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Panel Recommends Mars Samples Be Quarantined
selectspec writes: "The NYTimes is reporting that a panel of scientists has recommended that NASA treat samples returned from Mars from future missions be quarantined as if they contained deadly viruses until proven otherwise. ABC news also has the scoop, as does space.com. Of course many scientists agree this is pure politics given that over a ton of Martian material enters our atmosphere every year, spit up from meteor impacts on Mars. In the unlikely event that life currently existed on Mars in the past million or so years, such debris would have likely transported microbial organizisms here. Many forms of microbial life would be able to survive such a journey."
Deadly bacteria usually can't co-exist, so the residents of Washington D.C. have an automatic advantage.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
How can Martian solid materials leave the planet and arrive to Earth?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Sure, it might resist boiling or iodine, but are you really trying to tell me that TSE's can resist a few minutes in a high-temperature incinerator?
Go you big red fire engine!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
First I would note you that there is a big difference between our common and relatively correct understanding of what a scientist should be and what is transpers from our /. commentator. I also do my bit of Science, truly not in the US, and I know how some science is made. It is made exactly the way you consider as wrong. Yes, scientists give a theory as given and go up making policy recommendations. Because some dodos in the Parliaments, US Congress included, cannot distinguish kilos from pounds and planets from apples. So it is better to talk about flying saucers and "humanoid faces", so one gets something from the very meager budget on Science.
Recently I got the hand on documents about how people tried to fight back some parliament members, in a very well known developped country, from cutting a science project. Sincerly I was horrorized by the citations. Scientists trying to become idiots, burocrats trying to become intelligent...
On what concerns mars dust. It it flies out and falls on Earth. But the cause is not impacts. The major cause are the dynamics of Mars sandstorms. They are huge, gigantic and some of that dust does manage to reach escape velocity. However some still question its impact on Earth, specially when considering the Solar wind and some other stuff.
Btw soon there should be one such storm... Usually they happen when Earth is quite near to Mars.
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Episode 324 - Is Mars alive? YES!
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Episode 456 - Mars IS DEATH!
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Episode 789 - Maybe Mars HAD life...
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Episode 1034 - No there are no chances for life in Mars...
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Episode 1345 - There could be life in Mars...
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Episode 2345 - Aliens! Saucers! BigMacs in Mars!
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Episode 3456 - Mars was/is and will be death
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Episode 4569 - Remake of episode 789...
This IS Mars. People this is not a joke. That how Mars has been seen for the last 400 years, since people started to seriously speculate about life in other planets. And nothing in the last scientific achievements has given a determined and final evidence that Mars is either dead or alive. Personally I tend mostly to the fact that this planet is still damn alive, even after all those shake-ups one may detect on its geology.There is evidence that certain formations could have been "build" by ancient organisms. One of them is exactly the ill-famous "Face" and the new fresh pictures even add some support to it. Besides there is a weird system of "black strikes/spots/marks" all over Mars, which strongly suggest that some organisms may still be playing a major role in Mars.
Some of you may counter with the fact that Viking didn't show any signs of organics. People, I specially studied some memories of persons who worked at that project and I have enough evidence of two facts:
the author of one of the biologic tests counsciously undermined the project, and tried to destroy some work made by some other people. He also tried in 1967 to revoke the demand for spacecraft sterilization;
the ill-famous Gas spectrometer experiment is questionable because the instrument was not only flawed in design but also the produced results cannot fit even the most pessimistic calculations.Besides the story of its development shows tons of questions
Besides of this. I cannot find, till now, the wholly promised results on Carbon presence from the rocks tested under Sojourner's mission. Till now, the promise "results will be published after calibration" still hang in the remains of the old Pathfinder's site. It passed nearly 4 years since then. I tried to search sites, science sites, news sites, NASA sites and till now Carbon is missing on Pathfinder's mission. Anyway it is still a result. As "to silence means to cooperate..."
If there is life on mars, it's not going to be too unlike these existing organisms.
How do you know this?
We have one sample of life to study. DNA based life on earth. We may have a second type, prionic, but despite (name escapes me) getting a nobel prize for it, it is still somewhat disputed that prions are alive.
All we really know about is "life as we know it". We don't know what other types of life are possible.
So while it is likely that any martian life will be similar to earth based life: carbon based, some type of DNA like molecular system, similar in size, it is by no means certain.
One of the most important reasons for finding life on Mars or anywhere else is that it would give us a second sample to study. Generalizing from one example is somewhat difficult.
Steve M
A computer virus is a bad analogy.
If we could be sure that any martian life was based on a different substrate than earth based life, i.e. silicon, then your analogy would hold. But while we don't know what forms life can take, (which is one of the reasons we want to discover life elsewhere so we have more than one example to study) it is quite likely that it will be similar to earth based life: carbon based, DNA like genetic code, needs water, etc.
So while the biochemistry of any martian life won't be exactly the same as ours, it could very well be similar enough to cause problems.
Steve M
For as far back as we've been able to travel with significant speed between dissimilar ecosystems ...
The problem isn't with dissimilar ecosystems. The problem is that the ecosystem that the invader finds itself in is very similar to the old one, without the checks on its proliferation the old habit contained.
Take for example infectious diseases. The new ecosystem the disease found itself in was almost exactly the same as the old one, H. sapiens, without any immune system defenses. That's why we don't see plant diseases infecting humans. The habitat is too dissimilar.
The problem is that we don't really know if the environment on earth will be different enough to prevent any martian life from thriving. In all likelihood it is, but as was pointed out before in this thread, do you want to take that risk? I don't.
Steve M
Are you under the impression that when the sample is returned it will be a first come first serve to get the samples?
Or is this just a rather lame troll?
NASA will control who gets what regardless of the quarentine decision.
Steve M
I mean no one is planning on sterilizing the Earth-ships before they heard to mars.
NASA sterilizes all of its planetary probes as a matter of course.
Steve M
Microbes don't have to be virulent to make you sick. Or kill you.
They may just eat you.
Steve M
Perhaps not.
They admit the sterilization procedures are not perfect.
And I know nothing about the sterilization or lack thereof for Russian probes.
Steve M
anyone that knows anything about microbiology knows that the dangerous bugs (Ebola,anthrax) are short lived creatures that have to hop from host to host to survive because they consume or destroy the host. they cannot live outside a host, or viable environment for more than a few days. now, we grab a nice rock, put it in a safe box and cart it safely to the earth, you will help that bug get here while it wouldn't make it here through the trial-of-fire re-entry.
Sorry, any professional that says it's hype or political talk is pretty much a moron, and has just announced to the world that fact.
Any professional knows that dealing with unknowns means you treat it as if it wants to kill you, and will if you give it a chance.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
It is better to have a quarantine set up and find out the rocks were harmless as expected, rather than find that they did contain something and have no quarantine in place.
Rocks that pass through the atmosphere, enter at high temperatures, so any life that might have survived the space flight would unlikely survive the re-entry. On the other hand a probe visiting Mars would not put its rock samples through such conditions, so life would have a better chance of surviving.
Anyhow, if the rocks are in quarantine, then you can ensure that they aren't contaminated by Earth based micro-organisms and thus screwing up any lifeform-tests.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Of course, if you fill out one of
then it's ok to enter the continental U.S.
However, Hawaii is a different story
"They quarantined our samples Mr Ambassador! Should we dispense with the biological warfare route and try a full scale invasion instead? We could always pretend to come in peace..."
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
All of the life on earth has evolved into its own particular niche, specializing in exploiting a specific set of environment parameters. For 4 billion years, whatever is left alive today has managed to fight off any sort of competition to at east a near standstill. There's a chance that Martian bugs, growing in a completely alien environment, may be able to survive here unaided, there's a chance that they may find all the extra atmosphere, sunlight, water and heat wonderful and grow out of control, but I'm betting they're barely going to avoid being lunch for E. Coli even under sterile lab conditions.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
We manage quite well right now in P4 labs studying known dangerous organisms. If there is life on mars, it's not going to be too unlike these existing organisms.
The Apollo moon samples were also quarantined and the chances of finding living material on the moon was very remote. Mars is much more likely to contain living material, and therefore even more caution should be taken. Apart from anything else, we want to make sure that earthly life doesn't infect the mars rock before it's been established that there aren't any martian lifeforms there.
Of course many scientists agree this is pure politics given that over a ton of Martian material enters our atmosphere every year, spit up from meteor impacts on Mars.
Yes but does it come here under controlled conditions? I don't think so. Coming over here on a probe will be a lot different than getting pummelled into space, floating over towards earth and then entering the atmosphere and getting torched on it's way down.
A quarantine is warranted.
Execute? [Y/N] _
Here's the mandatory no-registration required link
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It seems quite unlikely that any Martian micro-organisms exist or could harm us.
But how are we going to know what stuff Mars *does* contain unless we keep earth dust, bacteria, and airborne spores out of our samples? Shouldn't we be doing this anyway?
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
Many forms of microbial life would be able to survive such a journey.
Many forms wouldn't.
Although you are correct that it is unlikely in the extreme that anything has survived on mars, however it is always better to play it safe when there is nothing real to be gained by taking a stupid risk no matter how small.
It hurts no one to so a complete analysis of these materials in quarintine before allowing them out.
Finally it is logical to assume that Martian microscopic organisms (if there are any) would be only slightly more hearty than their Earth counterparts. This means that even though some could survive being violently blasted off the surface of the planet, then survive in space for years or even centuries, then survive the massive heat of atmospheric entry, most couldn't.
Since we are now going to bring them back with better control, over the transport envrionment, it is possible for something that could not have otherwise reached Earth to survive.
Granted the chances are minescule, but why take even a small risk of setting off a plague when that can be avoided by such a simple precaution.
There is a civil war coming in the United States. Remember which side has most of the guns
Just as mars asteroids have hit earth, the same applies for the debris from (massive) impacts that Earth has had in it's history. One would think that any organisms that were living here then would have been transported to mars, also, or am I missing something?
Good to see (any) public interest in mars missions tho!
..don't panic
The chances of anything coming from Mars
Are a million to one, he said.
The chances of anything coming from Mars
Are a million to one
And still
They come
</Music>
www.eFax.com are spammers
This seems rather unlikely. Mars has 3/8ths the gravity of Earth -- a lot less, but it would still take a *massive* amount of energy to launch something from it's surface to escape velocity. It also has a thin atmosphere, requiring even more energy and making it unlikely that anything small (like dust) could make it out of the atmosphere.
This atmosphere also will greatly reduce the number of meteors that make it to Mars's surface in the first place. Yes, it's thin, but it's much better than nothing.
It would take a MASSIVE meteor (we're talking `Deep Impact' or `Armageddon' type meteor) to hit Mars to be able to send anything from the surface into space. Let's hope this doesn't happen too often -- because if it did, similar meteors would be hitting the Earth too.
Also, Mars is rather far away. The odds of any particle escaping from Mars making it all the way to Earth are *incredibly* small.
The only Martian material that would be likely to escape Mars in any quantity would be the atmosphere itself. Of course, atmospheric gasses wouldn't burn up in our atmosphere -- they'd just float around with all the other atmospheric gasses. Any bacteria/virii in them would do similarly (assuming it survived space in the first place.)
If we're speculating that Martian life might have been transported here in the past, what's to say that the reverse hasn't also transpired? Given the amount of material that has been shuttled between the two, I'd almost be surprised if at least some Earth-borne microbial life *hadn't* made the trip to Mars at some point. Not to say that there couldn't be native Martian cellular life as well, but if Earth-borne life had made it to Mars and propagated at some point in the past, then a sample-return mission might actually be carrying organisms that could thrive pretty darn well on Earth - given that they, or their ancestors, already had in the past. And a billion years or so on that desolate rock could only have made them tougher...
It makes sense to quarantine the samples to prevent them from getting contaminated by *us* and confusing any results.
I remember reading years ago that NASA's policy on such things was that any samples brought back from other planets were to be treated as Level 4 Biohazard anyway. i.e. glove boxes and biohazard suits.
This is the same standard as pathogens such as Ebola and other haemorragic fevers are kept at.
A quarantine is pointless. As we all know, the DNA code for earthly life actually originated on mars and was transplanted here by benevolent big headed Cydonians. Any life that comes back from there would be us.
Oh, you're one of those fringe wackos who disagree? Well, I dare you to refute this proof ! The big-heads are in it with the Freemasons, not to mention God.
p.s. Call this overrated if you must, but if you mod me offtopic or troll I'll put a cap in your ass.I heard this story on NPR yesterday. There is another reason why they want a quarentine around the rocks, to keep earth bacteria out of the samples. If something from the earth gets in and contaminated the samples it may be very hard to tell what came from earth, and what's from Mars.= \=\=\=\
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The adromeda virus wasn't from another planet, It was scooped out of the upper atmospere by a satalite. When the satalite returned to earth the container holding the sample broke and contaminated a town, and wiped out a jet. I don't think the book says anything about Mars, or other planets.\ =\=\=\=\=\
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Also, it might be worth bearing in mind that anyone who comes into contact with such material should be properly quarantined, to guard against the possibility of aliens bursting from their chest and going on a rampage that only Sigourney Weaver can prevent : )
The waiting game for those things to get back is awfully boring and playing Hungry Hungry Hippos and foosball sure works up an appetite. Don't break a tooth boys! You're the worlds finest so obviously you don't have the dental for it.
Starkle, starkle, little twink.
Of course, since Canada is considering a Mars mission, they will neatly sidestep the U.S. embargo, as they have done before.
And without support for the vaunted missile shield, the U.S. won't even be able to shoot down the Martian samples as they come back to Earth!
P.S. Yes, this is a big fat joke.
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Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
A better reason to quarantine the samples would be to preserve them from earth-bound contaminants. If you don't seal your Mars dust and a few weeks after it arrives on earth you see stuff growing in it, you think, "Oh, my Mars dust now has Earth mold on it." But if it's in a sealed and quarantined container and grows something, you think, "Aha! So Mars has living things on it!"
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
If people are really worried about living microbes invading earth, wiping out civilization, and general doing nasty things, then why bring them home at all?
I know this sounds like anti-science, anti-space exploration rhetoric, but their may be a simple solution that appeases more people then just a simple quarantine.
That solution is the international space station. Sure it's a multibillion-dollar international symbol of yada yada yada, and yes it would be a shame if the station were to become uninhabitable due to a terrible alien plague. Yet that same space station is also isolated from earth and a high tech research laboratory. The same quarantine processes on earth could be exercised in space, but add to that the extra layer of protection and you are a whole lot safer.
in anticipation of the comment that if the evil (or good) microbes take over the space station killing the crew and some how causing the station to plummet from orbit entering our atmosphere bring death with it. Well I suppose that might be a problem now wouldn't it (in the most absurd possible chance that it even could happen.) Well in this most unlikely event those microbes would have the same inferno ride to earth as their rock bound brethren. If that is enough I'm sure one of the nuclear super powers here on earth will be more then happy to get their guns off and blow the thing to smithereens. SO their you go, an almost fool proof (see building a better fool) quarantine that supports exploration and discovery.
Geoffrey Cameron Peart
McMaster Software Engineering
Geoffrey Cameron Peart
McMaster Software Engineering
Monkies? I like Monkies
I thought the US space program was in the process of undergoing a whole ton of budget cuts thanks to GWBush. I guess that means that actual space missions are getting scrapped in favour of meetings where bureaucrats fantasize about what they'd do if they had actual space missions.
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
They absolutly should be totally quarantined due to the fact that our own microbes will contaminate the samples and then make it hard to tell if indeed there was any life on it or not.
StarTux
Scary, huh?
I agree. It's one thing for martian material to be blasted into space where it orbits for millions, perhaps billions of years before it impacts in Antarctica. This is direct from Mars to Washington D.C. without all those bothersome millenia of celestial mechanics in the way.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
(snip) given that over a ton of Martian material enters our atmosphere every year, spit up from meteor impacts on Mars. (/snip)
Riiight, because that "intense heat in reentry" thing wouldn't kill anything...
What does it mean to wake out of a dream
and be wearing someone else's shorts?
BNL, Born on a Pirate Ship (1998)
while true that some microorganisms could survive an interplanetary trip on their own, not all of them can. why not take the high road and quarantine them? nothing is lost by doing that, and you significantly reduce the potential of disease. sounds like a no brainer to me.
Rabbits in Australia.
The banana slug.
The gypsy moth.
Numerous infectious diseases carried by explorers.
For as far back as we've been able to travel with significant speed between dissimilar ecosystems, we have consistently failed to anticipate the tremendous impact of flora and fauna that often accompany those travels. As often as not, the cause is ignorance of the presence of these "passengers." I agree that politics may be a significant driving factor here, but honestly, looking back, have we learned nothing about just using a little bit of caution? If we feel like taking the martian rocks out for a walk in the sun here on earth, we can always do that later...there's no need to do it straight off the recovery site, and the past seems to be a good argument not to do so until we are absolutely sure what it would mean.
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
Yeah, I don't see mars life as a threat, but with all this caution going on NASA's part the rest of the world should follow the example, you know, protect ourselves from the dangerous things in life. AOL free trial disks, don't throw them away, make sure they're hermetically sealed so as not to hurt anyone. Jello, what is that stuff, seriously? It should be kept away from major cities.
An while we're at it, the average slashdot reader should be quarantined, we might spread geek, that's how I got it, I was going to be a model before this web site, now I'm all nerdy.
spacefem.com
I think quantining is a wise decision, just in terms of the benefit when compared to the cost. Say there's a one in a billion chance that there may be something nasty in a Mars rock. That may be way off, so call it one in 5 billion, or ten, or whatever floats your boat.
Anyway, when you consider the cost of sending a probe to Mars and returning a sample to Earth, the cost of quarantine is a comparative drop in the bucket. It't a bit more hassle and expense, granted, but not much compared to the entire project. Why not be on the safe side? Better to have a quarantine and not need it...
I'm the stranger...posting to
aren't there?
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