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William Gibson On Japan
An Anonymous Coward writes: "There's an interesting rant by William Gibson on his fascination with American futurist conception of Japanese culture over at The Observer. Also of note is one readers take on it." This is a little odd, not usual slashdot fare. But I thought it was interesting reading, so maybe you will too.
Major flaw in Gibson's reasoning: Japan actually seems markedly BEHIND Europe and the US in adopting the PC as a staple in every household, in embracing the Internet as a place for business, etc. How much commercial software development comes out of Japan? Not that there's not great programming talent there, as many a well-coded emulator can testify to, but it seems to me a major element of Gibson's writing relates to computers and the internet, not electronic dating gadgets and videogame consoles. There's a prioritzing going on that seems backwards in espousing that mobile phones and tamagotchi count for more . . .
I've barely been back in Britain for two days after visiting Tokyo and Yokohama, and I find this - cool! Though I now live in Edinburgh, I was born and brought up in London and visit often so the comparison is interesting.
The "Mobile Girls". In this, I don't actually think Japan is any different from the UK, or Germany or Sweden. Here in Europe practically everyone between 11 and 40 has a mobile phone (and lots of other people too), and the girls can text like lightening here too. My little sisters have a mobile and they can text faster than I can. The amazing thing about the Japanese girls is that they can do it in Kanji! A friend I met there demonstrated: you enter what you want to say in a phonemic form, then the 'phone offers you several ways to say the same thing in Kanji script. That, combined with the larger screens of the iMode phones, means it's convenient to receive much longer messages.
Oh, and DoCoMo phones can receive email as conveniently as a text message. I wish I had that.
Technology adoption. In Tokyo, I got the net from an Ethernet cable in my hotel room. Damn fast too. I wish I'd had the same in Yokohama.
Conformism. I don't think it's as bad as people say. Certainly the streets of Tokyo don't look like the humourless regiments people seem to imagine, just people holding hands, laughing and enjoying themselves at the weekend in the glorious weather under the cherry blossom. I went to a Tokyo goth club and it was a fabulous experience - you can see pictures at
www.cluefactory.org.uk/paul/photos/tokyo/eve/
- no conformism there!
I've never been that far away before - Tokyo was a real eye-opener, and while there were many unusual things (Pocari Sweat is called that because it's an isotonic sports drink), the Japanese are not the aliens people seem to think. And don't worry about the politeness rules too much, they're used to gaijin getting it wrong, just don't blow your nose in public...
--
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that Stephenson has said the two books aren't really related; he just put the YT/Miss. Matheson thing in as an easter egg.
--Phil (Owner of a signed copy of Cryptonomicon. (Hi, Jay))
355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation!
The French share
Alas the sense of cleanliness is rather shared with the Swiss (Paris toilets? Yuck!).
To say that one culture is better than another at some such thing seems to an American to be somehow racist (especially to an Asian-American). But in Japan, thinking up differences between Japanese and Americans is practically a national sport.
The original poster is 100% correct on every point. Japanese businesses spend very little time and resources developing "new" things. They believe all our trade publications, that gush about how X technology is going to change the world, to be gospel truth. Every new development in the US sends them into a panic, because what they fear more than anything else is to be left in the US's technological dust.
Japanese-style R&D instead focuses on these new American developments, and how Japanese businesses can implement them quickly so as to avoid getting "cut out of the loop" as it were.
Because of this, newer technologies like XML, Java, Linux, PHP, and the ubiquitous Keitai Denwa (the portable data phones Gibson speaks of) are all very mainstream here.
I tell my Japanese coworkers that Java and Linux aren't terribly popular in the US, and they don't believe me.
(With regard to my "farm", I have a 4-year degree in Japanese, I have been married to a Japanese national for 6 years, I work in a Japanese software company (that makes games written in PHP for said phones), and I'm posting from the city of Hakata.)
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs,
...but it's safe to carry loads of cash.
no Birth control (until last year)
But abortions were cheap and plentiful...
and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.
Also no law against denying employment/promotion to white guys like me. Actually, there is almost no form of institutionalized artificial equality. Even so, I like the fact that the government doesn't regulate every aspect of corporate life here. It just means you have to try harder is all.
You forgot to mention that in Japan there are no surveillance cameras, no drug tests, and no background checks. Civil servants and customer service representatives are polite, and most of all competent. Even the police. That's a future I could go for.
And as for the "pressure to conform"... Who applies that pressure? The government? The army? Or is it completely voluntary?
I understand how it could be difficult for an American to understand why anyone would ever conform, believe in a religion, obey the law, or respect other people unless they were somehow forced or coerced to, but that is because America's social contract has ruptured and everyone mistrusts everything and everyone else. Not because the Japanese are somehow gullible mindless automatons.
There is no more pressure to conform here than anywhere else. All that's different it that the Japanese are not nearly as cynical about each other and their social institutions. Everyone benefits from a society that runs smoothly and where everyone does what is expected of them.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
AI seems a little reckless when your talking about ripsaw-wielding, flame-throwing robots, many of which can move a lot faster than you can run...
I'm sure injuries would be rare, considering how smart the builders are. But geeks also tend to be absent minded, and mistakes could be lethal.
"Hey is this thing on?" BZZZZZ CHOP-CHOP-CHOP FWOOOOSH (sizzle-sizzle) "Medic!"
all Americans shower every day
You've never been to a Grateful Dead show have you? Hell, I've been know to skip a day now and then (but it's always at least 5 times a week).
I hear they used to have to practically force James Dean into the shower. :)
That is overstated at the least. Listen, the japanese value conformance of the individual to the group's benefit, sure. Americans typically value individuality above the group's welfare. I just made two huge generalizations that are true.
However, there are plenty examples of japanese youths growing out of the shadows of their parents post-war generation that realize that with the current economic problems japan has they will not work for one company and conform to it their whole lives.
Do I want to turn Japanese, no. I like anime and sushi and would like to one day visit Japan on a vacation but I grew in an individaulistic society and that is where I will stay. To be interested in another culture does not necessarily mean that you have to reject your own. I have a problem with that.
Sometimes I see the otaku or the cafe beatnik dark clad eurotrash wannabe bashing america and praising whatever culture they tend to prefer. It is as if to recognize problems in ones own culture you had to reject it in the same breath and then choose another one. The culture I have grown up in is not anywhere near perfect but it is my own to live with or help to change if the need is there. Then I have to laugh because as many people have pointed there are difficulties with every culture and set of ideals.
Becoming Japanese, no. Wanting to look out and see the world through another culture's eyes to understand the people? Yeah, I can do that.
ACK
Not to start a flame war but I like Neal Stephenson and even Bruce Sterling much better than Gibson. They have a much less negative view of the future and often are more post-cyberpunk in their writings. I think the Diamond Age mixed with Distraction and touches of Snow Crash and Idoru would overall be a pretty realistic description of our near future. Maybe I just tend to be optimisitc and thus like those books better. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I would not argue that their is any reason for Brits to have the 'big dumb my big brother can beat up your big brother' behavior of us Americans. Am just saying we do have that behavior both for better and worst. Hell Red Dwarf and Junk Yard Wars are two of my favorite shows. Both of which I believe are British. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I've watched it quite often and it is to my mind very 'cute'. The robots look much more amatuer in general and more like tv images of robots than down and dirty fighting machine like you see in the American versions. Not that all of them are that way, just a great many more. The show in general just has an amussing feel to it. If it helps any I think the American version is for pansies. They should keep the crowd back so they could let loose with some really awesome weapons.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Not at all. The Japanese do invent things but seldom are their inventions big and crazy in the American way. Besides since we are talking about sterotypes used by Gibson in his books it is appropiate to depict things in the same way. I'd not honestly suggest that nobody in Japan invents things or that nobody in America refines things. It's just a description of what each culture seems to do best. I've yet to see any culture as good at refining technology as Japan or one as good at thinking up big stupid shit as America. Of course America has raw numbers on it's side.. it's a freakin big place.. can't honestly expect a country the size of one of our states to out produce our entire country. I do think a lot of European countries and Japan are better about early adoption of technology. They don't usually invent it first but they are the first to actually put it to good use. In America good ideas are like everything else -- we throw it away and keep using up natural resources faster than is really wise. If it can't make someone money without upsetting the power balance then we don't use it. :P
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I don't really consider them to be robots but I'm sure they'd quickly get AI built-in if the damn freakin network tv would let us. Because of stupid saftey rules and such AI is off limit. I really want to see that changed but for now those suits have all the robots braindead.
:)
Some of it is that AI would raise the bar needed to enter but they COULD have sepperate competition classes..
Another thing about America is that Suits have way to much power. We should challenge those lawyers with the spinning wheel of death and a good flamethrower and see what happens. Something of the nature of celebrity death matches but pitting real lawyers against real robots?
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Heavy Weather and Islands in the Net are pretty good Sterling works but honestly his all out best ever is Distraction. The first reading can be hard to grasp fully but it's in depth look at American culture and genetic/neural engineering is very advanced. The entire trust network of nomad tribes that live off waste products is fantastic (why we don't do it I'm not quite sure) and connecting it to the dignified workings of science is just the perfect touch.
Stephenson is much more optimistic in general and his books are heavily researched. They read like class lecture notes with wonderful stories woven in. Crytonomical is almost a textbook. It even has working programs in it! Snow Crash I think is situated a little ahead of The Diamond Age on the time line but you can easily see how one story leads to the other. Stephenson books can often be a lot to handle if you aren't very familiar with the topics being discussed. You literally get a dose of facts and theories that are used as the backdrop for the stories and you have to digest all that before the story can make sense. It's sort of like Star Wars.. every time you watch(read) it again you uncover new layers.
Gibson is very dark. His books have a sort of Blade Runner quality to them and seem very chaotic and afraid of technology. Given the fact that he admits not to be a 'geek' I think it unsurprising that he has something of a fear of technology which he works into his stories. For the masses Gibson probably makes more sense than Sterling or Stephenson as I think the average person probably fears technology on some level. Gibson books are good stories but they seem much more shallow and less educational.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I tried to get some locals interested in a cable access battle bot show by people who go to school here etc. Wanted it to have no rules as long as both competitiors stayed in the ring until one is dead. Nobody seemed to feel like making the effort. *shrugs* Dunno.. I thought it'd be a fun project.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
That's what I meant. Ahead == before. I always assumed Miss Matheson was YT. The stories aren't really sequels or anything but you can see how the technology and cultures continue along the same lines to show the progression.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I think the Japanese and American cultures are locked in a twisted symbiotic relationship. The Japanese are masters of perfecting technology and Americans are masters of thinking of insane new things that break the mode. Other cultures tend to be someplace in the middle.
:)
An exmaple.. Look at out robots.. America has Battle Bots.. an over pumped wrestling federation type of robot fighting game with big bad to the point robots.. the British have Robot Wars (I think that is the name) which is a lot like Battle Bots but the robots tend to be more goofy and cute and look less like something designed to beat your neighbor up. Their show in general lacks the over the top behavior of the American counterpart. The Japanese take robots and slap them into cute little bodies and give them some basic AI abilities and make a forture off it all.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Also, the Asians in Vancouver are predominantly Chinese. Chinese culture is closer to American or Canadian or almost any other Western culture than it is to Japanese culture. (I lived in China for a year, too.) The Japanese are really mindblowingly different, in terms of their culture. And I expect that they will always remain that way; even as they import Western culture wholesale, they change it and make it their own. Being here is like viewing Western culture through a fun-house mirror. I recognise things, but I don't.
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Those two things are inextricably linked: techno idolatry ("toys") are a distraction, a way for people to soothe themselves, in the same way that a pacifier/dummy soothes a baby, by changing the focus of its attention. The more constrained a society is - whether it's Japan or the puritan-rooted U.S. - the more people turn to distractions, since their culture can't provide sufficient nurture for their spirits.
I wonder if Gibson is deriving some of his inspiration not from Japan, but from where he lives in Vancouver. Vancouver a very large and successfull oriental population. Wander around the malls and you see Mobile Girls, at home here as if they were in Japan.
In fact, Michael means the article posted by analytic at 4/4/01 7:47:21 PM entitled "William Gibson and the London-Tokyo connection".
To avoid /.ing this site, I've included the meat of analytic's response below:
Like Gibson, I always did feel that one of the most important sentiments that fuels British breakbeat is the sort of broadly orientalist subtext of British music in the twentieth century; not orientalist in the literal sense that it is directed specifically towards Asian culture, but rather in the sense that the British seem to have a hightened sensitivity towards and appreciation for the idea of the foreign. This foreign-ness, I think, ultimately reveals itself to the British as something new, valuable, and thus worthy of appropriation.
This disposition can be seen in Drum and Bass, which for so long aligned itself with American musical forms like jazz and hiphop, as well as with dub. Most recently, this tendency has become evident in UK Garage, which relies so heavily on the influence of US hiphop,R+B and Jamaican dancehall reggae. Strangely, I think, the xenophiliac impulse that drives so much British music to borrow from and expand upon American, West Indian, and Asian musics, in many cases manifests itself in American breakbeat audiences as a kind of anglophilia, an appreciation for the non-american aspects of breakbeat music.
When I moderate, I only use "-1, Overrated". That way, I never get meta-moderated!
This is not only not true, but also _predominantly_ false. Intel fabs its own wafers, so do AMD and others. TSM fabs wafers for its subsidiaries and others. And IBM fabs wafers for Motorala, AMD, Transmeta, etc. as well as for its own use. Most wafer fab capacity is _not_ in Japan. Malaysia alone probably has more (Intel, AMD, etc.).
And I disagree with you. Most big fabs grow their own silicon ingots, AFAIK. That's the easy part. Do you have any statistics on worldwide Si-ingot production?
Okay, maybe I just think too much, but here's an observation:
Japan- Had an island-wide feudal system of samurai.
England- Had an island-wide feudal system of knights.
Japan- Figurehead monarch, parliamentary gov't.
England- Figurehead monarch, parliamentary gov't.
Japan- Fondness for highly-structured tea ceremonies.
England- Fondness for highly-structured tea ceremonies.
Japan- Historically adversarily continental neighbors, from which the much of their culture is drawn.
England- Ditto.
Japan- Displaced native population. (The Ainu)
England- Displaced native population. (The Celts)
Japan- Passion for high-maintenance gardens.
England- Yup.
Japan- Militaristic (invasions of Korea and China come to mind).
England- Militaristic (invasions of France come to mind).
I know there were a few more, but I can't remember them at the moment.
Yes, perhaps I'm imposing similitudes where none exist, but what can ya do?
The Pet Shop Boys song you're quoting is, if anything, about economic disparity and social classes in England. The line is, "In a West End town, a dead end world / The East End boys and West End girls..."
Also, Shogun, while a great read and written by someone who really loved Japanese culture, was still written by... an Englishman. It's not exactly a reference work on Japanese culture.
The Japanese learn English fairly early. Americans rarely learn Japanese.
Well, you must live in another country than me then. Because most of the schools in Washington, Oregon, and California seem to have Japanese classes, as do the colleges and university.
And, since my son's taking Japanese and my brother taught German in Japan, I kind of think I might know what I'm talking about, Gaijin.
Will in Seattle
The west coast as a LOT more asian influence than the east, and that probably accounts for the different language course offerings.
Most of the population of the US lives West of the Mississippi. About 30 per cent of the entire US lives in California, Oregon, and Washington. So when I say rarely can one find a school that doesn't offer Japanese or another Asian language, I am talking about the parts of the US which are growing. The rest of the areas which are growing are learning Spanish.
Hence, Japanese is a fact of life, and a Japanese language game would have a wider market than you imagine and the humor is more translatable than those from the ossifying east may think.
We (as the Census will tell you) are the future. Ignore us at your own risk.
Will in Seattle
Good point. From my friends who've been there I have to agree.
But an interesting opposing point is what do the Japanese think of us?
Everyone rides in huge convertables in the middle of the Nevada desert, like in Fear and Lothing in Las Vegas? Hanging around coffee shops all day long like in the TV show Friends? Living in large lots in suburbia?
I'm sure that they have somesort of counter-point to your views.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
This type of diatribe seems to come from people who have been in love with Japan for years, then go there and see exactly what they were looking for without noting anything that would interfere with their schoolgirl crush on the country.
Yes, this is the country in which every girl has to have a portable phone, the newest CD single by a shitty boy band (ok, so that's not different), and the newest fashion trend the moment that they are announced in the magazines...
But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs, no Birth control (until last year) and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.
Granted their fad driven economy is full of high tech gadgetry the likes of which would make any japanophilic geek drool, but the shortsightedness of the culture as a whole scares me... Ever seen how much trash is piled in the woods by their mountain expressways? Or stacks of ten year old cars that were crushed for being too old... (A friend of mine had a 1990 Honda CRX crushed because the road tax would have been too much. He had to pay $200 to get them to take it and it had 60K on the odometer). It seems like the technological climate in Japan is due mostly to high pressure advertising, high pressure to conform, and a lack of visible available alternatives.
Different, yes,
But THE future? I hope not.
+++ ATH0 +++
But from what I've been able to gather, specifically from Karel van Wolferen, it might be a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.
The essence of Japanese society is conformance. There are a great many constraints on individuals such as only being hired straight out of school. If you lose your job, you likely will not get anything anywhere near as good. Corporatism run wild.
Various "hobbies" are left as necessary outlets for individuality. And these become very interesting indeed. This attracts Gibson, but I look to the causes.
I think Gibson is over-romanticizing what goes on in Japan. Yes, like many Asian cultures, they are very receptive to fads influenced by the "latest thing" and they are something that is very rare in the West nowadays: technophilic.
I suspect, however, that, in their 140-year leap from virtual feudalism to modernity, not all has progressed at the same rate, and the technological effects on society are playing out in ways that have already shaped Western society.
It's only been in the past 30 years that Japan has been a truly affluent society. So the concerns of a society that has grown comfortable with widespread wealth are just beginning--there's a feeling, reinforced by the collapse of the Bubble Economy, that without hard work to maintain it, prosperity could vanish as quickly as it arrived. So the Western concerns with social equality, environmental protection, the extremely marginal dangers of new technology haven't set in yet.
In short, there's still a lot of the 1950's-era Europe and America in Japan. The benefits of technology are still much clearer than their downsides, and a workaholic, traditional culture still lingers. If, in the 50's or even the 20's, America had the same level of technology the Japanese do today there would undoubtedly be Mobil Girls, robot bars, and the like.
But don't forget the downside to this progress: Japan is not a tranquil, natural place for reflection that NPR and yuppie magazines sell to Americans: it is a chaotic place where almost all buildable land has been built upon and parks are sadly rare but extremely welcome escapes from the unrelieved concrete and cacophony of the city. Women have a distinctly second-class place: female CEO's aren't a rarity, they just don't happen. Cutting off land from business development is similarly rare, and the salaryman still comes to work at 7 or 8 and leaves at 10 to drink with the boss until 1 and expects to do this for one company his entire life.
So yes, consumer technology is a few minutes into the future, but Japanese society isn't necessarily "ahead", if such a concept even applies. But Western society would be better off for examining the Japanese to see what we've lost: the confidence that technology can still improve your life and is sometimes worth the cost.
I think it's the other way around: there's a passage in Diamond Age that implies that Nell's teacher at the Victorian school (Miss Matheson) is none other than YT from Snow Crash (see page 320-21 of the Diamond Age paperback).
k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
Yakuza and Sony and DoCoMo and Anime. What a strange future...
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Most technological companies are aware that the PC as a phenomenae will dissapear in some decades, being replaced by specialized, closed, devices.
Do not believe the hype. This idea is being fed to you by companies who bought the idea just so they could unload it on Wall Street. Face it: when people want a Universal Turing Machine (computers are luxury devices, this has nothing to do with need), they want the whole package. They don't want a crippled product that's "good enough". Why is Dell more profitable than eMachines? Why aren't WebTVs filling the homes of the computer illiterate?
That's not to say that specialized devices won't fill the market, but they need to have a more clearly defined function, one that isn't better served by a computer. And they're not going to replace anything, just add to it.
--
Do I want to turn Japanese, no.
Are you sure?
The song, incidently, has nothing to do with Anime.
--
It in no way implies that she's YT; that's like saying that in 80 years, if you say 'Where do you want to go today,' you must be Bill Gates. Granted, there's not a whole lot to disprove the concept. But the only implication was that Miss Matheson was a thrasher. Not even a Kourier, just a trasher.
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...the salaryman still comes to work at 7 or 8 and leaves at 10 to drink with the boss until 1 and expects to do this for one company his entire life. You grasp something a lot of people here are missing. I am not sure if it is so much of a downside as you imply though. The 'overworked' employee aspect of this may well be a very American point of view. I think it sucks but we should not be so quick to judge.Japanese companies and the government really plan for the long haul. It is not uncommon for a Japanese business plan to be highly detailed and projected out to 120 years. They plan to hire several generations of employees and often from the same families. This is culturaly ingrained since feudal times. So, unlike in the US, a person will do everything to keep their job, express loyalty to their company, focus their lives around the people in their company. Sort of an extended family with a historical job security plan. Bizarre, oppresive and uninspiring? Mobil Girls and group think? One step closer to borg? It may seem like that to an individualistic society like ours. I think in all the chaos of their techno revolution this facet will bring them through and Gibson may very well be on the mark. The long term planning, however wierdly distorted by technology pulling at it from every conceivable direction, will prevail and even out the swing in direction of Japan as a society. Maybe for them being a little 'behind' will hurl them 'ahead'. Their culture will probably adapt to it better perhaps even pervadeing the techno/cultural trends globally.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
Japan and GB are similar because they were both strong island nations.
Both cultures developed a "we are the best" culture because they were relatively immune to being conquered, and didn't have external ideas forced upon them.
With no frontier, both produced a culture of politeness, and a system that tolerated eccentrics (but not radicals.)
Correction. The Japanese learn English words very early. Because the classes are a required part of the cirriculum. But they don't learn much English grammar, and are almost never taught proper pronounciation. The "All your base are belong to us" thing is a perfect example of what happens when the translator is not a native speaker of the destination language. So-called "Japlish" (crazy mixed-up uses of English words) is another example of what this causes.
Because until recently, there weren't many classes offered, because there wasn't much interest compared to the much easier (for English speakers) big-four European languages (FIGS). And most of those that are offered are not much better than the English taught to Japanese, nor do they teach reading that would even qualify as a first-grade level (by not teaching any kanji, and often not even kana).
Now that anime is getting more popular, there is a reason to learn. You're simply not going to learn a language unless you have a lot of reading/listening material that doesn't put you to sleep. I took two semesters of Spanish in college (two semesters any language being required to graduate), and barely learned anything, despite being in central Texas where it's the second language. (Korean seems to be in third place.) Once I realized the only benefit I could get from learning Spanish was better TV news reports on NASA (I am not making this up), I gave up trying to learn any more.
At least when I finally made the decision to learn Japanese, all that poor Spanish became useful (the pronouncation is similar, and both have heavily conjugated verbs). Anyone who makes an effort to read lots of manga and watch lots of subtitled anime can pick up a decent command of the language in a year, and be reading like a (slow) fifth-grader after three or four years.
Which goes to show that most school language classes are worthless unless you want to learn, and unnecessary if you make an effort to learn. But you still spend a lot of money on books either way. ^_^
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
This type of diatribe seems to come from people who have been in love with Japan for years, then go there and see exactly what they were looking for without noting anything that would interfere with their schoolgirl crush on the country.
It's not really a diatribe then.
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thing is a good example; the title "Cowboy Bebop" is a more recent example.
"Cowboy Bebop" is not a translation, thats the actual name of the show, like "Dai Katana" was the name of a game here.
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I once read that it was still being determined if the quirky dialogues in the Zelda games were due to bad translation or Dan Olsen's (the guy who translates Japanese games for Nintendo) sense of humor.
The Japanese learn English fairly early. Americans rarely learn Japanese. Until better translations can occur, the best parody of the current state of the Japan-US union will be Mojo-Dojo from The Powerpuff Girls. In fact, the whole show parodies just about every Japanese animation convention imaginable.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
As a historical reference point which may or may not correlate with the trajectory in Gibson's historical conjecture, see the diary of a visit in 1923 by the NY-based American junior partner to an expatriot Japanese nobleman. The account includes dinner with song and geisha, climbing Fuji, and getting caught in the Tokyo earthquake. (Their import-export business later failed in the depression. The Japanese partner was running a Japan-America Friendship outfit in LA at the time of Pearl Harbor.)
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs, no Birth control (until last year) and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.
I don't contradict you on your stand regarding Japanese attitudes towards women, but I don't understand your last point. I don't see how the two contradict each other. Care to expand on your statement?
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Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
[First of all, I want to say that if you have a userid, you should have used it, because your post was the most reasoned and insightful response I've seen in a long time. Made for a nice change from the flames I often get from others.]
A high index of automobiles per capita is not a sign of technological advance, but exactly the opposite.
One of the few uncivilized things I (a foreigner) have found in America is the total dependence on cars, which is directly linked to pathetically uneffective mass transit systems.
You're right, but I think that's more of a social difference than a technological one.
Your post (plus some more thought) has changed my position a bit. I started by accusing William Gibson of oversimplifying things when he said Japan is ahead of the rest of the world; I said Japan is not ahead in all ways. Now, I realize that that was also an oversimplification.
The actual level of technology may be higher in Japan. After all, tons of innovation happens there (sure, you may say that it happens in the U.S. first and Japan just adopts it, but I don't care what you say, tons of innovation happens in Japan, too). However, the adoption of that technology is following a completely different pattern than in North America. I'm no longer sure if it's more, or less advanced.
Why does Gibson think it's more advanced in Japan? Maybe it's a grass-is-greener thing.
And to all those who corrected me on the computer chip gaffe, thanks for not flaming. I would have realized my mistake myself if I'd thought about it, but I was rushed. It's an unfortunate thing that on Slashdot, if you don't post quickly, you don't get read. :-(
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Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
First, some credentials. I am of Japanese descent, and although I make my home in Canada, most of my family is still in Japan, and I've visited Japan at least a half dozen times.
Gibson makes the sweeping generalization that Japan is "several clicks down the time line" (and I'm sure he'll be first to admit that it's a simplified generalization), but I'd like to point out that there are some places where technology has made less inroads than in North America, at least for the common consumer.
Automobiles, for instance. You may scoff at that; after all, it was the Japanese car makers that gave American manufacturers a swift kick in the pants a few decades ago by exporting higher quality products for much less cost. But the per capita use of cars in Japan is far less than here in America. Here, it would be tough to imagine a 5-member family without a car. But it would be no surprise in suburbs of Tokyo or Osaka.
Now, admittedly, that's primarily because of the mind-bogglingly efficient train systems that are the envy of the world. But it goes to show that adoption of technology is not uniformly advanced in Japan.
Secondly, there is the technology that concerns us Slashdotters most: the personal computer. Adoption of the PC, E-mail, WWW, etc, were far behind in Japan. Game consoles have been common, but general purpose PCs have seen far slower acceptance. This might also seem bizarre, when the majority of the chips in our computers come from Japan (or Japanese companies). I think it has to do with language and culture.
In common households, you are most likely to see an ordinary refrigerator, a gas stove, two or three separate water heaters (one for the sink and one for the bathtub), a TV, radio, and maybe a game console if there's a young boy in the house. And oh, yes; one of those (in)famous fuzzy logic washing machines.
For regular folk, I don't think there's all that much difference between Japan and North America, technologically speaking. (Although I have to admit, those people who like gadgets really like their gadgets!)
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Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
Of course Stephenson and Sterling could hardly be post-cyberpunk without Gibson, could they?
TV say Donuts are high in fat
Kazoo
Found a hobo in my room
It's Pricess Leia
The yodel of life
Give me my sweater back
Or I will play the guitar
Hyakugojyuuichi!
The japanese adaptability is rooted in the obeyance of an old feudal system, which is certainly fraying a lot. Even as the Japanese have held a fascination and distrust of outsiders since Commodore Perry parked his ships off the entrance to Tokyo Bay and extending the velvet gloved fist of friendship and commerce to the Tokugawa shogun.
One thing about ordered societies, they don't last because in some way, they saddle someone with the cost. Even in these modern romanticized business-samurai times.
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Secondly, the article barely mentions America (other than a brief post-World War II period). It's about London and, secondarily, Vancouver. So all the comments about America's fascination with Japan, while interesting, show little relation to the actual article.
Gibson writes an article talking about the mutual fascination between the British and the Japanese. The American /. editors/readers then come along and assume he was talking about America instead?
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Private Essayist
as in: "I think the Japanese and American cultures are locked in a twisted symbiotic relationship. The Japanese are masters of perfecting technology and Americans are masters of thinking of insane new things that break the mode. Other cultures tend to be someplace in the middle" In other words, the Japanese can't invent anything (they just copy and refine, oh yes) while those crazee yanks are just the most original shit-kicking free-thinking nation in the whole world (that'd be the same Whole World as the WWF, and World Series Baseball). All other cultures are just points on the line between these two extremes? Have you ever travelled outside your own farm, boy?
I am not sure there is too much to say in response to this, but I did find the article a great read.
I have long been a fan of Gibson and cyberpunk and even ran a cpunk MUD. In order to do the latter I learned what I could about Japanese culture, even reading stuff like Shogun which is set at the time England first stumbled across the island gem.
What I learned makes me agree with what Gibson says. The Japanese have an extrodinary ability to use another cultures advances as a template to make something really great (ie the car). They haven't in the past done much for the innovation side, but they are able to run with fresh ideas and churn out some neat stuff.
I think that Japan is a better setting than many Western cultures because as a westener I feel that was have a lot of angst as well as fear toward technology. A whole world of knowledge opened up to us with the advent of the public accessible web and right off the bat there are stampedes to regulate it. But, the Japanese are unfraid of what lies ahead and just keep running forward.
The Japanese have also had some really cool toys for awhile that we have only recently seen, for instance, the Izone camera from Polaroid. About 10 years ago the Japanese had a similar camera and over the years have made nearly credit card sized versions.
I do think that something was left out of the article, and that is that Gibson's first major novel, Neuromancer was published in 1984. This was the beginning of a Japanese fascination (though not always good) in America. Remember songs like "Eastern boys and Western girls" and "I'm turning Japanese" and "Kung-fu Fighting"? The cyberpunk genre came out of the 80's an embodies much about that time, including how influenctial Japan was on out society at the time.
So why Japan? Because while we stand around quibbling about if the future is safe for our children or not, they will doing some fantasic things that will bring us into a cyber era.
"Are these questions testing whether I'm a replicant or a lesbian, Mr. Deckard?" -Rachael Tyrell
I agree that Japan has it's issues. They are horrible about respecting endangerd species, they are definately only now coming up to speed on some societal issues.
But, even with all that being true, I think that missed the point. Why is Japan perfect for the cyberpunk genre? Because it is the technology and the fashion that we see and hear about. Because it is romantized for those things. Now, as a culture to model ours after, sure it falls short.
Just like we romantize knights in shining armor and the chilvary of the medieval era without taking a good look at historical documention about the role of farmers under fuedal lords, and the visciousness of the battles, and the unsanitary way they lived. But it makes for great stories!
Same with Japan and the cyberpunk genre, it may not be all it's cracked up to be, but it sure makes a great story!
"Are these questions testing whether I'm a replicant or a lesbian, Mr. Deckard?" -Rachael Tyrell
I should point out that the West has had a love affair with Japanese art and culture predating our identification of the Japanese with all things futuristic and technological. The beat poets were highly interested in Zen bhuddism as were a lot of minimal artists at the 60's.
Minimal Japanese art was a big influence of the style of French art, like art nouveau and expressionism. Perhaps this is because the avante garde of Western culture (be it culturally obsessed nerds like Gibson, or bohemian artists) constantly look for a way to overthrow the Victorian-era Christian systems of values and behaviour that are prevalent in the west.
Hence, we see them as futuristic because everything that has been modern about our culture for the past century has often been influenced by Japan. And everything modern about their culture has been influenced by us.