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Agenda Linux PDA Finally Out
MacauMan writes "Finally, after six months delay, Agenda Computing has just
released the Agenda
VR3, which, if I'm not mistaken, is now the world's first
PDA that ships with a Linux OS. It sports a 66MHz MIPS processor and comes with 8MB
RAM and 16MB flash memory. It looks like a nice little box, and at
$249 the price is right. I just hope they sorted out all those little
problems they had with the developer model..." The folks at Agenda shipped me a review model and I'll try to have a report soon. So far I have mixed feelings: the UI isn't as smooth as a Palm or Wince system, but you can get a terminal, so its the only system where I can use ps and kill.
I hit Kuro5hin a lot (hell, I designed the moderation system), though I agree with you on story content -- K5 got grabbed by a bunch of HS/College PoliSci types. I think it's getting a bit better than it had been for a while, but the article focus is way off. Submission system needs a lot of work.
There's a community that gelled over at the old InfoWorld Electric forums (mostly under Nick Petreley's columns) which now hangs at IWETHEY. The group's getting a little long in the tooth, but still is good for a read on stuff. Looking for a new home though -- EZBoard's forum SW basically stinks.
I do a lot of email -- mostly Debian lists, a few discussions of other topics. Many forums seem to be quieting down though as people ride out the downturn. Definitely interesting times.
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Someone said kuro5shin, which is probably true for some people. I'm not too interested in the focus over there, however. Too much discussion of politics, religion, and sex. :)
Really, though, Slashdot was neat because for a time because more often than you would expect, the people doing the neat things you read about in the articles would be posting in the comments as well. That's not so common anymore.
$249 is pretty average for handhelds (a bit more than an average Palm-type, less than an average Wince-type handheld. If you're waiting for PDAs to get down to the sub $100 price point, you might want to start looking around for old used Palm IIIs.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
Rob's torn between a bad interface and his neverending bias for Linux? I don't see much here to debate. If it's not as slick as the palm or WinCE or whatever, well, end of story. It's not as easy to use.
If I put a linux sticker on a block of wood, would you buy it?
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
I noticed in the developer FAQ that the Agenda uses its Flash ROM as a disk storage device, with RAM being used only for execution space. Given that Flash ROM deteriorates if rewritten too many times, I'm not sure if that's such a good idea.
How are you networking with that?
The Doctor What (KF6VNC)
Old /.'er? Heh... I guess I could say I'm one.
It's exactly this SHOUTING MATCH of wanna-be whiners is why I'm drifting away from Slashdot. That, and the *shitty* moderation system that rewards too-frequent posting, or people with dummy accounts. I see Slashdot spiraling downwards into that "was-cool-once" memory bin.
I suspect there are more people using warez copies of Windows XP than Linux.
I've been waiting for AGES for a Linux handheld, besides the expensive and Linux-unsupported iPaq/Itsy. I still need to justify the expense, but I think it's impressive to be able to port a Linux app right over, and with one ability to code you can write for two "platforms".
It's a pity that the Itsy was never released (AFAIK) to the public. Although current PDAs offer similar specs, the design was cool back then.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Oh yeah? Well, I'm announcing an anti-gravity belt today. If anyone else actually ships one before me, they'll just be blatant thieves!
It has more memory than a palm as well. ANY palm. Palm max mem 8M, Agenda 16Meg + 8Meg....
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Its a nice little unit, but what is their target market? Aside from geeks, who is going to buy one of these instead of the more standardized palm or wince device? Do they include a tool to move all your palm data to their format, or are they assuming that the people buying the Agenda won't be upgrading from an existing device?
Oh yeah, and are we taking bets on how long till somebody is running apache on it?
Is it running X?
:^/
Yes, it's running X. About a week and a half ago I began writing a simple game for the Agenda from scratch (you may have seen it mentioned on LinuxGames.com and the Linux Game Tome.
I'm practically done. It was incredibly easy. Developing it on the PC end wasn't hard (I obviously had some experience coding X apps), and making what I wrote run on the Agenda was a matter of using a cross-compiler.
Porting Atari800 has proven quite easy, as well. I had it cross compiled and up and running (albeit slowly) on the Agenda in less than a half an hour.
Of course, if you want to stick to the "standard look and feel" of applications already written for the Agenda, the tool to use is FLTK (Fast/Light Toolkit).
It's a C++ lib, though.
and vice-versa!
The screenshots I took of Atari800 running on the Agenda were done by running the program on the Agenda, and displaying it on the Agenda.
Then, I ran "xwd" on the workstation, with the Agenda set as the display. A crosshair cursor popped up on my Agenda's LCD and I tapped the screen. "Beep!" "Beep!" Suddenly a ".xwd" screenshot image file was stored on my workstation!
In other words:
Developing for this PDA is a f**king breeze!
I'm sorry, but until someone kicks the palmvx's ass without me having to drop over $300 again and has USB hotsynch support for my favorite linux flavor, I see no reason to entertain Yet Another PDA.
(I want you, palm m505 or visor edge. Try to meet me halfway. Please?)
Speak truth to power.
>the sync software only runs on Windows....
:P
You can connect to a linux box and use standard apps to sync your files. There isn't a point'n'drool version for linux, but rsync works just fine.
What's really fun is using nfs to mount a remote drive on the Agenda (or vice-versa) and exporting $DISPLAY one way or the other. Running Agenda apps displayed on a PC monitor (or vice-versa again) is useful as well as having a high geek quotient.
This little unit really is running a full version of linux and X, and if that's good enough for the internet it's good enough for a PDA
They claim that the IR will talk to any "OBEX-compliant" device. Is this simply at a hardware level, or will I actually be able to exchange appointments, addresses and memos with my wife's Palm?
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E_NOSIG
Was at Comdex in Chicago today and played with one for a few minutes. It looked like a PDA and did standard PDA things, so to me it's not much different than my Palm IIIx. I believe that the price is a bit high, however: at $199 or so it could be tempting (opening a terminal session on the PDA was *fun*) but at $299 I have doubts that they'll sell enough to pay the bills.
no, i'd just get the source my self. How else is my termite farm supposed to run apache?
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. --Sun-Tzu
Here is an FAQ from the Agenda Developer Zone. Among other things, they mention that the batteries last about a month, which is what I was really wondering. :-)
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Patrick Doyle
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
The Palm Pilot was the first widely successful PDA device (despite the merrits Newton fans like to point out).
Palm didn't spring up in the executive board room. Sure, Palm's own glossy pamphlets showed two business types setting up a meeting on a golf course. But that audience was slow in picking up the devices. Early on, there was strong support from third party developers, tinkerers, and hackers. Geeks.
The Palm device was the geek status symbol. If you were a tech-head, you HAD to get one. Everybody was doing cool, odd things with them. Oh. And while you had it - wow... it WAS usefull for notes and keeping appointments and other mundane activities. But have you seen the cool tricorder simulator? How about that RISK game that makes those meetings you're now remembering to attend actually bearable?
So Agenda might be targeted towards the geek crowd. But then... that might be the right place to start.
Palm's initial design was right. But it was third party developers that made the device fill in niche markets and become indispensible.
It will be interesting to see if Agenda has designed the right platform. And it will be interesting to see if developers (read: hackers) will fix anything Agenda is lacking.
Yeah, ditto! My pro is a little trooper. The screen needs recalibrating a lot now though, dispite reseating the connector many times. I suspect the capacitance or whatever effect generates the touch detection is going. I can't think of anything else I bought in 1997 I'm still using today, though :).
Palm IIIxe's are going for $250 cdn here. It's tempting up upgrade, but I really want one of those m505s..
..don't panic
So when they say "Join the Linux revolution" and "free software movement", does this mean that all of the software on the machine is GPL or something similar, so that unlike Palm OS, when I want to change a built-in app I can (provided I have skillz)? I'm not finding a lot on their site that indicates one way or the other.
IIRC, Palm has the source to all of the on-board applications (and a lot of the games) included as part of the development kit, so you can indeed change the application to do whatever you want. Some of them have, as I believe there are several very nice calendar replacements available based on the 'stock' code. You can even get the source code to the OS as a liscenced developer - is it free? No, but the code is available.
Palm has actively supported the free tools; They could be nicer about the USB specs, but I don't know enough to comment on that.
You might want to check out Palm Open Source for more goodies. There a nice little market doing custom development for palms, now, too.
NOBODY has come out and offered what I really want - linux on a PDA with a nice keyboard, a la the Jornada! GCC to go, with a real keyboard. I could toss the vaio then.
..don't panic
MultiUser Digital Assistant = MUDA?
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
There was that Qt-Embedded. Unfortunately, that adds C++ overhead, though.
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Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
(disclaimer: I am programming/use a Palm heavily these days; so I am biased) /etc/foo2.pdb". I want to be able to use a quick and dirty UI that does it for me.
I have used a Linux PDA before, saw a cheap knockoff unit at work a while back and I was completely unimpressed. A PDA is about being able to get to information quickly, not about being able to use an xterm (pterm?). I don't want to have to scribble in "cp ~mydir/foo.pdb
Also multitasking is totally useless in a PDA, just look at how slow they run when you have more than 1 app going. Why do you think the Palm is single threaded? (for all intensive purposes, I know you can hack this)
Summary: buy an m500 and enjoy an OS that doesn't get in your way, is designed for the system that it is on (from the ground up; not hacked to fit the system) and is simple / easy to use.
OTOH, if you have too much time/$$$ on your hands, buy a Linux PDA and be 'leet. Its your life.
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What, me worry?
There are Palms and Handsprings available in the $149 range, but they come with 2M of user accessible memory. That is just slightly more than a floppy disk, making the device as a whole slightly more usable than a calculator and an address book.
This has 8M of RAM, plus since its open source I expect you can use some of the Flash area for your own archived files.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
This device is in the middle ground between the expensive, colour CE devices like the Casio-thing/IPAQ and the low-spec Palm.
The fact that it competes directly with the PalmPilot on price, and offers a much higher spec, along with a readily customisable, open source OS sells it for me.
Colour is a feature i just don't need in a PDA, and the ability to program this device with familiar tools makes it very attractive to me.
The company i work for currently does CE development, but the high price of these devices limit the number of cutomers we can get. i.e. they like the software, but balk at the price of the hardware to run it.
If our (NZ) dollar wasn't so far down the toilet i'd have bought one already.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
oh my GOD have you ever tried to kill off the application you're currently running on WinCE? It's at least 5 clicks if not more. At some point, the ability to close an application with the little X button was removed from thePocketPC platform.
My boss bought me a Jornada 548. I used it for a week before I sent it back, even though I'd gotten it for free. I'm back to my Vx, and even without the color screen, it's still a FAR superior handheld.
It's ironic, because when I would reach for the cradle I would see the Jornada in place of the Palm -- and I would actually wince.
I'm really don't think there's any value inherent in a Linux PDA.
:) ).
Before I get flamed mercilessly, let me explain...
I started with the original Newton. then moved to Palm when the Pro came out. Then came the Palm V. After that, I got a Psion V w/ Epoc 32. Then I managed to get my hands on a prototype Newton tablet that Apple never released. Then, when I realized that wouldn't do what I needed, I built my own Linux-based PDA using the ucLinux SIMM hardware project and an LCD panel. Then I moved onto the iPaq
After going through all of these handheld devices, I still haven't found one that can be hacked to the functionality I desire, which is essentially a wide-area wireless browsing device. For all its virtues, Linux (at present) doesn't provide much beyond its coolness factor in the handheld arena. Functionally the Palm or the iPaq with their native operating systems are FAR more useful to the end user population.
When a decent UI (read: simple yet complete) UI and a stable business application suite are made available under Linux on a PDA, then they'll do better than they have. Palm compatibility for data transfer will be essential, as will battery life.
Until that time Linux on a PDA (IMO) will remain a mere curiosity for geeks to stare at (I personally am now over my staring phase...
-drin
I dunno - if you carried around a beowulf cluster in your pocket, you'd probably get more radiation sent into your gonads than a damn cel phone sends into your melon.
That would not be a Good Thing
- passion
I dunno how comfortable I feel using a handheld whose only claim to superiority is the fact you can kill errant processes. The implication being that if you have to use this often, the system isn't very stable.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Why, for the sake of having Linux on a handheld, would I or anyone else want to accept a product that is admittedly inferior?
--SC
You read fiction? I write it! Lemme know what you th
(BTW, you screwed up with your opening rant tag. Perhaps you need a copy of Sarcastic Faux HTML For Dummies. ;-)
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
People shouldn't get hung up on whether it uses Linux or not. Who cares apart from a few geeks? More important is whether it's any good as a PDA. If the software sucks, or the battery life measures in hours, or the screen is rotten then why would anyone in their right mind want to buy it?
From various Agenda info pages:
m l#system
t ml
"CD-ROM Software QuickSync for Linux and Windows PC" - http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/system.ht
"With our QuickSync Cradle and software, you can easily exchange information between your Agenda and your Windows or Linux PC." - http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/details.h
Too lazy to link...
OK, somebody has to say it: Imagine a B-Cluster of these!
__
at least the "online store" buy portion of the site ...
my big question is (judging only from previous /. story/comments), is has the handwriting recognition been improved? is it grafitti or some other construct?
i love my visor but since i bought it (about a year ago), i still haven't found a good checkbook application - i've tried all the commercial, shareware, open source free stuff out there and none of them fulfill my basic requirements (approximating my checkbook register in my since discarded Franklin planner):
the apps that came bundled with palm were fine 2 years ago, but i don't think they take advantage of the 8M-16M devices now - i don't want to have to access my home box or carry a planner/book around when i want to locate quickly the dates when i sent a check to the insurance company or when the power goes off i can easily verify that i paid the bill instead of settling for rolling blackout ...
i considered rolling my own for palm os, but just was discouraged at learning another API and i think even a gimped linux handheld os might offer a better platform than the palm - i still find it astonishing that i can play a decent game of bridge on my visor, but i can't find a decent checkbook .prc - i tried to live with the built-in expense app but it was awkward and clunky and had to tap thru 2-3 screens when entering stuff or looking it up ...
AZspot
One of the big reasons that people liked the Palms over the old Windows CE machines was that on a palm you don't have to do any resource management other than storage space. I really hope that this company did not fail to learn from MS mistakes. The only think worse than putting out a bad PDA is putting out a bad PDA first. Then you go and ruin the market for everyone.
"Freedom of speech has always been the abstract red-headed stepchild of the Constitution"
"Freedom of speech has always been the abstract red-headed stepchild of the Constitution"
-Suck
So when they say "Join the Linux revolution" and "free software movement", does this mean that all of the software on the machine is GPL or something similar, so that unlike Palm OS, when I want to change a built-in app I can (provided I have skillz)? I'm not finding a lot on their site that indicates one way or the other.
I do not have a signature
At $249 the price is right???? I honestly have to say that at about $99 the price would be right. This is not meant as a slam on the product, I've never seen it, but I think these things need to get around $100 to really fly. Until then it's nothing but a geek toy, a cool toy, yes, but a geek toy nonetheless.
The advantage of using Linux over Palm or CE on a PDA is that they don't have to sell as many Linux based units as they would if they went with Palm or CE as they don't have to pay licensing fees to Palm or MS.
On the downside they had to write all their own applications for the thing. No shortage of "gee wiz" toys for Palm and CE platforms. For now, WYSIWYG. That shouldn't take too long as long as the Linux community embraces it and writes stuff on it. As it's running Linux, they should pick up a good handful of sales just for that reason, hopefully keeping the "chicken or egg problem" to a minimum. (ie, how do you get users to buy a platform that has a minimal amount of apps?)
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Anyway, yes - they are delivering. It's based on the iPaq. Some snippets from the site include:
"In december 2000 LISA mLinux 0.6 was released. Our first Linux distribution for a handheld put Compaq's iPAQ under Linux."
I'm starting to wonder if aliens/the feds aren't busy kidnapping /.'ers and replacing them with drones.
/.'ers Linux users, AT ALL!)
Here we have a company that was willing to try and bring out a reasonably priced and decently performing handheld unit that runs Linux and runs it well. They have been nothing but open, friendly and helpful to those who are trying to develop for it.
Is it perfect? No. What version 1.0 of nearly anything is these days? Especially with a product that IS geared toward the geeks among us?(There are at least a couple left I'm sure...)
Since many of you who have posted to this topic obviously won't ever look for yourselves, believe me when I say that you CAN in fact use this device in as brain-dead a fashion as a Palm. Set an appointment, jot down a contact, etc WITHOUT having to type in command lines. But you can do so much more when the guts of the machine are readily available and familiar to you in the form of Linux. (Though I suspect that no longer are the majority of
So, finally it's ready for release and what do you guys do? Shit all over it. From people who are obviously feeling threatened (oh no! MY cool shiny thing isn't so cool anymore! Wait a minute, I'll just throw mud at everyone else and proclaim how great my toy REALLY is and then it will still be shiniest! Yeah, that's a plan!) by it to just plain ignoramuses who think it requires command lines to do anything.
What the hell is wrong with you people? Could one of the ex-/.'ers of old who might still be lurking please tell this straggler where you all have migrated to?
LEXX
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
I've had a developer model VR3 for a few months now, which I believe has little to no significant differences from the just-released consumer model.
I really like it. Probably the biggest benefit is that it runs Linux and X, giving it a huge amount of software that can easily be cross-compiled to run on the VR3.
The posts I've read so far seem to indicate that people are unsure of this... ALL OF THE VR3 SOFTWARE IS OPEN SOURCE, which gives all the typical advantages that I won't mention.
The developer unit was completely upgradeable, as in you can totally replace the entire OS, including the kernel, if you want to, and that seems to also be the case with the consumer unit.
The VR3 seems so much more versatile and open than the typical PDA's, and software can be written and ported to it very easily because of the familiar programs and libraries it uses.
"All someone has to do is port X to it and that will change"
.. er .. fingers...
Read the web page linked to before you open your
I Quote from the faq:
"What window manager does the VR3 use? Can I open multiple windows at the same time?
The VR3 uses a modified version of flwm. Windows are maximized by default, but the `status bar' application includes (among other things) a drop-down window listing to facilitate managing multiple windows."
There's this Giant led sign with an ir port at the casino in my city. A BIG sign. It has blinky lights, and beckons to me. It says 'hiro, you need this pda. Hack me, hiro. And then buy some disposable cell phones and crank call washington'
[haven't you tried FunWithPerl?]
It would be interesting to allow multiuser access to this kind of device. I'm not sure at what level the ir communication is at, but it is certainly possible, and would be neat.
Too many people begrudge neat for it's own sake. I think that it's by playing with things that are neat, which we are passionate about, that we make the truley innovate advances.
I think that the ability to code for these things yourself is fantastic. Are there many tech companies who write client-oriented software for these things? Who do 'solutions?'
[haven't you tried FunWithPerl?]