Slashdot Mirror
Bad eBay Experience Spurs Internet Manhunt
An anonymous reader submitted an entertaining story running on the
Chicago Trib that discusses a fraudulent eBay dealer, and the
tale of his victims
tracking him down. Nothing super technical, just amusing to read
and remember that while sometimes the crooks get away, sometimes they
become the hunted. My favorite part is when they call his mom. Man
I'd love to do that to people who DoS us :)
Recently I was defrauded on Ebay myself. It was only $6.00, but I really wanted the diapers I was buying. Well, he used an Earthlink account, and I called Earthlink, and was able to get his phone number. I recieved my diapers the next day. :)
These frauds ought to be hunted down! Credit cards companies don't help, police don't help, banks don't help, ebay certainly doesn't help, so these people did the right thing and took it into their own hands. Congratulations to them!
Derek Greene
Which can get into ticklish legal ground. I can see the lawsuits now.
which doesn't mean it wasn't effective. I mean calling the guy's mothers. How would you like that as a motivation to pay your bills?
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
He should have stolen an iMac instead. We all know these aren't that tech savvy people.
Oh wait...
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
One of the things I love about the Internet and almost all of the communities that arise are the "commando" types that they engender.
Slashdot certainly has a very deoted commando group, but I'm a little surprised to see eBay having one that is so aggressive. Good for them, I guess. Typically these sorts of people are just annoying.
This guy does seem to be pretty scummy. I've done a _lot_ of stuff on eBay and have never been burned. Is that unusual? I haven't really heard of many people getting screwed by sellers. Typically buyers not sending money, which isn't such a big deal.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Seriously, if I just shelled out 3 grand for a notebook, I would consider it a veritable slap-in-the-face if eBay only compensates me 200 bucks (minus 25 dollar deductible, US$175 really) for a auction that they made money on, and that they insure.
I don't see many things wrong with this situation, only the fact that this is a testament to the power of groups and anonymity. Here you have a gander of people screwed by a common guy, united at first, then when this starts rolling all the l33t hax0rs come out of the woodwork to "help", asking for the guys CC number, SSN, and a host of other info.
I don't think I like that type of behavior. Although due process doesn't always work, we have it for a reason. Sure in a few isolated and clear cut cases like this it's easy for all of us to look at it and say "Well they got the bad guy, good for them.", but at the same time the mob mentality something like this can foster isn't pretty. What if they had fingered the wrong guy, what could have been done? You can be sure you wouldn't have been able to convince them otherwise.
Sigs are awesome huh?
How exactly did they get so much information about a guy just from an Ebay transaction?
They probably knew:
- His email address
- First and Last Name
- Phone Number (if legit)
His Meatworld address was fake. But if the phone number was real, you maybe can get a real address. But even so, how did they randomly break into his email? Password spoofers? and get his SSN and credit card info?
Was the guy sloppy maybe?
------------- I didn't know she was your sister I swear!
*puts on Flame Proof Suit*
Imagine how the people who get Slashdotted feel ;)
-- Dan
The fool (supposedly) shipped it via plain parcel post and no small wonder, it went missing. Rather than own up to it, and realize he made a mistake he figured it'd be easier to hang me out to dry.
Needless to say, I cancelled the credit card transaction (got my money back fine) but refused to stop there.
I sicked Discover, USPS, eBay, Billpoint/PayPal, FBI and other agencies on him for interstate mail fraud, credit card fraud, etc.
I also turned up some things in my own research - wife's name, address, phone number, etc. But the best part was having actual aerial photos of his HOUSE!
Yep, gotta love the Internet. :)
..next time we see auctions for 75 laptops from one seller, lets look up his info and just go steal them. Much better end result. Free Laptops.
Couldn't you make a game out of this??? A few try to do certain things on the internet (purchasing items, trading at E-Bay etc. etc.) and others (the whole community for all I care) have to track them down... some new form of reality tv... allow everything including hacking, cracking and lying but be aware for things such as threatening family members and friends, but I guess it could prove some great entertainment if only one could device a way to show it all... I don't think a few images of hackers on tv is that exciting...
"We live in our minds, and existance is the attempt to bring that life into physical reality" Ayn Rand
If he had their check and hadn't cashed it yet, couldn't they have called the bank and told them that the check should be cancelled/declared void or something?
- Nothing is true, everything is permitted
One of these posses will go too far and lynch the wrong guy soon. If you were a thief and knew about the possibility of retribution from angry geeks, wouldn't you set up a patsy? I know I would.
From the article:
But like vigilante gangs of the American frontier, ad hoc communities seeking justice on the electronic frontier sometimes trample the very laws they seek to enforce, as their quest for justice warps into a plot for revenge.
"You just end up with might makes right," said Jonathan Zittrain, co-director of the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School.
I think it is generally possible to track down anyone you're dealing with if you put in a bit of effort. The problem is, when I had a fraud issue, I tracked the person down in Romania! Ok, so now what the hell do I do? Grumble and move on...
Well of course it is better to contact law enforcement agencies! They really know how to get the job done!
Of course that's all bullshit. I wish the article had elaborated on legal action the AZ DA might take against the vigilantes. That will probably pan out to a prosecution. Ever notice how law enforcement will frequently go after people for criminal charges when they were victimized, but not really make an effort towards the original perpetrators?
Look at this situation. These people were told to fill out some forms, and wait 30 days to complain to eBay and maybe get about 200$ (a fraction of what all of them were scammed). Law enforcement agents simply do not know how to handle cybercrime. They would have sat on their asses, wondering how they were going to find this guy who committed fraud... and after a short while of not making any progress, move it off to the back burner.
Now of course, they have a big, huge, easy to nail target in the form of this group of people demanding justice. It's nonsense.
I think it's silly that provisions aren't in place that allow people to non-violently pursue people who screw them over. This was not always something that made sense in the "real world" because people address people face to face. They make deals with handshakes, and if someone is screwed over IRL, they probably had some physical interaction.
The Internet however, a place where a great deal of anonyminity may be gained, where law enforcement is apathetic towards real criminals, people should be allowed to take a few steps over the line. So long as there is a clear motive as to why they're digging on the wire that multiple people can attest to. Why shouldn't this group's behavior be legal?
Why bother.
This is why English needs aspected tenses - I think they meant people who launch DoS attacks against it, not necessarily succeeding in bringing it down, but being a pain nonetheless.
sic transit gloria mundi
This is something I wrote up for someone who'd just been ripped off by an Ebay hardware seller. Feel free to reproduce it elsewhere. Yes, I do occasionally buy hardware on Ebay (albeit very carefully!) and no, I've not yet been ripped off. By following my own advice, I hope to avoid it permanently. :)
***
I've spent a LOT of time digging around for hardware (and other stuff) on Ebay, and have read a lot in and asked around in many of the user forums there, and have reached several conclusions about hardware sellers:
The ones who do so regularly are *usually* frauds to some degree, or at least rip-off artists (selling known-junk for too much $$) and are typically difficult if you get a DOA or misrepresented part. The ones who only sell the occasional one-off component are usually okay, or at least aren't selling bad stuff intentionally.
ALWAYS read ALL of a seller's negative feedback before bidding. This means going to vrane.com (http://www.vrane.com/ef.html) and using the "search feedback" form (which BTW is rigged so you can save it and use it locally, it still calls what it needs from the server) to inspect ALL of a seller's NEGATIVE FEEDBACK. Good vendors won't have more than 0.15% negative feedback. More than 0.3% negative feedback is a redflag; more than 1.0% is invariably a bad dealer or a con artist. Positive feedback numbers and content CAN be rigged via the "penny auctions"
loophole, so in itself is fairly useless.
ALWAYS read ALL of the "NEGATIVE FEEDBACK LEFT FOR OTHERS" *by* any seller you intend to deal with. How they respond to their own bad deals is a *VERY* good indicator of how they'll be to work with in the event that what they send you is defective or is not as represented.
Sellers who use *L00K* and/or bogus phrases in their item titles (just WTF is "emulator friendly" anyway??!) are the ebay equivalent of spammers. I no longer even view items with such titles.
ALWAYS check regular online vendor outlets, Pricewatch, etc, first. Typically, used hardware sold on Ebay winds up going for 150% of the new retail price, just because most people have no clue what components really sell for. (I've seen used HDs go for 300% of retail, and used memory going for TEN TIMES the local new price!!)
Sellers who start every auction with "$1.00" prices are more likely to be "pros" at this auction business than those who start with something realistic. See above re those who sell hardware regularly on ebay.
ALWAYS email the seller prior to bidding, and ask some question about the item, even if you already know the answer. The tone of the response you get can tell you plenty about how they'll be to deal with. If you get NO response, "go look it up yourself" or a CANNED response, DON'T BID.
If they take ONLY cash, cashiers checks, or money orders for hardware, DON'T BID.
BTW for categories other than hardware, the above all apply except that there are good sellers of other stuff who do it all the time.
***
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
heh heh... some years ago i used to be an administrator at a well-known website that catered to users of a certain platform and we had a forum at that site. of course we had a few punkassbitch users who could never behave on the forum and they were invariably teeniepoopers living off the fat of the land (parent's house). i'd get their personal info and call their moms. hoooo ha, now *that's* entertainment!
I don't think they are under any obligation to pay you for a bad sale, no more than the newspaper classifieds are. Their fraud protection program is clearly identified, and they are there to facilitate sales. I think buyer beware is implicit in any sort of auction site.
I have only been burned once, for a moderately small amount, but I learned quickly to avoid money order transactions and be aware of a buyer's online rating. A buyer's feedback is the best way to protect yourself, and paying with a credit card is even better (if the buyer allows it).
I like PayPal, but I don't think you get the credit card protection because you were not ripped off by the merchant who made the charge (PayPal), so I don't see how you could have very good cause for stopping payment. Has anyone ever gotten their money back from a bad PayPal transaction?
Needless to say, having directions to his house (and obviously his address) was pretty shocking to him - but sending him aerial shots of his house kind of unnerved him... Heh.
I've used ebay to both buy and sell... everything I've sold has sold for much higher than I anticipated- some of it sold for more than I could be purchased NEW!
On one hand, there is the concept of WINNING- that people lose sight of how much they are spending on an item. Next people forget about shipping- which can cost as much as the item itself.
People are also cost conscious, and usually do not want to pay extra for escrow or shipping insurance... which makes little sense if you consider many people packing merchandise are far from shipping pros.
Also, there is usually no return policy at ebay... one person's "like new" condition is another person's, "almost trash," and some sellers don't even know what they are selling (ie. a photo of a Slot 1 CPU listed as a socket chip), blah, blah, blah.
Bottom line, the mantra at ebay true is "buyer beware." I think it is great these people are going after this seller, but the fact remains, if they were truly safety conscious buyers, they could have taken additional steps to protect their purchase. I wouldn't blame ebay for only reimbursing $200. If they guaranteed every purchase, it would actually encourage fraud!
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
that the usual evil-government-electronic-surveilance paranoids will not care that a group of vigilantes can fuck up somebodies (real) life - guilty or not.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
You don't send a guy $3000 with a payment method you can't stop for a product you've never laid eyes on. If the guy won't take a check and won't take payment through an escrow service, screw it. It's not worth the risk.
eBay didn't do anything wrong here.
Speaking as one of the people having been ripped off by this seller, I just want to note that this "seller" was a complete asshole. A few weeks after not sending any of us merchandise, he claimed his mother passed away, a claim later proven false when we spoke to her. What a jerk.
Considering that the police will hunt them down all the same, if they're going to look for a patsy, they're going to look for a patsy even if it's the police instead of a vigilante comittee.
Just because it's the government doing the work, doesn't keep them from trying/punishing the wrong people. That's a myth in and of itself.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
While I'm sure the people involved were justified in their efforts, when you start playing games with credit cards, you're getting into some pretty murky legal waters yourself.
I personally feel that ebay should be insuring for the full value of the auction, and should charge a percentage on the sale for insurance costs. Of course, seller (or buyer) could choose to not purchase insurance, but at least it would put some pressure on ebay to handle huge cases of fraud if they happened.
Pay with credit cards if you can. Granted, there's a fee involved but the credit card companies in most cases will reimburse you if you're defrauded.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I can't help but strongly agree with this post. As a proponent of reason and "not being stupid" this make the most sense of any post here. I've used Ebay for years, I will testify that I have never been burned. I've always used escrow, paypal, or before that COD or Check only.
Now, as for the vigelante justice dished out by the poor saps who got screwed. If you put that time into working at your most likely professional jobs, you'd make the money back quickly, but I understand the logic behind this. So for that, I'd say hell yes, get the guy. They screwed up by paying him, but I think they acted properly to right their mistakes. This is a wrong vs wrong debate, but the people who got screwed should at least be allowed to have a little fun. Loved the calling his mommy, that must have REALLY freaked him out! (I used to call efnet kiddie's parents to stop channel take overs, it really works)
ok.. ob story.
me: Hi, my name is , are you currently aware of what your son is doing on tyhe Internet right now?
mom: Uh, no, he's upstairs playing games I think.
me: Well, you may be a bit shocked to know that he's actually trying to be a "hacker". I feel he is just misguided, but he's causing a great deal of stress for me and my collegues.
mom: (off the phone) "!! JAMES YOU GET DOWN HERE.. NOW!!!!!" (you know those Demonic voices in movies...like that)
Kid: Hello?
me: ownt
2 minutes later we have our channel back.
ok, anyways that's my 2.9
Q. What's it take to get a story posted on
I would tend to disagree, although you are absolutely right and people should be careful with their money. However, outright screwing people over cannot be justified. If I leave my door unlocked that doesn't give anybody the right to rob me.
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
I do a lot of business over mail, phone and e-mail, and I generally charge a standard rate for shipping (depending on what's ordered, whatever,) and it's always more than the actual shipping cost. The extra amount I consider the handling fee- and it takes a lot of handling to get a shipment through.
Remember that it's the shipper's responsibility to do things like spend hours on the phone with the freight service and various other folks trying to take care of damage claims, should that be necessary.
Generally, the fee on the lower-cost, easy shipments subsidizes the higher-cost, weird, major pain in the ass type of shipments.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I had a guy threaten me several months ago because I wouldn't forward a post he wrote to a mailing I moderate (on a software topic: Adobe GoLive) in part because it was belligerant. Eventually, I banned him. He then threatened that he'd "get me."
Well, this was pre-Sept. 11, but I thought, I don't know where he lives, I don't know how crazy he is. I had his name and his email address. I sent a note to the system administrator of the address noting that threatening email had been sent from that location. (Turned out to be his work address.) I also used Switchboard.com to get his phone number.
I called. I got what I thought was his mom (I assumed he was about 18 up to that point), but turned out to be his wife. I said, if I received any additional communication or anything happened to me or my systems, I would be reporting him to his local police and FBI. She said she's pass the message on.
A few days later I get email begging me to never get in touch with him again. I felt slightly bad: did I want him to lose his job? No. But I didn't want to worry about about a random crazy (who turned out to live about 1,000 miles away) who might hack my systems or my body up.
Freelance tech journalist for the Economist, MIT Technology Review, Macworld, and others
eBay screams "caveat emptor", if the seller rips you off, eBay says "ebay is only a venue" and won't get inolved. If you use Paypal and get ripped off, paypal will turn around and take the money from your account due to 'investigation'.
eBay is full of scumbags and ripoff artists because they know they have a safe haven there to operate. The very worst thing that can happen to a fradulent seller is that ebay can close their account ('not a registered user'). This will usually only happen once the users' feedback rating drops to (-4), meaning they get ample opportunity to rip people off before getting canned. Then they can just sign up again under another name and start all over.
The real hallmark is ripoff types who become a cottage industry: start off selling something cheap and easy, and rack up a few good positive feedbacks. That gives you lots of space before that (-4) limit. Then just switch to selling bigger-ticket items (laptops, etc) and rip everyone off until ebay shuts you down. Use a hotmail address for the email, and put in phoney addresses and phone numbers in the contact info and you're untraceable.
Great ebay scam techniques:
You're right, but eBay didn't do the screwing.
Someone stole my credit card number awhile back and decided to purchase 3 plane tickets with it. Luckily the airline called me right away and asked if it was OK since the people went to the counter with the card number WRITTEN DOWN on paper.
:)
The airline was nice enough to give me their names though, and I used several sites to get their phone numbers, addresses, aerial photos of their houses, and 2 of their actual photos. I printed all of the info out and I'm planning on sending it to them with a note that says they better watch who they fuck with. I should probably make a nice death scene with photoshop and their pictures in it also.
Or, I could just call my friend who works on a horse ranch, and have him get me a head from a dead horse, and I could send it to them.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
kinda sounds like what the troll hunters on the anandtech forums do when someone gets ripped off.. they often hunt down people and generally make life miserable for people who don't follow through with online trade deals..
I sometimes deal with this ebay seller. She's as honest as they come -- she once sent me an unrequested refund because I overpaid her for shipping. She has ten thousand positive ratings. But she has 11 negative ratings. She does a lot of repeat business, so her positive count probably won't get much higher. But there are always bad buyers who think nothing's their fault. If she attracts 90 of those before she gets 1,000 new satisified customers, she meets your definition of "bad dealer or con artists." That's totally unfair.
And your notions of how sellers can inflate their ratings don't make any sense either. Hundreds of positive ratings from a single user would be a dead giveaway -- and wouldn't affect your rating. So you'd have to create hundreds of bogus users. I suppose that's doable with scripts. But if you're that good, you can conduct hundreds of auctions for nonexistent merchandise and sell it to yourself at inflated prices. That's not something you could detect by filtering out low bids.
But let's just say I'm wrong, and that you can fake a lot of positives. Then it makes no sense to use percentages at all! If you can always add more positives, then you can always bring your negative percentage down.
I don't think it makes sense to rely on statistics in any form. You have to get a sense of who you're dealing with. That's not something that shows up through numbers and rules-of-thumb.
And although outright fraud gets the headlines, the big hazard of buying on ebay is not crooks but flakes. And those are pretty easy to detect.
You want to know what I think? I think he didn't send it at all. Maybe I'm just cynical. After all, we receive at least two or three phone calls at the ISP I work for every week from people who say they'd send us a cheque if we hook them up today. Of course, if we go and believe them (like we used to for a short tine), it never happens. And if we don't believe them and let them know they can always drop by the office in person, that never happens either.
The difference between what people *say* and what people *do* is often quite large. Especially when we're talking about people like this.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert