New Sensor Has Real Per-Pixel RGB Sensitivity

jonr writes: "Well, the holy grail of digital photography is finally found. A company named Foveon have developed a sensor that captures RGB colours on each pixel. So what you say? Well, for the past 30 years (or since the CCD was invented) we have been using CCD with with red, green & blue sensors (or cyan/magneta/yellow) and then used software to figure out the real colour. But Foveon is the first company to deliver RGB-in-each-pixel sensor. For those of you who are not into digital imaging, this makes a lot of difference, it's would be just as revelutionary if somebody would make a flatscreen with a real colour pixels, instead of the RGB dots. dpreview.com has the scoop. (No, it won't mean the death of film, but I suspect we'll see dramatic improvement in quality)."

Comments

fr1st p1st

[Anonymous Coward]

Violator first p1st 0wnz j00 4ll

Re:fr1st p1st

[neal n bob]

worthless ac - this fp rightfully belonged to sweetandsour.

Re:fr1st p1st

[Anonymous Coward]

suck 1t, b1tch3z.

Re:fr1st p1st

[neal n bob]

hmmm - lets examine the evidence and determine what type of ac filth we are dealing with:
1. wasted fp
2. using '31337' speak
3. mid-afternoon timeframe

I must conclude that you are in junior high, perhaps high school - you are skipping a class and found yourself in the library - and you have already spanked it in the bathroom to the new life of the apes issue of national geographic.

Please go back to huffing elmer's glue or whatever the hell you normally do.

Re:fr1st p1st

[Anonymous Coward]

*huffs glue*

AHAHAHAHA!

hat?

[SweetAndSourJesus]

please please please

gimme that hat.

hat hat hat hat hat hat

Re:hat?

[SweetAndSourJesus]

Fucking AC. Lick my smelly asshole.

Jesus needs a hat, god damnit.

Re:hat?

[Anonymous Coward]

b3 f4st3r, b1tch.

Re:hat?

[SweetAndSourJesus]

log in, b1tch. The hat will be mine.

In other news, I'm having a delightful lunch today. It's a little eggplant parm number I put together last night. Slice of eggplant (grilled), homemade tomato sauce, fresh parm (the real stuff, not that Kraft junk) and mozerella on a roll. Pop it in the oven until the cheese is nice and melty. Serve with arugala salad, if available.

Think I might flag down the helado cart that cruises my street for dessert. They've got those frozen mango juice type things.

Redundant Redundancy

[DonkeyHote]

FP!

Nz eph-T f yJep ou lop xxipB oo Mboe fst j t-cv utif
bq qbsfo um zx spu f ui jtb s ujdmf F wf sz c p ezxi pib
tbe phd bmm tijnS pwf s psCp zJ d bmmn jofTf yIftb h
sf bu qbmcv u ifdb vt ftcf bhs fb uefb mpg fnc b ssbt
tn fou XifoJ xf ouupu i f djuzi b mmups f of xij teph
mjdf odf -J upm euif dm fsl J xpv me mj l fb mjdfo d fg
ps Tf yI ft bjeJ em jl f po f u pp U ifoJt bje Cvuu ijtj
t be phI ftbje ife jeo udbs fxibu ti fmpp lfem jlf U
i foJtb j eZpv e p ouvoe fst ub oeJwf ibeTf ytjod f J
xb to jo fzf bst pm eIf x jolfe b o e tbjeZ pv nvtui bw
fcf for vjuf bljeX if oJh p unb ssjfe boex fou p onz
ip of znppo -Jup plui feph x juinf Jup meu ifnp ufm
d mfsl uibuJ xb ou f eb sppng psv tb oebtq fd jbms pp
ng p sT fyUif dm f slu pmen fx fxpv meouo ffeb tf qbs
buf sppn btmpo hb t xfq b jeu if cjmmt uifze j eoudb
sfx ib uxf e jeMpp l- z pvepo uvoef st uboeT fy lffq
tnfb x blfb u o jh iuUif dmfs lt bjeGv o oz-Ji bwf ui
ftbn f q sp cmfn Pofe bzJfo ufsf eTf yjob dpou ft uc
vuc fgpsf ui fdpnq fu ju j pocfh bo- u ife p hsbo bxb
zB opui fsdp o uftu boubt lfe nf xizJx btk v t utubo
e johui fsf- mpp ljo h ejtbq qpjou feJ up mei jn Ji b
eqmb oof eupi bw f Tfyj oui fdp ouftu Ifup men fJ ti
pv me ibwft pme n zp xou jdlfu Cvuzp vepo uvoef stu
b oeJ ib eqmbo o feup ib wfTf ypoUW Iftbj eOp x ui bu
db cm f jtb spvoe -juto pcjhe fbm bo zn ps fXif onz t
qpvtf boe Jt f qbsb ufe- xf xfou upd pv s uupgj hiug
p sdvtu pezp gui fephJ tb je Zpvs Ip opvs - Ji b e Tfy
cf gpsf Jxbt nbssj feU ifk ve hfsf qmj feUi fdpvs u
spp njt opub dpo gfttj p o bmT ujd lupui fdbt fq mf b
tfUi foJu pmei j nu ib ubgu f sJxb tnbss jfe- Tf ymf
gun fIftb jeNfu ppM bt uoj hiuT fy sbopg gbhb joJt
qfo uipv stmp pl jo hb s pvoeu pxogp s ijn Bdp qdbn f
pw fsupn fboeb tlf eXibu bsfzp vepjo hjoui jt b m m
fz bu5p dm p d ljo uifnp soj ohJu p m eijn Jxbt mpp l j
ohgp sTfy Nzdbt fdpnf tvqGs je bzN zeph -TfyJ epo
ul op x xi pBoo Mboe fstj t -cv ut ifbq qbs foum zxs p
uf uijtb sujd mfFw fsz cp ezx ip i btbe phdbm mtijn
S pwf spsCp zJdb mm njo fTfy I ft b hsf bu qbm cvu ifd
bvtft cfbhs f bue fbm pg fncbs s bttn f ouXi f oJx fo
uu pu ifdj u zib m m u psfo fxijt eph mjdfo df-J u pme
ui fdm fslJx p vm emjlf bm jdfo dfg psT fyI ft b jeJ e
mjlf pof upp Uif o Jt bjeCv u ui jtjt be phIf tbjei f
ejeo udbs fxib uti fmp pl fem jl fUifo J t bj eZpv ep
o uvoef st uboeJ w fi be Tfy tjod fJ xbto jofz fbs t p
m eIfxj olfe boetb jeZp vn vtu ibwfc f for v jufbl j
eX if oJ hpu nb s sjfe boexf oupo nz ipo fznp po-Ju p
plui f e phxj uinf Jupm e uifnp ufmd mf sl ui bu Jxb o
u febs ppn g psvtb oebtq fdjbm s ppng psT fyUi fd mf
s l upm e nf xfxp v meouo f fe btf q bsb u fs pp nb tmpo h
bt xfqb jeuif c jmmtu ifzej eoud b s fxibu xf eje Mp
pl- zp ve po uvoe fstu boe Tf ylffq tnfbx blfbu ojh
i uUif dmfsl tb jeGvo oz-J ibwf u ift bnf qspc mfnP
ofebz Jfouf sf eT f yjo bdpou ftucv ucfgp sfu i fdp
nqfuj u j poc fhbo- uifep hsbo bxbz Bopui fsd pou f
tu boub tlfen fxizJ xbtk vtutu bo ejo hu if sf-m p p
l johej tbqqp jouf e J upme ijnJ ibeqm bo o feupi bw
fT fyjou ifdp ouftu I f up men fJ t ipvm e i bwft pmen
z pxou jdlfu C vu zpv epou voef st uboe Ji beqmb oof
e u p ibwfT fy poU WI ft bjeO pxui bu dbcm fjtb spvo e
-ju topc j hefb m bozn psfX ifonz tqpv tf boeJ tfqb
s buf e - xfxfo uu pd pv su up g j hi ugps dvtu pe zpgu i
fep hJt bjeZp vsI po p vs-Ji b eT fy c fgpsf Jxb t nbs
s jfeU i fkve hfsf qmjf eUifd pvs usppn jt op ubdpo
gft tjpob mT ujdl up uifd bt f qmfbt fUif oJ upmei j
nuib ubg uf sJx btn b s sjfe- Tf ymfg un fIft bjeN fu
ppM bt uo jhiuT fysb opgg b hb joJ t qfo uipv stmp p l
johb s p voeup x ogpsi jnBdp qd b nf p w fsup n fboeb t
lf eXi b u bsfzp v ep johj ouij tbmmf zb u5pdm pdljo
uifn psojo hJup m eijnJ xbt m ppl johgp sTfyN zdb t
fdp nftv qGsj e bz

Re:Redundant Redundancy

[TrollBridge]

If this was supposed to be a page-lenghtening post, you have failed miserably, sir. Keep trying though!

It's TRUE

[YourMissionForToday]

Look around you, folks. How many of you have sigs that refer to "karma", "ACs," getting "modded up" and the like? Has Slashdot become your hermetically sealed environment? Is it the filter through which you perceive reality? Has Slashdot become an empty game where you regurgitate earlier posts to get 'karma'?

Some of you might be surprised to learn that this "karma" has no value whatsoever!!! When Slashdot goes under (and don't worry, it will) you won't be able to exchange that "karma" for Denny's coupons, anime DVDs, or anything worth a shit!!!

And don't think there's any spiritual value either! Slashdot "karma" won't help you break the cycle of reincarnation, it won't get you "high", and it won't even win you friends at Magic: The Gathering tournaments!

Fellow Slashdotter, you have been deceived!!! You will not achieve immortality by posting "Imagine a Beowulf cluster of this!" or "Linux is really good for the desktop!" The only way you'll ever be remembered when this decrepit weblog tumbles into nothingness is to post something really FUCKED UP!!! I can't stress this enough!!!

Don't waste your time chasing the "karma" cap! Don't whine about your stories not being published when you know that the news on this site is randomly chosen by monkeys!!! The only way you'll be remembered long after CmdrTaco returns to his old position as shift leader at Pizza Hut is by posting ABSOLUTE FREAKING MADNESS!!! Do it now!!! Do it often!!! And karma be damned!!!

Re:It's TRUE

[Anonymous Coward]

all yuor base are belong to us !!!!

ha ha ha !!!!

Re:It's TRUE

[IAgreeWithThisPost]

Has anyone beat -14 karma? Im fairly proud of that one, caused a by a vindictive mod rampage.

Let's take a look at the FAQ shall we.

"Is there a minimum amount of karma you can have?
It's very difficult to go below -10 or so. Once you get really low, you start posting at -1, and the moderators are less likely to see your posts, so it's hard to lose any more karma.
Answered by: CmdrTaco
Last Modified: 10/12/00"

Actually it's not difficult at all to go below -10. Say you post 24 posts at 0 score. A bastard mod goes to your post list and marks all 24 down to -1. You are now below -10 and banned for 72 hours! congrats!

Re:It's TRUE

[Mode0x13]

Sir... I salute you.

Eventually, only six things will be remembered from the Age of Slashblott:

1) Ascii goatse pictures.

2) Cmdertaco and Klerck

3) ____ is dying.

4) Linux sucks.
5) Lyrics guy and other crapflooders
6) A collection of turds in the shape of RMS
(I've submitted this story many times; it hasn't made it yet.)

Finally... I would like to put forth an idea. I think the ultimate troll would be a linked article that was taken down and replaced with a goatse mirror. You'd have to do some work to make this happen, but I think it's possible. Any trolls out there have "cool" websites (in the slashdot sense)? Imagine... all the assholes who actually read stories before posting would have to wash their eyes out with soap, so to speak.

-Mode 13 hex

The sole voice of reason in an insane world.

Re:It's TRUE

[YourMissionForToday]

Haha! The Goatse hoax is a great idea. My favorite crapfloods are ASCII goatse and BankofAmerica_ATM. Trollaxor, Tasty Beef Jerky, and a ton of other trolls are also very funny. -1 is always funnier than any "beowulf cluster" shit that gets modded up to +5.

Please

[returnofthe_spork]

Mod this post up. I need some points. Wednesday is my birthday. Thank you.

Hi, I am a smelly indian...

[Anonymous Coward]

May I have an H1-B so I can work in a sweatshop?

Sweet

[NeMon'ess]

So this could mean a three-fold increase in megapixels just because each pixel no longer requires 3 sensors to measure the color.

Re:Sweet

[maniac11]

Sorta... but now there are 3 full arrays to capture each color. Meaning it doesn't have to just downsample the color separation... It gives accurate color representation "in software".

A 400% increase in the amount of red and blue light accounted for and a 200% increase in the amount of green. (See figure 1.) A mean increase of 300%, but the overall image quality will be exponentially better because the true color balance will be maintained.

This is freakin' awesome, btw.

Re:Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Unfortunately the new sensors are three times bigger than the old ones. ;)

Re:Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the meaning of the term "megapixel" has been corrupted by digital photography.

What they call 2.1 megapixels is actually 1x1600x1200 bytes of data coming out of the CCD while you probably expect 3x1600x1200 bytes (RGB values for every pixel). Never mind that 1600x1200 = 1.92M not 2.1M ("cheat by 10%" marketing rule).

So this new sensor would only bring back the true meaning of what a "pixel" is. I don't think they will multiply their numbers by 3, just use good marketing.

Re:Sweet

[tweakt]

Exactly.

The current highest-end I think is 5 Megapixels. There are actually 15 Million individual sensors on that camera. Now each one can record the exact color individually, so thoretically, we should see cameras with this Foveon sensor, at least 10+ Megapixel for higher end.

When the parts get cheaper, this means price drops across the board for current resolutions, because to get 3MP of image data, you no longer need 9 million sensors, just 3 =).

I'm glad I haven't bothered to upgrade from my Olympus D400Z yet. 1280x960 now, maybe 3000x2000 tomorrow !!!

Re:Sweet

[Alan Partridge]

joking aside, the difficulty of making LARGER sensors has been something of a brake on the professional adoption of digital photography. Mind you, I didn't see anything in Fovea's release that indicated size as a problem. Sounds really fascinating tech - can't wait to see the real world performance.

Re:Sweet

[stripes]

The current highest-end I think is 5 Megapixels. There are actually 15 Million individual sensors on that camera. Now each one can record the exact color individually, so thoretically, we should see cameras with this Foveon sensor, at least 10+ Megapixel for higher end

All the 5Mpixel stuff on the market, like the CoolPix 5000 mean 5 million sensors, not 5 million of each sensor. Really. Go check some of the spec pages on dpreview if you don't believe me.

It makes a lot less difference then you would think, but it does make some difference.

Re:Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

Or each pixels takes up 3x the space ?

Re:Sweet

[jo42]

Excellent, better flesh tones on pr0n fotos!

Re:Sweet

[Performer Guy]

This is true, but there will be dyes & filters involved which will limit the light and I assume there will be some undesirable crosstalk between color channels since it's unlikely the colors will be perfectly filtered. This is still an awesome development. It should greatly reduce the blue and red channel noise which seems to plague color CCDs.

It's Trew?

[DonkeyHote]

Don't believe these horrid lies, Slashdot is your friend!

Kvt ux ifo zp vuijo l-o p-LO P X-uib uu ijo ht db ouh
fuboz x p s tfH pp eZp vsiv c czbo e z pv b hsff -opnp s
f lje tC beZp vd bo ugj oezpv sc js uidp ou s p mq jmmt
Xp stfZp vseb vhi ufs cpss pxfeu if nHpp eZpvs t po
tuv ej ft bmpu jo ij t spp nCb eZp vgjoe t f wfs bm qps
onp wj ftije efoui fs fXp stf Zp vsfjo uif nHpp eZp
vs ivtcb o e vo ef stub o etg btij poCbe If tbdsp tte
sf ttfsX ps tfIf mppl tcfuu fsui bo zpv H ppe Z pvs t
pot gjobm mznbu vsj oh C beIf tjowp mwf ex juiui fx
pnb oof yue p psX p stfT pbsfz pvHpp e Zpv stpo tejt
dp w fsfex ibuif x bout upepj omjgf Cbe Iftjo gs po
up gui fUW bmmu ifuj nfXp s tf I fep f touu v soj upo g
jst uHp p eZ pvh jwfui fcjse tboe cf ftubm lupzp vs
ebv hiufs CbeTi flffq tjouf ss vqu jo hXpst f Xju i
dps sfd uj po tHpp eZ pvsxj g ftop uub m ljohu pz p v C
beT ifxbo utb ejwp sd fXps tf Tiftb mbx zfsH ppeU i
fqp tun bo tfb sm zC beIft x fbsj ohg bujhv ftboe d b
sszj o hb oBL 58 X pstfZ p vhbwf i j nop ui johgp s Dis
j tunbt

Some Breakthrough...

[Anonymous Coward]

So they moved the software which figures out the "real" colors into the hardware. Same old sensors, brand new claims. Whoopee. I doubt the significance of this as anything other than a marketing ploy. Enjoy!

(That's not to say the images will not be excellent, but is this really a breakthrough?)

Re:Some Breakthrough...

[Joe Decker]

You're incorrect. Check the Foveon web site. In conventinal sensors, as you say, the software has to guesstimate colors at boundaries because you can't sample the 'red' at the same point in the image that you sample the 'green'. With the X3 sensor, it appears that you get a simultanious reading of the color channels over the same parts of the image area. This means you avoid a lot of resolution-losing filtering in the color channel to avoid chroma aliasing, and at the same time perhaps improving light sensitivity.

Ah the circle of technology...

[kiddailey]

You spend $3,000 on that Sony MiniDV camera with 3CCDs and it's quickly outdated.

No matter how many time I tell myself I'm over the fact that this will alway happen (stuff being outdated right after you buy it), the first thing that pops into my mind is "damn, if only I could have waited a little longer..."

Actually, this is very cool. Combine it with the depth capturing story we heard about earlier and hopefully dept projection and the future looks really really awesome!

Re:Ah the circle of technology...

[kiddailey]

Argh. I meant depth projection.

Dept projection already exists in the form of "You're pre-approved!" spam e-mail.

:)

Re:Ah the circle of technology...

[Anonymous Coward]

from the you're-pre-approved dept.

department projection?

Re:Ah the circle of technology...

[volsung]

I wouldn't be too depressed. You're comparing real, in-your-hands technology with press-release, prototype technology that you won't even be able to purchase for a while. You've got at least another year before your camera is put to shame. :)

Re:Ah the circle of technology...

[Cerebus]

My full-manual Pentax K-1000, handheld self-powered light meter, and pocket-sized Kodak technical reference have *yet* to be outdated, and they're almost 20 years old.

And I can work it all without batteries, which is really neat on long backpacking trips, or when I store it away for months.

Re:Ah the circle of technology...

[ehiris]

This happens because of closed architecture of devices such as cameras. That makes them impossible to be upgraded. So in case you will want the new technology you can't make use of any parts of your Sony DV camera that you paid for. :(

I would like to see high resolution USB or Firewire pc cameras that you can hook up to your laptop and capture high quality images and not have to buy whole new camera and it's expensive chipset every time there's a new technology.

Re:Ah the circle of technology...

[kiddailey]

I agree, but I also have to admit that it will take a long time to outgrow my PowerBook/Sony VX-2000 combination ;)

Re:Ah the circle of technology...

[ehiris]

I admit the VX-2000 is very nice but it still uses CCD and you won't be able to upgrade it to per pixel RGB sensitivity :(

Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Pr0n in all its color-accurate glory!

Pixel count in camera specs...

[killthiskid]

So when a digital camera is said to have 3 mega-pixels, does that mean that it only has 1 million pixels for each color??? Thus, the actual resolution isn't 3 mega but 1 mega???

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[kindbud]

That is exactly right.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite. While there are only three million sensor sites, and each one detects only one colour, you really end up with half your sensors green, and a quarter each blue and red.

However, since your eye is more sensitive brightness than colour, you actually get something like 50-70% of the actual information in the full colour picture, unless you get pathological aliasing or something.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that would actually be 3 mega-sensors, not megapixels. The pixels themselves are created by interpolating the data from the three separate sensors.

I have a 3 Megapixel camera capable of taking images in something on the order of 2180x1536. That multiplies out to 3,348,480 pixels. That sure sounds like 3 megapixels to me.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[damiangerous]

That is exactly right.

No, it's almost entirely wrong. The most common configuration for a digital camera uses what's known as a Bayer filter pattern for discerning color. Each pixel will only sense red, green, or blue (there are as many green as there are red and blue combined), and it will use neighboring pixels to extrapolate the true color. While it's true that some of the pixels are lost from the stated resolution (stated pixels actually refers to photosites), it's only about 200,000 in a 2mp CCD.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[Lionel Hutts]

Uh, no, exactly wrong. A camera with 1 million color pixels, i.e., 1 million each of red, green, and blue, is referred to as "1 megapixel." A 3 megapixel camera has at least 9 million sensors, if you count the colors separately.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[cnaumann]

More Typically, a 3MP camera would have 1.5M green pixels, 0.75M red and 0.75M blue pixels. This is called an GRGB Bayer pattern. It is not as bad as it sounds. Every Pixel contributes to resolution (luminance) but they must be processed in groups to produce color (chrominance) information. You eye is much more sensitive to luminance resolution anyway. Digital cameras require a pretty hefty DSP to do this processing.

Check out:
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/key=colour+filter+ ar ray

The pixel count is going to hurt them, Sigma will try to sell a 3.43MP Digital SLR for $3000 with an undersized (1.7X) sensor using this technology. I do not think this will compete well against a 6MP Canon D30 at a similar price.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[Anonymous Coward]

That sure sounds like 3 megapixels to me.

Yeah but they're not "true" pixels. If you don't mind interpolation, scale your image 2x in photoshop and you get an amazing 12 megapixel image! Moron.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[Anonymous Coward]

What killthiskid wanted to know is if a 3 mega-pixel camera has

(a) about 3 million red sensors + 3 million green sensors + 3 million blue sensors
or
(b) about 1 million red sensors + 1 million green sensors + 1 million blue sensors

The truth is 0.75 million red sensors + 1.5 million green sensors + 0.75 million blue sensors, not too far from (b). So killthiskid is essentially right. The current marketing numbers are deceiving, which was the spirit of his question.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[Anonymous Coward]

I must say that I'm very confused by your sig!! Please explain it to me if it makes sense or if it doesn't....English is not my first tongue, but I am curious if it is funny.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[xercist]

I was under the impression that the human eye is more sensitive to slight changes in the blue spectrum of color. If so, why are there more green sensors used to gather color information?

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[killthiskid]

Hi, AC, I will answer.

My sig: It explodes. Sort of like Michael Jackson standing in a room full of asian women.

While reading slashdot one day, probably about 2 months ago, I ran across this bit of text in a post here at slashdot. In the context of the post, it was VERY funny. I think it is still funny all by itself, thus I decided to adopt it as my sig.

There, now you know. Enjoy.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[dakoda]

iirc, the eye notices more in green, then blue, and then red. thats why 16bpp color mode is almost always rrrrrggggggbbbbb (565). more information in green, because we notice it more.

the reason we see more green is *i think* because it is in the middle of the spectrum. blue is near the uv end, but farther from the end than red is from infrared. similar to how our ears hear things with higher definition in 1-2khz fairly well, but less at =20khz. or something like that. im not a doctor though.

Re:Pixel count in camera specs...

[p0d]

The D30 has a similar MP to the Sigma SD9. No Canon digital body has a 6MP sensor...well except for the DCS-540, but that is a body-by-Canon, digital guts by Kodak joint venture...

Anyone else wonder why...

[Anonymous Coward]

there are soo many smelly indians working in sweatshops?

Sounds Good to Me

[ScumBiker]

I can't wait until I can get this in something other than a $3,000 camera. The imagery I saw, even in jpeg format, was outstanding. Anyone wanna form a pool on when you can get a camera using this tech for $400? I say October, this year.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[grendelkhan]

I'll go with October of next year. But yeah, the quality of these images are just downright amazing for digital, or hell, even scanned analog images. I, for one, am suitably impressed.

Now imagine a beo^H^H^H this type of sensor attached to a video camera and a quick way to suck it all into an AVID, and I think the death of film may really just be around the corner.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Bonker]

I can't wait until I can get this in something other than a $3,000 camera. The imagery I saw, even in jpeg format, was outstanding. Anyone wanna form a pool on when you can get a camera using this tech for $400? I say October, this year.

While cameras are the 'killer app' for this tech, I think we'll probably see it show up in flatbed document scanners first.

Still, that's not an unwelcome tradeoff. I can't wait to scan an image and *not* have to correct for saturation or gamma levels.

In the opinion of many people, an expertly shot film image is still superior to an expert digital camera image. This will be the test of that supposition.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[stripes]

While cameras are the 'killer app' for this tech, I think we'll probably see it show up in flatbed document scanners first.

Why? A flatbed can "just" make multiple passes with different color filters (that is how most film scanners work, an R pass, G pass, B pass, and an IP pass to find the dust and scratches). This is much more useful for something capturing the moving world...

In the opinion of many people, an expertly shot film image is still superior to an expert digital camera image. This will be the test of that supposition.

Yes, but that frequently has more to do with depth of field and quality of the digital camera. If you look in Sports Illustrated or Time magazine for example you will be very hard pressed to identify the Nikon D1/D1H/D1X shots, or the Canon D30/1D shots because they are of very high quality and offer the same creatave control over depth of field. Except for the D30 they also cost 2 to 3 times as much as a high end film body (and a high end film body at $2000 costs far more then an intro level SLR which can make the same images, just slower).

There are still plenty of areas film wins though, very slow and very fast films get results you normally can't get with digitals, and even at more normal speeds if you enlarge past 8x10 or at least past 16x10 (the D1X has done "double truck" images in SI for example) film will win again. Of corse at those sizes you almost always need a tripod, and seldom use 35mm film...

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Mr_Matt]

...and I think the death of film may really just be around the corner.

Not so fast, though...IIRC, the upper limit right now is something like 6 megapixels, for a ludicrously expensive unit. 6 megapixels scales to roughly the granularity of 200 ASA film - fine for everyday photography, not so fine when you want to blow up images to ludicrous sizes. People who like to make poster-size prints will continue using ASA 40 and 50 film with cameras that cost a fraction of what one of these digital-wonders cost, with film that gives them not only better resolution, but superior color balance as well.

Seems like every time there's an advance in digital imaging, somebody has to whang the "death of film" gong - the fact of the matter is, even _after_ digital cameras have surpassed analog ones, there will be people who will _still_ prefer film, if for no other reason than they like the images better. You can't measure artistic value with "real color, nn megapixel" stats - and as such, film will really never die.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Scanners haven't had to do multiple passes for a few years now. In fact, I challange you to find a consumer or pro level new scanner that is not single-pass.

Scanner makers would be interested in this tech, should it get cheap enough, is to inject some new life into the market, by means of marketing and price increases.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[stripes]

Scanners haven't had to do multiple passes for a few years now. In fact, I challange you to find a consumer or pro level new scanner that is not single-pass

I didn't say they did, I said they could (or at least that was what I intended to say). However if you want an example of a scanner that does multiple passes look at the Nikon CoolScan 4000, or the Canon CannoScan 4000...

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Alan Partridge]

i wish people would stop trying to come up with some "resolution" and "granularity" comparisons between film and digital cameras. The system MTF of digital cameras is dramatically simpler than that of film based cameras, making your resolution comparison redundant (and no-one assesses image quality by extinction resolution anyway). And that's before you even start to consider all of the problems inherent in integral tripack colour films. If you want to find a reason to use film, you need look no further than exposure latitude.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[TeknoHog]

Seems like every time there's an advance in digital imaging, somebody has to whang the "death of film" gong - the fact of the matter is, even _after_ digital cameras have surpassed analog ones, there will be people who will _still_ prefer film, if for no other reason than they like the images better. You can't measure artistic value with "real color, nn megapixel" stats - and as such, film will really never die.

You don't measure artistic value with ASA numbers and the size of prints either. In many cases, the technical shortcomings are seen as an aid to artistic interpretation (think of Lomo for example). So even while today's digital cameras are worse in image quality, I cannot see why they should be less artistic.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

"While cameras are the 'killer app' for this tech, I think we'll probably see it show up in flatbed document scanners first."

BZZT. If you had followed the link, you would have noticed the new Sigma camera with the cluster of other articals about the new sensor.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Mr_Matt]

i wish people would stop trying to come up with some "resolution" and "granularity" comparisons between film and digital cameras.

Why? I've seen side-by-side comparisons of images captured by film and by digital cameras, and I can tell the difference between the digital image and the film image based on the granularity of the image.

--Begin pedantic optics argument--

I will cede that newer technology allows for digital images to approach, and even exceed film resolution. I believe I stated as much in my original post. A true 6 megapixel device, with good optics (say, the Canon EOS D30 or similar, using professional lenses) would have all the optical properties of a film-based camera, with superior MTF response of the CMOS over the film based camera. Remember, though, that the the MTF of the system depends on more than just the film - I'll bet my pro Pentax lenses have better MTFs than the el-cheapo f4.5 lenses found in Joe Consumer digicameras, and cost less, to boot. As such, my dinosaur film camera can give overall MTF numbers comparable to bleeding-edge digital cameras, at a fraction of the cost. Why pay more for the same functionality?

--end pedantic optics argument--

And that's before you even start to consider all of the problems inherent in integral tripack colour films.

IMNSHO, the problems with color-balance in analog film are relatively balanced with the contrast problems in CCD imaging. So that's a wash.

If you want to find a reason to use film, you need look no further than exposure latitude.

Amen, brother! :) I didn't mention that, because I tend to use slide film, but for blowing an exposure by a few stops and still getting a workable image, nothing beats regular ol' ASA 400 negative film. But do consider that some of us compare image quality based on "appearance to the eye" and not on optical engineering specifications. With that in mind, I find the overall granularity of consumer-quality digital images to be displeasing enough not to use 'em, and "pro" digital solutions are way beyond my humble means. :) Hope that helps!

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Alan Partridge]

"As such, my dinosaur film camera can give overall MTF numbers comparable to bleeding-edge digital cameras, at a fraction of the cost." You should know that's just NOT true. If your Pentax lens has 90% modulation transfer at 30cycles/mm, your film 90%, and your film scanner 90%, by the time you get your slide or neg to the SCREEN, you're already down to 73% by the time you're film is ready for production, a digital system can typically give you 10-15% more. I was a real sceptic for a long time (and I definitely feel film is - on balance - just much more beautiful), but the extra penetration that digital cameras give you at USEFUL spatial frequencies is really unarguable. Arguments about high frequency performance is usually completely spurious as it's so difficult to capture high frequency info with a handheld, mechanical focal-plane shutter camera. Your lens might be able to resolve 150cycles/mm, but you'd be doing REALLY well to manage HALF that in a creative photographic context. Digital technology is always pragmatic above all.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Mr_Matt]

If your Pentax lens has 90% modulation transfer at 30cycles/mm, your film 90%, and your film scanner 90%, by the time you get your slide or neg to the SCREEN, you're already down to 73% by the time you're film is ready for production, a digital system can typically give you 10-15% more.

See? That's exactly my point - some quick math:

• Improvement on image quality - 10-15%
  
• Relative cost to acheive above: ~600%
  

I can't justify a $3000 EOS system, plus new Canon lenses, for a 15% difference in quality, especially when that difference might not exist (I'm pretty sure my 50/1.8 gets better than 30 li/mm :) Furthermore, I would defy a non-loupe equipped viewer to detect that 15% difference, and on a student budget, it's a moot point anyways. :) And I doubt that a lower-cost solution would give me that 15%. I'd back it up with numbers, but I couldn't find any comparisons of consumer-grade digital cameras to competent SLR systems. Perhaps you can provide some info regarding affordable digital quality - until then, I have to rely on what I see with my own eyes, and that's generally poorer quality images from digital systems compared to a good SLR system.

Re:Sounds Good to Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Quit yer bitching. In a few years, film will be completely obsolete anyway. Buy whatever you like, but stop complaining about it.

Screw resolution

[Reality Master 101]

More resolution, while nice, is not what digital photography primarily lacks. Light and shadow sensitivity is what really sucks with digital cameras. Film has a logarithmic sensitivity to light, while a digital sensor has a linear sensitivity.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any technologies in development to give better light/shadow sensitivity.

Re:Screw resolution

[CrazyBrett]

IANAP[hotographer], but this sounds like something that could be solved in software. If you know beforehand that your sensor has a linear sensitivity to light, but you're shooting for a logarithmic scale, then just apply a transformation to your data after you receive it from the sensor hardware. Is that a solution, or is the problem more complicated than that?

Re:Screw resolution

[friscolr]

from the article:

Image sensors with Foveon X3 technology gather more light. In a mosaic sensor, each pixel collects only one color out of three, or roughly one-third of the light. The remaining two-thirds of incident light is absorbed by color filters and not used - which is a significant reduction in the efficiency of the pixels. Foveon X3 pixels maximize the use of light since all three colors are collected at each pixel.

Doesn't mention if this also means the range it captures is any greater (whats the technical term for that again?), but i'd like to have a camera that acts like ISO 3200.

Also, this technology has less artifacts because it does not need to do any interpolation. I think that the higher response rate will be a great benefit too; i use a nikon 990 and the wait after taking a shot is crazy. and if this technology helps prolong battery life (less computing, but the main drain is lcd anyways) i'm happier. or i will be once it's in a camera that costs less than $3000.

Personally, i'd love to have a lot more resolution so's i can crop like crazy when necessary. That and i like my Good photos printed out 20x30.

Re:Screw resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

So Gates is giving some money to charity. One would hope so. But - think about how he got the money... By "cutting off the air supply" of other companies (illegally). If he hadn't then other people would be rich and they'd be giving money to charity.

Re:Screw resolution

[Reality Master 101]

Sure you could transform the scale, but the problem is that you typically only have 8 bits of intensity information (or maybe 10 in some cases, I believe). That not a very wide range. I don't remember exactly what the dynamic range of film is, but it's way higher than this (maybe someone knowledgeable could give their 2c about this).

Re:Screw resolution

[friscolr]

If you know beforehand that your sensor has a linear sensitivity to light, but you're shooting for a logarithmic scale, then just apply a transformation to

i don't think that's the problem Reality Master 101 was referring to. i forget my terms and exact figures, but the general idea is like this:

let's say pure black is light level 0 and pure white is level 10. now if traditional film can capture the range from 2-8 then digital film captures 3-7, so digital provides less shadow detail and less highlight detail than traditional film.

Re:Screw resolution

[platos_beard]

The aim here is to extend sensitivity. Ya can't do that in software. You can decrease the range in software, but if the hardware doesn't capture it, no amount of processing will make it magically appear.

Re:Screw resolution

[Dr. Awktagon]

Well the problem is mostly that there aren't enough bits coming out of the camera, so adjacent intensities get combined into one and you lose the shadow detail.

Plus a lot of cameras have a lot of noise in the sensor, which further screws up shadow detail.

Re:Screw resolution

[bitfarmer]

IANAPE[ither], but I think your solution would be complicated by the fact that the dynamic range of a logarithmically sensitive medium is something on the order of a billion to one (or more).

So you would have to have a sensor with 30 or more bits resolution per channel (to match that dynamic range with a linearly sensitive sensor), from which you could then do the math to downconvert to make a logarithmic scale.

Lots of memory would be needed for that plus you'd have to have a very low S/N ratio, etc...

Re:Screw resolution

[esonik]

Yes. At the University of Heidelberg, Germany, Physicists have developed a log-response CCD chip (covering 6 decades of intensity). They want to use it as the frontend sensor for their "tactile vision substitution system" (a machine enabling blind people to "see" with their fingers). The Log response is achieved by operating the sensor transistors in their non-linear range (very crude description, it's been a long time ago since I attended a talk about that project). Links to publications can be found following the above link.

Re:Screw resolution

[Romeozulu]

A bigger problem then number of pixels is quality of glass. Lens of lowend digital cameras stink. Even on higher end digital SLR, the quality of your lens has a huge effect on the quality of the image. But this is nothing new to photography. My point is, more pixels won't help if you're still using cheap PS lens.

RZ

Re:Screw resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

i'd like to have a camera that acts like ISO 3200

so you can take pictures of your sister in the dark you pervert? i've seen your website with the infrared cameras, you are a sicko and need help.

Re:Screw resolution

[cperciva]

let's say pure black is light level 0 and pure white is level 10

What do you classify as "pure white"? Typical indoor lighting? Typical outdoor lighting on a sunny day? Typical lighting when there's a thermonuclear explosion happening a kilometer away?

Pure black is well defined -- zero photons -- but pure white is, well, completely bogus.

Re:Screw resolution

[Keighvin]

The "pure white" is actually a photographic standard for white balance measured in Kelvin (about 9300K IIRC).

Re:Screw resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

I had this idea that for still shots at least (and a lot of my shots are) you could get a digital camera to take two shots in quickly with different shutter speeds. You then take the two images, one slightly over exposed and one slightly under exposed, and intelligently merge the two to get a much better light response. I guess you could even do more than two shots to get really amazing light response... just an idea.

Re:Screw resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, why not just do one long exposure then? You'll have a longer sample, and that's all you can do to improve a linear ADC.

Re:Screw resolution

[stripes]

More resolution, while nice, is not what digital photography primarily lacks. Light and shadow sensitivity is what really sucks with digital cameras. Film has a logarithmic sensitivity to light, while a digital sensor has a linear sensitivity

That depends a lot on the camera and the output mode you use. For example look at the Nikon D1H in NEF mode, or the Canon D30 or D1 in RAW (or is that CRW?) mode.

Re:Screw resolution

[Cerebus]

At what intensity. That's the point. Color temperature doesn't address that.

Re:Screw resolution

[haruharaharu]

pure white is, well, completely bogus

No, pure white is defined as maximum response for your sensor. This is, of course dependent on what you're looking with, but there isn't really any other way. If you want to compare two cameras, you should probably choose a candlepower near the limit of what a human can handle.

Re:Screw resolution

[stripes]

Doesn't mention if this also means the range it captures is any greater (whats the technical term for that again?), but i'd like to have a camera that acts like ISO 3200

It doesn't look like it since Sigma's X3 using camera (is it the SA-9 or SD-9?) only offers ISO 100, 200, 400 and can "push" to 800 and 1600. That more or less matches what the two year old EOS-D30 can do, so I imagine that has more to do with sensor well size (the D30's sensors are just a little bigger I think).

Also, this technology has less artifacts because it does not need to do any interpolation. I think that the higher response rate will be a great benefit too; i use a nikon 990 and the wait after taking a shot is crazy.

That probbably has more to do with JPEGing it, or writing it to the CF card (esp those huge TIFF images).

Personally, i'd love to have a lot more resolution so's i can crop like crazy when necessary. That and i like my Good photos printed out 20x30

Maybe you should give film a try then :-) Try Kodak techpan, or Ilford Pan F, or if you want color Fuji Velvia. Bring a tripod though.

Re:Screw resolution

[McSpew]

Olympus puts f1.4 lenses on many of its digital cameras these days. Admittedly, these are "prosumer" cameras and not low-end consumer cameras, but you can buy an Olympus C2040 for about $450 these days. Sony and a few other manufacturers use Carl Zeiss lenses, which while not as fast optically as the Olympus lenses, seem to frequently have more accurate imaging.

Re:Screw resolution

[esonik]

That way you would saturate the pixels in the bright portions of your image and lose detail there (big white spot). The point of log-response is exactly to avoid that: hight S/N ratio for dark regions and no saturation in bright regions of the picture.

Re:Screw resolution

[CrazyBrett]

Ah, I understand the issue now. So here's my next idea: Place two (or more) sensors on each pixel. Have one sensor respond to the "typical" light ranges with a certain precision. Have the other one respond only to low light variations (it would wash out completely for higher light values, but its output could be disregarded at higher light levels). Assuming it had the same level of granularity as the other sensor, but it was operating over a smaller range, you'd effectively get finer sensitivity in low light conditions.

An example might express this better. Suppose your current technology allowed you to make a sensor that could distinguish among 10 different light levels. Suppose the normal light levels in the world have values 0 -> 100 (imaginary units). With one sensor for each pixel, tuned to respond to the normal light levels, you'd get outputs like 10, 20, 50, 90, etc. However, if you added a second sensor, and made it respond only to light levels less than 10, it could detect values like 1, 2, 5, 9, etc. With BOTH sensors and a few software tricks, you could effectively sense 10x as well in the lowest 10% of light levels, and just as well as before in the rest of the light levels.

If it's possible to add several such sensors, you could even approach some scale that approximated logarithmic sensitivity. Plus, with some clever data compression, it wouldn't even require that many more bits.

Re:Screw resolution

[daviddennis]

My Canon EOS D30 Digital SLR has a CMOS sensor said to have lower battery use, but I think the main secret is that you use the optical viewfinder to compose shots instead of the power-sapping LCD. As a result, my camera never, ever runs out of juice.

The D30 buffers images, so I never have to wait for them to be saved to the CF card. When I had the Nikon 990, I had the same problem you do now, and it was horribly aggrivating.

The D30 cost me $3,385, including lens and CF card, so if $3,000 is really your top, it's not that far away. If you got a cheap prime lens instead of the fancy zoom I got, you could probably just squeeze under the $3,000 limit.

You might enjoy reading my review of the D30:
http://www.epinions.com/content_55600909956

D

Re:Screw resolution

[igrek]

Yep, it's a good idea and it was around for some time.

See for example the "Creating Digital Dynamic Range Wider than Film's" chapter from the excellent "Mastering Nikon Compact Digital Cameras" book.

Re:Screw resolution

[TheMidget]

Wouldn't max "white" intensity depend on shutter speed and exposition anyways? That's why you have those, after all...

Re:Screw resolution

[llamalicious]

Had you read the info on the site, you would know they aren't taking specifically about increasing the resolution.
They are increasing the amount of light captured per element.
Succinct overview: (Let's say we have a camera with 16 pixel (4x4 matrix)

In a typical mosaic CCD pixels would be the following:

gbgr
rgbg
grgb
bgrg

That's 8 green pixels, 4 red and 4 blue.
Thus 50% green, 25% red and 25% blue.

Now, after the image is captured, the camera has to do some serious image manipulation to translate the average color per pixel into an RGB value. Depending on the "correctness" of the algorithm used, you'll get all sorts of fun... low light noise, color shifts, purple fringing, moire patterns.. etc. and all that processing chews cpu time and battery life, and slows down the speed from picture to picture.
(Yes, some cameras have higher speed processors... just means yet more battery drain)

In their new method of capturing the layout is as follows:

aaaa
aaaa
aaaa
aaaa

In this case, all 16 pixels capture red green and blue. This means NO processing to be done to calculate color per pixel.
It also means a 2x increase in the amount of green light captured. And a 4x increase in the amount of both red and blue light captured.

More light being captured = more light and shadow detail.
Not having to process (interpolate) pixel colors = no more fringing, moire or other funkiness.

Now, that doesn't change the fact that digital sensors rely on converting a given set of photons into an electrical charge, and that's tough work... but having more light detected at each photo element is going to give you a LOT more light and shadow definition.

But, I digrees. I don't know of anyone pioneering new ways of doing ADC for photo elements.

Re:Screw resolution

[iangoldby]

I was trying out my new digital camera last Saturday for the first time, taking photos from the top of the London Eye of the city at dusk. Early on, there was too much contrast between the bright sky and the dark Palace of Westminster. I took two photos, one with auto exposure (sky ok, building too dark) and one 'overexposed' by about 2 stops. When I got home, I was able to combine the two in the GIMP.

I ended up with a much greater total tonal range than either of the individual images.

This experiment was done hand-held. I imagine that with a tripod and by doing the maths properly when combining the images, one could achive the same or even greater dynamic range than conventional film.

Incidently, displaying images on a CRT generally exaggerates the contrast. Compressing the raw values from the camera ought to counteract this effect, so would be a Good Thing just on its own. Of course, you have to take into account gamma curves too. As I said, you'd need to do the maths to do it properly.

Re:Screw resolution

[Hard_Code]

"Film has a logarithmic sensitivity to light, while a digital sensor has a linear sensitivity."

So then, isn't the question of what type of sensitivity *human eyes* have? Do we have logarithmic or linear sensitivity?

Re:Screw resolution

[ZoneGray]

Actually, that's exactly how it's done... software, either in the camera or the PC, converts the raw sensor data, and corrects many factors, including brightness and color. In the case of the Canon D30, their software includes the ability to do a "linear" conversion of the raw sensor data to a TIFF, which results in an almost-black image when viewed on the screen. But it sometimes retains some highlight detail that gets lost in the normal conversion, so it can be used for some Photoshop tricks.

The limitations of digital that I've noticed mostly have to do with Dynamic Range, the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of an image that can be captured without losing detail. With film, it seems you can still shoot scenes that have more highlight-shadow range than you can with digital.

That said, I'm never going back to film... too much hassle, too much expense, and the instant gratification of seeing a digital photo you just snapped is great.

Re:Screw resolution

[Nurf]

"So then, isn't the question of what type of sensitivity *human eyes* have? Do we have logarithmic or linear sensitivity?"

Logarithmic, by far. The eye has an astounding dynamic range. Walking from a normally lit room out into the sunlight can mean a change in ambient brightness of around a factor of 400.

Because of this, an 8-bit linear representation of a picture tends to have too much information (ie more than you can see) in the brighter values, and not nearly enough near the bottom end of the range.

This is why 24-bit linear colour isnt really enough. A smoothly graduated dark blue or green will show up as banded. You could probably use less than 24 bits though, if you used a carefully tuned logarithmic scale.

Re:Screw resolution

[Ambush_Bug]

Basically, what you're talking about is dynamic range... I'm not sure what the standard bits per pixel is in photographic cameras is, but in astronomical cameras, you can get up to 32 bits per pixel. Though, when you're looking at stars and the like, the dynamic range necessary is much, much larger than normalish light conditions for photograph.

Re:Screw resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Pixim, Inc. is developing exactly what you are looking for. They have the image buffer integrated on the same chip as the sensor. This allows for better capture techniques to enable taking scenes with a very high dynamic range.

Re:Screw resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey that's cool (I was the original AC poster). The image gets a bit washed out to grey in parts though (the blue in the walls is going to grey for example). I suspect that might be fixable with the right mixing algorithm... I'll have to get of my butt and code the damn thing now! Thanks.

Re:Screw resolution

[Joe Decker]

Ah, I understand the issue now. So here's my next idea: Place two (or more) sensors on each pixel. Have one sensor respond to the "typical" light ranges with a certain precision. Have the other one respond only to low light variations (it would wash out completely for higher light values, but its output could be disregarded at higher light levels). Assuming it had the same level of granularity as the other sensor, but it was operating over a smaller range, you'd effectively get finer sensitivity in low light conditions.

Not for free, unfortunately. The problem is that most sensors are already maxed out at how much light they can detect per unit area. So, to make a more sensitive detector, you have to increase the area of the sensor you're using to detect it. To do a low and a high sensor, you'll end up giving up image resolution--or a bigger (and exponentially more expensive) chip, probably the former.

Re:Screw resolution

[llin]

hParnoff Coproration announced developing a CMOS sensor which could capture VGA images with 17 stops of dynamic range. Here's a link to the press release on dpreview

Re:Screw resolution

[llin]

That should say 'Sarnoff Corporation'

Re:Screw resolution

[Alan Partridge]

"let's say pure black is light level 0 and pure white is level 10. now if traditional film can capture the range from 2-8 then digital film captures 3-7, so digital provides less shadow detail and less highlight detail than traditional film." Nope, you're completely wrong here. If the range of brightness in the scene is 0-100, your film camera will give you a linear response from 33-66, whereas your digital might give you linearity from 20-80. The problem with CCDs is that they will hard clip your exposure at the top end, whereas film NEVER will, and sink you into noise at the bottom - just like film will. You can also develop your latent film image in different ways to extract different results (you may do a dilute development to drag extra detail out of the toe of the curve, for example), this option isn't available with CCD images, but other exciting DSP options are. Film's REAL S-shaped response is the key to it's performance, and this is often simulated wth CCD cameras, but for no other reason than "look".

Re:Screw resolution

[Ioldanach]

Sure you could transform the scale, but the problem is that you typically only have 8 bits of intensity information (or maybe 10 in some cases, I believe). That not a very wide range. I don't remember exactly what the dynamic range of film is, but it's way higher than this (maybe someone knowledgeable could give their 2c about this).

I'm sure I'll get flamed from a filmphile for pointing it out, but at best the color range of a film camera has been placed at 100 levels by some of the most competent experts out there. Compare that to your 8 or 10 bits, and you have 100 levels vs. an available 256 or 1024. Of course, the problem may be that the 100 levels of film are logarithmic, based on what the eye can discern, and the 8 or 10 bits of a digital are linear. Of course, that just means someone needs to come up with a jpg-like format which scales the numbers logarithmically, and decodes them later for displaying.

Re:Screw resolution

[jafuser]

[...] no amount of processing will make it magically appear.

What? You mean all those movies where they zoom 1000:1 into an image are all fake?

Re:Screw resolution

[tricorn]

Walking from a normally lit room out into the sunlight can mean a change in ambient brightness of around a factor of 400.

A large part of that is the iris clamping down. Cameras can do the same thing. The eye is still astounding, but you're overstating the range it can see in a single scene. The interior of that room, when you're outside, would have few or no visible details.

when's this comming out?

[ryusen]

Personally, this is major droll material for me. I hope this technology comes to the consumer level by the time i'm ready to dish out money for another digital...
According to this article it says the first camera with this new sensor will be Sigma's SD9 SLR digital camera. No details on when, how much, what features. Anyone have more info on when this will be available? domo

Re:when's this comming out?

[Troed]

Quoting from the linked article in the topic:

The first camera to use the new sensor will be the $3,000 Sigma SD9 D-SLR (Sigma lens mount), Kodak have also shown an interest in using the X3 technology.

You _did_ ask for "how much" :)

Re:when's this comming out?

[Anonymous Coward]

An article at the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/11/technology/11FOV E.html suggests that some of the digital imaging industry stalwarts, such as Sony (who just invested in a new CCD Fab), may throw their weight around to either sit on or delay the introduction of this technology into the mass market. Go Sony!

Re:when's this comming out?

[danEger]

Here , on Foveon's site you will find some details:

Question
When will the Sigma SD-9 be available?

Answer
Sigma will begin taking orders for the SD-9 digital SLR camera at the PMA show on Feb. 24, 2002. The company plans to begin shipping in May 2002. Please refer to the Sigma website for more information (http://www.sigma-photo.com).


Question
How much will the Sigma SD-9 cost?

Answer
Please refer to the Sigma website for specific information regarding the Sigma SD-9 digital SLR camera (http://www.sigma-photo.com).

I couldnt find any info on the camera on the sigma site though..

Re:when's this comming out?

[Anonymous Coward]

we are not interested in NY Times articles - they are closed source.

Re:when's this comming out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, this is major droll material for me.

Really? I fail to see the humour.

Re:when's this comming out?

[stripes]

No details on when, how much, what features. Anyone have more info on when this will be available?

Sure, the front page of dpreview has 3 pointers to X3 stuff, including the Sigma camera. More info in the forums, but you have to dig for that.

Re:when's this comming out?

[akuma(x86)]

Info from the foveon faq on their website:

Question

When will the Sigma SD-9 be available?

Answer

Sigma will begin taking orders for the SD-9 digital SLR camera at the PMA show on Feb. 24, 2002. The company plans to begin shipping in May 2002.

SNS OWNED BY AC

[DonkeyHote]

SNSJ OWNED BY AN AC, FjEER THE
AC RETARDS WE 0Wn J00... We will
destroy the cultist of the g0at.

Zpvsc pttb oo pv odfef b smjfs upe b z uibuu if i vh f
qspk fduz p v k vtud pnq mf ufe b gufsf jh iun pou itp
gm p oh ipvs t- h svf mjo hs ftfbs dibo eq bjogv msf w
j tjpot - offet xpslU ifqsp kf d u- xi j di xpvm ewfu
b lfon p tuiv n botnp s f u ib ouis ff xf fltu pg vmmz s
f wjf x -x bt hmb o dfeb ucz zp vs c p ttgps b q qspy jnb
uf mz57t f d poe tc fg psfi ffnb jmf ezpv -tu buj oh p
omzJ uij o l uijt off e t xps lJ o ijt v tvbm ejs f dubo
e fg gj djfou nboo fs-i fpg gfsfe opg vsui f st v hhf
tujp ot p oxbz tui fqsp k fdu dpvm ecfj n qsp wf e p s x
ifu ifsui f f ouj sfqsp kfdu- pskvt uui fftu jn b uf
e 26x pse t ifsfb e-off etxps lUifd pnnvo jdbuj po
nb sltzp vsg jst uj oufs bduj poxju izpv sc ptt tj o
dfmb tut qsjo hxif oifu pm ezp vu i b ub opuif sq sp k
fdu zpv ib e kvt udpn qmf ufex bto ufybd um zxi b uif
ib ejon joe

Makes sense for monitor displays

[PowerTroll 5000]

Since most often colors on monitors are represented by RGB values which determine the color.

great news

[DrSkwid]

i think !?

When I went vegan over 10 years ago I chose to give up my darkroom (paper & film contain gelatine). I've been waiting in earnest for the photographic digital revolution!

Hopefully this will bring down the price of decent digital SLR cameras. All the ones I like the look of are about $1k and I've got too many other things on the list without burning a grand on a camera (+ a decent sized IBM microdrive + lenses etc.etc.)

I wonder if this will bring other benefits like clarity & shutter speeds available.

Re:great news

[Anonymous Coward]

Try meat sometime. You'll like it.

Damn vegan weirdo.

Re:great news

[Asikaa]

"When I went vegan over 10 years ago I chose to give up my darkroom (paper & film contain gelatine)."

Digital cameras use plastic in their construction. Many types of plastic use a milk protein in their composition. Do you write to camera manufacturers to ensure that they do not use milk protein in their plastic?

Just how far do you take the vegan thing?

Re:great news

[Alioth]

$1K for a digital SLR camera? More like $5K.

I don't have any idea why digital cameras that'll take my Nikon lenses are so ridiculously expensive. The reason I haven't bought a digital camera yet is that I can't stand the idea of spending more money on a camera which has the optics of a cheap compact camera than I did on my SLR camera. That and the very noticable artifacts present in most digital photographs (and the lack of being able to do things like leave the shutter open for long exposure shots).

Re:great news

[anonymous_wombat]

You aren't supposed to eat the paper (or the film).

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

Just how far do you take the vegan thing?

as far as i can without going completely crazy

"Strive to survive causing the least suffering possible"

thankfully it includes my own

Re:great news

[geekoid]

You won't use geleting, but you will buy a camera put together by women and children making 10cents an hour, in sweat shops?
to sum up:
Jello bad, Slavery good.
nice belief you got there.

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

hmm well yes, can't argue with that

I have been involved in direct action to try and highlight the horrors of 3rd world debt resulting in some tokenism from our government.

I am appalled that Western consumerism drives such business models. Almost everything in this room is an imported good manufactured outside my native country.

I try and buy as much of my food as possible from local producers.

So you've got your own electronics manufacturing plant there then I guess. The computer is one you built by hand from locally sourced components I suppose. I'm impressed at your resourcefulness.

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

Try meat sometime. You'll like it.

hey moron, I'm not only 10 years old!

Who says I don't like it anyway?

It's just wrong.

Re:great news

[IronChef]

In the vegan lifestyle is there any situation when meat is OK? Take hunting, for example; in some parts of the world, deer hunters are an important population control. Without them, the deer may multiply too much and begin to starve... thinning the herd is critical to the health of the population as a whole. How does a vegan see this situation?

Is it better to let nature take its course even if that's bad for the animals?

Can humans and their tools ever be seen as part of nature?

Is there ever a time when a human can kill an animal and not be "exploiting" it?

Is it acceptable to "exploit" an individual animal for the benefit of the group?

Lastly, a hypothetical scenario for you: assume that there exists a tasty animal. This strange creature is not raised on farms... the only way it is "harvested" is when it is found dead in the wild of natural causes. For the sake of argument, if this kind of carrion was good eats, would consuming it be consistent with the vegan lifestyle?

Just curious. Not trying to get in yer face.

Re:great news

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

"You won't use geleting, but you will buy a camera put together by women and children making 10cents an hour, in sweat shops?"

But film cameras still have to be made aswell, they're in the same boat as digital. Unfortunatly you don't really have a choice weather your camera was made via slave labour or not. But you can choose between film and digital.

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

vegan lifestyle : There isn't one really. It's a series of ongoing choices made by the individual. Vegan is just a quick label to tell/warn other people.

As for the deer, they got along just fine for millions of years before people shot them. Looks like the shooters killed all the predators. What a mess! A difficult situation, my in the field decision would probably be different from the one I'm about to type. The population means nothing. Shooting an individual means everything to that individual. Deer, like most animals, self regulate their populations to food supply. Weak animals can't breed. The population will find a sustainable level given enough time.
Solution, do nothing. Except maybe take some food down once in a while.

Is it better to let nature take its course even if that's bad for the animals?
"the animals" don't exist. Individuals do. Nature will take it's course no matter what we do.

Can humans and their tools ever be seen as part of nature?
They already are, humans seem to think that they aren't animals. The tools at our disposal means we can produce more food with less animal products. You may have gathered it's the suffereing at the individual level that I feel is important. That may not be true of other vegans.

Is there ever a time when a human can kill an animal and not be "exploiting" it?
I try to think without the distinction between species. So replace the word animal with the word human and see how you feel about that. That's generally how I feel.

Is it acceptable to "exploit" an individual animal for the benefit of the group?
An eternal philisophical question. Humans often sacrifice themselves for the good of the group. My existence is exploited every day by those that have power over my life. Everywhere I turn profit is deemed king over people. Power & wealth isn't distributed anywhere near fairly.
If you stop considering animals and people distinct then your own values about fairness and cooperation can be applied.

Just because a cow can't talk doesn't mean it has no emotions. It's such biological arrogance to consider NO OTHER BEING except once branch of hairless monkeys sentient.

It's simple to see that a dog will feel hungry or cold. So why not lonely or happy?

I've worked on farms and been involved in the "animal rights" movement. I used to eat meat. I used to shoot rabbits and birds. I've seen first hand the disdain people have for the creatures around them. It's not difficult to witness the many terrible ways humans treat each other.
Here I am in my safe comfortable surroundings. I have no need to eat cows so why make them die for me? Mass murderers of humans are generally reviled and yet we kill millions and millions of cows, pigs & chickens. It's so wrong.

There's no real reason I shouldn't shoot you in the face and eat your tasty flesh. Out of courtesy, I choose not to and I extend that courtesy to other species. If it came down to it though and I wasn't feeling noble you might find yourself on the barby (unless you got me first of course :)

Carrion - nope, no reason why not (except digestion problems)

thanks for your curiosity, much better than the usual hostility people give me just for being nice!

It's all quite irrational but I have the luxury of choice and this is the choice I've made.

Incedentally and quite ironically I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease a couple of years ago. Recent research has made strong links between the consumption of cows milk and the onset of the disease. Just my luck eh! The cows got me.

Re:great news

[NortonDC]

Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but digital cameras are not vegan-compatible either. The color LCD in the camera (all color LCD's) include proteins extracted from fish sources. I shit you not.

Re:great news

[WowTIP]

Wasn't there some company that were experimenting with a digital back that was shaped as an ordinary roll of camera film? That seemed like an excellent idea to me at the time, because then you could use the camera best suited the situation. Anyone know what happened to that technology?

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

oh well, that's that sketch knackered then

Re:great news

[FrostedChaos]

Your arguments are based entirely on the idea that humans are no better than animals. Quote:

There's no real reason I shouldn't shoot you in the face and eat your tasty flesh. Out of courtesy, I choose not to...

Perhaps this indifference to humanitity is the real reason you get "hostility" from other people?

Examine it carefully, and you will see that the rest of your argument consists entirely of childish appeals to sentiment, and a willful blindness to the cruelty of nature. Nature, red in tooth and claw, has maimed, poisoned, plagued, and eventually killed more animals than humanity will ever know. A millenium ago, a faith in the "natural balance" may have been understandable. Today, modern science has revealed nature for the monster it truly is.

Another central tenet of your faith is the primacy of the individual. Quote:

The population means nothing. Shooting an individual means everything to that individual. Deer, like most animals, self regulate their populations to food supply... Solution, do nothing.

So even if my actions to save one individual cost the lives of countless others, it is still acceptable? When deer overbreed, the ones who can't find food die. And it's not simply a matter of not finding a mate... we're talking actual starvation.

Here's a better example. Suppose everyone thought the way you did. Among other things, they would stop buying meat products and drinking milk. The result would be a mass extinction of farm animals such as chickens, pigs, and cows. "Genocide" isn't a very pretty word, is it? Neither is "hypocrisy."

If you remember nothing else in your life, remember this: animals can experience pleasure or pain, but man is the only "animal" that can be cruel or kind. By putting yourself on the same plane as a cow, you demean your humanity and put unreasonable expectations on the animals. By the way, the idea that humans are no better than animals was a central tenet of Nazism. If the human spirit is valueless, if the human body is worth no more than that of a pig, there really is no reason not to shoot your neighbor in the face, as you put it. And no objections to the quest to breed a "superior Germanic race" through selective breeding and mass murder.

Having said all this, I do think the conditions some farm animals are forced to live in is appalling. As soon as we are able, we should move to a better system (tissue cultures, anyone?) But you, sir, need to rethink your assumptions.

Look in the mirror. What do you see?

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

Your arguments are based entirely on the idea that humans are no better than animals.
I know, that's my point. That isn't a refuation it's restating my hypothesis.

Nature, red in tooth and claw, has maimed, poisoned, plagued, and eventually killed more animals than humanity will ever know
So that makes cruelty & murder okay?

"Genocide" isn't a very pretty word, is it? Neither is "hypocrisy."
yawn, so many times
mass extinction of farm animals - so what?
Species don't count.
If you knew your child would be slaughtered at 1 year old would you become pregnant?

man is the only "animal" that can be cruel or kind.
don't be supid

Look in the mirror. What do you see?
myself, nothing more

we're talking actual starvation.
or actual shooting, so what

Perhaps this indifference to humanitity
it's not indifference, it's no deliniation
you fail to notice I don't shoot anyone in the face

By the way, the idea that humans are no better than animals was a central tenet of Nazism.
No it wasn't.

If the human spirit is valueless, if the human body is worth no more than that of a pig
I contend that the pig spirit has value not that the human one doesn't. That the pig is no less than a human. Major difference.

I do think the conditions some farm animals are forced to live in is appalling.
I choose not to perpetuate that by not being involved, what are you doing?

You, sir, need to rethink your assumptions
Why?

I don't kill animals, I don't eat them & try to exploit them as little as possible. What should I change in that, that would make the world better?

Re:great news

[Anonymous Coward]

Say, what kind of living does one make as a martyr?

Re:great news

[Anonymous Coward]

Planning on giving up the idea of digital, now?

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

might do, tougch choice

as someone pointed me toward gelatine free film I might go that route with Kodak photo CDS

Re:great news

[DrSkwid]

20k sterling + profit share + pension + health, programming for a startup
shareholder of an ISP
shareholder of a recruitment agency
work from home telecommuting
own house
own car

that sound okay?

May I have an H1-B so I can work in a sweatshop?

[Anonymous Coward]

May I have an H1-B so I can work in a sweatshop?

Alien Signal found in Sensor!

[DonkeyHote]

Cfg psfb hsffj ohu pnbss z nzi vt c b oe Nbsl- Jb tl f
ei jnu ifv tvbm rvft ujp o t2 Epzp vlo p xxib u bibn q
f sj tboe i bwfz p vf wfsbd uvbm mzvtf ep of3 Epzpv t
q f oexf flfo ett qsbx m fejog sp ou p gbtq ps utt q fx
j oh t d sffo -efwp vsjo h dpvd iqp ubupd ijqt4 B sfz
p vsqbs fou tmj lfm zupe sjwf n fup e s j olN b slupm e
uif bqqsp qsjbu fgjct -Jqs f ufo efeup cfm jfw f ij
n-b o etfw f sbmn pou itm bufs xfxfe Cvutp pobg ufs
u ifxf eej oh-J sfbm j{f eJeg psh pu ufou pbt luifn
pt ujnqp su bourv f tuj po pgb mm Xi fozp vtf f bnpvo
ubj o -ep zpv hfub oj ssftj tujcm fvsh fup eptp nfu
i joht uvq jeJno pu fybdu mzbui mfu jd Jvtf eu p ije
fc fi joe qpm ftj ohznd mbttB oex if obtl fe up iv sm
n z t fmgpw f s uifes fb e fe ip st f- Je dpn fup bu fssj
g j fei b mu kv tubtJ sfb dif eu ifi vs em f Tp ui fpomz
uij o hJ nf r v jqqf eup eppo bnpv oubj ojtto bqj utq
j du vsf Boe Nb s ljto unvdi npsfb uimf ujdu ibo J bn
Opo fui fmf tt -i fuij oltif db odmjn c n pvo ubjo tB
umfb tu p odfbz fb s-ifg jo etbnp voubj oif tj nqm z
nv tudmj nc Ps-s buif s-xf nv tudmj ncBg u f sbmm -b
h ppexj gf dmjn ct c zi fsn boj gp om zu pu szup lf f qi
jnp vu pgus pvcm fTp gspn ujn fu pu jn f-xf ijl f v qu
if s fmb ujwfm zub nf I v e t poIj him boetT pn fip xxf
tvs w jw fv otdbu ifeC vuN bsls fdfo umzh puuif cvh
upn pvoub ifnbo t j{fen pvo ubjo Ifibe c ffo evuj g
v mmzqm b zjo huif spm fpgxs juf stt qp v tfb ubdp mv
no xsj ufst d p ogfs fod fjo Tbm uMblf Dj u z- Vubi -b
oeJ x btgf f mjohh vjmu z -tpJ g ppm jti m zbhsf feUi
f tfwfs bm{j m mjpog ppu usfl vq ui fnpvo ub jo xbtt
us fov p vt-c v uxfn bobh feju plbz Xfiv g g fe boex f
qv ggfe boex ftubs fejo cfxjm efs nfo ub upvs fss b
o u dpnq bt tFwfo tp- x fnbef juu puifu p qboe xfsf g
f fmj ohbcj udpd l zX ibut uifcj hefbm bcpv uVub i n
p voubj ot Opx -OfxZ pslT ub ufib tNPV OU B J OTC v ux
if ojuxb tuj nfupe ft df oe-N bs lef dje feup cf be w
fouv spvt J xbouf eupd mj ncep xoui f tbnf s pv ufxf
eubl fovq Cvu opppp p ppp pppp ppp ppp pp p-t bj eNb
s l Ui b uxp vmecf cpsjo h If b wfog ps cjex ftf fuif t
bn f q jf dfpg bxp sm edmb ttnpv oub jo-u xj df Jutf b
tz- if tbje -qpj ou j oh busb o epntq put popv sn bqX
f dbomp pqbs pv oebo eh pu ijtx bzI fxb tj ou ifhsj q
pgpo fpgui pt f js sf tjt ujc mfnp v oub jovsh ftU if
s fxbto pu ijo hup e pcvug pmmp xboe ipqf if dpv m eu
fm m fbt ug sp nx f t uBugj stu-p vs qb uibq qfbsf eup
c f bus bjmb oe uifqv mmpg hsbwj uzej eou uisfb ufo
up qmv oh fv tep xo xbs eUif o- t v ee f om z-uif npvou
bj obqqf bsfe -qsjt uj ofbo evou pvdif ec z ivn bog
ff uB gufs gj gu ffo njo vuf t pgg sbou jdxbo e fsj oh
-J tqpu ufex ibub qqfb sfeu pcfbx bmlbc mf us b jmN
bs ltuve jfeu ifn bq-qs fuf oe feupv oef stubo ej u
-boep ggx fx f ouB txfmb ufsmf bso fe-ju xbtbu sb j
m bmmsj hi uuif usb j mpgbu fnqp sbsjm zes znpv oub
j ot u sfbnJ u xb tnps fds pvdi bcm fuibo x bmlb c mf G
spo ujfst nb oN bs lus jfeu ps fnb j ovq sjhi u bug js
tu Cv uif ofwf s nbo bhfe n p sfuib o btuf q ps ux pcfg
p sfmpp tjo hijtc bmb odf boe gbmmj ohup ijts fbsJ
eft df oefej obtbg fs- t fbuf e qptju jpo iboe tsfb
dijoh gps cvti mjnc tboe h fuu jo hobcc f e czu ipso
t-lof f tqp j o uf etlzx bs e-gff u jodi johe p xox b s
e bu b tq f f euib u xpvme nbl fbtob jmm pplmj lf bif s
pN bslq ppiq ppi fen z tub od fp smbd lu ifs fp g bu gj
s tuCvu b gu fstf wfsbm d mp tf dbmmt ift bxuif c f of
gj utp gqspd f fejoh czui f tfbu pgp vsqbo utBoe J n
fbou ibu mjuf sbmm zxif oxfsf bd if eu ifcpu up n-n
z dpuu p otm bdl txfs fups ot fb u mf ttC z uifo x fx fs
fm b ufgp sui fb jsqp sut ivu umf X ftqsj ouf euis pv
h iuif i pufm -j h op sjoh uif ip ssjg jfe cfnvt f eh m
bodf tp gfnq mpzf f t bo e qbus potB txf sb o- Nb slus
jf e u pqsp wjef dpw fsbtJ hsb tq feu if tf bupgn z t i
sfe ef eqbo ut Uifoi fifm eui f ti vu um f esjw fsi pt
ub hf-bt J hsb c cfet p n fdmp uij ohb oeu pplbc b uij
o uif ipufm mp cc ztc buisp pn tjol Ipxej eJ nbo b hf
ui jtUsv tunfz pvep ouxb ouu plo pxBmu i pvh i fyib
v tufe boe g bnjti fe -J gfmu hsbu fgvm upcf bmjwf T
p p o Je cfipn fu isp xjoh Nbs l ttdb uuf sf ed mpu i ft
jo upui fi bnq f sbo e dp byjoh i jnbxb z gsp nu i fuw B
tt vn joh-p gdp vstf - Jc fbuui fsb qgpsn ppojo htf
wfsbm Npsn pot

Interesting, but no revolution

[dzero]

This is interesting, but not revolutionary.

High-end digital imaging devices (mostly digital and analog video cameras, but perhaps some still cameras) have been using 3 CCD chips for a long time to achieve RGB values for each pixel. It's usually done with a prism system that splits the incoming light into different colors which then are registered on different CCD chips.

In 1-chip devices, color is acheived through a matrix of filters which covers the CCD chip, allowing only certain wavelengths of light to reach each pixel on the CCD.

It seems to me that what this will really do is give us smaller, higher quality imaging devices. Let's hope X10 doesn't launch a while new popunder campaign...

Re:Interesting, but no revolution

[ESD]

>It seems to me that what this will really do is
> give us smaller, higher quality imaging devices.

To be honest, I surely hope this will not be the case.. One of my problems with digital photography actually is the small size of the CCD's, which gives an enormous depth of field compared to 35mm film.
(my camera, a Minolta DiMAGE 7, at f/8 gives the same DOF as a 35mm camera at about f/32 if I remember correctly.. this is all very nice, unless you want a very shallow DOF)

Furthermore, the usage of those small CCD's prevent SLR technology from being used in digital cameras (such as phase-detect autofocus, which is fast, a real mirror, true TTL flashmetering).
Yes, there are digital SLRs, but I have not seen any with a full-frame CCD, so you always have a certain multiplication factor for your focal length (your lens acts as if it is more like a telelens). Your CCD is just only seeing the central portion of the frame.

Gtnx
Marcel

PS. Don't think I don't like my camera... I really love it, but there are many things 35mm does better, and I'm hoping for improvements as much as anybody else.

Re:Interesting, but no revolution

[Anonymous Coward]

They use small sized CCD to keep the cost down - save money on the cheaper & smaller diameter lens and on the silicon die.

Re:Interesting, but no revolution

[CConkle]

An advantage of digital photography, however, is that making your DOF shallower is trivial to pretty easy, except in some circumstances. God gave us a whole lot of blur/defocus filters (some quite advanced, even) for good reason. :)

Dont feel too bad

[Anonymous Coward]

This wont see the light of day for 5+ years. And I just did the same thing with my GeForce2 Go for my laptop. The day I buy the laptop the GeForce4 Go comes out.

Re:Dont feel too bad

[Alan Partridge]

try reading the article, numb-nuts. Sigma is introducing the first camera based on a Foveon X3 in around two weeks time.

Stephen King, author, dead at 54

[Anonymous Coward]

I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

Can You imagine..

[Anonymous Coward]

a beowulf cluster of smelly h1-b indians?

Re:Can You imagine..

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, that would fry the flesh inside your nostrils.

Wow, better than the human eye

[j3110]

So, what am I goind to do with a camera that can see things better than I can? Human eyes don't detect color and intensity on the same sensor. Is this going to help with telescopic photography? I don't understand :) Even if it made resolution sharper, or cameras smaller, I still don't see a point? Is it going to be used in medical devices? Still, fiber optics work just great. If the theatre has more problems with lighting and projecting than capturing. It won't make digital zoom a good idea.

All arguements of usefullness aside, I could have made that on my desk. Measure intensity at the top. An orange polarizer. Measure intensity again. A red polarizer. Measure intensity yet again. Subtract blue from red from orange to get yellow. Subtract orange from unpolarized to get blue.

Is it really that great of a technology? It's not really innovative. It's not even really useful. Do you really think CCD is the limiting factor of resolution of digital cameras? I'm still betting on memory, processor, and memory bandwidth to get the "shutter speed" down.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[Anonymous Coward]

Usefullness?

How about that fact that it captures the real color for each pixel, instead of the color being extrapolated by software using surrounding pixels in most single CCD digital and DV cameras. Translation better quality pictures without the use of multiple CCDs.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[j3110]

hehe... that would make the second computer device to overlap colors. Other than printers, no other computer device nor even the human eye does it. I dare say that this offers very little over a standard CCD. It's funny that it is even mixed in software considering the computer display is just going to seperate it back into RGB again. Even if it didn't, it would offer nothing over CCD with the same number of sensors. Just think about it for a second and you'll see why. It's going to require three sensors per color on their solution. It requires three sensors per color on the current solution. The difference is, it will require much more effort to make thiers than what is already being made. They can't physically put the sensor over another sensor, therefor: they could have just put all the sensors on the bottem layer to begin with. It's an utterly useless invention.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[Alioth]

It's not just the resolution - it'll do away with the awful artifacts that are present on even the best of today's digital cameras.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude what the hell are you taking about! A standard CCD capture does NOT use three sensor to capture the color for a pixel. The standard CCDs use filters to screw up the original color and only capture a third (red, green or blue) of the original color. Software then uses the surrounding pixels to extrapolate/guess the original of the pixel. This process by nature is lossy and will never give you the original for all your pixels. The only way around this for the standard CCDs was to use 3 CCDs to capture the images as done in some high end DV camera (dont know of any still cameras that have 3 CCDs). The X3 is step forward, albeit a small one, but a step forward nonetheless.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[j3110]

Thanks for explaining how the human eye works :) hehe Thats like running 32bit textures in 16bit color. If there is an increase in quality, it's so minute that it's not worth changing the production and paying the patent costs. If there is artifacting in the current process, I'm sure its because of poor design or cheep material, etc. I'm sure they don't have a device that can detect the color without a polarizer (or filter as you call it). If they don't, then they are using 3X the number of sensors, thus its really no better than a lot of CCD then is it? Just because manufacturers use pretend resolutions and calculate data to fill it in is the fault of the manufacturer, not the technology. Same number of sensors of CCD is going to give the same quality as this.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[flink]

A large-format camera also "sees" better than your eyes. The advantage is that you can blow the print up larger without any discernable loss of detail. You also have more fidelity to waste in processing without having to sacrifice quality.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[j3110]

yeah... but that doesn't explain why this technology is preferable to just more ccd :)

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[flink]

I really don't know. I was just responding to why you would want a camera that sees better than the human eye. I'm not really up on digital photo tech. :)

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no problem with shutter speed. There are high speed digital camera that are used to analyze explosives.

In a CCD array, the shutter speed is just a strobe signal that is used to capture the analog charge into a capacitor. This charge is then carry out in an analog version of shift register.

CPU speed & bandwidth etc has nothing to do with shutter speed. Light sensitivity and the size of the charge has a lot more to do with shutter speed.

Clueless Geek: 0 AC: 1

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[Alan Partridge]

why post on a subject that you clearly do not understand? The RGB sensors are effectively STACKED, and thus the sample truly coincident. It's very much like having a 3CCD design in a single chip package, and avoids ENTIRELY the Bayer filter image reconstruction phase of the process. This technology is a big advance, make no mistake about that.

Re:Wow, better than the human eye

[Anonymous Coward]

if you read the article you would understand that it won't require 3 times the sensors... ONE sensor is doing the job of 3. Also, even if you don't understand the technology the sample pictures they provide speak for themselves. With a normal digital camera (yes even the expensive ones) when you enlarge the image you get artifacts and the image colors become distorted becuase it has to go through a filter. This does away with that and at even high digital zooms there are virtually no artifacts.

Whats new?

[zebs]

It is a well-known property of silicon that light of different colors is absorbed at different depths in the silicon; blue light is absorbed near the surface, green light is absorbed farther down and red light is absorbed even deeper

Why couldn't this have been done before? Whats been the break through that has enabled this new development?

Or is it a case of no-one thinking of it before?

Re:Whats new?

[kfg]

No, it's not a case of noone thinking of it before. It's simply the case that the engineering skill and knowledge to apply a known basic principle necessarily always lags behind the understanding of the basic physical properties.

Just think about it a minute. You've just discovered a new property of a substance. Does that mean you can just run out and start making new revolutionary things?

No, of course not, you still have to take the time to work out the engineering.

Certainly the most commonly known story of this phenomenon is the invention of the light bulb by Dr. Swan.

Oh, sorry. Most people don't know that story, they know the one about Edison, which actually further illustrates my point.

When a new basic principle is discovered there are generally thousands of people to whom the implications are patently evident, and the race is on to see who gets the credit for exploiting it first.

Swan actually demonstrated his light bulb before Edison did, and if Edison hadn't even bothered to try the light bulb would have been just as available in the exact same time frame. ( By the way, the same thing applies to the idea that Bill Gates is somehow personally responsible for the PC revolution).

But we DO pretty much all know the story of how Edison understood the basic principle involved, and how long it took, and the sacrifices he had to undergo, in order to learn how to *apply* that principle usefully.

N'cest pas?

KFG

Re:Whats new?

[esonik]

It has been done before, maybe not for RGB sensors, but certainly for solar cells: Triple Junction Solar Cells.

AC Filth Troll Filth?

[DonkeyHote]

And the Truth shall set you Free!

Come to the Lord, he shall be your salvation!

Higher Quality at lower resolution...

[Christopher Bibbs]

is better than just higher resolution. If you just keep uping the resolution of the cameras, you also need to up the memory or use some lossy compression. With this tech (if it proves to be cost effective), you can keep your images to a reasonable size and make them clearer and better suited to using in print.

Re:Higher Quality at lower resolution...

[TFloore]

Required resolution is all a matter of what you want to do with the image. It has very little to do with what kind of sensor you are capturing it with.

If you want on-screen display, anything larger than your monitor resolution is kinda wasted, unless you want to spend time cropping images. So that's, what, 1600x1200 as a working maximum necessary?

If you want to print an image, you want 300pixels per linear inch, as a working minimum for something you won't mind looking at from 14inches away. Do the math there, and you get your required image resolution...
For "normal" print sizes:
3"x5" = 900x1500 pixels (1.3MPixel)
4"x6" (standard 35mm print, now) = 1200x1800 pixels (2.1MP)
5"x7" = 1500x2100 pixels (3.1MP)
8"x10" = 2400x3000 pixels (7.2MP)
24"x36" (poster) = 7200x10800 pixels (77.7MP)

Okay, the poster resolution is mildly ridiculous, but that's less than what you get with a good 8x10 viewcamera.

Resolution still matters, depending on your use. It's still nice to have the benefits of this sensor for the other reasons mentioned, though.

Vaporware

[martin-k]

Hmm, Foveon. Doesn't that name ring a bell with me? Isn't this the same company that for years has been claiming that their breakthrough CMOS sensors will kill CCD, but never delivered -- at least didn't deliver anything that fit into a standard camera body, as they wanted to.

I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe in 2005. Or 2020.

-Martin

Re:Vaporware

[stripes]

Hmm, Foveon. Doesn't that name ring a bell with me? Isn't this the same company that for years has been claiming that their breakthrough CMOS sensors will kill CCD, but never delivered -- at least didn't deliver anything that fit into a standard camera body, as they wanted to.

About two years, yes. As far as I know the Sigma will be the first camera using their stuff that costs less then $50,000 or so. (Assuming the Sigma doesn't meet the fate of the Pentax 6Mpixel full frame digital...)

On the other hand Sigma seems pretty sure of when they will release, and Phil did shoot a prototype camera using the chip... so not totally vapor.

Speaking of resolution

[Reality Master 101]

If anyone is interested how photography resolution compares to digital, I found a great link once about this: http://www.users.qwest.net/~rnclark/scandetail.htm

It's pretty eye-opening if you think digital photography is getting close to film.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Matey-O]

You're neatly thrashing the resolution limitatations and missing it's benefits.

I'll direct you to Philip 'Ex-Ars Digita' Greenspun's more balanced review here: http://www.photo.net/photo/digital/choosing.html

(Barring the fact he's talking about older digicams, there's newer stuff on photo.net, and the theory on colorspace is valid.

Further, having dont both film scanning and digital, there's NO DUST ISSUES in a picture that starts it's life out as a digital picture!

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Alan Shutko]

It would be even better if Clark had compared digital shots of the same scene, rather than taking a picture of a print with a low-end digital camera, and setting up such things as "4.7MPixel equivalent" images.

In general, it's an interesting link, but should be taken with some skepticism.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[donglekey]

It isn't really the resolution that matters right now, it is the color. Current digital cameras suck. Nothing compares to film's color, but film is incredibly difficult to work with. Film's resolution will go untouched for quite a while. I could buy a camera and take a picture with 120mm film, but so what? It serves a completely different purpose than this does. If I wanted to go make a movie, it would cost a rediculous amount of money with film. If I had a camera that would do 1080i or 1080p and had color like the pictures in their demonstration page, I would be set, and it would be suitable for digital projection and even acceptable for film transfer. Resolution and quality are a balance, and sheer resolution doesn't always matter, and in this case, they have it good enough for the time being. Someone has to make high-def video cameras for consumers a reality, it would be a gold mine.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Matey-O]

One of the nice side-benefits of a digital camera is a) the instant feedback, leading to b) color adjustment on the fly. There's no need to burn a roll of film pushed a stop, and you can do nifty things like take a picture outside on a sunny day, then walk inside and take pictures of cars under Tungsten-halogen lamps with nothing more than a reset of the white balance.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[stripes]

It isn't really the resolution that matters right now, it is the color. Current digital cameras suck

Interesting. The first thing I noticed switching from APS to a mid-range digital was the much better color from digital. When I switched to a film SLR I noticed much worse color until I discovered that you could buy more the Kodak Gold. When I went back to digital (this time a DSLR) the color was still pretty good, better then most films, but not better then say Fuji Relia.

I think this is going to depend a lot on the camera, your monitor, and whatever you print it on.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you plan to use it on computers anyway, you have to scan the films and you lose a lot of resolution in that step.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[SuperKendall]

4000 dpi film scanners are pretty common now, so you still get higher resolution than most digital cameras (and usually the film scanners woork at 16 bit color depth or higher).

However, with film even if you don't get all the resolution from a scanner now, it's still there on the film to be had as scanner prices drop, or if you really need a small section of a large print you can pay for a really hi-res scan of the film.

Personally I still find film a better value if you're shooting 10+ rolls on a trip. That's a lot of storage for quality digital prints!

Re:Speaking of resolution

[iangoldby]

Most of us don't even use a tripod, let alone large-format film. For a normal hand-held shot with normal consumer film, his comparisons are not really valid.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Ogerman]

It's pretty eye-opening if you think digital photography is getting close to film.

Depends on what you're calling 'film photography.' If you mean professionally prepared, then scanned 35mm slides, then no, digital cameras aren't quite there yet. But, if you're talking the average person who uses an automatic 35mm camera with average 35mm film and then takes it to the nearest 1-hour developer at the cost of $0.75 per picture, then yes, digital cameras have already far surpassed film in both quality and economics. Not to mention the fact that digital cameras, while not capturing quite as large a colorspace, are quite linear. IMO, color rendition is far superior to film with regards to capturing what our eyes see compared to the exaggerated colors that film often portrays. Yes, I know our eyes are logarithmic in color sensitivity, but that doesn't mean you want to compound this with non-linearities in film!

Re:Speaking of resolution

[ehiris]

This is quite interesting because digital photography might even pass film resolution soon.

Does anybody know the DPI of movie theater film?

Re:Speaking of resolution

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Not sure when that artical was written Or what he was on when he write it.
He was using a Nikon Coolpix 950 2MP camera, and a HP C200 (1152x872). That should set off alarm bells to start. Then, using the results from those 2, old, low quality cameras, he simulates what the resolution would be for a higher MP camera by some fancy vapor-maths.

For a more un-biast and real-world comparison of film vs. digital, take a look at these:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/iso100-400.htm
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/d30_vs_film.htm

This guy is a landscape photographer who works alot with film, in both 35mm, medium and large formats. It's worth a look round his site, he has some very nice images there, and plenty of other photography articals to if that's you cup of tea.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Apotsy]

Yes, I've found that Kodak film pretty much sucks for color. Many years ago, I started using Fuji exclusively, and have never looked back. I'm very happy with the color I get from it.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention the fact that digital cameras, while not capturing quite as large a colorspace, are quite linear. IMO, color rendition is far superior to film with regards to capturing what our eyes see compared to the exaggerated colors that film often portrays. Yes, I know our eyes are logarithmic in color sensitivity, but that doesn't mean you want to compound this with non-linearities in film!

So you know that our eyes are logarithmic, but you still say that linear is "superior" at "capturing what our eyes see"? I think maybe what you mean to say is that it is better at "capturing what is actually there".

Of course, the big problem I have with digital imagery is that while color accuracy may be better in some cases, the color gamut is much smaller than that of film. There are a multitude of color spaces out there (sRGB, the Adobe RGB, etc.), but all of them cover only a tiny fraction of the full human-visible color space. We need for all our equipment -- cameras, computer displays, printers, etc. -- to move towards a standard color space like Extended RGB or even RGGB before one can say that digital imagery is where it needs to be.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[skatedork]

Yet another comparison which suprisingly finds in favor of the digital is here.

Michael Reichmann is a professional landscape photographer from the Great White North.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Ogerman]

So you know that our eyes are logarithmic, but you still say that linear is "superior" at "capturing what our eyes see"? I think maybe what you mean to say is that it is better at "capturing what is actually there".

Yes, you are right. "actually there" would be the correct wording.

Re:Speaking of resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

"fancy vapor-maths"?

All the guy did was say, "If you had a camera with resolution of X by Y, here is what it would look like" and scale his images to that resolution.

Hardly "fancy" or "vapor".

Re:Speaking of resolution

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

No. How can you make a judgment on the resolution of all digital camarasm simply be using the results, or 2 old-tech digital cameras. Digitals camera vary wildly in the amount of detail they can capture. No where on that site did I read that he tested other digital cameras. It's silly an unfair comparason. Not tomnetion that the lens quality of a half decent 35mm SLR will capture alot more detail that the lens of an older model CoolPix.

I used a Nikon 950 2 MPixel camera. At different distances, the full image has varying total pixels (shall we say, virtual image size?). test areas 1 and 2 were done at 2 distances to give equivalent fields of view of about 1900 x 2470 (4.7 megapixel image) and 1000 x 1300 pixels (1.3 megapixel image).

??? Sorry. But the only way you really can compare digital to film, is to get a few DSLRs, that takes the same lenes as the 35mm SLR. And take the exact same photo (of course, you will have to take into account the focal length muliplyer. But tht shouldn't affect ot too much).

Does this mean...

[Numair]

People will no longer be able to say "that's a really crappy picture of me, I actually look a lot like Ricky Martin's second cousin" anymore?

Re:Does this mean...

[Slicebo]

Actually, they'll still be able to say this. Have you seen Ricky's second cousin? He looks like he fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

another article on business2.com

[abde]

There's also a decent article on business2.com

http://www.business2.com/articles/web/print/0,1650 ,37797,FF.html

The TRUTH about cats and dogs!

[DonkeyHote]

J xbtph mfem btuo jhiu czbw fsz ib oetp nf-d mb ttz
mp p ljoh -nv di pmef s nbo O pxnpt uxpnf obo e Jno pf
yd fqu jpo bsf tfdsf umzh s bujg j f e czuif p dd bt jp
o bmh b xl fsv omft t db udbm m t boee spp qzes bxf st b
sfj owp mwf ePl bz-n bzcf opuui f tqpo tps t pg ui f B
ou jP hmjo hBee foevn u puifF S BV ogps u vo b uf mz-J
n tvd ib o vopc tfsw bo uqf stp o-ui buJ vtvbm mzib w
f upus jqp wf sb op hmfsu pop u j dfi jnIfs ftbsf dfo
ufyd iboh fxju i ivc czN bslNb slE jezp vtffu ibu h
vzm ffsjo hbuzp vNfX ib uh vzN bsl Uifpo fzpv kvt u
t ufq qfepo pwfsu i fs fpo ui f t us fud i fsIpx f wfs -
f w foJd pvmeo u gbjm up dbu dimb tuoj hi utph mjohJ
umbt u f egps uz g jwf njovu f t- xfmm c fzp oe uifg m b
uuf sjoh tubhf joupu ifl ffqzp vs mbtd j wjpv tfzf
c b m mtup zpv stfm g-c vtu fstub hfCv ui fsftu ifui
johJ nbmn p tuq ptju jwfbm ui pvhi op um jfefu f du p
sqp tjuj wfu ib uuipt fp hmjoh f zft b oe uifs ftu pg
ijnc fmp ohfeu pQb vmOf xn boZft -J lopx uibu tpv o
etvo mjl fm z-j gop ue px osjh iubc tv se X ibu xp vm e
Q bvmO fxnbo cfe p joh bozxi f sfof b snfB oefwf ojg
x fe jec sjfg m zbo etfs foe jqjup vtmz t ibsf u iftb
n fqjfd fpgsf b mftub uf-tv sfm zi fdp vme g joetp n
fu ijoh cf uufs upfzf Boexi zxb touif cvtze p ehjo
hips e ftpgb vup hsb qiip v oet qftu fsjo hboe phm j
o hijn Bmm hp pe bshvn fout Je cfjo dmjo f eupbh sf f
xjuiz pvfy dfq u g ps b gfxef ubj mtIfm p plfek v tu m
j lfzp vef yq f d uQbvm O fxnbo upmp plx juip vuui fi
fmq pgnpw jf n bl fvqPv sfod pvou fsbt tvnjo hxfib
ebof odpvo uf s upp lqmbd fj oOfxZ ps lDjuz -b ds pt
tgs p n Mj o dpm oD fo ufs-b u ifbu fsb oedp o dfsu ib m
mi bwfo bqmbd fuibu tff tjut gbjs psvo gbjst ibsf
p gdfmf csj uz usbgg jdXfn fujou if l joe pgt qpuzp
vibwf up lopxb cpv uup lop xbcpv u- bijee fob xb z-
tf dp o egmpp s-opo upvsj tu zcbs tn b d ljoui fn je e
m fpg upv sj tu df ousb mQsfd jt fm zui ftpsu pgqmb d
fbdfm fcsju znj hiuib ohpvu bo eije fpv ujgif t xb
juj ohg psi jtb d usf t t tqpv tf upg jojti b Mj o dpmo
D fouf sq mb zps bCs p be xbz qfs gpsnb odfBo j efbmm
pd bmfgp sd fmfc txip wb ouu pc fb mpof Ifxbt tnp lj
ohb djhbs Tdsbu diuib uIf xbtn blj oh mpwf upbd jh
b sj obxb zuib uop cpez c vubi putip unp wjft ubs xp
v mee bsfu pep j oq vcmj dJb mnp tugp sh puui fn pt uj
n qps ub ouq jfd fpgf wje f od fNzi vt c boeN b sl -xi p
xjuo fttfe u i fphm joh p shz xi jmft juuj o hb d s p tt
u ifcb sgs p n p vshsf b uq b mQb vm -cbd l tvqnz J EBo e
op-i fej eo uhfu fwf otmjh iumzk fbmpv tJ ogb d u-i
jtw fszx ps etpou iftvc kf d ubtJt btibz fepvu u if
epp sJkvt udpv meo u i f mqn ztf mg -x fsf- Ibib ib ib
J nxjui zpv-b oeift opuJ tip vme qsp cbcm ze p tpn f
ui johbc pvu uijtt pn fui joh p g bkp vs o bmj tujd ob
uvs fMjlf sf t fbsdi j o hQbv mOfx n bot dv ss foub qq
fb sb od ftbo t nblfv q-ij tsf df oux ifsf bc pvu t-u
i fc bstBn fsjdb oFyqs ft t s fdfjq ut-bo eKpbo ofX
pp e xb s etbdu johhj h tCfux ffou ifJo uf s ofu boeb
gfxqi pofdb m mt -J tip vmec fbcmf upds bdl ui jtui
j ohxje fpqf ojobn buufs p g ipv stJti p vmes fb m mz
hf utub s ufes jhi ubx bz-p supnp ss px buui fwfsz m
buft uPou if puif sibo e-Ji bwf upo tpgpu ifst uvg
gup ep-bo e u if sftsf bmmzo psv ti Jogb du-j gJtu b
mm fopv h i-uif usb jm xjmm hs pxdpm eBoeu ifsf xjm
mcfop xb z up q sp wfju xbtou Q bvm

p00rn

[Anonymous Coward]

Porn will be 3x higher quality. Ya for better visual stimulation.

MEEPT!!

[Anonymous Coward]

And another thing about those artificial wombs .. do you have to talk to them afterwards?

MEEPT!!

Range? Focus?

[the bluebrain]

Just surfing through the site ... it seems a little sparse on technical details. Could be a IP issue I guess. Just some things I was looking for:

- Dynamic range: if the pixels are "layered", what is the impact on the dynmic range of the sensor? The way it is pictured, the red layer is at the bottom (I would have expected blue to penetrate the furthest, but there you go) ... how much of the red penetrates, and are the ranges for the "bottom" colours as large as for the "top" colours?

- Focus: depending on how thick the sensor is, this could cut both ways: as it is, if you're doing IR with chemical film, you need to take the shifted focus into account ... here, does this "layered" technology compensate for, or work against the focus shift between colours? (I think this could be quite a selling point)

All in all, though, it looks like *another* reason to postpone getting a D-cam, until cams with these babies come out :)

Re:Range? Focus?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the dynamic range is good than the penetration losses can be compensated in software.

If the thickness of the layer is too high,
then you would need lenses to compensate this (not too difficult). However, in my opinion, this won't be the case. If the pixel length/width are much more than the depth, then this is a non-issue.

Re:Range? Focus?

[Joe Decker]

Focus: depending on how thick the sensor is...

It's gotta be small. I believe typical CMOS layers have depths on the order of a micrometer, which is effectively zero for this purpose. It's not a problem, the scales are massively different.

Re:Range? Focus?

[Anonymous Coward]

The different reflective indices of lens at different wavelenghts results in different focal planes. Don't know if the differences is in the same order of magnitude as the depth of the sensors.

FYI the human eyes has the same problem anyway...

If I may out-geek the original article...

[kindbud]

Please check out superconducting tunnel junction technology, which is the basis for detectors that can measure the frequency of impinging photons. No need for separate RGB pixels - stacked or not - because each pixel can determine the exact frequency or wavelength of each photon it detects. You can take a spectrum and create an image in one exposure with one detector, without using any diffraction gratings or RGB filters.

Re:If I may out-geek the original article...

[Anonymous Coward]

Few problems here. First you have to read the pixel for each photon that falls on it. The amount of charge determines the frequency of the photon. Second, you need to cool the system to 1 degree Kelvin, well below the liquid helium temperature. This is extremely hard and expensive to do with today's technology.

Re:If I may out-geek the original article...

[Arkaein]

So how does this sensor deal with colors that are only possible with combinations of different color photons, such as white light?

Re:If I may out-geek the original article...

[mph]

It provides excellent time resolution, so that you record every detected photon as a separate event, and build up a spectrum (including time-resolution if you want it). You don't confuse a 400 nm photon with two 800 nm photons unless they arrive faster than your sampling interval (which, by design, must be made unlikely for the detector to be useful).

Re:If I may out-geek the original article...

[kindbud]

It is not the function of the detector to perceive color, any more than it is the function of your retina to perceive color. That function is carried out by your visual cortex, whether you are perceiving the scene directly, or perceiving a representation of the scene on a display device.

Re:If I may out-geek the original article...

[Arkaein]

Although perception takes place in our minds, the key to perception of color is in the sensory events that happen right at the retina. There are three types of cones in the retina that are each sensitive to different frequencies. One type is attuned to red, another to green, and the other to blue. A red photon strongly stimulates red cones while stimulating green and blue weakly or not at all. A yellow photon stimulates both the red and green cones moderately, since yellow is between red and green in wavelength.

To perceive white light, all three types of receptor must be stimulated in close proximity. In this way our retinas are actually mechanically more like the current type of digital cameras, with three interspersed but non-overlapping types of color sensors (receptors). This is very different than the type of sensor described above, since each cone in our eye is only sensitive to part of the spectrum, and different types of cones working together are needed for true color perception.

What about CMOS?

[Zarathustra.fi]

Before we all go crazy with Foveon's buzz talk, I think we should see what CMOS cameras have to offer. Although not yet very mainstream, the CMOS sensors are in many ways superior to CCD stuff:

• Low noise, higher quality
  
• Lower light sensitivity due to bigger amount of sensors per pixel (no big ugly photodiodes)
  
• Much lower power consumption (around 1% of a CCD sensor)
  
• Easy fabrication process, since it's all about transistors
  

There are already some (very high-end) digital cameras using CMOS technology, and judging on the sample images I've seen, they are awesome. Take a look at the review of Canon's EOS-D30, for example.

Re:What about CMOS?

[stripes]

There are already some (very high-end) digital cameras using CMOS technology, and judging on the sample images I've seen, they are awesome. Take a look at the review of Canon's EOS-D30 [dcresource.com], for example.

Note that the EOS-D30 is not a "very high end" camera. It is very nice, but it's AF sucks, it has a fairly low frame rate and a small buffer (it's 3ish mega pixels on the other hand tend to crank out better images then all the 5 mega pixel $1000 cameras). The EOS-1D, Nikon D1h/D1x, and Kodak 760 are more like high end cameras (costing from $4000 to $8000), and medium format digital backs are even more expensive...

That's not to disparage the D30 though, it is a great camera, I own one, and enjoy it quite a bit. It is just far from "very high end"...

Re:What about CMOS?

[MadCow42]

Foveon has been making CMOS type chips for quite some time actually... just a special "flavor" of CMOS. They're actually partnered with NEC's semiconductor division, who actually manufactures their chips. Although YOU've never heard of them, the professional photography industry has.

They actually made cameras too in the past, but have stopped that in favor of focusing solely on the chip technology and leaving the rest to the "pros".

Their first camera used an "analog" CMOS chip (their words... better tonal reproduction, wider exposure lattitude)... actually three of them on a prism system, just like a 3-CCD video camera. It was/is stunning... achieving the same effect as their new X3 chip, with a little more complication/cost.

Although the new chip comes along with it's fair share of "buzz talk", they're definately a player, and have a proven track record of amazing quality cameras/chips on their side.

MadCow.

Re:What about CMOS?

[Brat Food]

I used CMOS cameras, and whileits a little better, its still not a holy grail. There is still too much noise from pixle interpolation. Unfortunatly, the project i was working on had a budget of about 10k for camera/lights/etc, so i couldnt delve in to the 20k range of cameras, but i got to use a bunch of them. The difference in some of them is staggering. We have a LONG way till pro-sumer cameras catch up, unless this new tech is cheap and works as promised (hhahahahaha, scuse me). will have to wait and see...

Re:What about CMOS?

[Joe Decker]

Actually, according to the X3 FAQ on Foveon's web site, the X3 sensors are done in a CMOS process, which should give you all the benefits you describe above.

And yes, a well-done CMOS sensors has both practical and photographic qualitiative benefits relative to CCDs.

Re:What about CMOS?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

From the artical:

"The Foveon X3 image sensor is the first image sensor designed and in production using standard 0.18-micron CMOS semiconductor production line."

Re:What about CMOS?

[CConkle]

Regarding the Canon D30, you may note that their new super-high-end camera, the EOS-1D, uses a CCD sensor, not a CMOS sensor. This decision was made for a variety of reasons; primarily, the CMOS sensors are not yet fast enough to do the 8fps (!!) continuous rate that Canon was aiming for (and pretty much achieved) with the 1D. By almost all reviews (I _wish_ I could afford a $5500-odd camera--that's not including lens, incidentally), the new 1D is far superior to the D30 in many issues of image quality. Most interestingly, the 1D can take reasonable pictures at absurdly high ISO equivalence--even ISO1600 (!!) yields amazing pictures, considering. The only real problem with the ("older") CCD design is slightly greater battery draw and an isssue with dust on the sensor (very minor). The color performance of the 1D is absurdly good.

Ehhh.....

[$0 31337]

This is interesting, but not revolutionary.
High-end digital imaging devices (mostly digital and analog video cameras, but perhaps some still cameras) have been using 3 CCD chips for a long time to achieve RGB values for each pixel. It's usually done with a prism system that splits the incoming light into different colors which then are registered on different CCD chips.

In 1-chip devices, color is acheived through a matrix of filters which covers the CCD chip, allowing only certain wavelengths of light to reach each pixel on the CCD.

It seems to me that what this will really do is give us smaller, higher quality imaging devices. Let's hope X10 doesn't launch a whole new pop-under campaign...

Hope Canon uses it

[SID*C64]

Maybe now Canon will finally make a digital camera that can do a full 35mm size frame with the current EOS lenses. This would be excellent for such a product!

Re:Hope Canon uses it

[Dr. Awktagon]

Interestingly, Contax just came out with what I believe is the first full-size sensor in a digital SLR, here's an article about it. But yeah full-size sensor, EOS lenses, in an SLR, that would rock! Oh yeah and it would be nice if it was under $1000...someday..

Re:Hope Canon uses it

[SID*C64]

Nice thanks for the link... oh btw got $7000 I can borrow? ;)

Grandfather Time, and the Amoeba Connection

[DonkeyHote]

2Buu i jtujn f- u ifej m fnnb dpo gspo u joh Qsjnf Nj
oj tu fsBu bm Cj i b sjWbk qb z ff - dboc f qis btf ebtu
i fqs pwf scjb mIbnm fu jboR vf tujp o Uphp upx bsps
o pu-ui bujt ui frvf tujp oUifs fjto pr vf tuj poui
b u tvc tf rv fou upu ifQ bljtu b o j K fi bejBu ub dlbo
e j uxbt btp qi jtu jdbu febu ubdl- ui buupp l q mbd f
jo cspbe ebzmj hiup o uifJ oejb oQbs mjbnf oupo ui
f 24uip gEfd 31 12- uif s fi b tcf fobnb tt jwfp vu q p
vsjoh pg pvu sbh f-bm mbds ptt ui fm b oetdb qfpg Jo
ej b -ju jtb o pv usbh fu ifu z q fpgx i j dixfi bw fop u
pctf swfec fgp s fDbmm t gpsnj m jubs zbduj p o bhbj
otuu iftub u fpgqb lj t ubob sf cfj o h nbef pqf om z-
cz tpnfq f s t potjo qvc mjdn ff ujo ht- boeu ifsf jt
op n p pegps dpo djm j b ups z b q qs pbdi upx b setQ blj
tu b oBCWj t x fmm b x bsf pg u if fo ps n juz pgnbt tj wf
q vcmj d boh fs- jod mve j ohui fi fbwz g ffmj oh pgb g
gspo u-uib uJo e jbotb sf gf fm joh- tp nf pgxip nib
w fcff oq v uuisp vhib ofn puj pobmx s johf s -n boz J
oej bo tsfh b sejub t op u ijoh mf ttui bobt mb q joui
f gbd f pgJo ejbJu jt-u i fsfgp sf -bov oefst ub ufn
f ou upj otjov bufui buBCW -xi pjtd jsd vntq fd ubo
edb vujp vt cz o b u v s f-jtv oefsf op snpv tq sfttv s
fupu blfif bw z evu z- tu vsezb oet uvo o joh- qvojt
ijoh bd ujpob hbjot uu ifqf sqfu s bups tpg uij tpv
us b hf-x ipbsf b jef ebo e bcf uufe bds pttu ifcps e
fs-c zuif ufssp sj tutu bufpg Qbljt u bo-j uj tb sp
hv ftubu fuib ui b tc f fo d p o evd u jo hjut Qspy z Xbs
b h b jotuJ o e j bCv u o pxju bqqfb stui butp nf cpezj
oQbl j tub oibt efd j efeup sbu d if uv qQblj tub otQ
sp yz Xbsb hb jotuJ oejb- up bhs p ttmz pggf otjwf e
f h sffUi fjoj u jbm tfotb uj popgt ip dl -e j th vtu-
b oesb h f ui buxbt gfmub mmbds pttu ifmfo hu ibo e c
s fb euipg Jo ejb -ib tof j uifse f dsfbt fe ops ef ft
db mbufe -jgu ifsfj tbo zd ibo h fb ubmm- ju jtjo ui
fej sfd ujpo pg f tdb mbujp o- u ijt l joep gpv u s b hf
bo enbt tjw fn p otusp vtdib mm fohfg spnu ifsp hvf
tu bu fp gQblj tub o-dbo opu cfb mmpx feuph pvo dib
m mfoh fe- ops d b ojuc f btt vbh fex j uipvu tpnft u v
s ezb oet pmje b d u jpo -bhbj otuu ifefw jmt ubu fpg
Qb l jtub oUi fdi jq tbs fopx ep xobo e bmui pv hi opu
ij o hibt cffos vm fepvu czHPJ hpwfs onfou pg Joej
b - jujt u jnf upui j o lpwfs tfs jpvtm zipx up qvojt
iuifq j h ifbef e - sphv ft ubu fpgQb l jt ubo Xijmf x
f qpo efs-x fof fe upv oefs tub oedmf bsmz - u ibu s f
h bsem fttp g i pxn bozd p nqmj d bu jpot -d pn qvmt jp
ot- boev odfsu bj o ujftu ifs fb sfjou iftju vbuj p
o-u ifs fj t op epvc ububm m-ui b ujg x fepop uijo hO
px upq vo jtiu i fq fsq f usb u pst p gu ij tp v usbh f-b
o eqbzu ifqs jdf p g qvojt inf ou- uif ou ifgv uvs f q
sjdf p gbt jnjmb sqvoj ujwfb duj pobh bjot uui fsp
h vft ubufp gQblj tub o -jt hp j o hu pc f njhi uz ijhi
fs-bo exf xpv me d pnf u pbnv dihsf buf s hsjfg gpst
v s f Q bl j tubo k v tuxp vme opumf uvq po jut m f bejo h
pgj ut cb scbs jb o hboh- bds pttui fMPDj o upui fE b
sVmI bscp gJo ejboL bti njs-b o expv meop uef tjtu
gspng sff mzj oevmh johjo uif xb o u p ot m bvh iufs p
guif L b gjsIj oev t -uij ttmb vhiuf sj tcv j mujo up
uif epdu sjof pgJ tmbn3 Uifs fgps f -uifr vftu jpo
j to puj g cvuxi fo -xfti pvm eqpv odfv qpoui fpsh b
oj {f stp guif t fcbs cbs jdJt m bnjdb ttb v mut bh b j
ot uJ oejb - tqf djgjd bmmzx ifox f tip vm e npvou pv
spq fs bujpo bhbjo tu uifu fs sp sj tutub ufpg Qb lj
tuboT i p vmexf hpgps sf ubmj bup szt usjl ftb ds pt
tui f m jofp gdpou spm MPDo pxpsd ppm pvs i f bmt gps
bm j uu mfxi jmf- boexb jugps f y uf sob me j q m pn buj
d qsft t vsfp oQblj t ubo-u pxpsl j u t fmgp vub oeg p
sd fQbl jt ub o-xij d ijt ui fuf ss psjtu tub u fpg ui
fij hif tupse fs-u p dp n fu pj utt fot f t-bo e sfb mj
{fu ifefb uiboe e f tus vdu j pouib ux j mmdp n fup j u
tnjm j u b sz boe djw j mjbon b dijo f-btb dpo tfrv fo
df pg J oe j b oNjm ju bszbd uj po-b oeef djefu pnf f u
uif efnbo etu ibux fib w fnb efpgj uUifN ve f spvtT
pme j fst p gKf ibe- xip buu bd lfeu ifJo e jboQb smj
b nfou -btx fm mb t uifj sejts f qvub c mf dp n n boe fs
t-u iptf tbohv jo bszx sfudi f tx ipq v uuph fui f s u
if js j ogf sobm nbdi jof p gK f ib e- boevo ef sxip t f
pse fst uif nvse fspv t nb sb vef stx fsftf ou-i beu
ip vhi u u isp v hiui jtpq f sbuj p ogpsn p ou it - cfgp
s f uif zb du vbm mztf o u ui fjs C bsc bsjbo Hb o h pob n
jttj pop gn vs efs-u pbtt bttj ob uf u i f Joej boQbs
mjbnf ou b s jb otpo2 4E fd3 1 1 2Ju jtgbj sm zqm bjo u
i bue ftqju f hs bwfqs pwp d b uj p otgsp nQblj tubo -
BCW jtf yibv tujoh bmm ejqm pnb ujdp quj potcf gps
fdp ot jef sjohi b stifs t uf qt Gvsui f s-xi buf wfs
ef d jt jpoif nbl ft-i fjth pjo hu pnblf jujo dpot v
mubu jp ox jui bmm dp od fsofe -pq q ptjuj poqbs ujf
tjo dmve fe4 Tp gbsJo ejbi btcf fo gjhiu johu fs s p
sjtn pobs fbd ujwf cbt jt-j ouij tbq qspbd iui fu f
s sps jtut buu b dlv tgjst u- b oexfs ftqpo eup ui pt
f b uubd l t boesf ubmj bufUi jts fbdu j wf b du jpo po
pv sq b su -jto pux psu izpgv t-j og bduj u jto pufwf
ox ps ui z pg bipp u-ju ofju i fs npujw buf tQblj tub
o upej tdb se j utKfi b ej Usb jojoh Dbn qtjot jefj u
tuf ss j up sz-op se pf tj utuj nv m b ufQb lj tubo uph
j wfvq jutu sbeju jpobm jo wf u sbu f cfmmj hfs bodz
bhb j otuJo ej bPoui f puif sibo e- junp u jwb uftQ b
lj t u bou p lffqd pnjoh cbd lb uvtb hbj obo ebhb j o-
jou ifnb oofs pgNp ibn n beHi pvs j bhb jot uQsj uiw
jS bkD ibvi bo-bo e lffqt j u ipq joh uib uxf xp vmeh
f u xfbs z pguij tsf bdu jwfus fod ixbsg bs ff wfo uv
b mm z-h jwfvq pop vssfb du jwfsf tjt u bodf upKfi b
ejB uub dlt-b oe tvs sf oef sL bt injs upQ bl jtu b op
obq m bu ufsU ij tjtb xjme boe m ve jdsp vttmf fqjo h
w jtjp o - jujt t u vggp ges fb nt -uib uj to pubu bmm d
bqbc mfp gcfj o hs f b mj {fe- cv uQbl jtub ojt opu qm
bd j oh boz dp o gjefo df jouif jnqpt tjcjm juzp gcs
jo hjo huij tbcpv u- boe xf offeu psf mjf wf Q bljt u
b opgu ij tT boub Dmbvt Gboub t z-csj oh Q bljt ubo e
pxou ph s p vo emfwf m-bo e mjhiu f o ui fifbw zm p be p
gj utgp pmjt iqj qfesf bnJ o fttfo df-x f of feup es
fttep xou ifq j h ifbef eqvo ltpg Qb lj t ubo -c z efm
jw f s johe bn bhjo hboeq v ojt ijoh qv odi f tpo uif n
- cznb ljoh ui fnsfh s f uuifz fwf sefd jefe uptu bs
uu ifjs ufs s psd bnq b jho bhb jotuJ oej bJ op se fs u
pep ui bu-x fgjst uof fe uph f us j epgpv sxps uim ft
ts fbdu jw fuf dio jr vfpgx bsgb sfbhb jot u uifKf i
b ejQv oltpg Q bl jtu b o -juj t bMpt fstU fd ioj rv f-
joj utqmb df- xfof feup ds bo lj obq s pbduj wfbq q s
pb d iIb wjo he fdjef euph p jogps ui fqsp b duj wfbq
qs p bdi - xf offeu ph p bdsp tt u if mjofp gdp ou sp mM
P Db oe ublfu ifgj hiuu pui ffof n zt u vs g -ijui jn s
fbmi bsep wfsui f sf-ef mj wfsfo pvh idptu mz qvoj
tin fou po Qb l jtubo -upgp sd fju upbcb oep o jut n j
tbe wfou vsfb hb jotu Joej bJsf qfbu Xfn vt uop u xb
ju gps uiff of n zupdp nf buvtj oup pvs pxomb o eboe
i vs u vt uifs f Cfdb vtfpv ssf bdu jwf bqq spb diibt
cf fo xpf gvmmz jo befr vbu fgp sbm p oh mpoh ujn f-j
u jtuj n fupdb mmj u rvj ut -Js fqf bugps u iftfd poe
uj nf- uibu xfo f feup u ispx ui jt hpp egp sop uij oh
s fbduj wfbq q spbd ijo u ifx btuf c bt lfuJ opuif sx
p set- xfoff eupnb l f pvst fmw ftpwf s -boe tup qlj
m mjohp vstfm wft-c ze j oup gp vsg ppm jtiu fdio j r
vft -pgdp oevd ujohx bsgb sf bhbjo tupvs c b scb sj
d fofnj ft 5Bsf uifsf bozfy u f sjp sgpsd ftboe g b d
ups t-u ibubs fqsft fo ujou i fdv ssf out juvbu jpo
- b oexi j di x fof fe upx budi p vug psZ ft-u ifsf dfs
u bjomz bs f-xfo f feopu po mzupc fb xbsfp gu i fn-c
v u offe updpo gspou ui fnif b epoU if us vnqd bseui
b u xfoff eup dpogs p outnb sumz jtui fVTB- xij dij
tu ifpo mzTvq fsQpx f s joui fxpsm e upeb z -uif VT b
mtp sf hbset ju tfmgb mu ip vhiz pvxj mmofw fshfu j
uu pbe njub tu ifhvb sejbo boe qpm jdfn bopg uifx p
sm e -uif VTBpv usb oltbm mp ui fsqpx f st-bo e ip m e
tbmm ljo etpg x joojo hb ewbou bhft T jod f xfep op u
xbo ubo zt v sq sj tf tp o pv sib oe t-ju jtofd ftt bsz
g ps v tuph b vhfu ifjo ufou jp ot p guif VT B- boe e f u
f snjof xifs f uifVT Btubo e tpo uijtj ttvf B u uifq
s ftfou ujnf- VTBjt tq fblj ohui sp vhib gp s lfeu p
o hv f-ub m ljo hgs pnu xpt j eftp g jutnp vui Xbt ijo
hu p oj to f ju ifs foe pstj oho p spqq ptjoh pvst usj
l ft-cv ujtbe wjtjo h dbv uj po X btij ohu pojt tbzj
oh uibu j u xjmm ibw fopqs pcmfn xjui OfxE fmij b du
jo hpoui fs ftvmu tp gj utj owft u jh bujp oX ibufy b
dum ze p ftui jtnf boE p f tu ijtnf boboj oejsf d uxj
ol -u i b u bm jnjuf eJ oe jbonj mj ubs zb duj p o xpv me
c fplbz xjui V TB- psep f tu ijtn fbo tpnfu ijoh fmt
fJ guij tj tbxjo l -uif ox i z j tu if VT Bb mtpt jn vmu
bo fpv tmzu fmmj ohvtu p cfdb v u jp vt-t vggjd fj uu
p tbz u ibux fbsfh fuuj ohnjy fet jho bmtgs pnui fV
TBC vuui fVT Bjtop uui f pom zfo u ju zuib u jtdpo wf
zjo hup vtui fd b mmtgp ssf tus bjo u -xfbs f bmt phf
uujoh t jnj mbsdb vujp otgs pnpu i fsr vbsuf st -qb
s uj dvmb sm zgspn Fv s pqfI pxepx fubd lmfu iftfd b
vuj podb mmt- boeg jhv sfpvu ipxnv diq s fn jvnxf t
ip v me sf bmm zqv upou i fn Tipvm ex fm j tu f ou puift
fdb mmtps p vusjh i ujho p sfu ifnUi fus jdl znbu uf
sif sfjtu ifDb vujpo Db m m gsp nui fV T B- xi jd icsj
o htv tepx o upgj hvs johpv uu i f jo ufo ujpot p gui f
VT BUi jtjto p ubt fbt zbtju nbz tpv o eboeb uu ijt q
p jouj o u j nf- ui fsfb sf p omz fevdb ufe tq fdvmb uj
po tbc pvuVT Bjou f oujp otboe e ftjs ft6 Uijt mftt
ui b odmf bstub oep gu ifV TB ui f p o mzTvq fsQ pxfsj
ouifx p sme-c ftjef tcfjo hw fs zjss jubuj oh-j tb
mt psfh sfu ubcm f-cf db vttfu if VTB uipv hiq v cm j
dbm mz jtmp vemz w pjdjo h jut bouj ufssp sjtuq pt j
ujpo -zfuj topu qvuu jo h up p nvd iq s ft tv sfpo Tjh
o p sNvt ibs b gg- up hfui jnbxb zgs p nij tufss p sd b
n q b jhob h bjo tuJ o ejb-u ps f tu sbj oijt Kfib ej Pv
ug jut-u ibub sfp q fsb ujohg spni jtd pvou szUij t
ejdi pupn zc fux ffou i fqvc mjdbo eq sjwbu fqp tju
j popg uif VTB- jtgvs uif se fqmps bcmfx ifoju jt s
fbmj {fe- ui buNvt ib sbggx btuif dijfg bsdij ufd
u pg Lbshj m Be wf o u v sf- ifb mt pibtc ffobt vqqp su
fs pgUb mjc bo -btxf m mbtpg BmRbf ebV T Bjtsf gvtj
o hu p fyb njo fuif ept tj fsp o Nv tib s bgg - jth jw jo
hijnb d mfbod iju-b ct pmwj o hij n pgbm mi jtqbt un
jte pjo htbo enj t ef fe t-fwf odbm m j oh ij nbN pefs
b u fXibu bKplf -bo ejt usfb ujoh ijnb t jg-if jtN s
D mfbo boeM jmz Xij ufNvt i bsb ggj topui jo hpgu if
tps u-ifj tfyus fnfmz dm fwf s b oej tbgv mmgm f e hf
ep qqpsu vo jtu- i ft i bqfti j tbnc jujpo tbdd psej
o hm zI fjt uift of b ljftu hv zj onpe fso ij tu p szJx
p vm eouus vtui jn bozgv sui fsu ibo Jdb ouisp x bc v
mm Xf ibw ft ffo ui f gjstu fejuj popgi jt pqqp suvo
jt ujd b o u jdt- uijth vz jtbs phv fIjt xj gfib tbmt
pcf f otfbs dij o hgpsb sf tj efod fjo u ifd juzp gO f
x Zpsl- btbob eej uj pobm fn fshfo d znfbt v sf-gp s
uif tbgfu zboet f dvsj uzpgi j tg bnjmz - jodbt fui
jo ht h fu up pspvh igpsi jnjoi jt dpv ousz pgQbl jt
ub oN vti bsbgg jto pubw fszh pp e c fugps uif VTB-c
vuV TB tdi pjdf p gN vtizt ipvm eoput u sj lfv txj ui
x poe fs fjui f sUi fVTB ibt ofw fscf fobd dvtfe pg c
fu uj o h p o ui fsjh iui pstf- jo g b du uifV TBib t b m p
ohib cjubo eijt up sz pgc fuuj ohpo uifx spoh ip st
fMf uo pcpe zcfg ppm feJuj tbop qfot f dsfu- uib uj
gu ifVT sfbm m zxbo ut btju tbztj uepft u pb wpj ep q
f oip tujm ju j ftc fux ffou ifUfs sp sjtu Tu bu f pgQ
b ljt u boUTQ bo eJo ej b-ui fojud bo boej utipv me -
cfqv uujo htf sjp v tq s f t t vsfpo Qfsw f{Nv t ibs sb
gup efmj wf supJ o ej b - uifu pqmf b efsti j pq p guif
uxpuf ss p s jt ups hboj{ bu jp otjef oujgj feczJ oe
jbUif VTB off etup hpc fz po ehjwj oh btzn cp mjdb o
uju fss psj t ntvq qp s uupJo ejb Tpgbs -fbd iboe fw
fs z efnb oeuib uuifV T ibtn be f pgNv ti bsbg gNvt i
z-Nv tizi btpc fej fou mzpc mjh fe-b o ei fjto pumj
lfmzu pcfbo zui joh puif su ib op cm jh joh- of yuuj
n fbspv oef j uif sJgui f VTBdb o opu qvuui j tl joe p
gq sf ttvs fpo Nv tiz-u ifoj un bl f ttfot fgpsJ oe j
b- u pdmfb smz dpow fzu ifn fttb hf upu ifV TB-u ibu
o puijo htip su p gui j tdp n qmjbo df bd uj poc z Qbl j
tu box pvm eqs fwfo uxbs -boeu ibuju xp vmecf j nq p
ttj cm fgpsH PJ upbwp jenj mj ub szbdu j po7 Uifij t
u p sz p gdp nq mjbod fbd ujpo tcz Nvt izjtt v ct ubou
jb mBt bofyb nq mf -ui fVT Bibtw js uvbmm z t fdv sfe
u if c btfb uKbd pcb cbe-b tboB nfs jdb oCbt f-b oej
u jtop ubti psuu f sn cb tff ju ifsJu jthp joh upfoe
vqbtb mpo h u fsnc bt f- fydfq u gp sb gfx mjbj tpop g
gj dfs t-u ifVT Bi btl jd lfepv ubmm pu ifsQ blj t ub
ojtgs p nuijt cbtfU ifVTB jtb m t pb uu ij t ujn f - cv
jm ejoh bj sdpoe ju jpof ecb ss b dl tg p suif VTusp p
qt -bg uf sbmm juh fut qmfou zi p u jo tvnn f s jou if d
j uz pgKbd pcbc be-Kb dp cbcbe jt tbj e upcf u i fi pu
u ftu djuzj oQb ljt uboJ uj tc fdbv t fp g ui ftflj oe
tp gtjh ojgjd boub oetv ctub ou j b mdpo df ttjp ot-
ui b uui f VT qpm jd znbl fstbs f gjoej oh ju ej g gjd v
muup kfuuj tpo uifj sgbw p s jufh f ofs bmHfo f sbm N
vtiz Nvti ztdm fw fsoft tmjf tj oi jttvd df t tgvmm
zqmbz johui f epvcm fh bnfp gt fdv sj oh ijtmf hj uj
nb dzgs pnVTB -xijm fbu uift bn fuj nf-dp ou j ov jo
hu ptup lf ui fKfib e jGj sft bhbjo t uJ o ejb Uij tlj
oep gepv cmfh bnfjt ejg gjdvm uu pqmb z-cvu Nvti z
tffn t upc f bcm fupqm b zjuqs fuuz xfmm- bum fbtu v
q upuij t ujn f8Ui fs fgps f-dp nj ohcbd lupe jqmpn
bdz btbtu bsu jo h qpjou pgpv sbduj po- xfo ffeu ps
f bmj{ fuib uuif Xft u johfo fsbm- boe uifVT Bjoqb
sujdv mb s-j oe vmh fj oefn pdsb dzs if u psj dCvuu i
jtjt opuui fjsq vsqpt f bu bmm uifj sqvsq ptf jtt p
nfui j oh fm tfUpc fmj f w fuij tbtu if qvsq p tf-jt u
p ubmmz b tjo jof Gv su i f s-up cf m j fwfu ibu ui fVT B
xpv medpn fuppv sb je- c f dbvt fpgui fbuub dlp oui
ft zncpm pg efn pd sbd z -jtx pstfu ib ogppm jtiK vt
u c fdb vtfQ sftj ef ouCv t i tu b uf eijt sftpm wfupe
ftusp zu fs spsj tut bo euif jstqp o t p s tfw fszx if
sf - ep ftop unf bouif VTBjo u foet upub lfb dujpo j
o QPL psj oQblj tuboV TBbdu jpo jtmp dbmj {feu pBg
hi b ojt uboK vt ufy bn jofu ifbew j dfui buu i fVTB i
btc ffoqb sdf m mjoh pvuup vt -u ifz ib wfcff oufm m
jo h vtu pti bsfu i fs ftv mutpg pvsj owftu jhbu jp o
xju iQb lj tu boE j eu if VTBti b sfj utf w jefo dfpoX
UD bu ubdl x ju i f j uif sBmR vb febps xj uiu if U bmjc
b otX i buuij t u fmm tv tjttj nqmz u ijt uib ujo t ufb
ep ggb mmjoh gps ui fVTsi fups j d-xft ip v me vt f VT
sif u p sjd uppv s pxobe w boubh fX f t ipv meqs pdffe
upcsf blv qQ b ljtu boV t johQs f tje fouCv tit ufs n
j opm p hz-xf tipvm eop utbz xfbsf ljm mj ohu ifQ b l
jt- xf tipvm etb zx fbsf c sj ohjo h uif Qbl jtu pkvt
u jdf 9Sfhb sejoh ui fXftu fso Nfej bUipv hifw f sz
cpe z jouif Xf tufs oNfej b jto puu if tbnf- nptup g
uifnt q fdjb mj {fjoc fjo hbq p mph jtutg psQbl jtu
bo tnj teff et- bm muifx bzgs pn 2:58 p oxbs et- epx
o upui fqs ftf ouuj nfU i fz bsfo p uu fss jcmz dpod f
sofe xj uiui fwf sb dju zpg uift juv bujpo -uif jsf
e ju psjb mtb s f tv cu m fd pwf sv qt gp sQbl jtu bo tt j
ot-b o eu ifz mf duv sfJ oejb up xfmdp n fQ b ljt u bo-
u pmfsb ufjut ufssp sj tn-bo ef ohbh fjoe jb m ph vf
xj ui juUi fjsd p o dmv tj pou ib uN vti zibto pdp ous
pm pwf suifu fss psjt up vug j u tuib ubsf pq fsbu jo
hb hb j o tuJ oej b-jt qvsfi phxb tiJuj tbq juz uibu
uifX ftuf soN fej bd p oujo vftu pnb jou bj ouijt bu
uj u ve f jot qj ufpgu ifgbd uu i bu Jo e jbpgg f sfe g v
m mdp pqfs bujpo upui f VTB-j ojutb ouj u fs s psjt u
dbn qbjh o-bg uf sui f22T fq3 112uf ss psjtu buu bd
lNv ti zbm tp tubcc f evt b uMb i p sf bo eui fX ftufs o
N f ejbp vhi uup lo px uibuX i bub c pvuu i fBnfs jdb o
Ej qmpnb u tUifB n f sjdb oE jqm p nb ute p opuvt fuif
u fsn Dsptt cps efs Ufssp sjtng psufs spsj t nui b u
jt cfjoh qfsq fus bufe czQbl jtubo bhbjo tuJ o e jb
Opupo mzu ibu - uifz e ftjs fuibu Jo ej btip xbijh i
fsu pmfsb odfg ps xib ufw fsQbl jt ub ojtv qup jf d s
pt tcp sefs ufs sp sjt nUif tfe jqmp nb u t b mtp ufm m
Of xEfm iju ibuj utdp odfs otxpv me c f bees ftt fej
oQ ibtf JJpg xb sbhbj otuu fs sps j tnBgh ib ojt ub o
j t Qi b tfJ pg xbsb hbjot uufss ps jtn Xbt ijo hu pos
f gv tftup uvsoj utfzf tupxb s e tui fds pttcp sef s
uf ssp sj tnu ibu jtcfj ohdp oevdu febh bjot u Joej
b:Cf dbvtf p guij ts fmbuj wf joejg g fs fodf p guif
X ftu upx bse tufss p sjtnb hbjot uJoej b-j ucfip w
ft Jo ejbu p lf fqjut pxoqs fttvs fv q- boeu ifu is f
b upgxb s x pvme gp dvt u iffzf tpgu i f Xftu pouif uf
ssp sj tutu ibubs fpqf sbu j oh g spn Qbljt ubo Fw fo
j otqju fpgui f fwpmw johtf sj pvt tjuv bujpo -uif
X ft utuj mm jotjt u tu ibub o zbt tjtub odfu i fzp gg
fs Joejb -tip vmeo pu voe fs njo fNvti zUi fzibw fd
p od mvefe uibuj ouif jsxbs bhb j ot uB m Rvbf e bb oe
Ub mjcb ot -j u jtft tfou jbm u ib uNvt izdp ou jovfj
o qpxfs Ui vt Nvtiz jtopu joui f Eph Ip vtf-x ifsfi
ftipv mecf Xfi bwfif bs ebs hvn fou t pgu ijtu zqf c
fgp sf - uib uui f sfjt opb mufs o b ujwfu pNv tizCv u
jujt bm tpus vfui buxfe popup xf b ozg bwpst upNv t
i z-xfi bwfup n bl fpvsp xoef djtjp ot Xjuiu ij tfo
ep s tfnf ou g sp n uifVT boeg s pnui f Xf tu-N vt izdp
ou jov ft ijtmp x d p t uxf b qpop gbe w fouvs jtn bo e u
f s s psjtn bh bjo tuvtU ifui sfb up gboj n njofo uJo
e p Qblx b s- nbzkv tu c f u if mfwf s- uibu db onpu j wb
uf X bti joh upo -upbq qm zjut n vtd mf poJtm bnb cbe
-b oedvs fj upg jut Kfibe jUfs spsj tnEjt p sefs2 1
Up tfwfs m zq vo j ti Qb ljtub o btxfm mbtu pepj ut nb
su mzupb wpj ebo zqs pcmfn xjui uifV T B-xf offe up
g pmmp xbhs bevbu f etufq qj ohvqu i ftfsj fts p vuj
o f-bm po h bmbe ef sp g qv oj t infou U i j tmbe efssp v
u jof dpot jt utp gdpou sp mm fe op onj mjub szbdu jp
ot -jo uifgp snpg hsbe v bufe tufqt vqui fqv ojti n
f ou mb eefs Jujto f dfttb szupq sf qb sfkvt ujg jdb
uj pogp spv sn jm jubsz bdujp o -t puib ujub qqf bst
up f w fszcp ezjo u i fxp s me - uibu x ffy i bvt uf ebmm
q fbd fgvmn f uipe tuphf uQblj tu bo updb m mpgg ju t
uf ss ps jtube wf ouvsj tnbh bjotu v t-cv uQ blj t u b
o cv mmifb efem zjhop sfebm mpvsb uufn qu tuph fuj
uu pdbmm pgg j u tnf ob dfpgu fssps jtn- xfxf sf mfg
ux juib ctpm vufmz opp uifsb mufs o b u jwf fydfq u u
phpj o g psn jmjub szb dujp o btbs f nf ezXf tub su u i
j tqsf qb sbu jpoxj ui e jqmp nbdz -uibu jt xfej qmp
nb uj dbmm zus z upjtp mbuf Qbljt ubojo uf sob ujpo
bm m z- jou if VTB -joF v spqf- Mbuj oB n fsjdb -Btjb
- Bgs jdb- boefm tfx ifsf X fti pvm edj ufnps b mju z
b oeuif ofdft tjuz p gb oujuf ss p sjt n-bo edpoe vd
ujo hqv o jti j ohbdu jpob h bjot uuif uf s sps jt ut -
xi fsf wfs u ifzn j hiuc fBguf shp jo hui spv h iuij t
ejqm pnbu jdfy fsdj tf -xf xp vmeib wfqsf qbsf e b x
bufs ujhi u d bt fb hbjot u Qblj tubo -boef tubcm jt
ifekv t ujgjd buj pogp spvs n jm j ubszb duj po-ui f
x psmex pvmev o e fs tub oeui bu x f i bw fbs j hiuup qs
p u fdu pvs tfm wftbh bjotu ufssp sjtn - bo eui bu n j
mjub s zbd u j poxbt kvt ujgj feb o eofd ft t b sz22 Xi
jm fxf bsfbu ju - j g g fbtjc mf-x fpvh iu upt jn vmu b
ofp v tmz dpo evdu t pnfdp wfsu pqfsb ujpot bmtp bh
bjo tuuif t ubufp gQb l jtu bo-jo uiftu bu ftp gTj o
ei -Cbmp di jt ubo-b oej oO XGQQs pwjod fxjui uif b
ttjt ubod fp gof xBg hib ohp wf sonf oujoB g hibo j t
ubo -u szupf odpvs bhf wj pmf odfc f uxf f oui fTv oo
jtboe uifTi jbths pv qtpgN ptmf nt jo Qblj tubo O p
pq u jpod b o cf s vm fepv uop st ipvm ejucf svm fepv u
P vs bjnp vhiu u pcfo pui joh mf ttuib ouif upub mef
t u svduj p oboeg s bhnf ou bujp o pg Qbl jt ub o Uifs f
g psf-e vsjoh pvs dpwfs upq fs bu jpot -Fdpo pnjdb
oe N jmju bs z ubs hf utj oQ bljt ub otip vme cfbuu if
upq pgp vsqs jps juz B mui pv hiuif Fvsp qf boVo jpo
ib tb mtpm fou jutw pjdf u pQ sftje fouCv ti td bmmp
o Nv tizup b dubh bjot uufs sps jtupv ugjut u ibub s
f c bt f ejoQ b ljtu bo- xfti p vm eopul ffq pvsip qft
uppij h i-ui b uu if dsj tjtd bvtfe cz u i fKf ibejB u
ub d lpou ifJ oej boQb s mjbnf ou-xp vmecf sftp mwf
ec zej q mp nbujd jo uf sw fouj poUif cbt jdu svui j t
tjn qmzu ijt Q b lj tu bojti bufvt -b oexf ibu fui fn
jos fw f st f-t pxf cpui bsf bu b tuboe tujmm -uifs f
jt op offe gpsbo zgv suif s e jtdv t tj po- kv tujgj d
buj pop s np s b mjuz- jo t ufb exfd bo cfqsb hn b ujd-
q s bdu j d bm - boehp g psju 23E p Jqspq pt fbd podjm j
bups zqpmj dzbhb jo tuQbl jtub o-upq mfb tf uif d s
pxe joui fxpsm eBotx f sM jl fIfm m JepJ q spqpt fo p
dpod jmjbu p sz bqqsp bdig psvtf bhbj otuu if Q b lj
t u bojtX i zCf d bv tfd podjm jbup szqp mjdjf tibwf
cff ous j f exj u i uifTv mmb tjoui fqb tu-gp sbu mfb
tu 2311 zf b st -uifz ibwfv uufs mzg bj mfeu pe fmjw
f sui fq spevd u U ifdp ogmjd uuibu jtcfu xff ovt bo
eu i fn j topub cpvu ufss jupsz -ju jt bc pvut pnfui
j o h nvdin ps fc bt jd-nv dinp sfgvo ebnf ou bm- ui b
uhp ft u p u i fs p pu pgpv sEibs nbb oeup u ifjsH ptq f
mPgI bu f-u ifj s Lbgjs Ib usfe -boe uif jsC bs c b sj
t nQbl jt ubojt opuk vtubo f j hic p s- Qblj tub ojtb
q sp cmfng psvtQ bljt ubobt ju f yj t ut u pebz off et
u pcf f mjnj obufe - b oeju t xbsn bljoh db qbdju zup
ubm mzef tusp zfe Ui fsfg psf- jo tuf b epgbm mpxjo
hQ blj tubo upib wf ju tK fi b ej dNfss zX bz- xft ip v
me bot xfsj utuz sboo z- usfb di fs z-bo ecb scbsj t
n-c zds vtij o hjux j uiu ifv tf pg gpsd fXfof feupe
p bdpn qmfu f kp c-boe mfb wfop u ij ohu peftu j ozUi
f uj e fp g Jou fsobu j pob mP qjo j poj topxu vso johj
op vsg bwps -xf of feupc f bttfs uj wfj opvs wjf xqp
jout -xi foejq mpn buj dbmm ze fbmjo h xjuiQ b lj t u
bojU fs spsj tnUif sfg ps f -ui fsfjt op offe gps v t
u pepq vtt zgppu j ohXf offe upcfb ttfs ujw fbo ee f
nb oeui b ufjui fsQbl jtub otup qtu fssps jtn joup
u bm- psgbd fn j mj u bszb dujpo boe uife ftus vd ujp
op gQ bl jt uboH jwfQ bljt ub o opp uifs pqujp o-boe
e f mjwfs buiv o efs joh njmju bs z cmpx Jgg fb tjcm f
-i bwfb dp ou johfo dzqm bo x ju iuif T ubu f PgJts bf
mup u blfd bsfpg Qb l jtu bo jOv dm fbsB ttfut -u if o
sbjo e ftu sv dujp opo u ifnk pj o umzxj uiJt s bfm24
Fwf oui pvhiI j oev ti bwfcf f o loj g fecz uift xpse
p g Jt m bn-b hb j oboeb hb jo-gp s2311 zfbst -uifs f
bsft u jmmt p nfFm jufQt fvep Tf dvmbs tb npo htu vt
-x iptfe fgf b ujtu boe tjd lfo j oht u buf nfo utej t
hvtu vt U ifzbs ftbz jo huib u xft ipv meop uhpu px b
sxj uiQ b ljtu bovo efs bozdj sdv ntub odft U ift fQ
tfv ept epo u lo pxbej e em zbcp v ufjui fs Jtmb nps Q
blj t uboUi fztf fnup ibwfo pv o e fst ubo ejohp gop
sbo zsfhb seg psui ftbg fuz- tvswj wbm -b o e xf mgb
s fp guif Nbkps j uzIjo evQpq v m bujpo bsp vo euifn
Uif zepop uhs btq u ibu Np tmf ntb oeQbl j tub ojtb s
f uszj o hup csfb luif Ijo evTp d jf u z bqb su boe u pu
b mmze f tusp z juUi fzbsf jodbq bc mfp gf tujn bu jo
hui fbnpv ou pg Ijoe vdb sob hf boenj tfszu ibu xjm
m g pmmp x jgx fe pouub lfboz njm j ubszb dujp opsx b
ju up pmp ohupu b l fbdu jpob hbj ot uQ bljt ub oUi fz
bsf tj ohj ohuif tpo hpgui fCmbd l Ti ff qTr vbesp o
X fbs fqpps mj uum f mbnc t-x ipibw fmp tu uifj sx b z
Ui fcftu u ijo hui buxfd boepb c pv uuif n-jto p uup
dp ogfsi p opsp sej ho juz vqp ouif ncz mjt ufojo hu
pui f js gppmj tiub m l-cv uu pup ub mmz jh op sf ui f p
vuqv up guifj s gf fcmf boej e jpu jd nj oet Btbed mp
ve pgn jtfs zb oecbs c bsjt nibt cff odb tup ou iftl
j ftpgp vs Cibsb u Wb sti b- fwf stjod fui fc b scbsj
bot pg Jt mb nmb oefe pop vsT b dsf e Tpjm- t pnf23 11
z fb stbh p-b oeuif zef tdfo ef e po uifq fbd fmp wj o
h Ijoe vt xjui voqb s bmmf m f eg vszb oec bs cb sjt n X
f xp v mec fbd u johbt pvs pxo fofnz j g x fgp shf uuij
t ibst imft t pop g ijt upszU if tnbsu f tuu ij ohjtu
ppc mjuf s b ufbt nv d ipgu ifQb ljnj m ju bsz n bdij o
f btxfd boXi buxfo ff eupe pjtnp w fj o uppv sc bu u m
ftub ujp ot-b o ehfu po u ift ippuj ohf oe- sbu if su
ibo fo evq cfjo h t ip ubu25 JgIj o evt f wfsu v sof e p
ou if ivo u fstJt mbnDi s jtu jbo j uzboe tu bs uf egm
vtijo hpvu uifNp tm fntb oeD is j tuj bo t- uif ouib
uxjmm c fu i fc fhjoo j oh pgui ffo epg Jtm bnD isjt u
j boj uzjo J oe j bUib u xjmmb mtpcf u ifnpt u btup o j
tij ohdib q uf sjoui fi j tup szpg Jo ejbJu x jmmbm t
pcfb k vtus f usjcv ujp oup u if if mmb oei bwpdp g23
1 1zf bs t ui b uuifN pt m fni btc ffoxb h j oh bhbjo t u
uif Ijo e vJ bnuij oljo hpg bNj mjubo uIjoe v j tn-j
ujtu if uz qfp g Ijo ev jtnui bujtb snf exju i xju tb
o e xfbqp ot- uib ujtcs jtumj ohxj uibmm ljo e tpg b
sn bnfo utbo en j ttjmf t-b oejt sfbe zu pt us jlfxj
ui mjhi ufo johtq f feJg uijt ljoep g I joev jtn fwf
sd p nf tjoup c fj oh- uif o Jtm bnDis jt u j boj uzx jm
m opumj wfbo p uifse b zup tub lf pvu np sfI j oevUf s
sju psz- boetf flg sft iivou joh h s pvo e tjotj efu
ifcp ezp gIjo e vjtn2 6Fwfo uipvh ibuu ij tuj n f -x
fbsf v tj oh u ifbq qsp bd ipghs bevb m j tn -czv tjoh
btfs j ftpg h sbev buf etuf qt- sjejo hvqu ifmbe ef
spgqv oj tinf ou-xf tipv meopu gpsh fuxi bupv s vm
ujn bufb jnj tX fb s fx jui ipmej ohuif bqqmj dbuj p
opg njmj ubs zg ps df gp suifu jnfc fjoh- cvuo pu gp
sfw f s-x fbs f hjwj ohejq mp nbd zb d i bod f up x psl-
u pnblf Qbl jtu bos fb mj{f uibu ju i bt b op cmjh bu j
pou px pslb hbj otuu ifu fssps j tu t-bo euibu g b jm
vs f upe pt p xp vmei b wfwf sztf s jpv tdp otfrv fodf
t gps juC vujg uif hsb ev bufe t ufq tepop uqspe vdf
uif e ftjsf esf tv mut-u ifo uifn jm jubsz p q ujp ot
ip vme cfjo t fsu fej ou ifdib nc fsr vj dlmz Xi j mfx
fb s fxbju johg psu i fe j qpnb dzup xpsl - xft ipv me
lf f qpv sovd mfbsx fbqpo t - nj ttj mf tboe hvot- bj
s dsfb guboe tijqt po uifs fbe zXfti pvmeb mtpsp v
oevq b mmuif bou j obuj po bmt j o Joej b -boe qvub mm
p gui fnjok bjmt2 7Xib ubcp vuu i fov dmfbs c mbdl n
bj m gs pnQ bljtu b oJtju sfbm b oes fmjb cmfJ oejb o
F yqf sutb sfpgu i f p qjo j poui buxj u ijou ifo vdmf
bsep d usjof tpgQb ljt ubog jst u tusj lfbo epg Jo e
j btfd poe tusjl f-b tu sbu fhjd tqbdf fyjtu t g psb
m jnju fe dpogm jd u-tvd ibt pguif u zqf x fx juoft t
fej oL b shj m Qbl jtub ojtd po tdjpv tpgu if gbdu ui
bub oz g j s t uv tfpg o vdmf bsx fbqp o tczQb ljtu b o-
xpv memf be upb ef wbtub uj oh dpv oufst usjl fcz Jo
e jb-bo euib ux pv mewfs zo fb smz cfu iffoe pgQbl j
tub oUif dpo tf rvfo dft bsf kvtuu pp t fwf sf gpsQ b
lj tub o U ifsf g psf -Qbl jt ubo xpvme cf i ftjub ouu
pv tfui fovdm fbsx fbq pot gjs tu Juj tu ijt iftj ub
u jpo uibub m mp xttqb dfgps bmjn juf enjmj u bszd p
ogm j du2 8Ju jt opu uif VTb mpo fxi ptfqv cm jdq sp o
pvo df n foute popu n fbt vsf vqupu i fj sqsjw buf bd
uj potU ifQbl j tbm tp cfmj f wfui bu Joej bxjm mbmx
bzt gjhi uuif Nps bmEi bsnjd Gj hiu Uibuj txizu i f
zbm xbzts ftp s uupE j suzGj h iubh bj otu vtX juiu i
fe jt btu f sboe ti b nfui bupv snf u ip epggj h iujo h
i btc spv hiuvt -juj tuj nfx fe pui fEj suzG j hiuu p
pb oeh fupvs nf ttbhf b dsptt Fw fs zui joh jtgbj s j
o m pwfb oex bs Xib udbox f ep jou ifxb zp gEj suzG jh
iub hbjo tu uifQb ljt Qm fo uzBmm j uu blftj tdpv s b
hfX fdbo sfq fb muif Jo evtX bu fs Usfbu zXf ti pvme
d vu pg guifx bu fstv q qmz upQbl j Q bo kbc cf gpsf ui
fq mbou j o htf b tpo-b o egmp pe u ifcf mmzp gQbl j t u
bobm m bdspt tQb ljQ bo kbc-k vtucf gpsfu ifib s wf
tutfb tpoU ifDis j tujbo tmpv e mzup v uMpw fui fzO
f jhic ps boeui fou ifzhp upui fkpc pg Tdsfx johui
fOfj h icps Dp ot frv fo umz-x fti pvme bmtp b jnbu o
puij ohti psupg dpn qmfuf mz tdsfx joh p v sof jhic
psboe upubm mzef tu spzjo hjutx bs nbl j oh d bq bdj
uz P vsOfj hicps ibqqf otu pcf Qbl jt ubo-x ftip vm
ed vuju ep xoup tj{ fb oesfe vdfj uupbc bs fnj ojnv
n tlf mfupo Ep ouxps sz jgQ bl j djwj mjbo tt v ggf s j
o uifq sp dfttU ib u jtdp mmbuf sbm eb nbhf- j ut ip v
mec f hbv hfeb t op uij o hnpsf uib odp m mbu fs bm- b o
et ipv mec f f yqfdu feXfd b ou cfqf bdf ojl tboex jo
ui fx bsb hbjot uuifQ blj t Dpo usp mm jo hxbu fstvq
qm zxp vm etq sfbe qbo jd-qp wfs uz-b o en jtf s zbm m
bdspt tQ blj Qbo kbcJ uxjmm jn q ptf b i fb wz qsjd f p
oQbl jUf ss psj tnbhb jo t u Joe jbBdp v ous zmjlf Q b
ljtu bou i bu ibt tv sq mvt npof zuptq sfbeu fs spsj
t n-ep ftopu o ffebo zdi bsjuz g spn vtJue pfto pue
f tf swf bozdp otjef sbuj po gspnv t gp su ife bnb hf
uib ud p ous pmmj ohxb ufs tvqq m zx pvmee pupui ffd
po pnzp gQ bljtu boTd sbqq johui fJ oevtX buf s U sf
b uzjt uifc f tuO poMfu ibmx b z upcvj me qsftt v s fp
o Qbl jt ubo- csjoh juupj utlo fft- boec fhjoj ute
ft usvdu j po bo ec sfblv qXfn vtu u jhi ufoui f t dsf
xt poQ bl jtub o-boe xj odi v qq sftt v sfpo Nvti z- v
o u jm iffju ifscp xtep xo psh jwftv qps hfu teft us
p zf e ps bmmp gui ft f Nzh f ofsbu jpotv ggf sfebu ui
f ib oet pg Tv mmb tg sp n uifn pn fo upgQb s ujuj popo
J e poux bo upvsI j o evDi jme sf oup tvgg fsuif tbnf
nj tgp su vof- czbm mpx joh uifQ bl j Tv mmb tup f yqp
suui fj scb scbs jtn joup Joe jbJ xb oupvs c s bwf Ij
oev Cpzt up upubm mze f tusp zu ifT vmmbt boesf o ef
su if nbt jotj ho jgjd bou- xfbl -bo eib snmf tt mbn
ct- xjui ui fv t fpgg psdfU ifu jnf upub mljtp wfsM
fuvt fmj njobu f u if m j bst -dif but- cbsc bs jboqj
htb oetd vnt pgQbl jtu bo29U ifjt tv fs j h iuo px jt
o pu Lbti njs -ju jtbuu b dl poui fJoe j boQb s mjbnf
ou -bo eQ blj tu bojt ejsf dumz sf tq p otj cmfgp sj u
Epo u mf uQbl j t u bo f tdbq f-Qbl jtu bo n vtu cf c spv
h iuu pkv t uj d fv tjohC vtit ufsn jo pmph zUipt fx i
pbsf sb jt johu if o vdmf bsc phf zboeo vdmf b sxbs-
u if zb sfcf johej t jo h fovpv tXju iuifj su xpgbd f
es ifu psjd -u ifzb sfbct pm wjoh Qb ljt u bopg sftq
potj cjmju zgp sui fbu u b dlp o ui fQb smjbn fo u-f w
foui pvhi u i ffwje fodf jtdsz tubm dmfbs Xfti p v m
eo puuv ofp v sf bsu p uifj sepv cmfub mlUif d pssfd
u bq q s pbd ijt u ps bjoe f b u i b oeeft usvdu jpopo Qb
l jt u boboe bd dpn qmj tiju t ej tn fncf snf ouJog bd
u- iju ui fsftj efod fpgN vti z xjui qsfd j t jpops e
obod f -jou ifBnf s jdb oTuzm fUs fbu Nvt izxju iui
ftbn fsftq fduui b uBnfs jdbo t pg gf supP tbnbC jo
M be fo X f tip vmeop usft uv o ujmpv spckf d ujwft cf
dp nfb ddpn qmj tif egb du t Voujm uifox ft ipvme lf
f qdpp ljohv qb njmju bsz tups n bhb jot u ui fcbsc b
sjd Jt mb nj dd pnnbo efs t pg Qbl jtu boD podv s sfou
m z-x ftipv melf fqsf qfb ujo hbhbj oj oB nfsjd boT
u z mfuib u xfib wfbm x b z t xbouf eqfb d fcv uQbl jtu
boj tgp jt ujohx bs povt Lffqi juuj ohQ blj tubob o
elff qcmbn joh j ug ps t ubsuj ohu if xbs2: Uptvn vq
-s fh bsem ftt p g u ifbuu f o ujpo psui fj o b uu fouj p
oui buu ifXf t uibtt ip xoup xbse tuif cbsc bsj d uf
s sp sj tnuib u ibtcf foq fsqf u sbuf eczQ bljtu bob
hb j o t u Joejb - ui fsfjt o p e foz jo huifg bdu ui buo
bu vsf i b tq s p e vdfe bvo jrv fp qqpsu voj uzgps Joe
jb-b mmuib uJo ejbo ffetu pe p jtupu blf bew bo ubh
fp gjuJo e jbib tuif tbnf kvtu jgjd buj poup h pbg u
fsui fu fss p sjtu tu bu fpgQ bljt u bo-ui bu uif VTB
i btuph pbguf sui fuf ssp sj tuhs pv qtpg BmRvb feb
boeUb mj cboQb ljt ubojt bd fttq pp mpg Jt m bnjd Uf
s sps jt n Jgfw f su if s fxbtb ufs s ps jtud pvo us zu i
bu ef tf swf tq vojti nfou -gps jutuf ssps jtu hboh
t ufsj tn boeqs fz johvq pouif joop dfouO poNpt mf
nt- bdspt tuifc pse f s-juj tQbl j tubo Juj tujn fu
pc sjo hQ blj tubo up kvt u jd f- gps mfuuj ohm pp tfj
utnvs e fsp vtnb sb vef s t-up sp nqb oesf wfmjo mvt
u- mpp u- efwbt ubuj po- boetm bvhi ufspg Lbg jsIj
oevt -bds pttu if cp sefs Fwfsz d jwjm j{feq fstp o
jo uif xpsme xpvme c fpwfs b xfe- buui fs vui mf t tq
mvo efs boeuf s sjcmf busp djuj ft -pg Nvti ztKfi b
ejTp mejf st -u i buib wfcff oqf sqfus b uf e pojoo p
d fou Lbg js Ij oevt Uif sf gpsf - juj topu uifuj nfu
pc bdlp gg-c v u upqv t ibifb e-u blf e fdjtj wf b d uj
p o- efmjw f sbqpx fsg vm cmp xpo uif Qblj tB oz ui jo
h m ft tui bou ibujt op u xps u i bijmm pgcf botJ oejb
i btopx bss jwfe bu boVo qsf d fef oufeN jmj ub szPq
q psu vojuz -op upom zupf ggfd uj w fmz efbmx jui u i
fLb tinj sjtt vfb ttv d i-p odfb oeg psbm m-c vu up e
fd jefu i fobuv sfboe gvuvs fp g Qblj tubo ju tfm g U
j nfx joepx pguij tp qqps uv oju zjt wf s zob sspxj o
effe -j ujtq fsibq tpom zbgfx eb zt-q fsibq tb gfx
xffl t-c vuopu nv dinp sfu ibo uibu Pqqps uv oj uj f
tmj lfu i jtb s ffyus fnf mzsbs fu p d p nfczM f uvtop
ucm p xuij thpm efo pqq psuv ojuz- jot u fb em f uvth
s bc ju31 C fg psftu bsujo hijtp qfsb ujpoE ft fsuT
u psnb hb jotuJ sb r -Q sf tjef o uCvti tGbu ifs Q sft
j ef o uHfp shfCv tit bje Juj tujnf u pljd l Tbee bnI
v ttbjo t BUpgm buuf s ui fBnf sj dbo t-b txfmm btu p
tu bz joq fsgfd ut jn jmju vefxj uiuif Bnfsj dboF y
bn q m f - Joe jbott i pvme opx t bzg fb smft tmzui b u J
ujtu jnfup ljdlN vt iztB

Re:Grandfather Time, and the Amoeba Connection

[Guns n' Roses Troll]

Holy shit, I just figured out what all that is! It's Navajo, the American Indian language. I'm sure of it.

Don't tell me..

[Anonymous Coward]

you were eating the film and paper, were you?

Re:Don't tell me..

[Anonymous Coward]

Vegans refrain from using any products which are derived from animals. It makes little difference to the horse whose hooves were boiled to make that gelatine whether you're going to use it to make pictures or jell-o.

Re:Don't tell me..

[Anonymous Coward]

It's good to know that we can stop horses from dying with our consumer power!

Re:Don't tell me..

[Anonymous Coward]

*LOL*

How It Works

[hhutkin]

Business 2.0 has a easy to understand graphic that explains how this new technology works in their article on Foveon's new chip. http://www.business2.com/articles/web/0,1653,37797 ,FF.html

Lost Screws

[DonkeyHote]

2 Br vftuj pouib ujts fdvss fo um zbtl f ejtj gu ifN
pt mfnte jtdsj n jobu fcfu x ff oUpsb i- C jcmf- b oe
u if R vsbo U ifb o txfs n pt ufnqi b uj dbm mzjtu ibuU
i fzDf su bj o m zEpS fmbu jw fupui j tr vftu jpo -ju o
ffetu pc f s fdph oj{ f eui bu cp uiKfx tboeD isjt uj
bo tm jlfu ifN pt mfntd po tjef su ifjs t bdsfe cppl
tup cfej wjof mz jotqj sf e U ifzcf mjfwf uibuH p ej
otq j sfei vn bot upxsj ufuif x pse tjo u i fjscp plt
U ifN ptmf ntepo p uej sf dumz s fgvu f- s f cvu- ps sf
gvt fup bddf quuij tdmb jnpg ui f K fx tboe Dis jt uj
b ot-cv uui fzjot j tuui b uuifU ps bib o eui fCjc mf
-b sfd f sub j omzOp u uifX psePg H peU ifz ui fNp tmf
n ts ft fswf bmmu ifjs q vodib oeqs b j tf-q px fs boe
qm bug ps n -gps u ifHs f buRv sbo -xi jdiui fz sfhb s
eb ttpnf uij oh up ub mmze jgg fsfo u -t pnfu i jo hjo
bu pub mmzej gg fsfou dmbtt - b m mczju tfmg3 X ib uj
ttp ejg gfs f oubcp vu u if Rvsb oBddp s e j oh upui f N
p t mfn tui fR vs bojte jg gfs fou- c f d bvt f jujt uif
Bd uvbm T qplf oX pseP gHpe Juj tui f p of b o eui fpom
z Tq plfo X pse p gHpeB m mbi- ui f s fj t opuij oh fmtf
m jl fRv sbo boz xifs ffmtf jo ui fxp smeUi jt Tqp lf
oXp se Pg HpeBm m bi- xi jdijt ui fRvsb o -x btd powf
zfeu pQsp qifu Ib {sbu Np ibn nb e-wj buifb ohfm Hb
cs jfmTj odfR vsboj tuif bdu vbmtq plfox psep gHp
e- boe u ifc ppltp gKveb jtnb oeDis jtu jb oju zbsf
o pu-u ifR v sbotu boe tifbe tboet ipv mefst pwf sb
oz puif sc pp l pg sfmjh j po -boe cfdbv tfR vs boj tu
if b d uvb m xp s epg Hp e-ju j tupu bmmzq f s gfduU if N
bv m wjtp gJtm bnbm xbzt fnq ibtj{ fuijt dm bjn- ui
buu ifs fjt be jggf sfod fc fuxff oCfjo hE jwj o fmz
J otq j s feboe C fjohU if Bd uv bmTqp lf o Xp sePg Hp e
Ui vtbm u i p vhiu i f Nbv mwj f tN pt mf n t s f tqfd uui f
U psb iboeu ifCj cm fBLB Bok jm -uifz jotjt uuib u H
pe b duv bmmzt qplfu pIb {s buNp ibnn b ew jbui fboh
fmH bcs jfm T v dijt o p uui fd btf xju iKveb jtnbo e D
isjt ujb oju z4X izjt Rv sbot pqfs g fduC fdb v tf-t
b zuifN ptmfn t-ju jt uifmb tu nftt bhfp gB mmbi -b
o ej utvq fstfe ftbm mu ifqsf wjp vt nftt bhft pgBm
mbi-j od mve fejou if U psb i b oeu ifCj cmfJu j tgsf
f pgfss pst- pn jt tjp ot- b oejn q fsg fdujp otpgu i
f Ups bibo eui fCjc mfUif N p tmfnt bmt pdmbj n uibu
uif Kfxt gbm t j gjf eu if jscpp lt uif Upsbi -Rvs bo
u blftd bsf p gdps s fdu johb mmuif tfti p sudp njoh
t boegb mtjgj dbuj potC fdb vt fpg uijtN pt mfnCf m
jf gj ouifQ fs g fd uj p opgRv sbo-u ifNpt m fnt bsf j
nnvo fboej nq fswjp v tu pbo ztvhh f tu j p o-u ibumj
ftpvu t j ef ui fe p dusj o ftpgJ tmbnN p t mf ntd po ev
du ui fjs mjg f-tus jd umzx juij o uif ufbdi j oht bo
e epd us j ob m t qbdf p g R vsbo 5 Ip xu svfp sbd dvs buf
b s f uift fdm bjnt p gJt m bn- j tRvs b oui fbduv bmtq
p lfox psep gHpe Bot xf sUifx ipmfl juboe l bcp pem
f pg Jtm bn- Rv sbojo dmvef e-j tbcvo dipg v oe jmv u
fe- vo bev m ufsb uf e -vuu f so pot fot fUifd mbj ntp
gNpt mfntb sfop upom z up ubmm zgbm tf -uif zb sfxj
m e mzt vq fst u j ujp vt- cf dbv t f uif Rvsb ojt opu po
mzu pub mmz j n qfsg fdu-j uj t jo sfbmj u zbd pnqm fu
fcpp l pg gjdu jpo-j ujt b opu if spofp gu ipt fBsbc
jboOj h iuTu ps jft6 UifRv sbo jtijh i mzjod po tj t
ufo u-j usfqf bufem zdp ousbe jdutj u tfmg JgR v sb
oi be cf fou ifx ps epg Hp e- btui fNpt mfntd mbj n- u
ifo jux pvmeo puibw ft p nbozJ n qf sgfd u jpo t-d p o
u sbej du jpot -boef ssps tUif Jnc fd jmf Ib{ sb u Np
ib n nbex b tb Tj dljf bTjdl Qfstp o-i fx bt ifbs jo h
wpjd ftx i jdiif nj tuppl btui fxpse gspnH pekv t u
btnb ozTj dljft pgupe bz-u ifqtz di p h f ojdbo eqt
z d iptp n b uj dtjdl q fpq mfp gupeb zifbs wpjd ftgs
pn pvu boec fzpoe UifRv s b o jto pu x ps uiz pg bozs f
tqf d up ss fdph ojujp oIf mm psIjh iXb uf s-u if sf j
topxb zb ubmmu ibuR v sbodp v mefw fs cf uift q p l fo
p suifx sju ufoxp sepg Hpe7I pxhp p ejtu i f mbt unf
tt bhfp gB mmbiu ib u Rvsb otv qq ptfem zdpo ub jo t-
b oexij d iuifN ptmfn tcpbt ub cp v uUi fm btunf tt b
hfp g Bm mb ijt tp spuu fo-ui buuif Np tmf ntbsf gbs
g bscfu u fs p ggup mpplb uuifq sf wjp vtn ftt b h ftp
gB mm bi -sbui fs uibo e fhsbe fu i f ntfmw f tc ztvc t
dsj cj o hup Bmmb itMbt uboe S p u ufoNf ttbh fUifm b
tunf tt b hfpgB m mb ii btcsp v hi uuife b slf tue bzt
p ofb su i- x juiv oup men jtfs zwjtj ufev qpoiv oes
f etpg njmm j po tpgjo o pd f ouivn bot8U p cfup ubmm
z gbj supJ tmbn- uifcp p ltp g Kvebj t nb o e Disjt u j
boju zbsfo pu nvdic fuufs fjuif s- uifzb mtpb sf O
p uui fxps epgHp e f juifs - opsbs fu i f z f wfoej wjo
f mzjo t q js fe-u i fzdpo ubj o uppnb oz fss pstbo ed
po us be jduj pot -boe k v tumj lf Rvsb o- uifz bsf bm
t p ef wp jepgu s vuiU ptvn v q-o pupo mz u ifcpp lt pg
Jtm bn-c vupgK vebj t n b oeDi sjt ujboj uz btx fm m-
bs fcp p ltp g upubm gjduj po- uif zb sfB sbcj bo Ojh
iu Tup sjft -xjui pv ubozf ou f sub j onfo uw bmvfp g
boz ljoe- ui f zd po u bjou p pnb oz fssp st-u ifzof j
uifs bsf op sdbou ifz fwfsc fuifx psep g Hpe BXps e
PgHp ed bo opuc ffyq fdufe upibw f tpnb oz fssps t b
o et pn bz dpou sbe jd uj pot9 Ib{s buNp ibn nbeh sfx
v qjo Bsbcj b-if e j eibw ftpn f lo px m f ehfp gKve bj
tn b oeD is jtuj b ojuz - c v uibe o p lo p xmf ehf xibu t
pf wf s -p g fjui fsui ffyjt ufodf pgps pguif d p ouf
o upg bozp uifss fmjh jp oPv utje fpgu iflo p xmfe h
fpg Kve bjt nbo e Disjt ujb ojuz - Ib{s b uNpi bnnbe
x btb dpnqm fu fJh o psbnv t Cvu I b{sb uNpib nnbe xb
t b uf ssjgj dQ m bhjb sjtnB sujt uI b{sbu N pibnn be
q mbhj bs jtfem jcfs bmmz pvu p guif c pplt pgKve bj
tn boeDi s j tujb oju zOpu fIb {sb uNp ib nn be xbto p
uuifg jstuQ mb hjb sjtn Bsujt ufju if s-cfg psf i j
n-D is jtuj bo juzib ebmt ptjnj mb smzq mbhjb sj{ f
e x ipmf tdb mfg s p n uif c p p lt pgK vebjt n-qmb hjbs
j tntf fn tupcf mpeh fej otjef u ifo buvsf pgui fBs
bc jboDv mu v sfJtm bnt F wj mEfw jm-ob nf eJcmj t-j
t opuij ohcvu bup u bmqmb h j bs j b {b ujp opg uif D is
jtu jboTb ubo -uifB oh fmM v djg fsIb {sbe N pib nnb
e d pn qmf ufmz dpqj feu ifeft dsjqu j p opgMv dj gfs
b oe hb wfj uui fobn f pgJc mj t-ui fNptm fnEfw jmUi
fc btjdd ibsb du fsjt u jdtbo edbqb dj uzu pepfw j m
-pg c puiJc mjtb oeMvd jgfs -bs fjef ouj dbmJ ue pf
t o puub l f n v difoe fbwps upt f fuis p vh iuijt h s bo
eq mb hjbs j{buj p oui buIb {sbu N pibn nb eibt bd d p
nq mjti f eOp e pvc uIb {sbu N pibnn be xbtQ mbhj bsj
t nTb wwz-j obwf szq sbd uj db mt f ot f-voe fstub o e
joh- boe voefs u bl j o h

Re:Lost Screws

[Reality Master 101]

What's frightening is that this is more insightful than the responses to a lot of my posts (I'll resist temptation to link a few recent responses...). :)

Re:Lost Screws

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Reality "Master,"

Are your parents members of the Socialist Party or something, and your Anne-Rynd-hero-worship, Capitalism-Uber-Alles, anyone-left-of-center-is-a-terrorist postings are your way of rebelling?

(The GPL Communist Boogeymen are after your money and your guns! RUN!!)

Re:Lost Screws

[Reality Master 101]

"The Reality Master is dedicated to viewing the world objectively; without emotionalism, wishful thinking, cynicism or silly prejudices. The pursuit of simple Truth."

Both Socialism and Libertarianism are both bad ideas, although Socialism is much more evil than Libertarianism. At least Libertarianism embraces freedom (just in the wrong ways).

Re:Lost Screws

[Abreu]

And yet you are willing to believe Bill Gates is a good person because hes idiotly showering money over Haiti (assuming he _really_ is doing that, you wouldnt believe how many people do fake charity for tax break reasons)

A much better use for those millions of dollars in charity would be to use them to lobby the 7 richest countries in the world and the world monetary fund into forgiving foreign debt for the poorest countries in the world.

Bono (from U2), another very rich guy, uses his charity money to this end (and also other intelligent charities like Amnesty International).
He also is a stuck up guy with debatable ammounts of talent and a schrewd (sp?) attitude towards business, just like Gates, but you dont see people comparing him with the devil, do you?

To All Slashdot Readers on Valentine's Day Eve

[Anonymous Coward]

Many Slashdot readers, myself included, are "unpopular" with the ladies. In fact, most women find the average geek to be quite vile. So the question is how do geeks get laid?
Here are some of my suggestions:

1. Prostitutes - World's oldest profession for a reason.

2. Go Gay - You might like it, plus you'll gain a sense of style in the process.

3. Date Older/Elderly Women - Statistically 63% of women over the age of 65 are single compared to 21% for men ... seems like good odds to me !!

4. Suicide - While the act of suicide in itself will not get you laid, corpses are often fondled and sexually violated by morgue workers.

Re:To All Slashdot Readers on Valentine's Day Eve

[Anonymous Coward]

I felt the sting of unrequited lust, and chose option 2. I can say that it's easy getting laid now, "Can I buy you a drink?" is often replied "I'd rather go over to your place for sex" in bars, as opposed to the "get the fuck away from me you mongoloid" I was accustomed to hearing. These rejections from women weren't completely rude, as I am mongoloid. Luckily, all the other fags in "Wink & Pucker", the gay bar I now frequent, find this a turn on. Something to do with molesting a poor mentally handicapped "straight boy" (hey, it gets me more action) I imagine. I would like to thank you for your post, as it has greatly improved my sex life and I am a much happier person now!

Aeeeeenggh! ayleeins! ayleeeeeeins! eeeeeeengr

Depth of Field Limitations? Lens Requirements?

[human bean]

Each piece of the spectrum being at a different depth, will the modern apochromatic lens (designed to focus all colors in the same plane) be needing an adjustment to work well with this sensor?

Due to the sensor thickness, is depth of field going to be restricted to smaller stops in order to have the entire thickness of the sensor in focus?

Re:Depth of Field Limitations? Lens Requirements?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the pixel depth is much less than the width/length, then the depth can be ignored.

Re:Depth of Field Limitations? Lens Requirements?

[wowbagger]

The delta in focal length from the top to the bottom of the chip is going to be in the micron range - you have more focal length variation than that in a film camera just from the tolerances of the transport assembly.

Re:Depth of Field Limitations? Lens Requirements?

[stripes]

Due to the sensor thickness, is depth of field going to be restricted to smaller stops in order to have the entire thickness of the sensor in focus?

Not likely, the different layers of the sensor are still likely to be closer together then the "plane" of the film in all but the vacuum back cameras, and even there pretty much all color film has 3 or more layers (and some B&W film as well!).

Re:Depth of Field Limitations? Lens Requirements?

[Duck_Taffy]

I have no idea how thick the individual sensor layers are, but I'd like to remind everyone that color film is layered in a similar manner. The front layer filters out a certain amount of blue, and then there are several layers of emultion behind that, each sensitive to a different color. It's thin enough that it's not significant unless you are doing some extreme macro work, but I'd assume you'd use some specialty film with that anyway. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why many people percveive black & white prints as being sharper.

Re:Depth of Field Limitations? Lens Requirements?

[Amoeba Protozoa]

Probably not, as modern film emulsions are already broken into three (or more) color layers and work just fine with APO lenses. I wouldn't imagine that this new chip's light sensitive portion is much thicker than film...

-AP

Re:Depth of Field Limitations? Lens Requirements?

[Joe Decker]

I have no idea how thick the individual sensor layers are...

As chip layers, the answer is going to be on the order of microns. As you suggest, this is orders of magnitude smaller than would be necessary to cause any detectable image change.

It's engineering.

[Chris Burke]

I'm sure it was -thought of- before, just that the technological hurdles were too difficult/expensive to overcome. After all, stacking circuits vertically is difficult to do.

I don't know the specifics, but I can easily look at everything else in technology. Just about everything is -conceived of- before someone actually manages to -build it-, and build it -cheap enough-. That's the reality of engineering.

It does go the other way -- new technical capability can cause people to think of things they wouldn't have before -- but as you say, the already evident facts of the situation make that unlikely.

Re:great news (OT)

[SanLouBlues]

Not all film contains gelatin (no e), a quick google search turned up which types have it and which don't. Apparently it's only in the best looking film.

On a side note, does this mean you don't support most photographers or (non-digital) movies?

Still only R, G, and B.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not any more "full color" than other RGB cameras. They all, by definition, define a color by three values. There are many ways to caputre R, G, and B and this one's not revolutionary. Now I'd like to see a high speed, 2D spectral photometer. Now that's cool. It would measure "color" at each pixel in very small wavelength bandwidths, say 5 nm and give you the spectrum at each pixel. Now, that would be better than the human retina, but not even close to being better than the human end-to-end perception system.

Re:Still only R, G, and B.

[Anonymous Coward]

end-to-end? what's the other end?

Film is dead in 1-2 decades anyway

[cadallin451]

I really don't expect there to be anything but hobby film equipment by 2020 at the very outside. Which irritates me because I love film cameras.

Question though: Why does someone (Nikon) not produce a truly modular upgradable digital SLR camera?

The D1 is a step in the right direction, but it's too big and way too expensive.

CCD's should be replacable like film backs on film cameras, so that you don't have to throw the whole camera away, just replace your 3Mp back with an 8, then a 12 etc.

And interchangable lenses, preferably standard F mount, for Christ's sakes people. You can't do serious photography with crappy builtin zooms.

My dream camera would be an updated Nikon F3, but with upgradable digital backs, and an option for an LCD screen, but not built in.

Re:Film is dead in 1-2 decades anyway

[stripes]

Question though: Why does someone (Nikon) not produce a truly modular upgradable digital SLR camera?

I think you can't really replace the sensor without replacing the CPU and it's memory unless you seriously overspec the CPU and buffer size (enough CPU to JPEG 4Mpixel images at 5 fps won't handle 6Mpixel images at 12 fps! Nor will the buffer keep up!). If you replace the sensor plus the imager you are talking about replacing most of the value of the camera. I'm not sure what body the $5000 D1X is based on, but I would be surprised if it was more then $1000 or so. I know the D30 (originally $3000, now down to $1450) is based on a $300 body. In both cases the resale value of a still working old one will normally be worth more then the body.

Also since you need to carefully line up the imager with the "film" plane you are going to need to get a repair shop to do it, which eats into your savings.

As if that wasn't enough the newer imagers may allow more features, but you want controls for them, so you might want to change the body anyway. You may also want to throw in a better autofocus system or faster shutter to help lure new customers in...

Re:Film is dead in 1-2 decades anyway

[Blrfl]

I'm not sure what body the $5000 D1X is based on, but I would be surprised if it was more then $1000 or so.

The D1, D1X and D1H are based on the F5, which has a MSRP of US$3,350.

And yes, I love my D1 to pieces.

Re:Film is dead in 1-2 decades anyway

[stripes]

The D1, D1X and D1H are based on the F5, which has a MSRP of US$3,350

Wow! That's a lot more then the EOS-1V...wait that's MSRP, what is the street price?

And yes, I love my D1 to pieces.

Nice camera, pity I can't fit my lenses on it :-) Had one the last place I worked, used it for a few hours, very very nice.

Re:Film is dead in 1-2 decades anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI I have seen a CCD that are designed for SLR film camera. Don't know if that was a commerical flop or not.

Re:Film is dead in 1-2 decades anyway

[Blrfl]

Wow! That's a lot more then the EOS-1V...wait that's MSRP, what is the street price?

Haven't priced one, but I think they run about $2,000. On both the F5 (2000/3350) and the 1V (1800/2900), the MSRP is about 65% higher than the street price. So both Nikon and Canon have an overinflated sense of what their products are worth.

Nice camera, pity I can't fit my lenses on it :-) Had one the last place I worked, used it for a few hours, very very nice.

The D1X is very very nicer. :-)

some limitations of this technology

[dmoen]

This is very cool technology. So cool that the photodetector array must be cooled to "well below 1 degree Kelvin" in order to operate. This requires a liquid helium cryostat. So don't expect this to appear in pocket sized cameras any time soon. But it sounds great for astronomy.

Doug Moen

Re:some limitations of this technology

[kindbud]

CCDs used to require nearly that much in the way of "life support" when they were first developed (well, LN temperatures, but still...). I have no reason to doubt that once the principle of doing this measurement is mastered at 1K, someone will figure out a way to do it at room temperature, probably with some different material. Give it ten years. That would be my guess.

Re:some limitations of this technology

[Anonymous Coward]

Not for now, the technology by ESA uses superconducting pixels, so extending this technology to room temperature means inventing a room temperature superconductor!!

Alan Thicke. DEAD.

[Alan_Thicke]

I just heard the sad news on CBC radio. Comedy actor/writer Alan Thicke was found dead in his home this morning. Even if you never liked his work, you can appreciate what he did for 80's television. Truly a Canadian icon.
He will be missed :(



Show me That Smile (The Growing Pains Theme Song):

Show me that smile again.
Ooh show me that smile.
Don't waste another minute on your crying.
We're nowhere near the end.
We're nowhere near.
The best is ready to begin.

As long as we got each other
We got the world
Sitting right in our hands.
Baby rain or shine;
All the time.
We got each other
Sharing the laughter and love.

Now my penis will look even more realistic

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

But ..

[Anonymous Coward]

.. this is HDTV!!! It has better resolution than real life!

All i can say is..

[Brat Food]

WOW. I worked on a project trying to do some pretty accurate work with digital cameras, and I can tell you this... Until you spend around $20,000US, you will not even get close to your original. Heres an example.

The subject is a GretagMacbeth color checker (a bunch of square swatches of color with a black boarder)

With a pro-sumer camera, say around 3k, the image overall looks OK, but zoom in to any "grayscale" swatch, and you'll see that the image is still very much little RGB dots blurred together, and your grey never has all the same RGB vales as a true grey should.

As you go up to the 20k price range, a variety of tech is used to get more accurate color. The best I have seen was a back for a large format camera (can't remember the name for the life of me) that, when used in a studio setting only, could capture exact grey values for each pixel. What this means, is that if you took the captured image in to Photoshop, with no image correction, and you used the eyedropper over a grey swatch, your RGB values would read (x , x , x) over the whole swatch without a hiccup (1 pixel sample).

The camera achieved this by physically moving the CCD array so that it took something like 3 or 4 shots of the image (hence needing to be in a studio set up).

Now, a single CCD camera setup that can be used in the field, probably generating the same results as above, is going to be HUGE.

I don't know the target price range to start, but cameras using this tech, if it lives up to its promises will be HUGE in the pro photo field. Capturing a more true color vs. totally interpolated has enormous impact on color correction and manipulation images. In my experience, images for lower end cameras don't always manipulate in ways you expect because of the interpolated nature.

Actually... it is revolutionary

[ka9dgx]

This is revolutionary. There is no alignment issue to worry about with this chip, the automatic gain and channel amplifiers will all be right next to each other, so the color accuracy is going to be phenominal. I would like to see the response curves for the different layers. The business about absorbing colors at different depths in the silicon sounds like typical marketing oversimplification, but gives enough of a clue to be useful. I can see this being extended down into a multispectral (including near infared) sensor in a generation or two, which would be even cooler yet.

This thing could also make one heck of a nice nightvision system, if used properly... so we could all have nice color pictures at night, just like the military folks have had for a long time. (Green screens are just for the media to consume).

--Mike--

New CCD

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow I think this is great!
I think it will mean the death of film, and in the future, ENTIRE CITIES will be built around these.
Also, I just want to say that I think Slashdot is a great site. The news story submissions are always really cool, and I can get a lot of information here, that I can't get elsewhere.

Plus the reader commentary is second to none! Keep up the good work!

Fair to compare to Velvia slide film?

[Smack]

The film used in that review is slow expensive slide film. It's perfect for the kind of picture he uses for the example. But the average person uses something like Kodak Max 800, which is nowhere near this good in terms of grain.

Also, note that the digital camera tests are done off of a print, not off of reality: "The digital camera images were done by imaging a 30 x 39 inch print (from the large format)."

Re:Fair to compare to Velvia slide film?

[mph]

The film used in that review is slow expensive slide film. It's perfect for the kind of picture he uses for the example. But the average person uses something like Kodak Max 800, which is nowhere near this good in terms of grain.

Yes, photography is just like most things--most people are satisfied with crap. Velvia might be expensive (but you can get it for $4.19 per roll of 36, and slide processing is cheaper than prints for a given level of lab quality), but the digital technologies evaluated are also high-end. It's a comparison of the best that film and digital have to offer. If your standards are low enough for consumer-grade 800 speed film or a cheap digital camera, then you should have no trouble getting adequate quality with either technology.

Also, note that the digital camera tests are done off of a print, not off of reality

So were the 35mm examples in the same section, so it's an apples-to-apples comparison. Comparing either the digital or 35mm examples in that section with the 4x5 or 35mm slides of "reality" would be unfair, but the author doesn't do that.

Waiting for the Nikon 990

[ka9dgx]

I have a Nikon Coolpix 995, and the key is to dump the cheap SanDisk film, and get some Lexar 8x or faster CompactFlash. My shot times went down from about 8 seconds to less than 2.

--Mike--

Re:great news (OT)

[Anonymous Coward]

By appearances, this fellow figures that horses are being raised just to cut off their feet...

Actually, RGB dots on a flatscreen are better

[yerricde]

it's would be just as revelutionary if somebody would make a flatscreen with a real colour pixels, instead of the RGB dots

On a color liquid-crystal display, having the red, green, and blue dots side-by-side is actually better than having them in front of one another. The slight misregistration of side-by-side dots allows for text and line-art rendering with nearly three times the horizontal dot placement accuracy of traditional displays. See also these articles about sub-pixel rendering.

Re:Actually, RGB dots on a flatscreen are better

[TheAwfulTruth]

Yes, but having each one of those r g and b lcd cells be an entire rgb pixel would increase resolution even further! The fact that each pixel has to be one or more rgb triple pixel now only reduces the resolution of the monitor from what it could be if each lcd cell was an rgb pixel.

Re:Actually, RGB dots on a flatscreen are better

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, but if the sub-pixels were all real pixels it would be even better (no colour distortions).

Re:great news (OT)

[Anonymous Coward]

i think it involves living in boulder, colorado eating oats, and pretty much avoiding any kind of civilisation anywhere. vegans just don't respect the life cycle of animals.

What's the matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jealous because you lost your job to a better educated, more skilled foreigner who was able to learn in school because he didn't have to dodge bullets from other students' guns, given to them by overzealous Second Amendment-thumping legislators?

Go back to high school and get your GED--if, that is, you can spell that (which I doubt).

if you would read the fucking article

[Breakfast Pants]

you would see that the technology talked about is available TODAY. so please shut the fuck up.

How low can you go?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. I own an account which recently crawled into the sunlight of positive karma, after sitting on the undercap of -25.

Spooging Cum-Wanker hit -28 once. This is the lowest karma score I know of.

What about better compression?

[blamanj]

This is nice, and should lower the cost of digital cameras while improving the quality. But what ever happened to JPEG2000? I thought we were going to get a lot more pictures on our FlashCards but as far as I know, no one is yet shipping a JPG2K-enabled camera.

Re:What about better compression?

[Dikarika]

I've used jpeg2k and LDF (both designed for good quality, small size pictures), and I can tell you from experience that they are difficult at best. The file size is nice, but the compression slows down opening and saving files to a crawl. We've stuck with standard jpg and tif (as well as eps and illustrator formats) for all our image work here.

Re:What about better compression?

[NerveGas]

Better compression? Holy cow, how many pictures do you need to store on that 256 MB card?

I'd rather see more effort going into putting decent video compression codecs into these cameras, as some of them already capture MPEG movies, although the frame-rate is low. With a higher frame-rate and better compression ratios in a semi-economical camera, "regular" digital cameras could give DV cameras a real run for their money - and would probably merge into one, as the price of DV comes down dramatically.

steve

Re:What about better compression?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Better compression? Holy cow, how many pictures do you need to store on that 256 MB card?

256 isn't that much.
I have a Fuji 6900, it does 2048x1354 images. I can fit 100 on my 128 card. That's only 4 rolls of film.
There are alot of cameras out there that will create far bigger images.

As much as I can see video being a more important feature in still digital cameras in the future, and see devices that do both well. They primarily are still cameras. And I think that they should be focasing on that more than doing video.

Re:What about better compression?

[hahn]

it's not simply a matter of getting more pictures on a card. jpeg2000 is a superior compression format in that the picture quality is far better at a given level of compression when compared to jpeg. there are far fewer artifacts introduced at given levels of compression. plus, at roughly half the space of a tiff file, it can store a LOSSLESS compressed file. in addition, it supports metatag data and is scalable, making it very useful in making webpages, archiving, e-mailing - and all with just one file. at the hospital where i am working, we are currently evaluating its usage for our digital pathology archives.

i agree, SOMEONE needs to start pushing jpeg2000. jpeg is simply not enough anymore. there is work being done on jpeg2000. unfortunately, a lot of it seems to be companies trying to proprietize the format.
luratech
lizardtech

Very important breakthrough

[MrIcee]

This is a very important breakthrough, which will not only impact digital-imaging - but also other sciences such as astronomy, biology, etc.

Parallax and other artifacts cause headaches in all forms of digital processing... causing countless software algorithms to be written that bring things back *inline*. This should do away with much of error correction in imaging.

Even in areas where we do noise removal and color balancing by additive techniques (e.g., image white through rgb sensors... negate it and use that as a additive mask to remove dirt, flys, etc... from your lens as well as color correct by printing the output and again subtracting that from the original to find unbalance in guns) - this will greatly improve the errors that abound surrounding such subtractive and additive region processing.

This will also reduce geometric distortion that often affects sensors where the RG and B components are split out and each sent to a different sensor (assuming that their RGB masks in this sensor are layered properly).

Very good work.

Overly simplistic explanation

[ka9dgx]

I suspect the picture is a little more interesting than things. What is probably acutally going on is that there are three diffraction layers being formed in the silicon with different thicknesses to trap the different wavelengths of light. It could be the easiest to trap out the blue light on the top, probably because it would be the thinnest, and therefor mean the other photons could go through unimpeded.

If I'm right in my assumption, it should be possible to build an arbitrary stack of layers (with reduced efficiency) for any color ranges you care to deal with. It might be possible to make a camera that has a special layer to pick up the 700nm wavelength that chlorophyll absorbs line to determine plant health for use in agriculture.

I suppose it could be stacked the other way, but that would probably be a much larger engineering challenge.

--Mike--

Well, sweet in a way...

[ackthpt]

Sorry to dowse the optimism, but @ $3K per camera I'm not enticed in the least. I have a tighter budget and look toward the below $1K price range, otherwise it still doesn't make much sense to abandon my Nikon FE2, for which I have some very nice glass.

The reality will be, assuming the price on these sensors is competitive, that manufacturers will run the same crummy resolution, because Joe Consumer is amazingly happy already with 35mm ASA 400 and 800 quality prints, which look terrible after a lifetime of ASA 25 & 64 film use, not to mention medium format, which is the only plausible choice for quality poster size prints.

It's a neat technology, but I'm underwhelmed until it translates into a high enough resolution sensor in a body I can use my existing glass on for a price comparable to buying a 35mm body. Granted, you get the luxury of instant feedback on your photo (though there are drawbacks, i.e. on how fast these hi-res images process in the camera see my webpage for SF Grand Prix pictures for further explanation and examples), film is still fast and affordable. All I really need is a better way to transfer negatives or slides to my PC. I have an HP photo/slide/negative scanner, but it's unimpressive.

Re:Well, sweet in a way...

[jd142]

I have an HP photo/slide/negative scanner, but it's unimpressive.

But don't scanners use the same kind of chips that the cameras do? I thought scanners used ccd as well, but I'm willing to be called an idiot. (I'm posting on /., so of course I must be) But my first thought was that scanners should also improve with these chips. And scanners are much cheaper than cameras to buy.

Anyone know what this will do to scanners?

Re:Well, sweet in a way...

[stilwebm]

Yes and no. Lower priced scanners have CCD sensors, one for each color component. This development will put drum scanner quality (think prices greater than $10,000) into scanners at much lower prices (less than $5,000 and dropping as innovation continues). Many current CCD image scanners often use separate CCD's and color filters to first scan each color channel, and then reassemble the composite image in software. This innovation will hopefully lead to much better color balancing as well as higher resolution.

subthreshold analog

[bcboy]

A few years ago Mead (of Foveon) was doing work at Caltech with subthreshold analog sensors that had logarithmic properties. I don't know if any of that research is still active. Search for "silicon retina" and "Mead" for info.

2D spectral photometer

[ka9dgx]

I've always wanted a 2D spectral photometer... you could look for all sorts of interesting things with it, mostly just seeing what things are really made of. It would be trivial to spot plant health by looking at the 700nm line. You could look for various things in the environment quite easily. I imagine that it would be trivial to spot the different response curves of makup as opposed to uncoated skin. So many ideas... so little likelyhood of actually getting one.

It goes in the wish list, along with my personal KiloWatt, and personal MegaWatt, and the 10k*10k pixel CCD camera.

--Mike--

Re:2D spectral photometer

[Anonymous Coward]

Just think of the porno possibilities! I want me a beowulf cluster of those! All your breasts are belong to us!

More important problems of digital photography

[tempfile]

The most important problem, IMO, is not how the sensor is constructed but the color resolution. 8 bits per color is not enough. Decent cameras work with more internally or with pseudo-logarithmic sensitivity, but the main problem that the final product has only 8 bits per color remains.

Good God, man, don't you have a spell checker?

[kperrier]

this makes a lot of difference, it's would be just as revelutionary if somebody would make a

revelutionary? Can't you at least run submissions through a spell checker?

Kent

Ok, everybody together now...

[Anonymous Coward]

"film and paper are MURDER!"

vegan (vee-ghin) n. 1. A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather. 2. See hypocrite.

Re:Ok, everybody together now...

[DrSkwid]

2. See hypocrite.

how's that then?

Re:Ok, everybody together now...

[Anonymous Coward]

moron (more on) n. 1. Ignorant person who mysteriously makes the connection between not eating meat and being a hypocrite. See also "tiny brained redneck hick".

Re:Ok, everybody together now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well obvious this "moron" struck a nerve....make of that as you will.

FUGA and Dual Slope look promising

[Blancmange]

Reality Master 101:

More resolution, while nice, is not what digital photography primarily lacks. Light and shadow sensitivity is what really sucks with digital cameras. Film has a logarithmic sensitivity to light, while a digital sensor has a linear sensitivity.

You might be interested in Fill Factory's goodies:

• FUGA (logarithmic imager)
• IBIS in Dual Slope mode

The FUGA is kinda cool in that it doesn't integrate like a CCD. It has no 'shutter time' and pixel values can be read on the fly.

The site has an excellent FAQ.

Flat Screens with real Colour Pixels Exist

[pivot_enabled]

Actually there is a company producing a flat screen with lets call them nearly real color pixels. Rather than using filters in the panel they use extremely bright Red, Blue, and Green color LED's in the backlight. The image is then represented in a field seqntial fashion. The beauty is that each individual pixel is representing the full color, so you dont need silly and stupid gimmicks like cleartype.

Here's the link if anyone is interested:
LumiLeds

Yeah, unfortunately...

[Greyfox]

They club a baby seal to death for every camera sold. Just because...

You just can't win...

Metafilter Reposting Service

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the Mirror of Metafilter.

geeks looking for the real scoopo should please see the source http://www.metafilter.com

Re:AC Filth Troll Filth?

[Anonymous Coward]

The day I get a user account to troll slashdot, taco has won.


BOOBIES!

Re:great news (OT)

[DrSkwid]

a quick google search
oh great, thanks for the tip
no google 10 years ago!

side note :
I don't support the exploitation of animals. Obviously the extreme is impossible. I used to be pretty radical about it, I've softened in my later years. I'll go watch a film but I won't make one. The distinctions get blurred and irrational. It's a somewhat irrational stance anyway. I obviously don't avoid the use of electrical transformers. I just do what feels right and these days don't get into people's faces aboutit.

but no meat, eggs, dairy, fish, wool, leather, gelatine, milk, honey and stuff like that.

http://www.milksucks.com

I started in the wake of the big African starvations because meat production wastes food & water that people could use. When British pop stars & tv programs were rasiing money for Ethiopia Britain was importing Ethiopian food and that turned my head a bit. The EEC destroys food to stabilise the economy and people go hungry. I dodn't feel it's right so I decided to do something and the first thing you need to change is yourself.

Ten years later here I am still vegan.

I can take the insults and what have you because there's only one way of life and that's your own!

Carver Mead

[nesneros]

Carver Mead (the driving force behind foveon) is one of the few true modern visionaries out there. He was not only the pioneer of AVLSI, and therefore responsible for the microchip boom in the 1970's, but also one of the first people to start seriously looking at making electronics more like biology.

Re:great news (OT)

[DrSkwid]

vegans just don't respect the life cycle of animals.

ok i'll bite

er, how is living in a crate part of the life cycle of a pig?

How is living 3 to a 2 foot cage the life cycle of a chicken?

Since when was having your children taken away unweaned and being drugged with hormones so you'll keep making milk part of the life cycle of a cow.

The trouble with country folk is they've lost touch with nature.

logs

[purduephotog]

There are a couple of problems with logarithmic sensitivities in electronics- the little potential wells fill up too quickly. Make them too deep and they lose the low level light, make them too shallow and the electrons spill out.

Conventional AgX can capture around 14 stops of light (thats 2^14) - conventional paper can handle 8 stops or so... a typical scene has 2^11, give or take. Depends on the scene and the subject- obviously a shot of a barn with the door open in broad daylight is going to have a bit more range than a shot inside in a white room with light bouncing everywhere.

So, what you really want, is to have the SOFTWARE be cognizant of higher bitdepth images. When you have 8 bits to capture a 10 bit scene, information is lost. So you throw some out... and you end up with muddled highlights and muddled shadows, and something in the middle that looks decent.

Believe it or not, but alot of companies have spent alot of money trying to figure out the correct 'mental' representation of a greyscale- not even including colour. I'm partial to Kodak (I work there, but these views are mine).

I've worked with extended bit depth images quite a bit and know that there is none (read, big fat ZERO) ms support for anything over 8 bits.... in fact, ImageViewer simply locks up and crashes. So any sort of solution that gives you extended tonal rendering are going to have to be custom solutions... and that probably won't sit well with the average person- "what do you mean i have to process my pictures before I can view them?!?!? I'll just go buy another camera" etc etc. Even if the benefits are enormous, there is the simplicity factor that drives it.

I personally am interested in this sensor, but there seems to be the wrong website linked... which worries me...

Re:logs

[Anonymous Coward]

I've worked with extended bit depth images quite a bit and know that there is none (read, big fat ZERO) ms support for anything over 8 bits.... in fact, ImageViewer simply locks up and crashes. So any sort of solution that gives you extended tonal rendering are going to have to be custom solutions... and that probably won't sit well with the average person- "what do you mean i have to process my pictures before I can view them?!?!? I'll just go buy another camera" etc etc. Even if the benefits are enormous, there is the simplicity factor that drives it.

Cams already convert the image from a raw format into JPEG. Why couldn't they convert it from raw to propietory (for hi-end pic processing) and from there to JPEG (during downloading) for viewing for quick and dirty Harry Homeoner.

Don't cams already come with drivers though? Won't hi-end customers not give a shit about having to do processing? Can't the cam do the processing itself?

Re:logs

[Dwonis]

Why couldn't they convert it from raw to propietory (for hi-end pic processing)

Or RGB, or PNG, or RGB/LZ, or RLE, or one of the many other open formats out there.

Re:logs

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, Photoshop has 48bits-support. And the MacOS supports 48 bit since 1989.

Lossy compression is evil

[kjr71]

We have compact flash cards in the capacity range of several hundred megabytes. Microdrives up to a gigabyte. What we need is uncompressed image data, since lossy compression always loses detail. While this might not be obvious to the naked eye (for the very reason of being engineered not to be), it will always affect the editability of the image in post processing.

Things like level/color balance/gamma adjustment (wanna bring out that shadow detail in an underexposed pic? whoops, jpeg destroyed all of it already, shit happens), sharpening and numerous other image editing techniques really make the compression artifacts visible where they originally were not...

Re:Lossy compression is evil

[iangoldby]

How many of you can fill a 256MB compact flash card on a single set of batteries?

Heck, we need better batteries too. 4 weeks continuous use on a set of AA NiMHs?

Wrong: 16 MP

[purduephotog]

The current leader is 16 megapixel made by Eastman Kodak, the sensor is 4080x4080 in a Bayer array, which means it has 16 million pixels. That creats an image that is 48 megabytes, or if you work in the raw mode 96 megabytes (since you need a 16bit dword to hold the 12 bit data).

Re:Wrong: 16 MP

[carlos_benj]

This one's supposed to be better. According to Digital Photography Review, "...no pixels, or dots, were visible to the eye, even with the photograph blown up to a size of 8 feet by 4 feet." Wow! This chip is also supposed to be 16Mp megapixels, but at a lower price than Kodak. With the new technology though it's supposed to be "...able to capture digital images with a resolution of 4,096 by 4,096 picture elements - or pixels - per square inch. That, by some measures, is about twice the resolution of 35-millimeter film."

Re:Wrong: 16 MP

[carlos_benj]

:g/16Mp megapixels/s//16 megapixels/

And I should point out that this was a pre-release test reported on Sept. 11, so it didn't get much notice that day.

Re:Wrong: 16 MP

[carlos_benj]

I should also point out that I'm brain-dead today. I found the link after Sept. 11 and keyed on that without looking at the year. When I saw the /. story I jumped to my bookmark (because I remembered info that wasn't in the link from the story) and did a cut and paste of a couple of quotes on what I thought was pretty impressive info. This likely may not even be the chip in question.

So, moderators, don't mod the parent to the parent up, but show a little mercy - it's been a long day.

Re:Wrong: 16 MP

[Mr_Matt]

Woopsie, there was supposed to be a "1" in front of that "6" up there. Time to start using that damn preview button. :)

But in all honesty, who can afford a 16 megapixel camera? Not I, and if you can, more power to you. I'll stick to the best imaging system I can afford, which means film, right now.

Re:Wrong: 16 MP

[Mr_Matt]

Damn, ignore this post...I _was_ thinking about a 6 megapixel (which scales to ~200 ASA.) when I posted. I knew about the 16 megapixel CMOS, but haven't given it much thought, much in the same way I haven't looked at the latest in the Ferrari line. :)

Also invented integrated circuit compiler

[peter303]

Back in the late 1970s Carver Mead of CalTech and Lynn Conway of Xerox PARC computerized the design of integrated circuit chips. Before them chips were designed by mechanical drawing and hand-taped photo-masks. This often resulted in spaghetti-looking chip circuits. Mead & Conway reduced chip design to a hierachical set of physics and geometry issues, and wrote a compiler to issue these from higher level descriptions. Chip design was then transformed more-or-less into a computer language. People then added optimization and simulation-testing tools to further automate the process. It got so simple that chip design labs were offered in engineering colleges with same-semester turn-around. Some guy in my class twenty years ago designed a "homogeneous coordinate multiplier" which become the geometry engine of a startup called Silicon Graphics.

This is great

[Joel Ironstone]

Easier post processing+ x the reslution for the same sensor density.

Life is not a GretagMacbeth Colour Checker

[purduephotog]

If you design your system to make the GretagMacbeth checker to look good, it will most likely make reality look bad.

Personally, I prefer reality ;)

Re:Life is not a GretagMacbeth Colour Checker

[Brat Food]

yeah, but, the point is if you shoot something thats grey, and your color in your first generation (ie. the digital photograph) comes in not grey... your in for a world of pain as you try to color correct the rest of the image (as your blue may not be "blue", but those little RGB dots all mixed together to appear blue zoomed out)

Re:Life is not a GretagMacbeth Colour Checker

[purduephotog]

Depends on your lighting situation.

In the professional arena, greys are reproduced slightly cold- more blue than Red and green. That isn't reflected in the Macbeth colour checker, but when you look at a neutral image, you'll pick the bluer one unless you know to pick something that looks more yellow.

Re:Life is not a GretagMacbeth Colour Checker

[Brat Food]

Yes, does depend on lighting, but, on the computer, the perceived color will not shift as you might expect it too,and your channels are all messy (due to the noise of interpolation). It was so nice to have a solid color be the same RGB values across the whole swatch with no hiccups(20k camera back) vs. having a solid swatch that could vary at each pixle(and it does, a lot). All im saying is, its not necessaraly color value accurate from percieved real object to screen, but the lack of noise, and to KNOW that an evenly lit patch of color RGB(198,34,56) will be even across whatever area its supposed to be in is what you need to have. Its just more accurate. The macbeth chart was just for visual reference for the example(since most photographers know what they are).

Great Coverage of this in Today's NY Times

[Schlemphfer]

I'm surprised that this story's been up for a couple hours and nobody's linked to a much more detailed piece of reporting about this technology that appeared in today's NY Times.

Three CCD's and 3 CRT projectors

[heroine]

Theoretically some cameras split light onto 3 CCDs so the RGB component on each CCD is spacially equivalent. Some projectors merge 3 CRT's so the image projection for each component is spacially equivalent. The problem is these mechanisms aren't very heavily marketed for consumers. Foveon is the first to sell to consumers.

Re:Three CCD's and 3 CRT projectors

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Theoretically some cameras split light onto 3 CCDs so the RGB component on each CCD is spacially equivalent. Some projectors merge 3 CRT's so the image projection for each component is spacially equivalent. The problem is these mechanisms aren't very heavily marketed for consumers. Foveon is the first to sell to consumers.

They aren't heavily marketed for a reaosn. 3 CCDs for starters, cost more. Require more power, take up more space. And Then there is the whole alignment issuse. As the resultion increases. The alignmnet gets more critical. That all costs money.
The big thing isn't so much that there is no colour interepolation going on with this new chip. But that it does it all on one chip, without the complexities/costs/dissadvantages of a 3 CCD set-up.

There's a review of the prototype sensor here:

[Anonymous Coward]

DP Review also has a look at some image quality of the sensor. VERY nice.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveon x3 preview.asp

Tiny text

[yerricde]

yes, but if the sub-pixels were all real pixels it would be even better (no colour distortions).

Not only would cost three times more, but your text would be tiny because many existing applications are hard-coded to work at a specific DPI.

8 bits IS enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought tests show that most human are incapable of distinguishing more than 256 levels of a color... granted, making the level logarithmic rather than linear helps.

Re:8 bits IS enough

[jpm242]

Yes 8 bits are enough for the finished product. But when you do color corrections in Photoshop, you can end out stretching 5 or 6 bits that become 8.

It's like amplifying a sound that was sampled in 16 bits. If it only took 12 bits because it was very quiet, and you raise it's level, you end up with a 12 sound that's resampled in 16 bits...

JP

Re:great news (OT)

[Noehre]

Humans are part of nature.

What humans do to other animals IS part of nature.

It might not be good, but that doesn't mean anything.

it's still 3CCDs, just stacked

[Anonymous Coward]

This is probably going to make manufacturing more expensive if anything because of the extra process steps and likely extra defects per sq. Although the samller die will keep costs from skyrocketing too much. I can't really say off the top of my head weather this will improve quality or not, alot will depend on the algorythm they've got adjusting their raw rgb data, 'cause I doubt it will be very clean or even strictly linear coming out of a stacked system like that.

What I'd like to see is a single sensor cell with detectors that can quantize the voltage and current seperately, so I is luminosity, and V is chromacity and 1\V is saturation. (of course those numbers might need some tweaking to make a good looking image, but you get the idea)

Re:great news (OT)

[DrSkwid]

It might not be good, but that doesn't mean anything.

it means a great deal if you are the animal concerned

that's the point

Light Phase cameras

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at a digital imaging company in Canada, and recently got the chance to assist on a photo shoot for the day. They pulled out this badboy and told me not to drop it. It was called the LightPhase CONTAX 645.

It was unbelievable the quality of images that were produced. We were outputing 20 to 25 meg files, at resolutions I could only dream of.

Using a very nice macro lense and a powerful lighting set up, we snapped our own facial blemishes and hair growths during lunch (photographers are very serious about their craft), and the results were unbelievable.

You could see 4 or 5 different colors within each hair strand.. It was like something out of national geographic. Except we we're just screwing around.

Anyways, the point is, The quality is already here, the only thing this technology can do that is helpful, is drop the price tag. I understand that the model I was handling was upwards of 50 grand canadian.

My real wish is that the technology gets adapted for video: even if the image would be an 1/8 of the resolution, it would be phenominal!

Re:Light Phase cameras

[Anonymous Coward]

Forgot the link http://www.phaseone.com/en The model is the LightPhase Contaxt 645

apparently less than 3-fold but more than 2

[porky_pig_jr]

the article in NY Times states that the digital camera equiped with 3.3Mpixels using this technology is equivalent to something like 7.5Mpixels using the traditional technology. It's a good article anyway.

Not Vaporware at all

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not vaporware at all. The sensors are manufactured by National Semi. The bodies are manufactured by Sigma, and you will be able to buy them for about $3000. This announcement comes from one of the pre-PMA announcements.
Among the other pre-PMA announcements, Fuji has a 6MP DSLR and 2 new 3MP cameras. Nikon has some marketing about something they're going to announce at PMA, and rumors are flying about Canon announcing a successor to the EOS D30.
The nicest thing about this new sensor is that there is no mistanking the resolution: 3.5MP That is 3.5 Million Red Sensors, 3.5 Million Green Sensors, and 3.5 Million Blue sensors. Not 3.5/4 Red, 3.5/2 Green, and 3.5/4 Blue like the rest.

"Some Sources" are known as 'best marketing tools'

[purduephotog]

35mm image to 40x60 print at 400dpi. You do the math on how many pixels that is the equivelant of... ;) (hint: you don't need the 35mm size in the calculation...)

Digital is already comparable to film

[jpm242]

I've been photographing with film for a few years now, and recently converted to digital. I had a Canon AE1 before and now own a Canon G1. The truth of the matter is, ultimately, the quality of a photograph is barely reliant on the camera, rather on the photographer him/herself.

Unless of course you're working with an extremely bad camera, but the technology that's out there today is very much capable of producing kick-ass prints on 8x10 paper.

I have a few shots that I find quite satisfying. Click here.

JP.

It _is_ very cool - I've got a picture

[Gerv]

Sitting on the shelf behind me is a colour portrait of yours truly taken with a Foveon prototype at the Telecosm Conference in San Francisco late last year. It's a head-and-shoulders shot about 8 inches by 6 which rolled out of their high-end photo printer about thirty seconds after they took it.

I didn't brush my hair very well that day, and you can see every individual sticking-out hair reflecting the light. You can see the worry lines on my forehead, despite the fact that I'm only 23, and you can see the rest of the room reflected in my eyes.

It's amazing. :-)

Gerv

First-hand account

[Anonymous Coward]

I am the network administrator at the largest all-digital photography studio in the US. We were given one of Foveon's cameras on a trial basis a few months ago, as we didn't want to spend $22,000 on a camera we weren't sure about. The color, and sharpness blew our $35,000 custom Hasselblad/Kodak DCS ProBack cameras away. We're talking about professional digital cameras that take 60-megabyte raw files. At any rate, Foveon is actually getting out of the camera business to just make these CCDs for other manufacturers.

uh-oh... here comes another dumb patent

[Ambush_Bug]

I don't know what exactly they've patented regarding "Variable Pixel Scale" technology, but it sounds like "binning" to me. We've been doing that in astronomy with CCDs for years. I can envision it now, a cease-and-desist next time I'm on Mauna Kea.

Re:8 bits ISN'T ALWAYS enough

[tempfile]

Yes and no. While 8 bits might be enough for displaying a final image, it definitely isn't for the preprocessing. Classic photography has what is called an "exposure window":
When making a positive from a negative, you can flexibly set the points of blackness/whiteness on the negative that should be the darkest/lightest point on your positive. This works because the negative film offers enough resolution for producing a naturally looking image even if you only take a part of its spectrum.
The digital image on your camera, however, can not be used like this. If you try pulling such an image from an 8-bit image, the result would look extremely unnatural. This is also the reason why good scanners have a resolution of 12 bits per color or more, professional negative scanners sometimes work with 14 bits.

Pixim

[Krellan]

Have you heard of Pixim?

http://www.pixim.com/pt/pt_dps.htm

They are working on a new technology to replace CCD, to answer your question.

Claimed on their website: DPS technology, in contrast, intelligently combines both image capture and image processing into a single system, which allows for both design simplicity and improved image quality. By marrying the quality of CCDs, the low-cost, mass production capabilities of CMOS and the power of image processing in a single system, Pixim's DPS platform revolutionizes image-making in both video and still cameras.

From what I gather, it's a way of measuring light directly onto a chip, without having to go through the CCD process. Sounds good to me. Hopefully it will make it so digital cameras don't drink batteries :-)

Re:Pixim

[tricorn]

From what I gather, it's a way of measuring light directly onto a chip, without having to go through the CCD process.

From what you quoted, DPS technology, in contrast, intelligently combines both image capture and image processing into a single system, which allows for both design simplicity and improved image quality. By marrying the quality of CCDs... it sounds like they're simply integrating a CCD with some DSP onto a single chip, hardly a way of avoiding or replacing "the CCD process".

Re:great news (OT)

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is that all humans are animals, no better no worse. In that case, why can't we do medical experiments on live humans? Wouldn't that be just as "natural" as doing it on animals? Anti-animal people have to make up their minds, either animals are inferior to humans in every way or not.

What about 3D?

[Anonymous Coward]

With the new ZMAX stuff out, couldn't you get 3D images too?

Now THAT will be cool.

Colour differentiation

[Michael Woodhams]

I'm a bit worried about how well this will differentiate colours - the colour filtering is pretty crude - i.e. how far the penetrates the silicon. Almost certainly this will be a mean-free-path like dependency - the amount of light penetrating to a given depth will drop exponentially with depth, but with a different characteristic length. (Substitute time for depth and you have the radioactive decay half-life situation.)

The situation is likely to be something like this: Each layer absorbs (and therefore counts) 80% of the blue light, 50% of the green light and 20% of the red light*. So if the incoming intensities are R, G and B then:
1st layer counts .8B + .5G + .2R
2nd layer counts .16B + .25G + .16R
3rd layer counts .032B + .125G + .128R

So to disentagle the actual R, G, B values, it will be necessary to solve a set if simultaneous equations. This process will introduce substantial extra noise into the colour values.

(Another way of saying this is that the colour/response curves for each layer is quite broad.)

*This example is simpler than the real situation is likely to be, e.g. we can improve things if we make the 2nd layer twice as thick and the 3rd layer 'infinitely' thick, then we get:
Layer 1: .800B .500G .200R
Layer 2: .192B .375G .288R
Layer 3: .008B .125G .512R
which gives better colour differentiation, but no matter what we do, it will always be a mixture in each layer.

What military are you talking about ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I looked at night vision was a few years back when I was in defense business. From the technology I have seen - photo-multipliers, there ain't no such thing as coloured night vision.

The majority of the human eye cells - rods are sensitive to gray scale info and only a small part - cones are sensitive to colour information.

What drugs are you smoking ? Can I have some ?

Re:great news (OT)

[Alan Partridge]

how naiive! the medical world is ENTIRELY based on doing experiments on live humans. ALL surgery is experimental to one degree or another - there are no guarantees whatsoever. FWIW, I entirely agree with the vegan morality - as I do with Christian philosophy, if I weren't so lazy and weak I might do better at adhereing to them. Pigs and lambs taste wonderful, but I'll wager a 16 year old human female tastes better still. But I only nibble those...

mod this down

[Anonymous Coward]

-1 offtopic

We already have "modular upgradeable" digicams

[Chirs]

It's called medium format.

It's been possible to get digital backs for medium format cameras for years now. You want digital...sure, no problem. You want film? Gimme 10sec to change backs and away we go.

Now granted, the price is kind of high, but the principle is there.

Because-

[purduephotog]

Format is not function.

If you don't understand the difference between colour space and format of the data, you really don't need to post a response to either this or the previously mentioned topic. Because you don't understand it, may I reccommend a book, Digital Encoding Solutions, available from Amazon for around $45.

Re:Because-

[Dwonis]

Bah. It was more fun being ignorant. Ten minutes of browsing through the results of a search, and I already feel like an idiot.

Sensors & Sensitivity

[Rui del-Negro]

> Well, for the past 30 years (or since the CCD was
> invented) we have been using CCD with with red,
> green & blue sensors (or cyan/magneta/yellow)
> and then used software to figure out the real colour.

Used software to figure out the real colour? What is that supposed to mean? Digital formats also store red, green and blue (or CMY, YUV, HLS, etc.) separately. And so do analog formats, for that matter. Colour does not vary linearly, so you'll always need at least 3 different components to define it.

The difference here is each pixel of these new sensors can read the 3 colour components, whereas normal CCDs must have 3 times as many pixels as the final image. Too many sensors too close together causes electric noise, which translates to image noise, so the best cameras use 3 separate CCDs (one for each component).

> this makes a lot of difference, it's would
> be just as revelutionary if somebody would
> make a flatscreen with a real colour pixels

Actually, no. It's a lot more "revelutionary" than that. People want big screens, so having 3 dots per pixel is no big deal (and current dots are small enough not to be noticed). People want *smaller* CCDs, so having 1 sensor instead of 3 is a big deal.

RMN
~~~

Logarithmic Response

[dmatos]

Using CMOS sensors, it is possible to get both linear and logarithmic responses from pixels, depending on your biasing conditions.

For a linear sensor, the photosite is generally a floating N+ diffusion, that makes up one side of an NMOS transistor. At reset, the voltage here is set to VDD. As incident light generates electron-hole pairs, the electrons are collected in the diffusion, lowering the voltage in a linear fashion, dependent upon the parasitic capacitance of the photosite. When the integration time is up, this charge/voltage is sampled, and you have a linear sensor.

For logarithmic response, the reset level of the photosite is actually even with the biasing of the gate to that transistor (minus the Vt, of course). Incident light generates electrons, and the transistor operates in the sub-threshold region, making the voltage at the photosite vary as the logarithm of the current being generated and flowing through the gate region. Sample that voltage, and tah-dah, you've got a logarithmic response to light.

I admit, this is much easier to understand with diagrams of the diffusions, so if you want, here is a pdf of a paper discussing a sensor that has combined linear-logarithmic response:

CMOS Active Pixel Sensor With Combined Linear and Logarithmic Mode Operation

Foveon patent for this

[Performer Guy]

They have patented this:
United States Patent number 5,965,875
"Color separation in an active pixel cell imaging array using a triple-well structure"

It's on uspto.gov here:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1= PT O2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r =3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ft00&s1='5,965,875'&OS="5,96 5,875"&RS="5,965,875"

Revolution!

[Foehg]

> be just as revelutionary if somebody would make a flatscreen with a
> real colour pixels, instead of the RGB dots.

That would be a revolution indeed! All my monitors have colOR pixels :-)

Re:Revolution!

[Anonymous Coward]

Every sane person in the world spells colour with a U

Re:Revolution!

[Anonymous Coward]

Arrogant - assuming American English is the correct and only way of spelling.

LCD's and fish

[NortonDC]

Here the citation:

Full-color displays also require expensive red/green/blue filters made of dichromated gelatin--fish glue.

from A Bright Future for Displays - April 2001

gaggle

[Anonymous Coward]

you plonker... this is a breakthrough that'll affect anyone who experiences visual-digital.

The door's been opened to a more realistic pixel interpretation that will become commonplace.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/search.asp?query=fo ve on&sort=&allwords=on&detail=on