Vibrating Controller Alert

mgibbs writes: "According to this article at the BBC, all those game consoles with vibrating controllers can be hazardous to your health. This would have been nice to know before all those hours killing The Flood in HALO; and here I thought all those pins and needles were from the exciting game play."

Comments

What next -- warning labels on Playboy?

[InterruptDescriptorT]

WARNING: The Surgeon General (in conjunction with Jocelyn Elders) has determined that masturbation, while an enjoying, normal and healthy activity, can cause carpal tunnel syndrome in practiced too frequently with the arm and wrist in a non-ergonomic position.

Mark my words; I'll bet we see that someday...

Re:What next -- warning labels on Playboy?

[!Xabbu]

Not to mention the friction marks on your willy after masterbating 7 hours a day.

Re:What next -- warning labels on Playboy?

[Fishstick]

Crippled masturbator sues and wins!

When a Florida phone-sex worker developed carpal tunnel syndrome in each of her busy hands, she took the case to court. Now she gets her satisfaction from workers' compensation checks.


...and they say the american legal system doesn't work anymore!

I play...

[DanThe1Man]

theewse gammesss alll the ttimme anddd I'mmm ffine.

7 hours a day?

[!Xabbu]

If your child is spending 7 hours a day in front of a console I really think you need to work on your parenting skills. A TV isn't a baby sitter. Let them spend hours and hours staring blankly at a screen when they become old enough to know better.

Re:7 hours a day?

[Tetrad69]

Not to mention that doing pratically ANYTHING seven hours a day is bad for your health. Repetitive stress disorders, and all that nonsense.

Only one case?

[nizo]

Thus spake the article:

Doctors are calling for vibrating computer game controllers to carry health warnings after a teenager developed a painful condition known as hand-arm vibration syndrome.

They are basing this freaking out on one single case??? Perhaps a study is in order, anyone want to get paid to play games all day? :-)

Re:Only one case?

[nomadic]

No, they're basing it on that one case plus a long history of similar cases in industry. If you handle a vibrating machine for long periods of time, you may run into problems, no matter if it's a jackhammer or a game controller.

Well....

[Carik]

Perhaps this kid should have been doing other things than just playing video games. And maybe he should have been a bit more intelligent. Let's see:

1) He spent SEVEN hours per day playing games. Apparently for upwards of two years. This seems to indicate psychological issues in addition to physical ones. This should have been a warning sign, and someone (his parents, maybe?) should have gotten him to go do something else occasionally.

2) He waited TWO FULL YEARS before seeking medical help. If you've got a problem like that, I could see waiting a month; after all, it could just be a fluke. But two years?

Sorry folks, the kid's an idiot, and his parents aren't paying enough attention to keep him from hurting himself, possibly permanently. Keep this in mind: stupidity can be harmful to your health.

-Carik

Moderation

[DarkZero]

Isn't doing ANYTHING for seven hours straight every single day hazardous to your health? This is more of a fact of life than a problem with video game systems.

Re:Moderation

[pangloss]

ah yes. and that explains the health of eight-hour work-a-day adults around the world, eh? ;)

or those crazy teenagers who sleep for seven hours in a day?

Re:Moderation

[sporty]

Thus the old adage (s?), "You keep doing that and you'll go blind." :)

Re:Moderation

[sam_handelman]

Like steering wheels, computer keyboards and exercise routines, engineering - this sort of engineering goes by various names that obscure its real nature - principles could be applied to make the video game controller less or non-harmful to use for seven hours a day. There may very well be a minor problem with the controllers themselves causing carpal tunnel, which should be studied, and if it is a problem, serious pressure needs to be brought to bear on the videogame industry to redesign the controllers, or to spend some of their massive profits to educate the public.

I seriously doubt that the vibration function has anything to do with it; it is more mild than what is experienced in those vibrating chairs, and they're safe. This BBC article is lazy, slipshod, sensationalist journalism reporting the ramblings of a lazy, incompetent, statistically ignorant medical doctor. They're proposing requiring warning labels (which I support generally, but they become meaningless if they're on everything) based on a single anecdote, a study with N = 1! It gives careful doctors with legimiate concerns and solid data a bad reputation when jerks like him are handed a soap box by the media.

Re:Moderation

[DarkZero]

Playing a video game for seven hours or more in a single day is something every Final Fantasy fan has experienced the day after the game comes out. It isn't really a problem in most cases, as it's usual something that gamers only do once every one or two months. The real problem here was that the kid was doing it EVERY DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, which is unfathomable even for gaming "addicts".

Re:Moderation

[DarkZero]

I thought of the "eight hour work day" reply when I posted. I figured most people would realize that there's a HUGE difference between an employee working for eight hours and a gamer playing a video game for seven hours. For one thing, there's the amount of work being put into those hours. An employee tries to, on average, minimize the amount of work that they're doing, take as many bathroom breaks as possible, etc. An employee also usually gets a half hour to an hour to break for lunch, as well as two days off every week. Now let's look at the gamer, using what we know about gamers and what we know about this kid. Gamers don't intentionally dawdle and "slack off" while gaming. They'll sit there at the game for the entire seven hours playing almost nonstop, with the only breaks being quick two minute bathroom breaks before running back to the game. They also usually don't break for lunch, either. And most importantly, this kid didn't seem to be taking days off, like the two days off that most employees get. He was playing "seven hours a day", and probably every day. Working eight hours per day is much less stressful to the physical appendage (in this case, the fingers, hand, and wrists) being used during the work than gaming for seven hours is. Gaming has less breaks, more determination put into it, and in this kid's case, a lack of the two days off per week that an employee usually has at their job.

Re:Moderation

[DarkZero]

I'm sorry, this should have been spaced: I thought of the "eight hour work day" reply when I posted. I figured most people would realize that there's a HUGE difference between an employee working for eight hours and a gamer playing a video game for seven hours. For one thing, there's the amount of work being put into those hours. An employee tries to, on average, minimize the amount of work that they're doing, take as many bathroom breaks as possible, etc. An employee also usually gets a half hour to an hour to break for lunch, as well as two days off every week. Now let's look at the gamer, using what we know about gamers and what we know about this kid. Gamers don't intentionally dawdle and "slack off" while gaming. They'll sit there at the game for the entire seven hours playing almost nonstop, with the only breaks being quick two minute bathroom breaks before running back to the game. They also usually don't break for lunch, either. And most importantly, this kid didn't seem to be taking days off, like the two days off that most employees get. He was playing "seven hours a day", and probably every day. Working eight hours per day is much less stressful to the physical appendage (in this case, the fingers, hand, and wrists) being used during the work than gaming for seven hours is. Gaming has less breaks, more determination put into it, and in this kid's case, a lack of the two days off per week that an employee usually has at their job.

Hazardous!

[ZaBu911]

Oh no!

I guess I shouldn't jack off with the controller anymore.

Re:Hazardous!

[Banjonardo]

Hey, the rumble pack was cool! I remember when smash brothers would make it rumble non-stop. (pausing the game would end it.)

Think I paused?

Re:7 hours / day

[Peyna]

Most people work for 8 hours a day. Assembly line workers do the same thing for 8 hours a day plus.

Re:7 hours / day

[Moonshadow]

Most people work for 8 hours a day. Assembly line workers do the same thing for 8 hours a day plus

And they come home aching at the end of the day. My girlfriend works in retail, and comes home frequently quite unwilling to stand if at all possible. The fact of the matter is, repeated activity (IE, not sleeping) for prolonged periods of time can have adverse effects.

Heck, even sleeping can be hard on you. Anyone else ever made a transatlantic flight? The 7 hours in a seat (Even 1st class) is murder.

Crap

[PureRain]

I think this is a little more than just the vibration. What about, for example, people who mow lawns for a living - that's a shitload more vibration than a measly little 2v DC motor with a off-centre lead weight. Not only that, but think of all the guys in the 'old days' operating vibrating machinery.
I think that it's the whole concept of keeping his hands wrapped in the same position all day, using only the same muscles that caused it. Think of the stress on his eyes, staring at a TV all day. It's nothing but a wakeup notice that he should get a life.

From the article...

[CaptainSuperBoy]

Injuries associated with the use of computers or their accessories include joystick digit, mouse elbow and central palmar blister on the inside of the hand.

Joystick digit? Mouse elbow? This stuff is hilarious! How about CTRL-ALT-DEL-overextended-finger?

Some links

[soulcuttr]

I've been hearing about this sort of thing the last week or so in the news. Though with the amount my game-junkie friends and I play games you'd think it would have hit us by now. Anyway, here's a couple of other links to similar stories.

• Zdnet (weird link, I know)
• ThisIsLondon

But then if I know my health experts, and I think I do (cough...eggs...cough), next year they'll tell us how vibrating controllers are good for us.

Seven hours isn't much

[gad_zuki!]

I'm not a gamer, but when I was a teenager living in the suburbs playing videogames took most of my time because of the lack of anything else going on. Yes, I did my homework and all that fun stuff, but when you're a teenager (a the person in the article is) you've got free time coming out the ass.

I don't think its a sign of bad parenting to let your kids do something they enjoy. Sure videogames are truly a time waster but finishing that RPG on my Master System or whatever was fun and rewarding.

Re:Seven hours isn't much

[elmegil]

There's a lot more to life than being 'intellectually stimulated'. Playing outside exercises ALL of the body, including your brain (it doesn't take book learnin but it definitely takes smarts to play ball and win; even just wandering through the woods exposes you to a lot of reality that helps you know more about the world). Seems to me this is common sense, and doesn't need a scientific study any more than the recent "Smog causes Athsma" silliness.

Re:Seven hours isn't much

[!Xabbu]

In this day and age of obesity and general unfitness of north america's children I think we need to spend more time getting our kids out to the park or into a sports league of some sort to keep them healthy. Our kids are getting fat spending their time staring blankly at the computer screens all day.. I know.. I'm one of those kids! I spent hours as a kid watching TV, playing video games and futzing on the computer. It was great.. I came home at 3:30.. watched after school cartoons until mom made dinner at 5:30. Went back to it after... maybe did a little homework then hopped on the computer for the rest of the night... EVERY DAY. I'm not saying my parents where bad parents, far from it, but had they spent more time forcing me into trying better things for me I think I would lead less of a seditary lifestyle today. Something that I am deasperately trying to get away from these days.

Jim

One datapoint isn't valid statistical inference.

[Kaz Kylheku]

There is no statistically valid reason to conclude that the boy's condition is caused by the use of a vibrating game controller. That boy is a sample of one. Of course the idiotic media love to dig up the slightest piece of bad news and blow it out of proportion.

What you need is random sampling of many game players to see whether there is a statistical correlation between use of a vibrating controller and the health symptoms related to vibration. And of course, even given a correlation, you have not determined cause-and-effect; when two findings are correlated, they could have some hidden common cause.

"Major Problems"

[sourcehunter]

Dr John Sallis, who treated the boy at Liverpool's Alder Hey Hospital, said: "It was quite clear this boy had major problems."

Major problems include: PLAYING VIDEO GAMES SEVEN HOURS PER DAY!

Re:"Major Problems"

[loraksus]

I fail to see the problem (although I am recently divorced and unemployed)
(I love the smell of satire in the morning)

Re:7 hours / day

[MindStalker]

repeated activity (IE
Yes, repeated use of IE will cause pain.

Re:7 hours / day

[xonker]

Assembly line workers do the same thing for 8 hours a day plus.

Yup, and I've got a wicked case of CTS to show for the three and a half years that I worked in a factory. I did the same job for more than a year because I was faster at my job than any one else on the line and my supervisor didn't want to rotate me. So, I spent 8 hours a day doing the same job -- not just in the same factory, mind you, doing the same repetitive motion -- for more than 12 months. Eventually I couldn't even sleep for more than a few hours without waking up due to the pain in my wrists and hands.

Happily, I got out of there without having to have surgery or anything -- I know a few people who had surgery and never regained full strength in their hands. I did go through about a month of physical therapy and learned a few exercises to help relieve the strain. I can't use normal keyboards or laptop keyboards for any period of time without causing pain, though. I've stocked up on ergonomic keyboards just in case the models that I like go out of production. (The original M$ "Natural" keyboards rock. The new models suck -- one doesn't have normal arrow keys, the other is too clunky with all the extra function keys. The cordless Logitech ergo keyboards rock too...)

Anyway, factories are required by OSHA to allow workers to rotate jobs or try to make sure that their jobs aren't going to cause RSI. I'm not sure it's 100% possible -- the human body was not designed to do repetitive tasks for 8 hours a day for years on end. But they're supposed to make an effort to prevent it.

And kids, if your hands hurt because you've been playing video games too long then it's time to go read a f&*^%ing book. Pain is the first sign of RSI, and if you heed it you won't have serious problems. If you ignore it, you're in for a lot worse than hand cramps.

Serious medical condition

[YouAreFatMan]

This story reminds me of the summer I spent working for a lawn-mowing company and my fingers tingled all the time from the vibration. It can get really bad -- the British Health and Safety Executive has a document which describes hand-arm vibration injury, which normally affects stonemasons and people who operate vibrating machinery all day. The say that if you're getting more vibration than the equivalent of four hours of lawnmower action, you should be concerned about your health.

I think we've passed the point where product liability ends individual responsibility takes over. Perhaps they should have a warning label because little Johnny spends so much time on his PS2 that he doesn't eat properly, and that's bad for his health as well.

Some controllers worse than others

[kisrael]

I noticed that the rattle on the GameCube seemed a little wimpy. (And had read that it was more significant a factor on the XBox, and put to good use in "Halo"). I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was a bit of a deliberate ergonomic decision on Nintendo's part. (Or maybe it just ties in to have a relatively smaller controller anyway.)

Re:Some controllers worse than others

[Tofuhead]

I always suspected that this was one of the reasons Sega's Dreamcast Jump Pack was so much weaker than the third-party vibrators. That, plus the fact that overly-strong vibrations can be too much of a distraction. You have to HOLD these things, after all.

< tofuhead >

Note to fuckhead moderators:

[dimator]

The parent post is in fact funny. To the dumb shit who moderated it as a troll: do you know what the hell a troll is? Jesus.

Re:Note to fuckhead moderators:

[Anonymous Coward]

do you know what the hell a troll is? Jesus.


Are you trying to say that Jesus is a troll?

Re:7 hours / day

[Peyna]

They used to be required by OSHA, but all the RSI rules were repealed. UAW shops still enforce them, but they aren't required to.

British Reporting?

[cheese_wallet]

Has it struck anyone else here, reading slashdot, that the british papers have entirely become the equivelent of the American National Enquirer. I.E. Useless?

Re:British Reporting?

[Gumshoe]

If by uselss you mean, simply and non-sensationally reporting a statement made by a genuine and otherwise respected doctor, and a contrary statement by Sony; then yes I agree, British newspapers are useless. Although, I always thought that's what newspapers were supposed to do. I.E. keep their opinions to themselves - after all that's what we're here for.... In this case, it is the doctor himself who is being senstational. I suspect he's never seen or used a vibrating controller. If he had, he would realise that these things are no more dangerous than a purring cat. "Vibratory White Finger" is usually experienced by roadworkers and miners, not minors.

Re:N64

[NeuroManson]

You mean the one where they say to take a break every hour or so? Yeah, I didn't read it either...

When Do The Lawsuits Come In?

[NeuroManson]

Especially in any arcade that has the 'Addams Family Generator' game, which has some pretty wicked vibrations...

Sony: safety you can count on.

[Inoshiro]

"Sony, which manufactures the top-selling Playstation games, said it had never received any feedback or complaints about hand-arm vibration syndrome after 61 million sales world-wide of Playstations I and II.

It stressed that there was occasional, but no constant vibration during either game."

Thanks, Sony, I'm glad knowing that your two games, the Playstation 1 and Playstation 2, are the safest games I can own. Where is my Dreamcast copy of Playstation 2? I see the kids in the picture enjoying it!

The research in this article (one extreme case among millions leading to warnings) is astounding. Then again, they do have "WARNING: HOT" on coffee nowadays. Have to protect the public from themselves :-/

Re:Sony: safety you can count on.

[rtaylor]

Yeah, well.. Turn off the coffee pot and it still says WARNING: HOT. It should have a warning for COLD as well because nothing is worse than cold coffee.

Re:Sony: safety you can count on.

[JWhitlock]

The research in this article (one extreme case among millions leading to warnings) is astounding. Then again, they do have "WARNING: HOT" on coffee nowadays. Have to protect the public from themselves :-/

McDonald's probably has the best litigation strategy of any company I've ever seen. Even though McDonald's was clearly wrong in the coffee cases in the early 90's, and had to settle out of court for a undisclosed sum, they successfully spun that the litigants were idiots that need "WARNING: HOT" labelled on the side of their cups, destracting everyone from the facts of the case.

If you want to know the real story of the McDonald's coffee case, here's a web site that has the details . I have to admit, it changed my mind about the case.

Re:Sony: safety you can count on.

[Inoshiro]

That is very interesting. A few years back, there was a native lady who tried to sue McD's for burning coffee. The local media never reported anything about the temperature.

The people I know all assumed they settled to keep the people involved in the situations quiet (so as not to scare off other potiential customers). I never considered that they'd make them seen like less trustworthy knowledge providers too (*)

*: people tend to be neutral about information they learn from other people, unless they respect them (more likely to trust information) or don't respect (less likely to trust). Trust metrics are neat things :)

Acid Test

[adamjone]

I think the acid test in this case is to ask the question "If a warning label were placed on the product, would it have prevented the injury?" In this case, I believe it is a resounding NO. The kid had a serious gaming addiction. A warning in the Playstation documentation, assuming he read it, would not have prevented this kid from sitting in front of the tube and playing for hours on end.

The remedy...

[jpellino]

Dope-slap the parents AND the kid.
And get a christless life.
Two years of pain from an ELECTIVE activity?
I suggest a sublethal category for the Darwin awards. Oxymoronic, but necessary.
Only saving grace is that this slob will likely never be given the occasion to reproduce.

Damn those BBC censors

[cswiii]

The 15-year-old boy spent seven hours a day playing computer games and particularly enjoyed those using the vibration mode on the control device.

The BBC editors seemed to have left this tidbit out:

'The boy, known only to the media as 'Cowpoke Neal', is said to be the younger sibling of a well-known online personality. It is unknown whether or not the family member suffers from the same condition.'

One wonders

[Kanasta]

If he has 7hrs a day free to play games, that's like he has enough time to sleep eat and play games. Maybe shower every 2nd day?

I wonder what the parents were doing every day not noticing maybe he should spend some time doing something else.

Re:7 hours / day

[Com2Kid]

"And kids, if your hands hurt because you've been playing video games too long then it's time to go read a f&*^%ing book. Pain is the first sign of RSI, and if you heed it you won't have serious problems. If you ignore it, you're in for a lot worse than hand cramps."

I ended up straining my eyes. . .

8hr reading sessions == one BIIIIIG ass headache!

N64

[Traicovn]

Alright... time for a class action suite against nintendo's game cube then. That thing comes with controllers that have built-in rumble packs...

Seven hours

[t_allardyce]

They said 'seven hours' as though it was an excessive amount of time.. i spent more than that on just one game some days. The first time i turned on the vibrator (PS2) i started feeling funny after a few hours of gaming - my grip felt weak, and i sometimes had pins & needles. Now i'm turning it off for everything. Now atleast i know my theory was right. Maybe i should get out more... But i can't beat police down with a baseball bat and then pump them full of lead in real life.. :(

Vibrations can be REAL bad...

[cr0sh]

How bad? Let me tell a small story...

In October 2000, I helped set up a demo of a pulsejet engine given by Mark Pauline and Co (of SRL) - the demo was to show off the pulsejet, which was of a valveless design, and could thus run for a long period of time, and didn't have parts that would wear out (unlike typical pulsejet engines, which use a spring metal valve system).

Anyhow, this engine was loud - actually, that doesn't do justice to how loud the engine was - it was bone-shaking loud. When it was running, it was like your entire body - bones and tissue, all - was buzzing with its energy - which, it was!!!

Mark only ran the engine for a few minutes each time, when he was tuning it, or demoing it. He told us (the crew who was helping set up for the demo, which was meant to presage the Ultraviolence show in Phoenix, which never happened because the SFFD contacted the PFD, and...) a story about pulsejets, and why you never want to let one run for a long time, and be around it...

He said he worked on one engine a while back, and ran it for a long time, all the time making adjustments, etc - tuning the engine, basically. He said he ran it for 30 minutes to an hour, and then when he shut it down, he felt numb all over - something like having your entire body being "asleep" (imagine the prickly pins all over your body). He layed down to rest, thinking it was all temporary - eventually the prickly sensation went away - but what came afterward was much, MUCH worse - his nerves were hypersensitised.

Simply moving, or small noises, or puffs of air on his skin, would cause intense waves of pain. He said the condition lasted for a couple of days, then went away. Needless to say, he doesn't run his engines for long times any more.

I thought it was an interesting story. Could a vibrating game controller cause the same reaction? I doubt it, but they can't be good for you if left vibrating for long periods (and unless the motor was stuck on, why would that occur?)...

Re:7 hours / day

[streetlawyer]

I did the same job for more than a year because I was faster at my job than any one else on the line and my supervisor didn't want to rotate me. So, I spent 8 hours a day doing the same job -- not just in the same factory, mind you, doing the same repetitive motion -- for more than 12 months. Eventually I couldn't even sleep for more than a few hours without waking up due to the pain in my wrists and hands.

Why didn't you slow down a bit then you stupid cunt?

Only in America..

[Fastolfe]

This is one of my long-standing rants: the need for America to constantly cater to the stupid and incompetant. Our judicial system has a very low definition of "common sense", which is what allows us to sue over hot coffee that we bought, sue because we decide to play vibration-enhanced games for 50% of our waking day and our hands start to go numb, etc. It's totally ridiculous. I think it's retarded that everywhere I look there are 50 stupid stickers and warning labels telling me not to ingest plastic bags, avoid sticking metal things into electrical outlets, not to drink household cleaners, etc.

If you ask me, a gene pool is improved by allowing people to do the things only they are stupid enough to do. We definitely need to jack up the definition of "common sense" in our legal system to something a bit more common sense.