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Challenging The OEMs on Java
There's a great Dan Gillmor article, from his blog [?] regarding the challenge issued by Tim O'Reilly and Clay Shirky to the computer OEMs, asking them to include the latest Java JRE. As Microsoft has said they won't be including Java in WinXP, but are cool with "letting" OEMs put in other programs, let's see the manufacturers strike a blow for competition, and compatibility, and including a non-"extended and embraced" JRE.
Dan appears to be under the delusion that a 'free to distribute' license actually holds any water when you're a bigger company.
I happen to work for one of said OEM's, and was part of the discussions to do this very thing. Suffice it to say, it's never as simple as 'just include it in the image, it's free dummy - look at the license' - not when we've both got lawyers and marketing and executives, etc. Not only that, Sun directly competes with the OEM's in a good number of cases (especially on the server, appliance server and storage side) - it's akin to Gateway asking Dell to put a piece of (albeit industry-standard) software on their systems with their name all over it. That just doesn't happen.
Obviously we decided not to include the JRE. FYI, Microsoft played no role in the decision that was made.
Mind you, I'd like to see OEMs put a demo version of Opera , or a link to O's homepage, with the looser terms, on the desktop. Offer the consumer the choice. Of course, now that I think about it, most OEM's have everything default to 640x480; I dread to imagine all the icons that might be on the screen at once!!
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
The JRE is an intelligent DLL under Windows in that it is not loaded until it's needed, unlike the underlying IE DLLs which are loaded at the start and take up memory even if not used. So it's not going to slow the user or comsume memory until it's needed.
The critical thing that needs to be done by Sun with regards to Java support is to have something like Windows Update or the Quicktime Updater: the ability to run one program that will grab the newest and latest files and install them, using a diff-like method instead of downloading *everything* again. If you tell a user that they can upgrade for a quick 500k download and to just press 'here', as opposed to telling them to download the newest JRE by going to some site, and downloading ANOTHER 8meg file, you'll have more people that stay current.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
It depends on how Microsoft chooses to implement this choice. From the way they have been promoting the 'download any JVM you want' option, you'd think that they were going to make IE 6 use the OJVM standard for embedding third party JVM's in their web browser, as is supported on the Macintosh using Apple's Macintosh Runtime for Java standard.
I really doubt that this is the case, which means people wanting to use Sun's JVM will have to code their HTML to use the (much more complex) ActiveX/Netscape Plugin based Java Plug-in, rather than the old fashioned <APPLET> tag.
Really, though, for distribution of Java applications to the user's desktop, the best thing going right now is Sun's Java Web Start, which makes it super, super easy and efficient to distribute Java applets and applications to Windows desktops.
I just put support for Java Web Start into Ganymede, and our users are loving it. No more having to start up a full web browser to get the Ganymede client going, no more having the Ganymede client killed off if they forget and quit their browser while the client is running.
Java Web Start is some wonderful stuff for free standing Java applications. If every IBM, Gateway, and Dell PC out there came with it I would be in seventh heaven. Unfortunately, Sun happens to be a hardware competitor to all of those companies, so it's not clear how much they would want to help Sun out with this.
- jon
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
I don't think this is true. In my experience it takes far more code to interface to an existing high-level interface than to reimplement it. My best example is X window managers, I have written both them and toolkits that talk to them. I would say 50% of the window manager is interfacing code to the applications, and the code the toolkit uses to talk to the window manager is 1.6 times larger than the code in the window manager to draw and drag windows. Thus if the window manager were eliminated we would all programs would have a piece replaced with a piece that is 1/1.6 in size, and ALL of the window manager is removed. This would result in significant savings overall.
Another way to look at it is to imagine the widgets in your JavaOS. Do you really think that at the widget point (like the interface to a text input field) Java would abrubtly stop being used, and the rest coded in assembler or C? Or, more likely, wouldn't the widget itself be in Java and talking to a lower-level interface that draw letters and rectangles. And then wouldn't that lower interface be well-documented and the "widget" just run in user space?
Of course it would work like this, because it would be about a million times easier to design such a system. The same thing is true when writing a toolkit to run on a system you don't control.
The problem with Java is not that it is a bad idea to program to a low level, but that the implementation itself is badly done and bloated. Swing could learn a lot from gtk or even (god forbid) mfc.
Yes, I was trolling. My point is that there's shedloads of stuff which 'costs nothing' to install, and some of it is actually pretty good. There's no reason why Java should get special treatment. OTOH, ship a half-decent perl5 environment and people could really get some useful work done :-).
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
We should also demand that manufacturers ship a copy of Cygwin with each Windows PC. It costs them nothing but makes it much easier to download and run lots of free software ported to Windows.
Heck, while you're at it, why not 'demand' that they include a Linux partition? Hard disk space is cheap these days.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
for starters you didn't even link to the current level... that's 1.3, not 1.2 as you're linking.
But far more importantly you only linked to one option, Sun... as if they were the only game in town, or even the best game in town. Try http://ibm.com/java if you want a serious JVM.
A lot of home users these days buy computer mags, just to try and learn a little more about them.. :)
This is the original distribution method for both IE and Netscape.. They appeared on the cover disks of magazines.. With big titles proclaiming the latest releases
A lot of people still use dialups, and will be more than a little miffed that they're supposed to download such huge bits simply to view java..
However, putting an installer on a CD would be a bit of a sales booster for people not wanting to spend hours downloading over a 14.4 modem.
And it would also be able to proclaim all these new releases of Java, nudging people to stay current.
Malk
Slashdot routinely promotes (or promoted) DVDs, movies, music CDs, and other products from the two industries which have attacked the Free Software movement more aggressively and more effectively than Microsoft ever has: the Recording Industry Association of Amaerica (RIAA) and the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA).
While I boycott both of those industries, and have for over a year and a half now, it is because I personally have chosen to give up immediate consumer gratification in order to remain at least somewhat true to my conscience.
Slashdot, on the other hand, bemoans the attacks on one hand and actively markets their products on the other, indirectly putting even more money into the pockets of those who are financing litigious thuggary against free software volunteers. Despicable, but they have presumably decided that playing both sides against the middle enhances their bottom line in some fashion, perhaps through increased readership, add revinue, or some other less obvious mechanism. Or perhaps the editors are simply as unable to go without their instant consumer gratification as most of America is and thus are attending the opening night of movies like Final Fantasy the movie because they cannot be bothered to wait (when nearly every penny opening night goes to the hollywood studios rather than the local theatre, as opposed to seeing the movie 4 weeks later when nearly every penny goes to the local theatre instead) because they simply cannot live a day without their bread and circuses, never mind social, political, or economic consiquences.
Sites like slashdot and kuro5hin (which has seriously declined over the last few weeks, sufficiently so that I removed links to it on my own website) are not where we should be looking for "leadership" or even significant support. If any of us are really serious about reclaiming our rights we need to organize our own political action groups, and/or support existing ones such as the FSF and the EFF. K5, slashdot, and their ilk have shown themselves to be fair weather activists at best, ready to run back to the couch and submit to the mindless drone of the television and whatever the media moguls are feeding us at the first hint of seeing something new or shiny.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Personally I'd like to see OEM's include Netscape 6.x the latest and/or mozilla. As well as an option to install Linux. Or maybe offer dual boot systems off the get go and see how many people buy a dual boot. Or offer a trial vmware with other OSes installed. Or even includes some of the software for other apps.
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Particularly as version 1.4 is currently in beta, available for download from http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/
:)
Release is scheduled for fourth quarter of 2001, ie RSN now
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
One way to get massive client-side deployment of the JRE would be for Sun, or a third party, to release a killer game that uses Java3D...
:-)
This would also be cool for Linux people, since the game would run unchanged on linux
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Yeah, that'll work... I'm sorry, but Slashdot's record on activisim is pretty damn weak. For instance, Slashdot tried to institute a boycott against the MPAA and all of it's products. Yet, every week we have JonKatz acting as a paid wind-bag and reviewing every piece of tripe that is coming out of Hollywood.
I wouldn't expect Slashdot to support a boycott of anything.
-m
There is a difference between "used by the general computing public" and "no one" (as suggested by the original poster).
People might like to look at the JRE license agreement before they talk about free redistribution. The agreement *clearly* states that it's *only* allowed to be redistributed for the *sole* purpose of running the *accompanying* Java program. (JRE 1.2 and above)
:-(.
In other words, you can't give JRE to somebody else to allow them to run their program.
How do I know this? I've been trying to get permission from somebody at Sun to redistribute the JRE with our educational Java IDE for months. So far, no go. Even worse, you can't even purchase a license to redistribute it because it's "freely redistributable" and there is no provision at Sun for licensing it
My sales guy at Sun has tried heroically, but the lawyers have the final say.
Now, we're just small (well, miniscule) fry compared to the manufacturers, but it certainly means prolonged negotiation with Sun before obtaining permission to put it on their machines.
Because this is slashdot. Any post praising Microsoft or bashing linux gets moderated to high heaven.
I remember when slashdot was actually for open source now it's for microsoft.
War is necrophilia.
Why is this idiot liear moderated up.
/.ers support - you only have to install what _you_ want, not what the OS vendor wants - but everyone here is complaining about it."
/., such as it is, goes out the window when a chance to bash Microsoft appears..."
"First, why all this pleading that Java should be considered a vital part of the OS?"
LIE. Nobody said anything like this. Nobody said it should be part of the OS they said it should be pre-installed by the OEM. Go learn english and re-read the posts.
"Yet here is Microsoft removing the JRE from the OS ('unbundling', if you will), leaving you free to install any version from any vendor, and everyone is complaining about it"
LIE. Nobody is complaining about anything they are urging the OEMs to pre-install the JRE. Not only are you a liar but you seem to be profoundly confused about the difference between bundling a ham sandwith with your OS and calling it innovation and the PC manufacturers pre-installing applications. A stupid liar.
"Finally, isn't this how Microsoft's much-hyped new OEM licensing should work?"
Here you are just plain stupid. Well duh you brickhead of course this is the way the OEMs shoudl work. All bundling should be done at the OEM level and the OEMs should be free to bundle and UNBUNDLE any thing they want. People are asking the OEMs to bundle their favorite thingie why do you have a problem with that?
"All in all, this is something that's more in line with the philosophy that
Whoo hoo here you are just babling incorently. See if you can understand this simple concept really I'll try and use small words. We want the OEMs to listen to us because WE ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS. Did you get that? WE ARE BUYING THE PC NOT MICROSOFT. Why should the OEM listen the OS manufacturer when they should be listening to their customers.
"It seems to me that the consistency of arguments on
Well this is the biggest lie of all. Your post got moderated up because it bashed slashdot and defends MS. There are numerous other examples of that on this topic alone. The days of slashdot being an open source community are long gone. Now it's full of astro-turfers and MS shills like yourself.
Of course I will be moderated down for actually pointing out that you are liar and critisizing Microsoft.
War is necrophilia.
Many non-techs couldn't tell you what JRE stands for, much less why they need it while browsing the web.
I think any computer distributor who really had their customers' interests in mind would distribute a JRE, given the volume of web pages their customers will encounter that needs one.
----------------------------------
"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
If a large computer manufacturer was willing to install opera, I think they'd be willing to sell licenses in bulk for a buck or two. That could translate out to a revenue boost of a million or two bucks that they'd normally not get. How many people actually download and pay for Opera anyway?
Several points here... First, why all this pleading that Java should be considered a vital part of the OS? Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the question, and even given the prevalence of Java on the Internet, this does rather come across as a bunch of Java guys whining about why their favourite language is really important and everyone should have it whether they want it or not. Why not also plead for the installation of Perl, Python etc. on all new PCs? It would make just as much sense...
/.ers habitually slam Microsoft for including components in the OS that aren't a core function, and yet aren't optional (ie IE). Yet here is Microsoft removing the JRE from the OS ('unbundling', if you will), leaving you free to install any version from any vendor, and everyone is complaining about it. You can't have it both ways, guys...
/.ers support - you only have to install what _you_ want, not what the OS vendor wants - but everyone here is complaining about it. It seems to me that the consistency of arguments on /., such as it is, goes out the window when a chance to bash Microsoft appears...
Second,
Finally, isn't this how Microsoft's much-hyped new OEM licensing should work? While I admit it's a bit of a sop to the antitrust lobby rather than a serious concession, surely removing Java is completely in line with this? By removing Java, OEMs who believe there is a market for a PC with Windows 2000/XP and Java are free to include the JRE.
All in all, this is something that's more in line with the philosophy that
They (Microsoft) are aggravating their loyal developer base as well. I attended last year's (7/2000) Microsoft PDC (Professional Developer's Conference) where the .NET "initiative" was rolled-out. It soon became obvious that Java was a non-starter in the .NET vision of the future. "What about Java?" questions were pretty much ignored by the Microsoft presenters, and the tone of the questions got more and more heated as the conference progressed. One person asked during a C# (C-sharp) presentation, "Isn't this Microsoft Java?", which obviously angered the presenter.
Remember, most of these folks are die-hard Microsoft developers, who have been using MS J++ to develop enterprise applications (and yes, applets). I think Microsoft hopes that in a couple of years, everybody will be using C# and this whole Java thing will have been a bad dream. The most recent move of not including the JRE is no surprise, considering this strategy. Next will be not making it available from Microsoft at all.
Of course, Sun could have won the day by announcing during the conference that they were releasing Java to a standards committee, but that was just wishful thinking. I imagine that Cold Fusion will be the next target, XP somehow causing CF pages to be mysteriously broken or a "security risk" (hint: Use ASP+ instead).
I'm not a big Microsoft "conspirist". Frankly, a conspiracy implies some sort of subterfuge or cleverness in my opinion. Microsoft is far too heavy-handed to rate that title. They're just bullies, nothing more.
Smilodon
V V
As has been pointed out before, Opera and Netscape and other browsers have been crying in their milk for years about the level of IE integration, when they could have been doing something about it.
Internet Explorer is two parts: a bundle of COM objects that adhere to a public and fixed com interface, and a bundle of glue that uses those COM objects together to make it a single application.
Netscape could have implemented these same COM interfaces, and have gotten at least half of the integration that IE did. By depending on the APIs, Microsoft would have likely cleaned it up to allow more seamless replacement, as they have cleaned up DirectX about eight times.
But no, Netscape sued Microsoft (oh, wait, Netscape asked the Feds to sue Microsoft), so of course the IE COM interfaces are still a little rough and incomplete.
Remember when Lotus bitched and moaned about how it was impossible to write a "real" program on Windows, because their 1-2-3W version 1.0 sucked bigtime? Remember how Philippe Kahn, hardly the friend of Redmond, told him to shut up because he didn't know what he was talking about?
Obligatory Slashdot Disclaimer: yes, Microsoft is vicious, ruthless, and large. It is exactly for these reasons that they often lose in court, and in many cases, they deserve to lose. I don't work for them, nor do I care what OS is monopolistic in ten years.
Don't win by litigation, win by quality products. Netscape, Adobe, Sun, they may win little battles with the help of a judge. You're not going to win a court war against a multi-billion-per-quarter revenue machine. You're going to win a war by making Microsoft irrelevant, one market at a time. But Microsoft is more vulnerable if you just write better code and use every interface they expose to integrate and replace their features.
[
FWIW, my roomate bought a comp from eMachines about 6 months ago. Imagine my surprise when I saw him using StarOffice on it because it came bundled. He never complained about it at all (aside from speed, which is more a severe lack of RAM problem than anything) because it is a perfectly viable alternative to MS Office. I hope it does start to be a bundled option for a lot of OEMs. "Don't want to pay for MS Office? Here's Star instead." It's certainly ready for it.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
OEMs should dump MS altogether. A preconfigured Red Hat box is no more difficult to operate than a preconfigured MS box. Bundled up with something like Star Office, even the pointiest haired boss would appreciate it. With 5% of all desktops, linux is as mainstream as Apple. A few of these boxes on display at CompUSA and on sale at Dell would end all of this Monopoly liscence and compatibility BS forever.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There, see, you said it not me.
Java was not part of MS OS like IE was because you could remove java and still work your computer. Remember the comingiling article you saw on Slashdot today? Ever tried to run an MS poluted PC without Exploder? It works just a little worse than one with Exploder.
Don't worry too much, there is no new microsoft. No one who uses MS or writes code for MS is free.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Sun creates a cross platform language called Java.
Microsoft does not like cross platform becouse it != WIndows!
Microsoft "supports" Java becouse people want it and it's a buzz term that gets press.
Microsoft's version of Java is left incomplete, slow, and broken.
Users blame Java and Sun for how much Microsofts Java sucks.
Microsoft removes it's broken software from Windows siting "Security Concerns".
Users don't care becuse "Java sucks anyway"
Microsoft crushes a another competitor.
Yeah. Boy, I'm sure glad MS did the "right thing" because no one enjoys "webpages with Java"
Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
Or am I thinking of the old 'Activator'?
Corollary to Moore's Law: The IQ of new computer owners is declining.
The JRE is about as stone simple as you can get in terms of installation[1]. They don't need to understand jack squat about how the JVM works as long as the person making the disk image can click through a few dialog boxes to install it. Analogy: do you understand how a glow plug works? Can you drive a car with a diesel engine?
Besides, don't you think Sun or IBM would jump all over themselves providing technical info to OEMs willing to try this with their JREs?
Regarding Microsoft support of OEM installations (either of MS products or otherwise): hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaha.
thanks, I haven't laughed that way in a long time.
[1]Well, unless you're using Mozilla. But I don't see OEMs shipping a beta product as the main browser anytime soon.
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
What's being asked is that the computer makers thoroughly test and understand the workings of the JRE being packaged. Then what? Incure the cost for this themselves? It was easy when Microsoft included the software and something broke -- microsoft tech support is more than willing to assist you with your problems.
kill_9_1
Brett Glass asks: "Why not ask manufacturers to bundle Opera? It comes with the latest JRE."
Like it or not, Opera really isn't a maintstream browser. If the PC is shipped with anything other than Explorer, the PC maker is going to have to deal with the expense of a lot more tech. support calls from people asking what happened to Explorer.
Java support, on the other hand, just makes thing work that wouldn't have, and doesn't change the rest (except for taking up 0.05% of the hard drive space). If somebody hits a web site that tells them they need Java, and they have to download it over a dial-up, they're going to be mad at the PC maker for giving them an incomplete system. Since it's free, on top of all that, there's really no reason for any PC maker not to include a JRE.
I think Microsoft has just given themselves a black eye for no good reason here. They get another round of bad PR, but Java support will still be put on the PC's by Dell, GateWay, Micron, IBM, etc., plus AOL.
If its good anouth most people would even have to get MS Office and could put a big dent in MS sales.
Just saying it like it are.
Cheers... .*shrc is
--
$HOME is where the
$HOME is where the
-- silver_p
This entire line of reasoning is ridiculous. You can still download the JDK and JRE for free. You can buy Java IDEs from a number of vendors. If you want Java on your computer, its easily achievable. Hell, if we are going to insist on OEMs putting a language toolkit on every computer (why you would do this is beyond me), at least make it an open language.
Sorta like the gimmick .99 cents added to the end of any price on sale items.
First, I think you meant the gimmick 99 cents, or .99 dollars. I'm not trying to give you a hard time; it's just a pet peeve of mine. Next, it's really more like a gimmick 1 cent that's subtracted. Psychological studies have shown that when dealing with numbers, most people don't want to bother with more than a couple of digits of precision, and prefer to truncate, rather than round. Thus, a lot of people see "5.99" and think "5". If you're mathematically inclined, this sounds crazy, but I've seen it in action. Most of the people I know generally don't fall for this, except with gasoline prices. They see "1.379" and think (and say) "1.37".
All Sun needs is an auto update tool that gets run every month or week to let you now when a new version is out. Every other little tray icon application does something like that, so no reason Sun can't include a little something that does the same.
On the other hand, you have Java apps that might work with 1.1 and not with 1.4. Having end users casually perform upgrades may not be something developers want, which could cause more headaches than its worth. Updating the JRE could be left to individual developers and as long as its in a common place (C:\jdk, C:\jre, etc) they won't need to duplicate work.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
The Internet is unfortunately full of applets that suck. What I meant by Javascript not going anywhere was that it is an example of something has been standard and you don't see it disappearing because there is no war over it...it was just accepted. Bad choice for an example, I should have chosen something without the word Java in it so that you guys wouldn't have been reminded of the newbie "is Javascript the same as Java" questions.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
It also means the person taking the money has to open the till for change. Makes it harder for a shop assistant to simply pocket the money.
Consumers do have some influence when OEM'S make corporate decisions but ultimately Microsoft is their main customer for keeping them in bussiness and giving them money. Each OEM is begging Microsoft to be the first on the block to have windowsXP pre-installed because if they are not the first, then consumers will pick a competitor.
MS office became standard because oem's wanted cheaper prices for dos/windows 3.1. Microsoft holds all the keys for software distribution sadly enough. If I were Michael Dell, I would make sure no computer would come with java at all. I would email Gates about the java issue and hope for a discount. If I could get a %10 price decrese I could make alot more money in such tight economic times. This is really sad and is proof that Microsoft is really a monopoly. Why do you think HP and Dell do not even advertise desktops with linux pre-installed outside of linux tradeshows? Also Sun's staroffice is free. WHy are no OEMs acknowledging its existance? It costs them nothing? The answer is it just might anger MS.
Compaq killed alpha and refused to benchmark alpha vs pentiumIII running NT because they might anger intel. So they killed it and now can recieve greater profits by having lower intel prices.
If I were Michael Dell and if the Microsoft's OEM LEGAL AGREEMENT did not have a clause on not installing sun's java on all pc's, I would still not install it. Even for free. It makes good bussiness sense but it means bad news for consumers and sun.
http://saveie6.com/
The JDK is arguably an installation of the Java language. The JRE is just a virtual machine. Some of us like to have it around in order to run the same compiled Scheme code on Linux and Windows.
There's one consistent philosophy that all /.ers support? Could somebody write it up and put it on a web page? How am I supposed to know what to think if nobody tells me?
Other Java proponents have asked Hemos to include the latest Java JRE link in his /. posts.
In fact, Mac IE doesn't have a JVM at all. It just interfaces to Apple's virtual machine.
Of course, the result is that it gets better Java support than (Mac) Netscape. How odd. ;)
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
I think Microsoft has just given themselves a black eye for no good reason here.
According to the settlement with SUN a little while back, M$ is not allowed to update any of their existing Java JVM technology, only to use what they wrote a few years ago. Under these conditions it seems reasonable that they do not want to include these old (incompatible?) DLL files with the new OS.
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~~ the real world is much simpler ~~
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
And afaik IE5.01 and 5.5 as a standard install don't install the JVM either but will prompt you with the option to download it if needed.
I doubt this will affect Java much - considering it seems to be moving into the embedded space in any case =).
--
Jon - TheSpork
From the article:
What if I said the best thing that could happen to all of us is a complete backoff of all the bundling beyond what's specified in the W3C definition of the Web. Take Flash out. Take Java out...
Are we sure that we're just talking about the web here? The JRE gives the ability to run both applets in browser and normal Java apps... and it's not like there's a shortage of those
reech bee-yond ur clip-0n
You make some good points. I would tend to disagree on the whole Swing performance issue, though. True, Swing is piggy in its cycle consumption, but this is being offset by beefier hardware to the point where I'm not sure I care about this too much anymore. At my company (large N.A. bank) we run quite a number of Java client apps (e.g. a call center desktop) and performance is fine.
Anyways, the real point of my note is regarding the demise of JavaOS. I happened to be working with IBM labs at the time IBM had pitched in to bring JavaOS to market. The reason JavaOS died (according to my peers at IBM) were:
Of course, there were likely other political intrigues here...
CrazyLegs
"Pork!!" said the Fish, and we all laughed.
"This is a move with little or no cost for the OEMs but tremendous potential benefits for their customers."
.99 cents added to the end of any price on sale items.
If you have not noticed the news on the sales of new computers being very low as of late then it might suprise you that OEMs will do anything to cut costs and unless there is a huge public outcry they will not bother with it. Some might just do it to make it seem like they are adding features that others do not. Sorta like the gimmick
Which actually brings up another problem. Which JRE will be distributed as the standard? How often will users need to update the runtimes?
Dancin Santa
- Flash
- Acrobat
- Quicktime
etc. All it means is that you have to use the Java Plug-in tag syntax instead of the tag and make sure your applet is good enough to make people want to download and install the plugin. It's not a really big deal.For example, visit one of the Java plug-in demos and see how easy it is to install the silly thing.
[Hm, having done just that, it's not quite as easy as Flash, but oh well. Maybe Sun will wise up.]
Instead of just making a statement like this, could you provide a little more information? Why would it cost another $50 per license? Are you referring to labor for including the JRE in the image? Some sort of hidden license fee that nobody knows about? Some sort of evil action you expect M$ to take in response?
GreyPoopon
--
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
Name one other VM language that has been, up to this point, included with every mainstream browser install. That's where the loss is. I honestly don't care whether or not all browsers come with Java. But I can write currently write applets that will work on almost any browser since V 3.0 of Netscape and Internet Explorer. And it'll even work on Opera.
Having a JRE available as an option works fine if the browser will always be downloaded in the first place. But users who can download and install a new browser aren't the ones I worry about. It's those that buy their computer with Windows pre-installed and don't know how to really change anything. If I design web pages with java applets, I want to be sure that pretty much anybody can see them. (with the obvious exception of Lynx users)
Like I said, I don't care WHAT the language is, but it needs to have most of the same capabilities as Java. And it needs to be multi-platform, multi-browser capable. Oh, and it needs to ALREADY be installed and running on the older browsers. Let me know when you figure out how to solve that problem.
GreyPoopon
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GreyPoopon
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Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
From my point of view, as a full time Java developer, this is more of a blessing than a curse.
.NET strategy.
When developing applets for clients I will no longer need to explain to them that IE has a JVM that is 5 years old and that they need to download a new one - I simple have say, visit Sun and get the latest JVM.
This is what I have to do when developing an application and people seem fairly happy with that.
I just really hope that this move doesn't convince good Java developers to switch to C#... there really is no need unless you want to stick with MS
I think O'Reilly has the right idea though - have OEMs include the latest JRE on any machines they distribute - that way customers will have a reasonable up to date runtime which they can use as they see fit.
Pete
Right. So I can ruin an already fragile (yet functioning) Windows XP with even more restriction-bashing code. Give me a break.
These are the same people who argue against bloat by MS, but when it's bloat by a 3rd-party company (other than AOL), and it might wreck even further hell on the system's stability, they're all for it.
Why don't we throw g++ in there, while we're at it? And Perl? Let's fill the whole hard drive with interpreters and engines.
There's a reason why MS is even honoring the notion that they can drop Java, and it isn't just the war between Sun and itself. So few sites use Java nowadays that most Windows users never touch it. If it were a different story (like the AOL debacle) MS would be more or less forced to provide it because of the sheer numbers.
Face it. The war is over. Java was a great academic language, and it's "fun" to code in, but it's not going to take over c++ on the desktop and HTML on the web anytime soon.
For all practical purposes, 1.3 is the latest. There was a maintenance release just recently put out - 1.3.1. Also released was 1.4 beta, with gold master expected in November.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Excactly why I hope this non-bundling of a bad JRE from microsoft will be good. If, big if, OEMs decide to bundle modern 1.3 or 1.4 JREs. Some developers might consider the 100% java application more seriously. Since Mac should have a decent JRE with OSX, and Linux users are generally skilled enough to go get one, folks might be able to exploit write once, run anywhere (with a few minor changes). Of course, the moment THAT happens in a serious way, Microsoft's barrier to entry goes away and the desktop no longer belongs to them.
As a Java developer. I can't really say that I care.
First off, I don't think everyone will be running out and buying Windows XP anytime soon. Why? Because it really is unnecessary for most. The expenditure isn't justified.
Lastly, I do agree with the person who said that its a matter of choice. If the JRE is needed to be installed, then it can be downloaded and installed. That's it.
Forcing a company to include anything in their distros really violates the very priniciples that most "freedom in software" people (including myself) uphold.
Trust me, people. Microsoft is going to dig their own grave... soon enough. Just a matter of time.
If Microsoft is letting the OEMs put custom software on the PCs, will they also allow having Linux pre-installed?
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