. I'm hoping my patch makes it into 2.1.
As for web browsers, the only reason I still run Netscape is because our corporate mail and calender are based on it and KDE mail doesn't support IMAP yet. Konqueror is an awesom browser, especially in 2.1 since it has most of the Netscape features I liked (like dragging URLs between windows).
I havn't tried Gnome for a while, but looking at the list of required libraries and whatnot it looks like the same mess it was before.
-Aaron
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
gpm... Check http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/source/imlib/configure.in
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
I already ugpraded using the ximian apt source! Just add this to your /etc/apt/sources.list: i ons/debian unstable main
deb http://spidermonkey.ximian.com/1.4beta1/distribut
then you just apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade and you let it do its thing... restart X and BAM!
_joshua_
Last time I tried Nautilus the spastic medusa file indexer thing keep sucking away all my cpu time. Kinda reminds me of that crazy fastfind.exe process in windows many years ago that did similar things.
Encapsulation is very good. However, even if something is encapsulated well, does not mean that you don't need to look under the hood. If a certain function is becoming a bottleneck, you need to be able to see what that function is doing, and how you can help it out. For example, you might thing that a sort() algorithm would be a fairly closed-box solution. However, some sorts perform dramatically better with differently-ordered sets. If you can tweak previous code to get it to a form that works better with that type of sort, then you have gained an advantage. Encapsulation helps the learning curve, but in order to masterfully use a tool, you also must know how it works underneath. Trust me, there is NO SUCH THING as a completely black box. The actual implementation always has an effect. A good encapsulation will make the interface easy to learn and predictable, but it is no substitue for masterful knowledge.
Engineering and the Ultimate
(From news.gnome.org)
For the convenience of those who find building from source too daunting, Ximian will soon be making binary packages available for a variaty of platforms.
If one doesn't have the technical experience to compile a beta, they probably shouldn't be using first-gen beta software.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
Unfortunately it is mozilla 0.7 that followes the Ximian-packages. That is not very good, since mozilla 0.8 is much more stable and robust.
First of all, using GNOME with Enlightenment, although at one time was a common practice, has showed to usually be a bad idea. Why? because of many duplicated features. Enlightenment is more than a Window Manager, and GNOME is more than a panel. I prefer using SawFish - it's pretty much _just_ a window manager. As for the rest of GNOME, it has most of the same benefits as KDE - consistency, common libraries, object embedding, etc. The panel is cool, too. I like GNOME over KDE for several reasons:
1) I like the look better
2) I think it is better thought-out
3) It seems to focus on solving technical issues irst, rather than just making it look pretty
4) I think using C has long-term technical advantages
5) I like coding for the API (haven't done that much of it, but what I have done was really fun)
If you like KDE better, more power to ya. However, GNOME _is_ bloated if used in combination with Enlightenment, because they duplicate each other's features. If you do use GNOME, grab Ximian GNOME, because its easy to update, and does a good job of it.
Engineering and the Ultimate
I mean, I could end up running Nautilus on my Athlon 700, but I doubt it would be usable on my Laptop Pentium 150.
And I'm afraid konqueror is going on the same route...
I looked around in freshmeat: there are many 'light graphical file managers', most of them based of GTK. Maybe two or more of them could coelesce, even include some GMC code, and produce a gnome-integrated file manager for not-so-powerful machines ?
Yes I know the mantra ... if you want it, do it yourself... or buy a better laptop .
Ciao
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FB
I run LinuxPPC as my primary desktop platform - have been for over a year. What exactly are you talking about?
Engineering and the Ultimate
For Great Justice!!!
I wasn't saying _anyone_ was breaking the spec. I'm just saying that Enlightenment is pretty-much a full-fledged desktop environment (like WindowMaker). Thus, if you have Enlightenment + GNOME, you have a lot of duplication of code which leads to slowness and memory hogging. I have nothing against Enlightenment, I just think if you use it with GNOME it takes more space and processing power than it needs to. Enlightenment by itself works great, as well as GNOME with SawFish or other lightweight WMs.
Engineering and the Ultimate
I wasn't saying that. I was just saying that it was a better choice. Engineering decisions aren't about leaping into the unknown, it's about making wise choices that last for the long-term. And their use of OO C was along those same lines, too.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Huh?
KDE CVS from yesterday on Pentium 233 with 64MB on Toshiba notebook. Konqueror runs pretty fast thank you...
You might want to use the packages for your distribution, since those packages are with "release-final" compiled option which removes lots of unnecesary stuff.
Hetz (Heunique)
See I have used it before with Enlightenment once upon a kernel 2.0.14 ago, and it seemed bloated as all hell to me...
As others have already pointed out, Enlightenment and Gnome were a bad combo from the get go. Sawfish has turned out to be far more complimentary to Gnome, and thus loses much of that bloated feeling. A truly fair comparison, if for only yourself, would be to run up Gnome 1.2 with Sawfish as the wm. Heck, you might also want to try Enlightenment all by itself as well.
I also primarily run KDE or BlackBox as my desktop, but there are features of Gnome that I do miss when doing so. First one in my mind is the ability to drag an application to different desktop. Being able to run my mouse to the border of the screen and have it jump to the next. On a more minor note, being able to drag and drop applets or launchers to and from how ever many toolbars you want to set up. Just a few things that KDE still doesn't do well to this day.
So why am I still primarily using KDE? I personally feel that the efforts gone into the presentation of the desktop have really shown through. The way windows respond to the user. The look and feel of the various widgets, especially stuff like drop down boxes. More importantly, I find that I really prefer many of the apps written for KDE over those for Gnome. Stuff like Konqueror, KMail, KVirc, as well as up and comers like KOffice are some of the best apps for what they do. Additionally, it seems that GTK apps run nicer in KDE than QT apps run in Gnome. This may point out a failure on KDE's part, but as an end user I'm mostly interested in whichever combination works best.
I fully intend to upgrade Gnome to 1.4 when it hits final release and give it a fair run through. Of course I'll be doing the same with KDE 2.1 as well. As others have mentioned already, try the darn things out and see what fits you. I wish I had a magic wand to wave over both of these projects to extract all the good stuff for the single perfect desktop environment. Until that wand comes off of backorder, trying out what is available is the best you can do.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
"One thing about it that really hacks me off is that it is trying to be a whole desktop in itself. It puts icons on my root window (noooo!!!!!)..."
Understand that Nautilus *is* part of GNOME, so it IS going to be the desktop manager (IE the icons on the DT).
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
All this is still in the range of usability for me ... but I figured (wrongly, maybe), that both Konqueror and Nautilus, having so much more features than their 1.x couterpart, also required better hardware to run properly. This is the reason why, having a relatively old box, I am glad that 'first generation' tools like gmc are still around for a while.
Ciao
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FB
I've built gnome for Solaris 2.6 using Paul Barnfather's excellent instructions found here
Have fun!
Isn't that a violation of anti-trust laws?
"You stay away from our customers we'll stay off yours."
?
Don't you think it's a little silly for a file manager to manage the desktop icons, background, and whatever else? That's what drag and drop and GNOME Control Center are for. Some people might not want the overhead of Nautilus on their GNOME desktop.
This kind of silliness dates from KDE 1.x, and was long ago thrown away by the KDE camp themselves. I guess this kind of silliness will be thrown away in GNOME 3.0 since they will be aiming low for GNOME 2.0.
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
Assuming he wasn't trolling, I think it's a legitimate question. Sure most of us have probably made our KDE/GNOME choice already, but it'd be interesting to know if there are any compelling reasons why anyone should consider switching.
I was hoping that in this version that they would have anti-aliasing setup...
Either I'm blind, I was mistaken, or I have the wrong libraries installed. On debian, it installed a bunch of packages like libgtk-1.2.9-ximian.4, so I think apt-get got the right stuff....
Anyone else know?
I was seeking mozilla/FreeBSD build informations on google this morning.
Ximian bought the "mozilla" keyword, so all my anwsers were spammed with the 'ximian linux gnome desktop' link. I don't know, but I feel uneasy with that. More specifically, I stopped trusting Ximian.
Cheers,
--fred
It seems most of stigmatic's earlier trolls are of the "random Eminem song given Slashdotty lyrics" type. It's nice to see these people broaden their horizons with more karma whorific efforts.
Isn't there a factual error there, however? "once upon a kernel 2.0.14"? I thought 2.0.14 predated Gnome 1.0 by almost a year, and considering that 1.0 should have been called "0.5" I shudder to think what the alpha versions were like.
please, could someone tell me how to use kde with another wm? thanks a lot
What do ya think KDesktop is?:P It's konqueror you twit.
signature smigmature
- James
GMC has been putting icons on the desktop. Konquerer also does it. Explorer does it too.
.gnome-desktop folder for that.
;)
If you think you want a root window that cannot be put files in, use a plain window manager and not a desktop environment. Desktop environments PUT FILES ON YOUR DESKTOP. And I like it. Thanks.
Drag and drop? Hm. As far as I know it has nothing to do with putting files on desktop and having a
I agree with you on the background picture though
imlib-1.9.8.1-2_helix_2
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Celebrate the finer things in life
Linux v. Windows: that's serious.
Dave
Sounds like you work for MS. If you like W2k, use it. Linux was designed to be tinkered with. Can you say the same for windows?
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution, to...protect me from the enemy, myself
Sigh, where are the mod points when you need 'e? +1 funny
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
I think that two arguements have crept into this one thread.
:)]
The thread started as "Linux Desktops SUCK - Linux SUCKS on the deskTOP", which is refering to the X environment.
so,
Firstly, for the people who read this as a generalised "Linux Sucks" thread - Linux does not suck! Linux is a very powerfull operating systems, it beats Windows and Mac OS without any problem. It is far more powerfull, and much more stable that any of those.
For the people who read this thread as it was intended (IMO) The linux X environment could be a lot better, but I don't think it is as bad as you make it out to be. Okay, windows has a very polished look, I admit the mouse seems to respond much better than under X, but look at how slow windows is due to all the unneccasary extras such as HTML explorer windows. I'd much sooner have a neat/clean looking desktop than the CPU intensive look of a Windows desktop. [twm rules
Aaaarrrghhhh!! I can't take any more!
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Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
Maybe, /opt is not could for everyone, but what I was really getting at is that all the version I have seen, including the one done by HelixCode installs Gnome in /usr, rather than /usr/gnome or something. Having everything Gnome related installed in the same folder makes it much easier to administer, rather than having installed with the other CLI stuff.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I use rxvt most of the time because it does take up less memory and the better scrollbar (useful if you are running X on an old M68K based Mac). However, I like the way that one can change the keyboard translations for xterm compared to rxvt (this is useful for emulating specialized terminals that are vt100 compatible w/ the exception of the function keys). With xterm, you can do put the following in your ~/.Xdefaults file:
and then run xterm with the parameter "-name STerm" to enable them. With rxvt, you have to use the keysyms like the following: and then run rxvt with the '-name STerm' parameter. However, this only works if rxvt has been compiled with KEYSYM_RESOURCE. On the systems that I have access to, this doesn't appear to be the case. I can certainly recompile and change that, but in some instances I can't.the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Interesting. Now isn't it a good explanation of Sun and MS giving out Solaris and Windows CE source code but not allowing people to modify?
Call me a conspiracist. They want developers look into the OS codes to make their programs use more kernel-specific functionalities and thus decreasing portabilities.
The Fifth Toe is a release of packages that are not part of Gnome proper but work with Gnome. They include things like office applications, utilities, applets, games, and chat programs. They can be found in pub/gnome/stable/betas/gnome-fifth-toe-1.4beta1 on ftp.gnome.org and should soon propagate to the mirrors.
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Celebrate the finer things in life
Just Wait until Windows XP comes out sporting the most God awful, butt ugly interface I have ever seen. Windows 2000 may be a decent single user workstation, but If you have a few seperate users you find out fast just how difficult that thing can be to manage.
Linux has many flaws, but atleast I can teach everyone how in my household how to use it, and keep everyone from installing unwanted software and avoid damaging my installation.
Windows may have alot of good applications, but how many people have/know what to buy/can afford them? Most of the windows users make do with the preinstalled garbage they got with their computer, aside from 1 or 2 apps they bought (and had to get me to install for them)
As much as it pains me, I will bow my head and agree with your XP comment.
Way to go Gnome...
Stability is not the only reason to choose Linux. What about the open design? Isn't it comforting knowing that Linux doesn't try to lock you into something? Or hide some specifics from you? When I hear things like Microsoft embedding media security into Windows, I cringe.
The apps available on Linux are quite good. I'd much rather use Konqueror than IE. In fact, KDE2 as a whole is fantastic. I'm never wishing I had this-or-that from Windows. In fact, it's usually the other way around.
Here's an interesting story. I work in a small company (see my url) developing games. Our next project (a Gameboy Advance game) will be entirely developed on Linux. Why? I just like it better. I like the "Unix way." You'll have a hard time convincing me to develop on another platform.
For application development we'll be using Qt. This has the added benefit of easing migration, since our apps would run on Windows as well.
It's good that Windows is now more stable than before, but frankly that isn't a good enough reason to switch OS's. In fact, that's probably why so many people still use Windows 98.
-Justin
Of course, OS/2 fell by the wayside, but they have what they promised now, in the form of Linux. And since the platform is completely open, it can never be co-opted by any one company.
It's nice being able to choose to move a PowerPC or Alpha platform and still having the same operating environment and programmer's APIs. Single users and trolls may not recognize the value this provides, but big companies are increasingly doing so.
As a side note, a lot of those companies are so Linux clueless it's enough to make you cry. Linux is no more a magic bullet than any thing else in this industry that has promised to be a magic bullet. If you try to throw Linux at a project and then manage it badly, your project's still going to fail. As I found out, you need to interview the company you're thinking of working for as thorougly as they interview you. If they seem to have no process, no version control, or a bunch of Windows programmers re-implementing Linux Standard libraries to look like Windows APIs (for example,) you should run (not walk) the other way.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Ximian Gnome is available for Mandrake from (for example) http://spidermonkey.ximian.com/distributions/Mandr ake-7/ (as well as via the Ximian installer) and this includes 7.2-specific versions of some packages.
I should point out that the URL above refers to the current Ximian Gnome, not 1.4Beta1.
One minor thing that I appreciate about KDE 2, that Gnome still hasn't go right, is that it is installed in /opt - partly because this makes it easier to locate files and keeps a 'neater' system. I am fed of my /usr and /usr/local becoming an application install waste bin.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
KDE has some classes to help apps find their files via configureable search paths - basically, you just set $KDEDIRS to something like /usr:/usr/local:/usr/local/kthingy
/usr (as they were packaged) but have had no troulbe installing others elsewhere if they came from source. It's simple enough (except for the odd app with a crappy configure script that won't do --prefix right, but those are rare and the apps generally still runs once I do get the files where I want them)
and it checks them in that order. Works like a charm.
As far as interapplication communication, that's all done via the dcopserver, which uses a UNIX domain socket that lives somewhere in ~/.kde I think.
I have the bulk of my KDE apps installed into
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
KDE really doesn't force you to use their WM either. It was true to some extent in KDE1 that stupid things would happen (like kpanel launching for no obvious reason) if you didn't run the full DE, but I've been happily using KDE{2.0-pre,2.0,2.1-pre} apps in blackbox for quite some time now.
Works great.
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
While the GNOME and KDE teams have produced excellent work, their focus on destroying each othjer concerns me. Ximian does dodgy things with Google adwords, KDE calls GNOME `legacy' in their theme importer.
Face it. Neither QT/KDE or GTK/GNOME are going away. Can we start having some interoperation between the desktop environments? The complete lack on inconsistency in the Linux desktop (real users choose ap[ps based on quality, not toolkit religion) hurts Linux far more then competition helps it.
Let people choose between GNOME and KDE. But let my apps have consistent user interfaces, common dialogues, theming engines, drag and drop (xdnd is a joke - used Konqueror FTP on GNOME recently)?, panel applets, and hopefully object model (KDE can do Bonobo components with Xparts - but I'd prefer a more uifies solution).
It ain't Highlander. There's CAN be more than one,a nd there will be. So if you want to increase the usuability of the Linux desktop, deal with and start talking to the opposite camp.
The competition is Windows.
actually, konqueror doesn't.
:-)
kfm used to, and that pissed people off so now it doesn't (isn't it nice to listen to your users?).
So now konqueror is just a nice filemanager, kdesktop puts the icons on your desktop if you want them there. Both use the same libraries, inherit their views from the same classes, etc so it's still consistent, and you can run one, the other, or both at your choice. If they want to talk to each other, that's what DCOP is for.
Makes using konqueror as a nice filemanager and web browser outside of KDE positively nice
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
Well, you can always install both and try them out. :-) For me the reason I always prefered gnome over KDE was the freedom to change window managers (as well as pretty much anything else, GNOME is very flexible). I'm finicky like that. Actually now since I found that all I was using gnome for was a program launcher, I dropped it completely in favor of Enlightenment (0.16.5 at the moment). Saves some ram (which is a good thing when I fire up vmware and xmms at the same time ;-) ).
At the same time, what I've seen of KDE 2.x looks nifty. I think a lot of it boils down to personal preference, technologically they're pretty much the same. So use whatever makes you happy/productive/whatever. :-)
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"Overrated" is "overfuckingused".
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Errm yes, but that should be an implementation note in the documentation.
I agree that there is NO SUCH THING as a completely black box - I have spent a fair amount of time wading around, for example, in the Swing source. Most of the time though, that is either to learn how to do things better, or because some of the documentation is crap.
The trouble with your sort example, is that, as the API supplier I am not bound to keep the same implementation. Your example's not a bad one because it doesn't really break encapsulation too much. It's the kind of hacks that expose underlying data-types (in unsafe languages such as C) and do horrible things with an ADT's innards. That (which I know you weren't advocating) is not a good idea...
Actually Konqueror does *not* put icons on the desktop. The old KFM did, but this function has been seperated out in "kdesktop" which makes sense imho.
--
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
Some of the new features in Gnome 1.4 include:
User level
* Nautilus
* enhanced display manager
* better KDE interoperability
* better support for legacy X applications
* application launch feedback
* improved Panel
* integrated Sawfish window manager
* Improved help browser and help system
* Usability and quality improvements throughout
* Fifth Toe release including a broad collection of apps that run on
GNOME.
Developer level
* gnome-vfs - Virtual file system allowing transparent access to local
and remote files.
* Bonobo component model - technology preview
* xml-i18n-tools - better internationalization and localization tools
* GConf - Advanced configuration/settings system with notification and
pluggable back ends
* Medusa search/indexing system
* Laguage bindings - C++, python, guile, rep
The Fifth Toe is a set of applications that are not part of Gnome proper but work with Gnome. They include office applications, games, a few panel applets, utilities, and chat programs. Here's a list of the current set of Fifth Toe packages:
gmc 4.5.51
Gnumeric 0.61
Dia 0.86
Guppi 0.35.2
AbiWord 0.7.12
GnuCash 1.4.10
Sodipodi 0.21
gnome-db 0.2.3
toutdoux 1.2.4
Anjuta IDE 0.1.2
MemProf 0.4.1
gob 1.0.6
gal 0.5
gtkhtml 0.8.2
The GIMP 1.2.1
eog 0.6
GnomeICU 0.95.5
gabber 0.8.2pre1
galeon 0.9.0
gtm 0.4.5
Pan 0.9.3
Balsa 1.0.0
Firestarter 0.6.0
gnomoku 1.0
bombermaze 0.6.4
XPenguins
Applet 0.9beta1
Atomix 0.4.1
gedit 0.9.4
Glimmer 1.0.1
gfax 0.4.2
Figaro's
Password
Manager 0.53
radioactive 1.1
Merlin's
CPU Fire
Applet 0.1.0
googlizer 0.1
gnorpm 0.96
gnome lokkit 0.43
The Fifth Toe packages can be found (in tarball form) on ftp.gnome.org (and soon they'll propagate to the mirors) in the pub/gnome/stable/betas/gnome-fifth-toe-1.4beta1 directory.
----
Celebrate the finer things in life
This is the official order of compilation if you want to take the ./configure route, as posted on the gnome-1.4 mailing list:
Development Platform
-----------------
xml-i18n-tools
libxml
audiofile
esound
imlib
glib
gtk+
gdk-pixbuf
ORBit
oaf
GConf
control-center
gnome-vfs
gnome-libs
gnome-print
bonobo
ammonite
medusa
libghttp
libglade
libgtop
Language Bindings
---------------
libsigc++
gtkmm
gnomemm
panelmm
rep-gtk
gnome-python
gnome-guile
Core desktop
---------------
bug-buddy
gdm
ggv
ghex
glade
gnome-core
gnome-applets
gnome-games
gnome-media
gnome-pim
gnome-utils
gtop
nautilus
xalf
sawfish
gtk-engines
Non-code
----------------
gnome-audio
gnome-user-docs
--
Kiro
I know this is a troll, but I'm a sucker.
1) actually, most people who write Linux apps get jobs writing linux apps.
2) compiling from source is a blessing, not a curse. Why? because I can build it with whatever optimization I please, and even build it for my specific chipset. You can't do that with binaries, because everyone has different chipsets. There are a lot of other advantages to building from source, but I won't enumerate them here.
3) If you don't want to compile from scratch, DONT! Use a popular distribution, and just get binaries.
4) In an enterprise setting, having the source is absolutely necessary. You need it both to (a) make changes if necessary, and (b) see how it actually works underneath, to improve your understanding of the product so you can use it more effectively.
5) Many people really like the GNOME interface, me being one of them.
As for the advantages of Linux, try these out:
a) not tied to a particular hardware platform, can use the one most suited to your needs
b) easy implementation of load-balancers
c) common operating platform for routers, load-balancers, server, and workstation machines. Makes maintenance easier
d) very fast
e) prunable - its easy to remove everything you don't need. Nothing is hidden from you
f) plays well with others - almost every moderately-sized environment is a mixed environment. Contrary to what the commercials say, W2K does not play nicely in such an environment.
g) lock-in - it doesn't matter how good W2K is now, because you've locked yourself in with a single company, and you are now dependent on that company. no such lockin exists for Linux
h) Linux is easier-to-use and faster in real-world situations, especially in the server room. Not easier to learn, easier to use.
Anyway, just some anti-trolls.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Heh, all 5 app launchers on my panel are terminals. Never noticed that before. The only Gnome apps I really use are PAN and Gnapster, the others are "environment independant" (mozilla, staroffice, and of course, pine).
chris@xanadu:~$ whatis /.
/.: nothing appropriate.
I don't see what the big hype is over Kde. I've been using a steady combination of GNOME and icewm, and have had little need for Kde. What are some of uses anyone else has put it too? .... Had ... one ......... sip of ..
... ... ... ... yet
See I have used it before with Kwm once upon a kernel 2.0.14 ago, and it seemed bloated as all hell to me so I stood away from it, as far
away as I could. Is it still bloated in comparison to other versions, does it make anyone's load go sky high? I don't mind tinkering with things but I
often think about back in the days when I was in school on a cruddy PC and how much installing rev's would just choke my machine up, and imagine
everyone who is reading this story about to snarf, wget, ftp to get this latest beta. Anyone with a comparison of Kde to anything else? I don't
wanna sound like a nitpicky pr#ck so early in the afternoon, but (mimmicking Captain Kirk) Damnit Jim I haven't
coffee
The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
Yea it Sucks if your not intellegent enough to learn how to use it.
If you need your hand held with a start menu, and have to use wizards for everything Linux is not for you. Stick with windows, if you don't mind rebooting every now and then then that's great.
Stay with what works for you, if you don't mind being tonld how your desktop will function.
Gnome is totally customizable, you want a menu bar, you got it, don't like any icons on your desktop (like me), you can do that too. Try deleting the My Computer Icon in windows, I'm sorry dave i can't do that right now.
When first switching to linux, yes there is a learning curve, but eventually you will realize the power gnome and other desktop environments give you.
--
"Thinking is the hardest job there is. Probly why so few of us do" Henry Ford
It's HTTP, not FTP.
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-1.4-list/200
Note that there is a offical test plan at:
http://www.gnome.org/~mjs/gnome-test-plans/
It is interesting how everyone on this list argues how great Linux is compared to Windows 2000. I have been using different variants of Linux since 1994 and I disagree very deeply with everyone that has posted here. Windows 2000 is not bad, as a matter of fact, I have completely erased my Linux partition all together...something I never thought I would do. Windows 2000 doesn't crash nearly as much as people on Slashdot claim it does. Linux was far less stable than Windows 2000 on any given day. Linux is not that incredibly fast either. I had Linux Mandrake 7.2 installed and loading from BIOS to KDE 2.0 desktop without disk thrashing actually took longer than Windows 2000 on the exact same machine (dual boot). Slashdot posters are exactly the same people I used to enjoy "bandwagoning" with when I fought for OS/2 to the death with everyone in the world. IE is not bad either, it can render many, many more pages than Konqueror or (insert here) can on any given day. Windows 2000 doesn't play nice? At my university we have a Netware/OpenVMS/VAX/NT/Solaris mixed environment in which Windows 2000 hasn't given me a single problem yet. Maybe the people who say it doesn't play nice really don't have the first clue how to intergrate Windows in their network. Just because you like free software such as Samba and NFS which may or may not play nice with anything at all except itself, maybe you should try and understand that maybe it isn't Windows 2000, it's you and/or Linux that is the problem. Why is everything in Linux "so great"? I can start Windows 2000, log in, click on the icon I have set up on my desktop for VC++ and have my programming needs met without any problem in between. Office 2000 Premium also has never, ever crashed or caused me a problem and I type many, many papers every single day. It is light years ahead of StarOffice 5.2 or (insert here) in Linux. When I want to play my favorite 3D game, I also do not have to spend 20+ hours fucking with X-Windows trying to make it not lock up or crash while accessing my 3D hardware...when in Windows I simply download the driver for my card, DirectX 8.0a, and every single game everywhere written for 3D works out of the box. Linux is something I didn't mind when I had 100+ hours a week I could dedicate to fucking around with it hoping to make (insert here) work like or even hopefully "better" than its identical Windows version. Who really cares about "closed source" software in the big picture of the world? So called "Open Source" software has a lot of great ideas that "look great" on paper...but if "millions of eyeballs" are constantly looking over the code and such, then why does 99% of all Linux software have serious problems, lack of anything new or original, serious fucking stability and usability problems throughout, lack of "any" features except millions of "stub" functions and menus...eh? Maybe people can't understand the fact that a few, good, dedicated programmers can accomplish a incredible amount more in a much shorter amount of time than the current "open source" model. Everyone here has a religious battle in their own minds and think everyone else truly cares. Linux needs to become "exactly" what every who uses a computer really wants....the ability to simple turn it on and use it, then turn it off and go on with the important things in your life. Those important things do not include spending 100+ hours fucking with Linux to make sure it is current and works like it's closed source version already does. I am sure that this post will piss off all of the Linux Zealots...but who really cares? Making something such as Linux "god-like" when it is not is only a lose/lose idea and ideology to follow. Everything has it's time and place. Linux as a truly usable desktop environment? This reminds of OS/2 and it is heading in exactly the same direction with the exact same "blind" following OS/2 did..."open source" or not. Has anyone else thought that maybe the Linux "movement" is powered by the "poor", "cheap", and/or "penny pinching"? Just a thought. I don't mind paying for (insert here) if it works and does what I need.
i love keeping up with ximian gnome.
havings to jump through a gazillion hoops to keep up with evolution and nautilus as well has proven suckly.
looking forward to hoopless upgrade goodness.
seriously.
One thing that has really irked me in previous releases of GNOME, is that all the components and gnome-aware programs needed to be installed in the same directory for them to interoperate properly.
If one wants to maintain different versions of applications simultaneously, this is a royal pain in the neck. It's also irksome, in that it makes management of software through use of different application directories more awkward (forcing install directory != run directory, and a forest of symlinks.)
Does GNOME 1.4 finally address this issue, with some sort of search path mechanism? Does KDE suffer from similar issues? (Yes, this is something that aggravates me enough, that it could entice me to switch my desktop preference!)
I like gnome for the fact that there is an element of "pick and mix" to it - i run WindowMaker but have gnome installed and make good use of several of the tools that come with it. My only problem is with several programs which do things beyond what I need to do - such as the fact that gmc insists on popping up the gnome desktop every time I run it. Getting a full working desktop environment for Linux will will certainly be an important step, but the gnome developers need to remember people that make use of gnome tools without running the whole environment.
were you expecting to see a sig here? perhaps you'd rather see the inside of an ambulance!
the gnome that ships with mdk7.2 is ancient. Mandrake is anti-gnomian and ximian returns the favor by not releasing packages for 7.2. :-(
get the latest gnome anyway and see what Mandrake doesn't want you to know about.
Johnny Quest has two Daddies.
4) ... (b) see how it actually works underneath, to improve your understanding of the product so you can use it more effectively.
Interesting comment - IMHO it doesn't square well with the idea of encapsulation. I agree that looking at someone else's source code is informative, educational and interesting, but is it really necessary to use their app properly? Are you describing a symptom of poor documentation, or something that is deeper and more philosphical?
Yes, the strength of GNOME lies in the choice of application languages - because they used C as their base language. That was my point.
As far as dealing with technical issues first, they are actually using CORBA, as opposed to KParts. With CORBA, they didn't come up with something that just works for that purpose, they chose something with more long-term applicability.
Engineering and the Ultimate
As far as (2)- I was an early gnome adopter, switched back to Windowmaker, and only this school year switched back. It is vastly, vastly more stable than it used to be, and many fewer memory leaks. In my (admittedly very limited) experience with KDE 2.0, Gnome 1.2/1.4 has better "look/feel," some better apps (evo will shortly crush anything in it's path), and is generally much more configurable than KDE. That's my two cents...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Bloated version of 98? It's a completely differenct kernel. Visual Studio is great for programming. I know it cost money but I would take pay before I would use g++ and vi. You get what you pay for. Yes I do support MS but I also support Linux. I really hope linux does what so many people think it can do. Take over the desktop. I just get tired of hearing people say that it is better than Windows when it is nowhere close to windows.(just as a desktop for average users) The truth is good programmers don't sit around and program free and that is exactly what linux seems to depend on...
If you don't like the new interface they put into WindowsXP you can always turn it off. Some of the icons will be different (seems just like a refresh) but you can have your old Win2k like interface just like you maybe used to.
Silly Rabbit...Sig's are for kids.
Hi, Konqueror has truly become a first-class browser. It is simply amazing, and IMHO the best web browser available for Linux. However I have not tried Nautilus because GNOME is too hard to install on Debian Slink. How does Nautilus compare to Konqueror?
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
What's the big hype over KDE?
What's the big hype over (The GUI that you like to hate)?
People use what they like, end of story.
.NOT
You don't have to use it. In fact, we'd be better off if you ignored it. However, it is a free software project and is, therefore, of interest to some of us. I suggest you ignore any threads involving Gnome and you won't be frustrated over the "hype".
What are some of uses anyone else has put it too?
Mostly, I use it as a launch bar for running stuff like xterms, emacs, and netscape. Occasionally I use some of the tools, but they aren't of much use to me as I established my Linux-use-habits well before Gnome or KDE (I spent quite a bit of time using Linux without X in '92-'94).
Ximian packages are available for at least Red Hat 6 and 7. Get them while they're fresh. Unfortunately they don't include the Fifth Toe packages, which will probably be one of the biggest changes your average user will note over 1.2.
run blackbox or sawfish by itself and yeah, it'll be slow pulling down the menus and animated gif's will slow you down big time, but it's usable (i run it on a p120 + 48mb of RAM at work)
"I keep looking in the want-ads under 'revolutionary' but there don't seem to be any listings.. "
Is it me, or are all the people who trashed me have no user name? Only known as Anonymous Coward? My friends agree with me on the opinion that Win2k is just a bloated version of win98, I look around all three Windows systems and they pretty much are the same to me, with subtle differences, but still, esstientially the same.
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
Yep, they've been removed by now. But only after the letter I've linked to had been published. They realized that this was counterproductive, even marketing-wise. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that they found it well worth trying.
"We won't use guns, we won't use bombs, we'll use the one thing we've got more of and that's our minds" - Pulp
Try this in a shell script: /usr/local/lynxbg.xpm -ut +sb -e lynx $* :)
I'm typing this in one of those right now...
exec rxvt -fn vga -fg white -bg black -tn rxvt -geometry 118x43+33+36 -name xlynx -pixmap
while 'vga' is a 8x16 VGA font, and lynxbg.xpm is available here, which was warped from some other image I found, possibly from E or Eterm or something. Moreover, I used the -name xlynx so that I could save WindowMaker settings to remove the titlebar and resizebar. Then I added it to the WM root menu and bound it to CTRL-SHIFT-L, so ^ShiftL brings up a purdy lynx screen in the center of my 1024x768 screen
the real at&t mix
Maintaining C is a pain in the ASS! And swing is just too immature. So that leaves LISP.
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what you say!
Sigh... I would like it if people would actually look at something before they judge... Allrighty then, here we go again: Gnome is not only the panel that you see. Gnome is an application framework that provides a lot of utility functions to programs, not only to make development faster/easier, but also to make applications look like 'a whole', eg common menu layout, common ok/cancel buttons, ... It also provides a consistent configuration method, and a lot more. What most people call 'gnome' (the panel) is just a small part of Gnome. Anyway, even the panel is very useful. WindowMaker also has the clip, so I don't see why everybody is always bitching 'gnome is bloated, windowmaker is better'. 'Bloat' is a heavily overused word lately, imnsho. If you don't like 'bloat' (which are 9 times out of 10 perfectly useful features, but everybody who doesn't use them calls them bloat), then press ctrl-alt-backspace now, and start using lynx.
Uhm this started as a reply to somebody asking about gnome, right %-) ?
I think that people behind the GNOME project are starting to use somekind of marketing strategies, that maybe good or maybe bad, you decide, but surely they are not usual between the free software community.
I'm using GNOME mainly because I prefer C over C++, but as always competition is the mother of evolution... so keep on it!
- german
But my opinion changed when I tried the Gnome that ships with mandrake 7.2-it is much faster than before, stability is similar to KDE-I have yet to have it lock up on me or blow X out of the waters. I still prefer KDE, but the choice no so easy to make now.
But really, you should know that if you like KDE, stick with it, and don't worry what anyone else uses.