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Microsoft Settlement Comments

GreyPoopon writes: "I'm sure somebody has already sent this in, but what the heck. According to Excite, it looks like a summary of the comments on the Microsoft settlement only show 5 of the 47 released by the Justice Department in support of the settlement. Does this mean that Judge Kollar-Kotelly will rely on only these 47 to make her decision?" The comments that the DOJ describes as "major" are now published; the procedure the DOJ wants to follow for publishing all of the 30,000 comments received is contained in a court filing. (The Federal Register, if you don't know, is a dead-tree, daily publication of the doings of the U.S. Federal Government. The Department of Justice is arguing that there are simply too many comments to publish on paper, despite the legal requirement to do so.)

141 of 327 comments (clear)

  1. Next, Ashcroft will file suit on BEHALF of M$ by Artifice_Eternity · · Score: 4, Funny

    Read all about it at the link below...

    1. Re:Next, Ashcroft will file suit on BEHALF of M$ by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      It seemed legit until I actually read it. :)

      I liked the part about the "colors of evil".

      --
      It's been a long time.
  2. Slashdot for Government! by Dino · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The sheer amount of comments, interest in the case and outdated dead-tree publishing philosophy of the Federal Registar has got me thinking.

    Perhaps it is time for the Government to create, adopt or otherwise standadize a system to allow registered voters to discuss and debate on current issues and policies.

    Something like Slashdot, but the people who run the show would be our elected politicans instead of our current dictatorship :-)

    --
    That's not what I meant.
    1. Re:Slashdot for Government! by d-e-w · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, something like that would result in the same types of problems that arise from special interest groups and lobbyists--a vocal minority "seeming" like a majority. The loudmouths would strongly encourage the direction of government. In real life, right-wing conservatives already have this type of influence down cold.

      Also a major problem in all online communities I've participated in ... (vocal minorities, not right-wing conservatives ;)

    2. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Dino · · Score: 2

      In the Polotical-lobyist forum, it takes money and time to encourage the direction of government.

      On a discussion forum, the cost in money moves to zero and the people with the most time & people resources will be the "vocal minority."

      That is until someone creates the ultimate discussion-bot that analyzes and attacks every oppossing message methodically and quickly. Kind of like P.R. flaks but smarter and you don't have to pay them.

      --
      That's not what I meant.
    3. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      Thats the 2nd most retarded idea I have heard all day (the first was from my neighbour who said that if i put a penis in an ear, I will dance all night). Do you honestly think that such a system would work? Every household will not have a cable modem in the house, no matter what you or the Canadian government has said. Matter of fact, the Canadian government is doing nothing about the Rogers and Bell monopolies that are threatening to strangle the high speed market by imposing download limits. Wake up and get a life, hoser.

      Who is to say that it'll be a private company doing it? Crown corporations aren't a myth, you know, and could see the government starting one up to get it into every household.

      Maybe "every household" is a misnomer...How about every household that matters? Sure -- there are households without radios or telephones, but people that reclusive probably won't miss not being able to vote.

      Ideas are how innovation comes about -- I know in your little world others do the thinking for you, but the rest of us need to concieve and implememnt these things.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    4. Re:Slashdot for Government! by zerocool^ · · Score: 2

      Wait, hold up, dude. Today's Friday. On Fridays, we support the government, intellectual property, copyright laws, licensure of software, the MPAA for the great DVD releases they have, and the music industry for the great music they put out.

      Tuesday and Thursday, however, we are anti-establishment, we support the opening of all software, the bypass of all copyrights, we're anti- .NET software licencing, we hate the MPAA for Johansen/DeCSS, and screw the "copy protected CD's".

      read the slashdot bylaws before you post next time =)

      !z

      --
      sig?
    5. Re:Slashdot for Government! by madro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How about we give everyone (-1 extremist) mod points? Then the two sides can blow each other away, leaving the stuff in the middle for people to discuss further.

    6. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Mindwarp · · Score: 3, Funny

      I can see it now...

      "Frist Ps0t! I 0wNz j0o Ge0Rg3 \/\/!"

      --
      The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
    7. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Tackhead · · Score: 2
      > How about we give everyone (-1 extremist) mod points? Then the two sides can blow each other away, leaving the stuff in the middle for people to discuss further.

      /me mods this cool and practical idea as (-1, Extremist) ;-)

    8. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Alien54 · · Score: 2
      Which is what I said earlier, in a way.

      You actually had a decent chance of being included in the comment base if you took the time to actually write an intelligent thoughtful comment. Form letters were tossed as obvious attempts to flood the channel. It probably winds up being similar to the number of comments in any number of Slash articles, and reading everything above 0. 15,000 submittals that were not trolls, flamebait, etc, and which actually had some content is probably not that bad."

      probably better than here at slash. 47 comments that rated a 5+ - too bad their weren't any threads. "

      --
      "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    9. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      If you only put cable modems in houses then matter, then you are really really missing the point of a democracy.

      Give the people willing to talk a voice? I see no problem there.

      The best part is that the mere installation of media could allow this to happen. Install the cable for free, sell a device at a loss(we're talking a dollar or two here) which would allow for voting without a PC (just a yay/nay button and a screen for displaying the issues). In this case, the only people who aren't going to vote are the same ones who didn't want to pay for gas to get to a voting booth the social equivilant, and these same people wouldn't have a voice at all in a democratic republic.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    10. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 5, Funny

      Perhaps it is time for the Government to create, adopt or otherwise standadize a system to allow registered voters to discuss and debate on current issues and policies.

      Something like Slashdot, but the people who run the show would be our elected politicans instead of our current dictatorship :-)


      And on the floor of the US Senate:

      "Mr. President Pro Tem, I would like to point out that many of my constituents are 1337 h4xx0r5 and want the president to post his rear end in a "goatse.cx-ian" manner!

      --
      Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    11. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Tackhead · · Score: 2
      > There would be some hefty perks to owning the network citezens would be using to vote, such that hackers and false voters could be elimiated.

      You have a gift for understatement comparable to calling the Grand Canyon a "ditch".

      "It isn't who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes."
      - Various versions of which have been attributed to Lenin, Stalin, and historical references going back to American political cartoonist "Boss" Tweed in 1871.

    12. Re:Slashdot for Government! by ryusen · · Score: 2

      a vocal minority "seeming" like a majority
      isn't the already the case??

      --

      I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
    13. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      "It isn't who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes."
      - Various versions of which have been attributed to Lenin, Stalin, and historical references going back to American political cartoonist "Boss" Tweed in 1871.


      Perhaps I should elabourate: there would be some hefty perks to the government owning that network, such as the ones I mentioned. I sure as hell wouldn't allow some corporate bastards to be trusted to deliver my votes!

      --
      It's been a long time.
    14. Re:Slashdot for Government! by swillden · · Score: 2

      I sure as hell wouldn't allow some corporate bastards to be trusted to deliver my votes!

      Nahh, you'd allow some government bastards to be trusted to deliver your vote, which they highly appreciate since they're far better positioned to exploit control of the vote than any corporate bastards would be.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    15. Re:Slashdot for Government! by screwballicus · · Score: 2

      I suppose this would mean that each session of congress would thenceforth begin with a bunch of backbenchers yelling

      F1R5T P05T!!!!!

    16. Re:Slashdot for Government! by swillden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, this is not a good idea.

      The problem is that under this approach there's no way that the vote can be completely anonymous and uncoerced. It's possible you can secure the transmittal, storage and count of the votes (although as a professional security and cryptography expert, I would say that doing so is beyond our current capabilities), but how do you prevent a man from forcing his wife to vote for his candidate? For that matter, how do you prevent the local union from forcing all of their members to vote in a certain way. If there is any way for a voter to demonstrate conclusively who he or she voted for, there is a way to coerce that voter.

      Because of this, it is critical for the integrity of democracy for voting to be done in complete privacy. Somewhat counter-intuitively, this means that voting must be done in a public place, where everyone can see that only one person enters the polling booth at a time.

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    17. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      What would you suggest? If I can't trust the government to take my vote, then the only way I can make a difference in the world is to start shooting people who disagree with me.

      I think I'd rather vote, don't you?

      --
      It's been a long time.
    18. Re:Slashdot for Government! by swillden · · Score: 2
      Actually, the current system works pretty well. The reasons why are the openness and the many parties involved, all of whom watch each other (and few of whom are even part of the government, mostly they're civic-minded citizens). It's a key factor as well that recounts can be done by arbitrary third parties after the fact (e.g. the Florida Presidential election recounts done by the press) and many completely independent verifications are possible. Those after-the-fact verifications can't generally affect the outcome of the election, but they can point out systemic flaws. Again, as an example, Floridians are looking into better systems and will have one by the next elections.

      In environments where corruption is especially common (e.g. much of the Third World) outside, independent consultants, advisers and observers are also helpful.

      One of the many problems with nearly every electronic voting scheme is that there is no way (yet? ever? dunno...) to obtain the same level of openness and review while simultaneously guaranteeing anonymity. At bottom: shoving a piece of paper into a locked, guarded box overseen at every step by a group of people, some independent, some rabidly partisan (but from all sides) is a pretty darned good way to count votes.

      --
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    19. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      While I can see where you are coming from, I see that as just another problem to overcome.

      The reason I proposed this solution wasn't for convenience, it was because true democracy would be impractical in a public secret ballot.

      For security, I'm thinking that votes could be sent and tallied on the local network, with each port of the hub/lan being switched into send-only mode, so a single UDP packet could be sent to the destination with the results of any given vote(with information on what you're voting on sent before the input blackout). Somebody could tap the line, but then, somebody could also break into the ballot box.

      As for the problem of people being coherced into voting in a way they don't want to, I'm sure there's a solution to that as well. Perhaps it's a socialogical one, rather than a technological one ("Don't drink and drive -- and vote alone!"), or perhaps the solution is something as simple as a pair of sunglasses which are needed to read the LCD(do you recall that they did that with laptops?), and scramble the "yay" and "nay" buttons so only you can know what you're choosing. Others could wear their sunglasses, but that'd be as obvious as a person peering into a voting booth to see what you'll vote.

      This solution is quickly becoming complex and overengineered, so it may bnot be the best way to do what I want, but there must be a way to use technology to lead to a more democratic world. That's really my goal, and I think you'll agree it's a noble one.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    20. Re:Slashdot for Government! by swillden · · Score: 2

      While I can see where you are coming from, I see that as just another problem to overcome.

      Have you read the literature available? You should before you assume that the problems are soluble. There's lots available on the web, just google it.

      The reason I proposed this solution wasn't for convenience, it was because true democracy would be impractical in a public secret ballot.

      I understood that. There's also the question of whether or not true democracy is a good idea, but I'm a security engineer not a political scientist, so I won't go there. I will mention that democracy does not handle complex issues well. In fact, it's been proven (look up Arrow's Theorem) that voting cannot accomplish something as simple as a "fair" ranking of a list of options (for a list longer than two). Personally, I think representative democracy is the best system anyone has yet proposed, ugly as it is.

      Somebody could tap the line, but then, somebody could also break into the ballot box.

      Actually, breaking into the ballot box is really, really hard to do because it's constantly watched, by multiple people with conflicting interests. Any technical solution will have the problem of being more "opaque", simply because the votes aren't something people can see and touch. Keep in mind also, that it's actually not as important that the tally *be* accurate as it is that the tally be *believed* to be accurate. Keeping things in the world of paper and ink (or sticks, or rocks, or whatever) is a fundamentally good thing for voting systems.

      As for the problem of people being coherced into voting in a way they don't want to, I'm sure there's a solution to that as well. Perhaps it's a socialogical one, rather than a technological one ("Don't drink and drive -- and vote alone!"),

      Here's the scenario:

      You're a member of a union. The local union boss says that everyone has to vote for candidate X. You don't like candidate X, but you need to be a member of the union because you need your job. If you don't vote for X, you'll lose your job, and someone may even decide to break your kneecaps, beat your wife, etc. If you do vote for X, the union will give you a little something plus make sure you get included in the next round of raises. If you squeal, the union will close ranks and deny it *and* something bad will probably happen to you. The union is going to send a guy around to the house to watch you and your wife vote. If you refuse, they'll assume you voted "wrong". What do you do?

      This is not hypothetical. Such things did happen regularly and on a large scale in the U.S. as little as 80 years ago, but because polling was done in public places all it took to stop it was to have some unbribed officials standing around the polling place watching the goings-on. Just having someone from candidate Y's party standing in the polling place ready to blow the whistle was really all it took.

      there must be a way to use technology to lead to a more democratic world. That's really my goal, and I think you'll agree it's a noble one.

      Sure, but after spending a few years reading and thinking about on-line voting I just think it's nearly impossible to do. Technology can help lead to a more democratic world in other ways, however. I think the biggest thing it can do is to help spread literacy and education. Not nearly as cool, techie or glamorous as fancy cryptosystems or complex networks but much more effective. Touch-screen voting systems that print out a machine- and human-readable paper ballot could also be used to simplify voting and speed ballot counting. Still not very cool, though.

      Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who has had a lifelong fascination with cryptography, computers, networks and all of the cool things they can do, useful or not.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    21. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      I think the current system has proven that it doesn't work for meeting the wishes of the people. Every day we see another really stupid law which shouldn't have been passed, or a law which only affects a small portion of people who should have been a part of the decision making process(think DMCA -- did those old lawyers really have the credentials to be passing laws like that in the first place? They didn't understand them!). The important part of my idea, the part which so far has been shrouded in the technical faults of my plan, is to allow the people to make the choices, rather than a representative who is merely a "close enough" impression of our opinions. I think every person should have their individual opinions heard. It's been said that politics is about being "in between" left and right, but that center doesn't have a hive mind -- it's a flaw of a republic that assumes they do. Inside that moderate individual may lurk some incredibly left or right opinions, which aren't being represented. By taking the average, if you will, and letting the person who has the opinions most matching the average persons opinions to the point that the most people will vote for him, you lose the beauty of democracy, as the country becomes fascinated by a perpetual popularity contest and pissing match between the candidates, as is often seen in American politics, where the mere partesian nature of politics makes certain very important issues degrade into such contests as well.

      Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to improve such a scheme to the point where the common man can vote several times a day on issues which matter greatly to them. It must be as simple and convenient as pressing a button before the people who matter -- the people who live their lives for their own reasons, rather than for political power, embrace it. Otherwise, only people with a dangerously intense passion will embrace it, which would be dangerous indeed.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    22. Re:Slashdot for Government! by BluedemonX · · Score: 2

      The nice thing about voting in Canada is, the system is so bad anyway that the Liberals could run a decaying rat as PM and still be elected. And if for some reason some decent candidate did oppose King Jean, somehow strangely there'd be a packetflood of votes from somewhere bumping up the Liberal vote. They're just becoming more efficient. Before, they'd have to suddenly ram citizenship papers through for tons of people who would then be told if they don't vote Liberal, they're going home. Then the buses would be chartered to move em in to vote.
      So whether the rubber-stamp on King Jean ruling forever is done by paper vote or electronically - it makes no difference, via cable modem though that frees up Elections Canada from having to spend a bunch of money that'd otherwise end up buying a golf course off Chretien for a half a million, somewhere.

      --

      --- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
    23. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, you're probably right. true democracy is likely not a pheasable way to run a nation. I just tend to keep my mind on how we could improve such things so the world becomes a little more representitive of how we should do things. The thing is, I'm not willing to just give up and say "the system doesn't work...oh well, I tried.", because I think the system in place right now has allowed quite a few "very bad" things to happen, such as the DMCA.

      Also, I tend to agree that technology could help in other ways, but in the end, the newly educated end up feeling as trapped as I do; bad things happen in the world, and I'm powerless to stop them. When we're talking about a country based on allowing the people of that nation to make decisions, but it's all turning horribly wrong -- especially at a federal level.

      You won't find an arguement from me about the cool things these machines can do, it's why I got into computers. It's just that I also feel that I should try to use what I know to help the world, whether it be in a dramatic way, or something more subtle. I feel that those in power who betray their serfs(I know theres a word for this in the sense of a republic...) to corporations, who already have great power(more than they deserve by far) should not only be punished, but the power left in that vacuum should be distributed among many, to ensure it doesn't happen again.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    24. Re:Slashdot for Government! by swillden · · Score: 2

      Be careful what you wish for, lest you discover that it isn't really what you wanted.

      You're complaining about the dangers of a republic. Fair enough. Now look into the dangers of mob rule, a.k.a. pure democracy. Sure you can get an average opinion on every individual issue, but that actually results in a less coherent policy overall. For a very over-simplified example, who wants their taxes to be reduced? Okay, now who wants their government services to be increased? Foreign policy would be downright schizophrenic (in the U.S. it nearly is now with the frequent changes in government policy). In addition, you could probably get the electorate to make any decision you wanted if you gave it to them at the right time (think what kinds of things would have been approved on 9/12/01), and if you asked every question repeatedly the result would be policy that's a wildly varying function of time because the majority of people hold shallow, easily-influenced opinions on any given subject. And I'm not being elitist, there are any number of issues on which I don't have a firm opinion either, because I can't spend all of my time researching them. I have a family to support and children to raise.

      Some people have proposed pure democracy limited by various means to ensure that the voters have an understanding of a particular issue before they can vote, but that just turns control of the government over to whoever creates the tests that determine eligibility to vote on a subject.

      And all of this assumes that the technical problems are surmountable, which I don't believe is true.

      There are problems with the current system, but, IMO, they lie primarily in our implementation of representative democracy, rather than with the concept. If you want to work out a solution, I suggest you find a way to ensure that politicians cannot acquire either fame or fortune from their stint in office, returning us to the ideal of a "citizen statesman".

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    25. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      That would take a long, long time to figure out; how do you give a person the ability to represent his countrymen, and how do we limit the power to whats needed, while ensuring that the responsibility is being taken care of, and at the same time, remove those doing such a job from the spotlight? I think it'd take a reworking of our entire society, starting with some way of getting news into living rooms which couldn't be influenced by either government or media cartels(kind of like the weather channel :) ). Then, instead of focusing on the man, those agencies should be forced to focus on the decisions instead. A definite cure for the celebrity of politics. There should be a stop to smear campaigns and such, since the people shouldn't chare about the person, only his decision making abilities and beliefs.

      In the end, the question becomes "should the people really have any power?", and the answer becomes unclear. Perhaps a benevolent totalinarian or dictatorship government would be the best, but the consequences of allowing such a government control of a nation are staggering. Perhaps a more "corporate government" could work? Where people would hire the best people for the positions, thereby removing the people from the picture and choosing based on merit. That could be dangerous as well unless there was a direct and profound way the wishes of the people could be heard(just so the government can alter their plans accordingly)...

      The possiblities and illogic of the matter are making my head spin as it is, so I guess I'll just have to wait until I can afford to buy my own nation "sj0ia", where the government is non-totalinarian non-industralist democratic communism(ie. everyone shares everything, has a job, but every important decision which falls outside the bounds of regular decisions (which could be made by a person elected by the people to handle day-to-day operations, but nothing more) is made by the population of the small island of sj0ia).

      That's right, I ran out of ideas. Once again the system ends up being the best of a lot of bottom-of-the-barrel ideas. Damn.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    26. Re:Slashdot for Government! by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      Preston Manning would have had a chance if those idiots in the canadian alliance hadn't voted in Stockwell Day. They singlehandedly lost the election by voting that idiot as leader(I see Day as the canadian version of GWB -- he's a charasmatic idiot, but he's still an idiot!).

      The Liberals are pretty well entrenched, but can you blame the canadian people? Jean Cretien and the liberal government have made significant gains since Brian Mulroney left office, and I have a feeling a lot of people enjoy the stability which having a relatively predictable government brings.

      As for your claims that they are cheating, I'm sure they are -- that's what politics is all about, but when we're talking about millions of people voting liberal in Canada, more people voting liberal than any other party, it becomes fairly obvious that even if they did cheat, they still won by a landslide, and likely would have otherwise.

      Besides. What would I do with all my Jean Cretien jokes if somebody else got elected? :)

      --
      It's been a long time.
    27. Re:Slashdot for Government! by BluedemonX · · Score: 2

      RE: Preston Manning would have had a chance if those idiots in the canadian alliance hadn't voted in Stockwell Day.

      That was a special interest group hijacking the election process - just like "Enza" tried to do again.

      RE: They singlehandedly lost the election by voting that idiot as leader(I see Day as the canadian version of GWB -- he's a charasmatic idiot, but he's still an idiot!).

      Well again, most Canadians don't care about brains, just looks. So they figured they'd get their own version of Jean Chretien.

      RE: The Liberals are pretty well entrenched, but can you blame the canadian people?

      Yes, yes I can.

      RE: Jean Cretien and the liberal government have made significant gains since Brian Mulroney left office,

      Oh, this should be good. Such as?

      RE: and I have a feeling a lot of people enjoy the stability which having a relatively predictable government brings.

      Taxes higher, dollar lower, income lower... jobs down... yeah, that's great

      RE: As for your claims that they are cheating, I'm sure they are -- that's what politics is all about, but when we're talking about millions of people voting liberal in Canada, more people voting liberal than any other party, it becomes fairly obvious that even if they did cheat, they still won by a landslide, and likely would have otherwise.

      That's why I'm applying for a Green Card.

      --

      --- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
  3. Probably won't matter by PowerTroll+5000 · · Score: 2

    Does this mean that Judge Kollar-Kotelly will rely on only these 47 to make her decision?

    It might help sway her against the settlement, but a two-thirds majority overall is a fairly strong case for vacating the settlement.

    Any way you crack it, the public has shown that the settlement was inappropriate given the charges.

    --

    I'm not afraid of falling, it's the sudden stop at the end that frightens me.

    1. Re:Probably won't matter by Gaijin42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your logic would be true, if the comments were a random sampling of all the people involved (in this case, all computer professionals, or consumers - in other words, almost every educated adult in the country).

      However, since comments were voluntary, and there is a considerable amount of emotion in the arena, the sample is guaranteed not to be random.

      It could be that MS tried to form a grassroots campaign (In fact, this did happen)

      It could be that Sun and Oracle and Netscape tried to form a grassroots campaign, along with slashdot and the OSS movement (In fact, this did happen)

      One side having more people who could write a convincing argument doesnn't have a big effect. You have no idea in what proportions the original 30000 messages were. It could be 30000-46 messages that said "Microsoft should be let off the hook" and 46 messages that went into detail as to other methods.

      Further, the popular opinion doesn't (or shouldn't) rule, the actual facts in the case should.

      Note, I am not saying that MS is in the right, or that they are in the wrong, just that your argument doesn't work out the way you want it to.

    2. Re:Probably won't matter by Sj0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      uh...the orignal results were posted to slashdot as well. something like 15000 to 7000.

      Here's the post on Slashdot.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    3. Re:Probably won't matter by maxpublic · · Score: 2, Informative

      The actual facts resulted in a criminal conviction of Microsoft. Popular opinion won't rule, a single judge will - the precise opposite of democratic mob justice. The opinions are meant only as a sample of public thought on the matter, with no requirement for statistical accuracy.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    4. Re:Probably won't matter by Gaijin42 · · Score: 2

      You are quite correct. I was responding to my parent's comment about if the judge should follow the opinions presented in the comments. And the answer is no.

      However, if the opinions are meant to be a sample, should they not be somewhat representative of the population they are drawn from?

    5. Re:Probably won't matter by ryusen · · Score: 2

      the odds were like 2-1 when you filtered out the ones that actually mentioned stuff about the case. although i'd be intrested in seeing the one rumoured porn post...
      the simple fact that the judge wanted any letters that didn't have good detail and arguments about the case or appeared to be form letters should eliminate alot of the astroturfing... of course this just leaves "expert opinion" type letters left (which have their own biases)

      --

      I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
    6. Re:Probably won't matter by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 2
      You have no idea in what proportions the original 30000 messages were.

      The article says that the proportion was about 2:1 against the settlement. I.E., a two-thirds majority against. Didn't you read it?

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    7. Re:Probably won't matter by Artagel · · Score: 2

      To the extent that the comments are persuasive because of their content they matter. Remember that Judge Jackson was motivated, despite the parties, to look into a three-way breakup.

      Judges are trained to decide based on right/wrong arguments, not what is popular. The Judges are their precisely to make sure that the political branches, that operate off popularity, stay between the lines. They are supposed to be independent, and counting the comments as votes is not independence.

    8. Re:Probably won't matter by GreyPoopon · · Score: 2

      I think we went through all of this on the last time, but I agree that if the opinions were meant to be a sample, they should be made statistically sound. I remember raising the question of qualitative verses quantitative analysis. My guess is that the 47 selected responses are probably the most strong arguments from either side. It is most likely true that the judge will perform a quantitative analysis to see if there are compelling reasons for either vacating or upholding the settlement. We have to trust her to make a decision based not on the opinions themselves or the statistics, but rather on facts or ideas gleaned from those opinions. You'll know whether or not she did her job when she summarizes her decision. Most judges include their line of reasoning with a summary for use in appeals and precendent.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    9. Re:Probably won't matter by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      Okay...I did *not* deserve a +1 informative on that. I hope somebody can mod that as overrated. It's just some text and a damn link! check it out; not that hard! This is the message in the link

      don't mod me up for mere links in the future. I was just showing the poster of the parent message something because he mentioned that the original number of letters to the government is ambiguous when you read the top. If you must, mod me up for informative, insightful, funny, underrated ( :-) ) social and technical commentary.

      --
      It's been a long time.
  4. Common Sense by Telastyn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All the DoJ is saying is that 90%+ of the comments were via email, if they can recieve comments via an electronic medium, why can they not re-publish them via the same electronic medium?

    1. Re:Common Sense by caferace · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Well, This is just a guess... I speculate that there may be a requirement that electronic-only publishing may be illegal, or at the least would set an "unhealthy precedent". Sure, you and I have computers. So does over half of the population of the U.S. That leaves a lot of people however who don't have access to the medium, thereby depriving them of important governmental information. So, I imagine that anything they "publish" also has to be in dead-tree print.

      Of course, this is all just conjecture. I could be dead wrong.

    2. Re:Common Sense by Amarok.Org · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because that's not what the the law says to do. The issue needs not to be "We don't want to follow the law because it costs too much and we shouldn't have to", but "We think this law in it's present form is not in the best interest of the American people, so let's start the ball rolling to change it."

      IANAL, but it shouldn't take much more than a federal judge issuing an order allowing the DELAY of publication while the legal issues of the method is resolved.

      --
      -- "Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
    3. Re:Common Sense by Amarok.Org · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Sure, you and I have computers. So does over half of the population of the U.S. That leaves a lot of people however who don't have access to the medium, thereby depriving them of important governmental information. So, I imagine that anything they "publish" also has to be in dead-tree print.

      But is the government going to send these huge paper copies out to these computerless individuals? No, of course not. These documents will be available for review in public places - courthouses, public libraries, etc. Since these facilities already have computers (mostly, anyway) persons unable to view the CDROMs would only have to pop down to their local public library and browse the ones provided to them there. It's the same trip they'd have made for the paper copies, too.

      --
      -- "Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
    4. Re:Common Sense by sphealey · · Score: 2
      But is the government going to send these huge paper copies out to these computerless individuals? No, of course not. These documents will be available for review in public places - courthouses, public libraries, etc.
      Very true, but federal documents pretty much back to the Jamestown settlement are available at the library. What are the odds that whatever CD-ROM format you pick to use today will be readable in 2302? We can be pretty sure that paper will still be readable then, since it has already been proved [1].

      sPh

      [1] Yes, I know the Federal Register is printed on high-acid toilet paper. I am assuming they print one good copy on rag bond. I could be wrong about that.

    5. Re:Common Sense by Telastyn · · Score: 2

      Of course, though I am unfamiliar with the exact wording of the law. They might be able to say that they cannot accept any comments which are not in dead tree form/sent via USPS as they are not within the scope of the law.

      I expect that the courts will respond in kind: "You must publish the results, as the law requires you to; but We recommend the law be changed."

    6. Re:Common Sense by MindStalker · · Score: 2, Informative

      The law states clearly that all comments are supposed to be printed in the federal register this would cost millions, and would take multiple volumes, and would be very difficult to scan through. Instead they simply are going to print the major comments, and they will at a later date, publish on the internet, all comments. While the law states otherwise the judge can rule that they can follow this plan, and doing such does have presidence. In the AT&T case, because of the cost of publishing all comments in the fed register they just published the main onces, and published all the comments in just enough volumes so that each court house could have one, that was publically accessable to read. They could do that, but with the internet, why should they.

    7. Re:Common Sense by Rimbo · · Score: 2

      That's basically what they'll say.

      The law and common sense typically have nothing to do with each other.

      A while back, I worked for a defense contractor, and we were given a lecture about import/export restrictions (ITAR). The message was the following: Ask the in-house expert about anything.

      They went to great lengths to explain, "If you don't know exactly what the precise wording and meaning of the law to your exact situation is, you should ask." And most importantly, NEVER ASSUME THAT WHAT MAKES SENSE IS WHAT THE LAW SAYS. The law is not written according to common sense.

      He was right, of course. Laws do not make sense, common or otherwise. Fortunately, we can see to it that they're changed. Unfortunately, we have to get a majority to agree to change it first. :)

  5. Saving public money by marnanel · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So it'll save $4m not to publish these in the Federal Register? It's good to see officials looking to save public money like that. But I wonder, if it's seen to be sufficient in this case to publish only the index in dead-tree form and to supply the full texts online and on CD-ROMs, whether a precedent will be set for the comments on all such cases to be published in this way. The consequent savings would presumably be non-trivial.

    --
    GROGGS: alive and well and living in
    1. Re:Saving public money by Brendan+Byrd · · Score: 2

      Hey, at least there's a crackdown on it. That's more than I can say about most of our other sources of government waste.

  6. Nice by EisPick · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It appears that one of the five representative comments in favor of the settlement is from Ayn Rand whackos.

    1. Re:Nice by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 2

      One of the comments against the settlement is from the KDE League. It's nice to see that the KDE League is actually doing something.

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    2. Re:Nice by markhb · · Score: 2
      Actually, they appear to be opposed to the settlement... they would prefer to see the case dropped entirely:

      Accordingly, we reject the notion that this settlement serves the public interest, or that any punishment of Microsoft for its business practices will be of benefit to any consumer. Eroding Microsoft's property rights serves no one. We hold that no antitrust case, including the Microsoft case can withstand rational scrutiny, and we ask that no sanction be placed on Microsoft as a result of its antitrust conviction.
      --
      Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
    3. Re:Nice by EMIce · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but they also oppose *any* settlement. They feel (not think - their claims of ultra-rationality have grown from ideas based on feelings, not derived rationally) that Microsoft should be allowed to continue unpunished, because the ideal way to live is in a free, unregulated market. Their ideas are no more rational than the revolutionary socialist/communinist thinkers. They are whackos like the original poster stated, I don't know who modded him down - has has a point.

    4. Re:Nice by Dr.+Awktagon · · Score: 2

      No kidding, it's hard to believe whoever wrote that has a PhD in anything. For instance:

      Fiction #1: Microsoft is a "monopoly." There is no such thing as a private monopoly. Only the government can forcibly prevent competitors from entering a market.

      I guess the Government-enforced copyright monopoly doesn't count? And in my economics classes, I learned that a monopoly is a company with concentrated market power, which may or may not be harmful to society. Any RATIONAL thinker would agree: of course Microsoft is a monopoly in the PC operating systems market, their product is used on a vast majority of PCs. A is A., and Microsoft is a Monopoly.

      This economic power, the power of voluntary trade, is fundamentally different from political power, the power of the gun.

      To quote George Will (was it George Will?) Capitalism is a government program. Let's say hardware Company X decides they don't like to pay microsoft for machines that don't have Windows installed. IE, they break their contract and sell their own machines without Windows, but don't pay Microsoft. Guess what types of weapons will be carried when their headquarters are raided after Microsoft sues them for breach of contract? That's right! Guns! Or maybe the company should just blow up their unsold PCs, Howard Roark style.

      Ayn Rand took the valid and noble concept of rational self-interest and turned it into a sophomoric caricature, an unrealistic and simplified viewpoint that applies to everything yet is completely irrelevant here in the "real world".

      Kindof like how this post has nothing to do with Microsoft, oops..whatever..

    5. Re:Nice by VAXman · · Score: 2

      I guess the Government-enforced copyright monopoly doesn't count?

      The only monopoly granted to Microsoft by means of copyright law is the monopoly on Windows. It's not much different from the monpoly that the trademark office has granted to Kraft for Philadelphia Cream Cheese. But neither is a monopoly, because you can get other operating systems, or other cream cheeses.

    6. Re:Nice by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

      This whole issue isn't black and white from the "Ayn Rand whacko" perspective.

      Then you're not an Ayn Rand wacko. :P

      P.S. I agree with some aspects of libertarianism. My major complaint with Ayn Rand isn't political -- it's that, from a literary standpoint, The Fountainhead was the worst book I've ever read. :)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    7. Re:Nice by AntiNorm · · Score: 2

      At this juncture I would like to disclose that, from the time of commencement of this case until approximately June 1999, I was employed as an attorney by counsel for the defendant in this matter. However, I was exclusively involved in representing other clients in unrelated matters. I never performed any legal services for the defendant, nor was I ever exposed to any non-public information about the defendant, whether relating to this litigation or otherwise

      Can you say "conflict of interest"?

      --

      I pledge allegiance to the flag...
      of the Corporate States of America...
  7. Not surprising, really... by mystery_bowler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fact that a majority of the opinions are against the settlement is really a testament to common sense.

    I don't want to make myself out to be a MS-basher. That would be hypocritical, since I use MS products in my job as a programmer and at home (mostly for gaming). But even someone who is adamantly pro-MS would have to acknowledge MS's unfair use of it's size and power to not just compete with others in MS's markets, but to crush them.

    I used to argue that MS hasn't done anything any other company hasn't done or wanted to do. With the exception that no other company has been in quite a parallel set of circumstances, I still more or less believe that. But MS has become so large and powerful that the decisions those in power make do indeed hinder competition. When MS decides to "embrace and extend" something (like, say, a communication protocol), sure, it protects their business - which is a basic drive of all businesses. But that kind of manuveur by MS just hurts the industry as a whole as manufacturers scramble to make MS-compliant hardware and software developers scramble to implement MS-compatible solutions. And we all do the same dance again when MS Protocol X is revised with (typically buggy) version N.0

    It's good to see that the people who aren't agreeing with the settlement are excersizing basic business logic.

    --

    My sigs always suck.
    1. Re:Not surprising, really... by RazzleFrog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that a majority of the opinions are against the settlement is really a testament to common sense.

      Actually it is not. It is a testament to the fact that people are much more likely to complain than they are to compliment. Ask the manager at your local grocery store or a restaurant owner which they get more of.

      The fact is that a lot (not all mind you) of the respondents are either companies that have a vested interest in the destruction of Microsoft (AOL, Oracle, Sun, etc.) or anti-Microsoft zealots. I think that if you polled the whole country you would find a lot more Microsoft sympathizers than these comments would indicate.

      I am not saying I am one of those so please don't flame me.

    2. Re:Not surprising, really... by the_rev_matt · · Score: 2
      Actually, that's not entirely accurate. 30,000 comments were submitted, and reportedly went 2:1 against Microsoft. They've only published
      • substantive
      comments (non-form letters, legal filings, etc). The rest (with the probable exception of the porn) will be published on CD or available for download.
      --
      this is getting old and so are you

      blog

    3. Re:Not surprising, really... by ryusen · · Score: 2

      i partially agree with you, but i would say that most people who did not respond, either are ignorant of the case in general or don't care enough about it to make a post (apathy runs strong in this day)
      on the overall whole, i think, the judge should look at the arguments involved as to WHY, rather than just the stastitical value of the numbers when she forms her opinions time to pull out the BS-Meter

      --

      I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
    4. Re:Not surprising, really... by legLess · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Quoth the poster:
      I think that if you polled the whole country you would find a lot more Microsoft sympathizers than these comments would indicate.
      Indubitably. You'd also find that most of these people can't tell you the difference between a CPU and a case, or an operating system and a PC. The fact that they're Microsoft sympathizers (boy, that's got an evil ring, doesn't it?) is a testament to Microsoft's PR firm and nothing else.

      Not to sound elitist, but the vast majority of people in this country aren't qualified to have an opinion on the settlement. Anyone with a 'net connection could change that for themselves with a couple hours research, but we know how unlikely that is.

      The fact is that a lot (not all mind you) of the respondents are either companies that have a vested interest in the destruction of Microsoft (AOL, Oracle, Sun, etc.) or anti-Microsoft zealots.
      First, this is wanton speculation on your part, since the comments haven't even been published; I bet you haven't even read the ones in the link (neither have I).

      Second, these companies and "zealots" do not have a vested interest in the destruction of Microsoft. Could you even imagine the utter chaos that would insue if Microsoft were to cease to exist? AOL would tank, for one. What these folks do have a vested interest in is a market economy free from the ravaging predation of Microsoft.

      What they (and I) are asking for is simple: (a) enforce the laws on the books and (b) try to restore competition. If they'd done it 5 years ago it would have been easier; 5 years from now it'll be harder still.
      --
      This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
    5. Re:Not surprising, really... by namespan · · Score: 3, Informative

      The fact is that a lot (not all mind you) of the respondents are either companies that have a vested interest in the destruction of Microsoft

      Let's reword that a little: most everyone in the software and IT industry has a vested interest in the destruction of Microsoft. A fair number of consumers do too. We have a lot to gain from a market where one player is powerful enough to consistently tip things to their own advantage, whether their solutions are superior or not.

      But I'm still not sure my rewording is precise enough, so I'll try again: most everyone in the software and IT industry has a vested interest in a Microsoft that obeys the laws they've been convicted of violating, and seeing true restorative measures come about, rather than the perhaps-well-meaning-but-leaks-like-a-legal-sieve proposed "settlement". This doesn't have to include the destruction of Microsoft -- just some precise measures with real teeth. That's what most of us want.

      --
      Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
    6. Re:Not surprising, really... by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not to sound elitist, but the vast majority of people in this country aren't qualified to have an opinion on the settlement.

      Not to sound elitist, but the vast majority of posters on slashdot aren't qualified to have an opinion on the settlement. Are you a lawyer? Are you qualified to comment on the law in this case? Just because Microsoft wasn't shattered into a million tiny pieces does not mean the law as not followed. Your rhetoric indicates your position, but don't confuse your opinion with law.

    7. Re:Not surprising, really... by Dave_bsr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      most people don't have any clue what has gone on or what microsoft has done that might be bad. most don't even know that the company that makes their OS on their computer is being sued and prosecuted.

      Joe Slashdotter knows quite a few things MS has done wrong. they are on average, technically and politically literate, and mebe they know that there are alternatives, besides Apple. Thus, they are qualified to discuss and hold opinions about the MS cases. you don't need to be a lawyer to hold an opinion. you need to know something.

      --


      Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
    8. Re:Not surprising, really... by legLess · · Score: 2
      Well, you've set up a nice little straw man and killed it convincingly, but your comment doesn't address a single thing I said, or counter any part of my post.

      Just because Microsoft wasn't shattered into a million tiny pieces does not mean the law as not followed. Your rhetoric indicates your position, but don't confuse your opinion with law.
      Interesting, given that I didn't state my position, and since I really haven't made up my own mind yet.

      Congratulations on getting a couple karma points, though. Pretty good troll :)
      --
      This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
    9. Re:Not surprising, really... by krogoth · · Score: 2

      Are you a lawyer? Are you qualified to comment on the law in this case?

      So, you actually want lawyers making all the decision on this? Should they decide if IE really can't be removed from Windows, just to give one example?

      --

      They that quote Benjamin Franklin on liberty and safety deserve neither.
    10. Re:Not surprising, really... by Sarcasmooo! · · Score: 2

      I think you're right, but I don't think that would really apply here. People would complain directly to Microsoft just as they would complain directly to the grocery store. And the point you made is also true, only because it takes a negative experience to inspire someone to go to the trouble of complaining. Here, the comment system is obscure to most people, but I actually think that since it comes from the government it is more likely to spur supportive comments from the droves of MS employees who are much more attuned to what's at stake.

    11. Re:Not surprising, really... by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

      The Federalist Papers discuss just how stupid the public is expected to be. Part of the design of the US governmentmal system comes from protecting the smart minority from the stupid majority. The Electoral College system for electing the President is one example (good or bad) of this design effort.

      While I'm on the subject, think about the word "design", above. It was pointed out to me that the US government really was designed intellectually, unlike most governments before it. That makes me pause every time.

      -Paul Komarek

  8. Too bad for Catavault by hey · · Score: 2, Interesting
    "Given that Microsoft's .Net Passport is the heart of Windows XP, Microsoft's new Operating System that was officially launched on October 25, 2001, Catavault, a software company addressing online identification and authentication, unfortunately finds itself in the cross-hairs of the most powerful software company in the world."

    from: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/major/mtc -00033650.htm

    Too bad guys, you're gonna die. Not the first and not the last.

  9. I know why... by Em+Emalb · · Score: 3, Funny

    "The Department of Justice is arguing that there are simply too many comments to publish on paper, despite the legal requirement to do so.)"

    Naah, the real reason is who wants to see a printed version of the goat sex dude 600 times?

    Although, what ever floats your boat :)

    --
    Sent from your iPad.
  10. being a kde fan... by 7-Vodka · · Score: 4, Informative
    wow, I enjoyed reading the response from the KDE league Inc. It seemed more relevant to me than the other responses, was brief and has a nifty introduction to KDE.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/major/mtc -00028788.htm

    --

    Liberty.

    1. Re:being a kde fan... by ScumBiker · · Score: 2

      Cool. I checked on what the DOJ is running their webserver on, check it out:

      www.usdoj.gov.

      Netscape on Solaris. Quite nice, thank you. I'm very happy to see they're not running IIS on Win2k...

      --
      --- Think of it as evolution in action ---
    2. Re:being a kde fan... by Karma+Sucks · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hey Phillip.

      The proposal is a full 22 page document and goes way beyond a KDE introduction. Look a little closer, maybe.

      --
      (Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
    3. Re:being a kde fan... by William+Tanksley · · Score: 2

      I'm gonna use my +1 bonus to retract my previous post. Thanks for pointing out what I missed, guys. The KDE ad was cool, but it went on to actually talk about useful stuff.

      I hope the judge pays more attention than I did. :-)

      -Billy

  11. Too much paper? by ehiris · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'll be offering them free space on my server so that they can publish it there.

    There more data going over the internet in an hour then there's data contained in the library of congress.

    What's 30000 comments? My PDA can probably hold that.

  12. Canadian government fulfilling its obligations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Granted this is a couple orders of magnitude smaller in scale, but the Canadian government published all the more than 700 "Canadian DMCA" comments it got, even the one from The Edifying Fellowship of Ook.

  13. Frontpage by ehiris · · Score: 3, Funny

    You can't post anti MS comments by using MS FrontPage to publish.

    Hopefully the DOJ doesn't use FrontPage to publish.

  14. Interesting. by lurking · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They did take into account comments from non-US citizens. Paul Johnson is from Britain.

  15. Re:Let's See... by spectecjr · · Score: 2

    Just how much "justice" M$ has bought...

    I'd guess about 80% less than the silicon valley cartels have bought.

    Simon

    --
    Coming soon - pyrogyra
  16. Settlement already decided... by sphealey · · Score: 2
    Is there anyone out there who doesn't think that the settlement has already been decided? The only thing that is going on now is that it is being packaged to minimize outcry and the possibility of a challenge. But the deed is done...

    sPh

    1. Re:Settlement already decided... by MAXOMENOS · · Score: 2

      There are several comments on the Microsoft settlement to the effect that there's been undisclosed ex-parte communications going on between MS and DOJ, in violation of the Tunney act. So maybe your paranoia isn't so outlandish, after all.

  17. Sony's reply by Telastyn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I found it slightly amusing that Sony's reply descented due to the "common licensing" provision. Basically they wanted to make sure their preferential licensing, and their ability to extend *their* monopolistic tendancies was not affected by the ruling...

  18. Lack of RMS, and ESR and AC!!! by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2

    I assume what they wrote did not make the final cut, but judging from what I read, most of the comments from people were of an equal caliber of what these gentlemen write.

    I was happy to see all those compelling arguments.
    the Judge is going to have a very hard time.

    I was unhappy however to see certain groups coming out for MS.....I know the ACT is an MS group so I was not suprised, but I did not know that compTIA was pro MS.

    I also was not excited to see a comment about how the turrney act is for the good of the consumer and not the good of the competitor, especialy since so many MS competitors wrote in.

    well, we shall see I guess

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    1. Re:Lack of RMS, and ESR and AC!!! by Spoing · · Score: 2
      ...but I did not know that compTIA was pro MS

      That surprised me too, since they do have the Linux+ and other non-MS specific exams.

      It's a shame that they have some of my money from previous certifications. From now on, though, they are on my _hit list and won't get a dime or a positive comment.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  19. Ha! by clark625 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Anyone else find it rather odd that supporting opinions from the Associate for Competative Technology and the Center for the Moral Defense of Capitalism? Maybe not. But then they also were both formed in 1998. Call that a coincidence. Also, the Computing Technology Industry Association was formed in 2000 (as far as I can tell).

    I didn't bother searching for the other two opinions for the settlement. Here's hoping that the judge can read between the lines here. Lord knows I can't figure out just who is the main contributer to these organizations.

    --
    Long, cute, or funny Sigs are just another form of over compensation, used by geeks, nerdz, etc.
    1. Re:Ha! by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 2

      ACT is well known to be an MS front, I believe the CMDC is as well.

      --
      Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    2. Re:Ha! by Spoing · · Score: 2
      CompTIA is actually a testing and certification company. They promote A+, Network+, and even Linux+ certs.

      Yes, they have some of my money.

      No, they won't get a dime more.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    3. Re:Ha! by Znork · · Score: 2

      Nah, the CMDC are Ayn Rand inspired Objectivists. They have a weak grasp on reality.

  20. Re:Evil bastards by Dr.Dubious+DDQ · · Score: 2
    I just seen an advert for Microsoft visual studio .net on SLASHDOT!

    Sounds like a conspiracy to me - Linux Today has been running advertisements for Windows XP for a couple of weeks now, as well, and of course, months ago "Linux" magazine got a lot of grief for running Microsoft advertisements...

    They're everywhere! Everywhere, I tell you! I was wondering why the black helicopters flying overhead had the colorful MSN logo painted on them lately...

  21. What it means (I think) by Lumpish+Scholar · · Score: 4, Informative
    Does this mean that Judge Kollar-Kotelly will rely on only these 47 to make her decision?
    No, it means that posting the first 47 "major" (their word) comments is a significant step, and that they've taken it already. There are 15,000 "serious" (my word) anti-Microsoft comments (including mine), and 7,500 "serious" pro-Microsoft comments.

    "Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly ... said she planned to read the comments before deciding." I think that means all the comments; though she may "read" them by passing many to her clerks.

    If I understand this correctly, the DOJ still intends to post all 47 + 15,000 + 7,500 comments on the Web, and publish them on CD, and index them in the dead tree Federal Register. (They're clever enough not to publish e-mail addresses, to the disappointment of spammers everywhere.)
    --
    Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
  22. WHY OH WHY??? by Em+Emalb · · Score: 2

    Why does everything have to be so damned complicated? The lawyer speak is definitely tremendous in these proceedings. I actually tried to read a few of them...mainly Novell's and Redhat's, but I couldn't because it was so watered down that I couldn't see into the underlying message of Bill is devil, Microsoft is hell, and we are tired of burning!

    Man, could you imagine what it would have been like if these responses were written using common everyday english?

    I can dream I guess....

    --
    Sent from your iPad.
  23. Zz zzz zz z z z z z by ch-chuck · · Score: 2

    Gee, all this $$$ for lawyers goes on forever while they decide whether to slap them or the wrist with a wet noodle or sentence them 20 hail mary's.

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
  24. Interesting reading.... by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    I just read most of the letters that are on the webaise... Granted I only read the first few paragraphs or skimmed them to get the jist.. either yay or nay. It's interesting on what they selected as the most important or convincing. You can obviously see who is in microsoft's back pocket, who would boring as hell at a party (I.E a lawyer anyways) and who is actually insightful.

    Every letter that is in normal english, isn't trying to be superior or twist the english language into a mess of convolution is an excellent insight into what the public pulse is on this issue. Every letter that looks like a legal draft or you need a 4th year degree in law or political science should be thrown out and burned.

    Kudos to those that chose to be honest and framk with the court and didnt try to tell the court what they already knew... (Cripes one letter went over the entire trial and findings and probably included what the judges and lawyers ate for lunch.)

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  25. Sony's response interesting by Acoustic_Nowhere · · Score: 2, Interesting
    One of the proposed MS settlements was that Microsoft would have "uniform terms and conditions" for licensing.

    Sony argues that in the past, they have added language which would strengthen their claim to it's intellectual property.

    Now that Microsoft is renegotiating with Sony, MS claims that in order to be compliant with the settlement, they cannot accept Sony's modifications of the license. -which only strengthens Microsoft's ability to extend it's monopoly.

    and here I thought that was one of the safest proposals of the settlement!!

  26. KDE League -- Protecting global competition by jACL · · Score: 2, Insightful

    An interesting assertion in the KDE League comment: US Antitrust law protects international parties from local business if it harms the American Consumer. If this is the case, shouldn't international parties have been given the right to comment?

    "In addition, many Open Source developers live in other countries, making it extremely difficult for them to obtain any redress through the courts. (Here it is important to bear in mind that while these developers live in other countries, their software is freely available to American consumers, and hence any harm visited upon these international developers results in direct harm to the American consumers which the Antitrust Laws are designed to protect.)"

    --
    "It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
  27. Re:s/for/the/ (Re:Slashdot for Government!) by b_pretender · · Score: 2
    It worked fine for more.


    It's fun to read some of the pro-MS propoganda^H^H^H^H comments. For example:

    COMMENTS OF THE ASSOCIATION FOR COMPETITIVE TECHNOLOGY refering to the settlement: ...However, it is carefully crafted to ensure that Windows will remain available to consumers as a reliable operating platform.

    Hmmm. I thought the court case was to prevent Microsoft from engaging in anticompetitive practices. I didn't think that keeping windows as a reliable operating platform was part of the court case. If anything, allowing for some competition *WOULD* make Windows into a reliable operating platform.

  28. Sad... by Sj0 · · Score: 2

    I've read some of the letters, and it's sort of sad to be reminded of all the companies which Microsoft has unfairly crushed OS/2, BeOS, DR-Dos and others, have all fallen, regardless of user support or quality, and the festering, rotting corpses of these products and in many cases, the companies which created them, are a macabre reminder of why Microsoft must be stopped.

    ...

    ...Like I said. Sad.

    --
    It's been a long time.
    1. Re:Sad... by Osty · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've read some of the letters, and it's sort of sad to be reminded of all the companies which Microsoft has unfairly crushed OS/2, BeOS, DR-Dos and others, have all fallen, regardless of user support or quality, and the festering, rotting corpses of these products and in many cases, the companies which created them, are a macabre reminder of why Microsoft must be stopped.

      Hrm, let's see.

      • OS/2. IBM had absolutely no clue what to do with this operating system. It "died" (even though it's still in use today) because IBM was incompetent.
      • BeOS. No apps, poor hardware support, and a confused vision killed this OS. It's commonly accepted that one of the main reasons Be started up was to eventually provide Apple the next OS for the Macintosh. This didn't happen, since Apple opted to go with Jobs' NeXT instead. Shortly afterwards, Be was more or less forced into the x86 market, where they had no real vision. Spend millions of dollars researching and developing an OS for a very small niche market (media editing and development, basically) that had no compelling reason(*cough*Adobe products*cough*) to switch operating systems? Not a very viable business plan. Be really should've taken a page out of Microsoft's book, if they wanted to survive. Their whole philosophy was that they would only provide simple or trivial applications with the OS to encourage third-party developers, yet third-party developers won't really flock to an OS unless there are users, and the users won't come without applications. That means that Be needed to write some better applications. At the very least, they should've focused on making a much better browser than Net+.
      • DR-DOS. It's DOS. DOS is dead. Next. Oh, you're referring to the whole win3.x thing not liking to run on top of DR-DOS. Well, that's been covered by many other comments besides mine, so there's little point in discussing it again. Suffice it to say, the problem was only in a beta of win3.x, and not in the final version. But I guess beta Microsoft software can kill competitors, right? Right?

      You paint a pretty picture, but try stepping back into the real world for a moment. Be is gone because it was a one-horse company. They bet it all on their OS, then later on their Internet Appliance stuff. Neither panned out, they're gone. DEC had much more than DR-DOS, and the death of DOS isn't what killed DEC in the end anyway. And Caldera (the current owner of DR-DOS) picked it up too late to make a difference. If anything, the only thing that hurt them in the whole situation was buying DR-DOS in the first place. But IBM is still around. They're huge. OS/2 is still in use, but overall I think IBM is happier being out of the desktop OS market.

      Microsoft didn't "crush" any of these. They all lost on their own merits, or because the companies behind the products screwed up on their own. Conspiracy theories can be fun, but sometimes you have to come up for air and live in the real world for a while.

    2. Re:Sad... by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      Don't bother trying to tell me why all these failed, it's kind of arrogant. Microsoft makes more mistakes than any of these companies did, and they're still around. Thinking that somehow making any mistake is grounds for destruction is foolish. Even in the cutthroat business world, a company with a good product which people are willing to back should be enough to allow a product to survive. In the current climate, if you aren't set to become the next monopoly, your product will die and people will spend their time telling the believers why their OS failed.

      PS. BeOS still had a real focus. a "vision" if you will. Everybody who used it, and everybody who loved it knew it. It was, bar none, the best OS created in the last 5 years, and in a free market, would have become immensely popular.

      P.P.S. Ever wondered why Windows 9x doesn't run with DR-DOS? I don't think integration has ever been for the users benefit at MS.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    3. Re:Sad... by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      I should get one thing straight right now. The goal of a business isn't to become a monopoly -- that's a myth perpetuated by monopoly apologists and sympathizers. The goal of a business is to make the owners a living. Corporate agandas perverted this goal into the current "you can't compete unless you're willing to monopolize the industry for the entire nation" garbage. I know the owners of a few small businesses (small businesses are the ones I believe should be protected by the government against corporations, lest we are willing to become nothing more than another civilization kept adrift by feudalism when a few emperors of the dollar decide they their workers don't deserve "rights" anymore, and sign them away on the next contract renewal), and they often do it for two reasons:To make a living (not a killing, just a living), and to be their own bosses.

      Continuting on, I'm not sure what networking problems exist on Be. You've piqued my interest, have you had any major problems with it? I know it ran well enough for me, but I just use the network to run BeZilla...

      Be had a suprising user and developer base, and if they had lasted long enough to release BeOS 6(I'm aware of the paradigm shift to BeIA, in retrospect, it seems that the change was part of the death throes of Be), they would have achieved professional OpenGL on the first platform other than Windows. I believe that had that final release, it would have become a hugely used OS.(note: Please don't argue this point -- it's all a red herring, and I'd rather remember Be as a really cool OS which was ahead of it's time, rather than remembering with a guy telling me why it sucked)

      For my P.P.S, Have you ever coded in DOS? Any given program essentially becomes an OS itself, allowing it to directly access hardware, and usually, the only thing that DOS provides is File I/O access. Doom was as much an OS as Windows 95, but it didn't come with it's own bootloader! Dos was always just a bootloader for whatever program you chose to run with a minimalist shell slapped on top. That's part of what made(and makes) it a joy to code for. Hardware access is generally much nicer(not to mention faster) when done directly.

      Anyway, I guess this entire discussion is just a red herring, since BeOS has been sold, OS/2 users are now considered wierd (y'know...I still have it installed, and I even use it sometimes! I'm trying to get a copy of Warp 4.0 cheap though. Then I can use it as a cheap Bochs station(the VDM in OS/2 warp is immensely powerful. You can run Windows 9x under it, or even Linux, and the best part is that you can multitask those OS's, which makes OS/2 one of my favourites. It's way faster than Bochs by the way -- full virtualization isn't needed, and it's still stable too!)

      Just forget this whole arguement. I'm just so jaded because I keep seeing cool products get knocked down. If Linux ever dies, a lot of people here will finally understand how I feel, seeing a promising product get cut down.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    4. Re:Sad... by Decimal · · Score: 2

      BeOS. No apps, poor hardware support, and a confused vision killed this OS.

      There's that conjecture, and the fact that when a lot of companies were planning to ship BeOS as a dual boot to Windows with new computers, Microsoft's lawyers showed up on their doorstep. They reminded the companies that Microsoft's license agreement would allow the big-M to retaliate in rather nasty ways if they went ahead with the plan.

      DR-DOS. It's DOS. DOS is dead.

      If that's the case, you might want to inform the people at FreeDos as soon as possible.

      Suffice it to say, the problem was only in a beta of win3.x, and not in the final version. But I guess beta Microsoft software can kill competitors, right? Right?

      Microsoft's F.U.D. certainly can, and did.

      --

      Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
    5. Re:Sad... by Sj0 · · Score: 2

      I'm not fear mongering, just think about it. There are a large number of entities which have all the rights of an individual, none of the responsibilities, incredible wealth, and incredible longevity, not to mention incredible political power -- why shouldn't we be afraid that an entity based almost entirely on the bending of morality to fit a profit margin which has all these powers combined?! How have they proven that they should be allowed this power, and why should they be allowed to exist, when their mere existance is enough to stop a small business from forming, and it's wraith is something every small business owner has nightmares about. Many have proven that the government has no power over these dreadnaughts, the legal system is a mere twig, to be tossed aside by these behemoths, and the might of the US DoJ and half the US states mere footsoldiers, to be brushed aside when the next election comes along.

      I'd say there is something to be afraid of. Something very scary. Amoral entities with the powers of virtual gods have been created, and with no real limits on what they can do, with their armies of lawyers and leigons of pen-pushing, weak willed politicians baking them up, it takes some balls o' steel, or an incredible amount of mental skill, to simply dismiss them like that.

      --
      It's been a long time.
  29. And now, the Pro-settlement comments. by MAXOMENOS · · Score: 5, Informative
    Most of the comments either state that the settlement won't promote competition (click here or here, or are based on the allegation that some sort of deal was cut (illegally) between MS and the DOJ. The following is a list of for PRO-settlement comments:
    1. The Association for Competitive Technology
    2. Professor Nicholas S. Economides, Stern School of Business, NYU
    3. Computing Technology Industry Association
    4. Joseph L. Bast on behalf of the Heartland Institute

    There is also one comment against the settlement, rejects the settlement as a violation of Microsoft's property rights.

    Are there any more that I'm missing?

  30. Re:I Care by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 2
    I was going to send deadtree, but IIRC, the DOJ recommended email.

    From the comment solicitation page:

    Note: Given recent mail delivery interruptions in Washington, DC, and current uncertainties involving the resumption of timely mail service, the Department of Justice strongly encourages that comments be submitted via e-mail or fax.

    (emphasis DOJ's).

    --
    Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
  31. They really did get the best 47. by mactari · · Score: 4, Insightful

    After the initial shock of not seeing my comments appear in the final 47 (all listed in entirety: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms-major.htm), I noticed some of what the individuals (as opposed to companies) that wrote in really do have great comments.

    Here's an example from Mark Alexander, pseudo-randomly chosen b/c he's the first individual listed (http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/major/mt c-00002572.htm):

    Mark: 4) The primary beneficiary of the settlement, other than Microsoft, is the OEM rather than the consumer.

    Me: Great point. I spent much of my comment saying OEMs should have the right to bundle Java VMs or dual booting machines without penalty. How does giving OEMs the *right* to do this ultimately ensure something positive for the consumer? I don't know that it does. This wasn't just a good comment for the settlement, but even for other comment writers like myself.

    Mark: IV - D: Coverage for OEM should not be limited to just the largest volume 20, but should include all the smaller OEM who by nature of their size have less of a bargaining position with Microsoft to begin with and as a group represent a large portion of licenses sold.

    Me: Another great point. I'd allowed the presentation of the settlement in the media to greatly influence what I wrote and never bothered to break the whole thing down line by line. Talk about your misinformed and underinformed public (aka "me"). Let's face it, Mark did his homework. I didn't realize smaller OEMs didn't receive similar/the same protections.

    Anyhow, I find the individual responses to be quite interesting, moreso than, say, RealNetwork's response which was obviously put together by "real" lawyers (Can't imagine being able to say "IAAL!"). Take a look. Whoever sifted through did very well.

    --

    It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
  32. lack of AC? by mikeee · · Score: 2

    Personally, I'm glad there weren't any listed from anonymous cowards:

    "W00t! F1r5t c0mment!"

    Nice to see a bunch from individual techies in the 47, though.

  33. Senate Comments by Random+Feature · · Score: 5, Interesting

    " We stand today on the threshold of writing the rules of competition in the digital age. We have two options. One option involves one dominant company controlling the computer desktop facing minor restraints that expire in five years, but acting as a gatekeeper to 95 percent of all personal computer users. The other model is the flowering of innovation and new products that resulted from the breakup of the AT&T telephone monopoly nearly 20 years ago. From cell phones to faxes, from long-distance price wars to the development of the Internet itself, the end of the telephone monopoly brought an explosion of new technologies and services that benefit millions of consumers everyday. We should insist on nothing less in this case."

    Sen. Herb Kohl, D-WI

    I didn't vote for this guy as one of my senators, but I'm thinking seriously about voting for him the next time he comes up for re-election. I like the way he thinks. He hit the nail right on the head.

    I'm disappointed that the only "major" responses are mostly from corporations or lawyers. Perhaps this case will introduce a new section in high school English -

    "How to respond to a proposed settlement against Microsoft".

    I'm sure this isn't the last one we'll need to protest...

    --
    I don't have a solution, but I certainly admire the problem.
    1. Re:Senate Comments by X · · Score: 2

      Actually Dan Kegel wrote up a very detailed commentary, and he is nothing close to a lawyer.

      --
      sigs are a waste of space
  34. A way to fast track the case? by 2Bits · · Score: 2

    Am I the only one who get tired of the MS case already? Is there a way to fast track this, get settled (whatever the outcome) and get over this as soon as possible?

    Sure, there are parties who would like to drag on, like lawyers, MS, politicians in the MS camp, MS lobbyists.

    But as the case drags on, the big loosers are: American citizens whose tax money is used to prosecute the case, Europeans (for the same reasons, as they are also in the same situation), citizens of the whole world who end up paying more for PC softwares as MS continues its bullying tactics with its monopoly, other software companies that get crushed by MS bullying tactics, employees of those crashed companies, potential companies/project that are afraid to get in MS's way... and the list goes on.

    There's not even an injunction that itemizes what MS _can't_ do while the case is in prosecution. So, MS keeps doing the same thing.

    By the time the case is over (in 10 years? 20? 30?), the economic (and probably competitive, hopefully) landscape will be very different, and the whole argument of the case probably won't make sense anymore. People would probably have forgotten the purpose of the prosecution already.

    And during all these times, almost everyone is loosing big, except those who benefit from the drag.

    1. Re:A way to fast track the case? by kennylives · · Score: 2

      But you really can't have it both ways though, can you? I mean, you can't fast-track the outcome and provide any effective mechanism for dealing with Microsoft's actions at the same time.

      The proposed settlement is an attempt to fast-track the entire case into oblivion, allowing Microsoft to continue relatively unscathed by the whole process. The only other way to fast-track to a resolution is to throw the book at 'em, break them up, whatever. Neither outcome is necessarily desirable or effective.

      I don't want to see it drag on either, but I seem to remember someone (can't remember who - attributions, anyone?) once saying that the wheels of justice turn slowly. That's what we're seeing here.

      --

      Where the value of X-Mailer: is the true measure of a man...

  35. WordPerfect by XgregX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While reading some of the comments, it was interesting to notice that the Computing Technology Industry Association made it obvious that they formatted their document using WordPerfect9 and that if there were any problems "downloading or formatting this file" they would be happy to provide it in another format.

  36. Where is the Public in all of this? by 3seas · · Score: 2

    This case was supposed to be about how MS has damaged public interest. So now that the public has been given a chance to speak, who is it but corporation that are brought out into the spotlight....

    What's wrong with this picture?

  37. 5 in favor? by epepke · · Score: 2

    I just scanned through the documents on the site and, though I may have missed something in the legalese, this is what I saw.

    The responses by Joseph Bast and the Center for the Moral Defense of Capitalism support the settlement but seemingly on the grounds that antitrust is a bad or obselete thing. Therefore, these seem to assert that the settlement is good because it is an ineffective remedy.

    The responses by CompTIA and Nicholas S. Economides seem to support the settlement but still allow for some form of antitrust.

    The response by John V. Tunney appears to be a clarification of the procedure that bears his name and has little to say about the settlement.

    So, I see only two that support the settlement as a remedy. Have I missed something?

  38. Tunney by mikeee · · Score: 2

    In fact, Tunney slams Microsoft, if indirectly.

    Part of the Tunney act, besides the public commentary, is that the defendant has to disclose any lobbying associated with the case. Microsoft argued that this didn't include lobbying of the Executive branch. Former senator Tunney's letter mostly explains that it (obviously) covers that as well as legislative or judicial lobbying.

  39. Supporters of the settlement by Spoing · · Score: 5, Informative
    Personally, I have a very long memory. I bet you do too. It's important to realize who is on what side.

    Since the bad-guy list is short, here's a complete(?) list of those who submitted one of the 'major' papers saying the settlement was appropriate;

    1. CompTIA: "The goal of the settlement in this case should not be to penalize Microsoft for past behavior, nor should it be to benefit Microsoft's competitors by forcing Microsoft to license its source code against its will. The settlement should insure that Microsoft does not engage in the actions found unlawful by the Court of Appeals. This consent judgment does just that and therefore it should be approved."

    2. The Heartland Institute: "I hope the court resists suggestions that the settlement "doesn't go far enough" in restricting Microsoft's freedom to compete or punishing it for competing too aggressively in the past. Justice in this case requires neither. The proposed Final Judgment protects the interests of consumers and producers by allowing Microsoft and its competitors to compete by producing the high-quality goods and services that consumers want."

    3. Association for Competitive Technology: CONCLUSION For all these reasons, the RPFJ should be adopted, and the Litigating States' proposals should be rejected."

    4. The Center for the Moral Defense of Capitalism "The basis for Judge Jackson's ruling is not any "monopoly" allegedly controlled by Microsoft; it is the monopoly commanded by the morality of altruism over our culture. That monopoly can be seen, unfortunately, in Bill Gates's sanction of his own destruction in a comment immediately after the ruling, in which he declares that "because of our success, we understand that Microsoft is held to a higher standard, and we accept that responsibility."[vii] As long as this moral monopoly remains unchallenged, legal doctrines such as antitrust will continue to punish successful businesses."

    5. Nicholas S. Economides, Professor of Economics at the Stern School of Business of New York University: "In my opinion, the RPFJ is a good and fair settlement that achieves the objectives of remedial relief without damaging the software industry. I would urge caution against a deeper intervention in the software industry, where fast technological change and very significant network effects make it very difficult to predict the medium and long run effects of such intervention."

      Washington Legal Foundation: "The United States has said it best: "[T]he [Proposed Judgment], once implemented by the Court, will achieve the purposes of stopping Microsoft's unlawful conduct, preventing its reoccurrence, and restoring competitive conditions in the personal computer operating system market, while avoiding the time, expense and uncertainty of a litigated remedy."(19) We support the Proposed Judgment. The matter is long overdue for resolution, and the States that have declined to join the settlement should, in our judgment, be urged by the Department and the Court to reconsider and adopt it."

    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  40. I read your comment, and ... by JoeBuck · · Score: 2

    ... it seems to me that every point that Lumpish Scholar makes is also made, at least as effectively, either by Dan Kegel's comment or Eben Moglen's comment, both of which are in the 47.

  41. Soap box conspiracy theories (mod away). by bartenderpho · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I don't know about the rest of /. (I have a feeling, though), but I have a couple of serious problems with the way the comments have been handled (mount soap box).

    First: Only the major comments are receiving any attention. Only corporations and funded organizations are able to devote the time and resources required to prepare a reply worty of attention. I haven't seen any numbers but I wonder how many individuals are considered in the 47 major comments. Could they take into account a random selection of other opinions? This would allow for minimal goat sex, but a chance for the average Joe with two lines to say get heard.

    Second: The DOJ is the one doing the sorting. Isn't this their proposal being commented on? Isn't it in their best interest to limit the number of responses? Why bother sending in comments if the DOJ gets to remove them? Again a random selection of other comments would help. You'ld get a better idea of the true number of people for and against the proposal.

    That said, (step down from soap box) I'm glad to hear that the opposition to the agreement seems to have been able to have their say. I'm also very glad that this is a system that allows for public comments on a hot topic. It could have been settled behind closed doors without any knowledge of the proceedings much less any influence on the outcome.

  42. RMS is represented by Eben Moglen, his lawyer by JoeBuck · · Score: 2

    Eben Moglen is the FSF's lawyer, and his comment (which made the cut: it's one of the 47) is the official FSF proposal.

  43. Yes, you missed CompTIA by Spoing · · Score: 2
    That CompTIA was for the settlement was a little shock -- though they do get the monsters amount of $ from MS certifications.

    Your list overlaps mine a bit.

    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  44. Nader's comments on GPL by mikemulvaney · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I thought Nader's comments on how the settlement could affect Free Software were really interesting:

    Note for example that under J.1 and J.2 of the proposed final order, Microsoft can withhold technical information from third parties on the grounds that Microsoft does not certify the "authenticity and viability of its business," while at the same time it is describing the licensing system for Linux as a "cancer" that threatens the demise of both the intellectual property rights system and the future of research and development.

    It seems odd that Microsoft would be allowed to choose to withold secrets based on how viable they thought the other business would be. In other words, they could say (and they have said) "Linux is not a viable/authentic business", and then they would no longer be required to share information with them.

    It shouldn't be up to Microsoft to decide who their competitors are, anyway.

    -Mike

  45. Email! by PhoenxHwk · · Score: 2, Funny

    So, 30000 comments via email. I wonder if 29000 of them were from hotmail addresses. And if so, I'll be we know where THEY came from, eh?

  46. OCR Glitch or Slashdot Trolls at RedHat? by grendelkhan · · Score: 2

    Are the folks at RedHat really Slashdot trolls in their spare time? From their comment:

    "Open source and free software is distinct from traditional (proprietary) software in that it is produced by a generally voluntary, collaborative process, and accompanied by a license that pants users the right to..."

    A CTLR-F failed to find references to Natalie Portman or Grits, but maybe they were only on the cover sheet of the fax.

    --
    Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
  47. WordPerfect? by PhotoGuy · · Score: 2

    That government document was available in PDF and WordPerfect. For a government that's arguing that MS has a monopoly, you'd think they'd publish in the format that most of the industry is forced to use, Word, rather than implying there are other practical exchange formats (WP). :-) They should provide it in StarOffice SDC and AbiWord formats, too.

    -me

    --
    Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    1. Re:WordPerfect? by sphere · · Score: 2

      I have it from fairly good sources that the DOJ uses WordPerfect as its main word processor. And judging from this 2000 press release, they'll be using WP until 2003.

      For a long time, WP was the word processor for lawyers and somewhere I read that the last of the big law firms have finally gone to Word. Since the DOJ are government lawyers, I guess they'll be the last to switch.

      --
      Deep in the ocean are treasures beyond compare; but if you seek safety, it is on the shore.
  48. Nader and Love get it by schwanerhill · · Score: 3, Interesting
    In general, I'm no Nader fan, but Ralph Nader and James Love's comment is right on the money.

    Their first complaint about the settlement is "there is a need to have broader disclosure of file formats for popular office productivity and multimedia applications. Moreover, where Microsoft appears be given broad discretion to deploy intellectual property claims to avoid opening up its monopoly operating system where it will be needed the most, in terms of new interfaces and technologies. Moreover, the agreement appears to give Microsoft too many opportunities to undermine the free software movement."

    Exactly. Most of the other comments that oppose the settlement, including the nine litigating states, think that Microsoft should be forced to continue to develop Office for Mac, and some want to force Microsoft to develop Office for Linux and other unices. What they don't seem to understand is that that will simply move Microsoft's most important monopoly from operating systems to office suites (i.e. applications). In fact, this would do Microsoft a huge favor. It is becoming more and more clear that consumers will not be so dependent upon using the same operating system as everyone else. Instead, what most people care about is the ability to share Word files. If the centerpiece of the remedy is to force Microsoft to develop Office for all competing operating systems, no one will be freed from essentially forced use of Microsoft products; we will simply be freed from forced use of Microsoft operating systems.

    What Microsoft needs to do is exactly what Nader proposes: open up their file formats so that competitors can produce software that can read and write Office files as well as Office itself.

    Nader is also the only commenter that I saw (I've only looked at four or five of the comments, and haven't read all of any of them, given the length) who recognized the strength that the PFJ gives to Microsoft by allowing them to exclude developers whose "business viability" is not certified by Microsoft, i.e. open source and other not-for-profit developers.

    May Nader continue to watch out for consumers' interests (but may he try to effect change in the Democratic party through the primaries and other methods rather than by throwing the presidential election).

    1. Re:Nader and Love get it by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

      My comment brought up "the strength that the PFJ gives to Microsoft by allowing them to exclude developers whose "business viability" is not certified by Microsoft". Of course, nobody (except maybe some unfortunate law clerk -- apologies in advance) will ever read it. I really rambled, because I had one hour to write and it was 4am or so when I started.

      The rest of my comment discussed Microsoft's apparent view of their place in our society. I wanted to make sure at least one comment discussed Microsoft's antisocial behavior -- i.e. they want to win every battle, no matter the effect on our society. That includes multiple deliberate attempts to increase the length of this trial, at *everyone's* expense.

      -Paul Komarek

  49. EFF or EPIC? by pgpckt · · Score: 2

    I was suprised not to see any comments from either The Electronic Frontier Foundation or The Electronic Privacy Information Center with comments on the debate. Why didn't these normally active groups submit an opinion?

    --
    Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
    1. Re:EFF or EPIC? by Spoing · · Score: 2

      Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't submit something the DOJ considered 'major'? I'd be surprised if they didn't do anything, but it is possible.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  50. Re:why am i not surprised... by William+Tanksley · · Score: 2

    when did we get the RIGHT to acquire and possess? i always thought life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were our rights.

    Those rights are not ever given in the U.S. Constitution (from which I assume you're trying to quote). They're assumed to be preexistant. As you point out, the third one isn't mentioned even in the preamble; however, it was included in the rough drafts, and removed for PR reasons (no, I'm serious -- check your history). Whether they're named or not, the rights are not considered something which is given to us; rather, they are innate; and property was considered one of the fundamental rights (consider the amendment which mentions privacy in one's own home; how can you have privacy in your home if you do not have a home?).

    how can you use the words moral and capitalism in the same sentence without a punchline?

    Capitalism is the least moral form of economy, with the exception of all other forms of economy.

    Okay, that WAS a punch line. Let me try again.

    Capitalism provides a framework against which moral judgements can be made. All of the other economic systems which have been proposed have failed to do so; most of them have instead provided absolute declarations of morality, without any means of checking.

    This means to me that capitalism doesn't contain a science of morality; it doesn't make declarations like "stealing is bad". Instead, it predicts what happens when people do specific things (including stealing in all its different forms).

    Randian economics isn't capitalism, by the way; it's capitalism plus a specific set of ethical principles (most of which I happen to find abhorrent and silly, since I do not subscribe to the principle that might makes right).

    -Billy

  51. Ramon G. Pantin by grendelkhan · · Score: 2

    This guy not only has cred, but picks apart the RPFJ AND shows where and how the loopholes should be fixed.

    Well worth the read.

    --
    Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
  52. Re:why am i not surprised... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

    You could argue that capitalism is moral in that competition and market forces work to supply people with an optimal set of goods and services for an optimal cost.

    Well, let's at least use some precision. Capitialism is an -attempt- at a method of supplying optimal goods at optimal cost. It is an approximation of an (impossible to determine) ideal; a heuristic if you will. Other than that, I will agree.

    Still, the center is exactly wrong about Microsoft. There abuse of monopoly power is what abridges the rights of others to participate in a market economy.

    Indeed. Surely the Center wouldn't argue that the government should drop all currently engaged cases involving theft, would it? After all, a thief is merely exersizing the right to aquire and posess, and who is the government to interfere? But thievery is damaging, and thus we restrict the freedom of the thief to steal for the sake of the freedom of others. That is precisely what is going on here. The rights of one are being restricted to prevent the rights of many.

    But since the center obviously understands this principle (else they'd be dedicated to the abolition of prisons, the greatest limiter of rights in our country), I have to wonder either why they don't see it applying in this case or, more specificially, what they have to gain by failing to see it?

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  53. Re:Your initial shock?!! by swillden · · Score: 2

    :-)

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  54. People are qualified to address what affects them by coyote-san · · Score: 2

    People are qualified to address what affects them. E.g., the settlement says Microsoft can keep authentication protocols and algorithms secret, but you've replaced your flaky Windows file servers with Samba, then you're going to have a well-informed opinion on the settlement. Even if you aren't a developer, you can read the position paper by the Samba team and reasonably interpret how their problems will limit your ability to use Samba instead of Windows in the future.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  55. Re:Corporations do not have rights. by crucini · · Score: 2

    That's an interesting way to look at it, but I seem to recall Rand validating the rights of corporations. For example, Taggart Transcontinentel seems to be a corporation, and Rand presents government regulation of their railroad operations as an intolerable intrusion. Although I don't think Rand really understood what a corporation is - I think she used corporations as simple proxies for powerful individuals. Thus Rearden Steel == Henry Rearden.

  56. My Own, Rather Radical Remedy Proposal (serious) by Nova+Express · · Score: 2

    Here, verbatim, are the comments I e-mailed in on the proposed settlement. They go quite a bit beyond even Judge Jackson's proposals...

    To all it may concern,
    I believe that the proposed Microsoft settlement is a bad deal for computer users, for the computer industry, and for the nation as a whole. It does nothing to address Microsoft's predatory and monopolistic tactics, nothing to address the fact that it's blithely broken previous consent decrees and defied court orders, and nothing to provide relief for companies and consumers who have been harmed by these practices. It should be rejected and far more stringent financial and structural penalties imposed.
    Despite their slogan, Microsoft has achieved it's current position not by "innovation" or hard work so much as by imitation (Apple) or outright theft (Stack Technologies) of the innovations of others. It used strong-arm tactics, sharp practice and predatory pricing to establish it's monopoly in operating systems, then illegally used that same monopoly to grab equally compelling strangleholds on other areas of the software industry. At best Microsoft is a sandlot bully, threatening others with its monopoly power to get its own way. At worse it's a third world dictator, knowing it's above the law (witness its boldfaced violation of its first consent decree, and how it lied, repeatedly, in court) with the firm knowledge that it's too powerful to be punished.
    A company truly dedicated to innovation would not wait two years to address the myriad security vulnerabilities of Windows and Outlook. If a different component on Ford trucks were to blow up and be recalled every week, Ford would be out of business very quickly indeed. If Microsoft did not wield such monopoly power, it would not be able to get away with selling such defective products.
    Microsoft has proven again and again that consent decrees are entirely inadequate to stop its predatory practices. Only harsh, structural and lasting penalties will be able break it's monopoly power and return real competition to the markets it illegally dominates.

    For penalties which would truly address Microsoft's monopoly power, punish it for past transgressions, and provide real relief to the victims of it's illegal actions, I propose the following:
    1. Microsoft should be levied a $10 billion fine. Half of this money should be earmarked for the DOJ and state attorneys general to pay for the cost of prosecuting Microsoft, and to pay the cost of future oversight and enforcement, and half should be returned to the consumers and companies harmed by Microsoft's predatory practices.
    2. The source code for all Microsoft products released through 1999 should be released in their entirety and made available to the public to be used by anyone to create their own versions of Windows, Office, etc. without paying royalties to Microsoft. This would also provide relief from Microsoft's monopolistic practice of using "embrace and extend," i.e., making it's products intentionally incompatible with established computing standards for the sole purpose of using it's illegal monopoly to erect barriers to competition. With the source code readily available, it would be a simple matter both to engineer compatibility to Microsoft's "enhancements," and to recompile Microsoft programs to adhere to open computing standards.
    3. All the Application Programming Interfaces (APIs) to all shipping Microsoft products should be published and made freely available. This would prevent Microsoft's anti-competitive tactic of leveraging it's Windows monopoly through the use "secret" APIs in Windows that only Microsoft programmers can use to enhance their other product lines.
    4. Microsoft should be split into no less than four separate companies: One responsible for Windows, a second for Office, a third for Internet Explorer, Back Office, Outlook, and all it's other Internet-related software, and a fourth for everything else (X-Box, WebTV, etc.). However, source code for all of Microsoft's currently shipping products should be distributed to each of these companies, with each having the ability to reuse or sublicense such code. This would create many competing products in segments of the market previously dominated by Microsoft, to the great benefit of consumers. These companies would also be barred from merging with each other or sharing directors for at least ten years.
    5. The above companies would have one year to plug all known security holes in Windows and Outlook. After that period, they would be made financially liable for any economic damage such vulnerabilities in their software cost customers who had all current security patches installed but were still victimized by hackers or viruses.
    6. The MS Office spinoff would be required to produce simultaneous versions of Office for the most recent release of Mac OS and Linux, at price parity with the Windows version, for a period of five years.
    7. A government oversight board would be created with the authority to unilaterally impose fines, order remedies, change contracts, and release source code in order to implement the judgement.

    This is a very radical remedy, and one I do not suggest lightly. In fact, I consider myself to be a Libertarian, one who believe that government should remain small and interfere in the free market only under the direst circumstances. However, one fundamental precondition for a free market is that those competing in it must obey the rule of law. Microsoft has shown, again and again, that it is willing to break and flout the law for it's own benefit, and to maintain it's illegal monopoly power. If Microsoft's earlier predatory practices had been curbed or punished when the first occurred, the government would not be faced with these vexing antitrust issues. But now that it has reached this point, serious structural remedies are the only solution. Microsoft has proven time and time again that it will not stop abusing it's monopoly power. It's now up to the courts eliminate that monopoly.

    - Lawrence Person, Austin, Texas; Science Fiction Writer

    --
    Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

  57. Re:s/for/the/ (Re:Slashdot for Government!) by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

    Thanks for point that out. I'll be sure to read these now, at least until I vomit. ;-)

    -Paul Komarek

  58. CNN Article by Peyna · · Score: 2
    Here is a related CNN.com article stating how the states are going to be getting Windows code (including XP).

    One interesting statement from the article: In addition to handing over the Windows code, the states that have not settled had also asked the judge to appoint a technical expert to help provide impartial opinions on complex technical issues raised by the case.

    Kollar-Kotelly said there was too little time to find the right person for that role.

    At least they are finally realizing that there are many things that they don't know about what is going on, and want to bring an expert in. Too bad the judge doesn't feel the same way.

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    What?
    1. Re:CNN Article by Spoing · · Score: 2
      "Kollar-Kotelly said there was too little time to find the right person for that role."

      Yeah, I took that to mean that the judge has basically made a decision, and that is to accept the agreement in principle but tighten it up to close the numerous loopholes and freebies that MS added in.

      There might be a few parts that are tweaked, but comments like this make me think that these will be few and moderate in scope.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  59. Re:why am i not surprised... by Znork · · Score: 2

    Ooops, 'The Center for the Moral Defense of Capitalism' appears to be confused on the issue of the right to acquire and possess property versus the right to prevent others from acquireing and possessing property.

    Of course, Objectivists always get all confused about this, which makes them sortof a loony fringe of Libertarianism. Most libertarians, I think, agree that the right to move ones fist ends at someone elses nose, but the Objectivists have some serious problems with this concept.

    Antitrust cases arent about those who want to acquire property. Antitrust cases are about those who want to prevent others from doing the same.