U.S. Attack -- More Updates

I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down; major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2 international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here. More as we know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.

Comments

Airline Emergency Contact Numbers

[tino_sup]

Here are emergency contact numbers for the airlines with planes down.
American Airlines - 800-245-0999
United Airlines - 800-923-8555

Hope this helps

Re:Airline Emergency Contact Numbers

[dcgrigsby]

families only please. Please don't flood the lines and make it so families can't find out.

Re:Airline Emergency Contact Numbers

[Odin's Raven]

Logan Airport has set up a Family Assistance Center in the Hyatt Hotel. If you have family members who may have been on one of the flights out of Boston, you can contact this center at 617-568-3100.

This is for family members of those on the AA and UA flights only, not media inquiries, etc.

Re:Airline Emergency Contact Numbers

[Odin's Raven]

Update to my previous post. The family assitance center will be at Logan Airport's Hilton Hotel, not the Hyatt. (The Hyatt will now be the location of a media center.)

MassPort (Massachusett's Port Authority, which runs Logan) currently has information on contact numbers here:


http://www.massport.com/about/advisory.html

and also here (including the Boston Red Cross number, which is apparenlty coordinating volunteers):


http://www.massport.com/about/91101.html

Remember the past

[Anonymous Coward]

"No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win though to absolute victory.... ....with confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us god."

- President Franklin D Roosevelt
December 8th, 1941
Speaking to the American people after the attack on Pearl Harbor

Re:Remember the past

[scanrate]

"I fear all we have done is to wake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve."

Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
After attack on Pearl Harbor
Quoted from http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/generation/ph.htm

Re:Remember the past

[malevolence]

"When this war is over, the japanese language will be spoken only in hell."

Admiral Bill "bull" Halsey
Day after Pearl Harbor Attack
As he looked out over the wreckage.

Re:Remember the past

[Nater]

My sig says it all.

Re:Remember the past

[ziggr]

So when do we start rounding up innocent US citizens and sending them to concentra...er...internment camps?

Tomorrow morning's news will be filled with reports of vandalism and violence against shops run by humans of Middle Eastern descent. Let's try not to avoid another Krystallnacht.

Yes. Remember the past. Don't repeat it.

Re:Remember the past

[rjamestaylor]

We've been attacked. Thousands of innocent civilians killed.

To promise retaliation is not hubris, it's appropriate.

Re:Remember the past

[SubtleNuance]

To promise retaliation is not hubris, it's apporpriate.

no, its childish and immature - to retaliate, to lash out wildly is idiotic.

Re:Remember the past

[chuqui]

> no, its childish and immature - to retaliate, to lash out wildly is

easy to say until someone you know is involved.

Re:Remember the past

[logicnazi]

I agree it may be childish and immature to lash out wildly. However it is probably a good strategy over all.

Sure it may bot be the best response this time but unrestrained response will definatly make it less likely to happen again. Terrorism only works when the response is restrained (they hide in some unidentifiable group and hope to slowly wear down the resolve of the other party).

If we show a consistant tatic of responding irrationally even when the results are perhaps not the best for us in the short run we may be better off in the long term.

In other words if this national hubris (which I find somewhat distasteful myself) pushes the US into milatary action that might not be strictly justified on a cost benifit analysis than it may have served a good purpose.

Re:Remember the past

[Reality Master 101]

Just out of curiosity, since you seem to be so in favor of appeasing these criminals. If you walked into your house and watched your wife being raped, and your daughter was apparently next, would you consider it "childish and immature" to retaliate against them to keep them from further damaging your loved ones?

Or would you walk up to them and try to "negotiate" with them? Plead with them to just leave you alone?

Here's a gun. Would you just watch them as they began on your daughter?

Re:Remember the past

[y10k_complient]

I was listening to Moody radio when a professor of history was being interviewed. He was asked, what event in history can be likened to these events. His response was not Pearl Harbor, but the assassination of Lincoln, for the following reasons:

1. Lincoln's assassination was part of a coordinated effort to kill Lincoln, Johnson, and Seward (sec of state). The attack on Johnson was aborted, and Seward survived a slash to the throat. Terrorist cooridination are two words that don't belong together.
2. Lincoln's assassination was unprecidented and a complete shock. Although there have been terrorist attacks on the US and abroad, there has never been anything of this magnitute. I believe this will dwarf Pearl Harbor in terms of loss of life (2403 vs 50,000+) and long term impact (WWII vs. ??) The ideological, economic, political impact of this attack will take years to play out. I don't think WWIII is ineveitable, but the chages that are effected will be more wide spread than war. Just think of what has happened in just a few hours. The first total grounding of all air. Closure of borders. Stop of financial markets. Evacuation of every government and major building in the US. Even small details speak volumes - Mayor Gulianii, concerning the evacuation of NYC: "Everyone south of Canal Street WALK."

Re:Remember the past

[ncc74656]

History has showed that Roosevelt was aware of the pending attack on Pearl Harbor. This is fact.

No it is not! It is a rumour that has not been confirmed or even shown to be probable.

My understanding is that an experimental radar installation detected the incoming Japanese fleet and fired off a warning to Washington, but it somehow got misrouted or misplaced. As a result, word of the pending attack never got through until it was too late. This would tend to refute the original poster's assertion.

Re:Remember the past

[AxelBoldt]

To promise retaliation is not hubris, it's appropriate.

If your opponent is a muslim engaged in holy war (which is pure speculation right now), then retaliation is stupid: that person *wants* to die in war, because then he will rise directly to paradise, will live forever next to the prophet and will get seven virgins who fulfill all his wishes. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

Re:Remember the past

[Hard_Code]

Doh! A mindless peurile lashing out is *exactly* what terrorists want. So then they can point at the US and say "Oh, look, nobody likes you...and then you go off and bomb a harmless grits-and-trousers factory in the middle of North Africa. How /typical/!!"

Re:Remember the past

[Hard_Code]

And it is also rumored that FDR knew of the attack and *purposefully* ignored it in order to expedite the US's entry into the war. Remember, we were in a depression. (yeah, a lot of historical characters aren't as grand as the history books make out)

Re:Remember the past

[rjamestaylor]

person *wants* to die in war, because then he will rise directly to paradise, will live forever next to the prophet and will get seven virgins who fulfill all his wishes.

Then I believe we should help him along. The point isn't to make the person responisble to regret, it's to punish them for the act and stop them from commiting another.

Re:Remember the past

[Lemmy Caution]

It is America that has been insulated for so long from the vicissitudes of history and its accompanying violence. Most non-Americans have a closer relationship with it than you ever have. In Spain, England, India, the Phillipines, Indonesia, and Mexico, governments and societies are doing exactly what the previous poster has suggested - trying to come to some sort of reconciliation. Of course, this is in coordination with a disciplined and effective security policy whenever it is effective; both carrot and stick are called for when dealing with groups like ETA and the IRA. But the fact is that the US is the last to arrive at this "party," not the first, and your outrage is misinformed.

Re:Remember the past

[jnik]

No it is not! It is a rumour that has not been confirmed or even shown to be probable. That statement is less historical than Oliver Stone's movie JFK.
Um, in October 2000 Congress cleared the commanders of forces in the Pacific of all charges, on the basis that information was intentionally witheld from them. Check out the book "Day of Deceit"--you don't have to agree with the guy's conclusions, but he has a fair number of texts reproduced from documents he obtained under FOIA.

Re:Remember the past

[WNight]

There's a lot of evidence that the government knew the Japanese were up to something, and that they may have known specifics.

There are many reasons though, why they might have sat on the news instead of informing people.

1) This would have let the Japanese know their codes had been broken.

2) They wanted to get into the war and needed a very bloody reason - it made the US the good guys.

They had sent the carrier group out for exercises, and from what I've read, the base was undermanned because a lot of people were given leave. This could have meant that they preserved all they could, without giving it away. And maybe they didn't know exactly what was planned, and decided to simply decentralize everything for a while.

Another theory is that they had decided that carriers were the way to win the war, but they couldn't get rid of all the battleships that were taking up so many resources, and had the support of all the old-timers. Having them sunk could have been a convenient way to achieve many goals at once.

After all, it is *known* that the allies let certain European cities be bombed rather than let the Germans know Enigma had been cracked.

Re:Remember the past

[cavemanf16]

A mindless peurile lashing out is *exactly* what terrorists want.

A small time terrorist group maybe, but this was HUGE! When it shuts down practically the entire world's travel and economy plans, it's time to go about kicking some ass. That's the reason we kicked Japan's ass in WWII, that's why we'll kick ass this time too. Now, if only we knew exactly who did it, that would help. I say for now, we go about first kicking Osama's ass, then Arafat's ass, for promoting a society that celebrates at the destruction and death of innocent lives. And Sadam and his Islamic fundamentalist cronies whined about us ACCIDENTALLY bombing their civilians. What an ass.

Re:Remember the past

[dvdeug]

Krystallnacht is not a good comparison. That was deliberate directed attack by the Nazi's. What response there is tomorrow will be undirected and uncordinated, and unfollowed up.

Re:Remember the past

[Lemmy Caution]

And by that very logic, you justify just the sort of attack that this was.

Re:Remember the past

[DunbarTheInept]

The Jappanese airstrikes were launched by submersible carriers

What color is the sky on your planet? The Japaneese carriers were not submersable. (Well, not more than once anyway.)

Re:Remember the past

[jgerman]

To lash out wildly is wrong of course, but to promise retaliation is not. Retaliation is not even the best word, punishment is.

As I watched the coverage today I saw a clip from Palestine with people celebrating in the streets. I would gladly put a bullet in every one of their heads young and old, and feel no pains in doing so.

When it gets to the point, where it has today, that thousands of innocents are killed because of the attitudes in other countries it no longer matters that humans are the same. There comes a time when we must protect our own, by whatever means necessary. None of those people celebrating in the streets today are innocents, that encourage this type of action.

In my mind there are two ways to handle this. Once the leader is discovered, and he/she will be discovered, the country harbouring the individual must turn him over to us for execution, or we destroy that country killing every man, woman, and child within it's borders. This time I was lucky, so far no one I know was a victim of this attack, but I will condone any action that makes sure that next time my family and friends are not among the casualties.

Re:Remember the past

[SirSlud]

> I would gladly put a bullet in every one of their heads young and old, and feel no pains in doing so.

That is just so darn sad, although it displays as much cowardice and ignorance as the attack itself. In this sense, our reactions to events like these only serve to furthur illumnate the sad irony that humans are, for all intents and purposes, exactly alike. These people's reactions and attitudes are the result of social climate under a military government; capitalist systems also destroy human life (nevermind the planet), although the indirectness and lack of a clear responsible party for the devestation caused by western society (1000 people die here every year in my city alone from the quality of the air) makes it far easier for democratic victims to hide behind a curtain of baseless innocence, and generally allow the collective social conciousness to absolve itself of said responsibility. Yes, it's terribly tragic .. yes, loved ones by the thousands were lost .. my sincere condolances to those who were lost or have lost loved ones as a result. But to kill the responsible party is useless and futile (hell, they killed their own, volountarily to achieve their goal), and in no way addresses the grim reality that only a change in the current political global climate will prevent or discourage similar attempts in the future. One might even suggest it would only furthur cement the anti-US sentiment in the circles that condone such drastic and cowardly attacks.

Re:Remember the past

[rjamestaylor]

So then the US can attcak, and kill thousands of innocent people?

Yes. Of course.

Which means that the other side will retaliate back? Some people just don't understand the whole visous cycle of war and conflict.

And that would be you. Ask Germany, Japan, Italy, heck, Britian about this cycle. War DOES change things. (My point is these four countries are great friends of the US today but at one time we fought them to the death).

Sometime evil just needs to be eradicated.

Re:Remember the past

[jgerman]

Number one, my last name has nothing to do with my nationality. That's a foolish assumption.

Number two they did kill somebody. So many innocent somebody's that we don't even have a count yet. This behavior encourages the kind of destruction that happened yesterday. Before yesterday I would not have cared less what those people thought. But when they give their support for terrorist scum they've crossed the line. If they did not exist it would not have happened.

As far as killing innocent civilians, I never suggested that. I suggested killing the people who are harbouring criminals and who would not give them up.

Re:Remember the past

[jgerman]

No I don't question why these people feel this way, I don't care why these people feel this way. At this point they aren't people to me, they're animals.

You are right and wrong in your statement. You are right in the sense that if we were dealing with rational human beings, investigating both sides could probably resolve the issues. But you're wrong because we are not dealing with rational people. If they were they would have realized that they are only bringing pain and suffering down on themselves tenfold.

I wish that this didn't have to happen as well. But the fact is now that it has. What if somehow the terrorists responsible has gotten their hands on a nuke. Where would NY be now?

Re:Remember the past

[Reality Master 101]

I'll agree though, I also hate rapists. Just not enough to kill them. Actually, I don't hate anyone enough to kill them. Thinking like that would keep me up at night. :-/

You're insane! The rapist is walking toward your daughter. You have a gun in your hand. The guy is 6' 6", 300 pounds. There is no way you are going to physically stop him.

If you would just watch him rape your daughter rather than shoot him, you are a monster. Yes, I would be perfectly, righteously justified in shooting the hell out of him. Curiously, his background or mental health is a nonconsideration when he is in my house threatening my family (or anybody else, for that matter).

Re:Remember the past

[rjamestaylor]

No, that would still be you. I'm not talking about specifics when I mean war is a cycle. I'm talking about the big picture. There has always been wars going on, people retaliating to each other. It never stops, just look back into history and it's blatantly obvious.

In history it is blatantly obvious that evil men with evil intentions cannot be persuaded to stop carnage and death -- someone must rise and fight them. That means killing. And, I mean this, unfortunately innocents will be killed, too.

"Yes. Of course"? You really belive that it's OK to to kill innocent people?

Chalk the "of course" up to my nerves being frayed. I'm not a impassioned professional soldier. Anyway, sad to say, and I mean this, innocents will be killed in war. Especially when the opponent hides behind the civilians knowing our reluctance to kill innocents.

Also, you really think that some of the places in the Middle-east are going to be come pals with the western world, just cause the US fire a few missils into civilian buildings?

I don't care. Stopping the export of terrorism is the main goal. Stopping the support of terrorism would be good, too. Stopping the ideology of terrorism would be fantastic. Welcoming these terror-harboring countries into the world community of nations would be ideal.

Who are you standing for anyway? The govenments? or the people?

My government is of, by and for the people. You, AnarchoFreak, are an advocate of goverment of by and for yourself.

The thing is, the people that flew those planes into the WTC, belived that evil needed to be eradicated to. You are just like them.

Contrarily, I am nothing like them. I do not advocate killing civilians (admitting it will regretably occur is vastly different) and I do not advocate hitting non-military/infrastructure targets for terror purposes.

I stand on the side of the fallible righteous. We're not perfect but we are governed by conscience and principles.

I would turn this around and ask YOU how to stop the cycle? Or do you just hate America so much you hope we go down in the flames and are annihilated?

Re:Remember the past

[rjamestaylor]

And I hope that they do just kill the terroist groups, and not make a tragic situation more tragic by draging more innocent people into this whole thing.

If you had said this, clearly, at the outset I would have said, "Yes, I agree."

Plea for peace

[m2]

FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.

Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.

Re:Plea for peace

[TastyWheat]

I agree. In all of military history, the ultimate weapon is a sacrificial. There is no conventional defense. Only peace can succeed. Anything less will be more deaths.

Re:Plea for peace

[seletz]

Right so. Especially as noone knows who _is_ responsible for this terrible thing.

Re:Plea for peace

[Reality Master 101]

You are SO wrong. Appeasement NEVER works. We tried to appease Hitler, and didn't work. Do you really think that we could have "pleaded" with Hitler for peace? Or "pleaded" with Japan when the bombed Pearl Harbor?

On the other hand, when we bombed Khadafi in the 80s, terrorists didn't screw with us for YEARS.

This requires a huge, huge response. The aggressors set the rules. At the very least, invasion of the country that either sponsored, or allowed to happen, this terrorism must be made.

This "day of infamy" must not be allowed to stand.

Go W!

Re:Plea for peace

[Sir Mix A Lot]

Unfortunately it is not always so clear cut. Peace with one enemy could mean war with another. What good would it do to appease one attacker only to find out you've pissed off another. The only way to avoid such a situation is to prove that you won't take it lying down. It is most likely going to be bad... but in reality what other course of action is there? Even if peace with one enemy doesn't anger another, I bet there are a lot of pissed off people who will learn they can get what they want by blowing up buildings. What good will that lead to? It's a bad situation no matter how you look at it.

Re:Plea for peace

[zulux]

Historically the U.S. Reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE STILL HERE. That is why we have peace, and security and prosperity. We need to kill those responsible so they won't do it again, and to make an example out of them. No Justice, No Peace.

Re:Plea for peace

[Jason Earl]

So what do we do? Wait until this same group of madmen perpetrates another atrocity. Go read your history books if you think that madmen and terrorists can be stopped by simply giving into their demands. Letting this act of aggression pass will only embolden the terrorists so that their next attack will be even worse.

Madmen, despots, and terrorists can only be opposed. Nations and groups that shelter such people can only be considered enemies, and treated as such. This attack will like prove as costly, in terms of human life, as Pearl Harbor and the United States of America will ignore it at its own peril.

This isn't some school yard squabble where nothing more important than pride is on the line. If we allow terrorists to go unpunished then we will never be safe again.

Re:Plea for peace

[Z4rd0Z]

I am a US citizen and I agree wholeheartedly. It should be common knowledge by now that violence breeds violence. That isn't to say that the responsible party should go unpunished. But going to war is to attack many innocent people.

We don't even know who did it yet. I'm already seeing anti Middle Eastern sentiments popping up around me. It makes me sick. I'm also sickened and horrified by the destruction that took place. Still, I think the best thing to do is to remain as calm as possible, and not place blame on the "turban heads" (somebody actually said that to me this morning) or anyone else.

Re:Plea for peace

[FFFish]

Correction: at least 20 000 of you *are not still here.* They died in the attack.

Correction: you don't have peace or security. You just got attacked.

Correction: those responsible are dead. They died attacking.

Correction: there is NO justice possible in this situation. Nor is peace possible.

There has to be retaliation for this, without a doubt. But it will not resolve the problem.

You might also want to think about why this attack occurred. How did the USA get into a position where someone hates it *so* much that they'd suicide themselves in revenge?

Re:Plea for peace

[mesocyclone]

An act of war has been committed against the United States. Worse than that, it was an attack against innocent civilians.

In order to prevent this in the future, the US must hold responsible all countries which harbor and aid terrorists, and take action against them - that action proportional to their involvement and their cooperation in soon to come demands for an end to their support and harbor.

Peace is what the US has been doing. Now it is time for other means - violent means.

The Palestinians, btw, do not do themselves a favor with their demonstrations in the street which celebrated this event.

Re:Plea for peace

[trcooper]

Yeah, let's sit down and talk with these folks. Let's make the rest of the world aware that we will sit back and take terrorist attacks on our soil. Let's just let the UN handle this, what a competent group.

No. When we find the responsible party, they're going to be in a world of hurt. And anyone contemplating anything like this will think twice.

It's easy for you to preach peace. Your country was not attacked. Your people were not killed. After the dust settles, we will find out who is responsible, and there's not going to be any talking going on. This is an act of war, Perl Harbor II is how my representive described it.

I assure you, no US representives will be asking for peace. And it is their responsibility to their citizens in not doing so. Whether this was an internal terrorist or a foriegn terrorist, this should, and will, be dealt with on our terms.

Re:Plea for peace

[pete-classic]

It may be true that violence induces more violence. But pacifism induces slavery.

The large portion of Americans would die on their feet before living on their knees.

-Peter

Re:Plea for peace

[fireant]

Correction: those responsible are dead. They died attacking.

Correction to your correction. Those responsible are cheering every time CNN shows the towers collapsing because they were not on the planes. Some deluded fanatic that thinks he's going to get rewards in the afterlife is dead. He died attacking.

Re:Plea for peace

[Chris Johnson]

"You might also want to think about why this attack occurred. How did the USA get into a position where someone hates it *so* much that they'd suicide themselves in revenge?"

We need to be able to think of that _while_ also retaliating harshly.

The fact that we have been brutally attacked does not make us automatically righteous. I've felt for a long time that US interests, in many ways, have been waging war on the rest of the world- but more like a siege. Mostly we have not been gunning people down- mostly our corporations have not been gunning people down- and we certainly haven't engaged in this sort of all-out assault recently.

We're up again, and clearly we're going to be smashing the hell out of _somebody_... but we have got to take a minute afterwards, to ask: just how unprovoked was it? What have we been doing? Are we even aware of what our country may have been doing in our names? If more than half of us don't even _vote_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing with its massive weaponry and economic coercion, is that okay?

It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics. The fact that they are fanatics does not make us angels, and we gotta remain aware of that as we move into a 21st century and see multinational organizations taking over from nation-states.

And boy, are we ever in the 21st century. :(

Re:Plea for peace

[Midnight Thunder]

Actually, rolling over can help. By not retaliating you don't give the other party a reason to retaliate. Just look at what is happening the middle east. Who took the first tooth and who is going to take the last? Sometimes it take more might to do nothing that pulling out all the stops. The last thing we need is World War 3.

Re:Plea for peace

[localman]

Have you ever considered that today's attack was a counterstrike - against America?

I won't offer any trite solution - I don't know whether a counterstrike of our own would be effective or not. I'm not saying that there's an obvious path, but what I do know is that today's act was not a random act.

We don't think we're at war because our homeland is (was) so isolated from the front lines, but America is involved in many wars through funding. And wars don't happen without funding. It's almost surprising that we're not attacked more often.

Today is an awful day. I am heartsick at all the loss that has occurred. But I am even more terrified of what is to come.

Re:Plea for peace

[RocketScientist]

Yes, we need "Peace in Our Time".

Who said that?

Neville Chamberlain. After meeting with Adolf.

schmuck.

For the record: Negotiating with terrorists DOES NOT WORK. It's like negotiating with a hydra: Set peace with one, and the others will still attack. You're making the broad and stupid assumption that there is such a thing as a "terrorist organization" with rules that all of the terrorists follow. It doesn't work that way. The "Real IRA" popped up after the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland, and all of the Palestinian terrorist organizations that used to follow Arafat don't anymore, because they just want to kill bad guys, not solve the original problem.

Germany and Japan don't seem to have attacked anyone since we settled that dispute back in the 1940's. I don't see a Spanish Armada any more. The British are still gone from the United States after the little hullaboo in the 1770's. History seems to bear out several cases where taking violence to the opposing force keeps them from attacking again. It also bears out that if you leave the opposition with enough strength that you'll continue to have problems after a lamely negotiated peace agreement: Iraq, Germany post World War 1, the Real IRA, Hamas.

I'm not finding a lot of historical precedent that bodes well for the safety of the US if we don't track these folks down and wipe them out.

Re:Plea for peace

[haizi_23]

I am a citizen of the U.S., and watched the WTC collapse from my office window this morning. I sort of agree with you -- I certainly disagree that we should immediately rush off to kill someone. The fact is that we're being baited.

Obviously, everyone who knows anthing about our military history and us as a people, knows that our first reaction will be to grab our guns and start shouting for blood. That's the move they want us to make. We need to be smart and do things in a considered manner. Those who are responsible DO need to be punished. But there are other ways than sending a phalanx of bombers somewhere to rain fire and brimstone on their heads.

For one thing, that's obviously what these maniacs think they're doing to us -- just retribution for our various unpopular policies.

I don't know what the right move is, but more is at stake here than our national pride and safety. It could certainly spark an immense international conflict, and I'd advocate doing a lot of serious thinking before walking into WWIII. If we have to act with violence, then we should do so -- but I don't think that it's at all clear right now that violence is the best alternative.

Re:Plea for peace

[Zachary Kessin]

Lets hope W is not another Nevill Chaberline. I would love to see Peace in Our Time. But not at the expense of appeasing terorists dictators and thugs. When we find out who did this we need to make them understand exactly how big a mistake attacking the USA is. And make sure that the entire world knows it.

On 4 July 1976 an Air France Jet was hijacked and sitting on the ramp at Entebie Uganda. The people who did it were threating to kill all the Israelis and Jews on board. Until an Israeli special forces unit came in and took them out. Guess what no one has hijacked a jet leaving Israel since. The only way to deal with dictators and thugs it it hit them so hard that they don't get up again. Ever.

The United States can not appease these people nor ever give in. They need to live in fear that at any second a flight of B52's or a team of Navy Seals could pop up and kill them. If they have such fear maybe they won't do this again.

Re:Plea for peace

[Watts Martin]

At this point counter-attacking is irrational chiefly because there's no one to attack. I'm not a big fan of our President-Select, but I don't believe he's going to run off and bomb Afghanistan because pundits on Fox News are chanting 'Bin Laden Bin Laden Bin Laden.'

However, the reality, even for a bleeding-heart liberal pacifist like myself, is that for all intents this was an act of war. It was a stunningly sophisticated and well-coordinated attack. (The most plausible argument against Bin Laden's responsibility is that it would be a stretch even for his resources.) If these planes had been from a known military force rather than hijacked passenger planes, we'd declare war before the sun set.

So sure, at this point in time counter-attacking is irrational. But that doesn't mean that any retaliation is irrational.

Will retaliation "solve" anything? To turn the question around, how do you "solve" terrorism? It's worthy to ask whether US policy toward the Middle East fans the flames of anti-American sentiment, but that's an entirely separate issue from this attack. The lives of US citizens are already at risk. The lives of lots of people all around the world are already at risk. The risk isn't of American military attacks, it's of more attacks just like these. Will not retaliating address that?

Re:Plea for peace

[FFFish]

Touche'

And when those who are responsible are positively identified, fry 'em. Each and every one of them.

And then be prepared for the retaliation. It's tit-for-tat when dealing with terrorist organizations.

Re:Plea for peace

[localman]

When we find the responsible party, they're going to be in a world of hurt. And anyone contemplating anything like this will think twice.

You realize that this is probably exactly what the people in charge of this attack said. America stepped on them, so they decided they'd teach us a lesson. After their attack America would think twice about stepping on others.

Well, it didn't work. We don't even know who did this and we're already ready to kill them.

And our counterattack won't stop terroroism either. So far our "tough" policy on terrorism (while ignoring the causes) has led to today.

Re:Plea for peace

[Hilary Rosen]

Just because someone approves of this does not make them responsible. There are many reasons for people around the world to wish harm to the US. Most of them involve the Middle East. If the US government won't even talk about the possibility that Israel is a racist state, how can they be surprised when those affected by racism strike back?

Note: I personally believe that killing people is never the right answer. Destroying your current enemies will only earn you more.

Re:Plea for peace

[coolgeek]

Dude, you must be out of your mind. The US chose to allow the parties involved to resolve their own differences. This is NOT choosing sides. If anything, the US choosing to stand aside is indicative of a reversal of our previous support, which I believe is in response to the changing opinion of the American public that there is no hope to resolve the conflicts in the Middle East through diplomatic intervention. My attitude has changed over the years from one of hope, to "fuck 'em...let 'em slaughter each other" If the Palestinians are involved, this is a grave political mistake for them...Up till yesterday, I was starting to believe that the Israelis were equally as insane as the Palestinians. Now I'm in favor of getting mideavel on the responsible parties.

And give me a break, peace has never worked in the Middle East. The people never wanted it. Sure, there was mutual tolerance of each other, shrouded in resentment. This is not mutual acceptance, a key ingredient in a lasting peace process. Some lyrics from an american classic song (War in the East, War in the West): Everyone MUST have a place...All this hate MUST become a memory.

Re:Plea for peace

[jafac]

There are only two ways to break the cycle of violence.

1. Kill them all. Every last one of them. And anyone who ever cared about them. No one will be left to carry out revenge. No future generations will rise up.

OR

2. Forgive.

Apparently, neither of these are really an option, so we'll be pedalling this cycle for a good long while to come.

- - - -
But really, "Go W"? Do you have any idea how rediculous that sounds? We'll be lucky if that bastard doesn't round up any person who is a moslem in the US and put them in camps for orderly disposal.
I think that the US people have learned, and will soon have the lesson reinforced, what happens when you elect a president with WEAK foreign experience.
I'm all for rallying around the flag, but I refuse to support this charlatan of a leader.

Re:Plea for peace

[Jace of Fuse!]

Oh, we're being attacked, let's blow something up rather than solve the problem or engage in constructive prevention.

Most Americans have never stepped foot in foreign soil. Even fewer yet pay attention to events in foreign countries. To "hate Americans" for "what they've done" is quite a bit more irrational than for Americans to hate Terrorists, who consistantly kill innocent people instead of targeting threatening forces.

America doesn't attack unprovoked. Consider America provoked. Any counter-strike is a logical, if highly unfortunately expected outcome.

All those people cheering at the destruction of the trade centers should be a clue to the rest of the world how fucked up they are. They don't seem to grasp the concept that 20,000 innocent people that have never done anything to them are now dead.

I hope justice is served in the form of all of their deaths, but I certainly won't cheer about it.

Re:Plea for peace

[SubtleNuance]

FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.

Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.

... i agree - relax people, do NOT think that a violent reaction is right - please, DO NOT react like schoolyard children. Reflect, THINK(!) we do not need more voilence - the people you kill in %SOME_FOREIGN_LAND% will also have children and familly.

Re:Plea for peace

[Ian Wolf]

This is not Flamebait, its an opinion. One that is as seriously misguided as the response about someone soon joining the stone age.

We, the United States, must proceed with caution and great care. Immediate retalition almost always misses the mark, and does nothing but strengthen the resolve of our enemies and push those on the fence firmly into the arms of those enemies. I do feel that retaliation is in order, but it must be precise. AND! it needs to be directed at the right people.

Re:Plea for peace

[coolgeek]

It is YOUR crappy airport security that allowed these people through.

I disagree. It is our complacency that allowed them to breach security. Complacency should not be confused with Incompetence, in my book. I boarded a flight in the past three months where they did not even ask me the basics questions about how I handled my baggage. I knew that the ticket agent knew what she was supposed to do, and how to do it, and was probably capable of doing it well. She just didn't feel it was necessary any longer.

And if you don't think the US is capable of infiltrating _every_ plane in the offending country and ramming them into _every_ major landmark on their soil, you are a fool. Our guys would probably even live to tell about it, too. Thing is, we have laws that prevent us from doing exactly that. Funny thing too, the laws seem to be enough deterrent for the average United States Citizen. The attack was well planned, well executed, some might even say impressive. The biggest mass murder in history. On the scale of expertise available in the world, it was rank amateur. The Palestinians can rally in the streets today, and celebrate the mass extermination of human beings. I doubt they will have any streets in a few years, whether the US retaliates or not. That kind of hatred is a spiritual disease that will eventually lead to their own destruction.

Re:Plea for peace

[mesocyclone]

The US Government does not provide funding to terrorists. I am aware of, and ashamed of NorAid, as an American of Irish ancestry. But it is *not* a government policy to support it.

Re:Plea for peace

[Oztun]

Most likely this was retaliation for a war in the middle east. Americans are asleep to whats going on and most of you don't think twice when people die in the middle east. This was an obvious act of retaliation against Americans on our turf for a change. This isn't the start of a war we are in the middle of one.

Re:Plea for peace

[merlin_jim]

Actually, many historians have said that war is a failure of the diplomatic process.

Until Hitler, the bulk of humanity believed that war is never the answer. Hitler (and others that were not quite so well known at the time, such as Napolean or Genghis Khan) was a megalomaniac and this changed things. Up until then, the main goal of war was not wholesale slaughter, the killing of people, but convincing your enemy you are right. Either in annexing land or in diplomacy or whatever.

But Hitler convinced us that sometimes you just have to stop talkinga and start dropping bombs.

Re:Plea for peace

[SubtleNuance]

I think everybody's first reaction will indeed be to annihilate

right. But with reason, with hind-sight(sp?) reasonable measures, with REASON(!) please, do not whip people around you - do not believe that might is right, might-is-right is what leads to this horror.

the rest of the world has been rebuilding from the first 50 years of war in the world - WWI && WWII - do not confuse yourself, this is the same horror that has been felt/lived in the rest of the world.... they have set a course in complete and total opposition to the one set by USA, do you think this is from the wisdom gained from this event??

Try and learn, live, grow - accept fate - but please do not replicate mistakes... do not think that physical retribution will make ANYTHING right again.

Re:Plea for peace

[norton_I]

You have to consider the possibility that there are some people whose way of life is fundamentally incompatable with yours. I believe that anyone capable of organizing the hijacking of several commerical airplanes and using them as weapons against both civillian and military targets in an unprovoked sneak attack is not someone that I can make amends with without making an unacceptable compromise of my integrity.

If possible, pepetrators of this kind of terrorism should be made to see the error of their ways, in the hopes of preventing future incidents. However, if that proves to be impossible, the only recourse is total annihalation.

I am a peaceful person. I would do just about anything to insure that we could all live harmoniously. But if other people force the issue into a "me or them" situation, I pick me, every time, and will defend that decision with ultimate force.

Re:Plea for peace

[Ian Wolf]

His reasoning doesn't stink. A little overly optimistic, but you apparently haven't been reading the news for the last couple months.

Israel has been waging an all out war on Hamas, and their killing innocents by the hundreds. As a result, Hamas is gaining popular support by leaps and bounds, and so is Saddam Hussein as he's been openly supporting Hamas. News reports have shown that the Iraqi flag is almost as prevalent as the Hamas flag in Palestinian refugee camps.

A complete pacifistic reaction does nothing. Not even a change in U.S. intervention in the middle east would change anything. Unmitigated reactionary violence however is tantamount to disaster. The US response must be precise, measured, and carried out with absolute lethality.

Re:Plea for peace

[issachar]

Peace and compromise are not always the best way to go. Neville Chamberlain declared peace in our time after speaking with Hitler, and then the second world war happened. Compromise was definately not the best option in that case.

Neither is compromise the best option now. The United States should do it's best to identify the larger supporting organisations, and strike them so that the are unable to do this again. (We can't make them not want to do it again). This will involve killing many people, and it will involve collateral damage to civilians and loss of life for US military personel. That is unfortunate, but it should still be done.

The Canadian response, (I am a Canadian), should be to support the US in whatever action it takes. No more fence sitting. These are our friends and neighbours and they need our support.

Re:Plea for peace

[Noel]

Completely inaccurate paraphrase. Please try thinking before replying.

I'll rephrase:

Retaliation will not reach those who performed these attacks -- they are dead.

Retaliation will cause more hatred, resulting in more terrorists and terrorism.

Retaliation can not eliminate terrorism.

Please note, I am not arguing against justice. I hope that when we find out who is responsible for these acts, they will receive the punishment due to them for their dastardly attacks on innocent people.

I *am* arguing against a reliance on retaliation as the solution to terrorism. Terrorism doesn't spring out of nothing. People aren't born terrorist. We need to find and deal with the *causes* of terrorism rather than just reacting to *acts* of terrorism. That's what I meant about moving it to a *different* *arena*.

Our responsibility does not end when we find those responsible for the terrorist acts. We must take responsibility for finding out which acts and attitudes encourage terrorism, and eradicate them wherever they occur. We must be careful not to teach that unrestrained violence is the best solution. How many of the world's terrorists have developed their abilities while they were US-supported freedom fighters?

Yes, there will always be *some* terrorism. We must *always* justly punish the acts of terrorism. But punishment alone will not eradicate terrorism. And if it becomes vengeance rather than just punishment, then we are actually encouraging more terrorism.

If we can change our arrogant national attitude, we will give others less cause for terrorism. It's much better to prevent terrorism than to punish terrorism.

Re:Plea for peace

[issachar]

Prosecution requires that you arrest those responsible. Those responsible are almost certainly being protected by anti-US regimes. That requires military action.

(Incidentally they're the same regimes that were saying a few days ago at the UN conference about what an evil abuser of human rights the US is).

Re:Plea for peace

[mesocyclone]

There is a tremendous moral difference between targeting civilians, and hitting civilians as a side effect of military action. The US took extraordinary precautions to minimize civilian casualties in both Iraq and Servia. But nobody is perfect.

Again, the difference is moral. Just War may kill civilians, but it doesn't target civilians. Terrorism targets civilians.

Re:Plea for peace

[trexl]

With all due respect, counterstrikes occur against those that struck you. Attacking civilian targets is deplorable, cowardly, etc. If these actions are not considered an act of war, than an act of serial murder on American soil. Those responsible should be punished either militarily for the Pentagon attack or through the American judicial system for the World Trade Center.

As for the original plea for peace, bullies and cowards, one in the same show there true colors when the tables are turned. Those that cheer the this country's hardship as victory need to feel the fear that they would impose upon us, so that they do not perform the same actions. Perhaps it is an endless cycle, but only because those that have been shown mercy mistake it for weakness.

John F. Hurst
'strength exists where the will has defeated pain'

Re:Plea for peace

[JabberWokky]

There are only two ways to break the cycle of violence.
1. Kill them all. Every last one of them. And anyone who ever cared about them. No one will be left to carry out revenge. No future generations will rise up.
OR
2. Forgive.

Since number two is not incumbent upon us, and we can not force another group to forgive, you seem to have hit upon the one solution that works.

I'm not saying it's a *good* solution, but the way to defeat terrorism is to eliminate terrorists. Since the initial killing of non-military personnel is generally caused by religious or philosophical beliefs taken to an extreme, the only way to deal with them is to eliminate those beliefs - eliminate those who believe.

--
Evan (who just said fuck it, and is replying directly at the beginning of the thread... read there).

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

"It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics."

I remember when OKC happened Rush LImbaugh started calling for bombing of "whoever is responsible". Once we found that it was an American and that bombing "whoever is responsible" meant bombing Michigan Rush shut up. I guess killing innocent people is much more palatable in Iran or Iraq then Michigan.
In the end our tendency to look at Arab and Muslim life as basically worthless will determine the scope of the attack. Not the desire to punish the people who are actually guilty. My guess is many many innocent people will die as a result of our retaliation which will make us exactly like the monsters who committed these crimes.

Re:Plea for peace

[1010011010]

Do you honestly think they they will care that we have forgiven them, should we do that? Or that our forgiveness would change their behavior? They're on a holy war. We're the Great Satan. I'm not thinking that our forgiveness will mean a lot to them.

Re:Plea for peace

[_Swank]

add to that that he has attacked the World Trade Center before (1993) and that 3 weeks ago he threatened that they would be carrying out an attack on the US of unprecedented proportions.

On the other hand, very few news organizations (and no respectable ones that I've) have named Bin Laden the aggressor. His name has come up often today in discussions on possible culprits along with the Hamas, DFLP, and a few other groups. But all news outlets I have seen this morning have cautioned against jumping to conclusions as to who actually perpetrated quite possibly the worst terrorist act ever.

Re:Plea for peace

[mesocyclone]

Please notice the tense. I said the US Government "does not" provide funding to terrorists. I never said we didn't in the past, although in most cases the funding was to rebels, not terrorists.

Re:Plea for peace

[1010011010]

The people who did it were threating to kill all the Israelis and Jews on board. Until an Israeli special forces unit came in and took them out. Guess what no one has hijacked a jet leaving Israel since. The only way to deal with dictators and thugs it it hit them so hard that they don't get up again. Ever.

I agree. Fights should be avoided. However, if you're going to get into a fight, make sure that the other guy never, ever, fights you again. Fight to win all future fights.

Re:Plea for peace

[IronChef]

I have heard that the UNofficial Soviet policy on terrorism was this: if a Soviet was held hostage somewhere, the KGB would catch someone from the bad guy's organization... and send him back to his buddies in a series of small boxes.

Violence needs to be countered with overwhelming violence. No half measures.

Re:Plea for peace

[jafac]

You misread what I said.

Neither of those options I spoke of were legitimate options, nor were they likely to happen, nor were they "My Recommended Courses of Action".

I merely said that they are the only two ways to break the cycle of violence.

I regret that the cycle of violence WILL be perpetuated. And I accept that there's nothing anybody can do about it. This is the first dark day, of MANY dark days to come.

Re:Plea for peace

[Ian Wolf]

You have got to be a complete idiot.

the target does not have to be absolutely accurate. scorching afghanistan and removing it from the map will remove nearly all of bin laden's ground troops and all of his civilian support. it may even make him a target from his own people.

Do you honestly think the people of afghanistan have any clue? Sure, some do, especially within the ruling Taliban government. BUT, many people in afghanistan are not a party to the Taliban. A many people in that nation have taken up arms against the Taliban. Some of them have not forgotten that many Americans and Brits fought alongside them against the Soviets.

Besides, Bin Laden isn't even an afghani, he's a Saudi and his supporters are scattered all over the world. By your grand scheme, we would have to Nuke Iran, Sudan, Yemen, and large portions of Ethiopia, Somalia, and countless other nations.

if you commit a terrorist act, or you know someone that commits or is planning a terrorist act against this country -- you should die. the trickle down effect of this will rid the world of this plague.

OR, you mobilize a couple billion Muslims against you. You kill one innocent, and their family is more likely to become a supporter of Bin Laden then the people who killed their loved one. The more you kill the more you drive into the arms of your enemy. If you don't believe me open any history book. One only needs to look at the numerous examples out there. The rise of Christianity in Ancient Rome, the aforementioned invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviets, the fall of the Khmer Rouge as well as any other Despotic system.

Re:Plea for peace

[Kierthos]

If retaliation will get the people who planned and organized this attack, then it's all good, in my opinion. Do you honestly think that the planners of this attack were the ones who were hijacking the planes?

And I happen to believe that if you show what happens to the people who organize and plan terrorist attacks, it does deter those who are still out there and haven't been caught/punished yet.

Lastly, it's not any national attitude. Some of these terrorist fruit loops hate the U.S. for no logical or sane reason. These are the same people who quote the Koran to give an excuse for killing Christians and Jews, while simultaneously ignoring the parts of the Koran that preach the ways of peace to the other peoples of God (which, coincidentally are Christians and Jews).

Kierthos

Re:Plea for peace

[fireant]

I don't see any other option here. It's not like it was a simple guerilla-style attack on a prominent US government official. It was a massive, high profile attack against civillians.

This was much more than a terrorist attack. It was a provocation of the entire country. I don't see how this person or group would expect to survive. The only answer is that this group expects a massive US response. They want us to go to war... with someone. The only thing I can think of is that this is a group that wants to provoke the US into a war with the entire Middle Eastern Muslim population.

I don't know if the orchestrator is actually a militant Muslim, or pretends to be in order to get kamikazes, or what. It could be an actual militant Muslim group that wants a direct confrontation with the US, or it could be someone who wants us to think that it is a militant Muslim group. Whatever it is, this group is clearly trying to get the US to destroy itself.

Man, one thing's for sure, this event is going to bring out the conspiracy nut in all of us.

Re:Plea for peace

[crucini]

The US chose to allow the parties involved to resolve their own differences. This is NOT choosing sides.

Not really. The US provides weapons and aid to Israel. If the US simply withdrew from the Middle East, Israel would be gone very soon.

Re:Plea for peace

[dvdeug]

> If the US government won't even talk about the possibility that Israel is a racist state, how can they be surprised when those affected by racism strike back?

What the US government won't talk about is condeming Israel for being a racist state, and not talking about most of the rest of the middle east or any other racist countries in the world.

Re:Plea for peace

[sydb]

Such evidence is called "circumstantial" and you can't find someone guilty based on circumstantial evidence.

Re:Plea for peace

[Flower]

Game theory advocates always striking back at terrorists.

http://www.spectacle.org/995/scorp.html

I see no reason to give the parties responsible for this atrocity any quarter once they have been identified. I would not sit down with them to make peace as, after viewing the crime they committed, I do not find them trustworthy. When they do not have the ability to sting any more then and only then would I be willing to parley and pursue peace. Until that time, I am mor than happy with the concept of using all available resources to neutralize their ability to do me and mine harm.

Re:Plea for peace

[gorilla]

The US Government does not provide funding to terrorists.

Yes it does. The Contras being the best known examples. The US tends to act in short term goals, if the government of country X is one which the US currently opposes, then it will make short tatical actions, even if the long term results are bad. That's why Iraq became a problem, because they opposed Iran, and therefore must be the US's friends, right?

Re:Plea for peace

[FFFish]

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Keep that in mind as the US retaliates.

Re:Plea for peace

[Genom]

I'm all in favor of retaliation - but I think you need to calm down for a second and think about what you're suggesting.

Bringing out the nukes is the WORST thing we can do. Think about it. Once one nuke is in the air, if the intended target country has ANY nuclear capability, they will use it. In response, more are fired, and soon, every major city on the planet is a glass parking lot, and the air is unbreathable for a few hundred years ANYWHERE on the planet.

No - I say we find out who's responsible, and punish THEM harshly - as harshly as our system will allow - in public - in front of the eyes of the world - and show EVERYONE what happens to those who fsck with us. But, we need to be ABSOLUTELY SURE we have the right people - and that we don't involve any more innocents in this than we have to - preferably none at all. I fear that we will take more drastic measures, however, and more innocent lives will be lost in the name of Justice.

Re:Plea for peace

[dimator]

I think GWB is going to surprise a lot of people during this crisis, and during his term.


The mother fucker mispronounced "appropriate" not 1 hour ago!

(Luckily, the best minds in the world are at his side.)

Re:Plea for peace

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Aggressors don't always set the rules.

"Vietnam", "Afghanistan", "Retreat from Russia"

In the latter, the Russian winter beat back Napolean, in the first two terrorism was able to hang on for years in the face of an aggressor.

>This requires a huge, huge response. The aggressors set the rules. At the very least, invasion of the country that either
>sponsored, or allowed to happen, this terrorism must be made.

We don't know this was state sponsored. Clearly if it was, that country is in the deepest doo-doo imaginable. But it is most likely that this is done by a relatively small group of people; and may very well not be state related at all.

If you really believe that invasion of the country that allowed this to happen should be done, what happens if that country unknowably turns out to be Canada?

Re:Plea for peace

[Zeinfeld]

Not to be mean or anything, but the IRA has continually bombed the hell out of the place while people have been pleading for peace.

The total casualties in NI over the twenty odd years of the conflict were about 1,600 for both sides. Of those about 450 were catholics murdered by protestant paramilitaries. 250 ish were paramilitaries, most of whom either blew theselves up making bombs or were shot by other paramillitaries.

The observation decks of the WTC alone have more tourists on an average day.

Greater firepower as you put it is irrelevant. The UK is still one of the top ten millitary powers, the IRA had less than 500 active members, the protestant factions slightly more and the INLA about 50. No action has ever involved more than light arms and most of the bombs have used home made explosives.

The INLA ceased to operate after its members killed each other in a dispute of the extortion rackets. The IRA suspended operations for a variety of reasons, in part in exchange for self government of NI but chiefly because 20 years of violence had achieved nothing.

The issue is not greater firepower, war is diplomacy by other means. Regardless of whether Bin Laden is proven to be responsible the US will demand that the Taleban hand him over pronto. The demand for his capture will likely be worded in the same manner as the demands made on Serbia after the assasination of the Arch Duke. I do not expect them to accept the terms and the likely outcome will be a war.

Much more important than the firepower against the Taleban will be which side Pakistan and Iran take. At this point I suspect that even the Pakistan generals who have been supporting the Taleban will realise that the game is up. Iran is not very likely to support the Taleban, particularly if the democraticaly elected leaders use the excuse to liquidate the clerics.

Re:Plea for peace

[SubtleNuance]

...your a fucking idiot.

this kind of cluelessness, complete lack of perspective, is why America is so copletelly detested.

+5 Insightfull(!)

if there are that many americans who would rally around your blind and idiotic opinions - you prove exactly why your country was attacked

Its sad but true... lots of non-americans clearly see, clearly understand that america's sanctimonious response is typical but not surprising...

Re:Plea for peace

[Stephan Schulz]

This is a typical bit of retoric, but is it true? Anyone who beleives violence never solves anything needs to have a talk with the city fathers of Carthage. That particular conflict was ended with violence. It took three attempts, but by the third time the Romans figured out their problem -- on their previous attempts, they hadn't applied enough violence.

And as a result we still hail the glorious Roman republic, which brought us peace and prosperity till this day...

The assumption that there is a small group of evil people and that all we need to do is to somehow neutralize them is naive. Every action leads to a like reaction. By turning on the heat, we are creating more victims, more martyrs, and more potential terrorists. Just look at the current example: Have you ever seen so many people shouting for blood? Any retaliation is likely to wake similar feelings on the other side. Any retaliation that is not extremely limited, well targeted, and justified to the world is likely to cause a lot of justified similar feelings all over the world.

Somebody else already posted the famous Gandhi quote: "An eye for an eye, and the world goes blind".

What I like about this quote is that it shows a certain symmetry. You cannot usually solve a conflict by assuming "I'm right, and I'll just keep on hitting the other guy until he sees the light". Most of the time, being right is a matter of perspective. Very few people consciously do deeds they consider evil.

Re:Plea for peace

[rjamestaylor]

If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace.

Thankfully, our Representatives will not be swayed by such spineless dribble. We will give the only rational response: Id, Locate, Eradicate.

Stay out of our way.

Re:Plea for peace

[Reality Master 101]

I think we all recognize that Bush isn't studied in world politics. Gore is. Bush is running his administration from 'gut instincts' making CEO-type decisions. This is exactly the kind of complicated world-issue that calls for a statesman of a leader,

Almost no president, with the exception of Bush, Sr, has significant foreign policy experience (particularly Clinton). I think being a world leader requires character, resolve and, yes, intelligence, not necessarily "study". Bush has the pointy heads around him to give the history, if it's relevent. But this particular "world issue" requires someone with guts. This is about defending the United States of America from an act of war.

Like I said, I think GWB is going to surprise a lot of people.

Re:Plea for peace

[localman]

Thanks for your well thought out reply. With regards to this being a counterstrike, however, I would ask how much you really know about the bloodshed that America funds and promotes overseas. There are real injustices perpetrated by the American government on others that surpass what was seen today. Much of it has been carrying on for decades. And yes, civilians are involved.

Today was wrong, but there is a reason that some of the people in the middle east are celebrating. It's not because they are evil, it is because they feel about us exactly how we feel about the attackers today: that justice must be served by any means necessary.

I wish I there was a way out.

Re:Plea for peace

[Hilary Rosen]

To paraphrase Churchill: If you don't jaw-jaw you'll get war-war.

Re:Plea for peace

[ksheff]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the State Dept has now told Israel they can do whatever they wish with the PLO.

Re:Plea for peace

[Ian Bicking]

1. Kill them all. Every last one of them. And anyone who ever cared about them. No one will be left to carry out revenge. No future generations will rise up. OR 2. Forgive.

Since number two is not incumbent upon us, and we can not force another group to forgive, you seem to have hit upon the one solution that works.

Mmm... yes, genocide always works pretty well. We can just kill anyone around the world who hates the United States -- what, there must be a few dozen such people, right? -- and then everyone left over will like us a lot.

Oh, wait, there's millions of people around the world that hate the United States. After killing all of them, do you think all the people left will feel good about the United States?

Terrorism comes from injustice. I don't mean to imply that terrorists are then on the side of justice -- but only that if people are treated justly and allowed redress for their grievences, they will not resort to self-destructive, violent behavior like this. This is not a call for forgiveness in particular, but rather for justice. Indiscriminate bombing -- hell, nearly any bombing at all -- is not justice; nor is murder. Justice must be patient and cannot be formed in anger.

Re:Plea for peace

[Planesdragon]

those responsible for OKC were subjected to the fullest extent of the law. Tim McVeigh was killed, and his accomplice faces life in prison. There was no organization beyond them that we could find.

If McVeigh had been an alien terrorist, and was hiding in a country that refused to extradite him, an act of war to bring him to justice would have been appropriate.

If McVeigh had been part of the rogue breakaway state of Michigain, which had declared a "jihad" against the US, that rogue state would have been invaded and conqured very quickly.

But we states don't rebel in the US--they just play politics, and let the rest of us get on with our lives instead of engaging in terrorism.

Re:Plea for peace

[Zeinfeld]

US citizens regularly provide funding to terrorist organisations. Go look up NorAid. You will find that it is a 'charitable' front for the IRA. Does this mean that the British government has a legitimate excuse to nuke the US?

Actually the US has banned fund raising by the IRA on several occasions. In addition the US assistence to the UK under the joint intelligence agreement is considerable.

The situation with the Taleban is very different. In the first place the Taleban do not have the degree of control of the country that would allow them to expel or arrest bin Laden, on the other hand they have shown absolutely no inclination or desire to do so.

The Taleban will probably be issued with an ultimatum, either they liquidate Bin Laden themselves or allow US troops to do it for them. Meanwhile the Taleban themselves will have their arms supply from Pakistan cut.

My informed guess is that the ultimatum will be such that the Taleban will be unable to agree to its terms. It is a fractious coalition at best. The chances it will not stay in one piece are good.

Regardless of whether the Taleban did or did not have a role in the attacks and whether that was active or merely passive, providing Bin Laden with a base to operate from, the fact is that only Pakistan would be at all upset if the regime went away

Re:Plea for peace

[PsiPsiStar]

Or maybe because bombing those responsible might have started with Rush's radio station.

Re:Plea for peace

[Ian Bicking]

Guess what no one has hijacked a jet leaving Israel since. The only way to deal with dictators and thugs it it hit them so hard that they don't get up again. Ever.

Israel has hardly been successful. They've only managed to become the biggest thugs on the block. They don't have peace, stability, or justice in their nation. The path they've chosen will never lead to anything but violence -- the only success they might have would be that they will perpetrate the violence rather than be victimized by it. I could imagine no worse model the US could follow, though unfortunately I can imagine model more likely.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

" Then, I think we should retailiate against that group AND the country that is protectiong them"

Once again I think we will indeed retaliate if the country is not the united states. The point is how do you retaliate against a country? If you are the Untied States you simply drop bombs killing innocents as well as whoever you think is guilty. This makes you exactly like the terrorists.

These terrorists are attacking the US citizens because they hold the United States responsible for some act or another. Instead of killing the actual person(s) responsible they kill many civilians in order to "retaliate against a country". Just like you would have us do. If we do that there is no difference between them and us. Two sides of the same coin.

Re:Plea for peace

[m2]

For the record: Negotiating with terrorists DOES NOT WORK. It's like negotiating with a hydra: Set peace with one, and the others will still attack. You're making the broad and stupid assumption that there is such a thing as a "terrorist organization" with rules that all of the terrorists follow.
[...]
I'm not finding a lot of historical precedent that bodes well for the safety of the US if we don't track these folks down and wipe them out.

So, I'm the one making the stupid assumption, uh? Which country are you going to declare war against? War is an armed conflict between two sovereign nations. Precisely because this is a terrorist act you can't point your guns to some country and be done with it. In doing so, the U.S.A. will be drawn into starting a war, much like you were drawn into taking parts in a war because of Pearl Harbor. Justice is to be made, but war is not the way.

Re:Plea for peace

[the_quark]

There is a third option, which is what we were successfully able to do in World War II and its aftermath: Beat them until they beg for mercy and then help them with open and generous hearts.

Appeasement is not the answer; we must show strength, not weakness. Once they sue for peace, would should help them rebuild their lives. But between now and then a lot of people need to die to keep this type of thing from being a part of the nightly news instead of just a once-in-a-lifetime event.

Re:Plea for peace

[anshil]

I'm just thinking what must go in a mind of person that flies a 7?7 into a building with 10 thousend of persons inside.

What personal pain such a person must have gone through? What has he seen? what was done to him? what pain must a person go through to be ready to to do such act? Had he to see to watch his family die? I just can't imagine what such person went trough.

I believe to fight such attacks in future is best done in the long run to fight the causes which could raise such a pain in a person, btw: which must be highly educted, not everbody can fly a boing.

It's obvios that not the airlines pilot steered the plane, why should he? he will be dead eitherway.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

" those responsible for OKC were subjected to the fullest extent of the law. Tim McVeigh was killed, and his accomplice faces life in prison."

Yes this is why our way of life is better then anybody elses. This is why America is decent place to live.

"If McVeigh had been an alien terrorist, and was hiding in a country that refused to extradite him, an act of war to bring him to justice would have been appropriate. "

I really don't think so. Declaring war against a country and the subsequent destruction and killing of people who are in no possible was responsible for the act in question is immoral and just plain wrong. It's the exact same thing tese terrorists did. Killing innocent people to exact some revenge makes you a terrorist and worse makes the United States into a terrorist nation. All those adjectives used to describe these terrorists like Vile, Cowardly etc will apply to you if you decide to take the same route.

I see no reason to sink to their level and to kill innocents civilians. Unfortunately the aftereffects of this will be severe. The terrorists have already accomplished their goals.

1) The public is now officially scared.
2) Americans will lose many freedoms as a result.
3) Americans will be suspicious of other Americans (it's going to suck to be an Arab or a Muslim in this country, if we can avoid concentration camps it will be good).
4) There will be increased military presense in the streets and increased military input into civillian discourse. In others words America will become a more military controlled nation then it was yesterday.

BTW whoever did this was massively funded and massively organized. They had insiders at every juncture. It would nto surprise me one bit if the responsible people were never found out.

For the paranoid bunch there will be speculation about the involvement of the intelligence community (more funding as a result), Israel (getting europe and US off their backs about the palestenians) and maybe even fringe militia groups. If after months of investigation a finger is not pointed at some convenient, weak, and easy to attack target like Castro, Saddam, or khaddafi I would be shocked.

Re:Plea for peace

[seebs]

When the people who did this admit it, and say "we were totally and absolutely wrong, and we will never do any such thing, to any target, ever again", I might believe you.

When Palestinians are dancing in the streets cheering the death of ten thousand innocent bystanders, retaliation is not merely possible, but *necessary*. These are people who cannot conceive of "right" or "wrong". While they live, no innocent life is safe.

You shoot rabid dogs. You shoot terrorists. It's the same action, for the same reason.

Re:Plea for peace

[rjamestaylor]

Correction: those responsible are dead. They died attacking.

Nope. The ones RESPONSIBLE include the planners, promoters and sympathetic providers of aid to the same. It's not just retaliation (which is justified) but it's also stopping further acts by those responsible.

May your words, however, soon be true: "Those responsible are dead" -- Amen!

Re:Plea for peace

[Lemmy Caution]

America doesn't attack unprovoked. Consider America provoked. Any counter-strike is a logical, if highly unfortunately expected outcome.

America has attacked, essentially, unprovoked before. During the invasion of Panama, just to cite a recent example, more than 400 bombs were dropped on Panama City. Civilian casualties were reported from at least 200-some to as many as 4000. See: this.

The problem is that American deaths are much more well-reported than 3rd-world deaths, not just in America, but anywhere than American media dominates (it can be frustrating, I assure you, for someone in Latin America to get more news about the school shooting in Colorado than about the hurricanes that just hit them. It is hard to communicate the resentment towards American hubris that this sort of situation creates.) We sentimentalize our own casualties and not those of foreigners.

And we aren't the only ones that do this, either - it's a simple product of nationalism and tribalism and groupthink. It's usually only a thoughtful minority in any country that sees past this. The fact is that America has treated civilian deaths elsewhere as "collateral damage," but civilian deaths here as a national tragedy. That double standard is part of the problem.

Re:Plea for peace

[Aerog]

Palestinians can rally in the streets today, and celebrate the mass extermination of human beings.

Not that I'm condoning violence in any ay shape or form, (this act was utter atrocity), but your statement about Palestinians and immediately assuming they're responsible is bare-faced racism just like you accuse them of condoning. we have to remember at this time No group has claimed responsiblity and Arafat and even the Taliban have denounced the act. It is still unknown which group carried out the attack, and (I'm going to get modded down here), but the chance even holds that it could even be an American group (however small). We need to stop pointing fingers until there is sufficient evidence that this was an attack by group X.

We need to focus on the aftermath and helping the survivors, and sadly I'm over half a continent and a closed border away or I'd be out there now. I hope we can put it behind us and work on the task at hand first, before condemning potentially innocent groups.

Re:Plea for peace

[TWR]

Palistinians cheering in the streets should be ashamed of themselves

The Palestinians cheering in the streest should be liquidated.

-jon

Re:Plea for peace

[mpe]

The US Government does not provide funding to terrorists.

They certainly have done in the recent past, notably in Central and South America.
Also remember that the US took the approach of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" with the likes of Iraq and Afganistan.
Indeed the CIA actually coined the term "blowback" where things have rebounded on the US...

Re:Plea for peace

[flatrock]

Have you ever considered that today's attack was a counterstrike - against America?

This isn't a counter attack simply because this act is unjustifiable. An attack on a US militay post would be a counter attack. The only military target in this attack was the Pentagon. There is no justification for hijacking civillian aircraft full of civillians and crashing them into civillian targets.

The people who are responsible for this need to be prevented from ever commiting this kind of act again. Anyone, or any nation, who harbors those individuals must also be brought to justice. Not only the US, but the entire world should not only speak out against such cowardly acts of terror, but act to prevent such acts from occuring in the future. I understand that it isn't fair for a nation to suffer for the actions of a few of it's citizens, but if those nations are harboring those terrorists, then they share the blame for this crime.

Re:Plea for peace

[CleverNickName]

But really, "Go W"? Do you have any idea how rediculous that sounds? We'll be lucky if that bastard doesn't round up any person who is a moslem in the US and put them in camps for orderly disposal.
I think that the US people have learned, and will soon have the lesson reinforced, what happens when you elect a president with WEAK foreign experience.
I'm all for rallying around the flag, but I refuse to support this charlatan of a leader.

I couldn't agree with you more. Here's my greatest fear: Resident Bush will see this as an opportunity to look "Presidential", and bomb "Them" back to the stone age, and figure out who "They" are later.

And all these comparisons to Pearl Harbor are just inflammatory. We have NO IDEA who did this, so we have NO IDEA who we should be retaliating against. Let's not lose our heads, people. We can be sure that the US will not let this go unanswered...but "Go W"?! Please.

Re:Plea for peace

[hrieke]

The Tree of Librety must be watered with the blood of Patriots from time to time.

What exactly do we say?

Re:Plea for peace

[abe ferlman]

the way to defeat terrorism is to eliminate terrorists

I disagree.

1. You can't eliminate terrorism. Anyone willing to die for a cause is going to be VERY hard to stop no matter how hard you try to root them out. And the harder you try to root them out, the more false positives you get, and the more power the authorities who prefer authoritarian rule are given.

2. The best you can do is eliminate the *motives* for terrorism. This involves trying to deal more fairly with people everywhere. People who live comfortable lives generally do not want to die for causes. If everyone were a little more comfortable and a little less fearful, we'd be better off. This means not being greedy with our wealth, and being more compassionate and even-handed in our foreign policy.

3. The American Colonists were "terrorists", often waging a guerilla war against the "organized" and "civilized" army of Britain. Were they wrong? Should we condemn our past? What if the only champions of free speech in the world were terrorists- would it change anything then? This isn't such a simple issue as it seems at first. To those who feel bullied by the US, it's not hard to see why they would interpret this as a military victory instead of an act of "faceless cowardice", to paraphrase our erstwhile president. I'd say flying a plane into a building, however misguided the act may be, is no act of cowardice. It's a sign that someone hates us *very* much, and it behooves us to at least understand *why*.

Re:Plea for peace

[Mike1024]

Hey,

There has to be retaliation for this, without a doubt.

Not retaliation. Justice. "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." - Mahatma Gandhi

We should identify individuals who are guilty of crimes, arrest them, allow them to be tried in accordance with law, and if they are guilty, arrange thier execution.

We can't just say 'Some evidence indicates Palistinian extremists - let's nuke a city in blind rage'. There must be due process. Guilt must be proven, and it must be done visibly and transparently. Killing foreigners in 'retaliation' will only make more people hate the united states. If they can see that only demonstrably guilty people have been killed, further 'revenge' will be far harder to justify.

Killing innocents for no reason other than to show what a big dick the US has is not an acceptable option. Visible accountability and justice is, and that is what is required.

Michael

Re:Plea for peace

[Aerog]

Okay, the first message I posted was written before I happened to see a news broadcast of the reaction by certain factions in Palestine, and in that I admit I acted a little hasty. The reactions are very, very inappropriate. However, the basic premise of the post holds.

We can't interpret the reactions of a group of people as admissions of guilt and if there is a reaction against Palestine for simply reacting in an emotional way (given the situation they've been in), then the world is truly doomed. I agree that some reaction against the forces involved is necessary, but not just against people who did not cause the tragedy. As far as I can see (and I'm no expert in middle-eastern relations) the Palestinian people have been getting the proverbial kick in the balls from the US for quite sime time now (seemingly) and this may just be the reaction that happens when emotionally-charged people are given a situation. It's akin to (but not exactly) the reaction that will occur when the diabolical fiends who coordinated this are brought to justice. People will be so happy that the people who they see as bringing them suffering are punished. And no, I'm not saying that the US is directly causing the Palestinians to suffer, but oftentimes people who are only slightly informed will make such assumptions (the vast majority being common people (of any race or nationality).

So what I'm trying to say is that yes, some of the the Palestinian people's reactions are very inappropriate, but there shouldn't be a reaction against it for the sake of goodwill and not plunging into all-out war. Attacking them would be like a very large child pounding the living crap out of a smaller (yet maybe just as loud) child for laughing when the bigger kid trips and breaks his leg.

Re:Plea for peace

[stripes]

The British are still gone from the United States after the little hullaboo in the 1770's.

Except for that rather irritating war of 1812 where they burned the capital building to the ground.

Not that I disagree with the need to find out who was responsible for the attack and to punish them (and equally importantly not to harm those not responsible)

Re:Plea for peace

[dvdeug]

Did Churchill talking about Checkslovakia stop war? Even short-term (pre-Poland), was the conquest of a soverign country by a racist imperialist dictator a good thing?

Re:Plea for peace

[WNight]

Nope. There's a *whole lot* of "there's a bully who got what he deserved," in how I felt after the school shootings.

My only regret is that they killed somewhat indiscriminately instead of only killing the bullies.

What I really don't understand is your unwillingness to defend yourself... how you think violence is wrong. If a bully uses violence, chances are it's all they'll recognize. I'm not saying you should kill someone for hitting you, but if they hit you to control you, why is it unjust for you to hit them back harder to make them stop?

You don't have to be a slave, but you need to realize that they'll always pick on you unless something makes them stop. That something will NOT be the school, or the police. (One of the jocks killed in the Columbine shooting was accused of raping a fellow student, the school helped keep him out of trouble because he was a star athlete.)

When I was in school I got in two fights. One in grade four, and one in grade eight. Both times I was being picked on by a group, both times I violently dealt with the leader of the group, and both times I was left alone by all trouble makers for the remainder of my time at the school.

In grade eight, I was told that I was going to have the "shit kicked out of me" after school. The bullies had progressed to moderate violence and knew where I lived and the direction I had to walk to get home. They had waited for me to leave school in the past. I told the administration and they did nothing, they didn't even investigate.

When I was threatened the next day, I picked the lead bully up by the neck, slammed his head into a locker, and told him I'd throw him down the stairwell (we had an open stairwell three flights down) if he ever so much as threatened me again. I then wrapped both hands around his throat and began to squeeze while holding him in the air.

When a teacher heard this and investigated I put him down and walked off to the office. They said there that they knew it was justified and I wouldn't be punished. I want to know why, if they knew, they hadn't done something earlier.

But that was the turning point, after that he was always afraid of me, he and his friends never came near me again.

All I had to do was show that I was willing to defend myself, that he couldn't walk all over me, and the harassment and threats ended.

But, I bet you don't think I was justified, do you?

Re:Plea for peace

[mesocyclone]

Sorry, but the Contras were no more terrorists than the Sandanistas and their bloody friends in El Salvador. We did indeed fund Contras, as revolutionaries, and I am glad we did.

Re:Plea for peace

[mesocyclone]

I call Israel a nation under siege by terrorists. And the Palestinian authority, a dictatorship as opposed to the Israeli democracy, does its best to cause Palestinian casualties, to fool people like yourself.

Israel isn't perfect, and in its war for independence some of its people committed unforgivable acts of terrorism - by the Stern gang and Irgun.

Furthermore, I disagree with Israel's settlement policy. But they are a nation that has been attacked by neighboring countries. Remember, they only conquered Palestine after they had been invaded from their in 1967.

However, targeting terrorist leaders is not terrorism. It is self defense. I hope the US starts doing the same thing. People who attack civilians on purpose are murderers and deserve whatever happens to them.

Re:Plea for peace

[mesocyclone]

As one who has studied US 20th century history in depth, and who lived more than half of that century, and a Vietnam Veteran, all I can say is: you are equating apples and oranges.

Differences that should be obvious include: we are a democracy, while our opponents have always been dictatorships; we have indeed supported rebels, and *some* of those rebels indeed performed terrorist acts, but that has certainly been against US policy since at least 1965.
p

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

Once again.

You can not punish a "country". Well you can but then you are absolutely no different then the monsters who blew up those buildings today. They too want to punish a "country" and do it by killing civilians. When (yes when) the US decides to punish whatever country they choose they will do it by killing tens of thousands of civilians just like these terrorists did.
The guilty will walk away untouched. Hussein, Kaddafi, Bin Laden, Arafat, Sharon are all still alive and well despite targeting civilians over and over again.

Like I said Americans are genetically incapable of acting rationally under these circumstances and will indeed kill tens of thousands of civilians and then they will walk around thumping their chests and telling the world what badasses they are. It's in our culture we can't help it. Too bad they can't look in a mirror and realize that they have just committed the exact same "cowardly and evil act" they accused the terrorists of doing.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

"For one thing, Rush never, to my knowledge, advocated any such response to the Waco tragedy."

I was not talking about waco I was talking about OKC. In specific Rush did advocate bombing (actually he used much harsher words like devestating or turning into dust or something like that) whoever was responsible for the OKC bombing. Once he found out that not only was the perpetrator an American but also a Republican he changed his tune. All of a sudden turning Michigan into a parking lot was not an option. Why is that? Well it's because Rush wanted to see arab civillians killed by the hundreds of thousands but did not want to see American civillians die. There can be no other explanation for this abrupt change of heart.

As for the rest of your post..

Whatever.

I have heard enough of all this Reno bashing to last a lifetime. In my mind the proper response to "we have you surrendered, come out with your hands up" is not "Fuck you motherfucker I have guns and I ain't afraid to use them, come and get me if you can".

1) Those people were under arrest.
2) The police gave them plenty of time to surrender.
3) Their fate was in their hands.

All over the world incredibly brave people fight injustice by getting arrested, tortured and killed in jail. They are brave enough to become martyrs for their causes and are brave enough to die for their causes. These people you talk about didn't even have the guts to get arrested for their cause. If you want to talk about injustice talk to me about Stephen Biko or Nelson Mandella not some whiny ass nutcake like Koresh or some racist mutherfucker like Weaver.
Making these people into some sort of Martyrs is beneath your dignity and besmirches the efforts of people all over the world who fight against injustice and are arrested , tortured or killed in Jail. If Weaver saw one hundredth the hardship Nelson Mandella or Ghandi did he would commit suicide. Mandella survived 27 years in a south African prison finally emerging to lead his country. Koresh wouldn't have made it a week in there.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

"But, after seeing them handing out candy and selebrating today I really don't care if we can only punish a country by attacking its citizens."

A few people in the street in no way represents the millions of muslims in the world. After the OKC building there were plenty of high five-ing in texas, arizona, montana and other wester states where anti govt fervor was running high. Of course you choose to ignore that bit of news and of course the media never covered it.

"Sometimes when you fight with monsters you have to become one."

As long as you realize that. You are officially the same as the vile, evil covards that you seek to destroy. They won!. They not only stopped the economy of the united states (for all practical purposes) for a day or two, they not only caused billions in damages and killed tens of thousands but they also succeeded in making america into a savage terrorist state. All of our Ideals of democracy, justice and honor will now be thrown out the window and we will become the monsters they say we are. There can be no greater victory for a terrorist then to have a country undermine it's own value system so thoroughly.

"This would have eventually affected US policy. Now the average US citizen will never feal that way again."

First of the chances of the United States actually doing something Israel does not want is small to null. Israel is truly the tail that wags the dog. Secondly though this points out a very strong motivation for Israel to have actually commited this act. When you think about it they are probably the only people with the organization and the intelligence to carry out such an action and it will indeed give them free reign to complete their genocide of the palestenians undisturbed by the rest of the world.

Re:Plea for peace

[Ian Bicking]

My God, you are a self-admitted racist warmonger, and you would deam to judge me?!?

You talk about killing the children and friends of the terrorists, and you would tell me that I am not willing to stand up and fight against the slaughter of helpless innocents?!? You propose genocide, and yet you bring up Hitler?!?

I am willing to stand up against the slaughter of helpless innocents. And right now it's people like you that are the greatest threat to innocents. Unlike you I am not a racist. Unlike you I value human life equally. Unlike you I do not condemn innocent people based on their associations or geographical location.

I am not preaching peace, but I am preaching justice. There is no time when justice is not called for. There is no exception to its virtue.

I am an American, and the reactionary, violent sentiments I have seen here have only increased my resolve that I must fight to keep people like you from winning. I fear for the nation's soul, for you would surely take us to hell.

Re:Plea for peace

[WolfWithoutAClause]

That's a no op...

Re:Plea for peace

[JabberWokky]

2. The best you can do is eliminate the *motives* for terrorism.

Well now, that would eliminate terrorists, now wouldn't it? At least you're not as bad as the first person who replied who didn't see that I was saying that blind violence is *not* a cure.

As to *how* to eliminate terrorists, you have no idea - I have no idea, and I don't think anybody has any idea. Certainly killing them all will just generate animosity the same way stirring a swirling pot backwards generates eddys.

I think many people have died, and many will die soon. I only hope (as I think all people willing to face war do) that the number of people who will die in battle are lower than the number who would die without battle (i.e., with continued terrorist acts).

That's one of the only reasons to fight[1], and we will always go into that decision blind, not knowing if we are doing the right thing.

[1] I'd accept certain fights for human rights, freedom, etc as something worth war, as those are things that I would personally die for.

--
Evan

Re:Plea for peace

[Rupert]

Huh?

I forget the name of the logical fallacy you just committed, but I asserted:

!J implies W

and you replied:

J does not imply !W

thus refuting my argument. Except your reply is not a logical derivitive of my statement. To explain further:

If you do not talk you will get war. If you do talk you may get war, or you may not. Of course, it's possible that I'm full of shit, and you can not talk, and still not have war, but that wasn't your point. Your point is that:

If you talk, you may get war. Which is true, but does not contradict my statement.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

I am for any means that will actually punish the guilty. Weather that's chemical or not. I am not for torturing people to get answers. I am not for killing people who had nothing to do with this.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

You respond to it with the following manner.

In all of your actions you seek to demonstrate that your core values have not changed. That we are still a country that believes in justice, fairness, morals.

You find out who is guilty and then you punish them. Maybe you can't bring them here and maybe you have to kill them but you have to target only the guilty. This rules out dropping bombs in kabul or lebenon or otherwise indiscriminately destroying women and children whose only crime in life is to be born a muslim in a country you don't like.

"There will always be someone that is unhappy with us."

Yes of course there will be. What you have to make sure is that you are acting in an honorable way. That way when there are disagreements they are handled respecfully. Right now our credibility is shot all over the world. Mostly because of our undying pledge of allegience to israel but also because of our inability to let five years go by without bombing the crap our to some poor defenseless nation. We are a country enamoured of spilling blood whenever and whereever we want. as long as we act in a brutal manner in killing people all over the world then those people will feel justified in acting brutally with us. As long as we are willing to kill civilians (100,000 iraqis were killed and millions still suffer due to embargoes what did they ever do to you?) then they will feel justified in doing this to us. Remember these people are dying anyways. They are being bombed daily by the US in iraq. If they are marked for death by american bombs and planes then why not make your death mean something? Give people a reason to live and maybe they won't commit suicide on your soils.

"BTW I realize that not all Muslims were dancing in the street, but I am not suggesting we target all muslim countries."

Let me tell you something. Sometime in the next few weeks american palnes will drop bombs on innocent civilians. Thousands of people will die in far off cities including women and children. Americans all over the country will dance, whoop, drink beer and celebrate this bloodbath. Don't kid yourself. You are absolutely no better then those animals.

"I also don't equate rednecks in montana with organizations that get state protection and support. "

Those terrorists boarded in the US. They lived in the US and Canada (at least that's what the news is saying). Guess what. The state protection they get is from the US and Canada. Are you advocating bombing canada? Of course not they are white people. You would much rather bomb algeria, iraq, or afganistan where the brown people live.

2) You make an honest effort to determine

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

"So, let me get this straight: you assume that because Rush wanted to see the perpetrators of the OKC bombing punished, he necessarily was calling for killing hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians??
"

I heard him with my own ears. he said he wanted to turn iraq into a parking lot. he wanted to kill everybody in that country!. Yes he really said that. Yes he really wanted kill arabs by the millions. Yes he actually advocated carpet bombing of civillians in retaliation. I heard him with my own ears.

He did not say "whoever did this should be punished" he said "when we find out who did this we should turn that country into a parking lot".

Now it was along ago and I forget the actual words he used but they definately involved killing the entire country. I repeat I heard it with my own ears.

"Koresh and his followers had no choice but to surrender. Reno chose to not ensure that they made that choice by simply waiting them out. As with Elian, there was no pressing need to roll in those tanks."
These people broke laws. They had plenty of opportunity to surrender peacefully to officers of the law. If they wanted to fight instead of going to jail they had plenty of time to get their women and children out of harms way. They chose not to do either. They used their children as shields and they mocked the law and the united states itself. Koresh had more then a month to do something noble he chose not to. People were begging him to come out peacefully and to release his children he did not choose to. He instead chose to endanger the lives of his childred and other children who were under his care. This was a despicable act. Those helpless children should have been let go on day one. Koresh chose to hold them hostage and use them as shields.

Like I said the response to "come with your hand up" is not "come and get me mutherfuckers" especially if you have children in the building. He was a evil, coward, pychopath who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and chose to take his children with him. If you believe in your cause then get arrested. Every single hero in history has done that.

As for the rest of your rant..
Whatever.
I have heard the republican line over and over again (how could I not with the media so thoroughly controlled by the right). Suffice it to say I don't see the world through your black and white prism.

Re:Plea for peace

[sydb]

I was not aware of that, and it makes me worried.

I don't know how you can compare circumstantial evidence with DNA. DNA found on a murder weapon is surely direct evidence, not curcumstantial. The reliability of circumstial evidence is to be found in obtaining a conviction, whether true or false, but not in achieving justice. IANAL, thank god.

Re:Plea for peace

[dvdeug]

[How pathetic do you have to be to have multiple Slashdot accounts for more karma?]

This is not logic class. Your argument was that we should talk, because if we don't, we'll get war. My response was that if we do talk, we'll get war, so there's no reason to talk if that talk is morally wrong. Furthermore, I pointed out that war is not always the wrong solution; we can not talk and sacrifice all, instead of standing up for the right.

Re:Plea for peace

[Rupert]

Not nearly as pathetic as someone who does so, but can't keep track so people find out that they're doing it. Or who loses track of their tags. Anyway, it's not the karma - I run multiple accounts so I can mod myself up. New Slashcode stops you from modding up posts from your IP address, though, so I guess I'll have to stop.

Speaking of karma, can you imagine how much karma you'd lose in a normal /. thread if you claimed that there was such a thing as talk that was morally wrong? Next you'll be claiming free beer is immoral, too.

Your new argument is that arguments don't have to be logical. This is unfortunately true, and the kind of thinking that will get Kabul flattened. You cite a case in which talking did not prevent war, and deduce that talking is of no use. You may be right, but you don't know that for certain, and neither does anyone else.

Personally, I would talk to Satan himself if it would prevent further bloodshed.

Re:Plea for peace

[dvdeug]

> Your new argument is that arguments don't have to be logical.

No, my argument is that simple logic ignores the subtilties of human conversation.

> Personally, I would talk to Satan himself if it would prevent further bloodshed.

And what happens when you realized you've let your family be killed while you were talking to him? That you've sold your soul, your family, your country down the river? If someone isn't interested in working with you, talking often gives them time to take advantage of you; if you put too high an importance on talking, you'll pay too much of a price for peace, often to discover it won't buy peace after all.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

"At no point have you explained why Reno had to do what she did. At no point have you explained why she should have been allowed to hold onto her job afterwards."

Let me try to expalin again. I don't give a flying fuck about koresh and his blind idiot followers, nor do I give a flying fuck about reno. Reno may have killed a few dozen people but that's nothing. First of all Koresh was exactly like the people who slammed that airplane into the WTC. He was a religious zealot who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. Reno waited for over a month while koresh made a mockery of the US justice system. Republicans and democrats were alike wondering just exactly what the fuck was wrong with the police that they could not get this guy to come out. Ordinary citizens were grumbling that if they had committed a crime they would be in jail by now but koresh was getting a free ride.
The fact is that he could have avoided all this by simply raising his hands up and coming out. He chose not to do that. It was his choice and his alone.

I neither cheered clinton nor reno. I simply pointed out that clinton and reno also pariticipated in the much celebrated custom of killing innocent civilians abroad but that they had not done it to the levels that past presidents had done. Clinton killed less then one thousand innocent civilians but Bush sr. killed hundreds of thousands, reagan killed tens of thousands (and was indirectly responsible for ungodly torture and death of people in south america), and nixon of course carpet bombed much of southeast asia. Once again All american presidents (including clinton) enjoy killing innocent people overseas.

As for iraq you are seriously deluded. I suspect this comes from blindly believing everything a republican tells you and wrapping the flag around eyes.
1) The fact that iraq and kuwait have a disagreement has nothing to with protecting america. There was no need to go there in the first place.
2) Saddam was suckered by Bush. Bush had told him that he would look the other way if saddam attacked kuwait but then pounced on him afterwards.
3) All those so called soldiers were nothing but conscripts dragged out of their homes and put into the battlefield. That makes them prisoners not soldiers. Look at how they immediately surrendered. They were not fighting america they were waiting to be rescued by them. Nevertheless the relentless bombing proceeded for a month. Tens of thousands of people were killed bagdad. That bombing was absolutely no different the the NYC terrorism act. Except that you did it for cheap oil and they did it for religion (both of them silly excuse to kill people).

4) United nations may have bowed to american pressure but they did not initiate it. If it wasn't for america none of that would have taken place.
5) The sanctions were opposed by a lot of people and are still opposed by many european countries. Many of them have already broken them. It's at americas insistance that people of iraq are starving to death. In a way it would have been more humane to drop the bomb on them instead of subjecting them to slow and painful death by starvation. The fact is the the US holds the power of life and death over any country which opposes it. We could at a moments notice deploy nuclear weapons and wipe out europe and they know it. That's why when push comes to shove they will do whatever we say.

"Lovely. Hope you're proud of making that claim about the approximately 20,000 innocent men'

Hey sorry if the truth is hard to swallow. First of all the death count will be way less then twenty thousand. Putting that aside for a moment. As evil as that act was it does not compare to what the US has done overseas. We supported pinochet in his murderous regime, we supported Idi Amin, the Shah of Iran, the taliban, israel etc. the list goes on and on. Who do you think armed and trained the taliban? These same people who you are going to carpet bomb pretty soon were funded by your tax dollars to fight the russians remember that? BTW when your bombs are falling on kabul and killing people who had nothing to do with anything (just like the terrorists in NY did) the heads of the taliban will be off in the mountainside and Bin Lauden will be who knows where. You will kill innocents to make yourself feel better but you will not kill the actual guilty people. Just like you did with saddam. Kill the iraqi citizens let the monster live.

There is a reason why people all over the world hate america. have you ever asked yourself why that might be? Have you ever looked at the history of your own country in an objective way? DO you think the people think warmly of your country when one of your mines blows up the legs off their children? When US bombs and US planes are dropping missiles in palestine blowing up homes and businesses do you think those people like you? When the taliban is cutting the heads off of women who dare to walk in the street or go to school do you think those victims are praising the US? When people are being tortured and killed in south america do you think they like the fact that US funds and training made all that possible?

People hate you because you behave in a evil and hateful way. Not only towards all the people in the world but also with your own countrymen. Did you watch the news today? Did you see how your own citizens are treating your arab citizens?

America is a racist country. For hundreds of years they treated blacks as pets, draft animals, hunting game, and sex slaves. When that ended they turned on everybody else. If you want proof just wait and see.
I heard on the news that a few people were arrested in Germany in connection with this act. Do you think Germany will get bombed by the US for harboring terrorists? of course not they are white people. I also heard that some of these guys lived in canada. Will you bomb canada? of course not they are white people. You WILL bomb iraq, iran, afghanistan, libya, and any other nation where brown people live whether they had any connection to this or not. Iran is a shiite country and bin lauden is a sunni. They probably hate each other but it won't stop you from killing iranians by the ton will it? To you one brown man is just like another, kill them all they just muslims anyway right?

Live Streams of DC Police

[PenguinRadio]

http://www.penguinradio.com/ has live streams of the DC Police Special Operations channel. This is a shoutcast MP3 feed.

Re:Live Streams of DC Police

[Lumpy]

Penguin radio is so slashdotted it aint funny.
www.shoutcast.com
search for scanner

There are currently 4 shoutcast streams that are not dead yet for DC and NYC. 2 NYC servers went down, but the server loads are getting insane..

If you are a linux person, download shoutcast or icecast, hook up your 2meter ham radio tuned to police or fire and get it on the net if you are in the NYC or DC area.

Re:Nostradamus

[Diomedes01]

I'm sorry, but that's way too vague to make any sense at all. How could anyone call DC or New York "the City of God" - I'm sick of all these new-age hippie bastards who wet their pants every time something happens that can be contorted to almost fit one of Nostradamus' ridiculous "prophecies". There are serious events in motion without letting stupid superstitions get in the way.

Just Give Blood!!!

[TopShelf]

Even if you're not in NYC, blood supplies can be moved around, and are desperately needed in a situation like this. Given the situation, does anybody know if they'll accept donations from folks who gave less than 8 weeks ago?

Re:Just Give Blood!!!

[geekoid]

56 days is ther SOP. They might make an acception if its close.
I just gave 2 weeks ago. On one hand I'm glad my blood is ready to be used, OTOH I need to do something and I'd love to give more.

Re:Just Give Blood!!!

[remande]

I just called the Manchester, NH office (5 hr drive to NYC). They didn't make an exception in my case, but I am only 1 day underdue, and am eligible tomorrow.

Geekoid, please note that you have done your part, two weeks ago. If that pint isn't used in the rescue effort, it may have stood in place of a pint that will be.

Anyone who has not given blood since 7/17/01 is eligible to give blood today (9/11/01). The Red Cross says that they will need donations all through the week. I expect that NYC will go into "Spaghetti surgery" mode and stabilize everybody they can today, then spend the next few days performing more permanent medicine as supplies arrive. Thus, people eligible to donate within the next week are encouraged to do so.

Red Cross Internet: redcross.org (leads you to your local office, has news briefs, and is nearly slashdotted).

Red Cross Bellnet: 800-462-9400

Will someone post NYC donation data here, and someone else mod it up? That should save valuable phone lineage in NYC. I will post donation data if I can find it.

Re:Just Give Blood!!!

[fishbonez]

Here is the list of places you can donate blood in New York and New Jersey. Given the current situation many Blood Donation Centers are holding special drives outside of normally scheduled hours. Please call the Blood Donation Center nearest you for information.

In Rockland County, Good Samaritan Hospital in Suffern, NY is accepting blood donations today.

Re:Just Give Blood!!!

[Ted V]

I haven't been able to access the http://www.redcross.com [redcross.com] website.
However, the Ammerican Association of Blood Banks, http://www.aabb.org is up, though slow. It has some listings of blood donations sites. You can also call 1-866-FROMYOU (1-800-376-6968)

Incorrect Details?

[crashnbur]

I've written too much on this already this morning, but a lot of the details in this post do not match with the several reports I've read, and I've posted the facts from those results to my web site, crash.neotope.com, along with several links to news sites that are actually letting me in...

Giving Blood Wherever you live!

[Hollinger]

People, give blood wherever you live, regardless of whether it's in California or in Rhode Island!

More info

[rw2]

Continual updates on poliglut. And we're still operating without lag.

Re:More info

[jbrw]

We're running a similar thing at newsfilter, although from a slightly more UK perspective.

Worldwide effects

[xXunderdogXx]

I am from Newfoundland Canada, and our airports are the destination for many re-routed flights.
Goose-Bay Labrador is expected to DOUBLE its population because it is a small city with a very large airport.

As for St. John's (where I am) we have gotten at least a dozen planes and we are expecting more. I'm considering going to the airport to volunteer for any help I can.

-underdog

1-800-Give-Life

[djrogers]

Please, no matter where in the country you are - GIVE BLOOD! Blood banks all across the nation will be getting blood and plasma to NY and DC at this time, and we already have a serious shortage nationwide. If you're over 17 years old, 110 lbs, and have no STDs, call 1-800-give-life and find out where you can donate.

Re:1-800-Give-Life

[gorgon]

The Red Cross site seems to be bogged-down, but many of the state chapters of the Red Cross have sites that seem to be working. For Minnesota and parts of surrounding areas the site is yourbloodcenter.org. Also, try the American Association of Blood Banks site.

Re:1-800-Give-Life

[dachshund]

Most hospitals in NYC are taking blood, but there may be a huge wait time (5 hours in some midtown hospitals.) You may be best served by waiting a little while before you join the line. Also make sure you've eaten something today-- bring something, just in case you have a long wait.

God Bless Google

[Bonker]

If you are looking for news, you will find the most current information on TV or radio.
Many online news services are not available, because of extremely high demand.
Below are links to cached copies of news sites as they appeared earlier today.
Breaking news: Attacks hit US [Washington Post - CNN.com (cached)]

Continuous Video Feed

[marcop]

I have been watching a continuous video feed for the past hour from http://www.sky.com/skynews/home/

BTW, they www.sky.com runs Solaris. So does washingtonpost.com - which was one of the few sites that was up. I don't promote Solaris - but it is interesting.

Donate Blood

[MousePotato]

As I write this preparations or underway to turn our studio into an emergency blood donation center for the American Red Cross. They need help. Business want to help but most do not have the advantage we (martial art schools across the US) do; lots of floor space for them to setup.

If you can't help this way please just go and donate blood today.

My prayers go out to the hundreds, if not thousands of families who lost a loved one today. NYC is my home town. All I can do from 1375 miles away I will.

Peace,

Sandor Urban

Re:Peace ?

[m2]

We can't just sit here and continue to get attacked and terrorized for no apperent reason.

So, your answer is for both sides to bulldoze each other and call the last man standing the winner to enjoy whatever is left afterwards?

Re:Nostradamus

[Smid]

Nostradamus's predictions have been constantly discredited, being not only applicable to all sorts of events in past 500 years, but also originally written in an obscure version of french that was regularly mistranslated.

Please, put your doomsayer sandwichboards down and stop ringing the bells.

(Not you Diomedes, you talk sense)

Smid

There is no precedent for an attack this large

[purduephotog]

Terrorists hit airlines.... this is the first time that an airline has been used to destroy a target- it literally is out of the Clancy Novel in which an airliner crashed into a joint seat of congress (THIS IS A BOOK!).

As for everyone screaming for peace- shut up. The US has had a pathetic lax policy on terrorism. I feel we should move to a new "If you claim responsibility, you are dead. If you are planning it, you are dead. If you mastermind or participate, you are dead." policy- Eventually they'll run out of terrorists.

picture links
http://johnhaller.com/jh/terrorist/

Thank god for /. - it was the only news source we had at work until the CNN and ABC servers got back up.

Re:There is no precedent for an attack this large

[Hilary Rosen]

And how many civilians are you prepared to murder to carry out this policy?

You are no better than bin Laden

Re:There is no precedent for an attack this large

[uradu]

> I feel we should move to a new "If you claim responsibility, you are dead.

Hmm, that's pretty much been Israel's policy for a long time, look how well it served them. The fact is that while anger and the desire for revenge are natural human responses to violence, they only beget more violence. People who feel slightet, commit violence, and are punished, never pause to consider that they deserved the punishment. Look at the Middle East, look at Ireland, etc.

Unless you're prepared for real, no-holds-barred genocide to completely remove the source of new terrorist recruits, that approach will fail. And even then, chances are some outsiders will symathise with the genocide and pick up their cause.

If ever there was any serious consideration of your approach, it was after WWII when some proposed razing Germany to the ground and dispersing its population. It didn't find much favor then, and it won't now.

Re:There is no precedent for an attack this large

[Hilary Rosen]

No, I mean their next-door neighbours, who aren't out in the streets, but who will die just the same when a made-in-the-good-ole-USA cruise missile comes through their window.

Re:There is no precedent for an attack this large

[susano_otter]

No, I mean their next-door neighbours, who aren't out in the streets, but who will die just the same when a made-in-the-good-ole-USA cruise missile comes through their window.

Ass. I doubt we'll see much, if any, "conventional" military attacks. Look for small units carrying out assassinations of known terrorist affiliates, with little or no collateral damage.

What kind of an idiot assumes that cruise missiles are the only solution for any problem?

Re:There is no precedent for an attack this large

[NecroPuppy]

It was a Democrat (remember Mr. Bill?) who authorized the last firing of cruise missiles at a target. FYI.

Maryland State Security being tightened

[strredwolf]

Baltimore's security is being tightened. All schools are authroized to closed by Gov. Glendening. BWI is closed, folks, call ahead if you have a flight there. Local news is showing school closings now.

Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour

[Paul Crowley]

About 3,000 have been killed since the sixties in Northern Ireland related violence. I suspect that today's deaths dwarf that figure.

GIVE BLOOD

[geekoid]

I don't care where you are, give blood now. All reserves will be pulled from round the nation. if needed. New york hospitals are over flowing with injured.

Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour

[syates21]

Uh, *50,000* people work in the WTC.

It's definitely not Pearl Harbor. It's worse. This is not a military installation they attacked

except...

[kirby697]

if we DON'T get rid of them, I guarantee they will strike again. we need to strike back, fast and harshly and show that the US is not going to tolerate this any longer.

Better...

[imipak]

Hemos: THANK YOU for your words urging restraint. There'll be plenty of time to work out who did it and bring them to justice in the following months.

major parts of European cities, Britain in particular are being shutdown,

I'm two miles from the House of Commons (central London) and, as far as I'm aware, Hemos is mistaken. (Source?) Specific buioldings such as Lloyds, the Nat West tower, Canary Wharf and so on are evacuated, but Londoners are used to that sort of thing: we had an IRA bombing campaign (and still do, of a sort) and there are plenty of false alarms and practice drills.

September 11th

[aoihai]

I've already posted this in the earlier topic, but it's a bit buried.

The date itself indicated that this is probably a Palestinian action. September 11th is the mean date of the Camp David Accords, which essentially ended the conflict between Egypt and Israel and indirectly lead to the current conflict there.

Pictures of WTC burning

[louissypher]

Here are some pictures taken by a co-worker. I could see the WTC burning this morning on my way to work. http://www.netbsd.org/~groo/

Re:Pictures of WTC burning

[Rackemup]

Nice photos ... much cleaner than some of the news sites (canoe.ca had digi-photos of their TV tuned to CNN).

September 11 =

[LordKariya]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Today is September 11th...

September 11th was also the date that certain conditions were reached under the Camp David accord, a treaty which terrorist groups have regularly rallied against.

More Maryland news: MD STATE OF EMERGENCY

[strredwolf]

States offices and courts are closing down. All off-duty police are being called in.

Governeor Glendening is declaring a state of emergency in MD. Text from WBAL TV's coverage says that the declaration will allow schools to close early.

Webcams

[Jordy]

There were several webcams in the WTC on the top floors which are obviously now no longer working.

The washington post has a webcam pointed at the pentagon which updates every 30 seconds showing the fire which is bellowing smoke into the air.

I have a feeling that this disaster will be the most highly covered one in history simply because of the number of webcams scattered around both DC and NYC.

Re:Webcams

[Pope]

Does anyone have images from the webcams before the planes hit? Those would be some Pullitzer-calibre photos if they showed anything.

That footage of the South Tower getting hit by the 757(?) is just chilling.

Re:I hope...

[Pope]

Take a look at what's been going on in Britain and Northern Ireland, especially recently, and see if retaliation has ever solved anything.

This is certainly one of the worst things I have ever witnessed, and that includes being in London during IRA bombings.

I just have been thinking: who on Earth is going to take responsibility for this?? As soon as one has spoken up, yes, he will be a flat spot on the wall.

Smoke seen from ISS

[yzquxnet]

Fox News just reported that smoke from New York City is visible from the ISS (or Alpha, whatever you call it).

Re:Smoke seen from ISS

[Pig Hogger]

Here is the NOAA radar image of the dust cloud.

You're right, it is MUCH WORSE

[Carnage4Life]

BBC reported that a US statesman as saying this is the second pearl harbour

It is not

Pearl Harbor was an attack during a time of global war on a military installation that cost a total of 2,403 lives.

This attack occured during a time of peace on civilain installations and the death toll is being estimated at over ten times that of Pearl Harbor (at least).

North of the border...

[sundae]

Toronto has shut down CN Tower. Words of highrises in Toronto denying entry and exit circulating. Flights have been landing in Canada, Toronto and Vancouver particularly busy.

Phone Center number 1-800-387-3624. Not sure if that's just for Canadian or for generally anyone in NYC.

Re:North of the border...

[Malc]

"Flights have been landing in Canada, Toronto and Vancouver particularly busy. "

Toronto isn't that busy. I've just seen an interview with the GTAA on CBC Newsworld. Pearson airport can handle 84 flights an hour, they've only had 25 of the outstanding 100 flights re-routed there.

I can imagine Vancouver will be worse hit, and I think I heard of sever 747's on approach. With the RCMP searches, those people are going be on those planes for a long, only to get off in a place they don't want to be. Really though, the place that will be worse hit is out east. Many planes have been re-routed to Nova Scotia, and they're not equipped to deal with that kind of capacity.

Re:thanks to religion

[sandidge]

Um, today is not the day for Trolling such as this. Please crawl back into your hole. It's sad that the only way for you to understand a tragedy such as this would be for one of your family members to have been involved. Such a shame.

Re:Eye opener

[Zachary Kessin]

They probably won't treat this as a criminal act. It will be treated as an act of war. Which it is. You can bet that the US and Nato millitary assets will deal with this. As soon as they figure out which bunch of cowards did this.

PENTAGON != COLLAPSED INTO A HOLE! Stay off phone!

[GMontag]

There is a big hole IN the Pentagon where an airplane crashed into it. It is ONLY 5 stories tall (well, there is that *alleged* basement), 5 sides, 5 rings. A 300 foot hole can not swollow the worlds most massive office building.

Plane crashed by the helliport, on the Southwest side. Most reports are that it hit between the E and D rings (outermost ring is E).

Not sure if this was the wedge that is currently under renovation or not.

There are confirmed dead adults in the building. None of the children in the daycare center were harmed. All of the children are accounted for and safe.

Verizon is asking everybody in the DC area to stay off of ANY phone line unless it is an emergency.

But it *does* solve things

[hawk]

OUr entry into WWII was one of those responses. That solved a lot.

Bombing Tripoli in the 80's caused an overnight drop in world Terrorism.

At least at times, violent reponses *are* effective. You can still make a moral case against them, but the dotion that they are ineffective is demonstrably false.

I'm a belligerent evangelical pacifist. I am opposed to violence (pacifist), and want to spread this attitude to everyone else (evangelical). But I'm also willing to use massive military force to bring them to this enlightenment.

hawk

Re:But it *does* solve things

[hearingaid]

Bombing Tripoli in the 80's caused an overnight drop in world Terrorism.

That's arguable. Some would say that the Tripoli bombing shifted world terrorist activity from the left to the right: instead of communists doing relatively minor things, instead we had contras bombing civilian targets in Nicaragua and things like that.

However, '80s terrorism aside. Look at the historical example of the Germans in World War II. They bombed the living daylights out of England. The result?

Dresden.

If it does turn out that this was the work of bin Laden, then it's hard to avoid the observation that the U.S. bombed Afghanistan in an attempt to get bin Laden (much like the Nazis bombed England in an attempt to get Churchill), and in response terrorists bombed the biggest civilian target they could find (compare: Bomber Harris vs. modern terrorist).

The only difference was that Bomber Harris had access to a much greater array of weaponry than the terrorists who attacked today. Certainly, the reaction of New Yorkers that I'm hearing on my TV today is similar to the reaction of the Germans when Dresden was bombed.

Re:But it *does* solve things

[fireant]

At least at times, violent reponses *are* effective. You can still make a moral case against them, but the dotion that they are ineffective is demonstrably false.

Okay, they are effective. In the short term. The fact that this hapenned, shows that retaliations are not effective in the long term.

Say you have a garden. Rabbits are always trying to get in. You have a couple of options. One option is to post a guard day and night with a rifle and pick them off. You'll probably get a lot of them, but occasionally, one will probably get by while you're busy aiming for others. This seems to be the current situation as far as the US and international terrorists.

Another option is to track one of the rabbits to the hole, and get rid of the source. Are you done with the rabbits? Yes. Until the next group of rabbits comes around.

Yet another option is to put up an electric fence, which is what some farmers generally do, but only if it's a small garden. It's not very practical for a large field, or a whole country.

What's the solution? Hell if I know.

I'm a belligerent evangelical pacifist. I am opposed to violence (pacifist), and want to spread this attitude to everyone else (evangelical). But I'm also willing to use massive military force to bring them to this enlightenment.

I think this statement is the very definition of the word paradox.

Re:But it *does* solve things

[Jason Earl]

Yes, and Great Britain and its citizens are free to walk around today only because they opposed the Hitler and his allies. If they had simply capitulated then things would have been very different. The Germans can tell you what it was like to belong to a nation run by a madman. Millions people from the German occupied territories were slaughtered out of hand. Including hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of German citizens. However, once the Nazis were destroyed the danger vanished. Today Germany and Great Britain are even allies. The damage done to German cities was regrettable, but they were the price that had to be paid for peace.

Madmen must be opposed, at whatever cost. The Germans caused Dresden themselves, and not by bombing London. They caused Dresden when they failed to oppose Hitler, and when they followed his lead in his attempt to "take over the world."

Re:But it *does* solve things

[coolgeek]

And what has caused the increase since then?

A lack of bombing terrorist bases?

Re:But it *does* solve things

[hearingaid]

What evidence do you have that Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki, was necessary for peace?

Besides, it sounds to me like you're arguing on the side of the terrorists. Assume that bin Laden is responsible for today's attack, and look at it this way:

• Great Britain launches an attack against military targets controlled by Germany in World War II; similarly, bin Laden launches attacks against military targets controlled by the United States in the '90s;
• Germany responds by bombing civilian targets in Britain; similarly, the United States responds by bombing civilian targets in Afghanistan;
• Britain responds by carpet-bombing Dresden; and today, we have... well.

See my point yet?

Note: I loathe Bomber Harris, and think what he did was both unnecessary and wrong. Still, I can't see how what he did is really any different from the terrorist attack today, except that he had a lot more bombs at his disposal and so caused more damage.

Re:But it *does* solve things

[IronChef]

Okay, they are effective. In the short term.

When was the last time we were attacked by Nazis or imperialist Japanese forces?

Sure looks like violence can be a long-term solution to me.

Re:But it *does* solve things

[fireant]

When was the last time we were attacked by Nazis or imperialist Japanese forces?

Yes. You are right. Violence is a long term solution when you're dealing with a specific threat that is highly visible and easy to pinpoint. It's easy to say that we got rid of the Nazis. What about the neo-Nazis? They certainly aren't as highly visible as the "real" Nazis, but they're still out there, breeding hate and violence.

What about Tim McVeigh? We sure got him didn't we! Is that the end of crazy bombers who target US government buildings?

By destroying the Nazis, did we end antisemitism (or racism)? By defeating the "imperialist Japanese" did we defeat imperialism? I think you need to look at a bigger picture. The people that orchestrate these kinds of things are smarter now. They know that taking over a country and making a direct assault doesn't work. It gives us a target.

If someone does a drive-by on my house, and I find out who it is, and I kill them, is that a long-term solution to drive-by's on my house? Well, that person certainly won't do a drive-by again, but what about the rest of his gang? If they are all captured by the cops, what about fifteen years from now, is there going to be another gang?

Re:But it *does* solve things

[Jason Earl]

The only rational way to wage war is to play to win, and to win quickly. Prolonging the engagement only guarantees that there will be more casualties. That is why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary for peace. It would have cost hundreds of thousands of U.S. lives and would have cost millions of Japanese lives to take Japan, and the U.S. could not afford to leave a hostile nation with the ability to wage war on us in the future to rebuild their nation. It is certainly a tragedy that so many died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but many more would have died had those bombs not been dropped.

War is hell, but once you are engaged the only sane thing to do is to beat your opponent so badly that they surrender quickly and never dream of attacking you again. The leaders of the Axis powers were destroyed, and then America went to war with the destruction that we had caused. We realized that the citizens of these countries were not really to blame, and we helped get these countries back on their feet.

Because of this both Japan and Germany (and Italy as well) are now all U.S. allies, and we wage war the civilized way, economically. And no matter who wins or loses the economic war both of our nations citizens are given better standards of living. Anyone who thinks that the future we have today because of the actions of the Allied forces is worse than the future that Hitler offered is clearly insane.

If Bin Laden feels that he is at war with the U.S. then the attack today was almost certainly an effective one. However, as the Germans learned in World War II it doesn't matter who starts the war, it only matters who finishes it. The world no longer has to worry about the Nazis as a threat because they were utterly destroyed in World War II. Now today a new threat to the United States has arisen, and it will continue to plague us until it is eradicated in the same vicious bloodthirsty manner. The madmen responsible, and all who would support and ally themselves with these terrorists must die. They have declared war on us, and we will give them war until they are dead.

Yes, a new set of madmen will pop up in the future, and they will almost certainly drag the U.S. into yet another conflict. Such conflicts have occurred since the dawn of time, and anyone that thinks that we can wish them away is sadly mistaken. The best that we can do is to try and guarantee that this particular madman isn't able to threaten us in the future.

Also remember that Great Britain did not start the aggression in World War II. Hitler would have attacked Great Britain eventually one way or another. Allowing your enemy to choose the time and place for your battles is a sure fire way to guarantee that you lose. Blaming the Blitz on the British is like blaming a rape victim for her the actions of her assailant.

The real cause of World War II was not the British aggression, but instead it was the failure of the German people to remove Hitler from power. Giving in to madmen, even if they are your leaders, only leads to destruction. Madmen must be opposed at all costs. Any other road leads to destruction.

Re:But it *does* solve things

[hearingaid]

That is why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary for peace. It would have cost hundreds of thousands of U.S. lives and would have cost millions of Japanese lives to take Japan, and the U.S. could not afford to leave a hostile nation with the ability to wage war on us in the future to rebuild their nation.

The U.S. could have easily blockaded Japan. The Japanese had no remaining navy. Given a blockade of a month or two, they would have surrendered.

No: Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened because the U.S. was irritated. The Japanese had lost: how dare they show any pride whatsoever in their country. Also, they wanted to play with their New Toy. (Remember Bikini Atoll? Same thing.)

Also remember that Great Britain did not start the aggression in World War II. Hitler would have attacked Great Britain eventually one way or another. Allowing your enemy to choose the time and place for your battles is a sure fire way to guarantee that you lose. Blaming the Blitz on the British is like blaming a rape victim for her the actions of her assailant.

It's true that Britain didn't start the aggression. That was actually my point too.

I'm equating bin Laden with the Brits, and the Americans with the Germans. Please read my posts more carefully in the future.

(Also note that I'm only discussing German military strategy. I don't mean to suggest that the current American regime suffers from the racism that infected the Hitler government.)

Johnson and Toronto

[Pope]

Johnson Space Center in Florida has been shut down, about the same time they started closing the borders (Mexico and Canada)

Where down the street from NASA? It must be pretty nuts anywhere near the government buildings.

I mean, shit, a friend just called me: he works 3 blocks from the US consulate here in Toronto and they all got sent home because everyone was watching the news, and because of proximity to the consulate!

To Give Blood

[aozilla]

Call 1-800-GIVE-LIFE. There is no need to rush things. Any time in the next week or so is fine. The current blood supply is being sent to the needed areas, and the new donations will be used to replenish things.

Happened on this date

[blamario]

Why the September 11? Well, here's a list of possible causes. I've picked this from scopesys and filtered to leave everyting that might have pissed off somebody. Pick your choice! 1919 US marines invade Honduras 1922 British mandate of Palestine begins 1926 Aloha Tower dedicated in Honolulu 1926 US defeats France for their 7th straight Davis Cup championship 1935 US captures Davis Cup for 7th straight year 1941 FDR orders any Axis ship found in American waters be shot on sight 1954 1st Miss America TV broadcast 1961 Bob Dylan's 1st NY performance mont 1973 Chile's President, Salvador Allende, deposed by Pinoche in a military coup

Bases are in lockdown

[hawk]

This is the last state below wartime. Given the attackes, they'd be damned fools not to.

But this points to another strategic error by these chuckleheads--attacking the Pentagon is going to make this *personal* for the U.S. military.

Think of *all* the stupid things you've done in your lifetime. Add them all up. Now compare this to the United States Marine Corp being your personal enemy . . .

hawk

Re:Bases are in lockdown

[coolgeek]

I don't think the Pentagon was the target...One of the news sites said that plane was being "tracked" by a pair of F-16s at the time of the crash. My money is on the target being the White House, and the Air Force shooting down a civilian aircraft. Not that we like to do that sort of thing, or talk about it once it happens, it is necessary to defend the White House at almost any expense. Imagine the crush to the psyche of Americans if this icon of our freedom were destroyed. I'll bet the Air Force has standing orders/protocols to shoot any planes that get too close. If not them, then the AAA installed at the White House must.

Anyway, I am going to move away from the keyboard and attempt to go about my business today. I do not mean disrespect to the victims and their families; indeed I fear a friend of mine was working at his office in Tower 2 when the attack started. I know that the ultimate weapons of the terrorist are disruption and confusion. My personal counter attack comes in the form of getting back to business.

I hope we rebuild bigger and better WTC Towers. Adding panic buttons as standard cockpit equipment may be a good idea too.

Statement from Prime Minister of Canada

[Nos.]

September 11, 2001

Immediate

STATEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER

Prime Minister Jean Chrétien expressed his horror at the news that the United States has been the victim of multiple terrorist attacks :

"I was stricken by news and television pictures coming from the United States this morning. It is impossible to fully comprehend the evil that would have conjured up such a cowardly and depraved assault upon thousands of innocent people. There can be no cause or grievance that could ever justify such unspeakable violence. Indeed, such an attack is an assault not only on the targets but an offense against the freedom and rights of all civilized nations.

All Canadians are praying that the brave firefighters and rescue crews who currently on the scene will be successful in limiting the casualties. We stand ready to provide any assistance that our American friends may need at this very, very difficult hour and in the subsequent investigation.

Aline joins me in offering, on behalf of all Canadians, our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims and to the American people.

- 30 -

PMO Press Office: (613) 957-5555
This document is also available on the following Web site:
http://pm.gc.ca

Re:Car bomb

[Viking Coder]

There was no car bomb explosion outside the State Department - that is being denied.

Re:Even in South Florida

[JabberWokky]

All local airports have been evacuated.

I have a good friend who works at Palm Beach International Airport... the employees are sitting around, unable to leave. I have no idea why.

You can smell the jet fuel for miles around the airport. The chemical stench is incredible around my house. All the planes that were forced to turn back with full tanks had to dump fuel to land. Amazing.

--
Evan (off of Military Trail, between Okeechobee and Belvedere).

AIRLINE INFORMATION

[FFFish]

First plane: American Airlines, Flight 11, Boston=>LA, 92 on board.
Second: UA, 175, Boston=>LA, ?.
Third (Pentagon): AA, 77, Dulles=>LA, 64.
Four: UA, 93, Newark=>SF, ?.
Five: UA, Camp David.
Six: (PA crash),
Seven: (CO crash?), UA?, 175, =>LA?

Many planes still in the air, none currently threatened.

Crash Five may be a rumour. I keep seeing it scroll by on the TV, but I've read that it's been denied.

Re:AIRLINE INFORMATION

[FFFish]

CORRECTION:

There are five confirmed crashes. The "Camp David" one is actually the PA crash; it crashed relatively close to Camp David. The flight number is still unknown.

I've got flight 175 listed twice. I haven't heard confirmation of the rumoured CO crash, so presumably it didn't happen.

All the flights were East Coast take-offs heading for the West Coast. This is not because LA or SF were under threat of attack, as some stations are stupidly reporting, but because these are the flights with the most fuel onboard.

Transalantic flights would have provided even bigger planes and more fuel, but security on them is more stringent than those for domestic flights.

For perspective

[peterdaly]

The world trade center has its own zipcode. It also has more telephone exhanges than the city of Detroit, MI.

As per the 50,000 people rumor. That is how many people work in the building. Since the attack happened just before 9am, we can hope not everyone was there. 50,000 people is the size of many medium size counties in the US.

The 4 jetliners along have the capicity to carry almost 1000 passengers.

Many of the NYC financial companies are based in the towers. The world economy is not at the best state for this to happen right now.

Where to donate blood in Mass.?

[ljnelson]

Hi; I've never posted here and I've never given blood either, but I need to do both. Can someone please post where in the Worcester-Acton-Littleton-Marlborough, MA (USA) area I can donate blood? http://www.newenglandblood.org is down.

Re:Where to donate blood in Mass.?

[JCMay]

Look inside the front of your phone book; there's normally emergency services contact information in there.

Re:Peace at the cost of liberty?

[m2]

Not responding to this attack will not lead to peace.

But a military attack on the suspects won't either. Just look at this forum which is supposed to have lots of highly educated people that can really assess the benefits derived from U.S.A.'s previous military responses. They are roaring for blood.

I never said this has to go unanswered. But wiping some country out of the map isn't the correct answer. Today fifty thousand died. How many does it take to get even? Fifty thousand, too? Five hundred thousand? Five million? All of them?

Please Give Blood

[cetan]

I know this is redundant. But please, if you can, give blood. Even if you're not in the NY area, give blood because it's the gift of life.

Facial recognition software, anyone?

[osgeek]

It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this.

Abuses of those tools should be another discussion entirely -- an important discussion, but not a paranoid paralyzing one.

I'm usually fairly detached during times like this, but by myself, watching the coverage, and imagining the enormity of the loss of life, mental health, peace, property, and productivity -- I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything.

I'm sure I wasn't the only one. To those of you who felt likewise, don't forget that feeling. When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[geekoid]

I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything

go give blood if you havent in the last 56 days.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[bnenning]

Neither you nor I have any idea if increased ssecurity measures would have made any difference. What happened today was a tragedy and an assault on American freedom. If as a result we sacrifice our liberty in what is likely to be a futile attempt to future occurrences, then the terrorists have truly won.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[jafac]

You have to wonder at HOW these terrorists got ahold of these planes.

Hijacking. How? How were they able to smuggle bombs or guns (most likely guns) aboard these planes? When every time I fly somewhere, I am photographed, poked, prodded, xrayed, and scanned?

Somebody was not doing their job.

We don't need MORE invasion of privacy and abridgement of civil liberties. We need to plug the gaps in the system that allowed this to happen. Our system SHOULD already have been good enough to prevent something like this. It was not. Apparently.

If you're talking about how they coordinated this attack? Well, isn't it obvious? Email? Computers? usenet? Encryption?
We've discussed this issue to death here on slashdot - and it always comes down to more control=less security.

I fear that those arguments will be lost in the near future as tempers flare. Say goodbye to your freedoms. It was nice while it lasted, wasn't it?

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[dachshund]

First of all, we learned today (several times), that any security measure can be overcome by somebody with enough motivation. Since these people are the ones we're trying to combat, it's doubtful that increased civilian monitoring is going to prevent this sort of tragedy in the future. The people who will pay the price, in lost freedom, will be regular American citizens.

What your plan will do is convince a lot of Americans that the American gov't can't be trusted. That's certainly going to make us stronger... And don't forget that these restrictions on our freedom will be around long after the immediate danger is gone. Take the first step and we'll always have to live with it.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[mrdisco99]

And so it begins...

Something like this happens, and suddenly we're more willing to be lax on our liberties.

We can't let events like this damage the values and ideals that we live by. If we do, then they win.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[remande]

Hijacking. How? How were they able to smuggle bombs or guns (most likely guns) aboard these planes? When every time I fly somewhere, I am photographed, poked, prodded, xrayed, and scanned?

Somebody was not doing their job.

I think that we had extremely competent terrorists, not incompetent security. Remember that they made four attempts, on the same day, and they succeeded every time. If it was incompetence, you wouldn't expect it across the board--we would have reports of unsuccessful attempts to smuggle weapons onto an airplane this morning.

I can think of three ways to get through this sort of security.

1. Compromise the security people themselves, by having your own people as security moles. They see their friends coming through, they don't mention what they see on the X-ray. I don't know enough about airport security to guess the difficulties involved.
   
2. A non-metal replica handgun, packed in the carry-on. If you aim something that looks like a Glock at me, I'll believe that it is a Glock and act accordingly. For best results, core out an actual Glock, since the exterior is plastic anyhow. Without the metal working parts, it should make it through carry-on.
   
3. 
   A ceramic knife. Again, deadly and undetected. I can go to the mall and pick up one for slicing lettuce with. It's not that hard.
   

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[Safety Cap]

When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.

Don't you dare!

If we give up our freedom for security, then we'll just end up as a police state with NO increased safety.

Anyone who can hijack (at least) three planes simultaneously is a PROFESSIONAL, and--just as no car alarm will prevent a pro from taking your vehicle--no amount of jack-booted, machinegun-toting "peace police" stationed on every corner along with cameras and sniffers will protect your butt from terrorists.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[osgeek]

We sacrifice our liberty by subjecting ourselves to metal detectors at airports now. We sacrifice our liberty by giving our policemen the power to stop us in our vehicles for various probable infractions. The question isn't whether or not we sacrifice some liberty for some freedom, because we do. Ben Franklin was engaging in a bit of hyperbolic rhetoric in his oft-quoted line about "he who sacrifices liberty for security deserves neither."

The question we have to ask is "how much?" liberty should we sacrifice, and "in what ways?"

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[osgeek]

Something like this happens, and suddenly we're more willing to be lax on our liberties.

I think of it more as examining the total cost of ownership of liberties. Ironically, liberty isn't free, it must be paid for in a myriad of ways. And which liberty we're paying for, when we make choices, isn't even clear. One person's liberty to not be filmed in a public place sacrifices another person's liberty to be free from a violent terrorist attack. This isn't a black and white issue.

We can't let events like this damage the values and ideals that we live by.

If we do, then they win.


Damage of these things is inevitable. Every day when you manage keys to lock your doors or passwords to access your servers, you're dealing with the damage that is done to us by the unscrupulous. This is no different.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[pischke]

It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this...When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.

I've quoted this before, and I'll quote it again.

"Those who would trade their essential Liberty for a perceived temporary Security deserve neither Liberty nor Security." --Benjamin Franklin.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[mpe]

The only thing proved today is that whatever precautions they can think up, someone willing to bypass them, will succeed.

Indeed being more complex and/or comprehensive may actually make them easier to subvert or bypass.

Only if the government has absolute complete control over every citizen by means of microchips implanted in their brains, will they be able to ensure completely that things like this can't happen and still someone might be able to do it.

Except that even this dosn't work, the two problems are "information overload" and "who watches the watchers"...

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[Pig Hogger]

It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this.

Yeah, because of a few rotten apple (terrorists), we oughta scrap all our hard-won freedoms and liberties.

What's next to justify that? For the children?

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[bridgette]

4. ceramic gun
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/7931/ ce ramicguns.html

Compromise the security people themselves, by having your own people as security moles. They see their friends coming through, they don't mention what they see on the X-ray. I don't know enough about airport security to guess the difficulties involved.

I remember seeing Coolio on a talk show saying that he used to work airport security at LAX when he was a crackhead. Seriously. If you can get and hold down a job as airport security while addicted to crack then pretty much anything's possible. And it's probably not very hard to bribe any current crackheads on the job.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[Moofie]

Liberty has only one price: Blood. Blood of soliders, and sometimes blood of innocents. It's an unfortunate side effect of the human condition. I would MUCH rather live in a free society and run the risk of being killed by terrorists than live in a police state and risk being killed by the government. Terrorists are typically less well-organized.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[dvdeug]

But few living pilots are going to deliberately run into the World Trade Center when they can crash it into the bay. A replica handgun won't be good enough, especially if one of the passengers gets the idea you aren't {willing|going} to kill anyone with the guns.

Re:Facial recognition software, anyone?

[sjames]

It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this.

If enough people think that way, the terrorists won! They will have created terror and destroyed the American way of life.

If you want a technological solution, look at the airplane. We have technology that allows a plane to be flown remotely or even automatically (even land). Consider an emergency control in the cockpit. Pull the ring, and the flight controls go dead (actually fire squibs to break the connections, do damage). Let the plane continue on course and land at it's intended destination. There's no point in hijacking a plane that can and will do nothing but fly it's intended route and then land.

Consider the probability that the people who hijacked the planes probably were unknown to authorities at the time. How would face recognition pick out an unknown face in a crowd of unknown faces?

peace is not an abscence of war

[johnrpenner]

'Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue,
a state of mind; a disposition for benevolence, trust
and justice.' (Spinoza)

'Peace is a habit of mind, a way of seeing, that will make
harmony suceed. We have made mistrust and coercion our habit
of mind, and built our civilisation on the balance of power,
therefore we will reap war after war, and there will be violence
in our streets and even in our schools and homes.'
(Eknath Easwaran, Three Harmonies, Parabola Magazine,
November 1991, p. 50)

When those who are economically powerful are in a position to use
their power to wrest privileged rights for themselves, then among the
economically weak there will grow up a corresponding opposition to
these privileges; and this opposition must as soon as it has grown
strong enough lead to revolutionary disturbances. If the existence of
a special province of rights makes it impossible for such privileged
rights to arise, then disturbances of this sort cannot occur. . .
(Rudolf Steiner - Social Threefolding, 1920)

http://home.earthlink.net/~johnrpenner/Articles/ St einer-Social.html

Re:I hope...

[cnkeller]

As soon as one has spoken up, yes, he will be a flat spot on the wall.

Quote from US senator interview (Orin Hatch and JOhn MCCain) -- CNN

"We are going to find out who did this and hunt the bastards down."

You go boy, time to start kicking some terrorist ass...

An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind

[Anonymous Coward]

"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" - Ghandi

Are more dead people the answer here? Take a minute to think before screaming for vengence.

Webcams in NYC and D.C.

[bahtama]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/webcam s/eyeondc.htm - just got the idea to search for webcams and I found this one aimed at the Pentagon. You could probably find many more out there from http://www.webcam-index.com/USA/ or something like this site.

Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour

[cybrpnk]

The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.

Re:How to Donate Blood

[Rackemup]

First you'll need a bucket and a butter knife...

no no... I'm kidding... really

The Cdn Blood Agency has lots of locations, might even set up triage sites for those situations needing "emergency" supplies. Check your local phone books for numbers to contact the Canadian Blood Services.

I just donated a few weeks ago so I can't give again. Those people who don't donate because they "can never find the time" should get off their asses now.

Re:Peace ?

[AlefOne]

War is not dying for your contry, it is getting the other side to die for theirs. You stop people who are willing to die for their cause by granting their wish and wiping them out.

Sometimes, civilization has to eradicate the beastly savages who prey on the innocent. We've succeeded in the past, and I am confident we will succeed this time as well.

Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour

[Junks Jerzey]

Correct, this is not like Pearl Harbor in that is an attack on the US by a particular country. But the size of these attacks is absolutely huge. Bombs in London and the west bank have never, caused devastation of this magnitude. When the death tolls are in, they are going to be scary. Likely they will be larger than every other terrorist attack of the last twenty years combined.

This is where brains come in

[MarkusQ]

To summarize:

Counter attacking is not a good solution, for several reasons. 1) We do not know who to blame, and blind lynching leads to many problems, 2) even if we did know who to blame, counter attacking stands a good chance of angering others, and perpetuating the cycle, 3) even if we knew which nation to attack, and could get away with it, it is still wrong to kill people for the actions of others--we would be no better than the terrorists.

On the other hand, doing nothing is likewise unacceptable. It will send the message that these actions can be taken with impunity, and likely lead to further assaults. Failing to stand up for yourself is the best way to become a victim.

So, logically, we need to do something that is not a counter attack.

This is where brains come in. What can we do that will reduce or eliminate this kind of threat but isn't a blind reprisal? That is the question we should be turning our brains to.

-- MarkusQ

Re:This is where brains come in

[aralin]

Well, I think that get the fuck out of the Saudi Arabia and stop supporting their unjust government so bin Laden could fight them instead of bombing US targets could be a good start. No?

Re:This is where brains come in

[Zoop]

You should study the history of hijackings in the 1960s and 1970s before you talk about the "cycle of violence" that is perpetuated by standing up to terrorists. We appeased and appeased and negotiated and whined, and the incidents got more and more frequent until after we retaliated for the Berlin Disco bombing. And it wasn't a blind counterstrike, either. It was a very well-targeted counterstrike on the man responsible--who lives but doesn't cause us much trouble anymore.

So we know what will reduce the threat, the question is, do you have the guts to do it?

Re:This is where brains come in

[sydb]

That's called "giving in to terrorism" and is not de rigeur.

Re:This is where brains come in

[MarkusQ]

We appeased and appeased and negotiated and whined, and the incidents got more and more frequent until after we retaliated for the Berlin Disco bombing. And it wasn't a blind counterstrike, either. It was a very well-targeted counterstrike on the man responsible--who lives but doesn't cause us much trouble anymore.

I agree. The key concept here was that it was well targeted. Neither appeasement nor sweeping counterstrikes are the answer. We need to be smarter than that. One idea might be a reasoned and stately arrest and trial of the leaders, after they have been identified by a fair and honest investigation.

Another might be a move to decentralization. Or a re-examination of our foreign policy. Or equipping our planes with automated anti-hijacking systems that automatically fly them to a designated desert air strip and land them there on receipt of a command from the ground.

Or...

--MarkusQ

Re:This is where brains come in

[anshil]

At local televisoin (non US) they said most proparly they fear that the US will counterstrike on just anybody. If they will not know who it was it will be:

Where is the next best target?

Re:This is where brains come in

[geekoid]

You can not threaten fanatics into submission, they're fanatics. Fanatics don't care if they die.

what we can do is destroy any country that supports them, so next time these cowards need support other countries will think twice.

Re:This is where brains come in

[aralin]

No, thats called minding your own business and its the smart thing to do. Of course, we would later retaliate for the attacks on US, but tell me one reason why shall we give to the terrorist a reason for these attacks. It would be much harder for bin Laden to say: "Lets give our lives to attack us because they fucked with me and killed my troopers." than it is now when he can say: "Lets give our lives for a freedom of our country and fight these who occupy its land and support current unjust and oppresive government."

No supporters, no money, no big scale terror.

Re:This is where brains come in

[Hard_Code]

No, it's called not fucking in other people affairs and trying to reshape them in our image so that everybody hates us and WANTS to commit these acts against us. The ONLY solution for acts of hatred against the United States is simply to have *less people hate the United States*. Duh. There is no other response to terrorism. Terrorism lives on fear and hatred.

Pics and Video

[bert_mcdoy]

http://mambo.fiberio.net/ has quite a bit of both TV captures, personal pics, and video of whats been happening. It still amazes me how quickly news, pictures, and video can spread today thanks to our little friend, the internet.

Re:President Bush's Comments

[Chester K]

Note that he didn't fumble and stutter.

Yes, he did. He also took three seconds between each sentence to prepare for the next sentence. I'm glad Chaney's running the Situation Room.

Re:President Bush's Comments

[Hilary Rosen]

Read the story. Cheney is in charge now. Perhaps Bush's inarticulacy was caused by the stress of thinking he was President.

One Way Its Lihe PH - NO WARNING!!!!

[cybrpnk]

How in the HELL do you get FOUR hijackings with SUICIDAL leaders COORDINATED without ANY hint this was going down from the NSA or CIA??? Boy, those guys are going to get clobbered but good...

Re:One Way Its Lihe PH - NO WARNING!!!!

[cybrpnk]

Hooboy - I'll bet you're right....

Re:One Way Its Lihe PH - NO WARNING!!!!

[BitwizeGHC]

FDR had the Japanese codes months before Pearl Harbor.

He knew it would happen, and let it happen because he wanted the US in the war.

How many US government officials knew about this, and let it happen?

Re:One Way Its Lihe PH - NO WARNING!!!!

[SlippyToad]

Yeah. I imagine it's because our system is shit because it's too expensive to upgrade. I imagine after this a plane going off course will probably be instantly surrounded by fighter jets.

The United States is at war

[Camelot]

As has already been noted elsewhere - this is an act of war, and it can only responded to accordingly.

(FYI - I'm not a citizen of the US either).

Re:The United States is at war

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Untrue.

Technically, war only comes about after the leaders of the country have agreed that it is war.

No leader of any country have declared war on the US (or vice versa); and long may this situation remain.

It's just terrorism. ;-(

Is this a residential area?

[smcniven]

Sorry for being selfish and/or offtopic, but can anyone from New York tell me if there are residential areas near the World Trade Center? My sister-in-law is visiting some guy in New York and we can't get in touch with her (which is driving my wife crazy). All we know is that he is doing an Engineering PHD at a University in New York City. I'm pretty sure that she would be okay, but would appreciate any insight on the surrounding neighbourhoods. Thanks in advance.

Predictions

[BarefootClown]

First of all, I hope and pray for the safety of all involved, and commend the rescue workers who are putting their lives on the line to save others. These people are heroes in the truest sense, and deserve our undying admiration and respect.

Watching the news, all of the stations, particularly the military correspondents (Gen. Schwarzkopf included) talked about the complete failure of our intelligence community to provide us with any warning about this attack. Reporters asking "how could such a thing have happened with no warning," "haven't we infiltrated these groups," "how can you maintain secrecy on something this widespread," etc.

In a couple of weeks, I'm going to look like a prophet for this one. I predict that somebody will mention data security, including e-mail encryption. Whether correctly or not, somebody will propose it, and encryption, already a hot topic in National Security circles, will gain focus.

I predict that within a month, Congress will have drafted, and probably passed, a National Security Act to address the threat of terrorism. In that act, I fully expect to see severe restrictions on the use of secure data systems, including encryption of any form (e-mail, PGP file encryption/encrypted file systems, even SSH and SSL), anonymity (anonymous bulletin boards, including such things as Slashdot), and relaxation of wiretapping laws. E-mail will be required to be send in plaintext, Carnivore will be restored to active duty, and put on more servers with more keywords and more aggressive monitoring. Cell phones, already ruled to be not private, will be actively monitored by the government, as will landline phones--remember, cordless phones (you know you all have them) emit RF too, and the few that have scrambling systems are easily compromised.

Also expect to see civil liberties severely curtailed, at least for a while. Meeting with friends at odd hours (odd to the rest of the world, normal to geeks)? Suspicious. Phone calls to friends in other countries, or of other nationailities (particularly Middle Eastern)? Suspicious. Use of encryption/security? Suspicious squared--after all, what do you have to hide?

My big prediction, though, is that the American Sheeple will hail this as a Good Thing, and support it wholeheartedly. The Sheeple will automatically say that anything that improves security must be a Good Idea, and will fall into line without even considering the ramifications.

Mark my words, my friends: today has been one small step for terrorism, but one giant leap for the police state.

Re:Predictions

[Ratbert42]

Reasonable predictions. I'll add one: we'll occupy Afganistan by the end of the year.

Re:Predictions

[Reality Master 101]

You didn't phrase it as a bet, but I'll take the bet anyway.

It's not going to happen. My question is whether people like you will learn anything when it doesn't.

Re:Predictions

[Chris Johnson]

Given that terrorism isn't going to go away, and that it can send multiple coordinated suicide airliners into your buildings, how exactly is a no-privacy surveillance state worse?

Re:Predictions

[jafac]

wheee! maybe I can get a job reading your email for the US Govt! That sounds absolutely POSH!

Re:Predictions

[aardvarkjoe]

"Nah... It was just a bit of hyperbole. But mark my words ... in a couple hundred years or so, it'll happen. I guarantee."

Re:Predictions

[locust]

Watching the news, all of the stations, particularly the military correspondents (Gen. Schwarzkopf included) talked about the complete failure of our intelligence community to provide us with any warning about this attack. Reporters asking "how could such a thing have happened with no warning," "haven't we infiltrated these groups," "how can you maintain secrecy on something this widespread," etc.

A co-worker and I did the math on this. You need a minum of 4 people, 8 for better success. They have to coordinate... But: If they are people working at air ports (in bagadge handling or cleaning) they can get a weapon(s) on a plane. Security at US airports isn't exactly tight. Then you need someone who can fly an aircraft enough to steer, not take it off or land it. After take off, the armed party goes to the front bathroom, slips into the cockpit kills both pilots, and locks the door (or there is another person there for crowd control). You need one, but more likely two people per plane. In a country of 300 million, with our freedoms you have to look out for 8 guys.

--
locust

Re:Predictions

[AdamHaun]

Actually, Orrin Hatch was on CNN talking about the need for better *human* intelligence, and the need to better understand the motivations of the people involved in these attacks. Here's holding out hope that we buy more spies instead of more cameras.

Re:Predictions

[BlueTurnip]

Can't happen. An outright ban on encryption would completely collapse the e-commerce sector. Encryption is far to ingrained in business to business transactions in the form of VPNs, SSL secure websites owned by vendors, banking transactions, etc. Not only would an outright ban like you suggest weaken security to the point of making such transactions impossible, but the logistics of removing or disabling encryption from the working software systems that run today's e-conomy would be far too formidable to make it possible.

At worst, some sort of key-escrow proposal will be put forward, but would take so long to implement, that people will have cooled down and saner heads will previal.

The thing to watch out for is a SSSCA-like law being passed under the guise of protecting us from terrorists.

Re:Predictions

[Hilary Rosen]

Right. That worked for the Russians, after all.

Re:Predictions

[Pinball Wizard]

and may I remind you, that the US has declared martial law before, and suspended habeous corpus and other civil liberties.

Abraham Lincoln declared martial law during the Civil War. It was necessary then, it may be necessary in the near future.

Don't bother with your "Those who would give up their freedom for safety" quotes. When we are in the midst of defending our lives and our freedom, keeping people alive must come first.

We declare martial law in order to preserve freedom, not destroy it. You need to look at the bigger picture.

Re:Predictions

[ez76]

Prophecy is cheap. It's a cowardly way to straddle history, not participate in it.

Why not try and propose a solution to the debacle we're going to face in the near-term, rather than parrot your overzealous liberal peers?

Re:Predictions

[mpe]

Then you need someone who can fly an aircraft enough to steer, not take it off or land it.

Or more likely you get the regular flight crew to get you into the right kind of location. Which makes it look more like a regular hijacking, which pilots and ATC are trained to cope with.

Re:Predictions

[Kombat]

You self-proclaimed prophets really irritate me. Here's something I'll bet you don't see in your little crystal ball: people just like you came out of the woodwork after the Oklahoma City bombing and made the EXACT SAME ridiculous predictions. Underestimating the intelligence of your fellow citizens (or "Sheeple", as you like to call them) does not serve to make you look smarter - it only makes you look arrogant.

In times like this, the LAST thing your country needs is fear-mongerers like you spreading FUD. What it needs is blood donations. So can the doomsday garbage that we've all seen a thousand times before, every time there's a Columbine or a Lockerbie. It's CRAP, people are smarter than you give them credit for, and you're really annoying.

Well Great.

[FFFish]

I'm watching CBC television, The National. The desk reporter is superlative, and I'll be writing CBC to give accolades.

Now that there's less action on the ground, we're getting all the "experts" in as talking heads.

And the unfortunate thing is that some of them are instigating racial hatred. Well, cultural hatred, at any rate.

The same thing is beginning to happen on Slashdot: wingnuts wanting to obliterate Palestian, and even some who want to nuke the entire mid-East.

GET A CLUE!

The US can't just walk in and kill every damn Muslim and Arab. That'd be a worse atrocity than the attack on the WTC -- and the retaliation would make today's events look like a trip to Disneyland.

There must be retaliation...but it must be rational!

Use your cluesticks with impunity. Contact your news stations and let them know that they're being destructive, not constructive; join the message boards and preach cautious, considered reactions; and remain calm.

[Please also note that more people die every day or two in traffic accidents, than were killed in the attack. It's a tragedy, but not much worse than the tragedy we live with every day... it's just that we don't expect terrorist attacks.]

Re:Well Great.

[dillon_rinker]

Approximately 25,000 die annually in traffic accidents. There have been reasonable estimates of deaths in the tens of thousands in this attack. We'll know how bad it was in a week or so; it always looks worse than it really is right in the middle of a crises.

Re:Well Great.

[nublord]

Amen!!!

update, summary

[abde]

All news outlets on the Internet are shut down due to massive surge in traffic, so I am summarizing from reports collected via television, as well as friends in CNN , New York, and Boston. The best source for news is probably television broadcast, or your local city's newspaper website. CNN.com has dropped all extraneous links and ads and has a single story at : http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/worldtrade.crash/ story.html , which summarizes most of the available confirmed information so far.

Around 8:00 AM (Central Time), two passenger planes smashed into one each of the towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, not more than twenty minutes apart. Around 9:00 AM, one tower of the WTC collapsed. People were seen jumping out of the 101-story (1,360 feet) building's topmost floors. At about 9:30, the second tower also collapsed. Both towers of the World Trade Center have been utterly destroyed.

At about the same time, a passenger plane also crashed into the Pentagon building in Washington DC, collapsing part of the building.

American Airlines confirmed today that it lost two aircraft, Flight 11, a Boeing 767 en route from Boston to Los Angeles with 81 passengers, nine flight attendants and two pilots; and Flight 77, a Boeing 757 operating from Washington Dulles to Los Angeles with 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots. These two flights were likely the ones that crashed into the WTC.

United airlines confirms that it has lost two flights. Flight 93 from Newark to San Francisco was apparently deliberately crashed by the pilot, sacrificed to avoid hitting a target. Another rumor states that it was shot down by an F-16. Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles is unaccounted for, possibly crashed. It is possible but unconfirmed that Flight 175 was the one that hit the Pentagon.

Car bombs have been reported at the US Capitol and the State Department, but the reports were contradictory. There also seems to be an explosion of some kind on the National Mall.

The White House, State Department, Treasury, and Pentagon have all been evacuated. Manhattan island has been quarantined, United Nations has been evacuated, and Wall Street has suspended trading. Canary Wharf in London, CN Tower in Toronto, The Sears Tower, Chicago Board of Trade, and John Hancock Center in Chicago, the John Hancock and Prudential Towers in Boston, and CNN Center in Atlanta have all been evacuated/locked down. All Disney parks in Orlando, Florida, and Disneyland in Anaheim, California have been closed. Major downtown centers in cities across the United States are also being evacuated. The Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) has grounded *all* flights in the USA, for the first time in history. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no-fly zone over NYC.

The foreign office in the UK has issued the following number for worried relatives here, regarding the recent attacks upon buildings inthe US: 020 7008 0000

Yasser Arafat condemned the attack: "I send my condolences, the condolences of the Palestinian people to American President (George W.) Bush and his government and to the American people for this terrible act," Arafat told reporters in Gaza on Tuesday.
"We completely condemn this serious operation...We were completely shocked. It's unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable."
(http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010911/80/c3l1a.html)

Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, said in reaction to the news of the terror attacks that "we want to tell the American children that Afghanistan feels your pain and we hope that the courts find justice."
(http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/0 9/ 11/afghan.taliban/index.html)

There have been a number of denials of responsibility by Palestinian groups and by the Al Quaida group headed by fugitive Saudi accused terrorist Osama bin Laden.

(Foxnews.com) Smoke from New York City is visible from the International Space Station.

Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour

[hearingaid]

Agreed, but it's not Dresden either.

It is bigger than Tripoli: 270 people were killed when Reagan ordered the attack on a civilian target. There were more people than that just on the planes.

Las Vegas Security

[torklugnutz]

So far, Nellis AFB is on Delta Security Level (as are all military bases, by now, I'm sure) and the Hoover Dam is closed to traffic. People are being diverted to Laughlin by US 95. The Meadows Mall, Stratosphere Tower and Convention Center are also closed. School is still in session, as well as UNLV.

US currency is trading at 1.4759 USD to 1 GBP, according to Yahoo! Finance.

Considering a Cowardly Act of Muder

[ChaoticCoyote]

Reading the responses here on Slashdot, I'm both hopeful and disgusted. EVen something as terrible as this morning's murders is food for the trolls of the universe. On the other hand, I proud to call myself a geek when I read mesages from many fine, caring people here.

So perhaps Slashdot is a good reflection of humanity in general, showing both our good and bad sides.

Here at Coyote Gulch, we're still trying to cope with today's terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. We've finally accounted for family, friends and coworkers; I'm grateful that everyone is all right.

Everyone, American or not, must be vigilant that these vcious acts of cowardice do not become tools of self-serving politicians; we can not allow horror to destroy what it is that makes us Americans: our freedoms. This is not the time to hide in our shells, or to the U.S. government turn against its own citizens. As the emotion subsides, we need to find the strength to approach this from the standpoint of justice.

It is never acceptable to kill innocents, whether by terrorist bomb or high-tech missile. I'm all in favor of revenge against the sources of today's atrocities. But revenge must be tempered by knowledge; flattening Kabul or Baghdad is not the solution. We must find who did this, and cleanly ensure that they cannot murder again.

And a final plea: Give blood. Wherever you are. Now. Don't wait. Just do it. Call the Red Cross, call your local hospital, and give a pint to save a life. The best way to respond to death is the celebrate and protect life.

Re:Navy base near DC shut down

[slickwillie]

It IS war.

Well, one difference is that in a real war, soldiers kill other soldiers. In this case, a handful of cowards killed hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians.

There will be HELL to pay

[MtViewGuy]

Folks,

This is way more than an act of terrorism.

WE MAY BE TALKING 50,000 DEAD! That is without doubt an act of war.

I know I'll get modded way down for this, but I will not be surprised if our nuclear forces are now at DEFCON 2 alert, and instructions to target every terrorist-sponsoring state in the Middle East are already sent to our nuclear forces in preparation for a truly massive retaliatory attack. We may be kissing Damascus, Tehran, Baghdad, Tripoli, Khartoom and Kabul goodbye by the end of this week. :-(

Re:There will be HELL to pay

[nagora]

WE MAY BE TALKING 50,000 DEAD!

Oh, calm down. Why does everything have to be made worse by people exagerating? Isn't the truth bad enough for you, for fuck's sake?

Re:There will be HELL to pay

[Oztun]

I wish someone would post how many people we or our weapons have killed in the middle east in the past few years. I bet its a lot more than 50,000.

Re:There will be HELL to pay

[Ryu2]

It was very early in the morning (0545 Eastern), thank goodness! So, hopefully actual casualities will be much, much lower than 50000! One can only hope.

Re:There will be HELL to pay

[Ryu2]

Correction, sorry, 0845 Eastern! Still hoping that people didn't show up too early for work...

Re:Nostradamus

[gamgee5273]

Which easily could describe the Civil War...

Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour

[Phillip2]

"Hopefully, this will do something to make sure these cowards are brought to justice, and that there will be no more such attacks anywhere."

I think its clear that many of the individiuals involved in this attack must have lost their lives during the course of it. This may well make them misguided, it may make them stupid, but it probably does not make them cowards.

I think that the original poster was wrong. We not know how bad the situation is yet, but its clear that there will have been a large loss of life. The situation is as big a disaster as Pearl Harbour.

In another way I think he is right though. The response to this sort of action can be an enormous upswelling of hate. There have been many periods in the past when powerful individuals have used this to commit massive atrocities against other countries, and an of course also against the citizens of their own countries.

Hate is a dangerous emotion. In the end it damages everbody, and everyones freedom is lessened by it. Its a very real danger for the US at a time like this. And of course if its a risk to the US, then its a risk for the rest of us as well.

Phil

We citizens reap what our leaders sow

[Anonymous Coward]

The innocent lives lost are tragic and unprecendented (in the US at least--think of Vietnam, Bosnia, WW2, Siege of Leningrad and others). But we reap what our leaders past and present sow. We are a super power and an empire and so draw the wrath of thesoe we hold dominion over. And we are a free society, so hitting us from within is easier than it could be. The Roman Empire faced terroism by the Gauls and other tribes on their borders. If we as a nation, continue to support land theft, assasination and torture in throughout the world in order to maintain our empire (Chile, Vietnam, Agentina, Iran, Israel, and many more: Ask Kissinger/Bush Sr./Rumsfeld for details) then we must expect retribution will at least be attempted. It is sad to see it apparently acheived by somebody with some axe to grind: for they never kill the guilty, but instead destroy the lives of many innocent people for no purpose. They can even come from our own as in McVeigh. Terrorism is a sad, sad tactic for in leaving the guilty unpunished and killing innocents does nothing to help a cause. It jsut makes the world a meaner, less humane place. Funny huamne derives from human and it is humans who are the least humane of all animals.

Retaliation/Retribution will not work

[dada21]

Click on 09-11-2001

I don't believe fighting back will work. History has proven that the big country can not fight guerilla warfare battles and succeed. One reason we won our fight against England 250 years ago is because WE were the terrorists.

I say get out of funding wars (on one side, or on both sides) and bring peace back to American soil.

BRITAIN IS NOT SHUTTING DOWN!

[nagora]

London is open and fairly unconcerned (although appalled); US and financial institutions are on alert or closed but they make up a very small part of the population.

TWW

Serious questions for anyone who's been in the WTC

[ergo98]

1) How long does it take to evacuate one? Presume it's by stairs on the first one given that the elevators were likely blown out of service immediately.

2) Would they have evacuated the first hit building immediately? This sounds absurd but often people seem to have a "whatever" attitude, so I wonder if anyone from there knows if an evacuation started immediately.

3) Would they have simultaneously evacuated the second building? Don't they share a common section at the bottom?

My questions are because I'm unwilling to think that 40,000 people in the building = 40,000 deaths. There was a good period of time between the first plane hitting and the second hitting, and then a period of time before the buildings collapsed. It is my hope that many survived and made it out.

Re:better sources

[grammar nazi]

What you say, marcop, is very interesting.

On another very interesting note, (I live in NYC, work on Wall St, was evacuated after the first tower collapsed), of the major media channels in the city, television, telephone, cel phone, the only one that still currently works is my internet connection.

However, websites as you mentioned, are still going down. These internet sites are going down based *NOT* on geographic location, rather on content of the incident. The other media channels are going down due to geographic their location.

I'm either babbling or it's an interesting sidenote.

Anyways, I'm off to go give blood. IF you live in NYC or in the USA, please GIVE BLOOD TODAY!!!!!

GIVE BLOOD

GIVE BLOOD

Somebody's life may depend upon it.

Nuclear War

[FortKnox]

You know what's scary? This is one of those rare, rare times when the government can use nuclear weapons on a country (that is found responsible), and the majority (day I say all?) of the US will completely back it.

We need justice, but I hope you understand conventional warfare can provide justice just as much as nuclear war. Nukes are a scary thing...

Re:Nuclear War

[stikves]

Actually frech news site AFP says that a japanese terrorist group, called "Red Army" has claimed that they have done this as a conter to the nuclear attacks which are infameous.

The site is down. Even the google cache does not work. So I cannot add any more details. Anyway Filistin, Usame bin Ladin or Japanese, this even is NO GOOD!

Re:Nuclear War

[cybrpnk]

You are absolutely right and it is very scary. I personally think there are better than even odds at this point about at least one nuke getting used just to emphasize the point that if America gets hit like this, we are going to pull out ALL the stops.

WAR!

[Louis Savain]

I pray that I am wrong but I see a major war between the Western Christian world (mainly U.S. and Europe) and the Muslim world (especially the Arab world) in the not too distant future. The hatred between these two major groups have moved to unprecedented levels. I also see a complete destruction of the Muslim world. I don't think the people who did this realize the magnitude of the military and economic power of the Western world. Neither Jihad nor Mohammed will protect them from what's coming.

Sorry for sounding so pessimistic. I am normally an optimist but this is the two-by-four between the eyes that will bring the wrath and fury of a really pissed off giant.

Re:WAR!

[Mr.Phil]

Religion is NOT the cause of this crime. The criminals that did this have TWISTED thier religion to pretend that this is a Holy War.

Islam, at it's heart, is about peace. The killing of innocents is abhorent to Allah (God).

Other news sources

[hearingaid]

Salon is still up. Also, so is The Toronto Star, the largest-circulation paper in Canada. Salon's newswire listings are flooding with coverage.

Just announced State of Emergency: DC and VA

[GMontag]

Latest from WTPOP-FM Washington, DC/Manassas, VA

Mayor Williams of DC has just declaired state of emergency in DC. DC Government closed.

VA Governor declairs State of Emergency.

Camp David airplane crash report is false.

Regan National Airport to remain closed until at least 1100 12 Sep 2001

Massive gridlock leaving DC, similar to the first flake of snow day in this area (locals will know what I mean).

Reminders that low flying aircraft around Dulles and National Airports are US MILITARY aircraft, NOT foreign.

Reminders to stay off the phone.

Real Flight Information

[ZxCv]

The flights that crashed into the WTC towers were both American flights. Straight from a story on Boston.com, there's a breakdown on the known plane crashes:

-American Flight 11
Boston to Los Angeles
A Boeing 767 with 81 passengers, nine flight attendants, and two pilots aboard crashed into the World Trade Center.

-American Flight 77
Washington-Dulles to Los Angeles
A Boeing 757 with 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots crashed into the World Trade Center.

-United Flight 93
Newark, N.J. to San Francisco
A Boeing 757 with 38 passengers, two pilots and five flight attendants crashed southeast of Pittsburgh.

-United Flight 175
Boston to Los Angeles
A Boeing 767 with 56 passengers, two pilots and seven flight attendants crashed, but United won't say where

It's all about the eleven's (11)

[vt0asta]

"American" Airlines Flight "11"

Today is September 11th

What did the two towers look like?

Re:It's all about the eleven's (11)

[geekoid]

are you saying were being attacked by 2 face?

Re:Oh christ, the politics already...

[Chris Johnson]

Of course it's politics. The notion of the US being the 'Great Satan' is politics. The way the US has been inflicting uncontrolled freemarket capitalism on the rest of the world is politics, and the people who freak out over this are also politics.

Attempting to destroy New York City is beyond politics- that's war. The response will be war.

But the _causes_ of this are politics. I've seen a few brave posters from outside the US saying, "Um, you really think this is unprovoked?" and they should be listened to.

In my opinion, we are obviously heading into a world where the nation-state is no longer the focus. I've heard the terrorist organisation responsible for this is multinational and extends all over the world. That's much like the corporations we have, which do things like try and sue Indian farmers over growing rice that was native to India in the first place, which try and tie economic relief to a political system, which try and inflict our screwed-up intellectual property notions on the rest of the world- and those guys are multinational too, and often with economic coercion to rival actual countries.

I'm not sure there is a country that could have done us as much damage, in a conventional military attack, as this multinational 'terrorist' organization did in its attack.

As to the democrat/republican thing: hell, I voted Green/Progressive, and lost. I believe if Gore had won, this day would still have happened. BOTH the Dems and Reps represent a particular type of American political system- one that obviously has insane, fanatical enemies.

The fact that the enemies are fanatics making suicide attacks does not make the American political system right. The fact that we need to fight back now does not make us blameless- we just happen to be the ones expected to deliver the counterstrike. When we've done that, we damn well better take a look at whether we're really 'all that and a bag of chips' ourselves. How can we face ourselves knowing that our country wields huge force in the world, and yet half of us won't even vote for _President_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing? That's got to stop- we've got to smarten up and take responsibility.

If we want all the world to _agree_ that we aren't 'the great satan', we have got to pay closer attention to what our country, our capitalist economic system, our political system, are doing out there. This didn't come out of nowhere. We've known about the resentment for a long time, over all sorts of things and in all sorts of ways, and mostly we've just flat out ignored anyone who dared to suggest we weren't the apex of creation.

Once we've got through this next bit, we have _got_ to grow up...

CNN alternate page

[precize]

http://robots.cnn.com...it's mostly text and hasn't been overloaded yet.

NYC Blood Donor Info--PLEASE MOD UP

[remande]

I got these in a search for NYC blood banks and centers via www.bigyellow.com. I cannot confirm that these are blood donor centers, nor can I contact the Red Cross 800 number (both the phone line and the Web page are slashdotted).

If you are in NYC and looking to donate blood, I would consider physically going to the site rather than using the phone. I am not in the city; those there should decide for themselves whether the transportation system or the phone lines are clogged up worse.

American Red Cross - Family Respite Center
4 East 28th Street, New York, NY 10016
(212) 213-0755

American Red Cross
150 Amsterdam Avenue, New York, NY 10023
(212) 580-2821

International Committee of the Red Cross
801 2nd Avenue, New York, NY 10017
(212) 599-6021

International Federation of Red Cross
800 2nd Avenue, New York, NY 10017
(212) 338-0161

Also, if you are in the NYC area, consider seeing if these Red Cross chapters or anyone providing relief efforts to see if they need unskilled volunteers--setting up tents, manning the food lines, etc. See your local place of worship, regardless of your religious persuasions--many of them may be providing relief efforts.

Re:Fort Drum Army Base

[Russ Nelson]

That's a problem because a major highway goes straight through the base.
-russ

Re:I hope...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an act of war against the United States. To say that violence doesn't solve anything is incorrect. Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers. If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth, and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with appropriately. Given the magnitude of the actions taken today, and the loss of life, I can honestly say I would not have any problem whatsoever with a full military response using whatever means neccessary to ensure that the same individuals responsible for this are unable to ever cause anything like this ever again. This is a war involving American citizens. There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions against the United States will be met with such an incredible and unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane, or otherwise would even conceive of the idea. As for the Palastinian people cheering, I now have no pity for them when Israeli tanks bulldoze their homes and obliterate their towns. And I would support any military action to protect Israel from any attacks from other Arab nations while they eliminate the terrorist elements in the area. To cheer in favor of terrorist actions is to align yourself with the perpetrators. This is the real thing. Thousands of people have died, thousands are wounded. It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.

Why can't they make armored cockpits?

[MongooseCN]

If the terrorists can't get into the cockpit, they can't steer the plane to where they want.

Re:Why can't they make armored cockpits?

[ConsumedByTV]

Perhaps it would help if it wasnt someone that was allowed to be in the cockpit (ie pilot stewart etc)

Baha'i Perspective

[under_score]

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." - Baha'u'llah "The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective." - Baha'u'llah "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Baha'u'llah Official Baha'i Web Site

Nah...

[Gorimek]

There are 15 million potential blood donors in the NY region, and all air traffic is down, so I unless you're in the area, extra blood donations probably won't make any difference.

Also, in event like these, most people either die immediately or escape unharmed. I expect tens of thousands of dead, but not too many injuried.

Of course, if there are new attacks, a good blood supply will be good.

I'm O-Negative

[Russ Nelson]

I'm O-Negative, but they don't want my blood. Once, after bicycling to a blood drive, my liver was working too hard (probably removing the shit from the fat I'd just burned), and produced enzymes in my blood saying that it was working too hard. The Red Cross thinks I have Hepatitis, and they have banned me FOREVER from giving blood. Haven't they ever heard of experimental error?
-russ

BLACK BOXES

[SpookComix]

If we want to gather intelligence to at least point us in the right direction of the organization responsible--we need to at *least* recover the "black box" from the aircraft that went down in PA. Perhaps we could get something from the pilot, or other background noise, to explain what happend to that particular flight, and help us understand the other hijacked flights.

--SC

Re:BLACK BOXES

[passion]

Don't they give off signals, so that they can be found at the bottom of the ocean, etc.? Any chance they'll be discovered at the bottom ot the pile of the WTC rubble?

Re:BLACK BOXES

[SpookComix]

Oh, yeah, you can recover a little black box from the giant pile of rubble of one of the tallest buildings in the world, after it collapsed on itself, after a jet crashed into it and exploded. That'll work.

Exactly, dumbass, that's why I specifed that "we need to at *least* recover the "black box" from the aircraft that went down in PA."

PA = Pennsylvania, if you didn't know.

--SC

Re:BLACK BOXES

[SpookComix]

I understand that the "black boxes" aren't actually black. I also know that there are many of them, and that they are scattared throughout the plane. I also understand that they record many things, mostly about the actual operation of the craft.

I also know, however, that cockpit conversation is recorded as well. That's what is most interesting to me. Anything the pilot might have said to leave a clue as to what exactly was happening, who was behind it, *where the PA plane was actually supposed to crash*, etc...this would all be great information to have.

--SC

NYC Hospital Locations -- DONATE BLOOD!!!

[autarkeia]

You can find a listing here and good old MapQuest here.

My boyfriend and I are going to Goveurnor's on the Lower East Side. You can also call 800.933.BLOOD (800.933.2566) for locations, but good luck getting through.

Peace, everyone.

Re:Canadian border still open- Closed

[Nos.]

Canadian and Mexican borders are now being closed according to news sources (CBC, NBC). Some are still open, but will soon be closed to ALL ground traffic.

A better solution...

[nagora]

Perhaps the US, instead of initiating another useless "investigation" (ie frame-up) like the Lockerbie trial, it should just stop interfering in other people's countries?

I come from Northern Ireland and I can assure everyone here that the type of people that did this are the same sort of people that Americans have supported with fund-raising events for decades.

This is a horror of a crime, but it was bound to happen. If you throw your weight around everywhere you have to accept that some day someone, good or evil, will object and in the latter case, they won't care too much about who gets in the way.

Re:A better solution...

[dvdeug]

How long should Britian have waited before getting involved in WWI? Should they have let Germany conquer Russia, and murder every Jew and Slav west of France?

When does it become our buisness? Apparently, the mere massacre of innocents does not concern us. Apparently neither does the murder of American citizens (the Lockerbie trail), nor attacks on American embassies, nor bombs on American soil (the earlier World Trade Center bombing.)

When the US should get involved is a good question, but the answer is _not_ never. At the very least, the US has the obligation to protect American citizens, and respond to threats to them, especially on American soil.

Re:A better solution...

[nagora]

When the US should get involved is a good question, but the answer is _not_ never.

I agree. Unfortunately, the current answer seems to be "at the whiff of money". There is such a thing as getting involved to often, as well as too infrequently.

Re:Plea for peace - Huh? Get Real!

[beardcz]

So what you are saying is that it is OK to harm Afghani or Sudanese women, children, and innocent civilians but it is not OK to harm innocent US civilians.

Would I like to see your face when Bush determines that it was someone from (say) Dallas Texas and shoots a few cruise missiles into the town center to punish those responsible... Sure, there might be some collateral damage but THEY HAVE TO BE TAUGHT A LESSON!!!

Said After pearl Harbor

[KingKire64]

Washington Governor Arthur B. Langlie (1900-1966) made the following statement shortly the United States declared war:

"Your state government is prepared and ready to perform every defense task which has or will be assigned to it. The State of Washington is on the frontier of a great war. We do not know what the future holds in store for us. We do not know what trials we must go through or what sacrifices we will be called upon to make. We do know what is at stake. We know that our country, our liberties and our very homes are threatened. We are individually and as a nation being called upon to make good our pledge of allegiance to flag and country" (Seattle Star).

Agreed

[FreeUser]

I will probably regret expressing this opinion once emotions have calmed down, but after watching circa 50k people die live on television I, at this moment, have to agree.

This is war.

We find whoever did this. We kill them. We kill their families. We kill their friends, and we kill their allies.

If it turns out to be a domestic attack then the situation is more complicated, as protecting our democracy becomes paramount over revenge or even complete justice. However, if, as it appears, this was a foreign act (such as Bin Laden), then we should exterminate those who did this (such as his organization) as well as any and all who gave the enemy aid and comfort (e.g. hypothetically, if it was bin laden, Afghanistan most definitely, perhaps others as well).

The only way to secure one against these kinds of attacks is to completely exterminate those who would commit them. This is most definetely war, and we have the means to put an end to this, perminently.

We should do so.

Re:Agreed

[FreeUser]

We kill as many as is needed to put an end to this kind of atrocity. If that means all of them, then so be it. I hope not, but this is war, and if it is us or them, I vote most emphatically that it be them.

Re:Peace ?

[Riplakish]

Invinvible?

Try this logic:

They believe that they will be blessed by their God for dying for their religious beliefs. So, we kill all of them, that way they are one with their God, and are happy. They are dead and can't harm us so we're happy. It's a win-win for everyone.

interesting

[British]

In times of Emergency, churches and such are turned into makeshift hospitals,etc.

Now on the internet I am seeing various un-slammed websites(fark,etc) are now turning into realtime newsites, etc as fast as they get the info on what's going on today.

Intresting. Especially when ESPN is now reporting on the attacks.

Special memorial service in SF

[sulli]

Presumably in many other areas as well. There is a special service at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco at noon PDT to mourn the victims and pray for peace. Also tomorrow at 6 pm.

Terrorists want Retaliation

[Arkaein]

There's been a lot of posts talking about how we need to strike back, and hard. I hope everyone here realizes that's what the terrorists want.

Terrorism is not about strategy or tacticts, these acts were not battles in a war. they served no strategic or tactical purpose, the group that perpetrated these acts is not going to move in and conquer, or anything like that. The purpose of terrorism is to generate fear and political tension.

All this commotion the politicians are making is exactly what the terrorists wanted. They have succeeded in the first steps of disrupting American lifestyle. By making huge reactions we're fulfilling the terrorists goals.

What we need to do is first keep calm and tend to our victims. Second we need to take a few days (at least) to cool off and evaluate ways we can improve security and information access (why was it so hard to figure out which planes crashed? can't we keep track of where a plane is in the air?). Finally, and most difficult, we need to figure how to go back about our lives. We need to show that terrorism is an impotent tool.

Re:Terrorists want Retaliation

[lavaforge]

Pearl Harbor disrupted our lifestyle too.

I agree with the need for calm and rational thought, but we cannot allow individuals to commit such acts with impunity. I guess we'll find out if the U.S. can still go balls to the wall or if that fire has gone out of us.

Re:Terrorists want Retaliation

[sien]

Ok, first of all I'd like to say that I am going to wildly speculate and say that I believe that this action was carried out by a muslim group.
The reason this has been done was not completely illogical or irrational. The fact is that American efforts in the middle east backing up Israel and the continued blockade or Iraq - that has killed at least 200 000 people can be seen as a defacto war. Check this link for details on deaths in Iraq.
As for Israel, the United States gives around $5 000 000 000 in direct aid to Israel, plus access to military secrets and weapons of untold value. Israel has nuclear weapons. Secondly ~$2 000 000 000 in aid is given to Egypt on the proviso that they leave Israel alone.
The Bush administration has said on Israel it intends to step back - if stepping back is billions of dollars of aid and backing up Israel unquesionably I sincerely ask the US to step back with regard to me too.
This action is not silly terrorism, it is simply another act in a war that the United States has been fighting for 50 years.

Im setting up a mirror of his pictures

[Mes]

Im setting up a mirror of Neck_of_the_Woods' pictures.

http://mesmerism.net/wtc.html

Re:Just Give Blood Components!

[bungalow]

Consider giving blood components.

I know a lot of places run people in to "donate" plasma - and then give the donors a check for a ~1 - 2 donation. The check structure is based so that those who need the income, are prompted to go in on a regular basis:

1st week:
Day 1 $25
Day 2 $15
2ND WEEK:
DAY 3 $20
DAY 4 $25

These places take in just about anyone, but test blood before thaey take it. There is usually long lines and it's uncomfortable.

If you don't like taking money for blood donations, check out Carter Blood Center. They will accept platelet donations 2x per week, and repay donors with the standard cookie / apple juice fare. It's also a longer process - about 1n hour, and you've got needles in both arms. But the nurses have to totally wait on you, and they let you bring in movies to watch, or watch the ones there. An excellent setup. As an added bonus, there's the excuse to drink two extra milkshakes a week - this is recommended to make up for the Calcium and protein loss.

Re:Serious questions for anyone who's been in the

[Fatal0E]

The time diff between the first crash and the second is only about 20 minutes. I think most of the people didn't need to be told that they need to evacuate Tower 2 after Tower 1 was attacked. Most NYers do have that whatever attitude, that much is true, but sticking around would be stupid. Having been in there a number of times, I don't think the majority of the people had the time or even the ability to escape but I pray I'm wrong.

Shock and Disbelief

[Pinchy]

First, unless the major news outlets are keeping it hushed up, we don't even know who is responsible for this, and speculation by all the news media and politicians is reckless and just adding to the atmosphere of hysteria. If it turns out to be Mid-East terrorists, fine. But until we know for sure, I'm getting tired listening to all these speculations.

Second, I'm getting sick and tired of listening to American's disbelief and shock over this tragedy. How is it that the US can enjoy the highest standard of living and quality of life in the world? How is it that the US consumes the most resources, far more than its far share, in the world? Do Americans really think that all of our wealth has just been willingly handed to us by grateful people throughout the world? Do Americans really think that we have no blood on our hands?

I'm sick about these terrorist attacks. When I first heard about them this morning, I felt sick to my stomach. But I feel that way about any terrorist attack in any country, not just in the US. And unless you work at being ignorant, you will know that the US has been responsible for its share of terrorism throughtout the world.

We can continue to feel free to go about our daily lives, enjoying our excess of resources and high quality of living, never asking where it all came from or why the majority of people in the world don't seem to enjoy the same. But we have no right to be shocked that someone out there doesn't like us.

what does this mean for our freedoms?

[fringd]

all i can think is that this will only mean tightened security. i don't doubt that this might be cited for any number of measures to quash our right to bear cryptography. people will wonder who these folks are, and how they organized. "why," they shall wonder, "didn't the cia or fbi intercept their phone calls, emails, or whatever, and stop them before they acted?"

what do you think? are they right? do we need to give up our right to privacy to stop tragedies like this? i for one fear what may come of this, ontop of the seemingly staggering death count.

Re:what does this mean for our freedoms?

[Chris Johnson]

It's a good question. Having crypto, privacy, and the ability to secretly communicate with anyone anywhere in the world, means one thing when the 'risk' of it is that someone will take a car bomb and blow up a building. And that is what we have tended to think of, when we think of terrorist action- and a lot of us have been ready to accept that, in exchange for the freedom of the many, and personal privacy.

When the 'private' thing turns out to be a fucking all-out assault on NEW YORK CITY levelling the World Trade Center with multiple fucking suicide airliners, never mind the simultaneous attacks on many other targets... well, just how bad _do_ you need to be private? Does your need for privacy in your harmless personal stuff balance out with organisations that can use the same privacy to send fucking AIRLINERS into the World Trade Center until the buildings fall over with God knows what loss of life? This isn't like a car-bomb.

I'm not sure I'm ready to place my privacy rights over the ability of my government to find out about these things and act to stop or block them. Supposing the government literally did read my hard drive anytime they wanted, looked at my naughty pictures, respected no boundary to my electronic privacy... and in so doing, someone found out about Tuesday, September 11th 2001 before it happened?

Because it is an insult, and unjust, to have some government spook peeking through my data- but right now the World Trade Center is destroyed by multiple coordinated suicide airliner crashes. And that actually happened- it wasn't some NSA spook making scare stories to improve their budget, it HAPPENED. Some of those NSA spooks are probably dead in the wreckage of the Pentagon. With all their Carnivore stuff, all their attempts (bitterly protested by slashdotters and others) to spy out signs of possible danger... they didn't spot THIS. And it couldn't have happened without extensive communications.

Now that we have proof that organisations (not even just countries!) can coordinate staggering attacks and damned near take out whole cities, do we tell the spooks to pack up their wiretaps and go home?

Re:what does this mean for our freedoms?

[imipak]

I think you're spot on: whether the motivations are benevolent or not, the TLAs and their associated law-passers are unlikely to miss the opportunity to ratchet the freedom of crypto down, and surveillance up. This, of course, is not inconsistent with the theory that they might be doing this for entirely good reasons...

One for the conspiracy theorists out there: the comparison I keep hearing is Pearl Harbour. Isn't there a sizable school of thought & some evidence that some portion of the US Govt in 1941 knew that something was going to happen, and deliberately held off doing anything (a) to avoid giving away that they had the intelligence, and (b) to allow the US to be sucked straight into the war they'd spent the previous 20 years trying NOT to get involved with?

Re:New perspective

[nagora]

You obviously have no idea how many more Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis this year that the other way 'round. I think the current ratio is about 10:1 (even after the suicide bombers). Of course, I suppose you think the various Palestinian office workers aren't as important as New York office workers?

A new perspective indeed.

Re:An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes bli

[Anonymous Coward]

If youre saying something out of the bible, you should have READ IT !

so in Luke 5:38 Jesus said:
5:38 "You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic, also give him your coat. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to the one who asks you, and do not reject the one who wants to borrow from you.

(http://www.bible.org/netbible/mat.htm#5)

Large scale retaliation isn't the answer

[WishesWereFishes]

This has been a sad day, and the half-cocked, gung ho reaction of most of the people out there, while understandable as an expression of their grief and outrage, is also completely the wrong way to go. Large scale retaliation will only make things worse. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating doing nothing. The people who committed this act should be tracked down i.e a serious investigation into which terrorist organisation is responsible. But it is likely that this involves only a relatively small amount of people. This is not an excuse for retaliation against an entire country - the argument that the country from where the terrorists originate( which might possibly be more than one) share the blame because they haven't done enough to stop the terrorists, is flawed. Firstly,most of the countries in question don't have the resources for adequate health, education or even military, let alone for internal manhunts of a terrorist organisation. Secondly, even if the country in question is antagonistic towards the united states, and so doesn't hunt down it's terrorists for political reasons - this shouldn't be interpreted as an action by that government, but as wilful negligence, - a crime but a lesser one - not worthy of warfare against an entire people!! So what should be done : 1)as I said, find the people responsible (and make damn sure you've got the right people) then take action - something directly against the people in question(I'm talkin' surgical). 2) Tighten security - how the hell does a plane manage to get within spitting distance of the Pentagon. I'm sure there are a lot of difficult practicalities, but this tragedy should be enough of spur to overcome them. So don't do anything until your blood pressures have lowered a bit - emotional murderous responses are understandable as an initial reaction but as the considered reaction of a civilised democratic government - NO WAY!

UK Foreign Office number

[MikeCamel]

For those in the UK (who may be unable to get through to the US), the UK Foreign office has issued a number: 020 7008 0000.

Re:Serious questions for anyone who's been in the

[tcc]

My questions are because I'm unwilling to think that 40,000 people in the building = 40,000 deaths. There was a good period of time between the first plane hitting and the second hitting, and then a period of time before the buildings collapsed. It is my hope that many survived and made it out.

Dude, do you know how much time it takes to evacuate a 120 store building???

Re:I hope...

[Winged Cat]

Good point. If I may toss out a theory...

Attacks make Americans willing to trade liberty for security. Laws get passed to take away liberty, but are lax on actually implementing security (real security is a lot more expensive than the illusion of security that, for instance, the NSA and CIA have been giving us). However, the take-away in liberty does allow (short term) profits to the currently-largest organizations, which might otherwise be threatened if just anyone could do an innocuous activity that could become a terrorist action. (Anything that can disrupt large organizations, no matter its other uses, is potentially useful to terrorists.) Some of the take-away will be labelled as "temporary", but will happen to remain on the books for a long time (maybe someone will point out that actual "temporary" laws have, at the least, sunset provisions). And, of course, media attention is diverted away from the SSSCA (and maybe other similar issues) just long enough for it to gain momentum.

It'd be totally ironic if it turns out the party responsible was a McVeigh wannabe trying to thwart the American government and the corporations that (in their opinion) bought it. Or if it was some faction that thought the lax, free American culture was threatening their rigidly-controlled police state - in which case, would not this extra security be the fastest way to cave in to their demands?

Re:Anyone seen th pictures of the paleo's celebrat

[JCMay]

I doubt that Anwar Sadat, the long-dead president of Egypt, expresses much of anything anymore.

Yassir Arafat, however, did say that he did not approve of the attack. Yeah, whatever.

Help through RedCross

[Utopia]

If you plan on helping
Visit American Red Cross at RedCross.org
Type your zip code to find your local Redcross chapter or call
1-800-GIVE-LIFE to make an appointment to donate blood.

Re:Thats the most stupid and dangerous idea today

[mesocyclone]

What works in war is to wage war. Anyone who feels that this attack is short of war is a fool. It is now time to stop the practice of government sponsored terrorism. Perhaps you can suggest how to do that without extreme means. Perhaps you will mail some flowers to the Taliban in hopes that they will see the world your way!

The US has tried many things to answer terrorism. It is time to give up on the judicial approach and use more effective assets and send a stronger message.

These attacks are supported by governments - even if they are not exactly in the line of planning (the Afghans, for example, have already demonstrated their knowledge of "plausable deniability). With the growing sophistication of terror devices, and the mounting death toll, the free nations of the world must treat sponsorship of terrorism as equivalent to acts of war.

The US probably lost more citizens in this attack than in the Pearl Harbor attack, and these citizens were civilians of a free and generous society. We will respond. We can only hope that those other free countries, such as France and Germany, which have been happy to trade with terrorist countries, will join us.

World Trade Center Pictures

[ga1adrie1]

Pictures of the World Trade Center

Taken from the New Jersey side at about 10 a.m., except the last one, which was taken about an hour later. What words cannot describe, I hope these pictures have captured.

Stop the Rhetoric

[Wretch1970]

Drawing parallels between terrorists and Hitler are inappropriate.

Hitler was the leader of a nation, therefore the nation of Germany was a legitmate target for military strikes.

There are some nations that sponsor terorist activities and those government should be targeted, but the terrorist organizations are self appointed, and not representatives of any specific nation or nationality.

Also quit the lets invade BS. That sort of rhetoric is easy when you're not the one on the ground with a weapon in your hand. I'm a soldier (infantry) and I will be. If my commanders order me to go I will, and I do believe we should retaliate, but when a 17 year old computer geek screams invade all he/she does is look like ignorant asshole.

9-11-2001 Internet domains

[Kent Brewster]

... are going like hotcakes. I checked Network Solutions this morning an hour or so after the first reports and you cannot get anything associated with 9112001, 9-11-2001, sep112001, 11sep2001, september11, sep11, 11sep, 20019091, or 2001-9-11.

One hopes these domains are going to people who have something to say about the event, and not just squatters or CNN.

WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING?

[remande]

The above and a slew of other posts assume that this is some form of Islamic attack, likely under Bin Laden. I have heard no evidence to this effect. One terrorist group was supposed to have claimed responsibility; my understanding is that this was a false report.

It could be Muslims. It could be Christians. It could be Athiests, (White|Black|Yellow|Red|Purple) supremacists, anarchists, fascists, disgruntled pilots, almost anybody. I am not blaming any of the above groups; I am demonstrating that we just don't know.

Here's what we do know. This was a group of people (at least four, one for each aircraft) rather than one person. Those who carried out the plan (rather than any possible planners we don't see yet) were willing to die for this. They were trained for this mission (highjacking an aircraft is not an easy job today, and the fact that we have heard of no failed hijacking attempts today implies that all attempts were successful; we didn't have four successes in sixteen attempts or whatever). This implies premeditation and weeks of planning. Note that this also implies that the act was not a Columbine-type killing. The rash of Columbine events in the past few years show a lot of premeditation, but not the level of skill needed to hijack an aircraft.

Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.

Let's not try to pin this on somebody until we get some more facts.

Re:WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING?

[passion]

Racial epithets will simply lead to further hate - on both sides (of the giver and receiver), and lead to further violence.

Re:WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING?

[Spunk]

remande makes an excellent point. I'd like to add one thing:

Who did we immediately suspect bombed the Oklahoma City building? Arab extremists. But no, it was an American!

We shouldn't retaliate until we get more facts on who did this. THEN kill the motherfuckers.

Re:WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING?

[smallpaul]

Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.

Of course it is too early to make any judgement. But it is not racist to think first of those who have been loudest in calling for the destruction of the United States (both recently and historically). None of your other "suspects" really make any historical or contextual sense. Atheist suicide bombers? Racists who kill people of all races indescriminately? Are we so politically correct that we must abandon logic?

Another reason to believe (not conclude, but believe) that it might be Islamic militants is that they have a tradition of organized suicide bombing that most other radical organizations do not.

I'm not saying it was Islamic militants but I don't think that I am a racist because that was the first thing that popped into my mind. They followed the MO of those groups, not the MO of domestic terrorists or European terrorists etc.

I just read this: "Three Palestinian groups -- Hamas, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Islamic Jihad -- deny responsibility for the attacks, but blame U.S. policies in the Mideast." I guess these guys are racist too...they also think it likely that it was someone from the Mideast.

Re:PENTAGON != COLLAPSED INTO A HOLE! Stay off pho

[Jeremi]

My NEW Sig: Nuke the fucking bastards NOW!

The worst thing about violence is that it causes people who were previously non-violent to become violent. Don't let the terrorists make you one of them!

On another note..

[SideshowBob]

I personally am mildly disgusted by some of the mainstream media coverage I've seen of the aftermath. I really hate when obnoxious camera crews stick cameras in the faces of obviously traumatized survivors and ask inane questions like 'were you scared?', 'did you see anyone die?', or 'does this make you angry?'

Sheesh, I wish the media would a) let these people have some dignity, and b) quit asking so many stupid Sally Jessy-esque questions.

Re:On another note..

[rw2]

I'm with you on the disgust. MSNBC is running a "Terror Timline" for fucks sake. (It's linked from poliglut if you're interested)

What also disgusts me is the idea that this is Pearl Harbor ][.

Want to talk about sequels, this is more like Hiroshima ][. A death toll of perhaps 50K dwarfs Pearl Harbor but is darn close to Hiroshima.

And there isn't a thing that Bush's Star Wars sequal would have done to save us.

Whodunit? Check the Black Boxes...

[StaticLimit]

It may not be too difficult to figure out how events played out. The cockpit voice records in each of these planes should be VERY telling as to how these planes were taken over, who was doing it, and potentially why! Suicidal terrorists need to bring attention to their agenda in order to advance that agenda. I would expect them to be at least somewhat talkative as they were going down, especially since the presence of cockpit voice recorders is quite well known.

- StaticLimit

"Fight Club" not so funny

[Sebastopol]

In "Fight Club", the plot to take out the skyscrapers seemed cool and funny. And at the end, it seemed carefree and rewarding that the monoliths of capitalism were toppling, I'm sure everyone felt good about that.

Now seeing people jumping out of windows in terror, thousands crushed burned and killed, a city closed, an infrastructure disabled, and world on high-alert, it doesn't seem so cool anymore.

I feel the full effect of desensitization in the movies, and I am disturbed that I can't find the right words to communicate with friends who are in the midst of this crisis. Where can compassion be found? I'm not blaming the media for anything, I'm just sharply aware of the before and after I'm feeling toward fightclub vs. the real thing.

Re:"Fight Club" not so funny

[patrick_jones]

The skyscrapers in fight club were empty, these were not. there is a big difference. fight club was not about killing people it was about killing the debt record. dont mix these two things up.

Re:"Fight Club" not so funny

[puck71]

The only people in the exploded buildings in "Fight Club" were Tyler's people - in other words, the people in on the plot (suicide bombing if you will). Don't even try to compare the two. 0 innocent lives lost compared to tens of thousands? That's not a comparison. I suggest you watch the movie again and get your facts straight.

Re:"Fight Club" not so funny

[vanza]

"Fight Club" is not nearly a good comparisson. Try watching "New York Under Siege" (I think this is the original name; I hate translations!). That one paints a much closer scenario to what we have seen today. And it's god damn scary (aside from the "in the end all is fine" ending).

Re:"Fight Club" not so funny

[jacobito]

It was also a twistedly conservative cry for masculinity. Note how men are emasculated by consumer culture and New Age-y therapy culture. Note how women and femininity (usually exaggerated and absurd: "bitch tits") in the movie are objects of fear, disdain, or ridicule. It was a solid and fascinating movie, but I wanted to point these aspects out, since people tend to fawn all over it.

Sorry for being off-topic.

No car bomb

[MattGWU]

Trust me...there was no car bomb at the State Department. When I heard that on whatever local news station I was watching at the time, I took a look out my window, and the State Department, one block diagonally from me, is still there. If a bomb went off at the State Department, I'd be the first to know.

Alternative info channel

[Ktistec Machine]

If you're without a radio or TV in your office, try #CNN_Newsfeed on chat.cnn.com. It shows the closed captions for what's currently on-screen on CNN.

Re:Alternative info channel

[ChaosDiscordSimple]

As Ktistec Machine points out, CNN runs an IRC server. It's working fine right now.The channel #CNN_Newsfeed contains the closed caption information from the live broadcast. It's a resonable fall back if you don't have access to television or radio.

If you've got an IRC client, connect to irc://chat.cnn.com:7000/. If you've got Java support in your web browser, connect to CNN's java interface. Once you've logged in and given it a nickname, type "/join #CNN_Newsfeed" in the box.

They expect retaliation. What have they prepared?

[captinpoo]

Any group that has planned this complicated terrorist attack in such a calculated fashion must be expecting a retaliation from the US, and ALOT of the other first world countries. What I am wondering is what they have planned for the aftermath. What are they going to do to the swift responce that is sure to follow.

The terrorist group that has organized this attack is probably the largest and most organized. But how big are they? they are by no means in size and sophistication as the US, and cannot fight face to face, but will have instead prepared an other extreme action.

The attacks today were prime targets for 2 reasons. Casualties, and media impact. This has severely shocked America and the rest of the world. What must be done in the future to produce such horrific results?

News from Internet Exchange in SoHo

[wbeckler]

I've been getting emails from a friend at Globix, the giant internet exchange in southern Manhattan. Here is the latest news:

Globix is located on Centre Street south of Canal Street. Businesses south of Canal have been asked to evacuate. The dust from the WTC collapse has forced buildings to shut down their air conditioning. Only a few large computer operations can operate without normal air conditioning, but major exchanges, like the AT&T telephone building and Globix, have backup cooling systems that should hopefully operate in these conditions.

Globix engineers are taking care of major service problems and trying to prevent potential major problems so they can leave as soon as possible.

Globix is hooked into the 3 largest backbones that pass through the region, and at least one must still be operating. Email messages originating from Globix are making their way out, but messages sent to Globix are not coming in.

A telephone call to (212-334-xxxx) from NJ (856-672-xxxx) got through, but no calls to the 718 area code are working. I just received a call from a 212 phone as well.

My friend at Globix was walking to a class at Sun Microsystems at the World Trade Center when the first plane hit. His view of the collision was obscured, and he was not injured. He commented:

> I ran down to the woolworth building and stood
> looking in shock at the North tower, the smoke
> billowing out of it and the thousands of papers
> fluttering down against the blue sky. Suddenly
> I saw something hurtling down the side of the
> building. It was a man, limbs, tie and suitcoat
> flailing. several more followed. I turned and
> slowly walked back towars the sunny, newly
> renovated park in front of city hall.
>
> I heard the second explosion hit, and people
> began screaming and running past me.
>
> As I sit here at my comfortable nest of a
> workspace, my skin crawls, and I feel sick to
> my stomach. I have read about events this bad
> or worse a hundred times in the novels my
> father derisively terms storybooks, but the
> reality is completely incomparable. Perhaps he
> had a point.
>

Another friend of mine was in the 70th floor of the second building to get hit, and he made it out alive. I don't yet have the details on that.

Transportation update (from a Brooklyn friend):
Subway lines are running off and on, and bridges and tunnels are closed to cars. The W line was still bringing people into Manhattan at 9:30, but that has ceased. The N/R is now running above 14th Street. Pedestrian traffic is allowed on the Brooklyn Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge. People in suits have been streaming over these bridges into Brooklyn all morning.

Historical Note:
Today, September 11, is the 28th anniversary of the CIA-led coup that overthrew the democratically elected government headed by Allende in Chile. Why is this relevant? I feel an immense amount of anger towards the people who caused this, and I think the people who caused this are the murderers sitting in Washington D.C. who direct U.S. foreign policy. They recklessly inspire anti-U.S. sentiment in every other country in this world. We ruthlessly bombed civilian targets in Yugoslavia (including water purification sites); we starve the children of Iraq; we blockade Cuba for no good reason; we topple democratically elected socialist governments in order to install pro-U.S. dictatorships. My anger does not direct itself solely towards the government officials who have perpetrated these crimes. I am furious at the millions of Americans who voted for George W. Bush. They are responsible for putting into power a person who is walking all over international agreements about global warming and arms control. And anybody who sits by and pays taxes and watches our imperialistic military and State Department do its dirty work has to take some responsibility for these murders. WAKE UP AMERICA: THIS IS YOUR FAULT. No missile defense shield will protect us from the hate that is justifiably spawned worldwide by our pro-corporate foreign policy.

Experience of an anarchist:
When the mail carrier knocked on my door this morning, I was worried that I was about to be taken in by the FBI. If you know what I've been through, you would not think this was a paranoid reaction. There will be a witchhunt following these events, and the U.S. government will probably use it as an excuse to harass activists. Right now the joint anti-terrorism task forces around the country spend most of their money tracking and harassing the anti-corporate activists who have been targeting world financial summits. A good chunk is also spent on the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, neither of which actually have any members; they are just slogans that autonomous cells apply to their acts of vandalism. Today's events show yet again that money spent on national security does not in fact serve national security, but rather serves the insidious ends of the people controlling this country. Expect there to be calls for more money to fund politically motivated witchhunts against the Left. Expect calls for outlawing consumer use of encryption.

Finally:
Eben Moglen, Columbia University Law Professor and general counsel of the FSF once said about the inevitable rise of encrypted communications:

I don't doubt that there will be downsides. You should accept the truth that harms will be caused, as harms are caused by free speech all the time. But don't let yourself be panicked about this. The world of the twenty-first century will be more free, and will continue to be, as the spooks often say, "a tough neighborhood." Indeed, some bombs will go off; there will be, in Stewart Baker's signature phrase, "some mangled, burnt bodies." You will notice that there are already. But fewer of them will be in Iraqi prisons; none of them will ever again be in a gulag or Lager maintained by a KGB or SS state with a tap on every telephone. And of that you should be very proud, because it is we who will have made it possible.

Re:News from Internet Exchange in SoHo

[thanq]

Hold on a moment, what is written in "Historical Note" sounds more like a page out of a terrorist manual under the "What it is about".

Let's look at it briefly and distinguish the dirty, blind propaganda and actual reality:

They recklessly inspire anti-U.S. sentiment in every other country in this world

It's not every country of the world. Only those that have dictatorships or socialist fundamental governments that spew out propaganda about how deprived Western society is and how good it is to be a slave with no wages no food and no human rights (Iraq, Somalia, Africa, Cambodia, so on...).

we blockade Cuba for no good reason

I don't think that anyone who knows history wouldn't argue this. We blocked Cuba in 60s in repsponse to Russians installing nuclear warheads aimed at the US on the island. Avoiding globar thermo-nuclear reason is a pretty damn good reason to me.

we starve the children of Iraq

WE? US starves children of Iraq? I am sorry but the reason why chidlren in Iraq are starving is because of the dictatorhip regime that rules that country and has a point in keeping people suffer without food and human rights in a country where you have to say you hate USA and love the great leader, otherwise your family disappears and you get a bullet in your head.

And anybody who sits by and pays taxes and watches our imperialistic military (...)

Excuse me, but I read words like that before from the mouths of people liek Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Khaddafi, and all other fundamental radicalist groups that are the ones who kill women and children, who chop people to death with machetes, who bomb schools, malls, cinemas.

Think about it, that's not a historical note, that's something that you try to put into small kids heads in Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Libya, so when they grow up they can kill thousands of INNOCENT people and feel right about it.

Re:News from Internet Exchange in SoHo

[ckedge]

I just want you to know that there are many more people out there, myself included, whose stomachs got sick when we saw our first documentary about what happened in Chile, and the fact that the CIA engineered it because they thought the democratically elected government was leaning "too far to the left". To think of all the people who died at the hands of the Military Junta that took over afterwards...

Three Step Process: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[cybrpnk]

The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.

Re:Three Step Process: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[swm]

Still interested in using that nuke?

I think he means the death toll from the attack on the WTC.

Re:Three Step Process: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[Syberghost]

No; we need to change the policies that cause the terrorists to be pissed off at us, so they'll go bother somebody else.

Let Israel fend for themselves, and not only will the terrorists leave us alone, but Israel will probably do a better job without our help.

To declare war on them merely legitimizes them as soldiers, and they are NOT soldiers; they are criminals, and the way you deal with criminals is to arrest them, try them, and stick them in little boxes for the rest of their lives, like the animals they are.

Re:Three Step Process: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[Metrol]

Let Israel fend for themselves, and not only will the terrorists leave us alone, but Israel will probably do a better job without our help.

Wouldn't that very thing acknowledge a victory for the terrorists? I'm not a big advocate of Israel, but by gosh now is the time more than ever to stand behind it. To not do so gives these cowards a victory they do not deserve.

Re:Three Step Process: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[Syberghost]

Wouldn't that very thing acknowledge a victory for the terrorists?

A minor one. But since the policy was wrong in the first place, and since it's costing thousands of American lives, sticking with it to make a political point is awfully cynical.

Exactly how many women and children are we willing to exchange for machismo?

Re:Three Step Process: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[Syberghost]

The way you deal with terrorist soldiers is catch them, pry their kneecaps off with screwdrivers, stab them repeatedly, then leave them to die like they deserve to.

Thereby becoming a less-free society, which is exactly their goal. When the police begin to violate the laws, and everybody has less freedom, the terrorists have won.

And in the process, you've made some new martyrs for their cause. Do you really think death frightens people who are willing to kamikaze the WTC? Irrelevancy frightens them. Dying of old age in prison frightens them. Being killed by infidels makes them happy.

Re:I hope...

[ackthpt]

For all the worry about Carnivore, we can see what handsome payoffs all the eyes and ears we know about and those we don't have done to prevent today.

Maybe more tapping, eavesdropping, sifting, etc. will be on the way. Maybe the missile defense plan will be reconsidered to beef up intelligence. Or maybe those who commit such heinous acts will see, by the way the US conducts itself in the aftermath, that terrorism is not an effective weapon.

Re:New perspective

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

I suppose you think the various Palestinian office workers aren't as important as New York office workers?

No. But on the other hand, I don't recall ever hearing of New York office workers celebrating in the streets when Palestinians were killed...

Call first, make appointment

[bgdarnel]

Red Cross offices (in the Raleigh NC area at least) are being overwhelmed by donors and are asking everyone to call and make an appointment rather than just dropping by.

-Ben

Speaking for Yourself

[virg_mattes]

> I for one cannnot wait for the reports of islamic
> people being beaten to death by americans.

You, sir, are the "fscking idiot". Comparing all Islamics to Shiite terrorists is very much like comparing all Christians to the Branch Davidians. Perhaps you should pick up a book or two before you begin tarring innocents with your far-too-wide brush.

> It could be time for us to stoop to their level and kill innocent people.

This is lunacy. Killing innocent people is worse than pointless. If they're innocent, they have no connection to the perpetrators, so (A) the perpetrators won't care if they die, and (B) the innocents' relatives become your enemies as well. Grow up.

> ...because despite our emotions, we as Americans
> still defer to reason (thankfully)...

Don't dare speak for me, fool. Your statement above demonstrates firmly that you don't defer to reason at all, instead blowing off impotent anger at people whose only connection to the crime is your deranged sense of community. You, who cannot get outside his own head and his own hate, are a demonstration of the very worst of egocentrism. Now go home, and tell your mother not to let you post again until you're an adult.

Virg

Live by force of arms or deal with world inequity

[Anonymous Coward]

Sparta was a greek city state which had 100 slaves for every Spartan citizen. As a result of the huge number of slaves, the Spartans had a very high standard of living (huge houses, every whim indulged). This high standard of living came at a high price. The Spartans lived under constant threat of rebellion from the resentful slaves. Every Spartan male was trained from birth to be a soldier and was expected to be ready for the call to arms at a moments notice. Not a very relaxing way of life. Civil liberties were very limited in Spartan society.

Many people are advocating a hardline military response to the terrorist attacks. Although this may be emotionally satisfying, it will only increase the likelyhood of future attacks. As long as 4/5ths of the worlds people live in 3rd world conditions and see their family lands being purchased on a whim by wealthy forigners who earn more in an hour than they do in a year, as long as people in Cuba, Columbia, Palistine, Iraq and many other areas of the world feel they are being persecuted for their way of life, then there will be a long line of frustrated would be terrorists waiting to hijack planes to fly into buildings.

It is possible to subjgate these people through force. This approach as been used many times in history. Unfortunately if you look at the history books, frightening people by punishing them through force of arms only works if you apply truly horrific punishments on a massive scale. Witness the death camps in WW2, or the killing fields of Cambodia. Another approach that works is a massive suspension of civil liberties through a secret police force like the KGB in the USSR, or the reign of terror in revolutionary France.

If the citizens of the US want to live in safety from terrorist attacks then they must make a choice: Either work toward spreading the worlds wealth more evenly and allowing people outside the US to practice their chosen government and religion as they choose, or live like the Spartans and reduce civil liberties, develop an intrusive and sophistocated monitoring system for suspicious behaviour and have a powerful military force able to deal with situations quickly and live with the ugliness of bullying your neibours until they are too frightened oppose you in any way.

Re:Serious questions for anyone who's been in the

[1g$man]

According to a witness interviewed on MSNBC, the people from the second building were NOT evacuated when the first building was hit. At that point, they had no idea what really was going on and assummed it was an accident.

Re:I hope...

[baptiste]

You go boy, time to start kicking some terrorist ass...

AMEN! You set off a bomb, kill a few people, maybe a couple hundred - you might get away without retaliation. You destroy the World Trade Center Towers, smash a plane into the Pentagon, and kill thousands of Americans - you've gone to war with the United States. Whoever you are, you may be pretty happy with yourself, but you can't imagine what an event like this will do to the American psyche, ESPECIALLY if it was an Arab sect that did this (and even if it wasn't - Palestinians dancing in the streets???). Support for a free Palestine? GONE. Somewhat restrained responses to things like the Saudi apt bombings, the USS Cole Bombing? GONE. Americans don't take attacks like this lightly. One guy with a truck bomb changed the way America viewed terrorism and safety. This event will have a much broader impact.

All I know is IF bin Laden did this AND the Taliban continue to turn a blind eye, I for one will happily press the launch button of an ICBM to level the whole freaking country. No pin point attack with minimal collatoral damage - you harbor a terrorist you ARE a terrorist. Yeah, yeah, nukes, fallout, sucks for neighbroing countries and I realize that but you have to realize that many Americans WILL have these inflamed feelings and they won't be thinking about 'innocents' Call us hypocrits, callous, whatever. But if President Bush (first time I've called him that!) wants to drop every freaking conventional bomb we have on a country that knowingly harbored the people that did this - amen. If it was an American group that did this - I'll pull the switch myself or behappy to load the rifles.

My only hope is perhaps this will show missle defense to be the joke it is and maybe we can apply the billions Bush wants to spend on it on other more important things like finding the bastards that did this and improving security where we can without living in a police state. Oh - and I for one am MORE than happy to take a few billion from Missle defense, Social Security, WHATEVER to rebuild the World Trade Center in ALL its glory - we will NOT be cowed.

Radar image of New York

[Braudo]

The National Weather Service put up this amazing picture. Is this for real?

(The link was spotted on BBSpot.com)

Re:Navy base near DC shut down

[jafac]

No this is war.

Historically, when a city has been conquered by forces in the past, the civilians are raped, butchered, their belongings taken, the buildings burned. Standard Operating Procedure until only VERY recently in human history.

Re:President's e-mail

[Jeffrey Baker]

Why isn't is president@us ?

Re:But it *doesn't* solve things

[Simon Brooke]

[disclaimer: I'm Scots, posting from Scotland]

The only difference was that Bomber Harris had access to a much greater array of weaponry than the terrorists who attacked today.

What's scary about this is that the perpetrators did not need access to a 'greater array of weaponry'. While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence, the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for. Who needs a suitcase bomb, when you've got domestic aircraft?

This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.

So what can a government do in response to this? It's easy (and depressing) to predict what Dubya will do - just what so many here are urging him to do. And it's easy to see exactly why it will be counter productive. If the US Government lauches its predictable 'massive strike' against the assumed perpetrators, there will inevitably be enough 'colateral damage' to radicalise a whole new population of people who don't yet hate the US that much. And they'll get together and launch more strikes like todays, because (if you are sufficiently organised, disciplined, ruthless and security conscious) strikes like todays are cheap to mount out of all proportion to the damage they cause.

The US cannot run. It cannot hide. It cannot - ever - protect itself against this sort of thing. It has thousands of miles of coastline, thousands of miles of borders, which it can never effectively monitor. Today shows that wannabe terrorists don't have to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.

For the US as for the rest of the democracies of the world, the only solution to this problem is not to be hated that much. And the only way to not be hated that much is to not act unreasonably. Which means - among other things - that the response to today's event must be strictly limited to individuals who are provably in the direct chain of command to today's event - and not thousands of civilians who just happen to live in the same town.

Nostradamus predictions of course....

[prototype]

Nostradamus was a philosopher from the 15th century who apparently predicted most of the world events through his writings. One such writing went something like this:

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654

True that some people have said the City of God is Mecca or something and the brothers represented some form of government however if you dice this apart you get:

Two brothers (the World Trade Center towers) torn apart (collapse) by Chaos, while the fortress endures (The White House? Pentagon?)...

I'm not a big believer in this sort of thing, but one of Nostradamus' quatrains seems to be very eerily shadowed in this verse which has yet to married with a historical event, until now.

While this is rather eerie let's keep our heads about us. People tend to treat these in such a way that they become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Much like music lyrics of rock songs. The more obscure the language or symbolism, the more ominous it seems and the more likely some wack-job will use it as his creed. Let's hope old Nostie is wrong this time.

Scary stuff.

liB

Re:Nostradamus predictions of course....

[nparr]

This is not real

Just do a search on google for this phrase. If I make say a thousand prophecies that are fairly abstract for example:

In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb

Well let us analyse this. For Example what does City of God mean? It could be Mecca, Medina, Rome, Jeruselum, Salt Lake City, or any holy city depending on your religion. What do I mean by thunder--a storm? War? EarthQuake? lots of stuff can be described by thunder. There are a lot of two brothers on this world (I think the Number runs among the Billions) and fortress edure's what--Besiegement, Famine, etc? What Great Leader? How will he succumb? To what?

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.ht m

WTC Contained...

[Collectonian]

...for those who may not know. Government agencies housed in the World Trade Center include the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, U.S. Animal Plant Health Inspection, Federal Maritime Commission, U.S. Customs Service, Internal Revenue Service, Customs Service, Treasury Department, Secret Service, and the ATF. Financial exchanges include the Coffee, Sugar and Cocoa Exchange and the New York Cotton Exchange. Businesses include Morgan Stanley, Hyundai Securities, Tokyo Securities, Charles Schwab, Yamaichi International America, Smith Barney Inc., Keefe Bruyette & Woods Inc., Cantor Fitzgerald Inc. and Dean Witter Reynolds Inc.

Re:Thats the most stupid and dangerous idea today

[Ripat]

Hmm... yes... sometimes war is what is required, like WWII. Sometimes one must make a stand and fight.

But one must also take into account what can be acieved with war. War with the only goal of venegance is pointless, it will certainly not stop more terrorist attacks in the future.

If there was a clear target, open war *might* have been a needed action.

Before it is known who carried out these attacks it's far to early to even consider war. It would lead to nothing more than enormously more destruction, on both sides.

A solution

[einhverfr]

First, I argue that it is fundamentally impossible to stop these sorts of attacks. We simply cannot handle all the highjacking possibilities.

However, that is not to say that we are helpless. I would propose the following policies:

1: Targeting those responsible will be necessary but will not really accomplish much if we are trying to kill people (remember, they are willing to die anyway). It is more impossible to target facilities, economic material, etc.

2: Any counterstrikes must be balanced with attacks that are much more meaningful in a real struggle against terrorism. We must, in addition to attacking terrorist organizations, attack the economic structures that allow them to be successful. This means that we have to sacrifice cheap oil and help OPEC nations economically develop and become more economically independent. We have to target the terrorists in their pocket-book. If this is not done, we are doomed to fighting a reactive war against an opponent which rises organically from the oil-rich areas of the world.

And the point?

[ConsumedByTV]

Perhaps you really think it could help to do this kind of crap but it really wont. How many terrorist groups would know that airports have this? Then they (assuming they arent headless cells) can send in someone that hasnt ever been arrrested, or even just someone that hasnt been in the country before. Or perhaps you want to have the software tell the police that some non white people are around (better go beat them down). You dont even know what group did this, stop thinking that group profiling or anything on the same note would help. This very well could have been an inside job, perhaps the pilots jumped out? Perhaps perhaps perhaps. The only thing that is a fact is that no one in the US government is going to say this was one person acting alone.

Re:And the point?

[osgeek]

Perhaps you really think it could help to do this kind of crap but it really wont.

Sez you, but it stands to reason that if our law enforcement agencies already stop X number of such attacks every year (where X > 0, which we already know that they do), then giving them more tools to do their jobs wills most likely stop some number greater than X such attacks.

Then they (assuming they arent headless cells) can send in someone that hasnt ever been arrrested

But we have operatives in some of those terrorist organizations, operatives who could in many cases get pictures of terrorist agents back to our own surveillance system. We don't need to sit around and let these guys be arrested before looking out for them.

stop thinking that group profiling or anything on the same note would help

Uh, straw man? Who said anything about group profiling?

Mourning

[AlpineR]

While I agree that we must soon carry on and be productive despite attempts to destroy our nation, closing schools and businesses today makes good sense. There could be tens of thousands of deaths from these attacks. That makes it quite probable that you or a coworker just lost a friend or relative. Even those who aren't effected directly are understandably upset and shocked. We need a time without school or work for reflection and mourning.

AlpineR

Re:Plea for peace - HELL NO!

[JabberWokky]

If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace.

Okay... I started to do a nice little logical essay on why this won't work, but let me put it very simply:

If you kill my family and say you'll do it again, I will fucking come down your chimney and tear out your black, twisted heart.

This was an act against my neighbors, my country. Thousands of people were killed... people who could have easily been my mother, father, sister or brother. Or me. And these people *were* mothers, fathers and siblings to people across the country. You wiped out two of our symbols of pride... the tallest buildings in our largest city. I stayed there for a week a few months ago, and I was proud of our human accomplishments - and you, in your narrow little mindset, slaughtered thousands of people - of whom, let's face it, only a few had ever even heard of your group.

Our battle flag has been a venemous rattlesnake with the motto emblazoned: "Don't Tread On Me". Left alone, the US falls into a sort of ambiguious philosophical debate... because we have the freedom to go in a hundred different directions. Polarize us, unite us in anger, attack and *KILL* *OUR* *CHILDREN* *AND* *PARENTS*, and YES... I think we have the right, and *will* eliminate you.

This was a military attack. The Pentagon, the center of our military coordination, was targeted. And that begs a military response.

--
Evan

respond ... but how ?

[beanerspace]

I'm curious. How do we now respond ? Do we ...

take out someone like Ben Ladin as an example, whether he's guilty or not ?

eye for an eye, 86 some of their planes ?

empty our prisons of our most dangerous criminals, arm them and air-drop them on the guilty ?

nuke someone ?

turn the other cheek ?

And what are the long-term reprecussions of how we resond ?

This is not Nostradamus

[NullGrey]

Ok, allow me to stamp this out before it goes much furter. This quote is from this page: http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm

As I posted in a similar thread on the earlier story, this is not from Nostradamus, but rather an attempt by the author of the site (who does NOT claim to be psychic) to show how, given a vague "prediction", that something in the future will fit it. Seems to have backfired, tho.

But, I suppose that some people would rather believe it is from Nostadamus, and feel 'eerie' about it, rather than facing the truth, and seeing that it is just a coincidence.

Interesting Pentagon tidbits

[krital]

I just wanted tos ay that I was at the Pentagon this morning, and that everything there seems to be like it's very well under control. There were a bunch of different people there watching the flames be put out - TV stations and such, as well as tourists and residents who, like me, wanted to see what the hell was going on.
Probably the most interesting thing that happened was talking to one of the officers who works at the Pentagon. She told me not to get any nearer (which I declined to listen to) and then said, I don't know if this was a joke or not, that I should try to stay alive so I could serve the country. God save us if we have to go to war!

DC is currently in a state of emergency, and almost all the streets are closed - it's pretty eerie. I walked by the state department, and the whole thing is shut down. There are cops and agents from every sort of government department everywhere - you literally can't go a block without seeing a handful sitting around or directing traffic or doing whatever they do. Washingtonians are being pretty calm, though, so there aren't any riots or looting or anything like that.

Just to give another view on the situation here in DC :)

another NYPD live stream

[Atilla]

http://www.live365.com/stations/206780

you're full of shit

[Ender Ryan]

"How the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki felt when the US used atomic bombs on their ready-to-surrender country just to prove that they worked."

Japan was not ready to surrender, they were willing to fight until they completely used up all their resources. Millions more people would likely have been killed in battle had we not dropped those bombs, Japanese and American. Don't forget who started that war either. Not only that, the day before we dropped the bombs, we alerted their civilian populations that they should evacuate those cities.
Yes, America is guilty of plenty of wrongdoings, but your type of anti-American bullshit rhetoric helps nothing.
And of all times to spout your bullshit, you do it after thousands of innocent people are killed by acts of terrorism.

http://www.nybloodcenter.org/

[Evro]

If you are in the NYC/Long Island area, here is a URL with locations to donate blood: http://www.nybloodcenter.org/blood_window.htm. Additionally, EMS is now saying you can donate blood at any hospital in the area.

I tried to give blood at 2500 Marcus (very near Long Island Jewish hospital) and I couldn't even get in the parking lot. I'll try again later or tomorrow. Please, if you are in the area, help out...

I feel so useless... giving blood is all I can do to help.

Here's the text of that URL in case it's down for whatever reason:

NEW YORK, NY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 - Due to this morning's hijack plane attacks on two World Trade Center buildings, resulting in unknown medical emergencies, New York Blood Center has announced a blood emergency for the greater New York/New Jersey metropolitan area.

Dr. Robert Jones, New York Blood Center President and Chief Executive Officer, is urging all eligible donors to make a blood donation at donor sites in Manhattan at 310 East 67th Street (between 1st and 2nd Avenues) and 150 Amsterdam Avenue (66-67th Streets); in Brooklyn at 120 Lawrence Street near MetroTech; on Staten Island at 1625 Forest Avenue; on Long Island at 2500 Marcus Avenue in Lake Success, 3125 Veterans Highway in Bohemia; 333 Merrick Road in Rockville Centre and Route 110N in Melville/Huntington; at 167 New Street in New Brunswick, New Jersey; and 525 Executive Blvd. in Elmsford in Westchester. For more details on available donor locations, call 1-800-933-2566. Hours at all sites have been extended until further notice.

Who Can Help?

Donors must be at least age 17**, weigh a minimum of 110 pounds and be in good general health. Photo or signature ID is required.

To find the nearest donation location call 1-800-933-2566 or refer to our blood drive locator.

*New York Blood Center regions include:
Brooklyn/Staten Island Blood Services
serving over 25 hospitals in Brooklyn & Staten Island
Hudson Valley Blood Services
serving over 50 hospitals in the Bronx and lower Hudson Valley
Long Island Blood Services
serving over 50 hospitals in Queens, Nassau & Suffolk
New Jersey Blood Services
serving over 65 hospitals in northern and central New Jersey
New York Blood Services
serving over 30 hospitals in Manhattan

**17-year-olds in New Jersey require parents' written permission to donate.

I was there

[Gingko]

I was in D.C. centre round about the time the plane hit the Pentagon. I'm a Brit, and flew out for two weeks holiday here to visit some friends yesterday. Getting out of D.C. was not easy - various subway stations were closed. For those of you who don't know D.C., the Mall area (where the Pentagon and Capitol are) is surrounded by government buildings. The streets were full of scared people, trying to play the odds on a macabre game of chance as they decided which buildings would be least likely to be hit. It was terrifying - everybody was certain another strike was coming. There were rumours flying around - a car bomb had hit the Capitol, another plane was incoming, all sorts. The roads became gridlocked very quickly. I got talking to a lady who was just standing around outside the agriculture department. Turns out her husband was in the Pentagon. We hitched a lift down to Crystal City - I owe the driver of that black van a beer. From there we picked up a couple of other ladies and got a meal in McDonalds. We went our separate ways, since some guy said he could get me to Tyson's Corner - which was near where I wanted to go. After half-an-hour stuck in traffic, not moving, I heard that some subway stations were open, and took my chances. I got lucky, and got home.

Many didn't.

I have never been so scared.

Re:I hope...

[jonathan_ingram]

Releasing the prisoners was a culmination of a process going back many many years (involving, among other things, Ireland re-writing its constitution to remove the claim on Northern Ireland).

Israel and Palestine have had 50 years to hate each other -- the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland have had about 300. You don't defuse a situation like that by bombing the hell out of one side (we know, Thatcher did her best).

Peace and reconciliation is, in the long run, the only way forward.

The biggest thing the American government can do now is say 'What have we done to these people? How have the affected their lives so badly that they will kill themselves just to hurt our civilians? How can *we* change *our* behaviour so that something like this never happens again.'

But they won't. They'll pick some small, badly defended country, and have a one-sided TV war so all the folks back home can sit back and see that Uncle Sam is *sorting them bastards out*. And the whole thing will start all over again.

Don't make the US into Zimbabwe. Make it into South Africa.

Re:Plea for peace - Huh? Get Real!

[IronChef]

He may have screwed up the Mecca thing but there is some truth to his words. The BBC recently ran a spot on the international news show about a school that trained Arab kids to be suicide bombers. They showed 12 year old kids drawing pictures of themselves with bombs strapped to them... the poor kids were being brainwashed into blowing themselves up. The school has since been shut down under international pressure, but it has probably just gone underground.

I realize that this is not typical of all Muslims, of course. Chilling nonetheless.

How bad do I need privacy?

[Hilary Rosen]

Worse than this.

If you want to read what I'm writing in my encrypted emails, go tell a judge and get a warrant. Easy enough. After all, I'm a foreign national known to have subversive opinions. Install a keyboard logger to uncover my thought crimes. For that's what conspiracies are. Up until the hijackers walked into the airport with their weapons, no real crime had been committed.

God forbid that we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion (Jefferson).

They've already won

[J'raxis]

Every airport, government office and school closed, stock market shut down (and rumors of it crashing), military patrolling the capital, office buildings evacuated, Bush and company all in hiding. They blow up three buildings and a few jets and we shut down the whole country.

If whoever did this wants to disrupt the nations infrastructure, I believe were already doing a good job of it for them.

Terrorism Vs. Guerilla Warfare

[remande]

I don't believe fighting back will work. History has proven that the big country can not fight guerilla warfare battles and succeed. One reason we won our fight against England 250 years ago is because WE were the terrorists.

We were not terrorists in the American Revolutionary War. We were guerillas.

Guerillas fight by performing sneak attacks on opposing military forces, by sniping and similar means. Guerillas are usually quite interested in saving their own hides, and avoid suicide attacks. By avoiding the standard massed musket tactics of the day and learning hide-and-shoot from the natives, we were able to inflict massive casualties on British military targets. The aim of guerilla warfare is the same as that of conventional warfare: to destroy your opponent's military assets until they are no longer able to make war with you, and must sue for peace.

Terrorists "fight" by performing secret operations to cause massive damage to civilian (and sometimes military) centers. The aim is not to damage military assets, but to produce political pressure by panicking the civilian base. Our representative government makes us a prime target for terrorism, since what affects the civilians affects our leadership. States where the government "hates" its own people (such as Iraq) are basically immune to terrorism; if you blow up a bunch of Iraqis, Hussein will just laugh. Passenger aircraft, shopping malls, sporting events, and large buildings are usual targets for terrorism.

The US has arguably engaged in terrorism. Our atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrorist in nature, but military rather than sneaky. IMHO, US economic sanctions are a "less violent" relative to a terrorist attack; see above for why we haven't overthrown Hussein by sanctioning Iraq, nor Castro by sanctioning Cuba.

This was an attack on the U.S. Economy

[JWhitlock]

I don't know if people are reading new posts or not, but here it goes...

This was not your "normal" terrorist attack. There were no demands, it was planned before the Israel elections, and it was coordinated. This was a terrorist attack on the U.S. and Western economy.

It was timed for the opening of the stock markets, while the markets in London were still open. It was timed for the LA commute. It was timed for when most people would be in the office, in the morning.

The use of planes insured that all planes would be grounded. No planes in the sky means business people do not travel, packages are not delivered, even the U.S. Mail is not delivered. It looks like other transportation services, such as Greyhound, are also shutting down.

The president wasn't really targeted, and government offices weren't targetted. The Pentagon was targeted. Was this to ensure a crisis way of thinking from the military folks? Already people are lining up for the gas pumps in my home town. If we make some sort of surgical strike against an Arab nation, then will the Arab states retaliate with an oil embargo?

This is hitting us where it hurts - in our struggling economy. Don't be fooled - the fact that Washington and New York are shut down fills the terrorists with as much joy as the fact that Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Dallas are all in a panic, vacating all the state offices and high office buildings. They are thrilled that every American is taking a day off work, and wondering what is happening to their 401K.

Don't let this terrorism hurt the economy. Keep your money where it is - you'll buy cheap stocks that will only go up in value. bin Laudin probably has his money in gold, which will go up in value and fund the next adventure. Try to lessen his speculative portfolio a bit.

Above all, keep doing your jobs, think about the freedoms you do have as an American, and, if you are in a position to help, do so.

Re:This was an attack on the U.S. Economy

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

Ironically, I'd predict that the end result will be beneficial to the US Economy. There's going to be a major investigation, obviously. That requires the purchase of a lot of goods and services. I'd be surprised if it didn't at some point involve a great deal of money going to defence contractors, ironically enough. It's almost funny that one of the primary beneficiaries, economically speaking, of this attack on US Economy and military are organizations that are sometimes reviled as being the worst of both...

Nice going, terrorist boogerheads.

Re:I hope...

[micdow]

Oi... so what are you saying? Let's just spray them all and hope we get the ones responsible?! What bothers me about this whole thing is the veiled hysteria being shown by people--both in the media and the population-at-large. At this point, I think the preventative measures have already been taken--the air force has been deployed and the monitoring air space. Planes already in mid-flight have been diverted to airports outside the US... AND Dick Cheney is now at the helm while Bush is off somewhere under protection. This is actually the one of the most lingering power of terrorism, isn't it?! The power to induce fear and see the "unseen" enemy everywhere. Don't play into it!

From CNN, What's confirmed

[BigGar']

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Terrorists struck the United States Tuesday morning in harrowing, widespread attacks that included at least three commercial jet crashes into significant buildings.

In the first attack, a plane hits the north tower of the World Trade Center in Manhattan shortly before 9 a.m., followed by another plane into the second tower about 20 minutes later. Both towers later collapse.

About an hour later, a plane crashes into the Pentagon, part of which later collapses.

American Airlines tells CNN that it lost two planes, both en route to Los Angeles: American Flight 11 from Boston with 81 passengers and 11 crew aboard is lost. This is believed, but not confirmed, to have been one of the planes that crashed into the trade center. ... American Flight 77, a Boeing 757 from Washington Dulles airport to Los Angeles with 58 passengers and six crew is unaccounted for. Witness says plane that hit Pentagon was an American Airlines Boeing 757.

United Airlines loses two planes: United Airlines Flight 93 airliner headed from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, crashes near Somerset, Pennsylvania -- police say initial reports indicate no survivors. ... United confirms the crash of Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles with 56 passengers and seven crew aboard. It's possible, but not confirmed, that this is the second plane that hit the World Trade Center.

FBI sources said all four planes that crashed had been hijacked.

The Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, the Justice Department, the Capitol, the CIA and all other government buildings in Washington are evacuated.

President Bush calls the crashes "a national tragedy." Later in the day, Bush issues a statement from Barksdale AFB near Shreveport, Louisiana. "Make no mistake: The United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts."

In the first-ever national ground stop of aircraft, all flights nationwide are stopped at their departure airports.

International flights are initially diverted to Canada; FAA says later, however, that 22 U.S.-bound international flights will be allowed to land.

Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, says in reaction to the terror attacks that "we want to tell the American children that Afghanistan feels your pain and we hope that the courts find justice."

In New York, more than 10,000 rescue personnel rush to the scene. Evacuation of lower Manhattan begins.

Israel evacuates all of its missions around the world.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta is evacuated. CDC prepares bioterrorism teams in case they become necessary.

Philadelphia landmarks are evacuated.

In Chicago, the Sears Tower is evacuated; United Nations in New York is evacuated.

Five battleships and two aircraft are deployed along the East Coast of the United States, and two aircraft carriers go to New York area, all from Norfolk, Virginia.

The New York Port Authority closes all bridges and tunnels into the city.

U.S. stock markets close after the New York attacks.

NATO sends home all non-essential personnel from its Brussels, Belgium, headquarters.

The Immigration and Naturalization Service puts the U.S. borders with Mexico and Canada on highest state of alert.

Los Angeles International Airport is evacuated.

Disney closes its parks in Orlando, Florida, and Disneyland in Anaheim, California.

FEMA implements plan established for such events: FBI leads investigation, and Justice Deptartment heads crisis management.

Three Palestinian groups -- Hamas, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Islamic Jihad -- deny responsibility for the attacks, but blame U.S. policies in the Mideast.

Mayor Anthony Williams of Washington, D.C., declares a state of emergency.

A Delta flight makes emergency landing in Cleveland and all passengers are safely evacuated. Federal officials search the plane for a possible bomb.

State Dept explosion cause unknown

[acroyear]

State Department Is Evacuated
WASHINGTON

The State Department was evacuated Tuesday due to a possible explosion or fire amid a rash of explosions in New York and Washington.

A senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the incident appeared connected with two plane crashes at the World Trade Center, an explosion at the Pentagon and the evacuation of the White House.

"Something has happened at the State Department," the source said. "We don't know what yet. We hear it might have been a plane."

source : http://www.wtop.com/

earlier they reported on the explosion, claiming it was a car bomb, but later rescinded that. other news sources continue to insist the state department was not touched (that the building is intact, regardless of any incident) including eyewitness accounts.

Re:A little late for peace...

[Znork]

Certainly think twice? Or what? The US will... kill them? Perhaps it escaped your notice, but some of these people actually flew planes right into buildings. They dont strike me as someone who will certainly think twice just because you threaten to kill them.

The US, or preferably the entire international community, because in my opinion this is an attack on humanity, will likely find any surviving responsible people and deal with those, and with all right.

But I dont think for a second that that will deter any further future attacks. They have very likely read the history books. They know the US will retaliate. They just dont care. At all.

Don't need face recognition to stop hijacking

[alienmole]

You don't need face recognition to stop hijacking. There are any number of technological measures that could be taken to make it much more difficult for terrorists to crash planes into buildings, without affecting the life of the average citizen other than making it more secure.

A kneejerk lockdown reaction which takes away freedoms from the citizens of the U.S. is the most direct way to serve the ends of the terrorists. The U.S. is one of the world's superpowers in large measure because it does not oppress its own citizens in the overt way that other nations have done (and in some cases, are still doing). That freedom is essential if the U.S. is to continue to thrive - in fact, it is the main thing that should be protected.

Re:better sources

[geekoid]

Good use for spam. The The goernment could "spam" everyone , kind of like an emergency braod cast system. Actually, just tell the major ISP's whats up and ask them to forward the news to there customers. Word of mouth would get the info out to everyone else.

Nostradamus

[RembrandtX]

My Nostradamus is very rusty from my freshmen theology classes 10 years ago but ...

Wasnt there some prediction about a great conflict involving world powers would be started by a man in a blue turban, who killed with fire in the sky ?

Here is how far the dust cloud extends

[Pig Hogger]

Here's a link to the NOAA website showing the radar image of the northeast US, showing the extent of the dust cloud.

Akamai CTO confirmed

[rschroeder]

From Boston.com

Akamai Technologies of Cambridge announced that Daniel C. Lewin, co-founder, chief technology officer, and board member of the company, died in the American Airlines Flight 11 crash in NYC today. Lewin, 31, is survived by his wife and two sons.

Re:Franklin D. Roosevelt's Pearl Harbor Speech

[CaptTrips]

Let's compare the difference:

PEARL HARBOR:

1. Japan attacked us and we knew for sure.

2. 3,581 were either killed, went missing, wounded, or those who died of their wounds.

3. The attack was on a Military base not on the U.S. soil directly.

TODAY:

1. We don't know exactly who did it. I have my feelings it was Osama bin Laden based a warning he gave the U.S. in which we would receive an "unprecidented" attack.

2. I'm estimating around 53894 people died today. Breaking down the number:

• at least 50,000 in total from the WTC buildings
  
• 194 confirmed totals on both airliners that hit the WTC
  
• estimating 1000 from major injuries suffered from debree from the collapsing towers
  
• estimating 2500 from the section of the Pentagon taken out
  
• 50 from the plane that hit the Pentagon
  
• 150 from the plane that hit outside Pittsburgh, PA
  

3. The attack was on a Civilian, Government and Military buildings ON the U.S. soil directly.

Loss of Life and Perspective

[virg_mattes]

> This is an act of war against the United States.

No, it's not. It's an act of terrorism. There's an enormous difference, a lesson that Vietnam taught us, and that you've apparently forgotten.

> Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers.

This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.

> If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth,
> and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then
> they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with
> appropriately.

What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are? What would be an appropriate response to that? Invasion? Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan? Do you really think that this incident warrants a war against Iran and Iraq? How about Russia? How about China? Both world wars started over annexations of territory, and in both wars nations with no initial stake were eventually pulled in (like the U.S. in WWI, which we entered because of our alliance with Britain and France). The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.

> There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions
> against the United States will be met with such an incredible and
> unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane,
> or otherwise would even conceive of the idea.

Get your temper back in check and read that again. Sane people don't use terrorism, and fanaticals and the insane don't care about consequences. So, our "horrific response" will only serve to turn the collateral damage victims into more enemies.

> It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen
> using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive
> and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die
> along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.

It is almost astonishing that your comment reflects very closely the words used by Timothy McVeigh in describing his destruction of the Murrah building. But then, it's not that astonishing after all, in that you're advocating the same sort of terrorism as he was ("if the (fill-in-the-blank) government is going to protect people who commit crimes against the (fill-in-the-blank) people, then I'm justified in killing them and anyone else who happens to get in the way, and I'll call them "unfortunate casualties of war" because it soothes my sense of justice and makes my position less abhorrent").

Until you (and many more like you) realize that fighting terrorism isn't just about brute force, we as a nation are destined to suffer from more of these attacks. Fighting terrorism is a high art form, and it can be done with a high degree of success, but it's never perfect, and it's never about simple military might. Read more about counter-terrorism, and you'll be surprised (and educated) by what you find.

Virg

Re:Loss of Life and Perspective

[Wavicle]

Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can.

Yeah, whatever. Clearly an organization that can simultaneously hijack 4 aircraft has no infrastructure, financial backing, or central leadership. Uh huh. Let's stick to the point... *this* terrorist organization was *very* well organized. And bombing it into oblivion, and sending a very clear and violent message to any government in support of the organization would be an effective deterrent. You don't see Libya downing too many planes anymore, now do you?

What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are?

Let's cut the pointless rhetoric. Either A) They are harboring him, or B) They are lying about it. I believe the intelligence community and the Taliban are telling the truth when they say Bin Laden is in Afghanistan. What did the Taliban spokesman say in their press conference today? It couldn't have been Bin Laden because it was too well organized? That's a lot different than saying "he isn't here".

Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan?

What I think is that Afghanistan has lost any sympathy it had with those countries. Are you trying in the slightest way to imply that the Russians are buddies with Afghanistan?!

The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.

blah blah blah... And who, might I ask, would be our enemies in a war over this who would have the tactical capability to deliver a weapon of mass destruction onto our soil? You aren't still saying that the Russians so love Afghanistan that they would enter such a conflict, are you? I don't think the Chinese, who are getting extraordinary benefit from the U.S. economy, are going to be real sympathetic to a country harboring someone suspected of an attack that could seriously curtail american imports of Chinese manufactured goods.

If Osama Bin Laden is the one responsible for these attacks, and he has been harbored by the Taliban, then I don't think those countries we would be concerned about are going to shed too many tears if we declare war on Afghanistan and remove the incumbent leadership.

Re:Loss of Life and Perspective

[Wavicle]

I'll ignore for the moment the fact that you are clueless as to what a weapon of mass destruction is and how many orders of magnitude more destructive than a jumbo jet it is.

Make peace. Or you might be dead next.

What kind of clueless idiot are you? Palestinians are dancing in the street upon hearing the news. Why? Because we aren't doing anything to Israel for Israel's actions. They see us as their enemy.

"Make peace" indeed. Make peace with whom? Which side? Inaction angers one side, action will definitely anger one side. Where is your middle ground? If you have all the answers, perhaps you should get a post at the U.N..

Re:Plea for peace - Huh? Get Real!

[jonathan_ingram]

You're dealing, most likely, with Arab terrorists.

Damn right - just like Oklahoma, yes?

I'm more sorry than I can express about the loss of life in your country. I wish there were some way I could help the families and friends of the people who died.

I know what *won't* help: a war.

It must be terribly hard for you to realise, given that you've probably never been out your country, but Syrians and Afghani are *just as human as you*. One American isn't worth *more* in some sense than a non-American, despite what you might think.

You know how to stop hatred? Build prosperity. Pick the countries that you think may have caused this, and make them happy, so they never need to resort to something like this again. Suicide missions aren't something that you do lightly -- there is years of hatred and tension that America needs to *defuse*.

And yes, I said the same about Britain when the IRA were killing people in my country.

Inadequate fire protection systems

[Animats]

The World Trade Center was structurally strong enough to survive being hit by a large aircraft. And it did; the towers were not knocked down. But it had an inadequate fire protection system, and the fire softened the structural steel, causing building collapse.

The World Trade Center had inadequate protection systems in the 1993 bombing; the truck bomb in the parking garage knocked out emergency power and the fire pumps. Last time, they didn't even have battery backup on the emergency lighting. The FEMA study of the bombing and fire indicates only minor upgrades were made to fire protection systems; better emergency lighting and such. No improvements to sprinklers or new fire barriers were made, other than improving backup power to the fire pumps. Most of the improvements were to communications and control.

This was much worse than it should have been.

Re:Inadequate fire protection systems

[F.Prefect]

Perhaps the fire-supression system was inadequate in many respects. That said, how can you seriously blame the scale of this catastrophe on the fire-supression system? Who in their right mind would equip an office building with a fire-suppression system that could extinguish a fire caused by enough jet fuel to take a 767 across the continent?! I think that even if it were up to a higher standard, it would have been absurd for the designing engineers to say, "hey, let's put in a sprinkler system that could extinguish a fire caused by a 767 slamming into the building with a near-full load of fuel!"

Re:Inadequate fire protection systems

[zhensel]

OK, elementary physics for you - a lesson in torque. When a multi-hundred ton plane crashes at 400 miles an hour into the top of a hundred story building, that's a lot of force. It's nothing compared to the force on the foundation - the foundation was fubared the moment the planet hit. It was a matter of time before it fell, the gradual destruction of the top portion and the massive whole didn't help anyone either. I'm watching the second impact on TV right now, and the thing flew all the way through the building. No building in a non-earthquake prone area is built to survive anything even close to resembling this. It could've been flooded with water and the result would be the same.

Re:Inadequate fire protection systems

[bridgette]

Who in their right mind would equip an office building with a fire-suppression system that could extinguish a fire caused by enough jet fuel to take a 767 across the continent?!

Apparently, the structural engineer that worked on the WTC would, he's quoted as saying I designed it for a 707 to smash into it.

http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0 10 911kamin-towers.story

Video links that haven't been /.'d

[ncc74656]

The local paper has some links in their copy of an AP story on this incident. HTH, and whoever's responsible ought to consider that his days are numbered.

Tragical and sobering

[Toshio]

My position
I will write this in first person, as the thoughts and opinions here are expressed as mine only. When I say "you", I mean you personally, when I say USA, I mean the country as it exists in legal term. I strongly differentiate between the country that you live in and you personaly.

What do I see
I don't know who commited this crime, but I don't see them completely unprovoked. The choice of the day itself (international peace day) hints, that it might not be immediately connected to recent events on UN racism conference, but rather something that can be shown as direct result of USA policy of involving in every regional conflict in last decade. Playing the role of world police and trying to establish new world order isn't something that will go down lightly with vast majority of world population. Even if this resolves to be act of internal terrorism (like OC bombing was) it means that USA is growing more and more extremist by the day. Could you imagine something like this happening in the land of truly free?

What I think about it
For the most of the world I would say that it has it's feelings mixed. I, for one, am fed over my head with all of your freedom exports as of lately and think this might be clear signal that USA is trying to do what no country is (or ever should) be allowed to do. On the other hand I do not condone this way of acting in any way justifiable. World policing is something that UN was designed to do and internal freedoms and rights are something that USA seems to be failing in, but this kind of response is never justified.

What do I mean with mixed feelings
For one, I cheer, that civilians in USA are meeting the horror and uncertainty of war. UN general secretary Gali once said for Sarajevo, there's 13 places in the world were the have it worse. This time the civilians in USA for the first time in their history get the chance to experience the fact that there is no other place on Earth where it's worse. They are targeted to change the politics of their country. They are simply used as tools to achieve the goal. And at the end of the day, they are the only ones that could change the policy of the country as a whole. But before you cry that this is wrong and this will only achieve opposite effects, let me assure you, that you are right. This way of acting will never achieve the desired result unless the enemy is overhelmingly stronger. This time the enemy has showed it has weapon of FUD readily available and is capable of using it. Do you really think that you country (assuming your from the USA) really did something else when decided to bomb Yugoslavia? Can you honestly say you didn't target your war aginst civil population in order to destabilize the government? Can you really claim that power plants, car production lines, television station offices, bridges, and other things you managed to destroy or disable aren't civilian targets? In what way does USA justification of the way that it handled that war differ from justification that someone (be it international or internal) will use in its defence?

Since I'm so smart, what do you want us to do?
Can you honestly expect that harsh retaliation (while the bodies are still warm) will solve anything expect serve to prolong the conflict? If that someone will be taken to court, then things will have to be proven; exhibits A and B will be presented; judgement will be passed and sentence will be executed. This is the way things are done. This is the way that equality works. When taken to international stage, USA will probably act as sole judge, jury and executioner. What makes you think, that it morally can. If some country just did this and you're saying it's wrong, what makes you right? Rule of the mob?

And what would I do?
If I would be you (but I'm obviously not), I wouldn't be thinking about revenge (revenge for what exactly?), but I would rather be thinking abut helping those in need. I would be thinking about saying a pray for those dead. I would be thinking about correct course of action after taking care of this. If I would be president of USA, I wouldn't be talking about hunting down the enemy, I would be talking about helping those in need, I would be talking about rebuilding and healing. If I would have the power he has, I wouldn't want to help the thirst for blood, I would want to bring out the good in all the people. Only after that I would be looking to bring justice to whoever did this. Bring justice, not hunt down mind you. Headhunts and public lynch never helped anyone, but correctly executing the justice deterred other from getting help in commiting crimes.

And your point is?
Don't walk around, saying how good/bad this thing is, but the next time elections are around go to the voting booth and tell the country how do you want it to run the business. This will actualy mean that you will alter your behaviour based on some terrorist action, but think about the alternatives. Do you want to live in real FUD state (as in state of mind) or do you want to influence the politics to minimize the chances of this occuring again. The answer is yours. But bottom line is whether you would rather use this as an excuse to do something abou your whole society, or use this as the point of justifying more violence.

Don't go down the spiral of violence. Don't retaliate. Don't assume.
Act with thought. Seek international involvement. Check and present all the facts. Take the road of justice.

If you want to know why I put this in bold, it simply because USA haven't shown much it lately. Sometimes the biggest bully on the block just needs to take the cold shower and admit that fists don't solve everything.

Re:War

[EnderWiggnz]

dude...

on behalf of all americans

shut the fuck up.

Re:I hope...

[Svartalf]

Sadly, your wishes are sadly naive, based off of flawed thinking.

"Israel and Palestine have had 50 years to hate each other -- the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland have had about 300. You don't defuse a situation like that by bombing the hell out of one side (we know, Thatcher did her best)."


The peoples of Israel and Palestine have had centuries of time to hate each other. This is a conflict that has been well over 2000 years in progress. Because we support Israel, many over there transfer the same conflict to us. Perhaps you might read the Holy Bible sometime- it documents the source of the conflict in detail and shows why it's not likely to ever go away as long as we're on this Earth.

"Peace and reconciliation is, in the long run, the only way forward."

Nice sentiment. Unfortunately, they don't believe that peace will win them anything- in fact, many believe that dying while killing infidels will buy their way into Heaven. You can't have peace with these people. You can't have reconcilliation with them. They don't reason. They don't ask for any quarter. The crash, a suicide attack on the WTC and Pentagon, should tell you just how wrong you are in this regard.

"The biggest thing the American government can do now is say 'What have we done to these people? How have the affected their lives so badly that they will kill themselves just to hurt our civilians? How can *we* change *our* behaviour so that something like this never happens again.' "

Funny thing is, we've really done nothing to them other than befriend Israel. Having done so, we've involved ourselves with a blood feud that is centuries old. Once you realize that there's nothing we can do except utterly condemn Israel and help bomb the Israelites into oblivion that would appease them, then you come to the conclusion there's no middle ground for us to have to come to a peaceful resolve of this.

Biggest thing we can do is to ensure that they don't repeat this incident- ever. If that means bombing some "poorly defended" country that is financing/training them- so be it.

Jet Fighters and Helicopters

[beanerspace]

Just to add to your observations. I live here in a nearby burb, inbetween all three major DC aiports and in direct flight line to Camp David.

Which may explain the occasional jet fighter and helicopter that buzzes overhead.

Re:Palestinians celebrate

[JWhitlock]

Take a look at the pictures on the Jerusalem Post [jpost.com] site:

"Reports are indicating residents of eastern Jerusalem, the West Bank, and southern Lebanon are celebrating the mass terror attacks in the United States at this time".

"Dozens of Palestinian youths have taken to the streets and are distributing candies on a main thoroughfare passing through eastern Jerusalem".

For one, I won't believe it until I hear the BBC or another independant source confirm it - I don't trust anything either side says in that area.

Second - why not? For months, Isreal has been giving the Palestinians hell, and Palestine has asked the U.S. for support. The U.S. has said that Israli/Palestinian affairs are not high priority for them. Maybe now it will be.

However, I don't think that was their intent. Personally, the historical date, the anniversary of the Camp David accord, is significant - we are now back to where we were with Carter in the 1970's, or perhaps even before that. I seriously hope that GW is up to the task.

Re:Peace ?

[Dancin_Santa]

You make the mistake of assuming that people such as these terrorists are willing to come to the negotiation table. They are not.

The fact that they have reached a point that hijacking planes and crashing them into highly-populated office buildings seems like a good idea. Do you think they have any common ground with their targets? Do you think their greivances are so large that this kind of action can be justified?

Dancin Santa

About Disaster Requests regarding Blood Donation

[Daniel Joannidi]

For those in Austin, TX please note the following:
Those in other cities of the US should also keep this in mind

September 11, 2001

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: Nicolette Abernathy, 512-206-1125; Leslie Searcey, 512-206-1120; or Dolly Mogonye, 512-206-1265

DISASTER REQUESTS REGARDING BLOOD DONATION

Austin, TX - The Blood and Tissue Center has been in communication all morning with the National Blood Exchange and the New York Blood Center. The National Blood Exchange is coordinating the efforts of all blood centers across the country and the tremendous outpouring of people wanting to donate blood. They are working with people at the two disaster sites to determine what blood products are needed and how many. They are also coordinating the transportation of the blood products to the disaster sites or nearby facilities that will be handling victims. As of right now, they have asked that people do not YET organize blood drives until the needs for blood have been determined - they do not want to have to waste blood products.
Currently at the Blood and Tissue Center, there have been so many people who have come to donate that there is at least a three-hour wait. The Center has pulled every available staff member into the Center at 4300 North Lamar Blvd to help process donors as quickly and efficiently as we can. In light of the requests from the New York Blood Center and the National Blood Exchange, we ask people to come donate blood later this week. Given the magnitude of these disasters, blood is going to be critically needed tomorrow, next week and beyond.
The Center will continue to update the community as developments occur. If you have questions regarding blood donation, please call the Center at 512-206-1266.

The Blood and Tissue Center of Central Texas
4300 N. Lamar Boulevard

Austin, TX 78756
Mon-Fri 8:00am-6:00pm

Sat 8:00am- 2:00pm

(512) 206-1266 Fax: (512) 458-3859
For more information, contact us at bloodandtissue@tcms.com

©1996-2001 The Blood and Tissue Center of Central Texas
Updated September 11, 2001. Online since February, 1999.

Americanization

[subgeek]

I have been reading through the comments on this subject. I do not claim to have read them all.

It seems that many people, especially those outside the US, are susggesting that this attack was some sort of retaliation for crimes the US commits against the world. I am American. I am not always proud of everything the US does. It is stupidity to say that any country had this coming.

Comments about America inflicting itself can only be taken seriously to a point. Yes, many American companies are "invading" other countries. But the people there buy it. No one is forced to buy food at McDonalds or drink Coca-Cola. The same thing happens in the US. Businesses I previously patroned are dissappearing and being replaced by things like Starbucks and Blockbuster. I say the same thing applies here as anywhere else. If you don't like a business, don't give it your money. If you don't like Hollywood being "imposed" on your country, don't see any Hollywood films. Encourage others to do the same. In the end, the people get what they want. If they want Americanization, it will certainly find them. It is easier to blame America than it is to blame the people who let our evil nation "invade" yours.

I would also like to point out that every world power has been viewed negatively by the less powerfull. Before America it was the European Powers. It is always easy to tell America what to do when you only have to consider the consequences outside of America. If you are not American, you will not understand how the consequences will affect us.

Akamai issues press release

[Scooby Snacks]

Yahoo news is carrying a press release that confirms that one of their founders is dead.

Early estimates of 10,000 dead.

[Kibo]

On CNN, Guliani, at a press conference, said that people around him had guessed about 10,000 people have lost their lives. He stressed that this was just a guess.

Re:visit a mosque

[beanerspace]

You make a very good point. Talk to someone Islamic. I am not Islamic, but a rather identify with the type of 'Reformed' Christianity espoused as websites like Antithesis.com and the Credenda Agenda.

That said, I know enough to know that it is ONLY the most radical and a minority of Islamics who preach violence. Most, if not all, condemn such CSCB terrorist acts. It would be victory for the chicken-shit-coward-bastard (CSCB)-terrorists if they could take these sad events and make us hate our Islamic neihbor.

While we may disagree about God and country, I would prefer to debate our differences over some cold beer and hummus, as opposed to hot lead and fire.

Insurance Concerns

[UserChrisCanter4]

Okay, So it's probably safe to assume that a good amount of people in the WTC towers were wealthy investment banker-ish types. Many of these guys were probably the only source of income their families had (since they would probably make enough that their wives didn't have to work). They probably had 1 million+ dollar houses mortgaged, nice cars, etc. So it would probably be safe to assume that their life insurance policies were for several million dollars. Of course, we can't discount that there were also plenty of secretaries/sys admins/janitorial staff/deli proprietors etc. in thee towers as well. Most of them also probably had life insurance policies.

And of course we have the World Trade Center towers themselves, who are probably insured for billions.

Well, watching CNN and various other news channels, I keep seeing that many politicians and journalists are calling this "an act of war"

Folks, what is the one thing that almost no life or property insurance policies cover? You guessed it: WAR!

We're going to have possibly tens of thousands of families who depended upon a primary wage-earner to survive. These families could potentially be told by insurance companies, "Sorry, but we don't have to provide coverage for your loved ones. It was war...".

Additionally, we will have whatever group of investors counts on rental income from the WTC go completely to pot, because their property insurance on the buildings will echo the same sentiment.

As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an act of war, it's an act of terrorism. The "war" clause in insurance policies is there as a last resort... it's meant to protect the insurance companies if half the major cities in the US get nuked to the ground. But I have no doubt that many of these companies will try to use this clause to their advantage.

I'm going to be sending a letter to my Senators and Representatives in a few days (obviously they have more important things on their minds right now) urging them to pass a temporary law that prevents insurance companies from pulling these sorts of sh> igans. I urge everyone else to do the same.

Re:Insurance Concerns

[bad-badtz-maru]

Most of the commercial insurance policies in the US do in fact cover terrorism and shares of insurance and reinsurance carriers are already suffering today. The World Trade Center is insured for 1.5 billion. Swiss Re and Munich Re probably have the most exposure in this incident. As of this morning, Swiss Re shares are down more than 17% and Munich Re shares had fallen more than 15%. Lloyds of London also has exposure, most likely through the aircraft. This is not good for Lloyds, who is just getting back on its feet after liabilities from asbestos, Exxon Valdez, and some big storms in 1989

maru
www.mp3.com/pixal

New Rules: Buy a plane ticket? Bring your gun.

[emil]

You should be required to pack a gun to fly on a commercial airliner.

I'm tired of worrying about feeling helpless while some maniac mows down the passengers and points the plane at a skyscraper.

If everyone packs a gun, and the airlines fly at an altitude where depressurization is not catastrophic, this problem is solved.

Bin Laden associate sentencing

[TheSHAD0W]

Tomorrow one of Bin Laden's associates was scheduled to be sentenced, in a courthouse right across from the WTC.

Stand Behind the President

[ColGraff]

I know we've all said snide things about the President in the past - myself included - , but the time for that is over. As another poster already mentioned, we are either at war, or so close as to make no difference. And in wartime, we stand behind our leaders and trust them - any other way leads to chaos. President Bush is pissed as hell, and he will get the nation the vengeance it needs. What we need to do is support him.

Recollections, Terrorism and Retribution

[Ronin Developer]

Like many of you, I watched todays unfolding events with horror, disbelief, anger and sadness. And, there will be those who are jumping up and down in jubilation that the Great Satan has been hit.

But, let's look at this for what it is, pure cowardise designed to strike terror in the hearts of people who have done no harm to anyone. The dead and wounded are people who were going to work, visiting relatives, or going home. They are people, much like those who have experienced terror at the hands of fanatics simply for living in a land whose government the fanatics deplore. There is no rational for the killing of innocent people. Anyone who thinks otherwise are clearly not of sound mind or thinking in a manner that western civilization can not comprehend.

The United States takes a lot of blame for some of the stances it takes on many issues. The same United States provided food, shelter, medicine and other humanitarian assistance to many nations that are incapable of doing so themselves during a disaster or national emergency. The United States provides assistance to nations who fall prey to aggression from outside nations such as the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq or the killing of the Kurds by Iraq. They do so because of treaties, agreements, national interest or purely on moral grounds.

Where would these people be if the United States and other nations stood idly by and did absolutely nothing? What would happen if the United States simple turned a blind eye to the plights of millions because of a few ignorant or fanatical people?

I do not know who is responsible for this attrocity. And, I strongly feel that once the identity of the those response are discovered, that no expense be spared until they are either brought to justice of meet their maker. But, I also implore that we don't take to the streets and exact revenge on anyone simple because of their heritage. We need to rise above the feelings of anger and hate.

Let's find out who is truly responsible for this attack and then make it clear, by our very strong actions, that terrorism will not be tolerated. Let those governments and individuals that support terrorism know that we have had enough and we will exercise our might to erratic them at all costs.

But, for now, let's pray for those who perished and their families. Tomorrow, we fight back against those that did this to us. Then, it will be time to grieve and remember so that this does not happen again.

Re:Recollections, Terrorism and Retribution

[Ronin Developer]

Okay...let's set the record straight.

Yes, we saved the Kuwaiti primarily because of their oil. We have a treaty with them...and it is in our national interest to do so. The rest of the world thought it important as well. Our world revolves around oil and it is our obligation to protect those that provide it to us. At the time of Desert Storm, Iraq's military was 3rd strongest in the world. While he built up his military machine, his people lived in huts, had unpaved roads, and limited medical access. He, on the other hand, lived in palacial, well..palaces...something like fourteen of them if I recall correctly.

The Kurds...As a naval officer, I can speak first hand, my ship was one of the first on the scene to provide relief to them during Operation Provide Comfort after immediately following Desert Storm. The rest of the world eventually turned their backs on them, not us. International sentiment turned against them and it is now not in their best interests to provide help to them.

We and the Brits are the only ones trying to keep them alive through the enforcement of the northern and southern no-fly zones. If Saddam is not contained, he will kill the kurds as well as the marsh arabs in the South.

As for the sanctions...well, the Iraqi people are partly to blame. The rest belongs to Clintonian era politics, budget cuts and decreased military spending. But, if they are so bad off, then why don't THEY remove the gov't that has put them in their current situation? Think about it. Bottom line is they WANT to believe in their leader and WANT to believe he is infallable. It's easy to believe everybody else is the bad guy when, if you speak out against Saddam, they kill you and/or your family. Yes, their economic condition has not improved. And, Saddam is rebuilding the military and his palaces. Whose to blame here?

The only reason we didn't knock him off or remove him from power ourselves is that:
1) It's illegal for us to assassinate him.
2) International sentiment dictated that we not finish the job.
3) Our former Whitehouse administration was unwilling to finish the job that international politics prevented Bush from finishing. They then cut military spending, reduced the size of our military, and deployed what forces we did have in a manner that prevented the military from doing their job effectively.

For someone who is supposed to be so bright (I read your resume), you are showing your lack of knowledge regarding real world historical events. What kind of crap did the profs feed you in college? As a recent grad, you are idealistic. That's not necesarily a bad thing, but won't get you very far in the real world. I suggest you read history books written by historians and not fiction authors.

You are young and have never had to fight for the freedoms you enjoy. You have never had to put you life on the line so that others, such as yourself, can think openly and disagree with the gov't. Guess what? You may be called to do just that in the very near future. I wish you luck.
I'm probably too old now to be recalled into service.

Re:redcross.org inaccessible

[remande]

For Red Cross centers in your area, see Big Yellow or your local phone book.

World Trade Center Victims

[alexburke]

Our sympathies to the relatives of the victims of the World Trade Center collapse.

Now do the right thing, Mr. Bush -- if Osama bin Laden was behind this, find him and his henchmen and blow them into the next dimension.

Re:Video

[Rackemup]

I should've known that link wouldn't work... posting a video clip from geocities would get the account shut down pretty damn fast. The bandwidth transfer limit is pretty low.

Structural design flaws or ...

[Telecommando]

Structural design flaws or additional explosives involved? Of course a 757 is bigger than a 707.

Engineers shocked by
towers' collapse

BY BLAIR KAMIN
Chicago Tribune

CHICAGO -- The World Trade Center, a
symbol of American economic might, survived
one terrorist attack in 1993. It was designed to
withstand the impact of a jet, but both its
towers collapsed this morning after planes
rammed them.

The structural engineer who designed the
towers said as recently as last week that their
steel columns could remain standing if they
were hit by a 707.

Les Robertson, the Trade Center's structural
engineer, spoke last week at a conference on
tall buildings in Frankfurt, Germany. He was
asked during a question-and-answer session
what he had done to protect the twin towers
from terrorist attacks, according to Joseph
Burns, a principal at the Chicago firm of
Thornton-Thomasetti Engineers.

Burns, who was present, said that Robertson
said of the center, ``I designed it for a 707 to
smash into it.''

Burns, whose firm did the structural engineering
for the Petronas Twin Towers in Malaysia --
the world's tallest buildings -- said Robertson
did not elaborate on the remark. Robertson
could not be reached early Tuesday.

Completed in 1972 and 1973, the 110-story
twin towers were the fifth and sixth tallest
buildings in the world. One World Trade
Center, finished in 1972, was briefly after its
construction the world's tallest building. The towers have been called
``a monumental gate to New York and the United States.''

They withstood the 1993 attack, when a bomb-laden van exploded,
killing six people and injuring more than 1,000.

Closely spaced steel columns that ringed their perimeter held up the
World Trade Center towers. Chicago's Aon Center (formerly the
Amoco Building), completed in 1973, uses a similar support system,
known to structural engineers as a ``tube.''

Shocked by the building's collapse, structural engineers pointed to fire
as the likely cause of the structural failure.

``Fire melts steel,'' Burns said. In addition, he said, the impact of the
plane could have severely damaged the building's sprinklers, allowing
the fire to rage, despite fireproofing supposed to protect steel columns
and beams.

``You never know in an explosion like that whether they (the
sprinklers) get cut off,'' Burns said.

Architects Minoru Yamasaki and Associates, in association with
Emery Roth & Sons, designed the World Trade Center.

The structural engineers were the firm of Skilling, Helle, Christiansen,
Robertson. The developer was The Port Authority of New York and
New Jersey.

Tuesday's attack marked the second time that a plane has crashed
into a New York City skyscraper, although the first incident was an
accident.

In 1945, a B-25 flying at 200 miles per hour slammed into the 78th
and 79th floors of the Empire State Building, gouging an
18-by-20-foot hole 913 feet above the streets of Manhattan. The
pilot, Lt. Col. William F. Smith Jr., had been heading from New
York's LaGuardia Airport to Newark, N.J., when he became
disoriented.

Fourteen people died in the crash and the fire that followed -- three
people in the plane and 11 in what was then the world's tallest
building.

Like the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, which also was struck
by a plane, provided a sizable and symbolic target.

The Pentagon is the world's largest office building, with a total of 6.5
million square feet, serves as headquarters for the world's most
powerful military. Sears Tower, by comparison, has about 3.5 million
square feet of office space.

Re:I hope...

[jonathan_ingram]

Talking about the middle east is a little premature. I only put the Israel vs Palestine thing in as an aside -- I should have realised it was too sensitive. That said:

You can't have reconcilliation with them. They don't reason. They don't ask for any quarter.

Oh, they reason, and you can have reconcilliation. Don't make the mistake of making Islam into some uncaring, sand-blast the world religion. Just like the Spanish Inquisition, like the Crusaders, like the Conquistadors were no representatives of Christianity, Islam can be twisted and tainted by fanatical madman. They don't represent Islam, but their own idiocy.

The trick is to make countries secure enough that they don't need to resort to extremism. Isolating a country is not the way to do this (I am amazed, for example, that the US still isolate Cuba -- this is another example that the fundamentalist uses to illustate the arbirary uncaring nature of the US).

Laugh all you want, but bombing places into the ground and killing isn't the answer. If it were, 1/4 of the world would still be part of the glorious British empire. The US is now the biggest, the wealthiest, the most important country in the world. Learn from the lessons of previous empires if you want to stay that way.

tactical nukes

[kaisyain]

No, it's not even close to what a tactical nuke would have done. A 5-kiloton yield warhead would kill 98% of the people within one square kilometer instantly just from the pressure (~12psi). Out to about 3 square km you have 50% fatalies from pressure (~5psi). The thermal effects would be fatal (6.7 cal/cm^2) to a radius of about 1.3km and there would be significant injuries out to about 1.8km radius. Immediate radiation would be lethal to 90% of those within 1.2 km of this "low-yield" "clean" burst.

Also thanks to the radiation, clean up and rescue proceeds at a snail's pace.

And that's the low end of sub-strategic yields. The B-61 is lower, at about 1 kiloton, but you also have tactical nukes like those on the Trident that would cause an estimated 200,000 fatalities in an urban area with density similar to Moscow.

Only for a loose definition of "approach" does this tragedy begin to approach the amount of destruction nuclear weapons are capable of even in their tactical form.

Re:tactical nukes

[cybrpnk]

I agree that even a tactical nuke would cause more PHYSICAL DAMAGE than a couple of jetliners and collapse of a couple of huge 110 story skyscrapers. However, the DEATH TOLL is going to be in the high thousands if not tens of thousands. That is a death toll associated with nukes, not conventional explosives. There are very few scenarios where you can kill tens of thousands of people with conventional weapons inside of an hour. This was one of them. This level of deaths is definitely in the "weapons of mass destruction" range and US policy has been that use of a weapon of mass destruction will be retaliated in kind. During the Gulf War (Dubya's dad), that was a veiled threat of going nuclear if Sadddam used nerve gas or anthrax. I believe we may very well (fifty-fifty odds with better than 90% public suppport this time next week) use a single tactical nuke this time around just to show everybody that when this level of violence happens, the US will pull out ALL the stops. And that tactical nuke, if used, isn't going to be a B-61 which is a HELL of a lot bigger than 1 kiloton. A tactical nuke is more like a W-79 nuclear artillery shell... For info on the US nuclear arsenal, check here).

Re:tactical nukes

[Trepidity]

I severely doubt the US will use nuclear weapons. There's very little international support for that, even after such a tragedy, and it's simply not necessary - the US has enough firepower to turn anything they want into dust with conventional weaponry.

Re:We look for the enemy

[b0r1s]

are you referring to this book? ...

Very good book on terrorist cells working within the country ...

Re:About Disaster Requests regarding Blood Donatio

[junk]

you can't donate blood if you're a smoker, can you? i really wanted to, but i think i've been told before that i can't.

Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[FFFish]

Why would Palestinian terrorists target the USA?

Well, perhaps because the USA has exacerbated the mid-East problems, rather than help reduce them.

From BigEye's Foreign Correspondent. No idea how truthful all this is, mind you, but I'm fairly sure it's worth consideration:

BUSH FIDDLES WHILE PALESTINE BURNS

NEW YORK - Pre-election concerns that George W. Bush had a weak grasp of world affairs have been confirmed by a succession of ideology-driven blunders and amateurish fumbles made by his administration that have damaged America's interests and image around the globe.

To whit: trying to rush the anti-missile defense project when there was no need for haste; the tactless rejection of the Kyoto environment accords; Washington's crude enlistment of India in a new anti-Chinese alliance; boycotting this weekend's UN racism conference at Durban: and, most disturbingly, fiddling while Palestine burns.

Who, one wonders, is running US foreign policy? Certainly not the nearly invisible `stealth' Secretary of State Colin Powell. America's first black Secretary of State was not allowed to go to an African-oriented conference in Durban because Israel was being accused of racism.

Last week, Bush berated PLO chief Yasser Arafat for failing to end `Palestinian violence.' Soon after, Israel assassinated Mustafa Zibri, a senior Palestinian political leader, by firing Maverick missiles from Apache helicopter gunships into his office.

The next day, Israeli M-60 tanks and M-113 armored personnel carriers occupied the Palestinian Christian town of Beit Jala.

Meanwhile, it has been revealed that Israel is using the M494 105mm APERS-T tank round against Palestinians. This deadly round, designed for use against enemy anti-tank missile crews, disperses a conical spray of 5,000 tiny, razor-sharp darts known as flechettes. In the past, Israel has also used anti-personnel cluster bombs against Palestinian refugee camps.

All of the above-noted weapons were supplied to Israel by the United States. Israel is also using an arsenal of other US-supplied weapons, from F-16 fighters to M-16 rifles, against Palestinians. Israeli-designed Merkava tanks `pacifying' rebellious Palestinians were built with US military aid.

Israel is the largest ever recipient of US foreign aid - at least $91 billion since 1949, a sum that could have bought four complete aircraft carrier battle groups ( about 80 ships) for the US Navy. Each year, Israel gets $3-5 billion in US aid.

The 1998 Wye River `peace' accords negotiated by President Clinton gave Israel an extra US $380 million for Apache helicopter gunships and armored vehicles - both currently being used against Palestinians. Just before leaving office, Clinton, quietly sent Congress a request for an additional US$800 million in military aid for Israel, a gift no doubt aimed at securing his future in publishing and Hollywood. Soon after, in a startling coincidence, Clinton received a book contract for $12 million.

Many American conservatives and Jewish Americans are praising Bush for giving Israel's rightwing government carte blanche to crush the Palestinian uprising and assassinate its leadership. VP Dick Cheney has repeatedly accused Palestinian of `terrorism' while praising Israel's `restraint.' One wonders what Washington's response would be if the PLO began assassinating Israeli politicians who advocate murdering or ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Israel brushes aside occasional tut-tuts from the US State Department, and ignores charges its American-supplied weapons are being used in direct violation of the US Arms Export Control Act, which forbids recipients use of American arms except for national self defense in wartime.

The White House and US Congress, fearful of antagonizing the Israel lobby, have refused to address this issue. Ironically, it was left to Gush Shalom, the courageous Israeli peace movement, to protest to Bush the clearly illegal use of American arms against Palestinians.

It is increasingly clear that unless the mayhem in Palestine is ended, the entire Mideast could careen towards an explosion. Ariel Sharon, Israel's rightwing Prime Minister, has painted himself into a corner by vowing to crush the `intifada' and never allow a viable Palestinian state. Having provoked the current uprising, and vowed to break its back, Sharon now finds himself trapped in a cycle of violence, terror and counter-terror.

Sharon's only answer so far is more of what he has done his entire career: blowing up houses, assassination, martial law, collective punishments. Now Sharon's aides are hinting at attacks against Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and even Egypt. Israeli critics are warning the Sharon is running amok and must be reigned in.

Given Sharon's adamant refusal to halt Jewish colonization or allow a Palestinian state, Palestinians have no reason to halt their uprising. Only America has the power to push the two sides into an eventual peace agreement.

Israel's brutal repression of the Palestinian `intifada' is being telecast around the globe, producing rage against Israel and its patron, the United States, and a worldwide surge of anti-semitism. America's strategic and economic interests across the Mideast and Muslim World are being threatened by the agony of Palestine, which inevitably invites terrorist attacks against US citizens and property.

President Bush needs to act urgently. He needs to help Sharon find a way out of the corner in which he is stuck. Sharon has left himself no line of political retreat - other than being seen to bow to irresistible American pressure. Bush and VP Dick Cheney should cease helping Israel's rightwing and its American media mouthpieces demonize Yasser Arafat, who, however guilty of condoning violence, is the man with whom Israel has to make peace. Being rightwing does not automatically make one right.

Bush's vanishing act over the Mideast has handed the initiative by default to Arab and Israeli extremists. Unless the US forcefully intervenes, Hamas suicide bombers and Sharon's death squads will determine policy. The result will be a disaster for Jews and Arabs alike.

Bush is being irresponsible and dishonest by pretending America has nothing to do with this horrible mess. America has everything to do with it and could stop the carnage overnight if the White House showed sufficient political will and courage. Bush needs to recall the old adage, he who pays the piper, calls the tune.

Copyright: Eric S. Margolis 2001

Again, perhaps this fellow is lying or out-to-lunch. But if what he states is truthful, I think it's fair to say that the fanatics have just cause to be pissed off (and that's not to say that they are excused for being terrorists.)

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[seebs]

... or it might be because people go out of their way to fan the flames.

Maybe, just maybe, the people who are bombing innocents *aren't* actually the victims in this picture. You can bet I am less willing now than ever before to believe the palestinian people to be "victims" of anything but their own bloodlust. People who cheer and dance at the news that ten thousand innocent people are dead are *sick*, and if those are the people being "repressed", then it's not such a bad thing.

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[FFFish]

Wholly agree. I wish I'd twigged on that: I would have addressed it.

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[MrEfficient]

You seem quite happy about todays events. You've been posting all day about this and I've seen several of your comments. You obviously have a hatred of the US and you're using the events in Israel and Palestine to try and justify what happened today. And don't say that you aren't, don't say that you abhor today's events, because you know deep in your heart that you love it. You've made your feelings quite clear. You're a real piece of shit if you can justify the number of innocent lives taken today, you're no better than the terrorists themselves.

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[FFFish]

Which creates an environment in which these people grow up hating the USA, expecting to civilians to die in terrorist attacks, don't much value life, and remain fucked up.

I dunno what the solution is. I doubt there is one. Someone needs to pay, but I'm not sure that will actually solve anything.

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[MrEfficient]

Why am I fucked up, because I don't buy in to your inane comments, your support for this terrible act? You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about something and you've finally found a forum that listens to your ranting.

And what people think I'm wrong, the slashdot moderators? Do you think that I'm in the minority because I'm infuriated by what happened and at anyone who supports it. Do you think that you're in the majority in thinking that the US deserves this attack. If so, then you have not only not paid attention to the news today, but you've completely lost touch with reality. You've done nothing today but make excuses as to why the US deserves this attack. How can you call yourself human when you take such great pleasure in great suffering?

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[seebs]

Essentially, the people who are cheering about this have made it clear that they think it's a great thing. If they think this is a great thing, we know that, while they might be *unable* to do it, they would if they could.

It's hard to have any sympathy for them, given that. Does this justify Israel's treatment of Palestinians in general? No, but it makes it a lot easier to understand.

Just think about it. Try to imagine someone whose first response to ten thousand innocent bystanders being killed is to say "It's like I'm dreaming, it's so wonderful". What possible grounds can we have for not shooting this rabid dog? He has gone beyond any possible redemption on this earth.

Israel has, so far as I can tell, *responded* to acts of violence. Maybe the violent people should stop for a while, and see if the retaliation stops, too.

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[FFFish]

Fuck you. In no way am I supporting terrorism. What they did is inexcusably atrocious.

What I have advocated is a calm and rational approach in creating a response, and cautioned against painting entire nations/cultures with a broad brush.

I daresay most Americans celebrated the execution of Timothy McVeigh, and rightly so: he was a monster. I do not find it difficult to understand that people who have been raised in an environment of hatred would just as easily celebrate attacks against their version of the monster.

Why do these people view the USA as a monster? I do not know, but the article I posted provides some sort of rationale -- and whether it's true or not, it's certainly the sort of information that they're being fed through propaganda.

I will not condemn en masse an ignorant population. Joe Public walking the streets of Nablus does not deserve to be nuked to glass.

Don't do what the terrorists do: do not desire the destruction of an entire nation as retaliation for the actions of a few. Just as the average American is not personally responsible for the atrocities the terrorists claim against the USA, the average [name your countryfellow] is not to blame for the atrocities perpetrated by the terrorists.

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[FFFish]

Revision: if it turns out that a government sponsored the attack, then this is a declaration of war and there will be civilian casualties. And while that's a shame, it's an acceptable consequence of warfare.

Re:Why Palestinians might be pissed...

[MrEfficient]

All of your posts that I read up to the point where I first responded where about why people are angry at the US. And guess what, I agree, but your timing stinks and it comes across as trying to justify the terrorist attacks. If you were'nt trying to justify it, then you should have made your intentions more clear. Personally I think the creation Israel where it is was a real boneheaded move, it's caused more problems than any other single event I can think of. And I have never been in favor of our sending money and weapons to them. But as an ordinary citizen, there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. And the recent events pretty much guarantee that we won't stop supporting Israel. That would look like we were giving in to terrorism, and we can't do that.

If you want to educate people about the other side of an issue like this, then fine, but remember that there is a time and place for everything. And the day of the attack was definately not the right time to explain the side of the people we see burning our flag on TV. I've been sick of the anti-American attitude of what seems like the rest of the world for a long time, and the recent events have pushed me over the edge. Where I might have been willing to see their side of things before, I can have no sympathy for them right now.

Re:Airlines chosen

[AxelBoldt]

Well, I suspect the backlash from this will leave whoever did it thinking twice about pissing off America as a whole again.

Well, whoever did this is dead. Apparently, they were more than happy to die in order to piss off America.

Confirmed: Akamai CTO on Flight 11

[daoine]

Boston.com is listing that Daniel Lewin, co-founder of Akamai, did in fact die in the WTC plane crash

Re:WTC holds 500,000

[AxelBoldt]

50,000 people work in the towers, not half a million.

Flight recorders will be vital

[Thagg]

I am certain that there are tremendous efforts underway to find and interpret the data on the flight recorders of the airplanes. Rarely are suicide bombers recorded during their attacks, but these people should have been.

I cannot bring myself to believe that the captains of the planes were alive during these attacks, but I also don't understand how the planes could have been flown so precisely by amateurs -- unless the purchase of the jetliner simulator by that Saudi prince is not just the toy that it was taken to be. And, if the terrorists were schooled well in the airplanes, they would have known how to disable the flight recorders, unfortunately.

We'll see.

thad

Akamai founder/CTO killed on plane - confirmed

[rekoil]

Akamai's press release can be found here.

What did he say after killing 125,000 at Hiroshima

[james(honest)]

What did he say after he killed 125,000 civilians by bombing Hiroshima?

Did he say "its ok because these civilians supported a government that we were at war with?"

How did he justify killing civilians, deliberately? With an atom bomb. That killed 70,000 instantly and 55,000 later from radiation poisoning?

So the question is, are civilians of an aggressive nation accountable for the actions of its government? If so, then Hiroshima was ok, but then so was this attack.

If not, of course, then I'm sure the US will happily bring to trial, or assasinate, its own diplomats who were fully aware of the civilian deaths in central america, africa, vietnam, indonesia, iraq...

The guy responsible for the deaths in central america (the disappeared) is about to take his place in the senate, I believe. Start with him, why dont you.

Dont get me wrong, I think the deaths are totally unacceptable. The question is, "How could they have been avoided?". Is there a change in US foreign policy that might reduce the suffering of the rest of the world cause by american aggression?

Misinformation

[vslashg]

This is not right. ALL radars show bad values near the radar station. This is not a dust cloud at all. (Unless you believe that there's also a huge dust cloud around, say, Nashville or Houston as well.)

The cloud wouldn't extend that far. However, papers from the blast were seen miles away, and a reporter ten blocks from the explosions said he could taste the dust in the air.

The Twin Towers should NOT have collapsed!!!...

[Douglas]

When The World Trade Center was being built there
was a heated controversy over the possibility of
one of the Twin Towers buildings collapsing if it
was hit by a large airliner.

People remembered that the Empire State Building
was twice hit by a plane. once by a small plane
and then by a WW2 vintage bomber.

New Yorkers were promised that the Twin Towers
were designed to survive a crash of a Boeng 747
Airliner into the middle of one side of the
building or a corner.

The virtical steel columns that make up the sides
of the Towers were supposed to be strong enough
to survive the impact of a 747 and also to be
strong enough so that 1/2 of the columns on 2
sides could be destroyed and the Tower would still
remain standing.

Each virtical column is supposed to be tied to the
2 adjacent column by a heavy steel I beam at each
floor. The interior floors could collapse onto
lower floors but the engineerring spaces that are
placed every 10 floors are supposed to halt such
a collapse.

The way that the Twin Towers both collapsed from
the top down with the virtical columns peeling
apart indicates that the contracters and the
World Trade Authority lied about how the Towers
were constructed.

If the World Trade Center Towerrs had been built
as they were supposed to have been they would have
been severely damaged but they would not have
collapsed and 10,000 people would still be alive.

Re:The Twin Towers should NOT have collapsed!!!...

[FileNotFound]

A 707 NOT 747.

A 707 is a MUCH smaller plane. It's MUCH smaller than than a 747 and still smaller than the 757's that were involved.

Get your facts straight.

The towers survied the impact. They did not survive the fire.

Just because a bullet proof vest can stop a bullet doesn't mean it will prevent you from burning alive.

Same applies to this. The supports were destroyed by the extreme fire.

Re:The Twin Towers should NOT have collapsed!!!...

[killmenow]

A 707 is a MUCH smaller plane. It's MUCH smaller than than a 747 and still smaller than the 757's that were involved.

Actually, it is now being said that both planes that hit the towers were 767s. The 757s were to attack the Pentagon and Camp David. The Pentagon plane hit its target. The Camp David plane did not.

Re:The Twin Towers should NOT have collapsed!!!...

[cascadefx]

The virtical steel columns that make up the sides of the Towers were supposed to be strong enough to survive the impact of a 747 and also to be strong enough so that 1/2 of the columns on 2
sides could be destroyed and the Tower would still remain standing.

OK, I'll bite. You'll notice that the towers did survive the crash. They didn't, however, survive the aftermath. As an earlier post said "fire melts steel." Take a highly combustible substance like, um, I don't know, jet fuel, and toss a few hundred (thousand ?) gallons around and add a crash to kick it all off and I bet you have a fire to best almost any solid engineering.

Besides, if you watched Building Big, you'd realize that the worst place to hit a skyscraper is about two thirds of the way up. You see, they have these huge stabilizers in their upper floors that glide back and forth to help combat the effects of wind shear. If the building is hit around this area it turns into a critical breakpoint. It seems, from the series at least, that wind alone can tear skyscapers apart if they don't have systems actively counteracting the affects of wind.

My guess is that the planes started the job (which the building survived), but the fire and Mother Nature finished it up.

Satellite image of WTC plume

[Qwerty Augustus]

The plume extends about 100 miles along the NJ coastline.
http://www.iceaxe.org/misc/010911WTCPlume.jpg

Re:Could these horrible events occur with no Inter

[SlippyToad]

Sure. They could have used those insidious phones and paper letters!

Get real. The people planning this probably spent some time training together to get it right.

You've "seen some stories." We've all seen some fucking stories on the Internet. I remember, before I ever used the Internet, reading Vernor Vinge's "Fire on the Deep." My favorite quote was "They don't call it the Net of A Million Lies for nothing."

Yes, I think the world will be different after today too. But I don't think the answer (implied in your premise) is preventing people from communicating with each other.

Damn Canada and it's restrictions

[Malc]

I live in Ontario, which of course shares a border with NY state. I can't give blood normally, and today is no exception (I called and emailed them (http://www.bloodservices.ca/home.html)).

It's because I'm British. Anybody who has spent more than 3 mos in the UK since 1980 cannot give blood due to fears of vCJD. I also know for a fact that the US doesn't have such restrictions as I gave blood 2 years ago whilst living in Colorado.

Oh well, I shall have to think of some other way of helping.

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[JWhitlock]

The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.

This is not state-based terrorism. This is a small group of fanatics. Your stupid, stupid tactic would make it a war.

Terrorism is cyclical, not a three step process. You are attacked, you get angry, you retaliate. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Look at Ireland, the Middle East, etc. Do you want our grandchildren to still be fighting the same damn "war"?

We wait. We continue to work. We find the black boxes, the voice recorders, we investigate. Those that did it are on the run. They are in hiding, and think we don't know where they are. Let they sweat a little. When we have the evidence, when the world knows, then we act. Maybe not even violently - put them in front of the same court as Millosevich, make them stand trial.

Above all, we show that we are rational humans, and not dogs that bite because we were bit.

PROPOSED NAME

[GigsVT]

I propose this day be known as the "911 massacre", which might just have been the intent of the attackers, deciding to attack on 9/11/2001.

Condolences to those who lost loved ones today. When will we learn?

some people do things honestly.

[twitter]

We're up again, and clearly we're going to be smashing the hell out of _somebody_...

Not so fast. W has promised to hunt and punish those responsible. That does not mean he's going to do the coward Bill Clinton thing and lob cruise missiles to cover some kind of domestic scandal. No, I expect US agents will hunt down the dirt bags responsible for this, extridite them, prove them guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and hang them high.

Cowardly?

[Molf]

An act of murder? Yes. Apalling? Yes. Horrifying? Yes. Cowardly? Not to anyone who knows what the word means. No matter what atrocity is committed, no matter how senselessly violent, a kamikaze attack is not the work of a coward. Giving your life for a cause you believe in is about as far from cowardly as it is possible to get.

WTOP reports that PA plane WAS SHOT DOWN

[GMontag]

Just a few moments ago WTOP - FM, Washington DC, interviewed a Congressman (sorry, missed his name) and the Congressman confirmed that the PA crash was from a shoot down by US Military.

Note: info is from a Congressman, could be total BS, ya never know. Might be why WTOP is not running it on their website, but the descriptoin from a witness on the plane in this story:
http://www.wtop.com/news/news-story.jhtml?NewsId =1 87235 indicates that some sort of explosion happened before the plane went down.

The same radio story reported that the Congressional Leadership has been evacuated to their safe facility.

Flight 77 is confirmed to be the one that hit the Pentagon. A Congressional aide was on the flight and reporting to someone by cell phone about what was going on.

Police scanner shoutcast streams

[rschroeder]

from: http://www.myacen.com.au/

The Myacen Network, wishes to send our condolences to the people in America, we have made a few servers that you can listen to events unfold live

213.112.17.26:8000

mille.ath.cx:8000

217.208.77.17:8000

166.90.143.147:23160

213.204.131.71:8000

194.236.120.230:8000

Re:Serious questions for anyone who's been in the

[Royster]

I understand that it takes at least 30 minutes to evacuate the tower if they can use the elevators. It takes about an hour to walk down from one of the top floors if the elevators are not available.

My next door neighbor was in one of the towers this morning when the first plane struck. They began evacuations before the second plane hit. My neighbor was completely out of the building before the collapse and was uninjured.

WTC design

[InterGuru]

From ">John Young

quoted in Dave Farber's Newsletter

A word on the structure of the WTC towers:

The WTC towers had a distinctive structural system which utilized
the exterior wall framing for lateral bracing -- a so-called lattice
framework. This allowed minimization of internal lateral bracing
and opened up the floor plans. You can see the effect of that when
the buildings collapsed, with the lattice framework crumbling and
the interior imploding. The lattice works so long as it remains
intact as a system: if a part of it goes, then the whole system
goes.

The planes punched holes in the lattice, one tower punched
on two sides, maybe the other too. Portions of the lattice of
the second tower briefly remained standing after the collapse,
then fell.

The system was considered daring at the time of construction, for
it distributed loads more efficiently than legacy column-and-beam-
supported systems. Probably the legacy systems would not have
totally collapsed due to damage at upper floors, although floors
above the damage would have come down if columns were
weakened.

Below is a comment by me.

The designers could never have forseen a terrorist attack, but the should have forseen
an airplace collision.
One happened in 1945 at the Empire State Building

Re:Tony Blair statement 19:00 GMT

[JCMay]

I think you may be speaking of the French (just kidding).

The English were able to successfully repel the Germans during World War 2; don't you know your history? If I remember correctly, the English won the Battle of Brittain. Before the United States entered the war.

Re:But it *doesn't* solve things

[mpe]

While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence,

No one in their right mind would launch a missile attack against the US. Even if they had an accurate 20MT nuke to fire off at NORAD. For the simple reason that doing so pinpoints their exact location, which would then be passed to USAF and/or USN.

the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for.

Nor did they have to pay for the aircraft.

Murder Simulators

[Gorobei]

So some people complained that Doom, etc, were murder simulators. Everyone missed the fact that Microsoft Flight Simulator, etc, are probably the real murder simulators. A terrorist organization can now train a person to fly a big jet well enough to hit a building. Maybe not taking off and landing, but the easy flying skills are easily attainable.

No pilot, even with a gun at his head, is going to hit the TWC rather than the Hudson river.

This is really, really, scary.

Re:But it *doesn't* solve things

[Malcontent]

"No matter what the Western nations do, they will never be popular, because we have principles, like human rights, which we champion, but aren't convenient for dictators and fundamentalists. "

Are you seriously suggesting that the western nations don't fund and support dictators and fundamentalists? That we alway act in the good of democracy and human rights? If we held fast to our principles and refused to prop up murderous regimes and refused to fund state supported genocides then people would not hate us so much.

BTW this attack was most likely organized and carried out by no more then a dozen people. You would have to kill enough arabs to make hitler look like a saint to prevent it from happening again. As long as people would rather die then live under your thumb they will commit suicide attacks. You either have to make peace somehow or commit acts of massive genocide. In the case of Germany the people chose to commit genocide I hope the US can resists the calls for racial cleansing that are sure to follow (and from reading /. and your post are already being called for).

Re:Our Response

[EnglishTim]

So it would be fine if Britain had gone storming into Ireland every time the IRA bombed London?

good job slashdot

[geekoid]

Just a moment to say Good Job to the /. crew.
You saw these events as critical, and you posted information we all needed.

also, congrats on the system hanging in, true test of the new code.

God Bless.

Unlikelyhood of sucessful simultaneous hijackings

[Robber Baron]

Knowing the kind of security surrounding civil aviation, it is highly unlikely that any group could successfully pull off 4+ simultaneous hijackings. How much do you want to bet some "intelligence" agency knew about these hijackings in advance and allowed them to happen in order to make the case for greater funding to combat terrorism, not realising what the outcome of these hijackings would be?

Re:Hiroshima, Nagasaki

[AxelBoldt]

You may not know this, but even in war you are not allowed to target civilians. And it doesn't matter who attacked first; it's an absolute rule.

Re:Repercussions

[slykens]

AMEN! I agree the first thing that needs to happen is the launch of total annihilating attacks against any and all known terrorist camps, harborers, and supporters.

These pieces of shit need to know that if they fuck with the bull they're gonna get the horns, and those horns are anything from B-52s with cruise missiles to low-yield tactical nuclear weapons.

I don't know how else to send the message appropriately. Terrorists need to know that we're not going to play cat-and-mouse anymore and that if we think they're planning something then we're coming and not just to say hello.

Where to donate blood?

[imadork]

I'm trying to find a place to donate blood here in Rochester, NY.

I've tried calling the Red Cross's national numbers, but they're flooded with calls. Area hospitals here aren't set up to recieve blood donations yet.

I'm sure they'll have information in the paper tomorrow, and my blood will be just as useful then.

Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour

[InsaneGeek]

You should also put the japanese "Rape of Nanking" into your reference.... Hadn't heard of it? Then maybe you should look into it. It's where Japan invaded China, killed 300,000 men in the town of Nanking, and raped 20,000 women. The Japanese soldiers used live Chinese men as bayonet dummies for training. Women worked repeatedly raped until their "usefulness" wear off and they were repeatedly bayonetted (one survivor was gang raped, stabbed 30+ times in the back, and left for dead. Others had stakes driven through their vagina's, had their children bayonteded infront of them, tied up prisoners in a line and machinegunned them down into mass graves (kind of like the Nazi's), buried people alive.

The sad part of it is, the US is willing to acknowledge that it dropped a deadly weapon on a country it was at war with; but Japan is unwilling to acknowledge during WWII they ever committed these horrendous acti in China, heck they won't even acknowledge they were ever even there in their own textbooks (there's learning from the past for you).

Here's your proof.

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/19 55 /nanking-pics.htm
http://www.missouri.edu/~jschool/nanking/
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporate d/ 1895-1945/jpwcrmz.htm
http://www.salon.com/books/sneaks/1999/01/11snea ks .html

A perfect world wouldn't need any encryption

[TeknoHog]

In the world of my dreams, there will be no encryption. Not for personal messages, but neither for movies or music. In that sense, I would support a ban on all encryption, but that would also mean essentially free distribution of all information.

The problem, of course, is that you cannot control the ban. There are already systems of encryption that convert terrorist messages into harmless looking chats. And encryption is like a weapon in the sense that the natural way to fight it is by using it yourself.

There's an error in this article.

[MongooseCN]

Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, or this posting was not based on anything substantion.

firing Maverick missiles from Apache helicopter gunships

These missles are huge. I don't think an apache can even carry one of them. They are only used on large jets. Hellfires and stingers are the only missles apaches can use.

/bin/laden/facts

[twitter]

Why would anyone think to blame the dude who tried to do this in 1995, and again in 1998, and openly states the goal of his organization is to "kill Americans"? Concluding that this as you put it, gun-toting radical Islamic militant, did this is common sense. When the facts come in, that man is going to swing. Hell, if he were ever brought to trial he might just hang for all the other things he's done.

Elephant guns

[bildstorm]

Good point here:

-----quote-----
This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.
----end quote----

Terrorist organisations generally tend to leech of the resources of nations and their infrastructures. That's what makes them hard to find. But then again, it's hard find a bee's nest. Once found, though, no point in using that elephant gun on the swarm. Elephant guns do wonders to bee hives.

Re:How to solve this?

[EnderWiggnz]

1) armed guards on every flight

2) Sealed cockpits

Re:Prophesized by Nostradamus?

[Control-Z]

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654

Will people stop it with the Nostradamus posts already? I can't imagine that NYC would be considered the City of God, and who exactly are the two brothers? There will be no world war unless we find out this attack was sanctioned by a specific country, which I consider very unlikely.

Inaccuracy

[virg_mattes]

I'm not only unmoved by your mislabeling of the atomic attacks, but I also find that you're wrong. If you're going to count acts between nations in a declared state of war as "mass murder", the undisputed champion is Hitler, with 11 million Russians killed.

Now go away.

Virg

WORLD REACTION & LINKS

[FFFish]

From a site that seems to be working well:

World Leaders react -- "The following are reactions from around the world to the disasters at New York's World Trade Centre and the Pentagon."

Related Links -- US Gov't, US Military, NYC, Airlines, and Anti-Terrorism Resources.

Also worth noting that many mid-East leaders of all stripes and colours are denouncing this terrorist act.

Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.

Re:WORLD REACTION & LINKS

[FFFish]

Who Dunnit -- the BBC "Within minutes of the horrific chain of events unfolding at the World Trade Center, information began emerging suggesting it was not a terrible accident but a terrorist attack."

World Shock -- BBC "The attacks on New York and Washington have brought swift reactions of horror and condemnation from around the world."

Notable quotable: "But Iraqi television played a patriotic song that begins "Down with America!" as it showed the World Trade Center's towers falling, The Associated Press news agency reported."

America has made a permanent enemy of Iraq. I can't imagine how that will ever be changed. :-(

Pearl Harbor

[The_Shadows]

This is the worst attack on America. Ever. The destruction at Pearl Harbor can only begin to compare with the carnage that has taken place in America today. September 11, 2001 is a day that will live on in infamy. It is an unprovoked attack on American soil.

For those who don't seek vengeance, I can only say that you are likely not living in America. There will be a reckoning. Whoever did this, and it's looking like Bin Ladin, will be found an eradicated. Whoever is harboring them will be eradicated. Whoever defends them will be eradicated. War is now inevitable.

Good may eventually come of it, as good did eventually come from Pearl Harbor and WWII. But for the time being, we will be mobilizing, preparing for war. We were shocked. Now we are angry.

And anyone who says that we're going to war because "Bush is crzy enough to start one" as I've heard people say (though haven't looked closely on the forum here) is dead wrong. We will be going because it's the right thing to do. We need, firstly, to show the world that we will not be shaken by this, and to show the world what happens when you fsck with the USA. Any potential president, Bush, Gore, Nader, Bud Brown, Clinton, anyone would be looking for a perpetrator right now with the intent to kill. We can see this.

From a purely political standpoint, the nation is calling for vengeance. Any preisdent who sought re-election for himself or anyone in his party would commit political suicide otherwise.

This is edited slightly for content, mostly for length:

"The United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. The United States was at Peace with the world. We have been looking towards the maintenacne of world peace. This attack was deliberately planned days or even weeks ago. The attack on our cities has caused damage to civilians and economic centers. Very many America lives have been lost.

The facts, so far, today speak for themselves. The American people have already formed their opinions, and well undertstand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation. The commander in chief has directed our forces in our defense. Always, will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the America people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. We will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but we will make certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us again. We will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.
This was an unprovoked and dastardly attack on the united states."

Franklin D. Roosevelt, December 8, 1941

December 7, 1941. A day that has lived on in infamy. September 11, 2001 will live on in infamy now as well.

Never again. Never.

Re:Pearl Harbor

[msouth]

For those who don't seek vengeance, I can only say that you are likely not living in America.

I do not seek vengeance. I live in America. I wish America would wake up to the way it has ignored the horrible injustices that Palestinians have suffered at the hands of Israel and which we have supported or turned a blind eye to.

You want to look around for a culprit--look at the demand side of the equation, instead of the shallow analysis focusing on the supply (Bin Ladin and his ilk).

The demand comes from injustices that have gone unanswered, and left to fester and cause people to...

...seek for vengeance.

Re:The Palestinians are Celebrating!

[Danse]

You might feel diferently if another country walked into your town and bulldozed your home down and kicked you out of town. The Palestinians have been fucked over by Israel, and the US is Israel's biggest backer. We give them all the money and military hardware they're using to kick the Palestinians out of their own homes. If I was Palestinian, I'd be pretty damn pissed too. Most of them probably have little or nothing to lose by attacking the US.

I hear people claim all the time that we should bomb entire countries in the middle east. Their rationale is that if these people won't stand up to their government and make them act properly, then they are just as responsible and deserve to be bombed. We are now victims of that same sort of thinking. We are being held responsible for the actions of our government. We call it terrorism and cowardice. But most Americans aren't even aware of the actions our government carries out in our name around the world. I'm not sure which is the greater tragedy, a terrorist attack such as this, or the level of ignorance and apathy of the American people where our government and multinational corporations are concerned.

Occasionally Re:Facial recognition software, a...?

[HiThere]

There are legitimate uses of facial recognition software. One of them is securing an area where the people who should be allowed in are a small number, and it is reasonable to require everyone to identify themselves.

If it's not already reasonable to require everyone to identify themselves, then it's not right to use facial recognition software.

If you need to present a passport, then it's reasonable to say that you are identifying yourself. If you need to present an employee id badge, likewise. Walking down the street is a totally different circumstance.

Canadian Fighters Force Down Hijacked Jet

[Phrogman]

There is a report on the CBC website that Canadian Fighters have forced down two Korean aircraft in Whitehorse in the Yukon. It is believed that at least one of the jets was hijacked. It is currently surrounded by RCMP and the local Military from what I understand.

Here is the article since the site is hard to reach at the moment:

Suspect 747 escorted down in Yukon

WebPosted Tue Sep 11 15:44:33 2001

TORONTO - Schools and government offices in Whitehorse, Yukon were evacuated Tuesday as jet fighters escorted two commercial airliners to unscheduled landings, after aviation authorities suspected one of the aircraft may have been hijacked.

One of the airliners is a Korean Airlines 747, the other an unknown 747. Both landed at Whitehorse airport. The jet fighters continue to circle over Whitehorse.

Peter Novak of CBC Radio in Whitehorse told CBC News Online that aviation authorities said one of the aircraft may have been hijacked. Novak said highways in and out of town may have been closed, and a bomb squad was at the airport.

The identified Korean aircraft is believed to have been low on fuel and was redirected to Whitehorse.

Canadian transportation officials have also shut down all airports in Canada indefinitely as U.S.-bound international flights arrive on Canadian runways.

All domestic and international flights have been grounded as a precautionary measure after a series of attacks on high-profile targets in the United States.

Transportation Minister David Collenette says Canada is taking security very seriously and will be carefully monitoring the situation.

Prime Minister Jean Chretien has condemned what he called a "cowardly attack" south of the border and pledged full assistance to the U.S. He assured Canadians to remain calm, noting that the government was increasing security.

Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs has issued a phone number for anyone worried about friends or family in the New York area. Spokesperson Marie Lilkoff says Canadians can call 1-800-387-3124 for information.

U.S. flights diverted to Canada

The United States Federal Aviation Authority had earlier ordered all international flights to the United States to be diverted to Canada.

Airports throughout Atlantic Canada are beginning to receive a large influx of flights. Moncton, N.B., and St. John's, Nfld., expect up to 25 diverted planes, and CFB Goose Bay in Labrador expects close to 60 unscheduled landings.

Halifax airport says they currently have 23 planes on the ground and expect 27 more. The RCMP will search all of the passengers' luggage and they will be transported to large sports facilities in the city for the night. All the hotels in Halifax are full.

Passengers arriving in St. John's will be put up in hotels, conference centres and private homes. Many Toronto residents are also offering their homes to travellers stranded at Pearson Airport.

"All Canadian airspace has been closed other than for inbound overseas flights," said Calgary Airport Authority spokesperson Mike Cunnington.

Effects across Canada

All Canadian border traffic to New York state is limited. Border guards are on high alert and inspecting all vehicles, said Serge Charette, national president for the customs union. He says travellers with a valid reason to be in either country will be allowed through.

The Chief of Maritime staff in Halifax has ordered a lock-down and has posted guards at the gates the navy dockyards and the Shearwater air base.

The rocket-proof gates of the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa were surrounded by police cruisers and plain-clothes officers. Public Affairs officer Buck Shenkman says security will increase, but the embassy will remain open.

The Canadian Blood Services is urging people to contact their local donor branch in a cross-country effort for blood donations to ship to emergency centres in the U.S.

In Ontario, Premier Mike Harris offered his province's full support to the U.S. government, including medical support.

Many office complexes in Toronto allowed their employees to leave work as a precaution, jamming subways and the downtown train station. The CN Tower has also been shut down.

The CN tower belongs to the World Federation of Tall Towers, along with the World Trade Centre and the two work together frequently.

"Quite a few of CN Tower staff work with World Trade Center staff. There was a lot of back and forth travel in the last month. We both belong to the same industry association and this tragedy has hit us personally," commented Bud Purves, President and GM of the CN Tower.

Written by CBC News Online staff

Re:Canadian Fighters Force Down Hijacked Jet

[mlafranc]

Reported on CBC -NOW- 3:58

Hijacked plain in yukon was actually low on fuel, and sent the code indicating a Hijack, to gather attention. They certainly got it!

from interview with -Wil Engle - Former Amer. Airlines.

Also, in Kabul Afganastan, bombings or otherwise explosions are being broadcast.

A thought from the Gospel

[microcat]

Just think about this

Matteo 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
Matteo 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places:
Matteo 24:8 all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs.
Matteo 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
Matteo 24:10 And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.
Matteo 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
Matteo 24:12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold.
Matteo 24:13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matteo 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

Re:Airlines chosen

[SlippyToad]

Someone is certain to have remained behind to benefit from this. I'm listening to a Tool song as I read this. "Ticks and Leeches" off of Lateralus. "Hope this is what you wanted. Hope this is what you had it mind. 'Cause this is what you're getting."

I rather think the end result of this will be a zero tolerance policy for terrorists. They will not be able to pop their little fucking heads up to talk about their "message" anymore without fear of getting immediately capped.

It wasn't jacked, it was low on fuel..

[Robber Baron]

But understandably everyone is very edgy...
I'm close to Vancouver Intl. Just heard a very noisy military aircraft fly by.

I just want to say...

[macdaddy]

I know this post is going to be lost in the unprecidented mass of posts that have occured today, but I want to say it just the same. To all those /.ers, foreign and domestic that have expressed their condolences for the tragic loss today, thank you. Your voices are heard, if only for an instant. For those of you in the US, please please please consider giving blood or a few dollars to the Red Cross Emergency Relief Fund. This was an attack on us as a nation and we need to stand together as one nation. Also, express your support to the government officials that represent you to take terminal action against those that threaten our great nation or any other nation for that matter. For you non-US /.ers, express your support to whomever represents you in your government for their support of anti-terrorist measures that need to be taken. Tomorrow it may be your country that falls under terrorist attack.

Also, I don't recall any other /. series or stories (3 in all so far) receiving as great as attention as they have today. 3685 comments have been posted so far. I think that's a record.

Re:oh, please

[WNight]

I didn't know you enjoyed watching people shit...

You know, a flag is just a bit of cloth. If you're so fired up about what it represents, you're an utter moron.

Re:thanks to religion

[Alex Belits]

You may denounce the God of the Bible (God of Israel) now, but where will you be 5ms after you die?

In /dev/null, just like everyone else, including you. Lie, no matter how sweet, is for cowards.

Re:no Athiests

[Rei]

A humanist might. Not that killing innocent people for revenge would be remotely compatable with humanism, of course. ;)

-= rei =-

Pearl Harbor Comparisons, Did the US Expect it?

[kirn_malinus]

I've been reading a lot of posts and news stories comparing this horrific event to what happened at Pearl Harbor, and I can't help but think of another plausible similarity. Many of you have probably heard before that the United States government most likely knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor, or at least that evidence suggests this. (We had broken their codes, decoded messages sent to their embassy in DC implying the attack was coming, we wanted to get into the war, it made a good excuse).

I can't help but think of the similarities here. The United States has been trying to capture bin Laden for years (assuming he is behind this, as current evidence seems to suggest), but has been unable to. In fact, intelligence information on bin Laden is a total void, no one knows much about his organization at all, "No nation has successfully penetrated the organization".

Reports suggest that there have been hints that this attack was coming for as long as two months, and I personally find it hard to believe that an attack of this scale was orchestrated without any hint of it coming to the attention of US Intelligence agents. Also, the threat has been made and has been public knowledge for as long as two months:

Reuters is reporting that Arabic satellite television channel MBC warned Sept. 8 that followers of suspected Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden were planning a major attack on U.S. and Israeli interests in the next two weeks. Israeli Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer also warned Sept. 10, the day before attacks on U.S. targets in New York and Washington, that "a coalition has been formed recently between terror organizations, Palestinians, Shiites and bin Laden operating against Israeli, American and European targets." (www.stratfor.com)

Israeli daily Haaratz also reported that Saudi dissident Osama Bin Laden warned three weeks ago that he would carry out unprecedented attacks against U.S. for supporting Israel. (www.stratfor.com)

The facts point to prior knowledge of today's events being in existance.

So why would the US government not do anything about it? Perhaps they actually want to capture bin Laden so badly, that they were willing to let the attacks happen, so that they could be provided with an excuse to launch an attack on the scale of war. We are currently at Defcon Delta, only a step away from war. Perhaps they didn't think the attacks would be as horrible as they actually were, and assumed that the causualties would be minimal and worth the gains, namely the ability to attack bin Laden.

Would you put this past our government? I know I wouldn't, I actually believe they've done it in the past.

My theory how it happened

[blang]

No weapons were involved.

2 to 3 people for each flight, but most likely 2. Most likely checked in with false ids to make it harder to trace their origins. Probably also had bought tickets at different times, and for different part of the plane. One of the terrorists, or possible all of them, in case any of them were hurt or killed during the operation, have received basic pilot training, just enough to steer it at target.

Smuggling in firearms would have been too risky. But there are 1000's of ways to kill a person without the use of firearms. Piece of string, poison, martial arts techniques ... You can't spot a black belt in karate with x-rays

It appears that they are trying to hide their identities, so the whole operation might have been done in silence, to avoid any conversation being stored on the flight recording box.

They might even have worn masks or makeup during checkin to make it harder to identofy them from airport securoty tapes.

Flying a Boeing

[PaxTech]

Well, IANAP (I am not a pilot) but how hard could it really be? They weren't concerned with taking off or landing, and they could have had the regular pilots fly them to the general vicinity of the target. Then they kill the pilot, and all they have to do is steer the plane into the building. How hard could it be? A few days of flight sim training?

Of course, I'm totally talking out my ass.. Any pilots out there have an opinion on this?

Why? because they're _terrorists_

[hodeleri]

The terrorists would just start killing passengers and crew one by one until the pilot(s) opened the door. Making the cockpit completely self-sufficient would cost far, far too much (it'd need a bathroom, etc) so there would be no way to lock the pilot into the cockpit so they could only be let out once they land again.

Crusade

[anshil]

For all who blame other religions think of the cristian holy crusades! How many people were killed in the past in the name of our god?

Phone call from hi-jacked plane

[yomahz]

A co-worker recieved a call from a friend at American Airlines (he works at the airline's call center) and apparently there was a call from a flight attendant reporting that the hi-jackers where of arabic origin and that 2 flight attendants and a passenger (trying to put up a struggle) was killed with a knife.

A key was taken from one of the flight attendants and they entered the cabin and killed the pilots.

search/registry of survivors

[Anonymous Coward]

someone sent me these links:

This site will register people who are safe:
http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/

You can query this site to search for people:
http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/find.php

Re:Hiding under his bed

[EnderWiggnz]

what, you want teh president to go to the white house and paint A BIG FUCKING BULLSEYE ON HIS ASS?

i'm a raging liberal, and ya kmnow what, its time to get behind teh president. even if he is an illegitimate scumbag, he's still the president of the US, and the US is under attack.

he should be in a bunker, far underground with reports of airforce one flying to different airforce bases and him getting out.

oh yeh, thats whats happening

In "Fight Club" the buildings were empty.

[moller]

All of the people that "worked" on the buildings were Tyler's people, so they all knew about it and were elsewhere when the buildings went down.

So it's 0 lives lost in the buildings being destroyed in "Fight Club" (not counting other deaths in the movie).

~Moller

Canadian Foreign Office number

[nano-second]

For Canadians worried about relatives in NYC.

1-800-387-3124

Re:AKAMAI Exec Killed - Verified

[BdosError]

I can't connect to that site, but the news is on Akamai's main page.

Re:What did he say after killing 125,000 at Hirosh

[cavemanf16]

Well, in order to actually beat Japan soundly, win the war, and stop the Pacific bickering over land issues, it was estimated it would take over 200,000 US soldiers (mostly under the age of 25) to take Japan by conventional methods. Dropping two nukes (it would have only been one if their leader hadn't been so stubborn) was more humane. Besides, the leaders of a country are directly responsible for the citizens in their charge, to God and to humanity, so when citizens die from moronic decisions (like reducing our defense budget - thanks, Clinton!), then yes, we will reap the consequences in the here and now. But guess who gets to bear the burden of 125,000 dead in Japan forevermore? The Japanese leader at the time does.

Akamai: Co-founder dies in WTC plane crash

[ath0mic]

This from:
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/
Daniel Lewin, co-founder and chief technology officer (CTO) at Akamai Technologies Inc., is said by his company to have died Tuesday as a passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 11. The Boeing 767, originally bound for Los Angeles from Boston, crashed into the World Trade Center in New York and became the first of two airliners to slam into the 110-story structure, opening an apparently coordinated terrorist attack.

Re:Hiroshima, Nagasaki

[WNight]

Damn right. Stalin, Pol Pot, both ordered the deaths of far more people than Hitler.

And, for death tolls, the US bombing of Dresden killed more people than the atomic bomb in Hiroshima did. In a slower, more painful way probably. And Germany was closer to surrender at that point than Japan was.

People are such sheep. I know many people who think the allies were completely unjustified in bombing Japan. When I question them, I find that many don't know that Hiroshima was a military target, that Japan had vowed to never surrender, that a land assault would have cost the lives of an estimated 150-250k allied troops alone, as well as many more Japanese.

The ignorance of the general public is fucking pathetic. And these people's votes carry as much say as anyone else. Ugh. (I'm not saying people have to agree with me, just that they should at least make an effort to learn about an issue before taking a strong stand on it.)

reflection on comments posted

[SpaceGhost]

A couple of days ago I heard a report about a Palistinian village. Israel had suspected that terrorists were there, so Israeli tanks surrounded the village, bombarded it, and left. It was a small report, almost an aside to the main news, which was lots of talk about the U.S. economy, and how not EVERYONE had a job.

I kept thinking about that village. I wondered what it would feel like, to feel afraid for your life, to not know where they might strike next.

Now I know. Today at work I kept looking out the window, reassured to see the un-marred Houston skyline. I thought of the many possible stategic sites that could be hit in Houston, of refineries that could spew poisens for days, of skyscrapers here full of people.

And I thought of that Palistinian village. They've been living with this kind of terror for months, even years.

This attack did not occur in a vacuum. Certainly those responsible committed a horrible act. But responding with another horrible act wouldn't help. Do we blow up Afghanni families, just in case it was Osama Bin Laden? Do we push the Israelis to attack large Palistinian areas, only to find it was another Timothy McVey?

Regardless of whether one agrees with the current administrations foreign policies, it would be reasonable to recognize a very real arrogance in the dispensation of those policies. The United States acts like it is the invulnerable master, the king of the hill, casting justice and consensus aside. Just this week the US refused to participate in a UN conference on racism. We do anything we want, and dare anyone to try and do anything about it.

Someone did. It would only make things worse to react in an agressive military fashion. Certainly justice must be served, but it should be measured, accurate and appropriate.

America is a special place, luckier than most humans have ever seen. We spend most of our time planning parties and designing toys. When something like this happens we should step back, look at the BIG picture, and reflect - what have we done to help? Has any one of us written to a congressman, expressing concern over continued financial support of the heavy-handed Israelis? How many of us even NOTICE what our foreign policy is?

Several media reports have referred to this as a second Pearl Harbour. We would be wise to recall that our enemies in that conflict are now some of our staunchest allies. Also forgotten was the American blockade of fuel oil to Japan, precipitating the attack.

This morning the first person I talked to after I heard the news was a black man in an auto parts store. He was lamenting the fighting in the middle east, pointing out that here in Houston such strife is all but unthinkable. The Hispanic parts salesman and I agreed.

The United States is a unique culture, made up of disparate cultures themselves sometimes at odds with each other in their respective homelands. Now one of these conflicts has struck our home. A strong response is appropriate, but we should also look at our actions and attitudes, and take what measure of responsibility is ours. Then, maybe instead of dealing with a symptom, we can address a cause - perhaps even right a wrong.

Re:But it *doesn't* solve things

[hearingaid]

This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.

In a way, this is true. In another way, it is not.

Normally, when a terrorist group commandeers an airplane, all they need are weapons on board the plane and the ability to persuade the pilot to do what they want, normally achieved by threatening to kill everyone aboard.

In this case, they could not have had the ability to persuade the pilot to do what they wanted --- because they wanted to do something which would kill everyone aboard, including the pilot. You can't threaten somebody like that: "Kill yourself or I will kill you." A rational person will refuse, and hope that you don't really mean it - there's no point in going along.

So they must have had at least one trained pilot on each flight. Admittedly, they wouldn't have need a commercial pilot; an ordinary military pilot would be okay. But even that?

How much is a military pilot worth? More than $20,000? Now multiply that by 5.

This is why there are a limited number of possible organizations capable of pulling this off. Hell, the IRA couldn't have pulled this one off. (Not that they would have, at least not this way - even with the Manchester and Canary Wharf bombs, there were warning calls made.)

And now those five pilots are lost. We just have to hope there's no terrorist organizations out there with 35 pilots in their ranks. Imagine... ugh.

Preventing a Martial Law/Police State backlash

[remande]

As other posters have mentioned, the government is likely to respond to this attack by attempting to severly curtail personal freedoms in a "war on terrorism".

I am taking a pre-emptive strike against that, and I invite you all to join in. The fun part is, it's all completely non-violent and legal. All you kill are trees.

I am writing my congressman and senators. I ask other Slashdotters to do the same. You can find them and their mailing addresses at www.house.gov and www.senate.gov.

You will want to snailmail them on this one. Snailmail seems to have more impact on legislators than email.

Come up with your own wording, or use my words below as a template (or even literally--I don't mind).

This day has seen a tremendous tragedy. We must remember, however, to be deliberate in how we react to this horror.

There has been a lot of political pressure lately to get on a "tough on crime" bandwagon. This bandwagon believes that we must give up certain constitutional freedoms in order to better protect ourselves. Thus we have attempts to limit ownership of weapons, attempts to legislate the internet, attempts to criminalize the civilian use of cryptographic privacy, and so forth. There is a knee-jerk reaction, whenever the United States is attacked, to trade basic American freedoms for supposed security.

I am writing to plead with you to fight this bandwagon. Yes, we must be tough on crime. Yes, we absolutely must discover who did this to us and take whatever steps are necessary to neutralize the threat. But to attempt to do so by removing our freedoms is doomed to failure and destructive to America as a whole. To do that would be to cooperate with the terrorists who wish to destroy us.

Though you are likely thinking along the same lines, I must point out that this was a difficult, professional attack that took elite personnel--something entirely different from the regular street crime our police face every day. They successfully hijacked three or four aircraft in one day, without one failed attempt. They bypassed some of the toughest security civilians are subject to. The caliber of terrorist that must have done this will be unfettered by attempts to control gun ownership, internet usage, cryptography or dozens of other laws. The penalty of law is irrelevant when you are willing to die in your attack. If you can get a weapon past security (which I must assume these people did), getting your hands on one in the first place is easy, regardless of how many laws are in place.

If we, as a nation, react to this by instituting laws "for our own protection" that stomp all over the freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution of the United States, we will do no harm to those who attack us, but tremendous harm to our own law-abiding citizens.

Terrorism is a form of warfare that does not attack our military assets, but the spirit of the civilians. Though it looks otherwise, the war is not fought in New York, not fought at the Pentagon, not fought at Oklahoma City. It is fought in the halls of Congress. I ask you to stand tall and fight for the values that make America great against your colleagues who think it is safest to stay in our foxholes and turn the United States into a police state. This will not be popular, but it is needed.

I thank you for your time, your attention, and your courage.

Never be the same....

[linuxrunner]

Nothing will be the same again... Ever. This is truly a sad day. I'm not a religous man, but praying may be a good thing right now. I feel for those who may have lost loved ones... and don't know. I also feel for those who do. May mercy come swiftly for the perpetrators.... No act of terrorism on the US will be tolerated.

Linuxrunner

Re:Unlikelyhood of sucessful simultaneous hijackin

[mpe]

Do you know the kind of security surrounding civil aviation?? I was a former airline employee...I have seen firsthand the security at our airports.

There certainly are cases of airline employees crashing planes also the attempt to destroy Federal Express by a disruntaled employee.

Where to DONATE BLOOD in the NY or NJ area

[Glog]

People will die without it - here is information on where to donate:

http://www.nybloodcenter.org/

Even if you don't live in the NY or NJ area any sort of blood donation is needed! There are huge lines today at Red Cross but blood will be needed in the coming days as well.

Americans? No way, man

[ColGraff]

I doubt even McVeigh would have done something THIS evil - compared to this, he was a rank amateur. No way an American would even think of this. More importantly, wouldn't it be sort of hard to hide all the planning and organization elements in the USA?

Re:minor update

[mpe]

although the us canadian border was closed it has been opened up again...

How easily can the US/Canadian border be closed, considering it's length and the most of it is a line of latitude, rather than following any geographic feature.

Machiavelli would agree with you

[ColGraff]

He said, in essence, that while nonviolence is preferable in theory, when violence is neccessary it should be applied until your enemy is completely and utterly destroyed. That way, he can't see vengeance upon you.

I don't want a war, but if we have to have one, let's win it. No mercy, no pulling back, no amnesty. We go into whatever the country is that sponsored this (if there is one), we destroy the military structure completely, and we occupy the country indefinatly. Everyone involved in today's atrocity, we kill. Let's not indulge in Gulf War type half-measures.

We can never let this happen again. The best way to prevent it, as others have already pointed out, is to kill those with the desire and means to do such things. Worry about morality later - our nation's safety and security comes first.

Dangerous Ideas

[virg_mattes]

> What works in war is to wage war.

Agreed. Do not, however, interpret this to mean that I agree with your assessment that this was an act of war. I do not. See below.

> Anyone who feels that this attack is short of war is a fool.

Your opinion of what war and terrorism are is not even supported by terrorists, and your assessment that I'm a fool because I disagree with you is unfounded.

> It is now time to stop the practice of government sponsored terrorism.

You're treading on awesomely thin ice here if you're American. For example, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan a while back, purportedly to counter terrorist attacks. A group named the Taliban (sound familiar?) sprang up to counter the invasion. The U.S. sent aids, guns and money to them, purportedly to stop the spread of communism. The caves and bunkers in Afghanistan that protected the rebels from carpet bombing (and, more recently, our cruise missiles) were built by Americans, for crying out loud. Guess how the Taliban fought the Russians? That's right, hit-and-run raids (with intelligance fed to them from U.S. sources) and bombings, including suicide bombings against buildings in cities thought to hold Russian military officials, including a hotel at one point. Please note that none of this is speculation, and is documented in government files (that are available under the FOIA). We were quite proud of our efforts to stem the Red tide then. Now, what was that you said about government-sponsored terrorism?

> Perhaps you will mail some flowers to the Taliban in hopes
> that they will see the world your way!

Or maybe the flowers will remind them where they got their seed money. See above.

> The US has tried many things to answer terrorism. It is time
> to give up on the judicial approach and use more effective assets and
> send a stronger message.

We tried that, too. Remember a backwater country called Vietnam? We sent massive military forces to the country, only to find that massive military might doesn't work very well against terrorism. Take another try.

> ...the Afghans, for example, have already demonstrated their
> knowledge of "plausable deniability"...

So have we. Review the Iran/Contra scandal documents and Oliver North's (and Ronald Reagan's) testimony.

> With the growing sophistication of terror devices, and the
> mounting death toll, the free nations of the world must treat
> sponsorship of terrorism as equivalent to acts of war.

They already do, which is a large part of the problem.

> The US probably lost more citizens in this attack than in the
> Pearl Harbor attack, and these citizens were civilians of a free and
> generous society.

How very patriotic, and how irrelevant. Does it matter how many people died? As a case in point, many fewer people died in the Murrah building's destruction than today, but that loss is just as tragic as this. This statement serves only to pump up the rage so that it interferes with resolution of the issue, and makes us all want to go out and do rash things that won't help in the end.

> We will respond.

As we should. The question remains how we respond.

> We can only hope that those other free countries, such as France and
> Germany, which have been happy to trade with terrorist countries, will join us.

Again, you need to consider what your own country is doing before you accuse others. See above.

I don't wish to imply that I'm unaffected by these events. In fact, I'm outraged and spitting bile at this point. But I must temper that anger with two thoughts: first, what was it that got us here to begin with, and second, what action will minimize the likelihood that we'll be here again? The "kill 'em all" attitude doesn't seem to fit the second part very well, so I'm left to consider what does.

Virg

not likely

[Danse]

Any terrorist group that can pull off an attack like this probably has people clamoring to join up. The suicide hijackers will be martyrs to the cause and an inspiration to the other memebers of the organization. This will likely cause the ranks of the organization to swell in the near future.

Re:Oh christ, the politics already...

[mpe]

The fact that the enemies are fanatics making suicide attacks does not make the American political system right.

Nearly 60 years ago the people making suicide attacks against the US were Japanese, certainly not Arabs. Anyway do you think the US military would never enguage in suicide missions...

More info and pics from an eyewitness

[Legion303]

(Not me):

http://spies.com/~gus/ran/body.htm

-Legion

Echelon

[onyxruby]

Please, tell me, do people here still believe in Echelon? If this isn't overwhelming evidence that Echelon is a paranoids pipe dream, I don't know what is.

This is where investigative work comes in

[ColGraff]

I agree killing people for the actions of others is wrong, so we need to find out who did the thing. And once we do, we need to kill them. Not talk with them - this was a premeditated attack on innocent, unarmed civilians. No, we kill them as quickly as possible. If they are just terrorists, then we are avenged and can stop. If the perpetrators were a nation-state, we must occupy that country to make sure they never do this again. Will that be bloody? Yes, in all liklihood. But we need to protect ourselves - this means we need to take away the ability of others to launch this sort of attack.

Re:Just be sure who you're blaming...

[mpe]

Just how many people does it take to hijack a plane? 2? 3? Certainly not more than that. So we have maybe 12 people who downed 4 planes today.

Though it would help if they had support from airport/airline employees. Even then this could be under 20 people. Indeed it may only take one person actually on each plane.

False alarm

[Animats]

The CBC website is now reporting this was a mistake. The airliners were off course and low on fuel due to being diverted from closed airports.

David Brin's transparent society

[TheFrood]

David Brin, the science-fiction author, has long been a proponent of a transparent society, i.e., ubiquitous surveillance in public areas, with public access to all cameras. Law enforcement officials can watch everything you do out of doors, but you can also watch _them_. So the surveillance helps the police do their job, while at the same time providing a check against abuse of their power.

Brin's rationale is that at some point the police/spooks/Bill Gates will have the ability to monitor everything that goes on in public whether we like it or not. Privacy is a lost cause, so let's not worry about it, but rather focus on keeping our freedom.

Events this morning have made me start to think that this is the way to go.

TheFrood

Better than the alternatives.

[Jason Earl]

The U.S. certainly isn't perfect, but it is far better than any of the alternatives that this world has ever seen. Sure, our economic policies don't always work 100% effectively, but the U.S. subjugation, as you term it, has been a lot more gentle than any other regime in the history of the world. We even let you keep your beliefs and as much as your culture as you can hang onto in the onslaught of McDonalds and Hollywood. Heck, we even let other countries beat us at the economic game. U.S. influence might be great, but so is the influence of several of our former enemies (Japan and Germany).

As for those mothers in Iraq. It's not our fault that they live in a country lead by a madman. If the U.S. ignored Iraq, and let it's leaders do what they wanted (and attack whomever they pleased) things would only get worse for the normal Iraqi citizen. Don't throw that problem at the feet of the U.S. Sure, we are meddlers, and we drive a hard bargain for our aid, but would you honestly rather have a Middle East dominated by Iraqi warlords?

I agree with your assessment that justice and freedom need to be spread. I would also add education to that mix, however. Educated citizenry will generally choose justice and freedom for themselves, and if they don't, well, there is little that can be done for them. Education is certainly the only viable way to get rid of hate and prejudice (and even that fails to work very well sometimes).

Pentagon denied rumor F16 shot down PA plane

[sulli]

please update.

Thank you

[ColGraff]

I hope more Canadians feel the same as you.

Re:What did he say after killing 125,000 at Hirosh

[uebernewby]

Well, in order to actually beat Japan soundly, win the war, and stop the Pacific bickering over land issues, it was estimated it would take over 200,000 US soldiers (mostly under the age of 25) to take Japan by conventional methods. Dropping two nukes (it would have only been one if their leader hadn't been so stubborn) was more humane.

Not quite ... you're more or less right about the *first* bomb. That was dropped to give the Japanese that last push towards surrendering. The *second* bomb, however, wasn't necessary - the Japanese had seen what damage one lousy American bomb was capable of, and were about to surrender. The reason the americans decided to drop it anyway was because this bomb was using a different technique, and they wanted to see what this technique was capable of. Talk about cynical ...

Terrorists Win

[RedSynapse]

Jane's Information Group has an article examining which groups would have the resources and inclination to carry out the attacks today here

Race and religion is not the enemy, fundamentalism is the enemy. Only when one believes in something so strongly that there is no longer room for reason are acts like these possible. The Inquisition, the Holocaust, and the recent actions of the taliban come to mind.

On another note, it seems to me that if the cockpits of the airplanes that had been hijacked had been sealed off, there would be many many fewer dead. The US has Tomahawks, the terrorists have 747s. Some people from the airlines, or airport security should go to jail, if multiple planes can be hijacked at the same time something is very wrong . Things will have to change, "just" blowing up a airliner is a far better thing than ramming the plane into a building full of 25,000 people.

Also, I now have a much less harsh attitude towards "privacy invading" measures such as face recognition software. In fact I want my privacy invaded a whole lot more especially when I'm getting on a plane.

Maybe the one good thing about this is that if Bin Laden is to blame, the US will certainly cease its support of the taliban, and will almost certainly take punitive measures. Of course whether such measures will hurt the taliban, or just the innocent people of Afghanistan remains to be seen. If of course it was bin laden.

Finally, yes, give blood, as so many others have today.

Blood Collection For USA In Israel

[SailorBob]

Israel Radio announced this evening that Magen David Adom is opening its blood collection centers in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa and Tel Hashomer at midnight to collect blood that will be flown to the United States in the morning.

There is a national call for everyone having type "O" blood to contribute to the effort.

Israel Radio Military correspondent Carmela Menashe reported that Israel is sending its IDF emergency evacuation team to the United States and that the Israeli flag will fly at half mast.

Yah, this would jive

[ColGraff]

Did you see the TV coverage? The attacks blasted truly massive amounts of smoke and dust into the air - I'm not surprised it showed up on the Doppler.

Re:Peace ?

[uebernewby]

To say that it is unfair to defend a belief system is to say that there is no point in having beliefs. If you owned a piece of land and someone was forcefully threatening to take that land away you would do everything in your means to keep that land. Even if it means a call to arms.

But this isn't about defending beliefs, the WTC and the Pentagon weren't bombed because the terrorists who did it are opposed to democracy or capitalism ... the reason the US has been targeted is that it is (perceived to be) supportive of Israel/not doing enough to solve the Middle East crisis. Through some twists of logic "American government doesn't tell Israel to stop gunning down our kids" (which they do to Palestinian kids - not that they don't have a reason to do so, I suppose) becomes "all Americans are evil - let's destroy them".

You can't seriously claim that "lackadaisical treatment of the Middle East problem" is a belief which it is your right to defend ...
Of course I'm not saying flying an airplane into a building is a good thing to do, and I do think the US would be justified in retaliating for this attack, but I hope today's attack also serves as a wake up call to the Bush gov't to perform a more active role in finding a solution for the Middle East problem.

Yes, I do think this bombing has something to do with the Middle East - only a religious fanatic who's into suicide bombing would be disrespectful enough of human life to wilfully murder 266 airplane passengers *and* thousands of WTC-dwellers. You could argue that Timothey McVeigh killed a fair number of people as well, but he was acting on his own, This attack was coordinated in such a way that it suggests a well organized group being responsible for it. The only well-organized groups who are capable of such an attack *and* who have such disrespect human life are fundamentalists.

Inadequate my ass

[cybercuzco]

Fire suppression systems are designed specifically to prevent a small to medium size fire from becoming a large fire. i dont care what kind of system you are talking about, from a fire extinguisher to a halon system, you put out fires when theyre small with fire suppression systems. If they get big, thats why we have fire departments. Regardless YOU CANT PUT OUT A JET FUEL FIRE WITH WATER! Putting water on a jet fuel fire is like putting water on a grease fire, you just spread it around, and dont put it out. The WTC had a sprinkler system im sure, and im sure they also had tanks of water on the roof in case the mains werent working for some reason. But when the plane went through each building, it most likely shattered the mains leading to the roof and all the fire suppression equipment. Even if the mains had remained intact, you couldnt have put out the jet fuel with the water. Granted, after the jet fuel burns out, you might have done it, but by that time, you have an immense fire over several floors, and you cant put it out with simple sprinklers, even if you had the water, theres just too much heat. There is no way, short of making the building half out of ice, and half out of steel, that you could have prevented the collapse after the fire started with so much jet fuel.

Re:Hiroshima, Nagasaki

[AxelBoldt]

... and as long as you don't care being prosecuted as a war criminal afterwards.

Re:What did he say after killing 125,000 at Hirosh

[Syberghost]

The *second* bomb, however, wasn't necessary - the Japanese had seen what damage one lousy American bomb was capable of, and were about to surrender.

No, actually, they thought we had conventionally firebombed Hiroshima, and couldn't possibly do it again quickly without massive preparation. They simply didn't believe it, until we did it again.

Re:Airlines chosen

[AxelBoldt]

They will not be able to pop their little fucking heads up to talk about their "message" anymore without fear of getting immediately capped.

You still think like somebody who fears to die. They don't. They *want* to die for what they believe in.

What can I do?

[scrytch]

Don't know if this will get past the noise floor (one time I am glad to have the 2 threshold), since I really want an answer to that question. I'm unemployed, broke, can't give blood, unexperienced volunteers aren't likely going to be sent there anyway ...

After Pearl Harbor, Americans lined up by the thousands outside recruitment offices to go off and fight. The enemies were clear, Germany, Italy, and most of all Japan. So even if we nail down exactly who did it (it's hard to plan something of this without pointing back to yourself, this was a suicide mission for the planners too) what the hell can I do? Now what?

Re:What can I do?

[fishbowl]

If you go and enlist NOW, you're hurting more than helping! That's 3 meals a day and housing that needs to go to someone on active duty, and that's only the start. Most jobs in the military are occupied already by volunteers. Don't go half cocked and join the army
now! People did that after we started "liberating Kuwait", and many regretted it (and kept regretting it for the years they had to spend in the military.)

All those who are worried about the draft, again, the armed forces aren't equipped to deal with large numbers of people who don't want to be there.

Re:Overview

[m2]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating war. I'm advocating a counter-terrorist strike or twenty, targeted at known terrorist groups, and removing just those people, with as much care and good planning as they showed this morning.

There's something fundamentally wrong with this line of reasoning, which is mostly what prompted me to write the message at the head of this thread. You are advocating a counter strike. Let's assume you are successful and do actually cause some damage to these groups? Do you think they'll stand there a do nothing about it? One of the things today's attack proved is that this is doable. These people are hoping the U.S.A. counter strikes. This is not war against a country. There's no country to declare war to (at least not atm, but I don't think this will change). This is terrorism. You can only target groups, but that's the problem. It's not like you bomb a building and that's it. To put this in terms people in this group can understand, it's just like MS trying to attack Linux. They can't because there's no single entity where your attack can be directed to. Think about what the U.S.A. did in Panama, and notice there are clear differences. You could break into some guy's house and bring him to the U.S.A. and prosecute and excecute him there, but you still have a group.

You also have to notice something else: the purpose of the attack is to enrage, to create chaos, to make the people claim for revenge. This is not a military installation that was attacked, that probably would have failed. The target was a civilian target because that stood a chance of success. This attack is bait. Don't swallow it.

And you implicitely noted something else: this is the first time is a lot of years that war has been brought to U.S.A.'s backyard, which is perhaps the reason why people in other parts of the world see it differently: they still remember having war on their backyards.

Shit. Kabul, Afghanistan, seems to be under missile attack.

It is so very cowardly...

[ChaoticCoyote]

...to kill innocent people anonymously. A coward skulks about, refusing to take responsibility for their actions. These fools disn't have the courage to face real soldiers in real combat... no, they killed unarmed civilians at their workplace.

All terrorists are cowards, be they working for the Earth Liberation Front or Bin Ladan.

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[sheetsda]

We find the black boxes, the voice recorders

You're kidding yourself if you think those things weren't completely vaporized in the two WTC planes, possibly the others as well. Also, CNN claims to have reliable information which links Bin Laden to the planes. The government has known for years that Afghanistan(sp?) is harboring Bin Laden, their spokespeople have openly supported him, so it only stands to reason that they're all on the same side. Obviously, it's arguable if we wiped that country off the face of the earth we'd be killing people who agreed with our point of view, my counter-argument to you is that there were likely people who agreed with the muslim fundamentalist points of view who were killed in these incidents, other than the perpetrators.

Sadly, there are people who reason and humanity will not reach, some of which have a considerable amount of power, such as Bin Laden. The only solution is to make an example of these people in hopes of discouraging similar actions. I agree that violence is always the worst option, but sometimes it's the only option.

Re:What did he say after killing 125,000 at Hirosh

[kaisyain]

It may have been estimated but the US Chiefs of Staff didn't believe that estimate. They estimated 20,000-40,000 US casualties from an invasion of mainland Japan.

Try reading "A Postwar Myth: 500,000 U.S. Lives Saved" by Barton Bernstein before you continue to spread your sadly dated misinformation.

Re:Misinformation

[Wonko42]

I am no more qualified to inform you of the events taking place in New York and Washington, D.C. than CmdrTaco or Hemos are. I recommend you watch NBC or CBS; I've been following their coverage throughout the day and have found them to have what seems to be the most accurate and up-to-date information.

Re:Thats the most stupid and dangerous idea today

[mesocyclone]

Because we have a legal process here that is founded on our written constitution, the power of the government to stop such organizations as NORAID is limited. You can be sure that few politicians support the funding of the IRA. Too many Americans are uninformed about the true use of the funds they donate. It is also true that some of the groups that fund terror against Americans get funding in the US. We are not funding a war against you any more than we are funding a war aginst us!

There is no comparison between a free society where bad guys raise money and government sponsored terrorism.

Re:ALL YOUR WTC ARE BELONG TO US

[Trepidity]

Oh but I disagree - this is precisely what /. was made for. That and l33t Linux users!

Re:What did he say after killing 125,000 at Hirosh

[Trepidity]

He said nothing, because he did not bomb Hiroshima. He died several months before the bombing.

Re:New perspective

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

the real situation is much more complex than what the US gov gives lip service to.the real situation is much more complex than what the US gov gives lip service to.

I have no trouble believing this. However, I reiterate the point that the US Government was hurt far less than a whole bunch of comparatively innocent office workers who, as I pointed out, don't generally take to the streets in celebration when Israel does something violent to Palestinians.

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[mandolin]

You're kidding yourself if you think those things weren't completely vaporized in the two WTC planes, possibly the others as well.

You sure? I mean these things are designed to survive .. fiery plane crashes, are they not?

Now of course it might be months before they're *found*...

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[sheetsda]

The explosions destroyed steel beams probably several inches think, blew through countless feet of concrete, and in addition was subjected to the sudden stop of most plane crashes. They are designed to survive crashes, but they can only be protected so far. In a significant number of normal plane crashes (ones that don't explode and don't fall quite a distance after said explosion) the boxes do not survive or are never recovered. They are stored in the tail of the plane because statistically that is the section of the plane most likely to survive, but everything I've heard says that the planes were completely shattered into small pieces. I give it 10,000 to 1 odds that they'll never find them.

Appeasement

[chazR]

Appeasement NEVER works

Unfortunately, you are completely right. History bears you out *without exception*.

"Jaw, jaw is better than War, war". Yup. True. Except it *doesn't fucking work*".

Ultimately, you have to blow the dust off your old copy of von Clausewitz "On War", and do something nasty. Accept that a lot of your people will die. Have a clear objective. Make use of everything you have. And remember your ancient history.

After the third war, no trace of Great Carthage remained

Re:Thats the most stupid and dangerous idea today

[mesocyclone]

I'm sorry but you are also misconstruing things. I suspect some politicians (Ted Kennedy for example) want to look the other way, but the US government in general certainly is against the IRA and does not approve of the funding.

Please recognize the distinction: we do not support terrorists. We cannot, however, prevent our people from doing so unless certain legal findings have been made... and those people can sue in court to make sure this isn't done arbitrarily.

The US has tried to stop the IRA, we share critical intelligence with Britain.

We have just taken a monstrous attack, and I am offended that you can equate this to the silliness of those misguided americans who send money to causes they don't understand. But to imply that the US gave tacit approval to the Provos is a slur on the US government and is simply not true.

I wish you all well America, I feel for you.

[tedsvmax]

I am a Canadian in Toronto and I feel so much anger for the people who did this.
I feel great sorrow also for the victims and families.
I wish their was something I could say that would make it better, but everyone I know also feels the same as I here in Canada.
I hope these terrorists get what they got coming to them!!
Ted

A Tribute To Him Is ...

[Poligraf]

... his work. I can bet, Akamai's servers played a significant role in everybody being able to read news on the Internet.

reply

[Anonymous Coward]

I may be anonymous, but i am not a coward!
What has occured is an attack against humanity.
no-one, no-one has a right to sponsor such an act. This is not an act against america, this is an act against humanity. I echo previous responses: give blood this is the greatest reponse that an individual can make. By giving blood, we show these scum that humanity stands against such acts, that regardless of who it is that has suffered, there is no justification for such an act of unmitigated BASTARDRY!
these terrorists have spent some time sorting out their actions.
They knew what they were doing. They have no excuse for their actions. I'm not the greatest fan of the US, but nothing deserves this kind of response. By giving blood you are making a supremely important statement. I support the people that suffered this indiscriminate attack.
I support the human beings that were innocently caught up in a blatantly political action. These people may deserve to lose their BMW's, but not their lives
Give Blood, that is the greatest individual humanitarian statement you can make to show your condemnation of this inhuman action!!!

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[zaius]

Perhaps we won't be able to find the ones from the planes that hit the WTC, but we should be able to get the pentagon and at least the Penn. recorders.

Re:But it *doesn't* solve things

[Malcontent]

" the people who live there do not want peace. They want to kill each other, and we - as a nation - are hated and called the "Great Satan" because we would (admittedly for very selfish reasons) like to see people not killing each other."

I agree that people in the middle east want to kill each other. But I disagree that we are hated because want to stop the killing. We are hated because if it wasn't for us Israel could not continue killing palestenians. We fund Israel, we make bombs and give them to israel, we make planes and give them to israel, we make guns and give them to israel, we gather intelligence and give it to israel. We support israel 100 percent in whatever act of ongoing genocide they are undertaking. All we have to do is to say "stop it or else the funding gets cut off" and israel would behave.

In short we are hated because we have taken one side of this conflict. As a result of that the ratio of dead palestenians to dead israelis is about 5 to 1. If Americans acted as an honest broker and held both sides responsible for their actions it would not be hated anymore.

Re:Russian News Gets it Wrong?

[dbirchall]

Oy. 2 hit WTC, yes. 1 hit Pentagon. Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh and near Camp David were all the 4th plane, which had been rumored to be shot down, but US says they haven't shot down anybody. And nothing crashed at DCA - the one that hit the Pentagon had taken off from there.

I thought that I would be less angry by now...

[errxn]

...but after reading some of the moronic posts here on /., it's just gotten worse. I can live with the ones that are just obvious childish trolls, but I CAN NOT BELIEVE:

A) the Americans who are sitting in front of their screens, enjoying the freedoms that they have long ago taken for granted in this country, and have the audacity to say that we are to blame for this attack, or that we had it coming, or that our way of life is "oppressive" and "evil". It is exactly this sort of thought that has led to the weakening of this country over the last eight years, and allowed this tragedy to happen.

B) those Europeans (not all who have posted here, but some) who are sitting in front of their screens, enjoying the freedoms that they have only because America came to their rescue back in WWII, and have the audacity to mock our country and what it stands for after this attack. You'd think that they'd be more understanding, given the incidents of terrorism that happen in their own countries.

C) those who wasted no time in blithely blaming President Bush for this incident because he is an "evil" Republican. How insane. If anyone or anything is to blame for this, it is the Clinton Administration. Yes, I know that you have been avoiding the truth, but it was because of the Clinton Administration that the military and intelligence agencies in this country were emasculated to the point of ineffectiveness. It was the Clinton Administration that sat idly by while terrorists such as Osama Bin-Laden, who is overwhelmingly likely to have perpetrated this incident, ran free with little more than a slap on the wrist. It was the Clinton Administration who presided over the transformation of Political Correctness from the exception to the rule in this country and effectively neutered our moral resolve. IMHO, this set of circumstances, which led to this terrorist attack, is the TRUE LEGACY of the Clinton Administration. So, sure, just keep on blaming Bush to your little heart's content, but if you do, you will know that you are in denial of the truth.

I kept reading this morning about how this tragedy was going to unite this country and strengthen its resolve, but after reading the posts on /., and responding in blood-red anger like so many others, I'm not sure that we won't be torn further apart than ever. It can only be a matter of time before we start turning this anger on ourselves.

Now that I've spilled my guts for the last time today, I'm going to stay away from /. for a while, and all other forums, until I can regain some semblance of sanity and composure. May I suggest that others who feel this rage and anger do the same.

For the record.

[Faux_Pseudo]

if you click on the hof [hall of fame] for the top 10 posted to stories on slashdot this is now number one by a margin of 200 votes.

Also scroll down the main page and note that the post about linus speeking only got 100 posts and a story about MS ranked in at 300 posts. Current number of posts thus far on this submission is 2200. Not encluding the two others related submissions.

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[cybrpnk]

Thanks for agreeing with my original post! I was starting to wonder if anybody sees it this way. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.

Re:Correcting the Record re Limbaugh

[Malcontent]

" Whether he truly called from bombing of "whoever is responsible" -- not an unsurprising, or particularly conservative, response -- he did, quite early on, start telling his listeners that his "contacts", or experts who he trusted, were telling him the culprits were likely not outside the USA"

Regardless. When the discussion was about killing iraqi civillians he was all for it. When the discussion was about US civilans he was against it. Neither the citizens of Iraq nor the citizens of michigan were responsible for that attack and he know that. Even if he bomber turned out to be an arab he knew the poor people struggling to stay alive in iraq had nothing to do with it. Despite this knowledge he was calling for mass murder of civilians.

Re:I hope...

[J'raxis]

American anti-terrorism laws (passed after the first WTC bombing or Oklahoma City; not sure) already allow for indefinite detention of suspects. And, if you want to take away someones fifth-amendment rights, all you have to do is require them to testify before Congress for some reason instead of in Court. The fifth amendment applies to judicial trials, not legislative hearings.

Im sure things like requiring encryption public-key escrow or the outlawing of anonymous (FreeNet) and pseudonymous (Usenet, IRC) protocols will come quite quickly now.

And, just to give the conspiracy nuts something to chew on: The government has always been out to opress online expression, it appears. Just when it seems there is mounting backlash against the recent intellectual-property excuses (DMCA), isnt it convenient that the government can once again roll out the old national security issue?

Why NOT to go to war

[KurdtX]

Allow me to poke some holes real quick like...
Who are you "going to war" with?
Since it's likely a terrorist organization, who are going to attack? OBL has been the FBI's PE#1 for a ton of years, you don't think they've been trying to kill him in that time?
What good has come from war? Have you ever talked with anyone who's fough in one?

Now for the reasons to just sit tight (and I'm an American who has always lived here, I just don't own a gun)
This is retaliation, I'm sure you've heard it from other posters, so i won't get into it.
Retaliation lowers us to their level.
No other country messes with (spies on) us nearly as much as we mess with (spy on) other countries. You'd be pretty pissed if some other country took out Bush and his cabinet because the election didn't come out in their favor
And then there are the conspiracy theories, which make a sick sort of sense, even if they are only coincidences; why would you possibly give your support to such efforts?

My monologue...
Certainly it is more a testament to the greatness of our nation that we are as angry and upset by this as we are purely through the rarity of such a tradgedy than anything else I can think of. Of all the civilized nations of the world (read: the ones who didn't celebrate the disaster), I would say none is as prominent as ours on the world stage. I would also say that the US security and defense is certainly the best in the world, particularly in light of the freedom we are allowed (blame this freedom if you need something to blame for the attacks) and the physical expanse and variety of the people of the US. No, I feel the best way for us to "strike back" is to show our compassion for all man, and that our love for our nation is too strong to be broken by such fear tactics. Okay, that was sappy, but you get the idea.

And about that Roosevelt quote... it made sense because Japan was bent on destroying us, not scaring us. Do you like to watch scary movies?

In other news....

[seanmeister]

This thread has toppled The Star Fraction as the top most active post ever on Slashdot! Huzzah!

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[JWhitlock]

Commercial airliners are difficult beasts to pilot. They needed training.

BS. I work in aircraft simulation, and I "flew" a plane the first time I sat behind the controls.

The hard part is starting the engines, the flight check off, programming the nav computer, talking to the tower, and knowing when to abort a takeoff. Landing is also hard. Once you are in the air, near cruising altitude, it's damn easy - the nav computer does most of the flying, and even if you ignore the tower, there are now on-board computers that warn you if you are too close to another aircraft.

No, if you kill or disable the pilot, even you can jump into that pilot seat, give the yoke a shake to disengage the flight computer, and point that plane where you want. If you don't know how to work the trim, you may have to flight the aero dynamics, but you could certainly target the plane. Hell, if you can work the radio enough to get in touch with the tower, you might even be able to land it.

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[JWhitlock]

WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.

War? Against who?

Anyone?

I know we all have guesses, but do we really know?

We have a short list - Bin Laudin (gonna have to learn how to spell that), Iran, Iraq, maybe Syria, probably not Libya, Cuba, Serbia, or a domestic group. Probably not. Should we bomb the hell out of them, because they are on the short list? For every father will kill, we'll create another supporter for terrorism. For every child, two or three. Nice strategy.

What if the culprit flies to France, then turns himself in? What if the French refuse to turn him/them over until we agree to remove the death penalty from the possible punishments? Do we bomb France?

What if all those involved were part of the plan, and buried with their victims? What then?

Someone just punched us in the nose in the dark. We should stop the bleeding, and wait until morning to figure out who it is.

Re:I hope...

[Golias]

So, you're saying you'd like these people dead?

No.

Don't put words into other people's mouths, and then attack them for things they didn't say, anonymous coward asshole.

Re:Holding an entire country responsible is insane

[flatrock]

GWB's statement and others voiced in this forum about blaming an entire country for one (or a few) individuals' acts are crazy and send the wrong signals to the rest of the world.

If the government of that country is harboring and supporting these terrorists, then that government must be held accountable. Unfortunately, citizens often pay the price for the actions of their government. If the govenment isn't acting in their best interests, then they need to put in place a new govenment that will better represent them. If there is a way to directly get at the people who are responsible for these acts, including those who harbor and support them, then that is the best solution. If however, we can't do that then the people of that nation will likely suffer through economic sanctions and possibly even war. If the facts lead us to Afganistan supporting these terrorist acts, then we will likely be imposing sanction and possibly supporting the rebels that are carying on a revolutionary war there. I don't know much about those rebels, and it is possible that we really don't want them in power either. In any case, the United States needs to take action to prevent this from happening again. We must send a message to those nations who make public announcement that they don't support such actions, but still harbor these people and let them operate and even train terrorists within their borders.

Perspective and Wording

[virg_mattes]

> I agree with the rest of your response, but I don't think it's right
> to dismiss whoever did this as insane because that simply perpetuates
> the idea that these people are impossible to reason with, which is not true.

I agree, but although I tend to think of fanaticism as a type of insanity, it's not, in the official sense. However, I have found that sectarians (and fanatics, by extension) are indeed very difficult to reason with.

Virg

Re:Fort Drum Army Base

[Russ Nelson]

Um ... Rte 29 *is* a major road in this part of the state. If you want to go to Utica from Northern New York, Rte 29 is the best way to go. Remember, Northern New York is the only part of New York State with no four-lane highway.
-russ

A Response

[virg_mattes]

I have an rebuttal to your post, but I can't get it past the content filter at work (triggered by "terrorism/anarchy terms", imagine!). Review your posts tonight for my reply.

Virg

Re:Correcting the Record re Limbaugh

[Malcontent]

I could not prove references I don't have transcripts. I heard him with my own ears. he called for anhilating an entire country.

" I'm also curious -- do you hold Limbaugh to be more evil for supposedly calling for the killing of innocent civilians, or Clinton and Reno more evil for actually killing them while undertaking actions that were neither necessary nor constitutionally valid?"

Every president in recent history has taken upon himself to kill civilians at the earliest opportunity. We americans enjoy nothing more then seeing the blood of brown and black people spilled .Unfortunately like a mass murderer we start jonesing for some fresh meat every five to eight years. Clinton was not immune to this bloodlust but at least his number don't add up nearly as much as Bush SR or Reagan. So far Bush Sr. I think still has the lead with over a hundred thousand iraqis killed and millions suffering daily due to sanctions. I don't know if the jr Bush will try to beat his dads numbers but I suspect he will. Think really really hard now. When was the last time ten years passed without an american army killing people someplace in the world? Can you think of it? Now answer this question. When was the last time America was actually under attack by a foreign nation?

BTW I am not counting people killed by proxy where we arm a country (or some people), train them, fund them, and then help them kill lots and lots of people (israel for example or in most of the south americas).

So to answer your question. No I don't hold rush more evil but I do hold him plenty evil. He is an american and like all americans he too likes to see people being killed all over the world. He does not have the power to actually kill so like most americans he chooses to chant at the sidelines urging the leaders to kill. He just happens to have a bigger megaphone then most americans that's all. I strongly believe however that if he was ever elected he would probably kill more people then all of the rest of the recent presidents. Not only that but I don't think he would stop at our borders he would turn against the dark people inside the borders too.

Re:But it *doesn't* solve things

[hearingaid]

as it turns out, of course, I'm right.

it doesn't take a trained pilot to keep a plane in the air. it does take a trained pilot to cause the plane to turn into a missile.

and as it turns out, among the terrorists were several trained pilots: all of whom apparently received their training in the USA, and were on a list of known terrorists.

this is a failure of intelligence at the highest level.