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Porting Debian to... Windows
mike_sucks writes: "The first step to porting Debian to the Win32 platform has been made - dpkg is compiling under Cygwin. Check out the post on debian-devel and the Debian GNU/w32 port's site." Some of the posters on the debian-devel list aren't too pleased with the idea.
I thought this was an odd idea.
Why would anyone want to port an OS to another OS (don't start with "Windows is not an OS, please!")?
Then I saw what this all meant.
If people can get used to using Debian tools and programs on Windows, then they won't be nearly as nervous about using them in a GNU/Linux environment.
Bravo! I can't wait to see how that turns out.
I have 3656.9 Bogomips. How many Bogomips do you have?
No. Why would a user move when everything is being brought to them. Seems to me this makes it easier to stay in Windows.
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
but they should have no problem if they find themselves in a Linux environment as opposed to Windows.
I still think it will take more for them to be attracted to any GNU/Linux implementation.
I have 3656.9 Bogomips. How many Bogomips do you have?
I remember when this was first discussed on debianplanet, and a lot of people started flipping out. There's simply some places (such as the work office), where one is forced to use a Win32 OS, and cannot dual-boot. Besides, dual-booting is a PITA. If I can "dpkg -i" a package under cygwin, and get to using the gimp VS photoshop, I'll do it in a heartbeat.
:)
At best, one can say that this will deter people from linux. But then again, everyone loves linux because of all the OSS available for it. And if the whole goal is to promote OSS, why neglect the largest user base? Then when people get sick of Windows, they can convert to FreeBSD or Linux or whatever without there being a huge learning curve involved.
I don't think I really agree with the port being called w32 though. win32 is not a moniker that promotes Windows as a winner, it's just the first syllable of the word, just like a lot of nicknames are formed. I wish RMS would spend more time coding than trying to be a politician
If there was a "-1 Not Funny", that'd be my most used mod.
is when people start griping for commercial software as easy and smart as their free stuff.
;)
;)
Yes, this already goes on sometimes (in server rooms, say), but it's still funny and as much a contrarian in-joke in many cases as it is a genuine sentiment. When it stops being funny -- well, that *will* be funny
I'd like to see Red Hat & c. (IBM is doing this a bit) play up the HUGE upgrade free software means when it comes to complexity, ongoing costs, etc.
Ongoing costs for software rental / licensure (and remember, companies don't *buy* most software, esp. from Microsoft -- they purchase quite restrictive licenses) are like holes in your money bag. From a business standpoint, they'd better be doing a lot of "making your memos more productive" to make up for it.
The more software that can be apt-get installed, the flatter the (overstated) learning curve becomes. Someone will probably make sure that Windows has a cute apt-get wizard too
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
As an experienced (~10 year) developer who has spent most of his time in the Win32 world and a little bit in the *nix court, this is good news for me.
A lot of people think Windows is inflexible because it does not have a layered windowing system ala X, but this is not an issue if someone wants to write a shell for the OS to replace Explorer (see http://www.geoshellx.com for a very basic implementation). It's not easy, but it's not forbidden or blocked by the OS architecture in any way. If someone wants to bring this type of good stuff to Windows, I think everyone will be more than happy.
I think a lot of people who are already using Cygwin (for instance if they have no other choice at work than to work with windows) will be very pleased with this.
Apt-getting all your software in stead of compiling and recompiling and recompiling everything would be a huge improvement. Lots and lots more software will get availible for the cygwin users this way...
I will follow this with great interrest
How could they port something which is open source, onto a platform which is and always will be closed source.
I dont understand the logic in mixing the two.
Debian is the version of Linux for the open source supporter, follows the GPL strictly, if this is true, why choose to port it to Microsoft out of every possible OS, why not Apple? why not OS2? why not BeOS?
Whats the point in wasting the programming time and effort of providing a free service to the competition?
This time could have been used to improve debian for linux.
What a waste
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Waste of time? It only wasted a minute of your time, and most of that was wasted by you posting a reply.
Waste of time for the developers? They are working on what they are interested in. If you want them to work on something they are less interested in, pay them. "Silly" side projects is what makes this games work.
Waste of time for the users? Some folks have to use Windows in a job context, because the tools they use are Windows only. Once people are used to Unix tools, it's hard to go back. Plus, what happens to the Wintel platform when:
The user runs free office applications that freely work with Microsoft Office formats, but have an even better native format
The user ignores the latest "vital" Microsoft operating system extensions, in favor of tools ported from the Linux / BSD environments
The user uses non-Microsoft entertainment apps, because they are less restrictive than the "official" ones
Core Microsoft facilities are replaced with ones that work better with the "ported" tools
Users have the option of emulating Windows software/games, or buying a native Linux version, and start to seriously think about the Linux version
The hardest part about moving to Linux is learning the 200 basic facts that allow you to work at all (deleting files is called "removing", user files go here, applications go here, you start X11 by typing "startx", etc.). If you can learn 100 of those facts under a Windows environment, you are half-way there.
This is a stepping stone in a migration to the standard Debian, or it may be the start of new and interesting developments. We just have to wait and see.
(Dammit, responded to an AC again...)
I use native win32 ports of gnu tools daily. Why? Because they are small and just work. The application is king. I don't really care where I run it. quixotal
Some of the posters on the debian-devel list aren't too pleased with the idea.
The whole idea of open source software is that people can extend it to do the things they want to do. In other words, it allows them to get the job done in the way they want to do it.
Why do people get upset when others extend the capabilites of a system in a way that they find useful? If you don't like losing control over a piece of software - don't release the source.
I think there is less opportunity here than some people think. Most of the soccer moms do not use Linux on their home PCs because of the following reason: It was not installed on her machine when she purchased it at Circuit City with 4 years of AOL service for the family to balance the checkbook and surf the net.
That's it. Nothing more. Have the big consumer outlets sell PCs with Linux and a useful office suite running in Gnome or KDE with an Outlook clone and you have them then.
Bring the good Linux apps into Windows? Where is the motivation for the retailers to gamble on Linux if everytime that rare soccer mom asks for that "Linux thing her kids told her about" the sales person can say, "Ohh, you don't have to do that. It all runs under Windows too!"
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
How can using Free Software on NT ( or any other non-GNU system ) be bad? I just think its great that there are tools that make a mixed development enviroment work smoothly. I fail to see how this is bad..
Linux isnt the answer to all the questions out there and its really nice to use familiar tools no mather what platform your on.
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
Trust me; if you can show me an OS that does everything that Windows does that I like, is more stable, AND is free / cheap, I'll switch
By bringing the apps into your Windows PC you are not getting any proof of anything. You are just getting a better Windows machine. Why would anyone be fool enough to switch from Windows if they can have it all there?
Lets be real, there will always be an app or two that only runs in Windows until there is a critical mass of soccer moms using Linux as a desktop. Ports like this hurt the chances that such critical mass will ever be achieved. Bill likes this.
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
Should we be porting software from Windows to Linux(e.g., WINE) instead of from Linux to Windows?
Really, who do you mean by 'we'? This may be a shock to you, but there are some people who actually *ghasp* like windows, myself included. The fact of the matter is, for me, A lot of things are just easier for me to deal with in windows then in Linux, even setting up and running Apache, because I'm more used to it. I have a little Linux box for playing around with, but for the most part I like windows.
I mean, the driving force of Open source software is people doing stuff because they feel like doing it. people doing stuff because they want to. You can't just say "we should work on WINE for accomplishing our political objectives" and then have Everybody magically want to spend their time reimplementing Microsoft skank-nasty APIs
This may bother you, but everything on Debian is Open Source. And that means that you can take it and do whatever you want to with it, including porting it to windows.
If this is a success, there's a good chance I'll be running it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Ok I could be wrong but has anyone noticed on those posts ANYTHING from Branden Robinson that didnt have some uber hacker wannabe slang in it? just a little curious as to the intellectual integrity of some of the people involved in the distro ;D
Why is it that people even care. I wonder, what is it going to bother people if anything is ported. I dont think its quite made for them to use now is it? If you dont want to use something DONT! Maybe someone NEEDS windows for something. Like i believe it was an earlier slashdot article about spell checkers and linux. Editing atm is superior on windows, why use windows the way it is if you can use apps you like. Just like wine, some people want the stability of linux but like some windows apps. Why are we being so close minded. I dont want to hear any "oh its M$ cra..." Think beyond the box, realise that not everyones needs are the same as yours. This does not show my personal opinion. I personaly think its a waste of time and everything should all be on some type of unix varient =] but its just no rational to think this will happen. We need to learn to deal with this, and bringing linux to windows in more ways than one is a step in the right direction.
every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills hundreds of people every year trying to find it.
The folks here who *have* to run windows, don't really, they *have* to run certain windows apps, because they are a defacto standard in the relevant application domain and the linux apps aren't quite up to par yet and WINE isn't quite ready for that app.
That is not true of all the folks here who have to run Windows.
Some of them indeed do have to run whatever OS their company has selected, and don't think that what OS happens to be on their computer is reason enough to quit their job.
maybe it's too hard for OEM's to preinstall RedHat or Debian (insert your fav here), but once they are allowed to 'modify' the default windows desktop (after the court case) then I wonder how many OEM's could be convinced to preinstall cygwin or debian? The results would be a generation of kids growing up on gcc, bash, etc. That would be cool.
Focus on making software on and for Linux and *nix compatibles like BSD only. Do what MS does to try and lock people into their OS. Although you can't exactly lock someone into Linux since you have many distro's and it's free and open; then there is BSD and all the other *nix's. Still, the focus should be on making Linux and GNU software better and keep it away from proprietary areas. Make open software that's compatible with the proprietary versions, port software for the MS OS's to Linux. As the Linux OS and it's software base evolves, then MS software users will find a good reason to switch, and it will be ever harder for MS to lock users in. If we port great Linux software to the MS OS's, we only help MS in locking users in.
The only software that I see that would benefit porting to Window's, etc. is development software; compilers and such. This would help developers make an easier transition to developing on Linux.
Question everything.
the GNU system ran for half a decade on commercial UNIXs. It was designed on commercial UNIXs, this is really nothing new, other then the fact that its got a different interface
Of course, who knows how Stallman would actually feel. He opposed GNU work on the original Macintosh, and he clearly isn't the most rational man...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If you want to use Debian tools, USE DEBIAN!! Not Debian on Win32
With Win32, you get all the Win32 drivers. For instance, Debian GNU/Linux doesn't support my laptop's internal modem. With Debian on Win32, on the other hand, I could alt-tab out to Mozilla and dial the Internet.
Will I retire or break 10K?
You seem to be very ignorant of two things:
- Everything to do with people and their different motivations, desires, and beliefs, invariably ends up being political. All RMS wants is for software to be free, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In expressing his views and taking action to promote Free Software, he cannot, however, avoid political issues no matter how he tried.
- You also fail to realize how much coding the man has done. Probably more than you would even see in your lifetime.
[I apologize for being a bit bitter. Your post was quite fine but the part about RMS stung. I just see too many people being very willing to take a stab at RMS, and ignore all the contributions he has made to ensure that our world is not controlled by a few conglomerate monopolies, and that by making code available to the public, civil liberties can be somewhat protected and advancements more readily made.]O.K. Suppose MS succeeds in monitoring licenses over the internet and moving to a subscription model. Now suppose you are a soccer mom with a new PC that with WinXP pre-installed and you install debian for windows later for whatever reason. Then suppose you grow to like the debian stuff and rely on it.
Now suppose the XP license expires after a year and your computer refuses to let you run anything until you pay a renewal fee. Now suppose your nephew, a linux savvy high school age kid, offers to blow away win XP, install debian linux, and restore your files and debian environment.
Now do you see the logic in this? It is putting constraints on what MS can do with its nefarious licensing plans.
No. Why would a user move when everything is being brought to them. Seems to me this makes it easier to stay in Windows.
This makes it easier for people to migrate away from windows. If the path from win32 to Linux is a literally that: a path and not a cliff, people will be more inclined to walk that path. Few people will jump off the cliff, even if what's below is much better.
Once this port is working, then all of our win32 joe-sixpack users will start being exposed to all sorts of software packages that they can use: games, productivity, etc. Gnumeric. Abiword. Xmms. Not demos, but free. Always free. Just download and run. They'll see GNU and OSS in license agreements. They's see it our emails. They'll join announcement mailing lists get immediate upgrades -- for free.
They'll come to expect free software all the time. Not as a political statement. Not as a anti-corporate philosophy. But because they are cheap bastards. No offense. (None taken)
Then, in a couple years, when ol' Bill rolls out his next Windows XS. Joe six-pack will think: "What? He expects me to pay?"
At that time, he say "I've got all this free software that people keep telling me will run on a free operating system." So instead of getting Windows XS, he will get RedHat 10.2.
And the transition will be complete.
One last note: The OSS community often complains about people taking from the community but not giving back. This phenomenon will increase as more joe-sixpack's start using free software. As oss gains more popular, the ratio of those who contribute to those who don't will continute to grow.
Most of these guys wouldn't even know how to contribute if they wanted. They sure aren't going to donate cash, because that's the overidding motivation for the growth of free software beyond your basic slashdot reader: free as in beer. Screw politics.
That's okay. Consider it this way: they're primary contribution to oss and your project is:
1) a big user base bestows legitimacy
2) they *aren't* supporting ms/aol/apple etc.
This will have to be enough. We can *not* spit on these people. We can't view them with contempt because they understand "The specs are open. Write your own device driver to that digital camera."
Software Wars
Some of the posters on the debian-devel list aren't too pleased with the idea.
It's interesting to note that, while porting anything TO Linux is acceptable, porting Linux to something else irritates some.
I think this is something positive. If you can give users of other platform a taste of your own cooking, chances are they'll come for a full meal at some point.
Or at the very least, make them taste something else and open up their minds.
I see this as a teaser, and a pretty good way to get some free software (like Gimp), other than the OS itself, a chance to open up to a new crowd.
So I'd say that while some of the code may not require any modifications, there is probably enough tweaking involved that I would count it as porting.
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
Is this about doing good for the users, promoting their freedom to run software on whatever platform they happen to be using?
Or is this about confining users by forcing them to use proprietary software just because their OS is proprietary, in the name of the ongoing battle between free and proprietary software?
If so, this reeks of exactly the same thing as the DMCA, geek profiling, and dozens of other violations of our rights. You have to be very careful when fighting the enemy that you don't become the enemy.
Philosophically, this is the question of, "Does the end justify the means?" I don't have the space to get into that whole debate here, but the short answer is that before you squish a project like this, you better be damn sure it does.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
Open source developers aren't simply trying to get Linux used everywhere 'because it's Linux,' they are actually trying to make the software world a little better, more functional.
You would think Slashdot readers would be pleased at a technological advancement.
Joe Sixpack and Susie SockerMom CAN be an asset to Linux. For one thing, when he whines that feature X doesn't work right, he's exposing a bug. And, more important, if a lot of people start asking if that snazzy new digital camera works with Linux, the vendor will make sure that it does or he'll lose $$$.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
"You have your tree shakers and your jelly makers."
Translation:
You have your people who make a whole lot of noise and get everything all shaken up. These people are often zealots who are viewed by most rational people as being partially out of their gourds.
Then you have the people who "gather the fruit," so to speak, of the zealots efforts and make something constructive out of them.
You need both types. The tree-shakers are often willing to push boundaries and to take risks that might seem insane, but that in the end serve to advance the cause as a whole. But people rarely listen to nut-jobs, it's up to the level-headed people to transform the work of maniacs into something suitable for everyone (and to filter out the psychotic ideas).
So pay no heed to RMS. He's nuts, and most people recognise that, but thanks to his extremeism, lots of good things have come about (only due to the people who know when to listen to him and when to tune him out).
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
>They'll come to expect free software all the
>time. Not as a political statement. Not as a
>anti-corporate philosophy. But because they are
>cheap bastards. No offense. (None taken)
They already do. To Joe Sixpack, most of his software is already free (as in beer), he just downloads it from a warez site, or gets his buddy to burn him a copy.
Joe Sixpack isn't going to pick legal but harder-to-use software over illegal but easy-to-use software, I think. And trying to explain the virtues of `Free as in speech' is a waste of time (Joe Sixpack watches wrestling, not the History Channel. Joe Sixpack reads Maxim, not Nietzche (which I probably have spelled wrong)).
>Then, in a couple years, when ol' Bill rolls out
>his next Windows XS. Joe six-pack will think:
>"What? He expects me to pay?"
He already thinks that. Joe Sixpack is the type that will let his buddy installed a `hacked' version of XP, with the expiration code stripped out or whatever. Even though this is a risky move (in a technical sense, if not a legal one), he will do it anyway, then proceed to bash Microsoft (*) when the OS dies & takes all his data with it.
(*) Not that I'm making MS out to be the good guys here, but if you're going to bash MS, at least bash them for things that are actually their fault!