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GPS Meets PCS
The Donald writes: "According to an article at News.com, Sprint PCS will be starting to implement E911 calls in Rhode Island sometime in October. The FCC required that all cell phone providers have an improved E911 system in place by October first. This is the first step in making the E911 a reality, with Sprint being the first major company to actually put a phone on the market that will work with E911; instead of just filing papers with the FCC saying the implementation is just to hard. The Samsung N300 phone will use GPS to track the people down. I like the idea, I just hope the phone will display the GPS information, and there is a way to opt-out for all of the location based advertisements you will get with your GPS enabled phone."
How about enabling a switch to disable GPS except during 911 calls?
Skivvy Niner? Email me!
HEY! Look left just ONE MORE TIME!
I wonder if the positional info could be used by the owner of the phone for some purpose - maybe tracking a fleet of drivers realtime or coupled with Wireless Web to provide navigation. There are some neat possibilities here that Sprint could capitalize on.
There should also be a way for the user to disable transmission of the GPS information or limit it to 911 calls only.
Too bad this wasn't around when the Soviets has Mir up, then the cosmonaouts could have called 911 when they got in trouble.
Oh yeah, that was all the time.
Please email all complaints to root@127.0.0.1 and the issue will be dealt with in due time.
Seems like a very good idea to implement so that keeping tabs on people is all the more easier for the government; and a feature to ensure that it's turned off? DO you really believe it's off? :)
"True refinement seeks simplicity."
"So, um...like...second post d00dz!!!"
OK, now that I've got that out of the way (and probably pushed myself to 10th post as a result) here's a real comment.
Ads. Ads on the phone that *I* pay for. Quite simply, there won't be any. If any company tries to advertise themselves on my phone for which I pay per-minute charges, they'll find themselves on the ugly end of a lawsuit involving the "junk fax" law and some very bloodthirsty lawyers.
If you want to advertise to my phone, then someone else will be paying my damned monthly charges. Otherwise, beware.
As an aside, I've been around long enough to see that advertisers have pushed the boundaries far enough that the pushing back we see now is an inevitable result of what's been going on for the last two decades. The end result is that we're not going to stand for much in the way of blatant advertising in anything we buy, do, or watch. All that means is that the advertisers will become sneakier.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Perhaps the new Verizon/Disney/AOL/U.S.Justice.Dept will handle the entire issue by adding the fine to your monthly bill!
Keeping
This is an embrace and extend tactic. As soon as we have this feature available for 911 calls, they'll begin using it to track our everyday activities. BIG BROTHER!
Hurry someone hide me. The black helicopters are coming in!
iiieeee!
I was 1.5 blocks from my apartment in Brooklyn when the guy grabbed my left arm and pressed a knife into my ribs.
As I reached into my right back pocket to get my wallet, my arm was pressing against my phone (Sprint PCS). It would have been very easy to activate some sort of panic button.
He only took about $60, but what if I were getting the shit kicked out of me, or raped, or whatever...
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
The example always given for this locater technology is 911 calls. Now, when you are calling 911, you do want them to know your location -- the sooner the better really. And I can see how this could serve a useful purpose. Politicians certainly pushed this application when stating their requirement to cell phone manufacturers.
/. are well aware, is that this is yet another step toward Big Brother. Insert the usual arguments here ["Oh c'mon, stop being so paranoid!" "Yeah, but why give them the power to abuse in the first place?"]. How far will this technology be extended? Will they start to track your location on the highways, to see if you are speeding if you get from location A to location B faster than you ought? If someone corrupt within some government agency decides they don't like you because of your idealogy (whatever it may be), can they start to track your locations at all times?
The downside to this, of course, as we at
I would like this technology if it can be turned off when desired, even if it's only out of principle. I don't like having a choice taken from me, even if it is "for my own good."
________________
Private Essayist
Budget (the rental car company) already implemented that, and they started tacking fines onto invoices.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
Disclaimer: I work for TeleCommunication Systems Inc. - we provide nationwide E-911 service.
During the FCC mandate for Phase I - which most carriers still have not fully deployed was based on cellsite/sector / some other general location. For Phase II E-911 the requirement is a PDE. As there are literally hundreds of ways to get this information (GPS handsets are only one). Under the TCS solution for Phase II we query a "pluggable" PDE for the location information - so the only time that anyone gets your specific location information is only when it is needed (as in during a 911 call). The only real difference with the Sprint solution is that they have brought the PDE functionality in-house.
Just to try to help clarify...
I can tell you as someone who volunteers for both a fire department and an EMS service, how important E911 is. There are very often times where passing moterists will call 911 and report a car fire on the expressway, somewhere around exit 30 eastbound. Now often this is enough information and we can easily respond to the call. However, if they tell us its after exit 31, and it turns out to be before exit 30, then that means we have to continue down the expressway, turn around at the next exit, circle back at least to the exit before the accident, then turn around again and get back on in the right direction. This has just caused a delay in our response by at least a couple of minutes which can often mean the difference between some insulation burning under the hood, or the total loss of a car. On the other hand (EMS side) a five minute delay can mean the difference between saving a life. If someone is involved in an accident and loosing blood quickly, every second counts.
This winter, when coming home from the grocery store, I witnessed someone on a motorcycle take a turn just too sharply. The bike fell over on him and crushed his leg. I called 911 to report the accident on my cellphone (Verizon), and I didn't even have to tell the kind lady where I was, she told me. I went home that night and did some reseach, and found out that they can in fact pinpoint the location of a call. I beleve the company responsible for some of this is Cell-Loc (or something like that).
Hopefully, though, they won't use this to 'magically' close the store early on the day my bill is due, because they traced my calls and found out I am heading their way....
--- At my sig, unleash hell.
There was a case in New Haven, Connecticut, where Acme, was "asked" to refund charges for "speed violations" by the state department of consumer protection. When the GPS system tracked a speed above 90 MPH, ACME charged a cool $150. The Atty. General has asked for refunds. It should be pointed out that ACME does not inform the local police in any way. They just pocket each fine. They now have there own speeding enforcement system, and there own way of cashing in! I thought some smaller towns had a crooked traffic court. This is a private firm, their own judge and jury; where each fine equals more profit. This is just not right.
You know who I think is crazy? All my ex-girlfriends!
The FCC needs to put that into writing -- seriously... companies are like little kids with toys -- unless you tell them to not do something, they'll go ahead and do it; the companies won't care so long as they get their positive reinforcement of profits. It is important to realize this and to push the FCC to make sure that there is no abuse of this system or to stop any more abuse -- they are the ones that must establish controls for this area of the industry.
Karma whorin' since 1999
GPS relies on direct line-of-site to at least three GPS satellites. With many mobile calls eminating from inside a building, line-of-site to satellites will be obstructed and phones will not be able to properly report location.
A more reliable solution should include triangulation from cell phone towers, and then a 'lookup' to provide Global Position coordinates.
With the current anti terrorism mood, I doubt you'll be able to opt out.
In fact, if they weren't going to continuously log your whereabouts before, they probably will now. After all, we're just using this data retroactively to investigate terrorist attacks.
And they probably are only using the data that way. Today. But what about ten years from now when things are different, but they still have much greater access to things they should not? What about when we're no longer in a war against terrorism? Our government agencies don't have a great track record of not abusing power.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
GPS and phones aren't that new.
Garmin had their gps phone a couple of years ago.
When you put in an emergency call it would send
your coordinates along with it.
It was nifty, i almost got one for my birthday.
If you're looking for a link here it is..
http://www.garmin.com/products/navTalk/
Am I the only one to find the idea of mixing a wireless communication device and a very precise position locator undesirable ?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
as it is spelled out in the contract strictly legal. Of course you could always counter sue them.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Requires? Au contraire--nothing will be required. Nothing is EVER so blatant.
They'll just make some really incredibly cool device that will require an implant to use. Whether or not you get it is up to you, but you'll be left out of the 'information age' if you don't.
Then let marketing get 'hold of it, and you'll get the implant voluntarily. That's how things work these days.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
911 service can also be screwed up by PBX systems. I know of several cases where someone called 911 and the ambulance responded to the company headquarters building, where the PBX was located, instead of the building where the emergency occurred.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
"...to opt-out for all of the location based advertisements you will get with your GPS enabled phone"
Just like adds that can now be targeted at you based on where you are (thanks to the GPS enabled phones), there is something else that is also inevitable. Think about "targeted" viruses.
Those "smart" viruses would scare me more than those dull adds.
Karma stuck at 50? Add 2-5 inches.. err.. 2-5x Karmas Count to your pen1es.. err.. Karma all naturally and private
With landline phones, you knew the location immediately. With cell phones the person could be physically anywhere. This is not for your safety and you will not be able to opt-out.
How long before we have an all in one cell phone/pager/pda/gps/etc.? We seem to keep getting a little closer. Phones about a year from now are going to be very interesting.
Cpt_Kirks
Hah, so they'll be able to find us when we need help. Assuming your within 4 feet of a tower and have coverage.
"No Service Try Analog."
and yer right just turn it off when you don't wish to be disturbed. I find the convenience :)
to be very nice and since I keep it off I keep my privacy as well
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
It's somewhat evil, though they run the risk of not getting an insurance payout should something go wrong when they are outside the law.
Of course you don't need a cellphone. You don't need a home phone, a credit card, or a bank account. You don't need a car, electricity or mail-order shopping. There are lots of things you don't have to have...
On the other hand, why can't we have those things along with the guarantee that they won't be used in ways that aren't in our best interests? I dislike the "you don't have to have..." argument, because it seems like over time it pushes you closer and closer to a broken-down cabin in Montana.
What sort of things will we have to give up ten years from now in order to guarantee anonymity and privacy? Will they all be optional, or will life without that set of things become increasingly unpleasant?
On their site, they have a spiel about privacy protection. Here's a quote:
Of course, who knows if this will be respected by the OEM's who implement the snaptrack technology in the phones. There's always the tin-foil-over-the-gps-antenna solution... maybe those people with the tin foil hats are on to something!
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
Why bothering if you get a speeding ticket? :)
Just turn the telephone off and pray for nothing to happen.
Well, to tell you the truth, these types of phones (WAP enabled, GPS enabled, etc.) exist already. They are in very small quantity here in the US, but exist rather abundantly in Japan. The big problem was they didn't catch on as soon as expected here in the states, and companies like AMD and Intel projected that they would, thus the huge crash in the Flash memory business (ramp really hard on super-dense flash, then nobody buys it...). So if you're in Japan, you can get one of these multi-functional super phones. If you're not there, you'll have to wait.
I work at a 911 center, and all advertising concerns aside, I can't wait for this to happen. Most cell-911 callers have absolutely no idea (plus or minus 20 miles) where they are; some don't even know what state they're in! It may help to convince some people to activate the keypad lock on their phones (no "rump dialling"), if they know they can be located. The phone companies just see this as a profit-eater, and want to use every means necessary to delay its implementation.
"Never pet a burning dog."
It was probably bad enough for Sue RandomTeenager that her father could get a hold of her at any time through her metallic pink cell phone, which wasn't so bad with the advent of caller ID.
Now Sue's father knows exactly when she's at J.RandomPlaya's house, or at school for that matter.
I don't think teenagers will carry cell phones any more. Either that or their parents will force them to.
can't sleep. clowns will eat me.
So there would be no need to compare time from point a to b. The sat does that for you. So they coud INSTANTLY know if your're speeding.
Hell, they could even SMS you your ticket. And charge the fine to your phone bill.
:)
OR your wife could use the GPS in your phone to verify that you ARE working late in your office and not someplace else.
OR your boss to check you are sick at home and not at the beach.
That is the best thing about technology, the possibilities to get screwed with it are endless.
---
T
Instead of these other posts that sound "nagging" in nature, I'll give you a real life story as to why these things once existed, and now rarely do.
911 gets a call from a cell phone. They answer, and all they hear is a constant loud roar. After a minute or so of not being able to communicate, the line is dropped. The call comes in again, 5 to 10 minutes later. The same roar, yet no communication with anyone. The 911 operator gets curious, and makes a few calls. The line drops. Yet another call, minutes later, same roar, no human. A unit is deployed to find where this signal is coming from. Strangely enough the signal was traced to the Pontiac Silverdome (in Michigan, over 60,000+ seating).
They traced the signal to a man who was watching a Detroit Lions game. The man was quite large, probably a little too large for the seat that was given to him. Anyways, his cell phone was pressing up against the arm rest of the seat, and pushing the emergency button every time he shifted. This story is true, and there are several of these stories in existance if you take the time to talk to 911 operators.
This is the reason that cell phones now rarely have 911 buttons. This is also the reason most phones will now come with a "keyguard" function that ignores all button pushes until a certain key combination is pressed. It's just not feasible, with how easily buttons can be pushed in a pocket, on a belt, or in a purse. Cell phones may be good for many things, just not this.
To be clear, you don't need GPS technology to track people down using their cell phones. The feds have plenty of ability to do this already. With the help of the FCC and three trucks (or possibly with no trucks and good access to the cell towers), you can be tracked down with great accuracy. That's because your cell phone communicates with a base every few minutes - more often if you're traveling.
Also, though it's not as good as triangulation, tracking you down to a within a relatively small radius is even easier, since your phone is only communicating with one base station at a time.
I imagine that most modern pagers (the ones with a transmitter so you never miss pages) could be used like this too.
Spooky, huh? I've always wondered why E911/GPS couldn't just be implemented by upgrading the cell switches to do auto-triangulation. This gets rid of any GPS antenna issues.
Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
> Your cel phone GPS recorded that you are presently driving 90 in a 55
It's probably more like this:
Your Cell phone GPS has recorded that you are falling off a building at 90 MPH. We have alerted the local law enforcement of your violation of our EULA. Your warranty has been voided. Thank you for using Sprint PCS ~Goodbye
<Dial Tone>
Since GPS is so weak, couldn't a tiny device be constructed that would jam all GPS recievers within say, 3 inches? It could be placed on the phone, and removed if the user ever wished to use 911. There is no way the cellular system could tell the difference between deliberate blocking and being in a GPS "dead zone". GPS doesn't usually work within buildings anyway, so to require GPS would mean that the cellular phone could only be used outside, when there is sattelite coverage. Since this would be stupid, there would be no way the phone companies could do anything about it. The jamming device would have to be extremely short range (again, about 2-3 inches, just enough to disrupt the GPS reciever in the phone) to avoid interfering with other people's phones.
In fact, when I bought a new Sprint PCS phone a year ago, that business went away when I switched to a newer plan.
It's my understanding that common practice in Europe (and Japan?) is no charge for incoming calls. It sure ain't so here. I figure they are going to get a certain price per minute, whether they double the Tx charge or have separate Tx and Rx charges. BUT, again as I understand it, Eurpoean practice is that land lines charge by the minute too, so there's no big discrepancy. In the US, however, local landline calls are unlimited with the basic monthly plan, so a landline call to a cell phone makes it hard to charge the Tx end. There is NO WAY the US regulatory bodies would allow Tx surcharges for landline calls to cellphones. Customers would howl bloody murder!
Infuriate left and right
I work for SignalSoft Corp (http://www.signalsoftcorp.com) on their Wireless 911 product (http://www.signalsoftcorp.com/products/911/911.h
I see good and bad in all this. The good is that the E911 service is probably very useful. And in benign applications, cell phone tracking is not necessarily terrible. The bad is that I'm pretty sure that sooner or later, this technology WILL be abused. We attempt to build safeguards into our software to prevent abuse (http://www.signalsoftcorp.com/newsroom/pressrele
So, here's the scoop. If you are worried that you are worth tracking by powerful government agencies or very, very rich people, do one of two things: A) don't carry a cell phone or, B) take the battery out of your cell phone. B) is not foolproof, but it should be good enough until cell phone manufacturers are required by law to include a small backup battery in the guts of a cell phone large enough to run a GPS receiver. Fortunatly, current batteries are very bulky and expensive, and including a nonremovable secondary one in cell phones big enough to run a GPS receiver is likely to be many years in coming.
Second, push for privacy legislation. I don't know the laws governing cell phone tracking, but I bet they're a lot laxer than they should be. A court order (like a search warrant) should be necessary for any government agency to track the cell phone of any US citizen. If this is currently the case, great. If not... let's get a bill like this passed post-haste.
-Anonymous Coward who doesn't want to lose his job right now.
Cool idea, but anybody who's used a GPS knows they have serious limitations. They don't work indoors or next to buildings. So unless you're standing in a field somewhere, your phone's going to send the cops a bunch of question marks. My GPS, a Garmin Etrack, worked great on my road trip from DC to Florida. But now I live in Singapore and it sits on a shelf. If I'm lost it's a lot easier to ask for directions than to go find a football field and stand in the middle of it waiting for it to find the satellites.
It'll be amusing to spoof your location - either by reprogramming the phone, or feeding it bogus GPS data.
"Hi honey. I'm sorry I'm late. The car died again, so I'm taking the shuttle."
"Ummm, ok dear" (Wife pulls up GPS data on the internet) "huh? HONEY? WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN ORBIT!?!"
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
If you don't want them to track you put the phone in your pocket with the GPS antenna facing your body. That will block most if not all GPS signals preventing the receiver from getting a fix.
In Australia, with GSM, you call 000 or the international GSM emergency number (I forgot it), and it will automatically call the Fire/Ambo/Police number through your network provider (Telstra, Optus, Vodaphone or a reseller), if you have no signal to your own provider it will allow usage of any provider you have signal with for your emergency call. Even without a SIM card inserted in the phone. This is a legal requirement and seems to be a feature built in to GSM itself.
Due to the very precise time division multiplexing used with GSM, the distance you are from the base station you are currently subscribed can be gleaned down to a metre. If they can force your phone to switch to 2 other cells after an emergency call, they could probably pin point you without GPS. With the hidden Network menus in Motorolla StarTac GSM and Nokia phones, you can see how far you are from the base station in metres.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
Freeway-side phones in Californa are even worse. Not only do they put you on hold, I once stopped at one to report an accident i'd witnessed and got a message indicating that the phone had been disconnected.
Glad I bought my nifty new phone before the GPS rollout. My natural paranoia tells me that precise location/movement tracking is *far* too tempting to government just to be used for E911 calls, regardless of claims to the contrary.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Part of the gov't mandate is that the cellphones must be equipped to transmit requested GPS data even if they aren't turned on.
But they're only going to use it to find people making 911 calls. Right. Absolutely.
Kevin Fox
Triangulation is not restricted to Towers A B and C.
They can use any 3 sites they want. NYC hasa couple thousand cell antenna. Pick the closest 50 and your accurate to a centimeter. 3-5 is good enough withint a meter or two...
And if the put out the other guy who set himself on fire first, they'll probably put you out at the same time, as long as they're there.
He's wrong, unless YOUR city has only three towers total :p
http://www.locategsm.com/
Combine GPS with machine speach:
"Turn around, Mr. Jones - RIGHT NOW!!! See that blue door? Go through there. Hey! Did you think I wouldn't notice you walking past the door without going in? GO IN, I SAID!!! Now, now, Mr. Jones, stay away from the garbage bin. Stay away fro... [muffled]"
-jeff
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Here in Finland they have been using the WGS84 system for triangulating your (the GSM phones) location when you call emergency services.
You can also make use of it by sending a textmessage and in about 30 seconds time you'll get a message back giving your coordinates. No more getting lost in the woods!
Here's a message I got back when getting my position at home:
PARAINEN (town)
Skräbböle (part of town)
22.16'55'' E,
60.17'11'' N
No ICBM's please!
Linus
Looking over at Spamhaus, we find that Sprint is working hard to be in the top 3 spam-friendly ISPs, currently hosting 18 sites of known spammers and spam software and ignoring all complaints. If this is what their policy is on personal information, I don't think I want them to know where I am.
Worst first post ever!!! (in the voice of Comic Book Guy).
I work for a major European GSM manufacturer, although not for that department. But I can assure you that you don't need GPS at all to locate a GSM-phone. In Europe, we have been using a similar system for years. It's very simple : the GSM-network knows what cell you're in (what basestation you're connected to), so it's very easy to route your emergency call (112) to the nearest operator. You might be a few miles off in the worst case, but in general it's down to 100 or 200 metres. The police is even using it to track known criminals when they travel from town to town. And it doesn't have to be real-time, the information can later be retrieved from the network databases too.
An article that is very similar to this one, yet a lot more informative is at TacoInspector.com.
If the Samsung SPH-N300 is anything like the SPH-I300 it will be a very cool phone/pda/gps device.
redundant?
*"i think that the article on microsoft being broken up is interesting because i think that microsoft is a really big company that is sometimes unfair in it's business practices. i think that if microsoft were to continue it's practices that would be some kind of anti trust violation... nyaa nyaa nyaa pollyanna moron.:*
the resolution, couldn't this kind of tech have saved lives at the WTC? A lot of us talked about sending voice or data messages to victims cell phones and tracking them that way. But this seems to be a hell of a lot more intuitive (unless it is only accurate to say 300 meters or whatever).
As to the big brother angle; hell that is preposterous. More of the same reactionist claptrap that so inundate these discussions. To think the government would use this lifesaving technology to spy on it's own... why, everyone knows that Americans citizens have had microchips inserted into them under the guise of "polio vaccine" since the 60's.
I am so sick and tired of this shit. Internet on my cell phone. GPS on my cell phone. Ads on my cell phone. The only thing that does NOT work is fucking CALLS on my cell phone. Sprint PCS sucks so bad, HALF of my calls are dropped and by now, they know I am too fucking tired to call those assholes to get a credit for the call. I say, phone companies that cannot maintain a certain level of service need to have their spectrum taken away and given to someone who can. Unfortunately, changing service providers is not an option since it's a company cell and my company does'nt give a rat's ass about that unless customers start bitching.
Some half measures may include: leaving the cell phone home; unplugging the battery; trading out phones with my wife and friends.
Legislation will be difficult here. No one needs a freaking cell phone, much less one with GPS, so complaints will be lost on the general public. Right now, people are willing to give up their credit reports (periodically, not just as a check on purchase!) and social security number to get one of these gadgets. It may be possible to force providers to behave in return for spectrum rights, but we see how well public service laws have done in TV and radio. Elements of the government itself have an interest in tracking people, and they have the upper hand right now. They will be getting a big helping hand from big corps like On Star. What a nightmare.
The reality is that this does not really help people find you when you need it. Think about it. If you are aware of your problem, you can call for help and tell where you are. If you are not and no one knows that your are in trouble, who's going to bother to look for you? Your wife? Hopefully, she knows where you were going and help will be on the way anyway. In practical terms, very little extra security is gained for a massive loss of privacy. I could live with that if I could turn it off.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There are several ways of doing location determination currently in wireless world. As stated in previous posts, cell-based location triangulation is already possible and readily used. There are several catches with cell based determination.
1. some providers didn't bother entering the long/lat into the Mobile Switching Center(MSC), therefore third party E911 companies like SignalSoft have to do it on their end. The government already has access to all that data, so whether you like it or not, uncle sam(big brother) already can pinpoint your location to 1000' give or take a couple yards depending on where you are.
2. Triangulation through MSC usually uses angle of arrival, time of arrival or arc of arrival. All these methods have a high degree of uncertainty due to interference and large structures. Alot of trials have been done with a combination of GPS and network determination. In European trials, the accuracy could get down to 10' for ideal conditions.
In 1999, a new GPS chipset was created(sorry no links to it) which read bounced signals to improve accuracy down to a couple feet. Some companies have already thought about installing MCS in malls for the purpose of wireless advertising. There have been alot of debate about location services and there still isn't any standard. Some networks are ready for GPS deployment in the largest cities, so big brother can already locate you with a high degree accuracy. If you live in the country, GPS deployment probably won't be available for a while. On the otherhand, when it is available in the country, it will be far more accurate than in the city.
In 1999, qualcomm started an initiative to incorporate GPS technology into CDMA chipset. All of the major protocols have similar initiatives. There are no standards on the hardware side about privacy.
The positive side of the whole E911 initiative is people's lives will be saved by this technology. The bad side is it may take a while for the wireless industry to come to a standard for handling gps data. Since 2000, commercial GPS is more accurate than 1000' as stated. For those who don't know GPS technology, it works by reading signals from GPS satellites. All the satellites are set to atomic time. GPS chipsets read the signal from each satellite and triagulates location from a minimum of three datasets. The government decreases the accuracy of GPS by varying the time by some delta. In 2000, the government figured out how to block sensitive locations and reduced the delta. During the gulf war, the military used off the shelf GPS units. To my knowledge, gps accuracy can down to a couple of yards depending on where you are. Even close to large sky scrapers, location determination can get down to a coule yards.
Now THIS is scary. I can see a new market for lead cellphone cases.
Of course, you couldn't receive calls, but you can't with it off, either.
At least off means off, dammit.
Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
If you have a Sprint TP2200 (and probably other touchpoint models), try this:
##33284 (scroll down to SAVE)
select SERVICE SCREEN and hit Scroll all the way down to the bottom of the
debug screen.
Last two lines are labeled LT and LG- those are
the lat/lng of the cell your phone is talking to.
Don't know how accurate it is; the cell my phone
picks up at home is (according to these numbers)
in the middle of the Detroit River.
From their web page:
Friend Find
New, exclusive Personal Navigation Phone feature. Tracks other users of Benefon Esc!, locates them on map (e.g. hiking, yachting), and can even guide you to them (e.g. rock concert, residential address).
Now that's what I call innovation (No I don't work for Benefon, I just like their products). I just hope you can disable the tracking feature
Look, if you make a land-line call, your location is already known to much greater precision than wireless location technology can manage. In small towns, the community often imposes much more probing surveillance than the most paranoid libertarian can imagine, yet this engenders only the occasional complaint. With the advent of facial and other biometric id systems, your position and actions will soon be knowable by someone all the time. It's rapidly becoming a fact of life. So stop doing sneaky stuff where you care whether someone knows where you are. A lot of the location based wireless services are pretty cool. Check 'em out.
1. There will be no location calculation on the handset as that is done by the server.
2. GPS is neccisary. You just ran of a country road and are trapped in your car. Your cell phone can only see 1 cell tower. Is 5 miles accuracy good enough for the ambulance to find you?
3. Other uses. The company I work for is implementing a system that will enable phone users to allos other people to track them during certain times of the day and in certain areas (all this chosen by the user). You can now allow your friends to find you when and where you want. So next saturday when you are out, you can find exactly where your friends are.
4. 911 call routing is already being done. The call is routed based on the cell-sector the call is comming in from.
5. Big Brother is an issue but I think the benifits outweigh the loss of privacy.
I don't understand the concept of wanting a device the government could use to track where you are every second of the day. It's bad enough in these days of Echelon and Carnivore, without us making it easier. They say you have to dial 911 first, but I just don't beleive them. It's great in an emergency, but I like my privacy. A lot. Pretty soon it'll be included in all cell phones, and won't that just be conveinient. No wonder the government is pushing cell phone companies to implement it. Wait a second, is that guy in the next cube watching me??? Gotta go.
You know, I drive around and see people come to fisticuffs over which lane they want to drive in, people rushing through their days yammering on cell phones still not feeling that they're getting enough done, rush, RUSH, RUSH!!!!
Maybe that broken-down cabin in Montana isn't such a bad idea, just don't write any manifestos and you're pretty much set. Somedays you can keep you're bloody technological wonders.
slashdot: A failed experiment.
GPS _can_ work indoors, in cars, in parking garages, in elevators...
Please see the following links for more details.
http://www.navtechgps.com/seminars/sem218.asp
http://www.snaptrack.com/
http://www.globallocate.com/
Things are not as they appear, nor are they otherwise.
That should be North latitude and West longitude, eh?
A number of threads here have made comments by people that GPS won't work indoors, in an urban environment, in a car,... The problem with such statements is that there is no theoretical basis for them, they are made based upon a person's experience with a particular off the shelf GPS unit. That's _not_ what will be ultimately included in the cellphones. (The first units off the line may have limited performance compared to what will become available in the next couple of years.)
There is nothing magic about getting GPS to work indoors. I hope that everybody realizes that even in an outdoor setting the GPS signal is buried beneath the noise. Please study the terms "massive parallel correlation" and "aiding" and understand how position can be solved for quickly even in a cold start situation in an indoor location.
Here are a couple of companies working on high sensitivity GPS solutions:
http://www.snaptrack.com (Qualcomm)
http://www.globallocate.com
Here is a course outline for a high-sensitivity GPS class offered by Navtech:
http://www.navtechgps.com/seminars/sem218.asp
Indoor GPS, or more precisely, high-sensitivity GPS, is one of the frontiers of GPS development. Driving this development is the need to locate cell-phones and other wireless devices. For this reason, high-sensitivity GPS devices are coming to market in the form of chips that need to be imbedded in wireless devices by the device manufacturer.
This 1 day course includes:
-how the technology works, both theory and practice
-where to get high-sensitivity GPS chips
-how to quantify and assess performance of competing solutions
-how to go about implementing high-sensitivity GPS hardware, including implementation issues and solutions
-the role of the wireless carrier
-industry standards governing wireless location
8:30 - Motivation
Location Based Services and FCC E911 Mandate;
Latest status of E911 Mandate
Standard GPS Review
Why GPS seems difficult
GPS link-budget, power of received signals, dB Review
How GPS works with low signal strengths
GPS architecture review.
GPS signal: at the satellite, at the receiver, the PRN code
Standard GPS receiver.
Front end gain, Friis' formula, Front end worksheet, Baseband, Tracking
loop, Mixers, Baseband gain, Correlation, Receiver SNR worksheet
Why standard GPS doesn't work inside
9:45 - Acquisition and Aiding
Acquisition
Frequency and code delay search space, ambiguity function, acquisition
schemes, acquisition worksheet.
Navigation, role of ephemeris and HOW, re-acquisition at lower signal
strengths, the low signal strength conundrum,
Aiding
The fundamental idea of aiding, role of wireless aiding, history of wireless
aiding: 1981 through 1998.
11:00 - Indoor GPS Theory
Indoor receiver architecture, correlator size vs. integration time, freq/code search space for Assisted-GPS, Assisted-GPS acquisition scheme, coherent integration, I&Q channels and non-coherent integration, squaring loss, Hi-sensitivity SNR worksheet, correlator size vs. sensitivity, signal strengths in practice.
1:30 - Indoor GPS: Who, How, Implementation Issues
Who
Manufacturers of wireless-ready GPS.
How
Hardware and Software approaches; software-correlator and
hardware-correlator receiver architecture, processing timeline,
comparison of Standard & Hi-S GPS receivers.
RF Front ends; what to look for, candidate chips.
Implementation issues
Hardware issues; RAM, ROM, Flash, DSP, Interrupts, Power.
Timing issues; role of time tags, cellular network timing, solving for the
time tag
2:45 - Indoor GPS Performance
Achievable performance
PFA and PD, Achievable performance worksheet
Demonstrated performance
In offices, basements, urban canyons, parking garages & filing cabinets
Measuring and predicting performance
Calibrating/validating your SNR worksheet, with real signals, using a
simulator, effect of code side-lobes, implementation losses.
4:00 - Aiding Sources, Industry Standard, Summary
Aiding sources
Where aiding comes from, reference station, local area & worldwide
network approach, the role of the wireless carrier, broadcast vs. 1:1,
navigation solution in mobile and at server
Industry standards for Assisted-GPS
Common data, GSM, UMTS, CDMA, US-TDMA.
Indoor GPS Summary
The problem we faced and the solution: combination of aiding and
massive parallel correlation.
Indoor GPS reality checklist.
Things are not as they appear, nor are they otherwise.
Well this does help the 911 folks out a little, it really isnt too much different from what there doing now. What happens now (atleast where i saw it) if a cell phone comes in, it gets recorded to a DB just like any other call, but the problem with cell phones is for its description it will only say the name of the provider and your location is estimated by traingulating your where abouts through your cell providers network. What they are hoping with this new gps service is that now they will know your exact where abouts, makes it easier for them to dispatch services too, and it will also have all of your information. See the way i see it this whole gps bussiness really doesnt help 911 out that much (unless im missing something) but maybe this service would be better tied in with this new cell phone tapping network that also has to be implemented in the very near future?
... may not understand that GPS has pretty crappy accuracy when you're down in the middle of a downtown area surrounded by tall buildings. GPS signal availability (L-band requires direct SV-to-user line-of-sight) and severe multipath reception problems made it fairly useless in the downtown canyons. I remember tests done in city environments where the receiver could get fooled into providing a position solution that it was a considerable distance from its true location; all because of the reflected signals one finds in cities. Or did someone rewrite the laws of physics since I've been out of the GPS arena?
All this does is provide someone with a false sense of security that the police will know where you are when you call. I wonder how many times we'll hear about the police showing up on the wrong side of Central Park when responding to a mugging? Or that the call came from 1000 feet over the river, etc.?
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
You must admit that this story is amazing in it's complete lack of non-US views... (except for the finnish guy).
;-)=
Ericsson has been selling an GSM-positioning application for it's base-stations for years (5 at least). It's in wide use for services like the Yellowpages here in Sweden, providing you with the nearest Sushi-restaurant etc... The police in Sweden has been using this for solving criomes the last decade or so so the news are kind of stale.
But if Diffie-Hellman could reinvent something so could Sprint PCS...
/Sorry loser
Sorry, but I don't have any links as I read the article a while ago briefly and I don't bookmark everything I find interesting or else I'd fill a 20GB with just bookmarks ;)
Anyway, a GPS-based speed control system was being tested in Europe somewhere (Germany, I believe). It would locate the vehicle in relation to a stored map of the area, access the legal limit for that particular roadway, and set that limit as the maximum speed on the vehicle's onboard systems.
While the concept is nice - safer roads for everyone - it is actually legal to exceed the posted speed limits on occasion. Medical emergencies, for instance. Frequently travelling to the less desirable areas of town, I've also had to speed away from some... unsavory... individuals once or twice. I'm sure that an officer or a jury would be understanding in such a situation.
The bottom line, in my view, is that there is no way to tailor these tracking measures to be desirable in every situation. Sure, GPS for 911/panic situations is good, but location-targetted marketing is a rather odious concept to me personally.
One other consideration is this: insurance companies use everything they can legally obtain to determine premiums: credit histories, moving violations, place of residence, etc. in the case of auto insurance. They almost become biographers (in a sense). There were bills presented before the House and Senate to prohibit health insurance companies from using genetic data to adjust prices - I would hope to see something similar regarding GPS data. I feel that both types of data fall into the category of "too personal or sensitive to be available without a search warrant".
E911 service could have been addressed by the market: you are worried about it, you want the feature, you buy a GPS-enhanced cell phone that transmits your location using a simple audio code. I think consumers would not have gone for it.
The fact that E911 service was legislated and made a requirementand the fact that phone companies didn't fight it harder suggests to me that it isn't about saving a few lives, it's a combination of a desire by law enforcement to be able to track mobile phone users as part of crime fighting, and a desire of phone companies and advertisers to locate users and stolen phones.
If my math is right, 1km would correspond to a delay of 6 usec; that's an eternity by modern processor standards, not to mention hardware clocks. Furthermore, the handheld doesn't need to keep the time, the tower does. And the phone can take whatever time it needs to respond to each ping, as long as the time is fairly constant (its latency just becomes another unknown in the triangulation).