FIRST Robotics Competition Starts Today

cscx writes: "Today is the kickoff day of the 2002 FIRST Robotics Competition. For those of you that don't know what FIRST (Dean Kamen, Segway, IT) is, it's an organization meant to interest high-school students in science and engineering by giving them 6 weeks to build a complete functioning robot. (By the way, FIRST is what most likely inspired BattleBots) Teams, although they require funding to pay for the kits, receive many different mechanical and electrical (the programmable control system kicks ass! :) parts in the kits, along with full copies (donated by the companies) of Autodesk Inventor, Character Studio, 3D Studio Max, and Reactor, as well as Microsoft Office XP, Frontpage, and Project. There is a live webcast of the kickoff, with an unveiling of the game at 11:00 EST." Update: 01/05 16:15 GMT by T : Here's a link to the webcast information page; the webcast is available in WMF and RealMedia formats, and will be archived as RealMedia.

Comments

hooray!

[Anonymous Coward]

fp

Re:hooray!

[ringbarer]

I'd sooner have a FIST Robot myself. Up my stretched anus.

I think I speak for ALL Slashdot-fans here.

You're wrong.

[c_g_hills]

FIRST is what most likely inspired BattleBots

Actually Battlebots is a rip off of the British Robot Wars.

Re:You're wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a rip-off if it's an improvement. At least it suits my American television tastebuds better.

Re:You're wrong.

[arbitrary nickname]

No. It's the other way round!...

Robot Wars is a poor rip-off of battlebots

Re:You're wrong.

[c_g_hills]

Hey don't get me wrong, I'm Australian... I don't particularly like either one of them (:

Re:You're wrong.

[GigsVT]

The real Robot Wars, in the desert (in arizona I think), not on TV, was around in 1995 or so. That is the real inspiration for battle bots.

Great

[Blue_Cygnet]

FIRST is a great program. There is a similar program in Canada called Canada FIRST inspired by FIRST and when I was in High School I had a blast. As an older person, we can mentor the students, though I have not been close to my school and have not asked to mentor.

page lengthening post!

[Klerck]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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i shit myself report for 1/5/02

[Anonymous Coward]

well, last night I was drinking budweiser. A lot of it. I ended up picking up a chick at the dance bar. She was just as inebriated as I. Anyhow, we got back to her apartment. She passes out, so I start fucking her. Fucking usually gives me wicked gas. Not that she'd mind; she might as well have been dead.

Anyhow, I'm almost ready to shoot my wad, and I squeeze out another stinker. But this was no stinker, liquid shit dribbled down coating my nutsack, and left a big brown stain on her bed. I still blew my load.

Maybe I'll see her tomorrow night! :)

Battlebots.

[DrPsycho]

Battlebots. Robot wars. Robotica. I've lost track of the number of look alike shows.

What I want to know is why Battlebots is being carried by the Comedy Network here in Canada. What the hell does Battlebots have to do with comedic television programming? The only thing I could come up with is the fact that it still meets with the Comedy Network's slogan: "Time Well Wasted."

I know the question sounds pretty anal retentive, but I can remember back to when Ren and Stimpy was being broadcast by Muchmusic, and it got yanked off the air when people complained to the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Telecommunications Commission... kinda like the FCC for you south-of-the-border types) that it didn't belong on Much because it wasn't "music related programming."

Um. How far offtopic am I now?

Re:Battlebots.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the Comedy Network different from Comedy Central?

On your tangent they show Ren & Stimpy on VH1 in the States. VH1=Video hits 1, top 40 music TV.

Whoa

[fizban]

Oh my, there certainly were not enough parenthetical statements in that paragraph! You should add some more for our reading pleasure. A few recursive one would do nicely, to allow my mind to completely lose track of the flow of the sentence, rather than only partly losing it...

Hints About the Game

[cscx]

Although the game will be kept a secret till 11 AM EST, they have unveiled some hints:

1. The kickoff is taking place in a hockey rink
2. Playground balls have been 'thrown' across the stage
3. Basketball-lookalike balls have been thrown onto the stage as well
4. Some sort of octagonal movable cart with PVC pipe extending into the air (looks like a type of goal) was mysteriously wheeled onto the stage...

They have said that there will be more room for 'roughing' in this year's game... roughing, one of the most fun part of the competitions, had been seriously downplayed in last year's competition.

Dean also said that Disney is in some super-secret marketing scheme with the Segways to "make them available more quickly..." with something to do with the Regional and National competions. It will be unveiled in a few weeks.

Pnematics Information

[andres32a]

There is an interesting Nasa Pnuematics Workshop video that might be useful for people interested...

Re:Pnematics Information

[chialea]

It's true that pneumatics are included in the parts given the teams, but given the weight constraints on the robot and the type of pneumatic components that are given, it's considered death to use the pneumatics, even if you know how.

Lea

Re:Pnematics Information

[LightForce3]

A year or two ago, my team (Team 85, Built on Brains) used pneumatics with considerable success. Albeit the use was limited to one or two subsystems (opening an closing the lid of a bin, opening and closing a claw), but these subsystems performed their jobs very well when the robot was completed. And the whole robot was about 80% student built, too.

You can use pneumatics successfully, if you do it right!

--LF3

Re:Pnematics Information

[beowulfshaeffer]

...it's considered death to use the pneumatics, even if you know how.

Really? my team did quite well last year in the ocmpetition, when pneumatics was a major part of the robot.

I as supposed to be in it

[Anonymous Coward]

I (jaren havell) was supposed to be joining the Cheshire,Ct shcool in this, but since im not part of their school district (Homeschooler in southinghton) i cant participate, and i couldent do southinghton either

this totaly sucks

Re:I as supposed to be in it

[the_pointman]

You should be allowed to enter into programs in the district that you pay your taxes to. I have a friend who had a similar problem in Massachussetts with regards to varsity athletics. If the FIRST program is something you are interested in, I would persue this through your lawyer. My friend won, and got his AD fired. The taste of vengence is always sweet.

Early Introduction to ENG fields == Good;

[the_pointman]

The FIRST program sounds like a great way to introduce high school students to undergraduate degrees in the engineering fields. I entered my engineering college as a CS major, but quickly found myself branching out into the mechanical engineering field to fufill my general science credits.

Not only does this allow males to explore engineering fields, but this introduces engineering to females at a lower level than college courses. I feel early introduction to technical fields is fundamental in opening the door for more females to enter, and be accepted, in to these "male-dominated" fields.

It's good to see that companies are donating software and kits, but I'll be impressed if they burn their own ROMs and use erector sets.

Re:Early Introduction to ENG fields == Good;

[chialea]

You have a point, but as someone who has participated in this more than once, it's a rather idealistic one. Most teams are actually run by the engineers: design, construction, programming, everything. Students are relegated to cheerleaders during the competition. And General Motors isn't the only offender. When my team made it to the semi-finals, most teams were shocked, simply becasue we were not engineer-built. (we had some engineers, mostly from Xerox PARC, but they were mainly there in a supervisory capactiy -- as in "there must be an adult in the shop" and to conduct design reviews) I realize that not all of the teams have the necessary background for this sort of work, but it really isn't teaching them much of anything. It's tolerated becasue "they might learn something, and that's better than nothing", which has the effect of discouraging other teams from designing and building their own robots.

As for females, I was one of them. You will see women on these teams, but most often as cheerleaders, on both the engineer-built and the student-built teams. I'm not making any statements about who chose that role for them, simply noting that there are very few women who are, for example, drivers or part of the pit crews. And if you are part of the pit crew, people from OTHER TEAMS will not pay attention to you and push you out of the way in an effort to look at your robot (information gathering, not real curiosity). I simply hope they don't treat their own members like that.

And it's not that the companies donate kits. They donate money (part of which goes to pay the entry fee, and if you pay the entry fee, you get the kit -- which is NOT all the materials you need); they donate engineer's time; they donate use of their shops.

Lea

Re:Early Introduction to ENG fields == Good;

[Transcendent]

I'm on a FIRST team, and the engineers don't run us... not by far. My best friend is the main programmer for the robot (it's not that hard), the main builder and robot designer, and also the robot operator, I'm the head 3D animator, and the daughter of the head of the team is the designer (awesome... awesome artist). The engineers we have only help out a little bit... the original engineer who did the programming for the robot was absolutely horrible.

We all know about the other teams we face that are run by engineers, and we still beat them. Every year we've gone to the nationals in florida... It's a shame that the engineers in other teams are taking all the work away from the kids... the learning experience you get from being on the team (and participating... not cheerleading) is enoumous, and the engineers should just sit back a little more, and let the kids do more of the work...

Things like this are cool

[peterdaly]

I saw something similar to this at Syracuse University a few (3-4?) years ago. Students created robots with the ability to find their way through a plywood maze, locate a burning candle, and put out the flame. There were some interesting designs, and the task made each student put a variety of features onto the Robot. Sensors and logic to find their way through the maze without a) bumping into walls, b) going down the same hallway twice. Sensors of various type to locate a candle in each room of the maze, and some type of system to put out a candle (light sensors or heat sensors, attached to a fan, etc.) Most of the login boards were available for about $100, and programmed in C. Cool toy to play with if you have a reason.

I almost wish I had a reason to make something like this myself.

-Pete

Re:Things like this are cool

[SpinyNorman]

I almost wish I had a reason to make something like this myself.

How much of a reason do you need?

How about just for fun - as a hobby!

Re:Things like this are cool

[RevRigel]

You're thinking of the Trinity College Fire Fighting Home Robot Contest. Our Robot Team at UT Austin competed in it for a few years, but it got too expensive to fly up there and have Fedex destroy our equipment.

FIRST is great but

[jackb_guppy]

Battlebots came out of Lucas Films. The FX Guys wanted to have fun and started with dog fighting model planes. It grew from there.

FIRST is Unimpressive compared to BotBall

[Anonymous Coward]

FIRST robots are nearly always teleoperated, and rarely if ever have a control system, much less autonomy. Thus FIRST kids learn a little mechanical engineering and how to use Autodesk. Great, just what we need, another radio-controlled high school competition.

Coming out of the MIT Lego competitions, Botball robots are autonomous. To build one you have to understand not only mechanical engineering but basic control systems, autonomy, sensors and sensor fusion, and also how all these things work together. Botball teams also compete directly against each other, so you have to consider how your robot will find solutions despite the other robot's actions. Lastly, Botball is inexpensive: you don't have to be a private school :-) in order to compete.

Re:FIRST is Unimpressive compared to BotBall

[MikeD83]

There's a difference between FIRST and Botball.
1. FIRST is by high school kids who have very little knowledge before going in.
2. FIRST's robots get built in 6 weeks or you don't play.

Re:FIRST is Unimpressive compared to BotBall

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have to be a private school to compete in FIRST either. Let's see you build a Botball robot that could pull a car (yes... we did that to test out a drive system on our robot). I think that's a little more impressive than that tiny little toy they show on the website...

Anyway, you can build that stuff out of leggos (they have kits for you to buy)... the programming couldn't be that difficult either... so what's so impressive? It's not like its real AI or anything...

A promising sign

[CatherineCornelius]

Given the huge prominence given on TV to those misnamed radio-controlled go-karts, I'm relieved to see that there is still a lot of grassroots interest in building true autonomous machines of this kind.

Re:A promising sign

[beowulfshaeffer]

These aren't autonomous either. They are in fact glorified, hand built, radio-controlled go-karts.

Think Different

[Anonymous Coward]

FIRST robots aren't autonomous. Think Battlebots.

Re:Think Different

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck FIRST, Think FIST

Re:Think Different

[CatherineCornelius]

That'll teach me to read more closely (sigh).

Saddening to see the term robotics used for what is really just an exercise in control system implementation. These remote controlled miniature go-karts are fun to watch, arguably, but it has very little to do with robots.

In my country we don't have "battle bots", but the BBC runs a program called Robot Wars that features grown men bellowing like grannies at a wrestling match at these things, which have names like Attila, Toe-grinder, Sir Bash-a-lot, and whatnot.

"roughing"

[ringbarer]

Is that slang for "violent anal penetration of children"?

It should be.

Correction...

[starman97]

Survival Research Labs is what inspired Battlebots.

There's a lego mindstorms league too

[miradu2000]

I helped First test this out, but now it seems to have gone international. First Lego League International . It's pretty cool - here though the challanges are known before when building your robot, and you are giving a Lego Mindstorms kit and can use your own components. It's mainly for late elementry or jr.high school - but it can be mentered by anyone. It was a LOT of fun when I did it except the other team destroeyd our robot...

FIRST has competition...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's another competition meant for older (post HS) participants. It's called FIST and the project's goals are to build a robot with the biggest gaping asshole possible.

What They Really Learn

[DeadBugs]

My company does this every year. And of course it's supposed to be a few of our employees overseeing the High School students while they build the robot. What actually happens is the Engineers from my company argue over the design and concept until the last minute. Then they work long hours near the end of the deadline to finish it. The kids get bored, the Non-Engineers from my company to most the work and we get our butts whipped at the competition. Although they may not learn much about robotics, they are getting a first rate education in office politics, theory over implementation and other great office battles not taught in any college. Of course they do get a free trip to Disney World.

Re:What They Really Learn

[chialea]

Yes, some of the teams are like yours (do you work at GM :P), but some of them are not. A lot of the non-engineer bots suck, but some of them are quite well done. The team I came from does quite well every year, and they're entirely student-run. The team I supervised one year did quite well in regionals, but didn't have the money to make it to nationals -- they had to break up the entry fee among themselves, since they didn't manage any corporate sponsorship, which yes, means no engineers. (The answer to your question is: college students)

I know the rationale for letting this continue is that some students "aren't as well prepared" as those from more affluent areas, and that this allows them a way to participate, and that they "might learn something." I don't see that going on on the engineer-led teams. I've never been on one, but I see that you agree with me :). But still, for such an expensive (and badly webcast) event, many students get the experience of being cheerleaders, nothign more, while some students get the experience of designing and building a robot, and learning a LOT in the process. Shouldn't we be striving for the latter? Restricting companies to money and shop time (and help) might help, but it's unlikely to happen.

Lea

Re:What They Really Learn

[olin01]

Agreed with the above. Teams get what they want out of it. If they allow a sponsor to take over the program, it'll happen. If they want to get in their and build it themselves, it'll happen. The very first thing on the FIRST website is "FIRST has an imperative, singular focus: to excite more young people about the accessibility, fun, and importance of science and engineering." It accomplishes that. The regional competitions are big productions, and the national competition is amazing. NO WHERE does it say that it's purpose is to educate, and we really should only criticize FIRST if it is failing to achieve it's objectives. if you don't agree with the objective, don't participate. In my experience, my team decided education was one of our priorities. We build just about everything ourselves, and the engineers from the sponor company served as resources. They were there to answer questions, point out where we were going wrong (in six weeks, you don't have time to make too many mistakes), and occassionally contribute suggestions. This was the way our team worked, and in my opinion, it is the best way for a FIRST team to be structured. That said, it's only the way our team did it. Yes, we were frustrated by some of the engineer-led teams. One team revolted us particularly. We were curious about their drive system, so we asked some students how they made it. They didn't know. We found the engineers, and they were able to tell us. Curious, we asked what the students had done. Response: "Oh, we let them try to attach some parts we made, but they made some mistakes, so we took it from there." At the competition, only two students and the engineers were allowed to even touch the robot. This does seem to be an extreme that is to be avoided, but the criticism should not be directed at FIRST, instead, at the engineers that captured the project and at the advisers and students that allowed it to happen.

Re:What They Really Learn

[cscx]

"NO WHERE does it say that it's purpose is to educate, and we really should only criticize FIRST if it is failing to achieve it's objectives. if you don't agree with the objective, don't participate."

Dean made this clear in his keynote speech. He said that it's purpose is definitely not to educate, but rather to "inspire" and make them recognisant of technology.

Re:What They Really Learn

[ecarlson]

That's too bad. The kids on our team (team 116) do lots of the work. Of course we have the advantage of having Dave Lavery from Nasa on our team (you saw him speak on the kickoff broadcast), and he's great at getting everyone involved. Out team was also featured on A&E's "The competition", on which you can see how involved some of our students are (I was visible on the show for a few seconds, but I didn't have any speaking parts).

I've got lots of photos of out team's activities so far this year on my web site. I plan to add more soon, and to add photos from last years regional and nation competitions.

Eric, http://www.InvisibleRobot.com/

Re:What They Really Learn

[Anonymous Coward]

TEAM 116 REPRESENT! word dawg!

Re:What They Really Learn

[jessh]

It sounds like you just gave lots of information on why your companies team never wins. Its sad to hear that some schools teams end up like that, but not all, at the school I go to (yes I am a high school student and am involved in the competition) the students do the work, and we usually do decently (my memory sucks so I dont remember exactly how we have ranked in the past, havent been first but done really well).

We also did the BEST competition earlier this year, and due to the downturn in the economy and the fact that one of the companies they worked for layed off a lot of people and we ended up loosing most of our mentors, even when we had them they did not do much work, the students (including myself) did the work with advice from the mentors, which is the reason they are suposed to be there, not to build the damn thing.

well sorry for the ranting and bad spelling......

Learn more from watching Junkyard Wars

[cwhittenburg]

I watched an hour or so of one of the FIRST competitions on Nasa TV. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I mean, they're provided with virtually all of the interesting parts. How do you learn from this? Does one learn how to design a car if they're given a working engine, a transmission, wheels, a chassis, and they just have to put it together?

In my opinion, the kids would learn more if corporations got out of it. It's always apparent when some kid brings a project to school that you know his parents put together for him, and that's what this looks like. What's the point? Sit the kid down in front of a couple hours of junkyard wars, give them a Lego mindstorm set (at the most) and then let them do the work.

And all the cheering just makes it a little too much like those friday night high school football games. uh, thanks, but no.

Re:Learn more from watching Junkyard Wars

[chialea]

Some of them are done by the engineers, some are not. And you're not going to be able to guess, always, without knowing the team. The GM teams, sure, they're engineer-built, that one Baxter team, etc. But there are some that are not, like the team I came from, who does very well every year.

And trust me, while you get motors, and wheels, you don't get any of the other parts. You get odds and ends. There is NOT enough stuff in there to build a robot. You need metal, you need to work it (unless you're one of the PVC teams). There's a lot of design and implementation work there -- it's just a question of who is doing it.

Lea

Re:Learn more from watching Junkyard Wars

[Cheeko]

And all the cheering just makes it a little too much like those friday night high school football games. uh, thanks, but no. Dean Kamen's intent was to have them like Friday night football games. His goal is to have engineers and scientists looked upon as role models the same way that athletes are. Its a rather admirable goal in my opinion. I'd much have my kids striving to get a college education and using thier mind.

JPL & 2001 FIRST

[spaceland]

Last year I visited JPL while they were having their Open House. It was a very cool day that included some great behind-the-scenes stuff, and many of the 2001 FIRST competitors robots were on display as well. I shot some video and posted it to Reality Feed, check it out.

it's sad...

[Anonymous Coward]

...but you're totally right. at my high school, kids were picked by teachers [read: if the teachers like you, you go, otherwise you're screwed]. "building" the robot was done pretty much totally by the corporate sponsor. the kids just kind of got to play with the remote control.

wissahickon school district in ambler, pennsylvania - i'm looking at you.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again

[LOTR Troll]

FIRST robotics sucks, it's a complete joke. All hail KA-MEN. Ahhh Ooohhm. Ahhh Ooohhm. Ahhh Ooohhm.

I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

that Java is slow and unsuitable for robotic research.

Why Slashdot Sucks - (Page Lengthening Post)

[Anonymous Coward]

I work with a bunch of geeks. And that's okay. They do their thing and I do mine. Most of the time I'm happy for them, that they get joy and happiness out of playing with electronics. Admittedly I disagree with a lot of their thoughts about life. People used to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe, then it was the sun, but now we all know that the computer is the focal point of the universe, projecting its cathode ray goodness on our souls. You can't eat, sleep, breathe, live or run a business without one, or so we're told.

But if there's one thing I have no tolerance for, it's the geek phenomenon known as slashdot.org, the sorriest case for content on the web I've ever seen pawned off and gleefully accepted by the masses.

When I look at magazines, newspapers, or any other source of information, I judge them on three items: usefulness/uniqueness of content, quality of that content, and the depth of coverage regarding that content.

Slashdot has none of these things. And yet people try to convince me that the people who run that website are working hard at it.

Say what?

That's right - when Andover.net filed its IPO, making the editors of Slashdot instant wannabe millionaires, someone in the office said "Those guys put in a lot of hard work, and they deserve the success."

Now, I write code for a living, and I work hard at it, so I have a good idea of how slashdot operates. I guarantee you that the entire website is little more than leftover code from college projects and other unrelated work. At the very best, it is ill-conceived and poorly developed, which explains in part why the interface is so miserably awful, and the site is unbelievably slow.

Let's theorize what goes on in the average day of the slashdot editors:

10:42 AM - get out of bed.
10:45 AM - first Dr Pepper of the day.
10:46 AM - unglue keyboard from desk, check stock market.
10:56 AM - find a few interesting tech stories on the web. This is easy, since users send them to us all the time.
11:04 AM - post said stories to slashdot, disregarding spelling and journalistic impartiality.
11:08 AM - start playing Quake 3 (or whatever the game of the moment is).
3:15 AM - go to sleep.

If I'm wrong about anything, it's that they get up even later than that. And I couldn't figure out what time that order the pizza for dinner. But they have pepperoni on them.

Content - The content of slashdot is, admittedly, targeted towards geeks. But apparently not very smart ones. Regardless of the target audience, the content is never challenging - it never pushes the reader to think. Have we become a society where the last place you really exercise your brain is in grammar school? The average news article on slashdot is little more than a snippet from some tech rag about a new product that everyone loves, usually with an editorial comment tossed in telling everyone how they should feel about it.

I can get that same crap anywhere else. The TV tells me what to think, newspapers and magazines back them up, and slashdot does the same exact thing and is somehow worshipped as a haven for free thinking.

Quality - Why not try out that spellchecker? One word for you slashdot folks: dictionary. Try one on for size. Work on your spelling and grammar, and once those improve I'll attack the quality of your writing.

Consider this - Jon Katz is the best writer on slashdot. If you're familiar with his work, then you might appreciate that, or you might realize how lousy the writing must be if that's the case.

Katz has written some decent articles for slashdot (In particular, his Hellmouth series). But he's too wrapped up in the medium to see what he writes about. He's too busy dropping buzzwords that define his writing more than his actual content.

But the truly amazing thing about him is - almost everyone who reads slashdot hates Katz. They loathe him. The self-proclaimed geeks who read slashdot don't want to be challenged by his writing. There are people who attack every article he writes, regardless of the content.

Depth - unless its the updated release schedule for the new linux kernel or a new game, you're not going to get much repeat coverage on slashdot. And you're not likely to extract much from an article unless you already knew a certain amount of information about the topic. Once again, the exception might be Katz, who writes multi-part articles, but mostly that's because he's a hopeless wheezebag.

The thing that really scares me is that all sorts of little slashdots are popping up all over the web, popular sources of sludge pawned off on the accepting readers, and we readily accept is all as verse. Is this what 200 years of the Industrial Revolution primed us for? 50 years of television? Or was it something else? In my short lifetime I've watched the quality of information sources decline to a point where coverage is simplistic enough that it could be fictionalized and no one would notice the difference. While people ignore the WTO or slaughters in Burundi, Angola, Cambodia, anywhere else to devote coverage to wonder drugs, the newest Internet craze, the Hollywood minute, or any other sort of "News you can use."

And now, in a time when information should be even more readily available, so much of it is crap that finding the gems is rarely worth the shit you need to shovel. The sort of crap you find at slashdot instead of insightful knowledge about this increasingly impersonal, computerized world that we all blithely accept and even embrace.

And that is why slashdot sucks. That website isn't encouraging any free thought, any independent thinking, and certainly not any dissenting viewpoints on the information age. And we all accept it, even 'credible' websites like Wired frequently link to slashdot as their source of expert information and news updates.

If you're not directly connected to the information you want, you're not likely to find anything of depth nowadays. And if you have that sort of connection, then why do you need the web in the first place?

As if cars, skyscrapers, television, mini malls, supermarkets, drugs, war, and McRainForest (brought to you by the Big Mac!) weren't enough, now we have to venture out on the web with millions of other people, and not once challenge out horizons or open our minds.

Willow John

Autodesk Inventor????

[mofodus]

Man, the poor little buggers have to learn Inventor? Man, it would take a couple of months to be able do draw something, let alone design a robot.

Give them a basic package so at least they could get something done. Giving a package like inventor to high school kids is like giving tanks to the high school fencing team.

FIRST from the viewpoint of a HS student

[Arecibe]

FIRST is a wonderful thing. I am currently a high school Junior, and am active in my school's robotics club. Our club is new, and we have competed in TCEA and BEST for the first time this year. Unfortuinantly, my school's robotics club isn't doing FIRST this year, because of the massive time needed to participate in it. My school is very competitive, so most robotics members cannot afford the grade drop FIRST would produce right before college apps. We will participate in Houston's FIRST next year, when our members will mostly be seniors, and have already applied to colleges.

Slightly off topic, but worthy of discussion

[Gavitron_zero]

Has anyone tried to download the new realone player? Apparently for your free account they require not only your address, but your CREDIT CARD #....

What the crap is that all about? It makes me think that Real is trying to simply irritate you into paying 10 bucks for the player...what a scam.

Why Real Sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

I work with a bunch of geeks. And that's okay. They do their thing and I do mine. Most of the time I'm happy for them, that they get joy and happiness out of playing with electronics. Admittedly I disagree with a lot of their thoughts about life. People used to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe, then it was the sun, but now we all know that the computer is the focal point of the universe, projecting its cathode ray goodness on our souls. You can't eat, sleep, breathe, live or run a business without one, or so we're told.

But if there's one thing I have no tolerance for, it's the geek phenomenon known as slashdot.org, the sorriest case for content on the web I've ever seen pawned off and gleefully accepted by the masses.

When I look at magazines, newspapers, or any other source of information, I judge them on three items: usefulness/uniqueness of content, quality of that content, and the depth of coverage regarding that content.

Slashdot has none of these things. And yet people try to convince me that the people who run that website are working hard at it.

Say what?

That's right - when Andover.net filed its IPO, making the editors of Slashdot instant wannabe millionaires, someone in the office said "Those guys put in a lot of hard work, and they deserve the success."

Now, I write code for a living, and I work hard at it, so I have a good idea of how slashdot operates. I guarantee you that the entire website is little more than leftover code from college projects and other unrelated work. At the very best, it is ill-conceived and poorly developed, which explains in part why the interface is so miserably awful, and the site is unbelievably slow.

Let's theorize what goes on in the average day of the slashdot editors:

10:42 AM - get out of bed.
10:45 AM - first Dr Pepper of the day.
10:46 AM - unglue keyboard from desk, check stock market.
10:56 AM - find a few interesting tech stories on the web. This is easy, since users send them to us all the time.
11:04 AM - post said stories to slashdot, disregarding spelling and journalistic impartiality.
11:08 AM - start playing Quake 3 (or whatever the game of the moment is).
3:15 AM - go to sleep.

If I'm wrong about anything, it's that they get up even later than that. And I couldn't figure out what time that order the pizza for dinner. But they have pepperoni on them.

Content - The content of slashdot is, admittedly, targeted towards geeks. But apparently not very smart ones. Regardless of the target audience, the content is never challenging - it never pushes the reader to think. Have we become a society where the last place you really exercise your brain is in grammar school? The average news article on slashdot is little more than a snippet from some tech rag about a new product that everyone loves, usually with an editorial comment tossed in telling everyone how they should feel about it.

I can get that same crap anywhere else. The TV tells me what to think, newspapers and magazines back them up, and slashdot does the same exact thing and is somehow worshipped as a haven for free thinking.

Quality - Why not try out that spellchecker? One word for you slashdot folks: dictionary. Try one on for size. Work on your spelling and grammar, and once those improve I'll attack the quality of your writing.

Consider this - Jon Katz is the best writer on slashdot. If you're familiar with his work, then you might appreciate that, or you might realize how lousy the writing must be if that's the case.

Katz has written some decent articles for slashdot (In particular, his Hellmouth series). But he's too wrapped up in the medium to see what he writes about. He's too busy dropping buzzwords that define his writing more than his actual content.

But the truly amazing thing about him is - almost everyone who reads slashdot hates Katz. They loathe him. The self-proclaimed geeks who read slashdot don't want to be challenged by his writing. There are people who attack every article he writes, regardless of the content.

Depth - unless its the updated release schedule for the new linux kernel or a new game, you're not going to get much repeat coverage on slashdot. And you're not likely to extract much from an article unless you already knew a certain amount of information about the topic. Once again, the exception might be Katz, who writes multi-part articles, but mostly that's because he's a hopeless wheezebag.

The thing that really scares me is that all sorts of little slashdots are popping up all over the web, popular sources of sludge pawned off on the accepting readers, and we readily accept is all as verse. Is this what 200 years of the Industrial Revolution primed us for? 50 years of television? Or was it something else? In my short lifetime I've watched the quality of information sources decline to a point where coverage is simplistic enough that it could be fictionalized and no one would notice the difference. While people ignore the WTO or slaughters in Burundi, Angola, Cambodia, anywhere else to devote coverage to wonder drugs, the newest Internet craze, the Hollywood minute, or any other sort of "News you can use."

And now, in a time when information should be even more readily available, so much of it is crap that finding the gems is rarely worth the shit you need to shovel. The sort of crap you find at slashdot instead of insightful knowledge about this increasingly impersonal, computerized world that we all blithely accept and even embrace.

And that is why slashdot sucks. That website isn't encouraging any free thought, any independent thinking, and certainly not any dissenting viewpoints on the information age. And we all accept it, even 'credible' websites like Wired frequently link to slashdot as their source of expert information and news updates.

If you're not directly connected to the information you want, you're not likely to find anything of depth nowadays. And if you have that sort of connection, then why do you need the web in the first place?

As if cars, skyscrapers, television, mini malls, supermarkets, drugs, war, and McRainForest (brought to you by the Big Mac!) weren't enough, now we have to venture out on the web with millions of other people, and not once challenge out horizons or open our minds.

Willow John

Re:Why Real Sucks

[fuzbuster]

i thought the dude was going to say where i could get a free realone with giving them my credit car #

Hosted at my school

[mizhi]

This is an event every year at Drexel University. It's pretty friggin' cool. You can walk around the displays and watch the teams work on the robots... some of the 'bots are pretty damn impressive too. The next generation of geeks! :-D

Rules too confusing...

[cwhittenburg]

Watching the kickoff event right now-- you know it's screwed up when it takes three hours to explain the competition, and for the adults to get an idea of the rules and how it's scored.

Re:Rules too confusing...

[olin01]

Not really... how long would it take to explain _ALL_ the rules of football? Including those for how the field is marked and constructed and requirements for safety equipment.

Re:Rules too confusing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Before now I had no reason to post, so I never gotten a username and password, so at the moment I am waiting for my password. I don't like all the FIRST bashing taking place here. My brother is onto his third year participating. His first year, he was on the Nortel Networks Team from the Rochester, NY area. Last year and this year he is on the Gleason Works/Fairport High School Team. The past two years he has been the principal programmer, and I suspect that he will be again this year. FIRST, as Dean states, does not include the word "education" in its name. FIRST is an acronym for "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology". As for the time to explain the rules, the actual time to explain the rules for this year's competition took only half an hour plus Q&A time. The time allotted allows for the not quite so important stuff (i.e. Thanking the Nationwide Sponsors [Microsoft, Fed Ex, Disney, etc.]). They've simplified the scoring a little this year, in exchange for a more devious way of getting points. There are 3 moveable goals that are worth 10 points each if they are in your goal zone, at the opposite end of your home zone. Every robot in your home zone is worth 10 points for your team. And every ball in a goal in your goal zone is worth 1 point. Now the devious part is that to maximize your score, you must make sure that your opponent's score stays no more than 1 point below yours, as your final score (if you win the match) is 3 times that of your opponent's score for that match. In addition to the scoring rules, there is a weight limit, and a spending limit (for functional parts). I don't see how that is confusing at all. The most confusing part is how to implement everything. On to the building time issue, my brother's teams were quite involved in building their past robots, and still had late nights towards the end, due to various set backs. The time allotted to build the robots, I feel, is too short for the amount of time the students can put into working on it during those 6 weeks, that is the ONLY thing I find fault with in FIRST, and it is NOT a good enough reason to bash them. FIRST has been around for only about 10 years, so it is still in it's infancy, but with 660 teams it is still growing. As technology changes, so will FIRST, and the FIRST competitions will get more challenging, devious, and interesting as time progresses. Nathanial C. Jones http://www.phantomcow.com

Re:Rules too confusing...

[bonzoesc]

It's a good thing that the students aren't as retarded as the people we send off to get the rules for us. It's all a ploy to get the worthless project-manager type people out of our hair and in another state while we do the most important brainstorming.

For those interested in the parts

[olin01]

For anyone interested in a very basic overview of the parts (possibly below the level of slashdot geeks...), Olin College created a tutorial for new teams at http://first.robotics.olin.edu. Right now, the college's connection seems to be overwhelemed; a mirror is at http://www.logicalrealism.org/first/. It also includes some of the systems discussed in the kickoff, namely the light-sensor tracker and a thrower.

US First, First?

[geoskd]

(By the way, FIRST is what most likely inspired BattleBots)

uhh, Sorry jim, but that's not correct.

-=Eric
www.geoskd.com

Botball

[mturnerb]

On the topic of high school robotics...

I was involved in a high school robotics competition called Botball, organized by the KISS Institute for Practical Robotics. This program involved constructing autonomous robots out of Lego Technic parts, using Interactive C to write programs to control them.

The controller used was MIT's Handyboard, and the Botball game involved collecting ping pong balls and other such items to be depostited in a goal to score points (with various complexities coming into play). One part of the competition was head-to-head; two teams' robots then battled it out to see who could score more points.

The Botball program offers high school students exposure to engineering and software development concepts, as well as problem solving with specific goals and deadlines, all in a team setting. With competition at the regional and national levels, the program is challenging and rewarding for students. And it's a lot of fun too.

OT: Drexel

[linuxonceleron]

I was looking at Drexel for college either next year or the year after (depends on if I can graduate early). I was wondering what the different tracks (IT/Software Engineering/CS/CE) are like. If you have time I'd be interested in your oppinions of them. Thanks.

Re:OT: Drexel

[Anonymous Coward]

The main problem with going to Drexel is all the Penn students spitting on you.

DAMMIT!

[BillyGoatThree]

I live just down the road from Dean Kamen--why wasn't I informed about this competition?? I would love to have seen it live!

Re:DAMMIT!

[RevRigel]

This is just the kickoff where the until-now secret rules and guidelines for this year's competition are unveiled (they change every year). The competition is held later in the spring at Epcot Center in Florida.

Its gonna be fun

[Myuu]

lol...I am actually involved in this. The funny thing is, is that I didn't know the name or the relationship to the Segway creator (I read about the competition without making the connection).

All that I knew is that NASA(?) was giving our school 10,000$ to compete in some competition.

The fun thing is that I am in North Dakota, but our regionals are in St. Louis!(Any LUG meetings there?)

Maybe my teacher will keep her site for us updated.

(No Comment on the logo or motto...I was working that day and missed all of it, so much for tux being on our logo)

No wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

My school was watching the webcast, and wondering how it got so /.ed.

MIT Competition Was Battlebot Inspiration

[AixGE]

MIT's 2.70 (Now called 2.007) is much older than any of the television shows or competitions. It is a contest held by the Mechanical Engineering department.

Rats!

[Crusty Oldman]

Well rats! It's over before I even heard about it. How about an advance notice next time? And how about holding it at some decent hour? 6:00 a.m. pst is just a little early for some of us.

I'm the lucky one.

[pc486]

Not only am I able to participate in FIRST as I'm a highschool student in the program but I get to program the sucker. Working with some wierd assembler parsed language on very limited is going to be fun. Plus, I get to learn a little bit more on the hardware side. Yes, the electronics are given to the team as a kit like structure but the actuall workings are not. Such elements as a zero degree turning radius feature are fun to make and watch. Not to mention moving the cool arms and hydrolics. I'm just hoping that we go to the finals in Florida again like we did the previous two years.

For the Uninformed and the Nay-Sayers

[LightForce3]

As a former FIRST team member, (Go Team 85! Go BOB!) I can say without reservation that this program is excellent. It does just what it was created to do: it inspires students to pursue careers in science and technology.

As many of you probably realize, there's much, much more that goes into a team's season that simply building the robot. Here's a rough breakdown of the 'season':

-Kickoff: The game, the rules, and the items supplied to the teams are described and distributed.
-Design: Students and corporate engineers work together to design a robot that performs the necessary tasks to play the game with the materials they are allowed to use. Concepts become sketches, sketches become designs, designs become blueprints.
Construction: The robot is put together. Students and engineers fabricate the frame and construct the robot. Control, drive, pneumatic, and sensory systems are installed.
Programming: The electronic control system (based on Parallax's BASIC Stamp) is programmed.
Testing and Practice: The robot is tested, and bugs are worked out. Drivers are selected, and practice playing the game.

The ideal final product is a high-performance robotic athlete. This all happens within 6 weeks. The robot is then shipped to be approved for competition.

There's even more that goes on during the pre-competition season. Funds are raised (this isn't cheap, by any means), and community awareness is promoted. On several occasions, my team has taken robots from previous years and visited local elementary and junior-high schools. There are also several non-game awards, such as the Chairman's Award, awards presented by Autodesk, Judge's award, and awards for sportsmanship and community involvement.

The regional and national competitions are some of the most intense and exciting times any engineering or computer science student will ever experience. Besides controlling the robot for the few brief minutes of actual gameplay, students and engineers repair their robot in the Pit, scope out their competition and potential allies, and support the team from the stands. No two robots are the same; some do one part of the game better, others are good all-around. Each team's robot has a different way of getting the job done, despite the fact that each team received the same materials from the Kickoff.

The competition is fierce. There are stellar victories and crushing defeats. However, the fun and friendliness between opponents is (in most cases) preserved.

This is only a short and rather poor description of FIRST. To get a more whole picture, talk with students and engineers who have participated/are participating in FIRST. There's a very good chance that there's a team at a high school near you!

Now, addressing some of those whose experiences and opinions are not similar to mine (the arguments):

Concerning DeadBugs' "What They Really Learn"

I am sorry to learn that this is how your team works. Your team is missing the point of FIRST by miles. The idea behind FIRST is that the students do most of the designing and creation, and the engineers help and guide them. Some robots in the competition are 75% or more student-built. And yes, these robots can do very well (3rd place nationals). IMHO, your team needs evaluate itself in light of the ideas and purposes of FIRST, and get on the right track.

Concerning cwhittenburg's "Learn more from Junkyard Wars"

First, the teams are most definitely not provided with all the parts they need. Far from it. Teams must purchase much of the items and supplies that are used to construct the robot. The team can also pick and choose which items from the supplied kit they will use on their robot. One of the kit's major purposes is to ensure that robots are not too dissimilar. With the items that are supplied to the teams, the team has several different types of each basic item from which to choose. Continuing with your analogy, this is similar to being provided with several different engines, several different transmissions, several different wheels, etc. It's up to the team to get all these to work together. Also, some items can be significantly modified and customized.

Second, some robots are, very unfortunately, designed, constructed, and programmed mostly by the professional engineers on a team instead of the students. This is contrary to the ideas and purposes behind FIRST. (See above response to "What They Really Learn")

That's my perspective, as a former FIRST Team member and a current senior in high school. The only reason I'm not involved now is the fact that I don't have enough free time to devote myself to extracurricular activities. I'd jump without hesitation at the chance to become involved again.

--LightForce3

Comments/Replies appreciated

Re:For the Uninformed and the Nay-Sayers

[beowulfshaeffer]

Whaddya mean? Corporate engineers. My team doesn't have any stinking corporate engineers. It is quite possible to have a design made that does not involve any engineers.

A tip to any FIRST team member reading this, don't use very much steel. It's too heavy.

MIT Robots

[heliocentric]

But why does everyone think media hyped robot vs. robot competitions were the start of things? MIT for years put students against students building robots from the same set of materials for the battle arena of who can collect the most ping-pong balls. This competition was great, it was not only interesting, but the behind the scences views of the creators working on their robot setups, and the insight into strategy* was also interesting. The modern day over hyped, cartoonized naming, and street fighter-esq "battles" are so crappy compared to the good MIT battles. Anyone remember when the top builders from MIT went to China to work in teams of two (one MIT'er one Chinese) to get around a language barrior to develop robots?

* - there seemed to be two prevailing strategies: one was to put as many ping-pong balls into your base/hole/area/whatever the other was to put just a few (sometimes just one) and then block your opponents ability to put any (or few) into their base/hold/area/whatever.

I am on team #365

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got back from my team's (365) kickoff at the Dupont explorer post in Wilmington, DE. This game looks like a combination of the 2000 and the 2001 game. GO MOE!!

thoughts on game?

[wintermute512]

I'm not sure yet what i think about this year's game. I'm glad it's not happy-friendly coop again, but the game seems uninspired and aimed more towards simple mass entertainment. I guess Disney is going to be putting together a movie about it for broadcast, so maybe it will be better publiced.
Speaking as a member of last years co-champions (team 125 w00t!), I've found the program very inviting scalable according to interest. It gets a little boged down by all the philosophy Dean and Woodie spiel out in thier speaches/lectures, but then again he might have a point. I love the retro dance music at competitions too.
You can't realy get an idea about what the competitions are like without being there, and i'd advise all you hardware geeks out there to drop by at any local competitions and check it out.

Team 98

[lostchicken]

I am the captain of FIRST Team 98, Dallas, TX.

We will not be able to compete this year.

You see, we are one of the few teams without any form of engineering support from a large corporation. All we have is some donated framing. We have been able to survive until this year, because the requirements for registration were just to sign up. Now there is a 'point' system to even get on a waiting list. It is almost impossible to get in if you don't WIN a regional match. That means you must enter many, many regionals to have a good shot at nationals.

These registrations cost a very large amount of money. In the past, registration for nationals was $6,000, and regionals were about the same. To have a fair shot of getting in, I have calculated that my team must spend at least $15-20k in registrations alone. The robot would cost another $4,000, far exceeding my school's $12,000 budget for the team.

I'm sure we could find a NASA, United Tech, or Delphi sponsor for engineering, but then we would no longer do most of the work. We decided that the best way to go was sponsor-less, in the hopes that we would recieve experience in building the thing, as we did last year. It was a great learning experience, and great fun too.

We now must decide what to do. Sell out, or close shop. Rest in peace, US FIRST.

Re:Team 98

[Anonymous Coward]

l4me. j00 5uck f00l

Re:Team 98

[Anonymous Coward]

J00 r l4m3 7#0/\/\45 b4rr

Re:Team 98

[Anonymous Coward]

Sparky:
Shove it.
(oh, by the way, what's your current e-mail address?)

Really it all comes from MIT's 2.70/2.007 course

[gessel]

2.70 is the famous "robot competition" that started it all. It's now called 2.007 and is taught to freshmen. Students get a box of parts, learn engineering, documentation, design, and test their designs in competition. The winner gets an A.

Professor Alexander Slocum currently teaches it, Prof. Woody Flowers taught it previously.

The finals are generally carried on PBS.

Re:Really it all comes from MIT's 2.70/2.007 cours

[LightForce3]

Prof. Woodie Flowers is also the co-founder of FIRST. Think there's a connection? :)

Not just robotics

[clubin]

I participated in FIRST competitions for three years-- as a part of MAST Academy/Cordis's (Cordis == a Johnson&Johnson co.) team, Cordzilla --and, while building robots is an important part of the event, it is only one of two competitions: engineering/robotics and computer animation.

My three years of experience have been in the comp. anim. team, experimenting with modeling, animation, and texturing & lighting. The competition gives students a chance to get their hands on top quality modeling/animation software ("educational" version, and full if you win; I dunno what the difference is) legitamitely. That is, of course, in addition to team ethic, a trip to Orlando with a Disney inter-park pass, and so on, which I picked up from my time in it as well.

Sounds like BEST?

[bstreiff]

A similar program that my high school participated in can be found here: http://www.bestinc.org/

Similar rules seem to apply.

Winning Design Strategy

[spoonboy42]

I was in FIRST a couple of years ago. My school wound up in about the middle of the pack in the Michigan state finals in Pontiac. The winning team had a brilliant design for manipulating the playground balls that are central to the game.

If anyone out there is planning on competing, DON'T USE A CLAW DESIGN. It's not reliable, and it's quite slow, as well. Instead, go with the simpler and much more effective "loop" design. Build two metal circles just a bit wider than the ball's diameter and cover them with the red, grippy textured rubber that comes in the construction kits. Then, mount the two circles an inch or two apart at the end of your manipulation arm, and put a pneumatic pump inside the arm with some more of the grip material at the end of the piston. To move balls, just get the loops over the ball, then activate the pump to lock it in place. This will work much better than a claw which, despite looking really cool, will very frequently drop the ball when jarred.

Re:Really it all comes from MIT's 2.70/2.007 cours

[abelenky17]

While you're mostly correct that 2.70/2.007 started it all, theres an important step you left out.

2.70 is from the Mechanical Engineering Dept,
with the emphasis on Mechanical Design.

The Comp.Sci/Electrical Eng. department picked up on the idea and created a class called "6.270".
They also created the Handyboard and Interactive C. The emphasis is a balance between mechanical systems, electrical sensors, and programming autonomous interactive systesm.

The 6.270 equipment later formed the foundation of Lego Mindstorms.

(P.S. When I write that a "department" created something, it should be noted that it was really the outstanding contributions of several truly dedicated and talented individuals. Unfortunately, I don't remember all their names anymore... but I'm thankful for their effort anyway. I still have my hand-assembled Handyboard, and work with it regularly)

Money saving tip

[Dr. Mutex]

...but it got too expensive to fly up there and have Fedex destroy our equipment.

The US Postal Service will do a much better job of destroying your equipment, at a lower cost.