Slashdot Mirror
EFF Gets Meeting With Adobe
h-=-
Congratulations folks!
The pressure we all have put on Adobe has resulted in an agreement to meet with representatives from the Electronic Frontier Foundation on this Monday morning, July 23.
For that reason, EFF has decided to:
PUT THE JULY 23 PROTEST ON HOLD
Please help us act in good faith and postpone the protest until we have a chance to negotiate with Adobe.
Of course, we can always rekindle the protest if Adobe does not agree to withdraw their complaint to the US Department of Justice regarding Dmitry Sklyarov and to refuse to pursue further prosecutions under the DMCA for cases that should be prevented under fair use provisions of US copyright law.
And also, if the US Attorney's office insists on prosecuting Dmitry without a current complaint from Adobe, then we will continue protests directed at them rather than at Adobe.
If you still feel that you have to protest on Monday, you are of course free to do so. However, it may be a more effective use of our collective energies to act in a coordinated way to get Dmitry out of jail.
I am writing a media release to this effect as soon as I sent this email to you... wanted you all to know first.
Free Dmitry,
Will Doherty
Online Activist / Media Relations
Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF)
Web http://www.eff.org
Good to know that they've managed to talk to Adobe sensibly about this. Hopefully the DMCA will be exposed for the damn fool thing that it is.
I am in total agreement with your sentiment: Screw Adobe!
Also, it needs to be noted in big bold letters for all to see, Dmitry Sklyarov did not break the law, his company, ElcomSoft Co. Ltd., did. Sklyarov is the person who wrote and programmed the software for his company (with the work of other employees). The company went on to sell and distribute the software. The sale and distribution is the only thing criminal under (Constitutionally-untested) U.S. law (the DMCA). This arrest was illegal.
Get the word out. Let the world know. The FBI has committed another one of its world-class blunders. They got the wrong man.
Putting it on hold without a schedule has the risk of losing momentum for several reasons: 1. Miss a weekend for preparation. 2. Some protests still hold on Monday but with smaller turnout. 3. Adobe might use a delay tactic repeatedly. 4. Those that show up on Monday are less likely to show up again in the same week.
It would be wiser to postpone the protest to Tuesday, same time, same place. This allows several day's preparation and media coverage. It puts pressure on Adobe, as it will not be cancelled unless the Monday dialog turns out to be completely satisfactory.
Oh yeah? This message is protected by ROT26 encryption. Simply reading it is a violation of the DMCA. It's not my fault my encryption is weak. It's your fault for being able to break it.
There's a world of difference between 'on hold' and 'cancelled'. Please fix the headline, Hemos. Protest also needs a 't' ;-).
DO NOT CANCEL THE PROTESTS!
What good is adobe going to do, they have 0 legal jurisdiction over getting Dmitry out of jail.
This just goes to show that Adobe is afraid of the bad press.
Adobe is going to welcome the EFF team, blow smoke up their asses for half of an hour and show them the door.
DO NOT CANCEL THE PROTEST, once you stop this momentum you will not regain it.
Maybe attention should be focused on the FBI, DOJ, and Congress for passing such a farcical law.
Just who are EFF working for anyhow?
Does anyone at EFF care to disclose just how much Adobe Donates to them anually?
anonymous hero
--
This message secured by Quadruple Rot-56 encryption technology.
Unauthorized decryption prohibited under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.
Violators will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
*snicker*
That is not the point, and he's not being imprisoned for that. He's being imprisoned for violating the DMCA by circumventing an access mechanism.
I don't CARE how much of a scumbag the guy actually is- let him go and then arrest him again for being a spammer-helper if you consider that a more serious crime. The point is that he's being imprisoned for something that is not justifiable.
Hell, man, I write open source digital audio software. One type of thing you can put into digital audio software is 'declicking', which is a perfectly normal operation that can be used to snuff out intermittent noise or record surface noise. Now, the RIAA labels are introducing a type of distortion into CDs intending that the CD players interpolate past this noise. That makes it, in that context, an access control mechanism.
Are you seriously suggesting that it should be possible for some RIAA clown to have me dragged off in CHAINS for producing and supplying something that just happens to be able to circumvent an imaginary boundary they put up?
Supposing someone uses ROT13 as an access control mechanism. If I write a de-ROT13er, does THAT justify my being hauled off and arrested?
A man is IN JAIL now over this sort of circumventing. This is not a joke! I don't care how many spammers he's assisted, or how much he made. I report spammers to spamcop and release my work as GPLed free software, and buddy? I'm next.
Re-think your attitude, please. You are not being helpful, and as near as I can tell, it's me, not you, next in line to be dragged off in chains. Easy for YOU to shrug it off- this time!
Broke US law? How? The company he works for might have broken the law, and even that is a big maybe. But how did Dimitri break US law? He wrote the program in Russia where he isn't subject to US law. He only talked about it here. How does that make him a criminal?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Don't send a Russian to do an American's job. If anyone has to stand trial to help us rid ourselves of this onerous law, it should be an American citizen. As far as I'm concerned, we should do whatever is necessary to get Dimitri out of jail and back home to his family as soon as possible.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
"He" didn't sell the software anywhere. The company he works for did. Why was he arrested? Even if they had reason to arrest someone, why was he the only one arrested? Why not the company CEO who was also there?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
There are five ways of attacking with fire.
Have fun at the rally, kids!
Opinions are mine only and could change without notice.
Obama 2012: our incompetent asshole is slightly less of an incompetent asshole than the other incompetent asshole !
Of course: after all Hitler had strong support among Germans. He came to power legally. And that is exactly why I would never claim to love or be proud of Germany.
Obviously, the severity of fascism cannot be compared to the injustice of the DMCA, but still: DMCA was enacted following the standard practices of the US; it is what the country wanted. The legislative process is how the country chooses to express its will. If the DMCA is wrong, then something must be wrong with the country.
--
But the computer industry did not vote MS into power.
--
Even before he was elected, his views were very clear: he had laid them down in his book "Mein Kampf". It was clear that he wanted war to enlarge living space for the German race, and it was clear that he hated nobody as much as the "eternal jew". Everybody who voted for Hitler is personally responsible for what followed.
that Congress or the Senate pass a law doesn't necessarily mean the citizens desire it.
Again, something must be wrong with the country then, no? Either the country wills a wrong law, or it accepts a system which produces a wrong law.
--
--
The country has the government it deserves.
But really, isn't the government an important part of every country? How is it possible to love something and at the same time hate an integral part of it?
--
We in the logic biz call this a Logical Fallacy.
Specifically, it's an Appeal to Force.
Fun.
"We have the right to believe at our own risk any hypothesis that is live enough to tempt our will."
http://gabrielcain.com/
The EFF is staffed by some pretty canny people, so I wouldn't think they would be fooled too easily. But this sounds like a sop being thrown out by Adobe to quiet things down until attention moves elsewhere, after which the process will start up again.
sPh
I think over the weekend, everyone should do up signs and pick a retailer to stand in front of to tell people to boycott Adobe products. Also to protest their actions in having this man arrested.
This way the average Joe will hear about this before it gets spun in the Sunday papers, and it might get national coverage from our point of view and not Adobe's.
Adobe has no authority or ability to get Sklyarov out of prison. He is charged with a crime, charged by the United States, and Adobe has no say in whether or not he goes to prison for it. The U.S. can order Adobe to testify at trial and Adobe cannot refuse.
It's silly to cancel the protest. Adobe could beg the U.S. Attorney to release Sklyarov and nothing would happen. Sklyarov has now been strip-searched a dozen times or more as he is schlepped between various facilities. He's in prison, facing five years behind bars with no possibility of parole (because he would be deemed a flight risk if paroled, obviously).
Protest on.
Many or most of these protests were organized by volunteers independent of the EFF. The EFF announced the protests to be postponed without consulting any of the people who had put much time and effort into this. They don't speak for everyone!
The protests have a lot of momentum behind them. What did the EFF get in exchange for cancelling them? Agreeing to talks? There's no guarantee that anything will change. EFF has been tricked by Adboe PR.
Yeah, especially if you had some guy thrown in jail while you were on vacation. You know what? You SUCK!
Hi, I'm Don Marti, main contact person for the San Jose event.
We will be meeting as planned at the snake sculpture, in downtown San Jose at the corner of S. Market St. and W. San Carlos St., at 11:00 AM.
From there we can march on Adobe or go home as the situation requires.
I would put a Sun Tsu quote here but I am pretty busy right about now.
I am an EFF member. However, this is not the EFF's protest, and it will go on. With or without them.
The vast majority of participants on the free-sklyarov list, including the people running boycottadobe.com and the organizers of several of the protests, are determined that there will be protests on Monday regardless of this latest PR action by Adobe.
We have no evidence that Adobe is willing to do anything except share a cup of coffee and say "sorry, nothing we can do". The fact that they're trying to make EFF discourage protests as a precondition for talks, and making no commitments in advance, does not speak well for their good intentions. The EFF is not necessarily making a mistake by pulling out in order to get them at the table, but there is no reason for the rest of us to stay quiet.
I'd guess it's pretty important to him. If the rafter dude doesn't think that's important, maybe that's the problem, and maybe he ought to stew in jail for a while far away from home.
--
Infuriate left and right
this went a bit under the media radar in usa, but here's a link- 27-worldcourt.htm
....
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/june01/2001-06
i'm sure it's not as relevant as i'd like it to be; however, the main point was that usa did not go quite the legal way in detaining and executing citizens of another country. thus they were put in front of the world court, and they lost. you'd figure they'd start to learn quicker
--- d'oh
If you're actually following the free-sklyarov list, you'll note that person after person has been writing to reject the idea of putting off the protests. If that's any indication, then they will go on as planned, though perhaps without the EFF. I can understand why the EFF chose to ask for the postponement, though I bet they're secretly hoping the protests will occur anyway.
--Jim
I prefer to think of it as the second time in a week Adobe has stepped way across the line and gotten called on it. Looks like a pattern.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
No, they didn't. Protests were already being discussed on the free-sklyarov list before EFF showed its face. EFF may have thrown their support behind the protests, but they were not the initiators.
If mr Sklyarov is simply released, and the case dropped, this will not help the cause of Anti-DMCA supporters. If he is put on trial as planned, and found innocent (or in any case, that he was grossly mistreated and that PRISON time is not an option), then the ANTI-DMCA case will be strengthened and we'll be that much closer to having DMCA abolished.
I agree that the treatment of Sklyarov has been horrible and unjust, but we need the caselaw to support his cause and ours.
I like music
How come everyone is acting like there's some unified front against Adobe? Dmitri's arrest stems from the fact he was selling the PDF cracking tool he made. It isn't purely research if you fucking sell it. That's called trafficing. Which is why he was arrested. I suggest instead of protesting Adobe we take the time to thank Elcomsoft for their e-mail extraction software which keeps most of you from using a real e-mail address on slashdot posts. I had a pretty amusing time reading about the mailing list and protest plans that popped up. Protest and bitch for the right reasons, don't think just because a guy was arrested in relation to the DMCA that he must be innocent. At least the EFF in general is smarter than slashdot.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
I hear you. I feel the same way. :(
What is important in this is NOT "why did they do it", but the distinction that "EFF is saying its postponed, but the masses have already said otherwise."
Most of us feel that this is proof positive that the effectiveness of the protests is working, and that they must continue to operate under a deadline of Monday.
EFF folks were quoted as saying that (paraphrased) "Adobe couldn't get the right people in the room" over the weekend. There's nowhere on the planet they couldn't get the right people into the room if they wanted to, so they obviously value "something else" (whether its a business deal or someone's tee-time) more than they value solving this dilemma they're in.
Nothing stops until that guy is on a jet in international airspace departing the US a free man.
The irony -- to DEPART the US to become a Free Man. *sigh*
Hurray! Good job, EFF. Now we just need to carry through.
While I agree it would make a great test case, there's more than one kind of precedent. Setting a LEGAL precedent using a test case is a great idea (and the EFF is working on it already, with a really perfect case!), but I'd ALSO like to set the precedent that big companies get HURT when they try this kind of stuff, and that their best bet is to back off quickly.
.. But perhaps it might be interesting to some?
http://www.lapdragon.org/~kysh/losebattle.html
-Kysh
--=:: Wings and tail and snout and scales of blackest night
It seems to mee that this meeting is pretty clearly a stalling tactic. Adobe and EFF can schedule all the meetings they want -- I'd even encourage this -- but it seems that this particular meeting (it was "granted" on the precondition that EFF call off the protest) was designed only to thwart the potentially strong movement that is growing around this man's arrest.
So, please continue to join me, and many others, in San Jose or your local planned protest.
// mlc, user 16290
--
Just last night I called Russia on the phone, and ordinary people over there know nothing about Dmitry Skliarov - nothing on TV or in newspapers. I cannot fathom why...
Having attended this meeting, I can say the Denver protesters are going to change the emphasis of the protest slightly. Because Adobe is willing to talk to the EFF, we're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, so instead of protesting Adobe, we're protesting against the DMCA at the Denver Federal Courthouse, and protesting against the FBI & the Justice Department for jailing Sklyarov for violating the DMCA.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Sure, you have the right to march where and when you're told, or you have the right to receive punishment beatings and chemical weapon torture from masked jackbooted thugs.
So, Uh, I guess in your odd world, throwing rocks and looting stores should be congratulated?
Gimme a break, you're pretty stupid if you want to 'force a confrontation' with armed police and then cry when you get your ASS kicked.
It is pretty sad watching /.ers get their panties all twisted in knots. Yeah, let's go burn something! Woohoo! Businessmen and politicians will definitely listen to us then!
Why is it that the people who say that the military/FBI/law enforcement are evil, are the first knuckleheads to start tossing rocks?
The way the lunatic fringe (why was that modded as funny anyway?) acts, you'd think they enjoyed getting their ASSes kicked by law enforcement so they can cry about it later.
You get what you ask for, that much is obvious.
I'm not defending Saddam Husein's use of violence against his own citizens and the invasion of Kuwait, but punishing Iraqi citizens for the crimes of Iraq's leader and military is hardly reasonable. We are in effect saying, "We'll keep murdering your citizens until you stop murdering your citizens."
I can't consider this to be a truly free country when our leaders routinely break international law, won't support the one organization created to allow all the world's countries to settle their differences peacably, and won't accept responsibility for their own actions. If I went on a killing spree or stopped paying taxes, I'd be arrested and thrown in jail. Why don't we hold our leaders to the same standards?
Peace PatientZero
Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
In 1991 Iraq invades Kuwait and we step in to drive Iraq out. Fine, let's accept that too.
Shortly thereafter (1993, iirc) a group of Iraqi generals staged a coup to remove Saddam from power. It had much support from the citizens and the military. Saddam sent in planes to the Southern region where the revolt was taking place. The generals asked for our support. We denied them. After the planes wiped out the resistance, we expressed horror that the planes actually attacked the resistence. We claimed we thought they were just going to investigate. We're stretching it here, but let's accept that.
After the initial fighting, we initiated a ten-year plan of sanctions. Our reason was that we wanted U.N. inspectors inside the country to find and dismantle any factories producing weapons of mass destruction. Every so often we'd be a little more insistant by bombing them, but I'm sure we stuck to military targets.
So finally Saddam gave in to our demands and weapons inspectors were allowed in, and they found and removed lots of weapons and factories. Okay, so it's all over, right? No, we wanted to start bombing again in 1998. The U.N. pointed out that this would end the inspections, which was the sole purpose of sanctions. There was much protest, and the U.S. backed down. However, the U.N. also ruled that the sanctions were over -- that we should not reenact them after the initial ten-year period.
Why? The U.N. found that it was civilians that were suffering -- not the military or Saddam. We denied them food, clothing, pencils (because you can take out the grafite and make weapons), medicine. Oh, but we started a program to trade food for oil out of kindness.
Anyway, so the U.N. passes a resolution, making it international law, and the U.S. says, "Oh that's nice, but we don't care." And the sanctions continued. The U.S. was willing to break international law to kill civilians, but it wouldn't do so earlier to save civilians.
Well over 1.5 million people have died so far. 4,500 children die each month. What's our demand? That Saddam allow inspectors.
But he DID allow inspectors!
So now he has no options. He gave in to our demands yet we continue punishing his people. Again, Saddam has done some decidely nastly shit, but the U.S. government has done far more in many countries the world over than Saddam could possibly do.
Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Cuba, Brazil, Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico, Indonesia, East Timor, Philipines, most of Africa. How many nations do we have to terrorize before someone stops us? Do you realize most of the world sees the U.S. as an insane rogue state that must be stopped? Some point very soon someone's going to take the fall for the world and nuke us.
But apparently all is okay because we're following the "American" dream of profit over all else. I'm a U.S. citizen, but that's hardly my dream.
Note, I'm not saying this country is worthless. There are some very important values in our history. However, the apple-pie ideal that is put forth in the media is a farce. We have the world's biggest and most effective propoganda and indoctrination systems. So good in fact that most people believe that we don't have them -- that democracies don't need them.
Peace PatientZero
Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
Suppose you left your family to travel to another country, then were arrested by the federal police of that country, thrown in jail and denied bail.
Now suppose there was a chance that the charges could be dropped.
Would you sit in your cell and say "No!, I must help the people of this fine country fight a stupid law that thier elected officials created"?
Or would you put your hands together and pray "God please get me the hell out of this sh*thole country!"
The EFF is doing what is best for Dmitry...
Better to help a concerned American (like Prof. Felten) bear the burden of fighting the DMCA.
Jonathan Weesner
How is threatening to sue people for money they don't have, and getting people in jail 'rational thought'?
Getting someone arrested over breaking your l33t-ass 'rot-13' encryption is not the pinnacle of rational thought. Just because Adobe backs down doesn't make them bad guys.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I would say that Slashdot just made a mistake. But... There's another POV:
/. their voice.
/. made a slight mistake in word usage (given their overall poor grammar, this is no surprise). But it can also be viewed as one member of one of the parts of the movement trying to cool down some hot heads. Unfortunately, rather than people listening to protesters, they are beating the shit out of them, and making efforts to conduct their meetings and so forth without an opportunity for protest at all. (The virtual WTO summit ideas, ie)
Slashdot and EFF are the 'legitimate' and publicly accepted arms of the lunatic fringe. The people organizing the protest are the armed combatants and the nuts who give the EFF and
I might be looking at getting a serious down-modding, but it seems similar to the Sin Fein (sorry for butchering the spelling) and the IRA. Or similar splits amongst various Muslim groups.
One group comes to the table and talks. The other group beats on the windows and burns cars outside.
I find myself a fence-sitter. I was prepared to take off of work Monday had their been a protest in Wash. DC or Richmond, but I might very well have backed down.
My real concern is that the Monday protest would have likely gathered numbers due to the emotions involved. By delaying it, even if only for a few days, emotions will cool (especially other fencesitters, as well as those in the totally rational front) and the turnout will likely be less. The upshot is that more time=more chance to get the word out.
So, without playing devil's advocate: I think
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
The problem faced by these various companies' (Adobe included) is they've staked their business model on laws enacted which soon will be ruled to infringe on First Amendment rights, and encroach on your rights of fair-use.
:)
I think I smell a flurry of shareholder lawsuits.
mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*
mefus
In Open Society, GPL Software frees YOU!
Isn't that why the EFF is pursuing the Felten case?
But the computer industry did not vote MS into power.
Technically, you're correct, since there are no explicit elections for "evil bastard" per se. But quite a few members of the computer industry voluntarily work for Microsoft and even more develop products that run on, work with, fix up or otherwise use Microsoft products.
If the majority of voters in the US really wanted to "thow the bums out" at any cost, it could be done. Similarly, if every geek in the industry really wanted to kill M$ at any cost, it could be done.
- bridgette
Not that I like the idea of making a martyr, especially one with a family to support.
Clinton's asprin fiasco don't hold a candle to murdering 100,000 iraqies by bush (not to mention panamenians).
War is necrophilia.
Doesn't the FBI have a duty to see weather or not a crime has actually been committed? I have tried to find a crime in this case but I can't.
War is necrophilia.
HE DID NOT BREAK ANY LAW. I'll say it again HE DID NOT BREAK ANY LAW. Maybe the company he works for did (not!) but you can't just arrest employees of criminal companies can you?
Now wait a minute MS is found guilty of crimes and lots of people work for MS. WOW let's arrest them all!
War is necrophilia.
For future reference to all Americans.
The proper response to
"This is the FBI, we have you surrounded, Come out with your hands up"
is MOST DEFINATELY NOT
"come and get me mutherfuckers I have guns and am not afraid to use them"
especially if your wife and kid are in the house.
BTW hiding behind his wife and kids was a cowardly act. He should have let them go and faced the FBI alone like a real man at least he would have died a defiant death. Instead he spends his days whining about the evil "guvmit" and the "god-damned niggers and jews".
War is necrophilia.
Intruding actual facts into the wooly cottonbrains of an american sheep hanging out at slashdot will get you modded down. Dontcha know that by now?
War is necrophilia.
His son was not shot because of what he believed. Like I said if your response to "come out with your hand up" is "fuck you motherfuckers come get me" you should expect to die. Too bad he did not have the balls to send his wife and kid out and face the govt by hinself. He hid behind his wife and kids, told the govt to come and get him, and now whines that his kid got shot. Well duh!. That's what happens to cowards who use their wife and kids as shields.
Nelson Mandela got jailed for decades and tortured for his beliefs but he came out to lead his country. Randy Weaver would not made it a day in a south African Prison we would have broken like a cracker because he is a coward and spineless whiner.
If you are not willing to be arrested for your beliefs, jailed for your beliefs or die for your beliefs then shut the fuck up.
War is necrophilia.
Your description of the events are way off base. Even the very biased Amnesty report states
"In 1995 the government paid $3.1m in settlement of a wrongful death claim to the family of a white separatist whose wife and son were shot dead by FBI sharpshooters during a siege in Idaho in 1992"
Notice the word "siege". The FBI agent didn't just walk up to them and shoot them without talking to them. It was a protracted "siege" anytime during which Randy could have...
a) Sent his wife and kids out.
b) surrendered
c) Shot himself (and perhaps his family too)
d) Come out firing taking out a few evil FBI agents and dying in a blaze of glory.
Instead he chose to basically hold his wife and kid hostage. He knew that the FBI would not charge in if women and children were in the house. The fact remains.
He was not willing to be arrested for his beliefs.
He was not willing to be jailed for his beliefs.
He was not willing to die for his beliefs.
He is only willing to whine about his beliefs to the right wing fanatics on talk radio.
War is necrophilia.
- Strip searches.
- No possibility of parole
- Prison conditions
If you actually knew a damn thing about the way the system works, you'd have already known that the two things you're harping about aren't problems at all, and the biggest problem Dmitry faces (if convicted) is one that you were totally ignorant of.While body-cavity searches are sometimes necessary for the safety of the wardens and other prisoners, the Supreme Court has recognized that it's extraordinarily demeaning conduct. Dmitry is, as of this moment, an innocent man. The jailers are aware of that, as is the US Attorney, as is Dmitry's attorney, as is everyone else.
Convicts lose a great deal of their civil liberties. Innocent people, infinitely less so. Jail isn't pleasant, but it's a helluva lot more pleasant to be a presumed-innocent individual awaiting trial than a convict.
Ever since sentencing reform in the early '80s ('84, I think), there has been no parole anywhere in the Federal system. When you get convicted of a Federal offense, such as the DMCA, you don't get parole. If the judge says you do five years, well, guess what--you do five years.
Since Dmitry is a nonviolent offender, he would be a prime candidate for Club Fed treatment (minimum security facility, perks, etc.). However, there's a Bureau of Prisons directive in effect which says that BuPris considers all aliens to be flight risks. As such, BuPris categorically refuses to house aliens in minimum-security facilities. Real prison, real time, real lockup, alongside real serious offenders.
No, I'm not a lawyer. I'm a guy who does his research. I'd hope that Slashdot's editorial staff would do theirs, too.
He's a frigging citizen of another country, and the software he wrote is not bound by the DMCA. IANAL, but it seems to me that the FBI has gotten themselves in a ton of hot water.
My question is, why hasn't the Russian Consulate raised a stink about this? Or, have they, and the DOJ is keeping it all hush hush?
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
Through chance, one of my old coworkers was an ex-FBI agent who had been investigating Phil Zimmerman over the PGP case. This lead to a really interesting conversation about the moral issues of the law and the case and technology in general (to include observations of how child molesters - an area she later became involved with - used PGP to hide evidense). I was intersted in her view and she was rather suprised and interested in the opinions and ideas the community had on the case.
One of the final statements in the conversation was that, no matter where the moral issues were, the law was the law. Phil had broken it and the agents HAD him. She was actually a bit disappointed the case hadn't gone forward.
I go around the school yard and threaten to beat up little kids unless they do what I want. By this rational, I'm not a bully until I actually hit someone. The agreement that the little kid gives me their milk money and in turn I won't put my fist in to their face - well, that's just rational thought.
Are you saying what I think you are saying?
That Dimitri was the "clean room" RE specialist for developing the software for Elcomsoft?
Under the DMCA, one is supposed to be allowed to reverse engineer, provided it is done in "clean room" fashion (ie, where there is a third party that describes how the device works to the party doing the building of the workalike device - such that those doing the developing never come into contact with the original device - thus "clean").
What the hell is going on here? Is this true - or am I reading something into this here due to the broken english (nothing against you or anyone else whose first language isn't english, mind you - I just don't know if I am reading this correctly)...
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
In fact many on the free-sklyarov list are still planning to protest. Stay tuned.
>She was actually a bit disappointed the case hadn't gone forward.
If you're still in contact with her, tell her that a least one guy on slashdot thinks she's a fascist bitch, and that our Republic is far better off with her out of the FBI.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It's very hard to see inside Adobe's mind because I cannot understand their motivation for prosecuting Dmitry. As I've written elsewhere, it doesn't make them any money. They may expect the EFF to be able to stop all demos. That won't happen. But the more protests that don't happen should be seen as strengthening the EFF because it will indicate their influence.
Adobe matters a great deal because if they withdraw their complaint, I would expect Dmitry to be freed very quickly. I don't think there is a fast way of getting him free.
EFF has not cancelled the protests. EFF has asked that the protests be cancelled. The majority of the community appears ready to proceed with the protests independently of the EFF.
It is extremely disempowering for Slashdot to posts a misleading "Protests Cancelled" (or proests, or however you spell it) when organizers are working so hard at this.
Interesting feedback from an Adobe exec:
From: Declan McCullagh
To: free-sklyarov@zork.net
Subject: [free-sklyarov] What Adobe says about Monday's meeting
I'm writing an article for Wired News tomorrow on this, but since it won't appear for over 12 hours, I thought I'd give you a sneak preview.
I spoke at some length just now with Holly Campbell, Adobe's senior manager for corporate PR and a very pleasant person. She confirmed the meeting would take place on Monday.
Campbell called it "a mutual frank discussion about some of these issues here. She said EFF wrote a letter to Adobe's corporate counsel that said EFF would be "happy to hold off on the protests" in exchange for a meeting. "What they did say in the letter to us is that they'll make their best efforts to discourage the protests. It sounds like they're holding up their end of the bargain," Campbell said.
I asked for a copy of the letter and she said she could not give it to me since she thought it might be "privileged."
I asked her if there's a chance the meeting will lead to Adobe withdrawing their complaint against Sklyarov. She replied: "I have no idea. On that I couldn't comment, nor would I even if I knew the answer. The purpose of the discussions on Monday are just to have a frank discussion of what the current issues are."
-Declan
I do not agree with Will's reasoning, but here is additional background information he supplied on the situation:
Adobe only agreed to meet with us if we would put the Monday, July 23 protest on hold.
We would like to believe that Adobe will be negotiating in earnest and it is not EFF's style to engage in punitive protests when there is hope of a negotiated solution.
If some folks go ahead and protest and antagonize Adobe, that may escalate the situation, preclude Adobe withdrawing their complaint, and keep Dmitry in jail.
I think should treat this as a partial victory... we have succeeded in getting to the table in a big way with Adobe! Let's use that leverage to get some concrete action. And if they don't budge, we can still protest. Those who offered the favors once hopefully did so because we have an important cause here, and will likely do so again.
I am glad to hear everyone's comments about this and look forward to working together to get Dmitry out of jail and end further unfair DMCA prosecutions.
Free Dmitry,
Will Doherty
Online Activist / Media Relations
Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF)
Web http://www.eff.org
I don't know the reasoning of the EFF, but i guess, they want to go into the talks with adobe with as much options as possible. Once the protests happened it wouldn't make much sense to protest again (many people won't go twice, and the media will most likely not cover a second protest with the same intensity as the first one). So once the protests happened, repeating them is much less of a threat. Hence holding back the protests gives the EFF much more to bargain with.
I think that's a perfectly valid way of reasoning, another is, to use the protests to heighten public awareness of the case and use the publicity of the case in the bargaining ("if you don't want any more egg on your face you better act in a sensible way now"). I think the second way of reasoning is a better longterm strategy, since adobe (and others) will then think twice before pulling similar stunts.
There is another point to consider: The protests should be organized, some protesters with noone to explain to the media, what the issue is, will do no good. What's even worse, it will, as explained, reduce the impact of future protests. Hence i think the protesters should follow the EFFs decisions, since even if the decisions are bad (and it's disputable if they are), half of a protest is worse.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
The first is to burn soldiers in their camp;
the second is to burn stores;
the third is to burn baggage trains;
the fourth is to burn arsenals and magazines;
the fifth is to hurl dropping fire amongst the enemy.
Have fun at the rally, kids!
If that isn't "flamebait" I don't know what could be a worse pun.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
slashdot is free to infer whatever they want, i think you more likely have problems with them implying the game is over.
toast (filling in as word choice nazi)
Need a Catering Connection
Now I have to boycot the EFF for being Idiots and Fools. Red Letters too.
I'm sure his Wife is pleased at your rolling over like this. Sickens me.
Clue phone for Analmouse Cowhhead....
Better get it it's for you.
God Bless Vespucciland! Put on that wide belt and tell it like in never was!
While Dimitry is certainly being treated unfairly, the criminal provisions of the DMCA cannot be thrown out as unconstitutional if it doesn't go to court.
It sounds like you are advocating keeping someone in jail while the court system figures out that what he did wasn't a crime! The only acceptable course of action is for him to be released immediately.
And for PR purposes, anything that gets him out of jail will allow us to cheer "FBI unable to enforce DMCA in Court".
It was a speech - he said stuff in public in front of people
Adobe did a bad thing, and after a few whacks with the clue stick, it may now be realizing just how bad what it did really was.
So, go ahead and hold the protests, but hold them for the people who are now mainly responsible for the problem - the DCMA-sponsoring companies and their legislator lackeys. Why is there no protest site in Washington, DC?
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
See http://freesklyarov.org/boston for more info. Many other groups will still be protesting on Monday, as well. It's rather irresponsible of Slashdot to infer that the game's over!
[
The EFF is obviously willing to fight hard and long on cases (Bernstein is what, 7 years so far?), and they really don't like the DCMA (Felten is an offensive strike, for example), so if they're trying to negotiate early on maybe there's a reason for it. Have someone go to them and find out why- perhaps it is something they can't say on the record.
I was just at their open house two weeks ago, and have known some EFF people for years: the EFF is filled with a mix of people, including many non-lawyers, now and in the past. Still, they have to have lawyers, and the lawyers will be visible, because it takes lawyers to prepare and argue cases before courts, which is how, ultimately, the DCMA (and CDA, and etc,etc.) have been or will be defeated.
Perhaps this proest will make Adobe split up their company?
Just trying to be funny.
But seriously, don't OpenSource come with a spelcheck?
And now I'm just trolling. Damn. It's too late for intelligent posts... *sigh*
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
Unfortunately it seems (to me) as if the decss defense has become distracted with minutae and are not pursuing the case on purely first ammendment grounds. It seems to me that they'd have a much better chance if they'd ignore the crap the MPAA is spewing and hold on to the first ammendment issues like a rabid pit bull. The Felten defense seems to have a much better case for first ammendment violations but a slightly weaker platform from which to launch the challenge. The RIAA attack on Felten also has all the hallmarks of a SLAPP case, though, and I'm hoping that they go after the RIAA on those grounds too.
Oh, Ahem. I am not a lawyer, but I play one on TV.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
-Legion
(Yes, this is tongue-in-cheek--shooting is only necessary against the armed forces in order to take the government back. Keep track of who voted the DMCA in and make sure you vote against them come re-election time.)
-Legion
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
The DMCA is the root of the evil here. If Adobe had not started it, some other big corporation would have soon. Getting the protest focused against the DMCA is more important than fighting Adobe.
I don't give a shit that Adobe is going to meet with the EFF. The meeting doesn't mean that Dmitry gets to be released from jail until a summit is reached. He's still in jail, and we shouldn't settle for anything less than his immediate release and reimbursement for his time.
It's now Sunday, and I can't get to the above-linked website for additional information (like, what location was decided on). Any help?
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
tune
skkkoooonnnggggkkk ptui
Had Adobe not started this in the first place, the US Attorney's office wouldn't be involved. There'd have been no case.
I will not accept Adobe's attitude, which seems to be, "I only chucked a cigarette butt, I didn't cause any drought which dried out the forest and made it burn so easily."
If they drop their complaint but the US won't, Adobe will need to publicly apologise and actively support Dmitry's case. It won't be too hard to put a good spin on that anyway.
woof.
Join the list if you're still interested - remember, the gripe is with DMCA and the incarceration of Sklyarov more than it is a slam against Adobe. They were just dumb enough to be the first company to use their new-found powers.
You are more than the sum of what you consume.
You are more than the sum of what you consume.
Desire is not an occupation.
Orrin Hatch sponsored this bill.
Yeah, maybe he got suckered, but it was his baby; he bears the primary responsibility. He must go. Maybe he can get a job afterwards with Adobe, or the MPAA.
Until the DMCA is repealed, I will not spend one penny in the state of Utah, I will avoid patronizing any businesses based in Utah unless they take high-profile action against Orrin and/or the DMCA, and I *will* contribute substantially to the campaign funds of Orrin's opponents. I have already boycotted Adobe to the tune of $2000 so far this week, and I intend to continue until they publicly come down against the DMCA. It's not enough for them to just silently avoid using it, not now. It's too late for that.
They arrested him under the DMCA, which means, he broke a Copyright (*cough* yeah right *cough*) law, not a patent law.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
I've found that a planned proest can be every bit as insightful and useful to one's cause as an unplanned proest. Most proests are in fact planned a good deal ahead of time.
Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
...but how incredibly lame for a non-US citizen to have to go through jail/trial/etc for however many months/years in order to get rid of a stupid American law... If somebody has to go through all that crap in order to get rid of the DMCA, I'd feel better if it were an American citizen-- somebody who would more directly benefit from it..
Yes. Definitely. This is the test case opponents need to get DMCA overturned!
EFF should not cave in until that outcome is achieved! (Of course, this should not be used as an excuse to keep Dmitry in jail, or in the US.)
sulli
RTFJ.
Will is trying to negotiate in good faith with Adobe. Putting the protest on hold pending such discussion is appropriate. People need to be ready to resume at any moment, however, if Adobe is full of shit.
sulli
RTFJ.
Well at least the The Moscow Times picked up rueters byline on the event. It might be a few days before the russians have any reporters local to the story to do any homegrown "outrage"....
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
I would prefer that Adobe press the issue and this go to court where the DMCA can be questioned even further. However, I'd like to know if Dmitri is willing to bet 5 years and 500,000 dollars on that first.
In any case, the DMCA has got to go!
Offtopic, but are you suggesting that genocide, crimes against humanity etc are legal in Yugoslavia?
This way the whole thing will be forgotten. This was a chance for the community to alert the whole world to this illegal law.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Whether or not we agree with their reasoning, (and I do NOT), I hope the industry takes notice at how problems can be solved without resorting to bully tactics.
All that international law needs to claim jurisdiction is to have an effect. If I plan a terrorist assault on NY, I have an effect. If I shoot a gun over the border, I have an effect.
In either case the US will have to come to get me, or wait for me to show up--but if I'm foolish enough to show up, then that's my own damn fault.
While it may seem as if Adobe is folding, don't expect it. The DMCA is the law of the land, and Adobe would be foolish not to do exploit it as best they can.
If you want the DMCA gone, write your congressman, practice civil disobedience, and for Martin Luther King's sake, *take a case to court!*
The GPL survives in legal limbo because it's never been tested in court--and this is because those would benefit most from going to court (those who's work revolves around the GPL) would rather settle than risk legal correction.
Don't expect the same thing to work with the DMCA. Heck, don't expect anything short of a diplomatic incident to change the FBI's mind... they're officers of the law, who's job it is to gather cases against those who break the law.
(Yes, sometimes the FBI investigates innocents... but it happens. I've been investigated, you've probably been investigated... you might even have been arrested for a crime you didn't commit. Guess what? That's how the law works.)
Remember: those who want the GPL ambiguous and the DMCA unrepealed have deep pockets, and aren't afraid of the cost of a lawsuit. If we want these these things changed, we need to go to court.
If you've read the replies to the mailing list, everyone is against the idea of stopping the protestants.
The general idea is that they believe that the momentum built up for supported this cause will be deflated. They believe Adobe is trying just avoid Bad Press and extinguish the grassroots of public pressure from building up. So it is generally agreed that the EFF won't be there to give a hand, but the other protesters will still be carrying the signs and chants as planned.
There's another major competitor for Photoshop, it's called Macromedia Fireworks.
Where Adobe lacks competition is Acrobat and PageMaker. Everything else, you can go somewhere else: usually Macromedia.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
I just bought a copy of the MacGIMP CD-ROM . This supports the one major competitor for Photoshop. I hope to make this a permanent transition. Adobe's gone too far for me. ...
Now, if we could start raising a bounty to fund development of CMKY color support for GIMP.
A search of http://www.government.gov.ru/ for sklyarov returns 0 results.
As someone who has bought a number of Adobe products in the past, including this year, and lives three blocks from their facility in Fremont, Center of the Universe (in Seattle, WA), I'm glad that action is being withheld, but I'm not sure if we should say it's over until we see some positive action.
Don't get me wrong, many of my friends own Adobe stock and/or work there, but let's see how the meeting goes.
Until then I may hold off on recommending Adobe as a solution.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Where is Dimitri Sklyarov right now?
I hope that bail has been arranged - hopefully with his passport returned.
The face that EFF have enough stature to make Adobe wish to arrange a settlement on more suitably subdued terms is commendable, but I hope the guy (who could be any one of us) isn't still stuck in the greybar hotel someplace.
give me a
It is about freedom of speech EFF, not dropping the charges against a single person.
My removed PDF files are here
--
Will the last company to abandon Linux please turn off the lights??!
Well, of course, what he did *was* a crime, at least by our fucked-up standards. Is it fair? No. Is it just? No. Is it constitutional? Only up until a federal judge says its not.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
While Dimitry is certainly being treated unfairly, the criminal provisions of the DMCA cannot be thrown out as unconstitutional if it doesn't go to court.
Now, the Goldstien vs. MPAA case may get the civial portions thrown out, but unless I'm mistaken, the act has two seperate components which went into effect at different times. That means they have to be ruled on seperately, right?
Oh well, either way it's nice to see Adobe get a big black eye and a bloody nose!
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
There are a lot of protest organizers (I am one of them for the Denver area) who do not plan on canceling. There is too much momentum built up to lose it now. The focus may change to be on the government, who show no sign of backing down.
The meeting scheduled for tonight regarding the denver protest is still on. This page has the details
""He" didn't sell the software anywhere. The company he works for did. Why was he arrested? Even if they had reason to arrest someone, why was he the only one arrested? Why not the company CEO who was also there?"
Because even a corporate CEO would be likely to engender more sympathy and outrage than an "evil Russian Hacker".
Even though officially he wasn't arrested for his speech, it's OBVIOUS that the speech is exactly WHY he was picked out to be arrested. Anyone with the talent and more importantly, the ability to communicate circumvention of pitiful corporate attempts at "commercialy sold security" is a threat to the corporate bottom line.
Sklyarov had the balls to PUBLICALLY state, with proof, that "The Emperor Has No Clothes", and that pissed off the Emperor very much.
The Emperor, in this case, being Adobe, who has VERY much to gain in selling their "e-books" scheme to publishing houses, who are undoutably frothing at the mouth over the prospect of eliminating the paper book as soon as they can to rid themselves of all that "lost revenue" because people have the AUDACITY to loan books and use libraries.
One of the methods of "protection" that Sklyarov is accused of illegally "circumventing" under the DMCA is.. ROT13!
Hell, next time someone discovers another security hole in IIS, they should "encrypt" the information with a simple scheme (say 1=A, 2=B, etc), attatch it to an e-mail to Microsoft with an "EULA" forbidding them to "decrypt" it without buying a "license" for your "ABC=123 Strong Encryption Technology".
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
July 23 is 3 more days that Dimitry will have stay in jail. Wouldn't it make sense to continue to pressure Adobe by bringing the case to light during that time? Take away one person's freedom, smear the name of the offending company.
Sounds fair to me.
Dancin Santa
2. Incompetent (either hasn't read the Constitution, or think it means only what HE thinks it means)
Actually, it does. As a practical matter, anyway. If you look at your average high-school civics (OK, government/social studies, most high schools don't have a proper civics class any more) textbook, they will give you the following standard definitions for the three branches of government (or derivatives thereof):
That's right: it is the duty of the judicial branch to determine the meaning of the laws, including the Constitution. They do this every day: when a law is challenged as unconstitutional, the court must determine the meaning of the Constitution, whether or not it precludes the law being challenged, etc.
I am not saying that I agree with the law; quite the contrary. I think the DMCA is one of the best examples we have yet produced of bad law, and would be struck down immediately by a strict constructionist judge. Unfortunately, many judges take a very liberal (not politically liberal, but "willing to take liberty with interpretation" liberal) view of the constitution; this results in a very flexible Constitution, and when that flexibility exists, it will be bent to suit the will of somebody. In this case, it was bent to suit the will of the Corporations. (It usually is, but I won't go there....)
Anyhow, the point is, any law, from a city ordinance all the way up to the Constitution, means exactly what the ruling judge says it means. If you don't like his interpretation, you can appeal--the system is set up with that capability for just this reason. If this DMCA were to go to the Supreme Court, and be struck down, we would all cheer, but the fact is, it would be 9 people determining what the Constitution means; a majority of those 9 would decide that "they say it means" what we wanted to hear. Would we complain about the interpretation then? No. Would it still be individual people making a determination on the meaning of the law? Yes.
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
Pure speculation (so please moderate as such), but perhaps the EFF are so stoked that Adobe are (pretending) to take them (semi)seriously, that they've forgotten what their original goal was.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Doesn't make what Adobe did 'okay'. The only way to get them to change thier future behaviors is to have this action cost them money. because, really, they're a corporation. They don't give a shit about meetings or if some Russian guy has to go to jail, they care about the bottom line, because that is what thier stockholders care about.
So I still plan on going to my protest and I'm meeting with some people in my company today to try and get us off of the Adobe teat.
No more license fees for you boys if you can't play nice!
Brant
Brant
Argle. Bargle.
Very cool EFF! The EFF jumped right on the ball on this one. As the EFF home page indicates, they have already begun to assemble a legal team for Dmitri. Perhaps all those emails that the /. crowd sent in helped? I am sure the attention that /. created to this issue helped in the EFF getting to speak with abobe.
/. readers. You can join at https://www.eff.org/support/
This is just like the Microsoft stuff we have seen recently. I have said it before, and I will say it again. No company is so huge that is can stop listening to its customers. I will chalk up a partial credit to Adobe for agreeing to the meeting. The EFF and Adobe may not come out of the first meeting agreeing, but at least Adobe is willing to discuss the issue, and that is a fine start.
Kudos again to the EFF! I am a member, and if you are not, throw a little cash their way. Time and time again they fight for the interests of the plurality of
Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
Why is the EFF diffusing the publicity this matter is getting simply in order to talk with Adobe? Wouldn't it be better to let the protests continue and use this opportunity to raise public awareness of the obvious problems with the DMCA? The DMCA must be challenged in court. It is a bad law. It is the kind of law that can be eliminated by the judicial system of our country and through public support. Be heard! $live{free} || die;
The man has already been arrested. He's already been put into jail. DMCA has already been passed into law.
Protests need to continue, if for nothing else, to educate the public.
Why are we cancelling protests? Is Dimitry now out of jail, and has Adobe published a public apology on MSNBC, CNET, and traditional media outlets? No, I didn't think so.
--
fifth sigma, inc.
Of course a meeting is the best thing we could expect right away. Don't be a turd. The EFF has been doing this shit for a little while now, and I think they know more about it than you do. It's a unite or die thing. Don't go fucking around.
If you just have to rebel or you'll explode, please go make some other cause look stupid. I don't think ELF has made environmental activists look bad enough. Why don't you go join their ilk?
The deal is that they're getting the "right people" together. Who are the right people? How the hell should they know? They haven't done this before. This requires a phalanx of lawyers, marketeers, and decision makers. You get them all in a room within 24 hours.
Hey, if you're personally going to protest, then God bless your efforts, but I'm still of the mind that the "masses" could always used a little bit of centralization beyond rioting swarms of angry protestors.
Adobe will probably try to pacify the public and their outcry over this by significantly lowering the price on some of their popular products;
I hope most people are better than that and show that the public can have a long memory which can be devestating to companies that do insane things like what Adobe has been doing.
If you have not yet contacted Adobe with your concerns, perhaps it is best to do so. Adobe likely does not read forums such as this (shrug), and the only likely means Adobe can understand this public relations flop is their receipt of email from concerned individuals.
Boycott Adobe has the following email contacts at Adobe to send a message to.
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
Well, most people reading this love the computer industry, but despise Microsoft, which is an integral part of it.
There is an NPR story online where the head Adobe council claims that the Elcomsoft software was "aimed at the U.S. Market."
All Things Considered
Morning Edition
I find this interesting when Elcomsoft has always said that the software was mostly meant for Russians to be able to make copies, permitted under Russian law. They did give rights to distribute in the U.S., but for explicit purposes for the items to be used under fair use.
The same interviews say a couple of other interesting items. One: "We didn't think the likelyhood of getting any money [from Elcomsoft] was very high," so they pursued a criminal course of action. Can you say GREED??
Also, "we asked them cease and desist," which Elcomsoft *DID,* just keeping up a small demo that should be protected as a research example.
This just gets worse and worse...
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
If the proests are off for now I'm assuming they'll still be protesting right?
Posthuman since 2001.
Why in the world is the EFF giving them what they want?
Wouldn't a more realistic course be to keep the scheduled protest and then cancel it only if Adobe concedes?
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
From one of my mailing lists...
National Security and Individual Freedoms: How the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) Threatens Both.
The article is here."
A good read, particularly after the crap Adobe is pulling with poor Dmitry.
Oops! My fault for not previewing my post.