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EU To Investigate DVD pricing
traffosky writes: "At
this address, the BBC says that the EU's competition commissioner,
Mario Monti, is about to lauch an investigation into DVD pricing policies on the European side of the Atlantic. He is unhappy with the fact that EU consumers pay about 25% more than their US counterparts. He will also be asking Hollywood about the regional coding system. I'm not sure if the BBC 'get it' yet, though: they filed this story under "Entertainment: Film"." Perhaps this zoning thing will draw even more deserved scrutiny -- as it already has from a UK supermarket chain and from the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) down under.
That part isn't the problem -- if you want cheap gas you can drive a little farther to get it, and the market dictates that those prices will be set at exactly the point where profit is (locally) optimized. As long as the consumer has the ability to make that drive over to the next town (within reason), the marketplace works more or less as it should.
The problem with the region coding limitations is that they place an artificial restraint on market forces -- making it nominally impractical, for example, for someone to import a crate of DVDs from, say, India, and resell them in the U.S., even though the numbers might otherwise work out profitably (i.e. net profits more than cover the costs of importing and order processing). I have seen various posts suggesting a lawsuit against the movie industry for exactly this restraint of trade, but to my knowledge no one has taken any specific action yet.
As to your well-taken point about the evils of a fully encrypted end-to-end path, with users forced to buy "trusted client" machines, well, that is a different (albeit equally serious) problem altogether.
I always viewed region coding as essential to releasing DVDs, simply due to the various legally binding distribution contracts. (Note: I am not saying this is a good way to do it, but i feel this is the reason for their existence)
For example, the movie Titanic was distributed by Paramount in the US only, and Fox got the rights to sell it elsewhere. To sell the same exact disc everywhere, both Paramount and Fox would have to agree on the disc features, extra footage copyrights, packaging, etc. Whereas if Paramount had one version, they wouldn't need Fox's approval. Compromise across corporate boundaries is often VERY difficult to broker.
This brokering would lead to serious delays in releasing of the disc globally. And actually might cost more to develop in the long run.
Tom
The zoning scam has nothing going for it. These aren't complaints that places outside the States pay less, but that they pay more.
But that leaves out the worst things about zoning. Try moving to Region 4. Then try buying movies. Say, oh, The Piano, The Dark Crystal, and The Princess Bride.
You can't. In fact, you can't buy them outside North America. Like those movies? Want to pay for them? Too bad, fuck you. You can't have 'em. I'm in New Zealand, and I can't buy The Piano, even though it was filmed in New Zealand, written by a New Zealander, directed by a New Zealander, and starred New Zealanders in leading roles.
There are literally *thousands* of movies that *cannot* be purchased outside of the US on DVD. There are hundreds more that are grossly cut back - sans commentaries, documentaries, interviews, you name it, even though they cost *more* than the same DVD bought in and shipped from the US.
You know... he could swear up and down that he has no problem with that, and insist that they keep charging him $95, and it still won't make it inherently right. It would only illustrate who he sides with.
You will _not_ necessarily get a economic-libertarian-randroid type to acknowledge they're being unreasonable by throwing extreme cases at 'em. They will simply annoy you by fanatically insisting that they don't have any rights to fairness either, and that if they WANTED to, they could become the MPAA too (presumably by working through weekends and holidays! o_O ).
The only real argument you have is the argument that going with the most utterly pure form of free-market laissez-faire is NOT beneficial to society- that it goes out of balance. There's tons of evidence for this (sometimes softened by the vestiges of regulation and control, like with the California power grid), but you're not dealing with someone who places a value on society, typically you're dealing with someone whose only concern is 'can I be one of the winners?'.
If that's what you're up against, you can't win the argument, and you just have to over-rule them and shut them up. Talking of fairness only makes sense in a context where there is a society to be protected, and not everybody wishes society to exist. Some people want no rules and the death of the weak... which is a recipe for species extinction as the species charges into a local maximum, kills off all its diversity, and then croaks when conditions change and the finely optimised uber-people can no longer adapt because they're too inbred to what worked _last_ century.
Yes, this is an unusual way to look at it- your point?
And, _through_ looking at it that way, the reason they can't charge whatever the fuck they want is because it's bad for society for the biggest ass-kickers to be TOO efficient. We already have a somewhat limited set of choices for entertainment in the sense of 'movies to watch'. You're not gonna see big variety at your local movie house. The discriminatory pricing is only _part_ of a _pattern_ that also involves squeezing out other choices and dominating the public awareness completely. The more money they have to do that, the better they'll do it. Give them less money, they will be less able to do it- and that becomes a social good, allowing more options to arise over the long term, and take over from the MPAA if they really start to produce sucky products.
THAT is why they can't charge whatever they want. Not because they couldn't get away with it- because they could, and are, and in so doing they finance ever more expansion, past what is socially useful.
Of course, the EU just wants to get its DVDs cheaper ;) but this is why they should be _allowed_ to when the MPAA can successfully pull off cartel/monopoly pricing.
I wish that someone (or some group) would check out the prices of [System Administrators] in the states (and around the worls for that matter). I know that there are [training] and [teaching] costs that come with each [sysadmin] but to pay $ [85,000/yr] for a [bearded whacko who treats his fellow employees as if he's pissing on them from a great height] on is crazy. I think this is why [Microsoft] became so popular. If it was easy to [setup] and [make changes to DNS records from a GUI] I am sure we would see a rise in [Microsoft stock].
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Hmm. On Friday Amazon (yeah, ok) delivered five DVDs to me at work.
I live/work in the UK, which is in region 2. All five discs were region 1.
Better yet, they are all the new improved "wont work on regionless players" region 1.
Y'know what? I stuck them in my DVD player on Saturday, and they all work fine. And that DVD player can also play all the region 2 discs I own.
So I'm a little confused by the zoning thing. As far as I can tell, its main purpose is to give me more choice of which DVD I want to buy - the overpriced region 2 disc with minimal extras, or the region 1 Criterion Collection version with four commentaries, outtakes, storyboards, etc. Don't forget the other regions (also playable on my player).
Since I haven't had my player modified - even by the company I purchased it from - but use only its core built-in technologies, and since the player costs about half of a decent video player, anybody that gets caught by regionalisation either doesn't care or is too daft to know. And most people in the UK are not too daft..
~Cederic
This is the infamous "Hollywood accounting", a branch of applied mathematics that enables movie studios and record companies to sell a product to every carbon based life form in the universe, and still claim that they haven't made a profit, and don't have to pay money to people whose contracts entitle them to a percentage of the net profits.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
CDs first appeared on the market in 1983, and since then, the Consumer Price Index (a US benchmark of inflation) has risen by two-thirds. If the price of a CD had kept pace with inflation, an album that cost $15 in 1983 would cost $25 now. So the real (inflation-adjusted) cost of a CD has come down.
--
send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
I'm sure most of us view region encoding as anti-competitive, and indeed I have bought lots of region one DVDs to avoid UK DVD pricing, so what is the best way, as a UK citizen, to get our voice heard in this review ??
Incidentally, I would be interested to know what UK/ EU law has to say concerning fair use, DeCSS, obtaining or hacking your DVD player to be region free, and other DVD related issues. I know the Designs and Copyright Act 1988 may be relevant.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
One other interesting thing to note is the price of DVDs in comparison to video tapes. Even taking into account the fact that there are all the different parties wanting a slice of the cake, a DVD is likely to cost less to produce than a Video tape. Sure there are sub-titles and dubbing to be added, but then again that work has usually already been done for the big screen. Also it probably costs less to produce a multi-language DVD than it does to create and distribute 5 different videos for 5 languages.
The same argument can be given to CDs as compared to tapes, since CDs work out to be $5 more than you cassette tape.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
He's fucking right. You don't NEED DVD's, and there's no reason the MPAA should have to justify their pricing. It's their product -- if you don't think you are getting fair value for your dollars, DONT BUY IT. I don't agree with region-encoding, but thats another topic entirely. My point is they should be able to charge whatever price they want for their product.
And for the record, I do not own a DVD player (aside from the one my computer came with, which I have never used), nor any DVDs. Somehow, I have still managed to struggle through daily live without DVDs.
BilldaCat
I actually totally disagree with your second point there. In fact, that's the main point that I can't see a defence for.
I can see an argument that They don't want people seeing movies on DVD before they're released in the cinema. I may not agree with it, but I can see a case. As for worldwide cinema releases, I don't think that's practical, but maybe that's just me.
What I can't see a defence for is releasing the same movie on DVD with different features in different regions. For example, if I get the region 2 version of Crouching Tiger (I'm in Ireland), it has the movie and nothing else (more or less). The region 1 and region 3 versions have extra interviews, commentaries, etc. This means I have a choice between a sub-standard copy, or an 'illegal' copy.
Incidentally, there are dvd players out there that get totally around RCE. They have several region modes: you can set them to a specific region or set them to auto-detect.
disclaimer: maybe I'm wrong about CTHD, but there are plenty of cases like this, so I don't need to be corrected, thanks.
Cheers,Noims
This is not the greatest sig in the world. This is just a tribute.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
You know, there's more to the world than just the US of A. At current exchange rates full-priced CDs in Europe cost usually around $16-$22. I pay $17-$18 for my new CDs and $6-$10 for used CDs. A couple of years ago when EU hadn't yet crashed the value of the money the price range for CDs was more like $21-$30.
As for DVDs, many people in Europe are aware of region modified players. Basically every PAL player can play NTSC discs by default, and region modifications are easy (but often not very cheap) to get. For many people (like myself) the reason is not the price, it's the number of discs available. About one third of my collection is not available in Europe, though some discs are all-region.
Also, there are often significant differences between the different region versions of the same title. Some European discs have to give up some extras to get space for more audio tracks. Sometimes even the quality of video and audio can vary, though usually PAL video is superior to NTSC despite the slight speed difference.
In Finland most new full-priced DVDs cost around $20-$30, with some bargain titles being even $10 or less. A bit surprisingly, ordering new discs from Australia seems to be the cheapest option ($14-$18 including P&P), even cheaper than getting discs from the US. And many Australian discs are identical to European versions, even having two region codes (R2 and R4, Europe and Australia).
I think you just proved beyond a doubt why distributing music on CDs deserves to go the way of the dinosaur. It's so much easier just to download things.
/., but it's still TRUE! e-gold (try it, and I'll click you some if you send me an account number) has been keeping the promises others made about the 'net since since the currency went online in 1996, with minimal hype. Is it perfect? No, but it's good enough to solve the problem of compensating musicians for downloads without compensating 4 layers of record-industry lard-asses in the process, and that's why I rant repeatedly about it. (I want to be the lard-ass who gets the trips to Scores, so I guess this comment rates "-1, greedy-as-hell," but who knows -- I don't care, I just know that we're more efficient with voluntary tips than the present system, and probably better for music, too.) Thanks for listening (again, in many cases).
Yes, you're right that downloading is easier and more efficient for you, but there's something you forgot to mention (probably accidentally, I'm not accusing you of anything).
We need to remember to compensate the artists! Musician/actress Courtney Love in her Salon piece says WHAT is needed -- tips (even Robert Cringely has finally, slowly, gotten it) -- but she doesn't say HOW. I have a way to solve the how question, and cut out a lot of middlemen (who won't be happy losing their trips to Scores, etc. that Courtney mentions).
I know, I've said this over & over here on
JMR
Try e-gold - (contact me). I'm NOT e-
I wish that someone (or some group) would check out the prices of CD's in the states (and around the worls for that matter). I know that there are marketing and royalty costs that come with each CD but to pay $15 for a CD is crazy. I think this is why MP3's became so popular. If it was easy to compress and move a movie over the net I am sure we would see a rise in movie sharing.
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?"
One of these days enough common folks will know about the region coding that enough lawers and political reps will figure out that their hide will be thicker if they go after it. And until then, region-flexible players sound like the way to go.
Evan - needs to hit preview before submitting
"The best way to get the price of DVDs down is to stop buying them!!!"
Only partially true. No-one bought DiVX when Circuit City launched it. Result - the format dies a death. Very few people bought laserdiscs. Result - Special Editions costing over $100 and even bare-bones discs at $40.
What you are saying is true to some extent, as I'm sure Paramount would drop their prices closer to some of the cheaper studios if they thought the numbers looked bad at their current price, but you are only getting your cheap discs in Walmart (or any discs in Walmart) because they are selling well.
In any case, the issue here is that discs in the EU are significantly more expensive than US discs. What the EU are probably concerned about is that Region Encoding is locking the average consumer into buying the expensive local disc, rather than importing a cheap US one. Naturally, the clued in just mod chip their players round the problem, but thats not a solution for everyone.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
It's not just DVDs that are zoned. Many videogame CDs are also zoned and the US versions are considerably cheaper than the European versions. I know the companies will provide "reasonable" arguments for this ("wse don't want to have US gamers suddenly finding their games in Japanese", "we don't want European players fidning the NTSC disk won't work") but surely there is a difference between warning about compatabilities vs. actively preventing the disks playing, even though many people can play US disks on their Europan system, for example. I think this would provide them with a much argument against modchips as there would no longer be a "legal" reason to modify your game console.
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
CSS Region coding is a tool used to "extract the customer surplus". You charge a price in a given market which is optimal for profits considering the number of units that will sell and the margin.
It is also the first step down a slippery slope. Its a tenative first step: right now the average person wont notice it, and will probably not even realize that it exists.
But if its accepted then it will fester. Pretty soon the price for a movie or a song will be set based upon which state you live in. Then by which city. Ultimatly they will charge each customer the most they are willing to pay.
We will each end up with "trusted" computers and electronics that use a "secure media path" all the way to the speakers and screen. Each individual will have to get their own copies, digitally signed to their account number and device id's. Of course when you buy a new Movie player youll have to buy your movies all over again- because the old ones will only play on your old player.
It wont be so bad, fairly well automated, all content downloaded online right into your player. $40 wont be too bad for a flick. And you dont really care that the rich guy down the street has to pay $400 for the same exact movie- thats his problem, right?
Is this where we want to end up?
But then, this analogy is flawed.
You see, a specific flight on a given route has a finite amount of space. If there are 300 seats for sale, it is just damn well impossible to stuff 350 people into a plane. (OK, theoretically it's possible, but you won't be in business very long).
This also applies when you combine the capacity of all given carriers. There is so-and-so much capacity for a given route and if there is a lot of (over-)capacity, this potentially drives prices down. That's the reason why you fly cheaper from Los Angeles to New Yourk, then from Hicksville to Muskogee. Even if it's 8 time the distance.
You also conveniently forget the restrictions attached to cheaper flight tickets. If I pay up to 5 times the price for a full fare business class ticket, that gives me the right to board or not board the booked flight at my convenience. I don't even have to call the airline to cancel and I can change my schedule at any time and at no charge.
Now, the more cheapo an airline ticket is, the more strings are attached: Minimum/maximum stay, Sunday stay-over, No refunds, schedules can not be changed, or changes carry a stiff penalty, etc.
What a business person needs is flexibility more then any thing else. Not only the flexibility to book four hours in advance, but also to change her plans at whim.
This is very different with medias. Be it software, music or motion pictures. Once you payed for the production and/or development costs, the cost of a copy is marginal.
Don't get me wrong; huge amounts where invested into those products and the production entities certainly have a right to make a fair profit on their investments.
They definitely don't have the right to exploit customers, based on rules and backed by laws which are convenient only to them.
Unless of course they can obtain the best politicians money can buy...
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
To: European Union
From: MPAA
Subject: W3 0wnz j00!
Dear European Union:
Now you have pissed us off, we have hired the l33t3st hax0rs in the world. We won't get rid of our regional codes; we have to make a profit and rape your wallets. Moreover, we have an obligation to eliminate -all- our competition from the face of the earth, and we will no matter what it takes. See, our goal is to take over the world, just like what we depict in Hollywood. I'm very sure though that we are the good guys in this one; after all, we are protecting our intelectual property.
Since you did send a letter from your competition department, we now see you as a threat to our existance. You fuckers are probably pirates, too! You and your open source coders like that Torvalds guy. We hate that; we refuse to lose a dime after all. We prefer ignorant americans just like ourselves buying into a system where we can rape wallets and pillage life savings; to protect our intelectual property.
Now you see where we are coming from. Expect that your piddly servers with your pirated content be DoS'ed soon by our scr|p7 k|dd|3s.
Regards,
The More Pathetic Assholes of America (MPAA)
P.S. -- And you thought we were the Motion Picture Association of America.
Karma whorin' since 1999
> I'm not sure if the BBC 'get it' yet, though:
> they filed this story under "Entertainment:
> Film".
As opposed to "getting it" Slashdot, which
filed it under "Movies". Ummmm...
Chris Mattern
EU: "In that case, we demand that the region system is abandoned."
Depends who is in charge though...
Germany: We demand equality and freedom for our citizens. Ban region codes.
French: Dirty Hollywood ruins our lovely film industry. Abolish region codes, and while we're at it, let's ban US films period. That should annoy the Americans and the British at the same time.
Netherlands: Whatever the opposite of what Germany wants.
British: America is our friend. They are very nice people. Let's do what they want. Another missile base, Mr Bush? Why of course! Treaties? Oh I'm sure nobody's really bothered about those old things. Plus, it'll really annoy the French. Let's make imports cheaper and compulsary
Italians: There were rules about this?
Eastern Europe (as one voice): There are non-pirated versions?
Spain: Yeah, whatever.
Switzerland: We're not in the EU.
So it really depends on which contries sit on the comittee, really. And am I the only person in the world that is worried about the fact that all Switzerland's neighbouring countries would describe them as "shy, quiet.. keep themselves to themselves.. seem like really nice, polite fellows, wouldn't hurt a fly". It's only a matter of time.
---------------------------
'No rational religion claims "supernatural" exists, that's an atheist slander.' - seen on slashdot.
The higher pricing is probably because of the distribution companies inside the local country or the local versions of the parent company. The stand in the middle and rip people off school of business...
In Japan a "Pulp Fiction" DVD with Japanese subtitles is about $50... ow. Compared to the US where you can get them for $17. Hmmm... somehow I doubt the translator demands a 50% royalty. Of course you can get the Chinese version for $2 on the street. *wink* *wink*
Recently Warner Brothers has cut all their DVDs down to about $20 in Japan, about half the price of all the others... pretty crazy. So I am in the interesting situation of only being able to afford or justify purchasing DVDs which are from WB. If I want to watch with Japanese friends etc.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
Yes, its that simple. You will hear a great deal about social goods or justice or morality or how some price is "unreasonably high". It is nothing but an elaborate (often self) deception. The logic in the end is the same. They want what someone else has created. If they can't get it at the the price they want, this makes the owner evil.
It is very difficult to reason with such people. There is an almost reflexive connection between their wants/feelings and judgements about what is right or wrong. The thinking very much resembles that of the religious zealot or homophobe. For them, the unconfortable feeling they get when they think of such things is enough to provoke a judgement that such things are wrong. There is no reasoning that goes on.
Take the example of "unreasonable price." Just how is anyone supposed to determine logically what a reasonable price is? Is there some formula? No. "unreasonable price" is just a synonym for "I don't like the price" or "I feel the price it too high."
My favorite is when people invoke the idea of a "social good." Again, most of the time, "social good" is just a synonym for "my good." In the end, they really mean "less good for them, more good for me." Really, how could it mean anything else? Values are ultimately subjective. How can anyone be in a position to determine objectively what is a "social good"? People who invoke the term "social good" really have no choice but to use their own values in deciding what is a social good and what isn't. For me, allowing people to charge what they what for what they make on the priciple that they are not slaves to society is a "social good." Others think this is incorrect. How can we decide objectively who is right? We can't. In the end issues of right and wrong come down to subjective judgement and personal value systems. I just wish people would be honest with me and themselves about where their own ideas of right and wrong come from and not hide behind elaborate abstractions like "social good."
We can discuss how it is we can get what we each want. Some will conclude that giving people the right to charge what they wish for what they create, in the end, will provide most of us with what we want. Other's will conclude that outright theft is the easiest way. Others will be somewhere in between. Its starts with people being honest with themselves.
So, the answer to the question is:
People can't charge what they want because other people don't like it. They are even willing to get violent about it (they hide behind the abstrations "illegal" and "law" and get professional thugs called "police" who have guns and batons to do their dirty work).
Front panel region selection
No macrovision
Disc script ignoring
Lock-out ignoring
Decent quality
The script and lock-out things are necessary because some (most?) DVD's have annoying "splash" scenes that play when you pick options. Or the scripts verify regions. Also many movies don't let you fast forward (FCC warnings), pause, rewind, etc.!!
Got friends?
When they say zone protection is to protect their business, it's bullshit. It's to protect their profit without value-adding in their products. If they really want to prevent water goods, they can:
- Don't price up outragously in some regions
- Make some regional specific stuffs, e.g. european languages version, so that customers would prefer to buy they own regional version
In the past they'd focus on customers' satisfaction, now they find legal ways to restrict customers from making their own purchase preferences - with Government consent. That's sad.
" THAT is why they can't charge whatever they want. Not because they couldn't get away with it- because they could, and are, and in so doing they finance ever more expansion, past what is socially useful.
"
I see this issue differently. Let the MPAA sell DVD's at whatever price they wish to, wherever they wish to. BUT, the consumer should have the right to buy his DVD's anwyhere he wishes. That means, if they are selling them for $15 in Indiana, he should be able to buy them over the net for that anywhere else in the world.
This is NOT a case of a government wanting to tell business what they can charge. It's a government questioning a system that enforces a supply monopoly that lets a cartel set prices, not the market.
For instance, if DVD sellers in the UK have to comptete with Americnan Internet mail order houses, you bet the prices will go down. Either because the retailers lower them or else the retailers DEMAND lower prices from the MPAA to compete.
It is this competition the MPAA's region scheme is there to prevent. It would be hard for the MPAA to argue that they can't afford to sell a DVD for less than $30 one place when they sell it for $15 another place.
That is how the free market works. Command markets, whether run by communist/fascist government, or by coprporate cartels, are BAD for the consumer and should be fought.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Last time I checked senior executives of large multinationals engaged in criminal conspiracies told lies to avoid prosecution.
The fact is that most of the material out on DVD and zone encoded is from the back catalogue. New movie releases are only a small fraction of the DVDs that are on sale.
The only possible explanation for the zone system is to allow differential pricing, to allow the studios to charge more in one zone than in another. That is illegal and there is no reason that the EU should not fine the studios a few billion dollars apiece.
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Oh really, tell that to IBM. After the Reagan administration dropped the anti-trust case against them (large campaign contributions) the EU went ahead and fined them over a billion dollars - the largest corporate fine in history at the time.
The Commission can bring proceedings against the studios in the European court, the judgement can be enforced in any EU member state.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
DVD for movies is great, but the way the
entertainment companies are treating their
customers is sort of annoying. I'm a German
citizen, my wife is Italian and we both talk
English very well. If I go to buy a DVD in Germany
it often happens that the soundtrack is only
German. If we buy DVD in Italy the soundtrack
is usually Italian and sometimes also English.
The most annoying thing so far was "Terminator 2"
which has an English soundtrack, but with
italian subtitles that can't be turned off.
Do the entertainment firms think that the
customer is so stupid that he really needs
subtitles. If I use the original soundtrack,
then I do it for a reason of course and if I
would like to have subtitles in my native
language I would turn them off. But forcing
you to do it in a way you don't want to do
is really annoying. Customers are treated like
kids in the kindergarten.
Well, at least my problem with DVD is not the
price (that is pretty high of course) but the
availability of languages (even when all are
using the same region code).