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Python Painfully Ported to Palm; Plan is "Peer-to-Peer"
An Anonymous Coward gave us the excuse for the above headline with this note: "Endeavors Technology has "successfully developed a highly optimized, open source port of Python to the Palm OS platform" It's called Pippy. The press release is also there. Nice!" Here's a story about the situation.
For the record, Rob Tillotson has created Pyrite, which was compatible to Python 1.5, for the Palm. He has some of the details at http://www.pyrite.org.
While he hasn't done any work on it since December of 1999, I think it's only fair to mention that someone else was there first, created a useable port for Python, & released it under a real GNU license, not some ersatz version.
The Free Source software community for the Palm needs to do a better job of reminding people that they exist, & what they have done for this computer appliance.
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
Sure! http://www.python.org/download
Of course, and I highly suspect it, I may be talking out of my ass. -oqti
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
Python Palm-platform ported!
Poster perusing preliminary press-release ponders programming Perl-free PDAs.
Preppie people prefer Python; Perl pedantic.
Python port "Pippy" passable? Possible. PythonLabs prepared port perfectly.
P2P Python programs particularly pleasant.
(Poster pitches "P"-filled post pre- particularly pernicious puns.)
This is very great news for me.
:-)*
When I bought a Visor Deluxe, I was horrified by the amount of shareware for the Palm.
Don't get me wrong, there is great shareware out there. I paid for GetRight back in my Windows days (I don't have Windows at all anymore). However, the shareware concept has created a fsckload of apps that do the same thing from a bunch of people who want to make a little money from their efforts. Open source allows the bunch of programmers to pool their efforts.
That's why I search SourceForge first for Palm apps.
I have LispMe on my Visor, but Python makes a world of difference. I only recently tried Python and it changed my programming life. I would never imagine making C++ apps for most things anymore, even though I was heavily trained in it.
I now use Python in place of bash in many situations. As a bash freak, that's impressive. I'll type 'python' and do something to a bunch of files now, among other things. I recently had a request from a support guy, "how can I do this" and I wrote a very short script in Python on paper and gave it to him. It would have been a PITA in any other scripting language.
There's a reason why people have been calling Python the "Pascal of scripting languages" recently. It's easy, but powerful. It enforces good style.
It seems that people that learn Python become obsessed with it. I haven't been let down.
I'll definitely downlaoad it. I expect it will be a world of fun. Have I mentioned how fun Python is?
ping?
"Python in Palm" seems more appropriate to me. When I was a kid, "pippy" was slang for penis. Do the math.
Same in German.
LOL. Maybe Poppy would have been better? Who the hell would say Python in Palm instead of Python on Palm?
Try OnBoard C http://www.individeo.net/OnBoardC.html
.prc executable or a HackMaster hack."
From the website: "OnBoard C is a C compiler, running native on the Palm. It compiles source from either MemoPad records or Doc files and builds a
Forth is a brilliantly designed language for what it does, but it's a pain for most people to think in. The RPN notation just doesn't mesh well with most peoples' cognitive styles.
Running Python on embedded platforms as a way to interact with them will be a very big win. There are a lot of lovely things about Python in this regard: the language is learnable in less than a day, you can easily read other peoples' code, the OOP model is well-designed, and the exception handling is very well thought-out and robust.
I am definitely hoping to have time to bring up a Python interpreter on the next embedded project I'll be working on. If I can release it publicly without violating any agreements, I will.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
I dunno if Pippy is much help for the current crop of Linux PDAs, which are pretty studly compared to PalmOS devices. I "ported" Python to Linux VR and it was just a matter of the usual crosscompile business, and removing modules that looked big. I left in the parser stuff. I forget whether I was targeting the Helio or the Agenda VR3 at the time, but it Just Worked (TM).
Are there any RAD Programming Apps for Palm? I am not a wizard at programming C and the Palm tends to intimidate me as a newbie programmer. I would love to see a bolt together app builder for Palm.
From the press release:
Pippy will make it easier for companies to build, port, and market new network-interoperable application programs while complementing other home automation (HAVi) and open services gateway initiative (OSGI) standards initiatives.
Does anyone know when these marketing droids will figure out that buzzwords don't make products more appealing? I know they aren't selling anything, but sheesh. "Gateway initiative standards initiative"?
Better throw something in there about the flux capacitors too...(only if we can generate 1.21 jiggawatts, though)
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
OS 4 really should be OS 3.7. It should run just fine on OS4.
--- http://homepage.mac.com/gregjsmith
It looks like this is just the begining and they will make some effort to reduce it's size. Having it run on older Palm hardware is the way to go.
--- http://homepage.mac.com/gregjsmith
Sed and Awk are there on the desktop. Use pipes.
That bugged me too at first, but I got used to it. It still sometimes freaks me out when a function ends at a large indentation, but the rest of the language just make too much sense.
ESR said pretty much the same thing on a story you'll find on python.org. I agree with him, except I still use Python for small things I don't want to do in bash.
I just loaded this up to my Palm IIIe, which has 2MB memory. I got a little notice saying Pippy really wanted PalmOS 3.5 but it seems to work anyway on my PalmOS 3.3. It requires 250K.
Waba, the stripped down Java VM only requires 74K. But, as the accompanying article says, Python is far nicer language to hack up applications in.
Geez I started learning Python two days ago and since then whenever I go i hear about it. Now that was a good decision.
Anyhow, they didn't mention if the optimized port still compiles on other architectures. It seems that standard Python on Linux takes some 1.4MB of memory (most of it shared), so this 191+64kB would be really nice, especially for embedding in other apps. But I guess the glibc libraries are bloat+++ compared to Palm's libraries.
For that matter, you can have braces with python too (they are commented braces, and are strictly optional)
There is a tool that comes with it (can't remember the name) that converts source back and forth, so that you can use python in non whitespace preserving environments.
Oh, it's called "pindent", and it looks like it uses 'end' statements rather than #{ or #} like I remember. Oh well, it can be changed easily...
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
Where were you? Java is dead
To the people who've said 'whats the point - I can do native code on this/that compiler' the point is, that you don't need to have a compiler, its kinda like Java, its CPU and (relatively) platform independant.
I can go up to my buddy, and beam my python script across from my MIPS based WinCE palmtop, to his Palm, and he can run it, no recompile, just run it. Pity about them removing the compiler, less memory is good, but fast startup once the code is written is important too.
One other way to think of it is as a shell, for when the GUI just can't do something, script it, quick easy, and half your PC's modules will just import straight in - well, thats been my experience with Python on a palmtop.
I now write my file smashing scripts in a combination of bash and python I call "bashon". This caters to the strengths of both: bash for macro substitution and system commands, python for writing readable code that does nontrivial things. For example, a bashon script that makes n files (3rd parameter) named "foo###" (2nd parameter) in directory xxx (1st parameter) on test partition hda7:
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I now use Python in place of bash in many situations. As a bash freak, that's impressive. I'll type 'python' and do something to a bunch of files now, among other things. I recently had a request from a support guy, "how can I do this" and I wrote a very short script in Python on paper and gave it to him. It would have been a PITA in any other scripting language.
I now write my file smashing scripts in a combination of bash and python I call "bashon". This caters to the strengths of both: bash for macro substitution and system commands, python for writing readable code that does nontrivial things. For example, a bashon script that makes n files (3rd parameter) named "foo###" (2nd parameter) in directory xxx (1st parameter) on test partition hda7:
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Well, CGI... But I can certainly see pulling Zope objects around with a stylus.
An equally important reason is speed. Have you tried Java on a PDA? I have it flashed into a helio, a 75 MHz., 32-bit RISC processor with 8 meg or RAM and it takes about 10-15 seconds to switch between apps,. These are *really small* demo apps. Hopefully Python works better. I think it's a safe bet it works a lot better. I'll get a palm now just to use this, and hopefully get this happening on the helio too.
This is finally the point where PDA's get my attention. Coming soon: Python on your cell phone.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Why Palm?
Try Something smaller like a true REX palm top. My goodness you might as well be carrying arround an ENIAC.
And why use such a large virtual machine, last time I looked the FORTH compiler was only 4K, not the 191K of storage / 64K heap of PALM Python.
TastesLikeHerringFlavoredChicken
People pressing puns perilously presume people like them.
Alliteration was never my strong suit.
The scary thing is, I bet this won't be the last post like this. Hell, I bet it ain't even the first.
-------------------------------------------------
I just got an handheld from Agenda, running a 2.4 kernel, and it's pretty neat. Can even telnet into it, now it just needs a ton of developers and apps .... get working guys.
I have a very small mind and must live with it.
-- E. Dijkstra
Python has always been a superior language to Perl, and its availibility on Palm should encourage its adoption substantially.
I predict that soon businesses will begin running web sites based on Palm-hosted Python CGI scripts. Beyond even the business sector, the low price of Palm computing devices will open up CGI programming to many home users that have been intimidated by using Perl on Unix style OS's.
- qpt
--
Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.
So my first question was: "What license is this released under?".
It's released under the "Pippy Open Source License Agreement Version 1", which looks like it'll pass the usual Open Source and Free Software tests. Here's the key part:
The rest is just the usual NO WARRANTY and such.
K45.
This signature has eleven vowels.
Where did the name Pippy come from?
The name Pippy was formed by appending the suffix ".PY" to the acronym PIP (Python In Palm). The name is reminiscent of Pippi Longstocking, a female fictional character of small stature, enormous strength, and unbounded free spirit.
Make it support the new PalmOS 4.0, and you'll have a winner.
I ported Linux to my Rio 500, and I'm routing IP between the USB port and headphone socket.
From the article:
"Our embedded group...want to be able to put the Python VM on anything that has metal and electricity."
How about a Van de Graaff generator?
The programmers combined the initials in the phrase "Python in Palm" (PIP) with the suffix that ends Python file names (.py) and dubbed the port "Pippy."
Gag me.
--
Sometimes nothing is a real cool hand.-- Cool Hand Luke
LispMe is available here
I prefer it to Python as it doesn't involve the regular usage of exotic Graffiti characters but now that other languages are finally coming,I just can't wait to have a Forth on my PalmIII!
--
Trolling using another account since 2005.
(I don't own a palm(-compatible) but I wish I did. Techie toy #1 on the post-graduation buy list.)
Doesn't the PocketC thing require the users to install a runtime or something? Are there any C-like environments for the Palm (that like PocketC run entirely on the device) that compile "pure" binaries (i.e. runtime-less)?
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
--Cycon
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
But if they're doing it over an IR port they're probably within arms' reach... So you can shoot them or stab them or pinch their nipple and make 'em holler for their mamma... :-) Come on, how many times have you wanted to get one of the 31337 hax0r d00ds in spanking range?
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
heh, in which case the frustration of doing any thing shell-related in graphitti and over a 1KB/day link is far more punishment than any private citizen could legally inflict on them...
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Seemingly slick slashdotter said scarcely simple subject string, sporting seven similarly started subdivisons; Salieri somehow synthesizes something superior.
An appropriately awesome alliteration assembles an acrimonious and astounding array. Moderators: maybe manage me many marks, making my morning?
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This means that we're one step closer to making the most evil timewasting and addictive piece of software ever written portable-- do these people really think that what they're doing is moral?
Matthew @ Bytemark Hosting
Wow, and just last night...
/. would know.
2001-02-23 23:50:39 Perl for Palm? (askslashdot,pilot)
It was about the fact that I'm trying to learn Perl, and is there palm port of it? I had found an answer in the "top ten perl myths" from 2/23/00, in which the author said a Palm port was in the works, but I wasn't satisfied with that. I figured, if there was something out there,
Note that it hasn't been rejected yet!
So now I can confuse myself by trying to learn both lanugages. Excellent....
-J
Karma: T-rexcellent.
_ _ _
I was working on a flat tax proposal and I accidentally proved there's no god.
Actually the name (python) derives from Monty Python. The inventors where looking for a snappy name and liked Monty Python movies. At least the FAQ says so...
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
IANAL, but here's my educated opinion. Take it with a grain of salt; only your attorney can give legal advice.
Clauses 1-5 and 7 look equivalent to the X11 and BSD2 licenses (non-copyleft license; no warranty; include the copyright notice in all copies). But clause 6 seems to kill GNU GPL compatibility:
RMS claims that the GPL doesn't allow "choice of venue clauses" (so as not to bring GPL'd software produced entirely outside the U.S. under the insane U.S. patent system).As much as I want to like this (I used to be a Pippi Longstocking fan), it looks like I won't be able to embed Python in my Palm OS applications.
All your hallucinogen are belong to us.
Will I retire or break 10K?
More like the early Mac world, actually. You've got the mindset described to a tee, though.
The truth is that the open-source mindset has only begun to percolate into the Palm world. (I thought it was terribly amusing and ironic, for example, that the first versions of LispMe were shareware. Imagine that -- the only important version of a language that came from the cradle of the Free Software movement was payware...) I think the funniest thing about this whole situation can be summed up like this: I've tried two different blackjack games on my Palm. The one I first tried was pretty good but payware; it didn't stick around long once I found BJ's Blackjack, which is open source and a somewhat better implementation to boot.
/brian
Well, I look at it this way: Free (as in beer) and free (as in speech) are not the same concept, but where you have the latter the former can't be left out. (It doesn't work the other way around, though...)
This is why Apple went with a per-package licensing scheme for MacOS X Server: with the core OS (Darwin) in the public record, it would be trivial to build a new kernel that would circumvent any licensing restrictions.
/Brian
Now I can use my Palm for more than just reading /. from the toilet!
cfeagans
Of course, I'm just wildly thrashing here. I don't care if this post gets modded up or down.
-Cyc
Apache 1.3.9b3 on palm.arm.body.org
/.'s 10 Millionth
The mindset of Palm programmers seems to be morbidly similar to that of most Windows programmers - develop an app, release it as Shareware with a nag screen and 30-day trial period, then try to make a few bucks by selling your software on PalmGear, so any project to further open development for the Palm is a big step forward.
On the downside, it appears that it wants a device with at least 4MB of memory (Sorry III, V and 2MB Visor owners...) and it doesn't seem to have the ability to create standalone PRC files (thats a standalone application file).
Some of the other alternatives for developing directly on your Palm (no PC necessary; these read MemoPad or DOC files with your source):
Quartus Forth: A standalone Forth interpreter/compiler that is quite powerful; however, the free version can't compile PRCs, and it costs $70 to register.
LispMe is a Scheme compiler, licensed under the GPL. Yummy. Now we just need a better way to write parentheses in graffiti...
PocketC is an onboard C compiler, distributed as shareware.
And, one musn't forget the ever-helpful Palm OS Programmers FAQ
all your alliteration are belong to us.
-wd
--
chip norkus(rl); white_dragon('net'); wd@routing.org
mercenary albino programmer for hire
"question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
Good. But I'm pissed that I forgot to post that as an Anonymous Coward. :)
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
Ok ok ok , I conceed the hack-value "because we can" is there - but in order to make python fit on the palm they had to remove floating point number support and a whole lot of other stuff. Wouldn't it be wiser to work of a more capable platform ?
On the other hand I guess this is good news for embedded server market, small footprint python could be useful for those programmers that like to code embedded stuff in the nude (remember *THAT* LJ issue =) )
--
Jon - TheSpork
How the hell can this be overrated if it wasn't modded up to begin with? Hello? Is there anybody.................out there?
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. - "Big Al" Einstein
Here is an embedded port of the Python interpreter: http://www.abo.fi/~iporres/python/
I have had a python in my palm at least once a day for years! (Sorry, had to say this.)
Yup, this port uses Stackless Python to the best of my knowledge (but you could get a more certain answer by going straight to Jeff Collins). Unfortunately they haven't included the continuation module or the microthread module. Chris Tismer has plans eventually to move a lot of the microthread machinery to C, and maybe at that point, it will find its way into the Palm port.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
FYI...
:)
My employer, MontaVista Software, has ported Python to the embedded platforms we support (I forget if it's been in a release yet... but it is likely that a supported Python port will be available in or for our CDK2 release).
Also, someone (outside the company, forget who) has ported an older version of the Python interpreter (pre-1.5.2) to run entirely without an OS... though that port was, of course, missing major functionality (eg. file support).
Of course, I'm just a ground-level grunt... and I'm not speaking for my employer just now. Mmm-ker, everyone?
Good news! Does anyone know if this python can be port to other platforms?
In the README they say "There is a GUI problem with PalmOS 3.0 that we are investigating", and at startup it warns me that I don't have at least PalmOS 3.5, but I just wrote some trivial code in and so far I haven't seen any problems with running it on 3.0.
Anyone discover what the issues with 3.0 are yet? Anyone dare try some serious recursion?
K45
This signature has eleven vowels.
It would be even better if the Pippy folks made sure it runs on embedded Linux and the BSDs as well. Of course, I'd also like to see the Python folks spend a bit of time making the Pippy subset a part of their thinking. Call it "Factored Python" or some such.
This strikes me as a really useful path for Python as a whole to pursue. I really like Python's general runtime model, and an extremely lightweight version would be valuable for all sorts of things.