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Mozilla Development Roadmap Updated
yota writes: "The guys at mozilla.org just published an updated development roadmap with some interesting thoughts about what will happen after Mozilla 1.0 will be released. Enjoy!" This is worth reading even if you skim toward the bottom and jump to the Intertwingle link. The Mozilla project isn't slapped together -- this kind of forethought and explanation is proof.
Mozilla has gotten MUCH better in the last year or so...a few more point releases should bring it to the point of complete Netscape replacement.
for useless comment of the day...
Mozilla rules! In my opinion the releases after 0.9.5 have been good enough to use daily (as in, better than the old Netscape 4). If the developers can concentrate on stability and footprint for 0.9.9 and 1.0 and avoid featurism, it'll be perfect.
I switched to Linux as my primary OS a few months ago, and I haven't looked back. I find I don't miss Windows a bit, and I'm happy with my Slackware/AfterStep setup.
I use Mozilla as my primary browser (Nightly builds), and I find that it has gotten much better than it used to be. Bug reports hit Bugzilla, and are usually updated and/or assigned the same day. Their system is really great.
Sure, the browser has a few annoying things. Text boxes STILL don't behave properly, opening a new window in any shape or form (Ctrl+N, or a javascript function) takes *forever*, and other little things. Overall though, Mozilla is a pretty decent browser. Gecko is a great rendering engine, and tabbed browsing is just totally fucking fantastic.
Once the speed issues are addressed and the behaivior kinks are worked out, that's when 1.0 should hit.
Unfortunately, I find that I do miss the incredible speed of IE 5x. Say what you will about IE security, but it's still the best browser out there. Fortunately, I can happily make that trade-off as a Linux desktop user.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Your right about Konqueror 3, i tried it this weekend and its really good (actually writing this under it). The only good thing to come from Mozilla is the Gecko engine.
Hail to the king, baby!
The Oprah browser sucks. Montel and Rikki are far better, although Rikki has quite a large memory footprint...
That man tried to kill mah Daddy
The Oprah browser?
Yeah, I see this opinion all the time. Mozilla is too slow, Mozilla is too bloated, too many features.
Well, that's your opinion. I find that a lot of Linux users tend to have this opinion, perhaps because UNIX is more based around the idea of small reusable components than other platforms.
Usually posts like that one end up with something like "Yeah, but I love Konquerer or Galeon, it's so light!", which just shows that you prefer small and fast to not so small and not so fast (but with more features). Fine, I can understand that.
But you know what? I'd be willing to bet that I use about 80-90% of Mozillas features, both on Windows and Linux. I am glad everytime I see a new feature. So you like using Gecko, but not their front end. That's great, but please bear in mind this is purely a matter of personal taste - not everyone agrees, so constantly repeating your own opinion doesn't really add much to the debate.
Oh yeah, also I get sick of people talking out of their ASSES about how Mozilla is badly manged because OMG the latest nightly has a regression in it. This is caused by a fundamental misunderstanding about how the project works. You think - oh, until 1.0 is finished Mozilla won't be ready, it'll still be in beta. But nobody I've talked to who has used Netscape 6.2 thinks it's beta software.
They don't think it's perfect either, but the fact is that 1.0 is a number basically plucked out of the air. It's when the APIs will be guaranteed frozen, and other geeky targets like that. When you use Mozilla, you agreed that you were using TEST software, released for the purposes of TESTING. In the course of any large software engineering project, regressions will happen as the internals are rewritten to take advantage of the stuff the developers have learned. That's the same in any project.
So what I'm saying is, don't whine and bitch about how your favourite feature has been futured, or how the latest nightly has had a regression, or how it doesn't run perfectly on your ultra-obscure variant of UNIX or whatever, and BE GRATEFUL that you can even see the progress of this project! Be grateful that you can contribute, and that you CAN play with the latest features and influence whether they become a part of the project or not.
Show me the IE or Opera bug db and then I'll shut up. Until then, stop with the FUD
In my opinion the new Oprah still has a large footprint altough it was even larger in version 1.x. If Oprah managed to downsize maybe there is hope even for Rikki. Rikki is especially good on the discussion groups - but funny thing: you always get flamed!?
I really doubt it, since a gajillion people in the world use windows, its most likely that a large amount of those users are happy with the default browser (internet explorer) and dont want to bother with the trouble of setting up another one which is just as good. Perhaps if windows had the option of installing mozilla as a browser, its popularity/domination would increase. But that would only happen when Bill Gates pulls that stick out of his ass (and its been there since win3.x)
"you sonofabitch i didn't know!"
IE may be a bit easier to run, but there is not this HUGE gap you posit. The real question for me (and, I hope, most /.ers) is whether convenience is what I care about. Is bloatware better than well written code? Do you care?
Are you willing to lend support to a system you know is currupt for the sake of a little convenience? In general I understand that the US population says yes, but to hear this sad opinion voiced here is nothing short of dissapointing.
When will people learn? doing nothing isn't just a tacit voice for the status quo, but an active opposition of change, and as Morpheus says in the matrix "many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."
I'm a concientious
There have been at least a couple versions of IE for unix platforms. They were incredibly slow, huge, buggy products that roughly noone used.
On platforms where I have a choice, I avoid MSIE, because it's both amazingly insecure (not just `insecure', but incredibly so. Glaring, stupid bugs coming out at an amazingly high sustained rate. If only MS would spend 10% of the time/money they've invested in claiming in court that MSIE is absolutely essential to their business actually treating it as such...) and also because it's *Annoying*. In those rare situations where I'm forced into using MSIE it generally takes me less than a minute to run across a maddening barrage of flashing, blinking, obscuring ads covering the screen, floating around the background, or whatnot.
If you want speed, try Opera or Omniweb. If you want a good browser with source access, mozilla and konqueror are both good bets. MSIE's advantage is, was, and always will be that it's already built in to your OS.
I used to think that Mozilla was too slow and bloated. I still used it every day on my Linux box, but it wasn't the most pleasant of experiences.
However the speed issue was put on the back burner once I started using a small fraction of the features. Tabbed browsing, disabled onload popups, javascript console/debugger, etc, etc...
I still kept thinking, jeez, its just a browser people, it can't be _that_ hard to make something that renders HTML. However once I downloaded Komodo ( here )
and used it for a couple days, I saw the light. Mozilla isn't just a browser, its a platform. Komodo still suffers from Mozilla's slowness, but the amount of useful features included with it easily makes up for any speed issues. Mozilla will start to speed up once it matures more, so thats something I can wait patiently for.
Kudos to the Mozilla team, keep up the good work!
Open Source Time and Attendance, Job Costing a
Judging from http://browserwatch.internet.com/stats/stats.html
it looks like this project should have been shelved a long time ago.
The core of UNIX is based on small reusable components, but I don't think that's generally true for the userland tools, anymore. Just look at Perl, Emacs (no jokes please :-), X, KDE and GNOME, and (of course) Mozilla.
Unix was originally implemented on machines with very little memory, so it made sense to obey the "Unix philosophy" strictly. Nowadays, there's room for a little more flexibility.
For example, I occasionally see posts on Slashdot from "Unix purists", complaining that the GNU tools are way too bloated compared to their Unix counterparts. I find this amusing. In my experience, fractional improvements in performance and memory use are far outweighed by having more useful features. Like any other philosophy, the Unix philosophy taken to the extreme is bad for one's health.
Thats only because the browser is part of the OS itself.
Next you will be saying how fast Konq is on KDE.
Loading speed doesnt really matter as people get more ram and faster harddrives, what will matter most will be security, stability, and rendering speed. All which Mozilla have.
Mozilla truely is a next generation browser, most peoples computers arent fast enough to handle it, however if you have over 300mhz and over 128 megs of ram your computer will be just fine.
Since my browser is always open i dont care how fast the program is, but if i did theres galeon
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Its just the fastest browser for Windows.
Try running IE via Wine and comparing it to Mozilla, Then you'll have an equally fair comparison because neither Mozilla or IE would be native apps.
IE loses all of the sudden.
See Mozilla is slow because XUL is slow, however theres programs like Galeon for Linux and Kmeleon for Windows which use the native Windows Libraries and Classes just likee IE, making Mozilla just as fast as IE.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Its in second place
Netscape is Mozilla. Mozilla is netscape.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
-
In that update, I wrote "Mozilla needs performance, stability, and correctness" and not any particular new feature. Just before 2001 began, I wrote that useful and relevant (defined by the community) extensions are always welcome, provided that they don't have a high opportunity cost in terms of contributors who otherwise could and would have helped hack on 1.0. But by the fall of 2001, as noted in the Mozilla 1.0 manifesto, the opportunity costs of features and extensions had grown to the point where such "non-1.0" work jeopardized a 1.0 milestone that fit into any achievable schedule.
That sounds about right. Feature creep has damaged the project.Simple text box editing doesn't work right. Window opening takes too long. Menu popup is slow, and sometimes even breaks. Wierd behavior appears after the browser has opened large numbers of windows. All this stuff is basic, yet it's been botched.
Sometimes I wonder if Mozilla has secretly been sabotaged by Microsoft. Maybe they're paying people to bloat the code, add unwanted features, and make Mozilla unstable. Or maybe there's a secret deal between AOL and Microsoft to make it suck. That's how it looks from the user side.
ITs a proven fact.
Remember before IE was connected with Windows in 98 how slow and buggy it was? No one used IE3.0. IE 3.0 was absolute crap.
IE4.0 however was where things started changing, they tied it into Windows98, in 5.0 they tied it into WindowsME, Windows2k etc, now IE 6.0 or 7.0 is tied into the new OS's.
Run IE on Windows95 and see for yourself. Its as slow as Mozilla
IE only got fast after it became a part of the OS.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Opera's primary problem is it's lack of a complete DOM for the scripting engine. Any page that wants to do anything interesting through the DOM is best off in Mozilla or IE6.
If you're going to take a look at Opera take a stroll through the preferences. The defaults were a bit strange for me, once I adjusted things I felt much more at home with it.
Bleh!
No... not slapped together. Carefully and fearfully glued together, balanced on a sharp precipice over a steep cliff, yes. :)
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
The more I hear " IE is better because MS are cheating" without proof
What IE gains in performance, it loses slightly in conformance. IE bends the rules of HTML by not always properly initializing every iframe page's DOM. Speed-conformance tradeoffs that the user can't set are nothing new in the world of proprietary software; see also the Quack 3 incident.
Will I retire or break 10K?
If Mozilla is supposed to ever gain market share back from Microsoft Internet Explorer, the most important feature they need to add after 1.0 is a higher version number. I'd say shoot for 8.0 in 2002. No kidding. High version numbers work like real stability and features for many. It's the placebo effect.
I think your Konqueror blurb is a nice compliment. Konqueror is very fast, but it is, by far, a light browser. Konqueror, like Mozilla, is not just a web browser. Konqueror is a generic browser. It can be used for browsing anything, not just markup languages. It gets its flexibility with the KDE IO slaves (KIO). Which is why "help:/" will bring up the help system. "man:/" will let you browse man pages. "audiocd:/" will let you browse and audio CD, auto-convert to ogg, mp3, cdda info, etc..
One thing i really hate about mozila mail on windows: not being able to choose more than one file for attachment at the same time. If you want to attach multiple files to an e-mail you have to click on "attach" for every one of them. And this was the same in Netscape 4.x
Getting tables looking good in Mozilla and IE is not impossible. It is just more difficult than it needs to be. For example, the use of the background colour is different and (correct me if I am wrong) this is not in the W3 standard.
Anyway - Netscape 7 will ROCK!
This looks to me to be a very good thing. Finally, we see a long lived mozilla 1.0 branch with real involvement by mozilla.org in producing a quality product.
Beyond that, with the 1.1, 1.2 releases we finally look to be getting something that is a real development scheme rather than the endless series of, what I would call, "technology previews" that earlier versions of mozilla have been. (With the alpha quality that usually goes along with such previews.)
If they stick to this, it seems to me 2002 really could be the year of the lizard.
Even if Opera were tons slower, I'd use it just for the mouse gestures. Being able to move forward, back, up a directory level, etc. just by holding the right mouse button and sliding the mouse has become so intuitive I keep catching myself doing it in other browsers, spreadsheets, in PowerPoint... everywhere. I wonder what it would take to make them part of an operating system?
What do people think of the following ideas. Are they even feasible? If they've been discussed before, or are already available, please provide pointers.
;)), it doesn't bring down everything.
Grammar checker - now that the spellchecker is coming along, a grammar checker would be nice. I see that there are bugs open for spell checking in textareas - this will be good too, and a significant bonus feature over IE.
Looser integration - Mozilla, like Netscape before it, only seems to like using its own mail component. It would be nice if this were configurable. This is fine for me everywhere but work where there's no choice: it has to be Outlook.
Window cloning. This is a feature that IE has that I really miss when using Mozilla. Basically, hitting Ctrl+N opens a complete clone of the current window, including history and page position (scroll). Window cloning has changed the way I browse the web, and it makes it harder to lose your session history by accidentally closing the wrong window.
More protocols in Chatzilla to allow interoperation with other networks, such as MSN and Yahoo.
Multiple processes! I suspect that this might be rather harder to achieve. However, IE has an option for browsing in separate processes. If one thing fails (that's not supposed to happen, right?
I think that one of the greatest features of Mozilla is that you can take the W3 CSS2 spec and use it pretty much as a manual.
I work at a web-design company, and the web-designers are starting to realise this. Mozilla is the ONLY browser that gets this close to standards compliance, IE6 is still al LONG way behind. NS 4.7 just plain sucks at modern HTML/CSS; Opera doesn't cut it either. Konqueror is pretty impressive, giving IE a run for it's money.
Couple that with the fact that Mozilla is cross-platform, can be embedded and is truly Open Source makes it a really great product.
I think the best way to get support from Mozilla would be to add IE Compatible mode. Either through preferences or a new custom flag-tag (). So that ALL of the parsing/paining logic (as well as javascript) would behave EXACTLY as IE. I am sick and tired hunting javascript bugs (trees initialized only AFTER the document is loaded with a whole bunch of "nice" side effects if you try to use IE code). Sizing in tables is just off, word wrapping is weird (to say at least) and so on and so forth. :)
Leave this new "Mozilla" mode for experimentating web developers, for the rest of us -- give us IE-Compatible browser
Or you will see "Made for IE" buttons all over again
Hyperom.com
So, you don't want choices, or competition?
I think it's great having a browser that looks and behaves the same on multiple platforms. It provides a familiar base everywhere one goes. It kind of harks back to the days when there was talk of the browser being the platform, not the OS, which would of course render MS Windows irrelevant.
Anyone got a copy of at least the text of the page they can post here? or better yet a cached copy they could put up somewhere?....at least until it gets slashdotted again ;)
"I drank what?" - Socrates
Mozilla is good, but is no match with internet explorer or galeon. Opera also rules because is fast. fumari0
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Huh? I read through the bug and it doesn't sound like IE is doing anything non-conformal. The people posting in the bug were guessing that IE does lazy evaluation but they also managed to get two _orders of magnitude_ of speed improvement out of their own code. Given that Mozilla performance was that bad, it's hard to say if IE's performance is unreasonably good. But I'm guessing that lazy evaluation still wouldn't be illegal according to the HTML standard.
Am I the only one who loves this browser?
I was a hardcore IE addict. Been using linux for years, but was so sucked into browsing with IE I was sickening myself. I attempted to use Mozilla over the span of the project and for sure it got better and better over time, but I do agree with folks who say: "why not just a browser?"
This is one of the strengths of IE if you ask me. IE is just a browser the other tools are moved into the mess, and IE (IMHO) has a feeling of transparancy in this way.
I never got that from Netscape, and Mozilla felt that was more and more, but it just has too many 'features' I can get elsewhere.
So anyway, I ended up getting really paranoid about IE and was searching. I realized that if I had complaints about moz then I should use it and use bugzilla. I was doing this under windows as well as linux. I found myself (like a junkie) slipping over to IE again and again.
But then I found Galeon, it has saved me from this terrible addiction. I have not missed IE in the least bit. In fact, I am completly in love with it as a browser. Mozilla is cool too, but Galeon is the one that people who complain that Mozilla should have just been a browser, galeon is this.
Galeon is what it is all about.
This article (with identical wording) has been posted before and should be moderated accordingly.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=27485&cid=2954 571
Blog Ho
the javascript. It's too darn slow. Javascript
needs fly. They need to turn on the optimizer
or re-engineer a couple of key algorithms or something. Second thing is finalize the APIs
for plug-ins. A stable plug-in interface will
encourage developers to support it.
Unfortunately for the community, just as mozilla was becoming usable for everyday use, AOL TW have decided to close the source for the product once again. While this is certainly the best commercial decision they could make, it does leave the free software community with the rather daunting prospect of lacking a credible browser rendering engine. khtml is all very well and good, but I for one am not looking forward to the return to the dark old days of using a desktop which depends forever on proprietary libraries. Unfortunately, it looks like this problem will never be resolved, despite large efforts of persuasion on my part. It seems that some people just won't be told.
--
I really tried to give Mozilla a chance on my WinXP system, but it's simply a hog. Using the Quick Launch feature (the only way it was usable.. I don't want to wait 10-15 seconds for my browser to launch when I open a link) it would consistently eat up 30MB of RAM and having the browser running just made my computer feel slow. This is in addition to the numerous UI bugs, I don't know if they are specific to the Windows version, but even things like rearranging favorites on the fly with drag and drop wouldn't work, and sometimes text boxes like the address bar would refuse to take entry and I'd have to kill and restart the browser.
I was bearing with it for a while, I had really gotten to like tabbed browsing, but then I searched around a bit and found a couple of solutions that would give me tabs in IE, pretty much the best of both worlds. I'm using NetCaptor at the moment.. only downside is that it's shareware, and $30 for tabs kind of sucks. I'll probably go back to Moz in a few versions and give it another try if they can work out some of the bloat/bug problems that it's having at the moment.
My one compliant is [begin rant] that underlining of bold text still doesn't work correctly. There are so many obvious test cases for this, including Slashdot and Mozilla's BugZilla itself.
This bug has seemingly been ignored for the past two and a half years, with no plans of fixing it anytime soon (or before 1.0). Please, please, vote for bug 1777---or better yet, fix it if you know how!
Shouldn't an open source web browser be able to display Slashdot correctly? [end rant]
I'm a Opera user and i dont konsider it fast becouse netscape4.7 rendered pages alot faster. Opera is a huge CPU hog. Well i only have 32 megs of ram on this machine and in that aspect opera rules.
My CPU ticks at 233MHz so i notice things.
BTW: I can only chose between 2 nonfree browsers becouse of the memory requirements of mozilla.
Then mozilla on linux will be as fast as IE on windows.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Today I installed Mozilla on my father's W2K PC. He is a typical M$ user: no knowledge al all etc. He compared Moz0.9.8 with MSIE5.5 and told me that MS had lost him as a customer now.
I can't access Netscape.com or Mozilla.org since I installed a beta copy of .NET Enterprise server. I'm using it for NAT for a WinXP box, a Redhat 7.2 box, and an OS X box. None of the machines can access either site.
.NET box, I can access both sites.
If I shut down the
tcboo
> Show me the IE or Opera bug db and then I'll shut up
http://bugs.opera.com/
43015
Vote away....
Just check this pointer.
Almost 20% of readers of this site are using mozilla.
These statistics are extract from a panel of 15000 visits a day.
If you have other statistics, just post a response...
you suck
In my opinion those are all extra nice features Mozilla should have to be a complete browser, but the core of the program itself as a browser has way surpassed Netscape.
[alk]
I have 0.9.7 on Debian/PPC and it has publishing.
There is hardly anything dramatically different between the two that a "typical M$ user" would notice. Maybe the "cool" modern theme that comes with Mozilla.
roaming user
Not there.
ldap addressing
It's in there and working quite nicely. Just in a slightly different place to accomodate multiple profiles.
composer usability (like publishing)
The "publishing" feature in Communicator stunk. I suppose it was okay if all you ever worked on was a single site.
Moz's composer looks to be leaps and bounds above what was in 4.7x feature wise. There are some major stability issues with it from what I've seen though.
similar pages button
It's in there, as one of the side panel options. Works nicer than the drop down button from 4.7x, and it pulls from the same source.
refresh bookmarks
Haven't a clue what that is. I do know that Moz's bookmark manager is a good bit more functional than what NS 4.7x had. Unfortunately, it is WAY slower.
Ya might try clicking around Moz a bit. Seems that you're missing some of those key things that really in there.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
Regardless of whether or not people use Mozilla like it... I have one big complaint.
:(
Every time I reference people to webstandards.org because their Netscape 4.x browser doesn't render properly, and suggest they upgrade to Netscape 6.x...
Every single one of them comes back and says Netscape 6.x is too slow and buggy.
It seems to me that the target audience of Mozilla is the current users of Netscape, and they can't even convince them to upgrade.
Then again it might have something to do with AOL still pushing Netscape 4.x over 6.x.
Why do most major browsers display "Mozilla/x.x" on their signature including IE?
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011120
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; Q312461)
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 2000) Opera 6.0 [en]
[alk]
Here are the buglists so you can vote for the bugs and add useful comments:
Roaming access
LDAP
Composer
I don't know what the similar pages button is or what refrech bookmakes should do.
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
Mozilla *is* technically (I try to be objective here) still the third best webbrowser for Windows out there, after Opera and IE. Am I complaining over that? No. Why? Opera is ad-based, closed source. IE I don't even need to comment.
I'm sorry, but Mozilla just hasn't grown up, look at the latest milestone. Hit add bookmark and it won't give the current page as default values. That's so basic broken as can be.
Mozilla needs to work more on it's core features, way more. The latest flashy standard people use 5% of the time isn't that important if users grow tired of it doing what they do 95% of the time, and that's how it is now.
Best of luck,
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
What do you expect?
When IE comes with the OS why download a browser?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I'm a bit of an expert at this, and I've been trying a lot of pages. Mozilla fails to support all but the most trivial of Java applets. The exact pieces of the API which are broken is unclear. In my tests, 90% of a random sampling of applets wedge, if not themselves, the entire browser, on page load.
I've been watching this situation for some time, wondering if it would improve.
When the Mozilla people started talking about 1.0, I dug up the email of the Java integration maintainer. Not easy; the OJI page on Mozilla.org is incredibly stale (April 2001!):
http://www.mozilla.org/oji/
I sent him an "are you the guy?" email - he responded, "yes, that's me." Then I sent him an email asking if I could help with efforts to get Applet support up to spec by 1.0. He never wrote back.
As of now, Java is a massive hole in Mozilla. Going to any page with an applet shows the infamous Netscape puzzle piece; clicking on it starts a process to download and install a Java runtime (whether you have one installed or not) which is exceptionally crude even by Netscape standards. You get a popup window with HTML form buttons to select your JVM - one for each "supported" platform (how hard is it to detect OS?) and an extra big empty window with [object Object] popping up above it...
For some time, and continuing in 0.9.8, if you are brave enough to get that far, once you complete the install your browser will crash, and you will still have no Java support when you restart it. This is probably preferable to one previous failure mode, which was an instant application crash every time a page contained Java.
Laugh all you want about applets - this affects a lot of web pages.
If Mozilla for some assinine reason wants to kill Applet support, they need to at least cauterize the wound. As it is now, this is a huge problem that IMNSHO undermines any credibility their 1.0 designation might have.
We're on the road to Tycho.
One of the most important reasons I use Mozilla is because of it's Non-Commercial nature. My biggest gripe with Internet Explorer is that it is a tool for Microsoft to show 'their view' of the Internet.
Enter a wrong URL in the Address bar? By default, Microsoft gets to see where you were tring to go and even presents their search engine which promotes their affliates and advertisers. With it's built in media player, IE is also a key part of Microsofts Digital Rights Management stratagy.
The ablity to customize my browsing experience is important to me. Compeition is also critical for a product to keep growing. If one company owns the browser market, users are the ones who will loose out in the end.
As a developer, features such as 'View this image', 'Open frame in new window', 'View frame source' and tools like the new Javscript Debugger and DOM Viewer make Mozilla my browser of choice when developing web sites.
Sure, Mozilla has a ways to go, but it's getting there, slowly but surely. And at the moment, it's good enough for me to use on a daily basis.
Doesn't "drag'n drop" work with several files?
Huh? I read through the bug and it doesn't sound like IE is doing anything non-conformal.
Now that I read the bug again, I see your point. However, there do exist other instances where IE cuts corners.
Unlike Mozilla, IE 6 doesn't run on Windows 95, and IE 5.5 has a few holes in its CSS2 support.
Will I retire or break 10K?
stupid trolls is dying. this old joke was funny like once but now it is dying...
"better ways of doing things eventually just replace the inferior things" - Linus Torvalds 09-08-07
I work at a web-design company, and the web-designers are starting to realise this. Mozilla is the ONLY browser that gets this close to standards compliance, IE6 is still al LONG way behind. NS 4.7 just plain sucks at modern HTML/CSS; Opera doesn't cut it either. Konqueror is pretty impressive, giving IE a run for it's money.
That may be your opinion, but what's more important is what people use. I wandered into the google zeitgeist page a while ago, and was amazed to how pitifully unimportant anything that isn't IE showed up the in the web browser stats. Mozilla, Netscape6, Galeon, ... all these are lumped together into the steeply declining "Other" line.
So Mozilla may be closest to true standards-compliance, but IE is "standard", and that makes a difference when you are building commercial websites, but can't test against each and every browser.
On my Windows machines, I have IE and Mozilla (using a post0.9.8 nightly), and I still have to rely on IE for several big sites like Yahoo where Mozilla just doesn't show things right.
Is much better than in the US:
http://www.e-janco.com/browser.htm
Oh dear, Microsoft only has partial CSS2 support on Windows 95. Meanwhile, Mozilla has no support for Windows 3.1 or Mac System 7.6 (my real problem).
Hopefully you've got some better advocacy in your arsenal, because it seems like you are really digging here.
>>roaming user
>Not there.
On Windows Mozilla complies with the MS filesystem spec, so you can use the NOS's roaming profile feature. Unix of course works like it always has.
Yeah, there are a lot of informations in this roadmap: ..
- the STABLE fork date.
- the dates of both UNSTABLE and STABLE upcoming releases
- etc
But something actually vital lacks...
Nowhere they mention the date after which mozilla will stop _sucking_a_lot_, _being_slow_ and _crashing_.
The road still seams very very very long, and i think these critical issues should be fixed before opening the 1.0 branch. No products of quality should be that untable and slow, and it might be more reasonable to delay it again.
If you dont believe me, try this nice browser on a 2 or 3 years old computer.
I opened a tab to respond to your post and it took less than a second to do so. The machine is based on a K6-2 500Mhz processor and is running XFree86 4.1.0. The Galeon is 1.0.2 and depends on Mozilla 0.9.7 for it's Gecko. I've had tabs take longer when the other end is a slow pipe but I can't blame that on the UI.
One last thing, I hadn't read all of the top comments but now see that all you have to do to get a 4 or 5 is mention how great Galeon is. Again nothing against it but this is an article about the Moz dev cycle. Any chance there will be any comment which actually talk about this instead how X browser is better? Maybe I dunno know actually have a conversation about where moz is going etc. Sheeh.
Can someone explain exactly how roaming worked in NS 4.X. I'm at IT manager and I'm stuck with IE because I dont understand how NS/Mozilla roaming works and I cant find any documentation. I run a Windows 2000 Server/Pro network with roaing profiles.
-Tim
dillo
where's my moderation points when I need them... I thought it was deja vu, but you're right. This comment in a rip off. (Also says something about the quality of moderations)
Ben Bucksch of Beonex fame has offered to work on the roaming profile support on a tips-for-code basis. See bug 17048 for the background, and bug 124026 for the funding issues.
Looks very promising -- if you want this feature, consider throwing in a few dollars. If this kind of development model turns out to work well, it could be a revolution for large Open Source / Free Software projects.
is this news worthy? For gods sake, it's just an overblown, overbloated and overhyped web browser. Previous people have pointed out that it STILL can't handle simple text boxes correctly. Performance and Mozilla don't belong in the same sentence. And yet most everyone continues to sing it's praises. Again I ask why?
Similar pages?
Hit F9 and configure the 'What's Related' option. It's been there for quite a while.
(Works fine on Win2000 and I'm not gonna reboot to check on the Linux version.)
Morel
... etc. are simply brilliant.
... :-P
...
I truly believe Linus is watching and considering this as part of his (not so secret) retirement plan. Eventually, post 2.6, Linux kernel development will be run like this
"all code hosted on mozilla org requires active ownership"
The poster is not talking about roaming the network, they are talking about roaming the Internet. Netscape 4.5+ has a feature where your netscape user profile can be made available over the Internet, so you can have all of your bookmarks and etc. in one centralized location if you'd like. This feature alone is what keeps a large number of NS4.x users put.
Dissolve... Resolve... Evolve...
NS 4.x touted a different kind of roaming profile than you're talking about. This may help though.
Dissolve... Resolve... Evolve...
But I would like it even better if I would have it in my GNOME (or instead of my GNOME) in a way as IE is in MSwin. Look, it's got all for it: forms, sort of file browsing, mail, calendar (I know, it's depricated, though).
What missed? probably, a project "Gecko Desktop".
Heh, I have tried "clicking around", but it's clearly changing rapidly. Finally found Directory Server under Preferences - just about the last place I looked and hardly very useful. I'm guessing it lets you address mail with it - but just guessing because composer fails to open any more (Mozilla src.rpm 0.9.7 on Redhat 6.2.) I'd like to see it in the addressbook with all my other ldap info. Netscape 4.7 also allowed url locations like ldap://url/basename??sub? to dump everything in your ldap server. Very convenient for info besides simple address. I personally think the browser concept should extend to generic LDAP browsing AND editing.
What's Related - yeah, I guess I did see that before , but I don't usually leave that pane open.
Refresh Bookmarks in netscape 4.7 is in the bookmark editor under View -> Update Bookmarks. A very cool feature which IE never had.
tcboo
I am well aware of this - the fact that I can manually install an OJI-equipped plugin is why I'm able to test anything at all.
You should try this for yourself. Once you do what you suggest, go check out some applets. Yes, the news ticker at java.sun.com works. But try almonst _anything_ more complicated. You can use any of the applet directories... Even as of a few informal tests today, the 90% rule appears still in effect with 0.9.8. Almost no applets of any substance work, and Mozilla/JVM will quickly wedge in a busy loop (in my experiences after < 3 attempts).
Obviously, the fact that the installation glue is so abyssmal is a massive problem of its own, albeit a superficial one. But the API you refer to (the OJI) apparently is itself in a state of serious disrepair.
We're on the road to Tycho.
I have IE6, Opera, and Moz (since 0.94) and really like the latest 0.98 build. I now use it almost exclusively. Looking forward to 1.0.
The installer is not the problem. And the JVM itself (i.e. appletviewer) does not exhibit the massive failures that I observe in Mozilla. The problem (aside from the broken installer) is that OJI itself is broken in some interesting way.
:)
Manually installing the DLL doesn't fix the issue. It just lets you realize how deep a hole you're in.
We're on the road to Tycho.
Despite this, the project just doesn't seem to converge on a rock-solid release. The "with enough eyes, all bugs are shallow" concept has failed here.
Why is this? I think it brings up a basic truth: if the underlying design has problems, the open source process is too incremental to fix them.
("Moderation Totals: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Interesting=3, Overrated=2, Total=8." Biggest spread I've had in a while.)
http://gemal.dk/mozilla/java.html
will tell the complete story on getting Java working on Mozilla
Henrik Gemal
gemal.dk
And drop the windows.net server beta. Allthough the beta is solid, it IS lacking features and code.
WinXP with it's firewall can do NAT for you. As can the RH box ofcourse, but WinXP's is easier to set up (clicking 2 boxes and a button iirc)
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
but removed in the final. Dunno why, perhaps too much of the beta testers complained about that feature. When this happens to a feature at MS normally you won't see it again. :)
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
You can whine all you want, but unless you filled in a bugreport at the MS site, it's nothing more than hot air. Supply a bugreport, give an example where it doesnt work and you'll see it fixed in an updated version. Also: the W3C 'standards' are inconsistent and odd sometimes. CSS is a nice idea, but in the long run, it has to become a definition language how to visualize data (content). HTML shouldn't have become the language to lay out webpages in, since it's not pixel oriented and still has visualization tags.
;).
The IE6 GUI is basic, yes, but it's a browser, not an IDE you live in all day. The links bar is ok, but limited if you want 20 buttons or so
The security issues are related to the fact that the design of the browser wasn't from a sandbox point of view: the sandbox is build later, but some parts have been forgotten, and are fixed as patches, the last one on feb 11th.
What makes me laugh when I see mozilla is that I simply can't understand why I should run a program that uses a nonnative gui renderer. The codebase is so huge I can't image what's in there. It's a HTML parser/renderer for crying out loud! I haven't compared them, but I'm pretty sure the Quake2 sourcecode is smaller. Nuff said.
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Opera, Opera, Opera!
I use it on all platforms. It's a great browser; the only one worth paying for, in my opinion.
Window Cloning is one of the reasons I find IE annoying and presumptuous -- I agree with the poster who said (paraphrasing) "I hit cntrl-N when I want a new window, not a clone."
..."
I would not mind Window cloning as an *option* (control-option-N, say, if that's not a taken combination) but I've never understood this as a default
Could you provide a thought transcript that makes Window Cloning sound desireable? "I'm browsing Website X. Suddenly, I want to have the same page open in a new window
Of course, some people aren't tab fans like I am, and I have trouble explaining why, so probably I'm just missing something with Window Cloning. I just think it's an annoying, inexplicable default setting.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Your comment betrays your ignorance. Using deprecated API's (like sun sound) will get you a CNFE on 1.2... but if you think it's OK for that to make the _browser_ crash, you have no idea what you're talking about.
We're on the road to Tycho.
What would be great here is a mixing of those ideas and evolutions vFolder concept to push open-source far ahead of any commercial web and email programs I know of. -MS2k
is the ability to add your own keyboard commands to any menu item, but holding down the menu and pressing the key combination you want to associate with it. Bam!
I wish more software would pick up on this clever, simple, why-dinna-thinka-that idea.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
http://web.ocpl.org/webpacj/webclient.html - it's the interface to our local library, in Souther California. Works fine in IE, I've yet to see it work in Mozilla. I suspect it's deprecated java that's doing it - but there's the catch - IE only supports an "old" version of java, due to the license dispute. So, do you upgrade your java code to be compliant, yet run a considerable risk of breaking the most widely distributed JVM ? or what? I don't have the answer, but it makes me think of Microsofts spat with java as being even more shrewdly calculated than maybe I suspected...
thanks.
That certainly makes sense, but I didn't know it, simply because GIMP is the only program that I've ever wanted to do that in, and never really thought about it with any other gtk program -- good to know.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
On my game partition, I'm using 98SE with the 95 explorer.exe just to avoid the overhead of IE integration, and it works great too. Nearly 50% faster in realistic benchmarks than another system with slightly faster hardware running stock ME. 98lite rocks - integration sucks.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.