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Mindstorms' Next Generation
davey23sol writes: "MSNBC has a 2.0 review of Lego Mindstorms here. Looks like they have put in an easier programming system for users, touch and light sensors, and some other stuff. The transmitters for the infrared transmitters are now USB instead of serial, too. The new system will be $200, and if you have Mindstorms now the upgrade will just be $20. It should all be available this month. I can't wait to get one (never got around to getting my Mindstorms kit)." This review may not go into $200 worth of depth, so I look forward to more detailed reader reviews (and more pictures) when this is widely available :)
Everyone loves legos, but make a giant death robot out of them and destroy New York and suddenly you've gone too far!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It's an ap story, so it should be many places soon.
Here is a version at
dailyherald.com.
Remember... MS assumes only IT'S software exists...
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
"I'll spell it Micro$loth Winblows in a Delicious Twist."
"I refer to them as Nutscrape and Internet Exploder, respectively."
I call it AO Hell, because I'm yet another cocksucker!
another spot.. (from another thread)
It's an ap story, so it should be many places soon.
it's also at dailyherald.com
Remember... MS assumes only IT'S software exists...
It works fine in NS 6, btw...
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
"Another advance is that the infrared transmitter now plugs into a computer?s USB port rather than a serial port ? to improve speed."
/. that much... all the girls i know would kill me for that one)
Now, i can see switching to USB to improve compatibility, but to improve speed?! How fast can you really blast IR anyway? Is this mis-informed journalism, or bad marketing, or did i miss the memo about 12Mb IR tranceivers?
I also found it somewhat amusing that his girlfriend was faster on the pickup than he was . Take that, gender-based stereotypes (thank god my friends don't read
Aug. 31 ? I?m a little disappointed in the 21st century. By now, everything was supposed to come in sleek shades of silver, especially the flying cars confidently whooshing overhead. We should be speaking Esperanto, perhaps even communicating telepathically. MOST OF ALL, where are the robots? With those earnest bundles of wires doing our hard work, we could have more time to plan vacations in space and reserve spots for our bodies in cryogenics labs. So the chance to make my own robot at home with the new version 2.0 of the Lego Mindstorms Robotics Invention System sounded awfully appealing. Mindstorms, recommended for ages 12 and up, uses the familiar Lego interlocking plastic blocks that have entertained generations of children (and budding architects). But this kit has some important extras: touch and light sensors, for example, and a battery-powered computer ?brain? that can be programmed to make wheels spin and arms move. The commands are made with a few mouse clicks on a PC, thanks to software that comes on a CD and is downloaded into the Lego robot?s brain via an infrared transmitter. Lego, based in Billund, Denmark, introduced the Mindstorms line in 1998, and watched it become a huge hit not only with children but also with tech-savvy adults. Some tinkerers even hacked the Mindstorms code and made robots far more complex than those suggested in the Lego manual. Version 2.0 has the same pieces as its predecessor but promises much simpler programming. Instead of having to program motors individually, users can now simply tell their robots to move forward, zigzag or whatever. Another advance is that the infrared transmitter now plugs into a computer?s USB port rather than a serial port ? to improve speed. Due to hit stores in late September, Mindstorms 2.0 will retail for $200; people who own the original version can upgrade for $20. A programming tutorial that comes with the CD is very useful ? detailed enough for people not overly familiar with the linear logic of computer programs, yet quick enough so as to not insult your intelligence. The beauty of the system is that users can design robots themselves from scratch or build suggested models and animate them with programs that come with the CD. Though I really wanted to build something that would fetch the newspaper or drive me to work, my girlfriend was much more realistic. She quickly assembled an 8-inch-tall robot suggested in the manual. Since I have no engineering ability and limited patience, I decided to load into our new friend a program that came on the CD, though I did make some adjustments of my own. And so now our apartment is protected by a robotic security guard made out of Lego. When it detects a bright light ? an intruder?s flashlight, perhaps ? it starts beeping. If we squeeze its hand, it will stop beeping and shake from side to side, as if to express utter relief that we?re home. But if you?re a thief who fails to apply the reassuring squeeze, it will throw a little ball at you and beep some more. Take that, criminal. You?ve just stepped into a real 21st century apartment. © 2001 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Kurdt
I'm not anti-social. Just pro-technology.
I was at Target yesterday and saw something
that claimed to be 2.0, so I guess it is already
"widely avaiable."
Homepage
legOS is an open-source embedded operating system for the LEGO Mindstorms, a LEGO brick with a brain. Compared to the standard software, it offers vastly superior performance and flexibility.
As of version 0.2.0, legOS features include:
* Dynamic loading of programs and modules
* Full IR packet networking
* Preemprive multitasking
* Dynamic memory management
* Drivers for all RCX subsystems
* 16 MHz native mode speed
* Access to 32k RAM
Not sure about you, but the crappy IDE click and drag blocks all over the place doesnt quite the cake for building a robot. I wish i had a block to try this OS out. Legos ruuulllll333!!
Jon Bardin
Yeah, first you learned architecture from it, then you decided to go for the, "I am death, I am the destroyer of worlds" kind of thing?
:-)
Seems to me that most people built their legos just to destroy them.. I wonder if people got over their destructive vendetta after their lego fetish? Would the Oklahoma City bomber have not bombed Oklahoma City if he had played with legos?
Finally, engineers can build their girlfriends! (Although they wouldn't know what to say to her.)
"Old man yells at systemd"
AP website:
E CH test
= 37 13737
http://wire.ap.org/APnews/main.html?PACKAGEID=T
daily herald:
http://www.dailyherald.com/main_story.asp?intid
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
Wait a second... last time I looked Lego was a toy manufacturer.
I think you might have a good idea, but it might be way outside of Lego's core business. They make plastic toys that look cool in your office or home. Perhaps a good spin-off could make the learning/industrial devices that you point out...
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
Give me a break. Legos are maximally social, if you have any ambition. You can't build a truly inspiring moonbase or a decent ski resort or a reasonable cityscape without all of your friends' Legos alongside your own. And the base/resort/city planning stage requires a degree of collective problem-solving and negotiation skills you won't find in any snow fort or football team. Don't generalize from your own twisted childhood.
My next-door neighbor and I used to play Monopoly in the middle of a Lego wonderland, using Lego vehicles to move around the board, Lego stands to hold our property cards and a powered Lego conveyor belt to pass money across the wide table to each other. Top that!
We can reduce ideas to bits and people to genes, but "can" does not imply "should".
I just started my Realtime systems course at my university, and in that course, for the lab assignments, we will use LEGO Mindstorms to build cars or robots and control them with a realtime operating system. I can't wait.
Will work for bandwidth
Does anyone know when this will be avaliable in Europe? and will we be able to cheaply upgrade as well?
I purchased the 1.0 version. Since then there has been a firmware upgrade which was signifigant, but that's about all. You can download the firmware for free for those of you with an older RCX brick -- http://mindstorms.lego.com/sdk2/. Serial to USB for the IR tower...all that means is that now I can't use a really old computer on the new Mindstorms. It seems they dumbed down the programming system. Most of the people really into this stuff use things like NQC (not quite c) or legOS, not the LEGO programming system.
What they really need is more I/O and a better array of sensors. You can break the 3 output/ 3 input barrier, but it's awkward. And how about sonar!
BTW, there is a big community for the LEGO fanatic, including Mindstorm lover. lugnet.com is the place to go for those of you wanting a social LEGO lifestyle.
Lego Online Shop - here you can choose your country, or here is the shop with all the products.
Will work for bandwidth
I got the Mindstrom 2.0 a couple of weeks back.
New in Mindstrom 2 are big blocks. Which are nothing but collection of small set of operations (know as small blocks).
Programmers will recognize these as subroutines.
The only other major change as compared to Mindstrom 1.5 is the support for USB instead of COM port.
Those of who think that just because programming is a lot easier with Mindstrom 2 you can build robots more easily are wrong.
Programming was never the difficult part. The difficult part to think of a design, finding the parts (you will always end up needing more parts than available in the set) and fitting the parts to form a strong structure.
Programming is a lot easier compared to desiging a good robot.
The System is only usable with Windows 98 and ME.
No Windows NT/2000 or other OS support.
They will expand the number of sensors and motors you can connect at one time.
I am aware of a number of "hacks" to allow you to attach more sensors and motors (my favorite involves a system whereby a circuit senses when a sensor is toggled between two certain modes, in that there is a current drop or something involved in the switch, and can activate a multiplexing system to select a different set of three outputs), but these systems all are custom, and require a bit of hardware skill and modeling skill to build - plus, no one else can replicate your machine unless they build that same system.
I would like to see the "Ultimate Accessory" pack added as a standard part to the system - to let you get a rotation sensor, and a remote, as well as other good parts.
It would also be nice to get some more "funkier" sensors or devices - like a laser pointer, one or two of the mini-motors, a wireless camera (something like the lego cam, but wireless), maybe an outboard battery pack, maybe high-power motors, a usb or network interface on-board the RCX (adding the extra sensors and motors onto the box will make it big enough to add this), so you can communicate directly, or network multiple RCXs together (Beowu... ah, nevermind).
How about solenoid valves for the pneumatics - by the way, why can't we get the pneumatic systems anymore, huh? Walking machines would get sooo much easier, to an extent. Pitsco sells the parts, for most of it, so it is available still, but only if you know about them - still, it is nearly impossible to get the blue air tank to power your pneumatic system - check Ebay and pay through the nose, IF you are lucky.
One other part I would like to see added as standard - a ball and socket joint. Lego introduced a part nearly like this with those cheesy Robot fling kits, but the arm that had the ball was made out of this flexible plastic - you can cut the ball off, which leaves you with a ball and a small cross peg, to attach to, but it is still hard to work with, and the ball is too tight in the socket - it needs loosening up (maybe some sandpaper and oil applied would help) to be useful, for things like very flexible arms and legs on experimental bots.
I would also like to see the return of the huge tires that came with the old Expert Builder car kit, these things are near impossible to find (once again, Ebay it). Plus, make it easy to get the old jointed track (Pitsco sells this) for treads. Plus the geared large turntables - must have parts for robotic arm devices!
With five motors and five sensor inputs, a real industrial-style robot arm built from lego (along the lines of a Rhino arm, or a Micromover arm) could easily be built, and teach a lot of principles of design, programming and control. Right now, to build such a thing, you need two RCX units, and a few motors, and it is still a pain to build (most work is in getting the two RCXs talking to each other properly).
Add more memory to the RCXs, as well - for much, much larger programs - heck, drop 128K in - more than enough!
For such an upgrade, I would be willing to pay $100.00 to trade in my old RCX for the new one, or something along those lines...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
This company claims to make the "Industrial Erector Set". Life sized, industrial-strength modular pieces...
[8020.net] http://www.8020.net
According to this "The RCX uses a 38kHz carrier, which is pretty typical for TV remotes. As for the sampling rate, the RCX runs at 2400 bps, which makes each bit approx 417us."
So maybe there isn't going to be a speed gain(except maybe from PC to the IR transmitter.. rather moot i'd think)
LegOS is now at 0.2.5. You can get all the latest info (along with CVS access, etc) at SourceForge.
Why is there only one Monopolies commission?
Program what you want, go away, come back and 20 robots are now working on it for you...
4000Mb/s
Errr I meant 4000Kb/s (aka 4Mb/s)... doh... but the point still remains.
"And like that
LejOS (http://lejos.sourceforge.net) is an open source Java API for RCX.
LejOS is great, although it does have the usual Java problems: large memory footprint, slow (virtual machine), etc...
I like to use both legOS and lejOS, depending on the project.
Also, I've been working on RCXComm, which is fun if you grok RCX bytecodes.
If you watch TV news, you know less about the world than if you just drank gin straight from the bottle.
I Agree, Lego is very very social, but it can be enjoyed alone too. It if far better that the action figure craze I think, and much more social that most toys on the market. I had a few friends that would come over with their tub of lego and we would build massive spacebases and the like. The problem was playing with my sisters (I have 2 younger sisters, no brothers) They would always steal the best pieces or make furniture for their barbies.
There is also a new Lego Board game out called 'Creator' You start off with an instrucion card for a basic lego model, as does everyone else and the idea is to move around the board to collect the pieces you need to finish it, I would call that fairly social too.
If you do want another social aspect of lego, get some friends together, build yourself an army and play BrikWars. Mass destruction on a MiniFig scale!!!
Trav
Leg Godt!
I remember the day when Legos made technics, sets that included gears and sprockets, springs, pneumatic pumps, and other such mechanical wonders. I used to always play with those. What i didnt quite understand is why they stopped making those? They seemed to encourage more imaginative thinking, becuase yuo could build more than just a city or a star wars ship or something of the stationary and inanimate. The technics sets allowed kids to use concepts such as gear ratios, pressure (pneumatic pumps) and other concepts which introduced phyical concepts of motion and dynamics. especially when the sets started adding motors, so that all those fancy cars with steering could actually move by themselves. I remember that there was a set for building a car (with most of the parts) NOW THAT'S LEARNING!!! god, any mechanic could have used that as a child. Then Legos stopped making the sets. damn was i pissed! Once an english teacher told me that kids are being dumbed down...he said a test that he gave 10 years ago, today's kids would all flunk. Reflecting back on lego sets...i see his point. now they programmable (yay! go digital gadgets), i have nothing against that...but what happened to the good old stuff. I guess i am just nostalgic :-(
.
BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
...these sets?
Was this the car you were talking about?
Technic appears to be alive and well. Though I must agree with you about the dumbing-down and relentless merchandising of everything these days. Growing up, I thought LEGO was a lot of fun without having to attach the Star Wars franchise or any other marketing crap to the products. LEGO were (and still are) just plastic blocks that stick together, and they managed to compete quite successfully with video games when I was a young'un-- there was many an afternoon that my ColecoVision sat idle while I was furiously building space shuttles and F-15s.
I loved the Technic stuff, I had a huge box of miscellaneous gears, axles, etc, a couple of the motors, and also the pneumatic stuff. I also have a huge town setup from sets from the 80's, the very first model of their battery-powered train sets, and enough track to circle the whole town... all carefully stored away until I have enough space to set them up again someday. Hell, I'm 28 and I still pull out the things once in a while when I'm in a creative mood. Once a LEGO kid, always a LEGO kid, I guess.
~Philly
Buy Fred Martin's book "Robotic Exporations" first before you buy Mindstorms.
He and MIT helped invent the Mindstorms.
http://www.handyboard.com/
I'm going to put together one of these robots and program it to sit at my keyboard and click Slashdot links. Every couple of minutes, it will take random lines from people's old posts and assemble a new comment. It's amazing what machines can do in place of humans.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
From the article: Though I really wanted to build something that would fetch the newspaper or drive me to work, my girlfriend was much more realistic.
I wish I'd thought of making a realistic Lego girlfriend. Somebody should tell the guys at Columbia Internet.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
Now, as for your pissing and moaning: instead of badmouthing Lego on /., why don't you send them a constructive letter where you don't use the spelling "Windoze" and don't insult Windows users? Maybe, if enough Mac users sent enough letters Lego would be willing to port Mindstorms.
Meanwhile, I'm going to go and program my latest bot from my Power Mac 6500.
As for the person who modded me down a off-topic, I did mention that he probably legos. I went off on a tangent that was introduced by it's immediate parent, because it needed to be said. When something needs to be said, it will be said. Slashdot karma is replacable (and meaningless, this is the first time I've hit 49 in months)
-bugg
As a kid, I never had Legos - instead I used Fischertechnik
.
To my mind they are a lot more impressive than legos - I think using them you can build much more stable structures, and though I am not sure they seem like the grandfather of the current Lego "Technic" sets. The link given shows a number of interesting kits such as phnumatic robotas and the like - they also have many motor sets (that I used as a kid) that have varying gears and such you could hook up to them. I think the Fischertechnik sets are more expensive than Legos, but to my mind seem to have a wider range of possible function.
I'm not at all sure what they are like to program though. It would be nice if someone had a comparitive review somewhere.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I don't know how widely used this "toy" is, but my 11 year-old sister got a LOT of use out of her mindstorms kit. It combined simple robotics with an introduction to simple computer programming, and it wasn't long before i found myself on the lookout for motion-activated catapults whenever I had to go near her room. I found the experience rather stressful and unnerving, but she definitely learned a lot, and gained an interest in computer science as well.
1) noga.de is no longer maintained; legos.sourceforge.net is the canonical site now.
2) For a complete reference of all available free alternatives for Mindstorms on Linux, check the Lego Mini-HOWTO at the LDP. For more details on legOS and Forth (two of the most mature alternatives) check out Extreme Mindstorms. [shameless plugs, both]
3) There is, of yet, no way to run legOS or most of the other alternative environments on Mindstorms 2.0 from Linux because there are, ATM, no tools to control the USB towers that are standard with 2.0.
Thanks...
Luis Villa (legOS maintainer)
IAAL,BIANLY
I've been looking for a rotating brush attachment for the past few months. I'd love to build a robot that would wonder aroung my appartment sweeping while I was at work.
It'd be great, Sweepy would just wander aroung until he ran out of power. Much better than a maid.
I'm tire of these lazy robots. They need to start making my life better NOW.
Laugh at my ignorance while I learn Rails - a Real ne
For anyone who picked up Loki's port of Mindrover, they have something very cool on thier site.
This is a set of objects for Mindrover that simulate the functioning of Lego RCX components. They also have pre-built objects that represent two real-world lego cars, and all the appropriate 'wiring' to connect them.
The 'programs' that you create in Mindrover can then be downloaded to the Mindstorms, and you can then watch your Mindrover in the real world.
I think Loki might be getting around to porting it (they mentioned on thier newsgroups that they would be porting some more stuff for it - no link right now, though).
Hey, timothy! Try reading the damn article before posting! Stupid Slashtot -- why aren't your parents supervising your use of the computer, timmy?
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Naah. Don't blame yourself for the lack of social skills in geeks... ;-)
Of COURSE several people can build on the same Lego project. You just specify the general size and looks of the thing and then you build it together. Kind of like programming, but you can be more social and creative and even your old grandma will appreciate the result (or at least she'll pretend to).
Just my 2-stud piece of plastic.
--Bud