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Iceman Murdered by Arrow in the Back
PenguinRadio writes: "The Washington Post has taken a break from the Chandra Levy case to report on a recently discovered murder of a 5,300 year old iceman. The iceman was discovered about ten years ago in the snow covered Alps near Italy, but it was unknown until today how he died. Scientists used a CT scan to discover an arrowhead embedded in his back. Being stabbed in the back is not a recent dot.com kind of thing." Somehow it's inspiring to see just how long we've been killing each other. This story is great in so many ways.
I happen to specialize in the European Bronze age. Though my main emphisis is much later. A hunting accident is not ridiculous at all. Imagin arrow knocked back, rugged terrain, and cold possibly icy conditions. A point in favour of this view would be the bones of the goat found nearby. The "iceman" could not have shot it with a dissabled arm. So a possible scenario would be the "attacker" leaving some food for the "iceman" and going to get help wich was prevented by a nasty storm. The bows of this period were short range affairs which required the hunter to get close to the game. Walking around with an arrow knocked back, would not be uncommon. This is not to imply that these weapons were primitive. They were not. In fact they were amazingly sophisticated, capable of tremendouse velocity. Also, even today, hunting accidents during archery sesson do happen, as I can personal attest. A buddy I was with, got shot in the ass by an over anxious bowman( term used loosely!) Fortunatly, the arrow had a target tip and had been slowed down by all the brush it went through. I highly recommond the study of the history of archery to anyone interested in technology. You will be astonished by the ingenuity of our ancestors.
Iceman's conversation with his hunting buddies:
Iceman: You two really are cowboys.
Hunting buddy: What's your problem, Kazanski?
Iceman: You're everyone's problem. That's because everytime you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.
Hunting buddy: That's right! Ice... man. I am dangerous.
[Thunk! Arrow in the back.]
Alex Bischoff
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
Long time, no post... Welcome back Oog.
:wq
Hah. Let's see Columbo solve this.
They've even brought in psychics!
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Italian Ice".
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Sadly, this kind of archaeology and anthropology in the United States is effectively dead -- whatever Native First Indigenous People American Indian tribe lived closest to the site of the discovery would lay claim to his remains and a wonderful find would be lost to science thanks to the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act . Fire up your Google buttons and look for the sad tale of Kennewick Man...
Learn to spell: nickel, missile, lose, solely, amendment, speech, kernel, probably, ridiculous, deity, hierarchy, versus
probably because people have many, many years to get sick and tired of their family, whereas the burglar just wanders in and out of your life rather quickly...
"The things we wizards have to put up with."--Jethro Bodine
Oh, sure, Blame It On Cain .
Here is a discussion of Otzi.
l
Apparently there was a hoax based around the idea that arrows weren't the only thing coming from behind him.
(read the story, you'll get the joke)
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_229.htm
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
Was I the only one to think that, based on the headline "Ice Man" referred to Val Kilmer, killed in some freakish fashion?
Urgh. Must grab my morning coffee.
I wonder what the Iceman's last words were...
Probably "Owwww!"
Bowie J. Poag
Project Manager, System 26 GUI Component Stockpile
Bowie J. Poag
Vik :v)
http://www.iceman.it/
Bye :-)
Markus
--
PS: I'could be one of Ötzis descendants... he was found a few km from my home...
PPS: 90% of all replys to this article are rated "funny" - I hope at least mine will be moderated as "informative" ;-)
> This is probably exactly what the guy's entire problem was. He was standing there, under attack, and thinking "Gee, I wish I had something that was suitable for use as a weapon, but all I have is this copper axe."
IIRC, he was found with partially finished bow and arrows. Looks like "they" found him before he was ready for them.
Ah! Check this out.
Other pages disagree on whether or not he was a meat eater; some say that the (purported) fact that he wasn't a meat eater means that his bow and arrows were for fighting rather than for hunting.
Also of interest, his bow apparently qualifies as a "longbow". See the entries for "iceman bow" and "longbo" at this site.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
:-)
<sig>Guvf vf abg n frperg zrffntr
I think the question on everybody's mind is if Chandra Levy was kidnapped and murdered via stone arrowhead to the back, will this frozen iceman provide any forensic clues as to identify the assailant?
Hopefully the Washington Post and other major news outlets will be quick to draw conclusions.
Cheers,
levine
online here
Never meant half of the things I said to you. So you know, there's a half that might be true - G. Phillips
A jealous husband? You're making a lot of cultural assumptions there. Traditional inuit families often had wives with two husbands, or husbands with two wives. I even recall hearing once that it was custom for a man to lend his wife to a visiting guest.
This man died 5000 years ago. People then were very primitive by our standards. It could be this man was killed because people thought he was posessed by an evil spirit. It could be that he was old and a drain on his community so he was chased out of his home.
Good science requires that you don't forget all your assupmtions and look at only the facts. Don't jump to conclusions based on what might make you shoot a guy in the back.
"Ow, I slipped and fell on my own arrow! Do I feel stupid! Well, at least nobody will know..."
If I remember correctly, Ötzi - who is very popular in the media here since he was discovered - was some kind of salesman who was crossing the alps to sell (or trade, whatever) flintstones.
Maybe there was a flintstone mafia back in those days that didn't like what he did, so they sent a hitman...
Dude, I was nowhere near there at the time, I got witnesses.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I swear, Sesame Street needs to hire Oog poste haste!
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
You should insert linebreaks (with :-)
) in your sig, to break it up the same way Theoden said it. Okay, that made no sense -- well, the same way Tolkien wrote it when he translated Theoden saying it.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Wow. They couldn't get anywhere near that detailed in the OJ Simpson case, but they can list point-for-point the assault on a dude frozen for 53 centuries. :-)
And ten years from now, new evidence will come to light. And some Italian-Austrian-Alps-area con man will claim to be Otzi's descendant, and sue for mistrial.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
You know, If he was really a warrior, that copper axe of his would make much more sense as a weapon than for something to chop wood as many currently think.
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satire, n: 1) witty language used to convey insults or scorn; 2) a form of humor lost on most slashdot moderators.
Just because he has an arrow in his back doesn't mean it was a murder. Maybe he was hit accidentally.
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I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
and since the burglar gets a lot more exercise, he's a much smaller target than your average american couchpotato...
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
I'm sure he was accidentally shot, and then just left there to freeze for us to find him thousands of years later. "Whoops! Well, I'll get vindicated by somebody when the computer is invented," Og the killer caveman surely said.
If he were accidentally shot, don't you think the person who shot him would have carried him back to wherever? They did do burials back then. Even elephants bury their dead.
No, the only time you kill someone and leave 'em in a snowbank is because you're pretty sure the statute of limitations is longer than 5,000 years.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
...the cause of the death of the Human Torch is yet unknown.
Who moderates the meta-moderators?
Maybe I'm missing something here but how is it that in the course of 10 years since the body was discovered there were dozens of wild theories about the cause of death and nobody noticed he had a critical wound in his back? They could see the pores in his skin but not a hole from an arrow? AND they did a biopsy of his stomach contents before they took an X-Ray? Or was it only possible to see the flint arrow head in a CT Scan? There's even something that looks like an arrow shaft sticking out of his shoulder in the photo! (Though I suppose that could be something the scientists put there)
I say he fell on it and killed himself, since in those days no one played FPS video games.
if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans
It it was an accident, why would he have died alone on a mountain?
Why wouldn't his friend who accidently shot him have helped him down the mountain?
The story said he was shot in the shoulder and took some time to die.
Why do you claim it was an accident? What are you trying to hide? Where were you on Thursday January 12, 5000 B.C.?
Let's see... he's 5300 years old, say a generation is 20 years, so 5 generations per hundred years, 5*53 = 265 generations of offspring lost by his death, say at 1.1 kids average per generation, his death prevented the birth of 1.1^265 = over 93 BILLION people!!! - enough to toally swamp the planet. So obviously he was killed by a terminator robot from the future to insure his offspring wouldn't lead to the destruction of the intelligent computers we will build in the next 50 years. This theory is further supported by the fact that he was found at/near/in Austria. Everybody knows those futuristic terminator robots speak with an Austrian accent. And another thing...a coverup is underway!!! The arrowhead was pure titanium!!! They're trying to cover that up by showing some flint fake on the news!!!!
...can be found here. There was also an article in a recent Discover issue about his last meal, June or July, but it doesn't seem to be on the magazine's website.
Archibald Feller and Associates
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Nothing like a pre-historic hunting accident:
Officer: Why did you shoot your friend in the back with that arrow?
Og: He was wearing his deer skin. Before I realized it was him, the bow just went off.
Officer: Well, we could haul him down the mountain, but let's just leave him there. That way when he's found people can speculate wildly about what happened.
Some people have a way with words, and some people, um, thingy.
Ouch!!!
bowhunters (at least in my state) do not wear hunter orange, only rifle/pistol/shotgun hunters are required to wear hunter orange during deer/small game season. During Turkey season, everyone gets to wear camo and you are stationary, so you really do look like a bush. They suggest you tie a orange ribbon to the tree above your position though.
Read my plan to save the Bengals
NO ONE was very tall. You giant six footers are historical aberrations. Most adult men ranged in size from five to five and half feet tall for the last hundred thousand years, I'd speculate.
Look at old suits of armor the next time you are in a museum.
Scientists also point to a series of cave paintings depicting violent acts as probably having desensitized the killer, allowing him to take another life. "As you can see, even primitive man faced the problem of violence in the media, and this poor chap paid the price."
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
"Although the cause of death has been established, the scientists are still arguing where the arrow was fired. Some say it was shot from a nearby cave full of primitive cave writing, some opponents claim it was fired from a closer grassy knoll. Some even go as far as saying there was more than one shooter, since the 'magic arrow' - as the scientists started to call it - traveled through Otzi in a manner which would be 'physically impossible and ballistically preposterous' for a single arrow, as expressed by one scientist, who prefers to remain anonymous"
"We have an A-Bomb...what more do you want, mermaids?" --I.I. Rabi, speaking in defense of Robert Oppenheimer
There's no statue of limitation on murder, is there?
I sort of feel sorry for the officer assigned to this case.
As I recall, he wasn't wearing his bright orange jacket, just some brown fabrics and leather. He was probably mistaken for a deer or sheep by another hunter, and shot accidentally. This is yet another example of what happens when people don't prepare properly before going hunting. Bows don't kill people, people kill people.
Freedom: "I won't!"
According to this article by New Scientist, the arrow was discovered almost by accident. A CT scan performed in April by team specialist Paul Gostner showed no sign of foreign objects. Then three weeks ago, he took a chest X-ray that showed the outline of the arrow. A second examination of the CT scan confirmed the finding, as did the physical examination with pathologist Eduard Egarter which showed a two-centimetre cut in the skin matching the trajectory of the arrow. It turns out that because the arrow lies between the shoulder bone and the ribs, it would only show up on a scan of the side. And since all previous scans had been of only the front and back of the body, they hadn't found it until now.
Kind of makes you think how some of the greatest scientific discoveries were made almost entirely by accident (like how they discovered the electron, electric motors or radiation).
Self Bias Resistor
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When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer our friend.
"But using a technique called computerized tomography, a sophisticated X-ray that allows for multidimensional imaging, ..."
They used a freaking CAT scan, folks. Something you can get in just about every hospital nowadays.
Yeah, I bet that was a real tough one to come up with, wasn't it? "Gee, maybe if we look inside the body with these sophisticated tools we've had for decades, we might see something?"
Oetzi: Why, Togg, you bought a HUNTING bow, right? Specifically, a DEER hunting bow.
Togg: Yeah.
Oetzi: Well, how am I supposed to make sure you only use it for deer huinting? Why, if I wasn't watching you, you might go off and hunt boar, or bears, or, heck, just about anything! You could even use it as a WAR bow, and not a hunting bow at all!
Togg: But I paid you for it! I should be able to use it however I want!
Oetzi: No, Togg. You bought the RIGHT to USE the bow for deer hunting. The bow itself is still mine.
Togg: Well, what if I just use one of my own strings?
[Togg takes a bowstring from his pouch, and begins to string the bow]
Oetzi: NO!!! That's a circumvention device! You can be trampled by mammoths just for carrying that around! I'm calling the Elders!
[TWANG]
Togg: Well, that's the end of that...
(email addr is at acm, not mca)
We are Number One. All others are Number Two, or lower.
(email addr is at acm, not mca)
We are Number One. All others are Number Two, or lower.
--The Sphinx
"Apparently the deceased knew he was in danger and was perhaps fleeing to another village. Found on a cave wall in a cave the deceased was know to dwell was the following:
I am scared. Many come for me. I hope I can ahhhhhh."
---
This
For anyone interested in seeing the xray of the wound, you can see it at http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010725/wl/ital y_mystery_iceman_rom104.html.
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
OOG ALWAYS WONDER WHAT HAPPEN TO COUSIN THARG SINCE HE DISAPPEAR IN MOUNTAIN!!! OOG THINK THARG FREEZE TO DEATH OR EATEN BY MAMOUTH BUT NOW ANGRY TO LEARN THARG MURDERED!!!
OOG THINK CAVEMAN GROK BEHIND MURDER (SINCE OJ SIMPSON NOT ALIVE AT THAT TIME AND USE KNIFE INSTEAD OF ARROW), BUT OOG PROBABLY HAVE TO HIRE UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER CIRROC TO BE ABLE TO BRING REAL KILLER TO JUSTICE!!! OOG AVENGE DEAD COUSIN THARG!!!
OOG THE OPEN SOURCE CAVEMAN!!! OOG BREAK HEAD WITH OPEN SOURCE CD!!!
Somehow it's inspiring to see just how long we've been killing each other. This story is great in so many ways.
How is murder in any sense of the term great in so many ways?
Look, man was civilized enough to kill one another!
I think its sad in so many ways that we can't stop killing one another...
--
Fnord is that feeling you get when you reach for a Snickers and come back with a Slurpee.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I happen to be from that province where the Oetzi was found aka South Tyrol.
The museum where the iceman is exposed is located in Bolzano - Italy.
Here's the homepage:
www.iceman.it
or alternatively see here:
www.provinz.bz.it
cheers,
Benno.
www.linuxaudiodev.org The Home Of Linux Audio Development
I have examined all the evidence, and I can conclusively demonstrate the invalidity of the researchers' so-called "single arrow" theory. No one arrow could have caused such damage. There must have been another archer, perhaps firing from the grassy knoll.
144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
Having shot the iceman, the archer then proclaimed: I own j00!
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Even as you read this, your pants are strangling your loins! Aaa!
...Magneto knew just the tool to use, that bastard! Iceman, you will be avenged!
What I found interesting was that he seemed to be in the process of making arrows and a bow. He had 12 unfinished arrow shafts and 2 arrows ready to be shot. Also, he carried a bow that was still being worked and not yet strung.
That he was off on a hunting trip was the original hypothesis. But between the murder and the fact that he was still making his weaponry, I would suspect some other (social?) situation brought him into the mountains, and to his untimely demise.
I spent all of those years as Anonymous Coward and all I got was this lousy number (204976).
Police are now looking a suspect in the Iceman case: "Thargg of the Mountains". He is considered armed and dangerous.
When asked about the 5000+ year age of the case, Inspector Podder replied "There is no statute of limitation on murder."
Anyone with any information on Thargg should call 1-555-222-TIPS.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Is it possible several Icemen went out on a hunt and this one got killed by an arrow gone astray ? Wouldn't that be as parisimonious as any of the scenarios presented (if it was a grudge/war, I think you might expect to see some sort of mutilation) ? Or does an accident just make less interesting copy ?
It may have been an accident but it's a much more interesting and assuring - it's good to see we aren't any worse people now than we were then - if it were murder. The belief that it was murder creates the potential for a sociological analysis (rabid theorization) but this will give one grad student a topic for his thesis, which I suppose is an inportant goal in and of itself
This practice is vary common, especially in the field of history. I'm going to stop short of aleging revisionist history, and simply say that it is common to evaluate the same event from entirely different perspectives and reach entirely different conclusions - sometimes simply for the purpose of being able to publish additional research papers - after all, there is a limited amount of history to interpret.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Q: What goes, *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *sproi-oing* *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *stomp*?
A: A prehistoric drive-by shooting.
(Yes, I know bows don't really go "sproi-oing", but it's a funnier sound effect than "fpppppt".)
We have a picture of the suspect. Please report to local police if you've seen him.
Caution: the suspect is armed.
What's up with that?
It was Cain!
Cain did it!
--
Two witches watched two watches.
--
Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
What it really proves is that Monty Python's material ain't as original as we'd believed. oh well...
I am the very model of a modern major general!
In his 1995 book, "The Man In the Ice", Konrad Spindler described in detail the iceman's equipment including his quiver, which he shows conclusively was badly damaged BEFORE it was frozen. In particular, its strap was torn off and the lid damaged.
The natural place to wear a quiver is slung over your back. If the iceman had fallen surely it is certainly possible that he fell on his back. Thq quiver would then be placed between his body and the ground, pushing one of the arrows through the quiver and into his scapula. This would also account for the damage to the quiver and I am surprised this possibility has not been mentioned.
The iceman also has serial rib fractures on one side - it is not possible to tell if this happened pre-mortem or not, but he does say that serial rib fractures are common in falls.
Of course the fact that the arrows would be point-down in the quiver means that the arrow would probably have pushed through the bottom of the quiver.
Of course it is not nearly as newsworthy...
Philip
Washington D.C. - Shortly after an interview with Italian authorities, congressman Gary Condit held a press conference in which he flatly denied any knowledge of the iceman, his whereabouts or who may have wacked him in the back with an arrow.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Barney: Hey Fred!
Fred: What?!
Barney: Give me your Cocoa Pebbles!
Fred: No!
Barney: No? Ohhhhhh, Freeeeeed!
(barney gets hit by an arrow in the back)
Fred: Barney!
(a light appears behind Fred)
Barney: Yes, Fred?
Fred: You...you're an angel!
Barney: Your selfishness sent me to the great beyond.
(we see birds holding Barney on ropes and holding a flashlight over him)
Fred: Forgive me! Have my Cocoa Pebbles! Have them all!
Barney: Heavenly! Chocolatiest cereal in Bedrock!
(birds lick their lips and let go of the ropes)
Fred: Barney! You're no angel!
(Barney plummets into a glacier)
Barney: The devil made me do it!
thanks to
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
And his last words were...
"Run away! Run away! Run away!"
(yes, that's Monty Python for all you jocks who don't get it.)
we need to enact bow control and full arrow registration.
Another sensless walk-by arrowing.
-You can cry, but you'll still die. There'll be no tears in the end.
And the Justice Dept. denied that any of the missing FBI bows & arrows had anything to do with the death.
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I thought a glacier snuck up on the iceman while he was sleeping.