TiVo Service Cost Rising

evil_one writes: "Shortly after the article on ReplayTV mods, comes this story about TiVo cost increases." A 30% increase in the cost of TiVo service will probably affect a lot of readers -- and might just make the hassle of a homebrewed PVR a little more attractive. Of course, TiVo service is what makes a TiVo more attractive than a plain recorder anyhow.

Comments

Service?

[groman]

What is TiVo service anyhow? Is there anything specific in the service that you can't code into a homebrewed version?

Re:Service?

[Galahad2]

Well, I haven't heard of an entirely homemade version of a TiVo. It's a pretty complicated device -- MPEG compression isn't all that easy to do on a chip. Toms recently had an article describing a hard drive hack for it, which explains what a TiVo is pretty well in the introduction. This place also has a pretty good FAQ which answers a bunch of random questions that are likely to come up.

Re:Service?

[jlower]

The service is just the program guide data, downloaded periodically to the TiVo unit.

It's what the TiVo does with the guide data that makes it worthwhile. It lets you set up season passes (shows you want recorded every time they come on), wish lists (shows to keep a watch for), and of course you can view the program data about 99 different ways (by schedule, genre, actor, etc). The software is pretty smart. If a show changes time slot, it'll adjust the recording. If that episode has been recorded in the last 28 days, it'll skip it, and so on.

Although the TiVo runs on Linux, the applications that do all the work are not open source. In addition, the program data is in a proprietary format. You may be able to access and assemble your own guide data but I don't know of any way to get a TiVo to use it.

I'm not crazy about the price increase but will continue to subscribe as it's still easily worth the price. I don't watch much TV but am totally spoiled by TiVo now in that I can watch it whenever I want.

Re:Service?

[Anonymous Coward]

The service fee is related to paying for providing the TiVo dial-up services.

Technically this has five major parts:
- A TiVo provided Internet access dial-up point (which presently is done through UUnet)
- A TiVo provided NTP (Network Time Protocol) server to reset the time on the TiVo
- A web server which provides TiVo software updates
- A web server which provides almost *ALL* the data Zap2It has for the channels you recieve in a format approbate to TiVo (it also provides the TiVolution magazine data)
- A toll-free accessable technical support staff if any of the above does not work correctly

Of the five major items that make up the service, TiVo actually allows four to be used even if TiVo is not presently subscribing. The only piece they with-hold is the Zap2It data despite the fact that they need to still pay to provide the other four major pieces.

Figuring out how to rewrite the CGI scripts used to feed the data to the TiVo and the format of the data is not overly hard. Tridge from the Samba group has done it but has been "kind" enough not to provide details to the public at large. But probably any of the bnetd developers which cloned the Blizzard Battlenet server would also be able to figure out the data structures and protocol of TiVo guide data.

However, the hard part is getting ALL the data. Zap2It does not make everything easily available through their web interface. The TiVo makes use of not only the program names, length and descriptions but also other critical data effects it's functionality. The wish-list feature requires properily formated data of the actors and actresses for each show. The parental controls requires properily formated ratings of each of the shows.

Also, selling the service is a big portion of TiVo's business. Building and selling the hardware is largely Phillips and Sony's cut of the business. The service is the only thing TiVo sells itself to the consumer. Hence, alot of TiVo hackers, like Tridge, tend to avoid discussing attacking this portion of TiVo's business with fear that it will destroy the future of TiVo.

Questions I have however is:
- How much money is being made off TiVo service related advertizing such as the special Lexus menu item which appeared for a while? Why isn't the service advertizing help reduce the cost to subscribing?
- How much of the subscription ends up being payed over to UUnet? Can TiVo provide a discount to those that already have an alternative PPP/Internet dial-up account someplace else (or use TiVo Net through broadband)?

Re:Service?

[pauldy]

Or you could pay for the lifetime service and be done with it. I guess you just prove that some people are to dumb to deal with alternative options.

Re:Service?

[Graspee_Leemoor]

"MPEG compression isn't all that easy to do on a chip. "

And yet there is an abundance of cheap cards for the pc which do it- e.g. Hauppage WinTV PVR.

What you are missing out on is the listings, so you can schedule things other than manually hitting record.

graspee

Re:Service?

[shandrew]

A big portion of the service fee goes to subsidization of the hardware costs.

TiVo can't currently offer discounts to people who don't dial in; there aren't enough users who use their own net connections to make it worthwhile. This may change with version 3 of the software, which will come with support for USB ethernet adapters (for series 1), tivonet boards (for series 2), and ppp over serial.

The advertisement business doesn't seem to be working for TiVo. Certainly if they could get more out of that, they would. However, this is not relevant to the price that TiVo charges. TiVo charges a price based on the maximum profit they think they can achieve; they're a public business.

Re:Service?

[Anonymous Coward]

So why does TiVo have to download the schedule off the net? And reset the time over the net? Why not just do it over the cable lines like the GemStar system does?

My RCA tv sets the time and downloads tv guides without any kind of network connectivity.

Re:Service?

[amuro98]

For your Tivo to download the data over your cable line, that would mean that your cable provider is broadcasting that data, right?

What do you think would be easier (and cheaper) for Tivo to do?

1: Convince every cable provider in the nation to please, please, please send this data over their cables - which won't do a darn thing for those customers using a stand-alone unit with a satellite or rabbit ears.

2: Provide the service themselves via internet and dialup outlets.

Tivo depends on 'calling home' for a bit more than just setting the clock. It also downloads updated schedules, as well as other bits of information such as the network and programming highlights.

Re:Service?

[4of12]

The service is good, but here's one way to make it better:

It has small increments you can use to start early or record late for various programs.

That logic, though, gets fscked when recording programs back-to-back on the same channel. It shouldn't.

Re:Service?

[amuro98]

The service isn't just the TV guide data.

It also enables the main features of the Tivo - such as the season pass. Many of the features rely on the database built from the scheduling information. Otherwise, the Tivo is essentially just a VCR that uses a hard drive instead of video tape.

Meanwhile, the service fee allows me to:
* Never worry about when a show is on.
* Never see reruns (tell a season pass "new episodes only" and that's what you'll get.)
* Record shows based on various keyword criteria (eg. tell it "James Bond" and it'll find any show or movie on any channel that contains those words.)

I rarely access the schedule directly...why bother? I've usually got plenty of "good stuff" already recorded. And if I hear about a new show or something I want recorded, it's easier to simply search by title, instead of channel/time, anyways.

Any good resources rolling your own?

[groove10]

Just wondering... Is there decent support for TV-in cards under Linux? What UI issues would you be dealing with? Anyone created their own? Got any shots?

Re:Any good resources rolling your own?

[d2ksla]

Hmm, kinda. The parts are there, but no-one has put them together in a neat package yet. That's probably since Linux video software has really taken off in just the last 6 months.

There's mplayer which is a great player for any video-format out there. It can even play DVD's, although it doesn't have menu support like Ogle. It can also rip DVD:s to MPEG-4 (a.k.a DivX) using a couple of different encoders. Xvid is my favorite open-source MPEG-4 encoder, it's also got good reviews on Doom9 (good place for DivX info!).

For the TV-in recording part you can use a $50 WinTV card and the Video4Linux drivers. On top of that you need an audio-video capture application that can use encoders such as Xvid and Lame to encode to MPEG-4 (video) and MP3 (audio). I use NVrec. If you try the NVrec suite, use the DIVX4rec app (with the Xvid library instead of divx4linux which isn't maintained anymore). On my P-III 500MHz I can compress 29.97 Hz (NTSC) 320x240 in real-time to 800 kbit/s (video) + 80 kbit/s (audio). It takes about 5 hours to make a one-pass encoding of a DVD, so with a faster CPU it's probably possible to do real-time de-interlacing and encoding of 640x480 video.

A drawback is that NVrec is a command-line app for recording, I'm working on a patch for real-time preview on Matrox G400 TV-out. Or if you have a fast enough computer you might be able to run mplayer on the file as it is being recorded. This would allow for Tivo-like pause and resume. It might be a problem with AVI files from NVrec though since I don't think they're streamable.

Now, to put all of this together you need some kind of control application. That's not really that hard to write compared to all the other pieces (mplayer, xvid, nvrec). I've been working on one for the last couple of months, and have an alpha version that is usuable. It only supports the Matrox G400 for TV-out, and is a little crude, but it works good enough that I have it hooked up to my TV for everyday use. It's controllable by a remote control (see Lirc), using a very simple text-menu system to view tv, play avi/mpeg/mp3/dvd, record tv-in and rip DVD's. I'm getting ready to put it up on Sourceforge as Freevo within the next couple of weeks.

The application is written in Python which is great for stuff like this. Once the basic stuff is done, it might be cool to make a plugin architecture where you could interface to other stuff. For instance, with OSD (on screen display), it is easy to add things like new mail notification while you're watching TV. Or new Slashdot headlines, ICQ chat notif, phone caller ID interface, www control, etc. And, of course, an interface to some kind of tv-guide.

I haven't really found any other complete applications like this. Not that I've looked that hard, I'm always looking for an excuse to write software. mplayer might end up with all these feaures eventually, it is improving at an incredible rate at the moment.

Re:Any good resources rolling your own?

[Lumpy]

A drawback is that NVrec is a command-line app for recording, and this makes it a better app than any of the other X-junk.

Why would anyone want to cripple their home-brew PVR with a recording app that requires X,Gnome or KDE and lost of other eye-candy bloat? Hell Nvrec gives me the ability to make a TiVoesque server in my basement on a horribly slow and inefficent P-II333 (Gawd, anyone use this crippled old delapoated stuff anymore? --JK)
to record my shows, and I select them from a web browser on my webpad for viewing, adding what to record, etc...

I hope that Nvrec never ever will have a X interface... Command line is perfect.. If you want an X interface, make a program that controls NVrec and leave the bloat of a GUI away from my favorite linux recording program.

(Note this is why Mplayer is better than any of the X players.. No bloat.

Re:Any good resources rolling your own?

[Lumpy]

Oh you are wrong as it only supports the Matrox for Tv out.

mplayer will happily use a Hollywood+ or Creative DXR3 mpeg decoder card. and that will increase the quality of your video out abut 10 fold.

Re:Any good resources rolling your own?

[d2ksla]

Why would anyone want to cripple their home-brew PVR with a recording app that requires X,Gnome or KDE and lost of other eye-candy bloat?

You're right, one shouldn't do that! You're missing my point, which is that NVrec can't display what it is recording. Which is convenient in a lot of cases, I use this to see that I'm recording the right stuff, or to watch a show and also tape it for my wife, or watch another channel using an RF switch for my TV, etc. So that is why I've made a patch which takes the captured frame inside NVrec and sends it directly to the framebuffer using the Matrox back end scaler (doesn't use much CPU). I'm hoping to have it cleaned up and sent to the NVrec maintainer soon.

If you want an X interface, make a program that controls NVrec and leave the bloat of a GUI away from my favorite linux recording program.

The application I'm working on uses the framebuffer directly on a Matrox G400 on the pixel-level, no external libraries at all. I'm thinking about rewriting that part to use mplayer in some sort of command-line slave-mode to display menus etc on whatever video hardware is available, but the point still is that it doesn't require even X11!

Oh you are wrong as it [mplayer] only supports the Matrox for Tv out.

I didn't claim that! I was talking about my control application. mplayer supports a ridiculous amount of video hardware, which is why it would be nice to use it to display OSD menus.

Other video cards: I haven't tried them, I'm sure some are better than Matrox G400 for MPEG decoding and video out. But the G400 is good enough for me, and I'd say that the weakest link is not the G400 in my system, it's the quality of the video input signal from the WinTV capture card.

Re:Any good resources rolling your own?

[lavebug]

Yes how about free tivo service for life including all chanels including PPV. Canadian hackers can even let you chose how your setup and navigation will look like you need to send them the pics with sertain resolution. It is kind of expancive right know, but it will com down soon, afterall it is one time pay and free for life there. If you buying with receiver its $699-799 depending on receiver or $299 to program your receiver. And yes it's not leagal. I'll post their site link tommorow.

Re:Any good resources rolling your own?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you don't need to fly off the handle. IT doesn't have to be Gnome/KDE/X11. You know, people had great GUIs, faster than those in use today, back in the 1980s with 7 MHz processors. GUI doesn't necessarily mean bloat.

Distrubted?

[Peridriga]

Couldn't one create a distributed PC client that would compile the TV listings from around the world (Maybe leeching content off of TVGuide.com).

Change the dial-up information to your dial-up account (if anyone still has one of those... and if you don't $9.95 for NetZero is still cheaper than TiVO or ReplayTV's subscription costs).

Just the added note... Could you imagine a beauwolf cluster of TiVO's?

Re:Distrubted?

[KarmaBitch]

Does anyone know how the dial-up information is stored in TiVO?... Is it encrypted or is it open text?.. If it's open text then wouldn't the DMCA not apply to the subscription information stored? So couldn't you change the dial-up number or user info?... Could you set up a user-name sharing system?.. Everyone pays $4 a month and given a shared user ID? Distribute the ID's to 7 people... And all schedule dial-up on a different day each week?

Re:Distrubted?

[VValdo]

I've always thought you could use some kind of distributed system to indicate when commercials are on, so you can stop recording.

So if like 90% of the users in your area say there's a commercial going, drop some kind of "commercial start/stop" marker.

You could do the same thing w/listings-- compile the TV guide the same way the CDDB was originally populated, ie everyone contributes a tiny part and everyone benefits.

Re:Distrubted?

[dimator]

Couldn't one create a distributed PC client that would compile the TV listings from around the world (Maybe leeching content off of TVGuide.com).

Even more interesting than that idea is that you don't need to chew on HTML to get the listings. See XMLTV.

Now that I have some free time on my hands, I think I'm going to start that home PVR project based on XMLTV. You don't need to sacrifice useability either, as there is code out there for on-screen menuing. Nice.

Re:Distrubted?

[Anonymous Coward]

too bad there's already another XMLTV format that came out long ago and has been patented and is currently in use. The company you speak of is most definitely infringing and will most likely be sued out of existence.

Re:Distrubted?

[Anonymous Coward]

ping god
ping: unknown host god

ping heaven.org
PING heaven.org (66.101.6.76): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 66.101.6.76: icmp_seq=0 ttl=237 time=170.7 ms
64 bytes from 66.101.6.76: icmp_seq=1 ttl=237 time=177.7 ms

Re:Distrubted?

[Anonymous Coward]

Imperial College being sued out of existence, that would take some doing. Besides, British patent law doesn't recognize formula or software data formats, certainly not XML.

Re:Distrubted?

[Cramer]

While technically possible, it's also very easy to detect. The units would be presenting different viewing habbits, season passes, etc. and downloading overlapping guide data. It's pretty easy to stop the tivo from sending "backend" data, but the overlap in guide data is a road flare the size of a nuke.

In the end, it's pretty easy to steal. It's just combersome and certainly not worth the effort.

Re:Distrubted?

[Alien Being]

a few thoughts...

tvguide.com doesn't even have the correct channel lineup for the ATT cable system in my 'hood even though it's linked to from the att website.

Why don't they make listings easy to get?

If i were the president of Acme Fishing Tackle, spending big money for an ad on "Bass-O-Rama", i'd sure want the folks near Lake Tittikaka to be aware of the program. Well distributed listings would get me a bigger bang for my $.

The ad guys don't try to maximize bang/buck. They go for buck/bang. Maybe they don't want the viewer to actually see the program. I wonder what kind of listing info Nielsen households get.

The Pay/View business should benefit from open listings, no? Will we see a nicely designed XML format for pay/view only?

the tv industry is (choose one):
A. Lame
B. Lazy
C. Devious
D. All of the above

Re:Distrubted?

[ahde]

that' lego porn is messed up, but some of the drawings are pretty cool.

Re:Distrubted?

[Graspee_Leemoor]

"So if like 90% of the users in your area say there's a commercial going, drop some kind of "commercial start/stop" marker."

Until someone catches on and starts up a group of friends who all mark a commercial as being on when it's the big final action scene in a movie, so you miss it...

graspee

Guess what else people will do?

[fcrick]

Seems like this should spure a rise in the hacked TiVo market...I've seen it done. You can get free Tivo and DirectTV for life with a little technical know-how and some extra components. Copy-protection going right out the window with DirectTV/TiVo comin in for free...

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Scoria]

[sarcasm]

Because it's more than fair to pirate a satellite signal. After all, they intrude on my property by broadcasting!

[/sarcasm]

This is the most common argument given by satellite pirates. $50/mo. for over three-hundred channels is not going to break the average consumer, especially those with enough money to be investing in satellite hacking equipment.

Guess where DirecTV receives the funding to launch their satellites? That's right, the consumer who pays for their service. I'm not an advocate of the DMCA or SSSCA. In fact, I am strongly opposed to both, as well as the latest copy protection methods. However, by pirating DirecTV, you're merely depriving a person like yourself of an income.

That's right, freeloader. CEOs aren't the ones laid off due to lack of funding. You aren't benevolent to society; if anything, you're keeping the cost of DirecTV higher. With more subscribers, they can provide you with more content and keep costs lower.

Inevitably, somebody will respond to this comment with "how is this any different with the RIAA?" It is. DirecTV is merely a content provider; they don't generate it (except for channels 100, 200, 201, and the other DirecTV customer information channels) and you certainly get something for your money when you subscribe (instead of the RIAA, where you pay $18 for a CD that costs $1 to manufacture comprised of filler plus one single that you actually like). Also, my DTV receiver doesn't restrict me in any way from recording my favorite TV shows.

In conclusion, as a DirecTV subscriber since 1997, I've experienced nothing but friendly, competent people working at their company. People who are negligably different from yourself; people who certainly aren't deservant of losing their primary source of income because of thousands of penny pinching freeloaders.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I strongly doubt the number of people stealing satellite is anywhere near the number of people paying for it. The people I know that steal satellite are all under 20 years old. It's not like they would have bought the service had they not been stealing it.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Anonymous Coward]

some of us LIKE screwing over large corporations. The DTV hacking community is going strong, despite efforts to spite us. Guess what? DTV is still doing pretty well. As far as lining the CEOs pockets with boatloads of cash, the hacking community has a 'code of ethics' so to speak. This code relates directly to the most common problem that the hacking community faces: blacklisting.

The smartcard with proprietary ASIC that sits in the DSS reciever has a CAM/ZKT, which is basically a unique identifier for that card. You can get the card's memory, commonly referred to as 'BIN' off the internet. That BIN contains a ZKT and CAM. Obviously, if you can get it on the net, so can the boys at DTV. This specific identifier will then most likely become 'blacklisted' and cause the DTV reciever to say 'call ext 745 for subscription information', which means the card is no longer valid. Personally, I have kept a subscription to DTV up, so that my BIN on my card is valid. If i were to let it lapse, I'd be screwed.

The primary reason the boys at DTV send down countermeasures is to combat dealers; dealers being people who sell the neccessary software/hardware combination to facilitate signal theft. DTV doesn't give a flying crap (as history has shown) about the small time person who has enough of a brain to construct an ISO7816 programmer and mess with the card/emulate the card.

So take your high and mighty attitude elsewhere, as long as the company thrives, and there are people who have enough soldering skills or electronics knowledge to construct the necessary hardware, there will always be signal theft. Its just the way it is.

Oh, and on another front... what about the canadians? Should they be screwed out of watching american TV just because their dumbass government says they wont license US broadcasters signals in canada? I'll bet a large portion of slashdot's readers like TechTV (channel 354)... Until THIS YEAR, the canadian geeks had no other way to get TechTV other than to pirate DTV.

Another legimate reason to fiddle with your subscription is to obtain local channels. If I lived way out in the boondocks, and a big metal antenna still wont get me my locals very well, but i can get them. DTV's agreements say that if you can get them with an antenna, you may not have them on your DTV. but with a little fiddling, this is easily solved.

My opinion happens to be that if you keep a subscription to the service, you aren't do that much of a diservice to DTV. If you aren't smart enough to be able to maintain the setup yourself, you shouldn't be doing it anyway. Keep it under your hat, and enjoy.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Ziviyr]

Because it's more than fair to pirate a satellite signal. After all, they intrude on my property by broadcasting!

Its not quite running into your home yelling and bashing your poodle in the head. But there is something to that. Who else FELT when the power grid collapsed and came back up so long ago?

Can't say it isn't a form of intrusion, just a very minor one affecting ... lots of people.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an interesting point. I stole DirecTV when I was in college. Time passed. One day, I decided I wanted more TV than cable provided me. I got a DirecTV system, because that's what I had used in the past. Today, I don't have the time to deal with ECMs and stuff, but I have the money to pay for the service. So I do.

Of course, I know a lot of other people who could care less about the tech, and could pay for the service, but still steal it. "Steal." Such an ugly word.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm - The guys I know stealing it are all late-30s or 40s who enjoy flexing their obsolete MSDOS skills.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[IronChef]

This is the most common argument given by satellite pirates. $50/mo. for over three-hundred channels is not going to break the average consumer, especially those with enough money to be investing in satellite hacking equipment.

I do not want to get into the piracy argument, but I do want to point out that sat hacking gear is not expensive: you can start hacking echostar for less than $50, assuming you have a computer to maintain the gadget with... so you can't fairly say that $50/month is comparable to the cost of the hacker gear. It's not, it's a hell of a lot more. There is a substantial savings for pirates. (though in the case of Echostar maintaining a minimal sub makes things easier.)

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[daniel2000]

Don't know about DirecTV itself, but acording to this article:

http://gilder.com/americanSpectatorArticles/Lessig /Control.htm

Cable TV was born stealing the content of others and re-selling that content to consumers. Suppliers of cable services would set up an antenna, capture the commercial broadcasts made by television stations, and then resell those broadcasts to their customers. The copyright holders did not like this "theft." Twice they asked the Supreme Court to shut it down. Twice the Court said no. So it fell to Congress to strike a balance between cable TV and copyright holders. Congress in turn followed the model set by player pianos: Cable TV had to pay for the content it broadcast, but the content holders did not have an absolute right to grant or deny the right to broadcast its content.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[fcrick]

In my defense, I was simply pointing out the inevitable, not condoning the actions of people who participate in these practices.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have to agree, there is some serious computer and electronic skills that you must understand before hacking those cards. I haven't even figured it out yet.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Jay Mirioashi]

Now mind you, I have no great desire to have more channels whether or not I could get them for free. It is insulting, sitting in front of that box, being fed a steady stream of well, whatever someone else decides they want me to see.

That said, on a common sense level it seems absolutely absurd that if a signal is being broadcast to my house, that I should not be able to do whatever I choose with it. I do not believe that anyone, upon considering the nature of this, can have a reasonable expectation that their signal will not be used without their explicit acknowledgement.

If I throw naked pictures of myself (humour me) onto all the lawns in my neighborhood, then it would be absurd to think that I could have a reasonable expectation that people would not look at them, or not do whatever they wished with them.

Yes, I quite fully realize that the grouns for laws allowing this are largely economic. Though the resource is abundant, the laws create an artificial scarcity. However, I think that it is a blow at basic human dignity to say that I can not recieve and do whatever I wish with that signal. Yes, I will accept on economic grounds that I should not sell completed equipment whose sole purpose is to "pirate" a signal. However, because I am a human being, and because I truly do have private property, I should be able to, for my own personal (or family) use, create a device to recieve and decode that signal.

Yet of course, I would rather choke myself to death with a handful of tacks than bring that crap into my home.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Jay Mirioashi]

When I say, "I should be able," I do also mean, "under no threat of legal penalty."

Is it truly that difficult to implement an editable comment system?

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Jay Mirioashi]

Yes, that's right. Mod me down as offtopic, but leave the parent, that is itself just as offtopic at 4-insightful.

Moderating is not to be done on the basis of promoting your own opinion.

In this case, given that both I and the parent are equally offtopic, moderating ethics demand that you moderate the parent down first, given that at 4-insightful, their display of offtopic'ness has to be viewed by those purposely browsing at 3+ to avoid such discussions.

If you disagree with my opinion, then reply to me and tell my why you disagree with it.

If you first moderate the parent down, then moderate me down also.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Wavicle]

DTV's agreements say that if you can get them with an antenna, you may not have them on your DTV.

You're only a couple months behind the times. That's not too bad I suppose. You might want to update your information because you're not knowledgable about recent changes in legislation by the government that affected service for DirectTV.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[Jay Mirioashi]

>DirecTV is merely a content provider...and you >certainly get something for your money when you >subscribe (instead of the RIAA, where you pay >$18 for a CD that costs $1 to manufacture >comprised of filler plus one single that you >actually like).

Do you wish us to legislate rights based upon the current opinion of who (though equal in all other respects) should have them and who should not have them?

Or is it instead the case that we should see, as you do, that not decoding a signal being sent into your house is simply the morally logical (yes, that is what you imply) thing to do?

Your statement implies that you would be fine in not paying for content from the RIAA who has distribution rights to it, but that you do (by appeal to emotion) support paying for the content that DirectTV has distribution rights to.

Re:Guess what else people will do?

[blair1q]

Haven't the courts upheld that particular piece of "sarcasm"?

Or did they turn around on it again, being essentially a tool of The Man?

--Blair

Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[ncc74656]

...for a limited time, the cost of a lifetime subscription has dropped from $250 to $200. Maybe they're trying to get people to switch to lifetime service. It potentially means less money for TiVo in the long run, but a shot in the arm right now.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[Spire]

The $199 lifetime subscription promotion is valid only for units that had an active monthly subscription to the TiVo service as of 11:59pm PST on February 25, 2002 -- the day before the price increase was initially announced on the TiVo Community Forum by TiVo spokesperson Richard Bullwinkle.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[vukv]

yeah, so basically since I paid my subscription for past 2 years, they now want me to pay another 200$ or 13$/month for it.. more money for tivo!

I have no issues with slowly looking at replaytv 4000, it owns anway, add the season pass and I am in...

As to "TiVO service", its only tv guide listings, plus ads...and bug fixes... thats it. There are plenty of TV's and VCR's (80%) that now have free lifetime Tv Guide + data which is basically the same thing (tivo used to have guid ppl in house as well, but they fired all 60 of them 3 months ago)... if they can offer it for free, for lifetime, without any ads, I doubt it is really expensive for TiVO to do the same thing... so basically, TiVO is milking their users... which is fine really, we are here to be milked, but at the same time, in the other corner we have ReplayTV 4000, with digital audio support (on cable), networking features and few other neat tricks that make it ohh so much interesting...

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[IronChef]

How is the Season Pass different than Replay's "record every episode of this show" or "record any show with X in the name, description, actors or directors?"

I know Tivo is smart enough to not record reruns. Replay can't do that, at least not the 2000/3000 series. I don't know about the 4000s.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[Anonymous Coward]

A lifetime subscription to a television service?

Television doesn't want to communicate to you as a person. It wants
to bypass you entirely, and get right at your brain stem. Pushing
all of your buttons at once, hoping that at least one will cause
you to get up and buy something. You can't get away from it
by not watching commercials because it's interwoven with
the programming and even the news. A long running scheme
has been for a producer of something or another to pay
fly by night scientists to do studies that cast their
product in a favorable light. Then for weeks and months the radio,
television and newspapers will be sprinkled with "Studies show,
the product A is Good For the Heart!" Never mind the studies were
funded entirely by the company selling the product, never mind
the scientific method wasn't followed, and that the company
has the scientists under NDA, allowing any amount of creative
and tainting ommission to occur. A choreogrphed ballet of lies performed just for
you, so you will be better informed about product X.

The information you get from television is GARBAGE.
it's trash, it's dogshit. Don't be a bottom feeder.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[Spire]

The TiVo software has a feature called the Season Pass Manager, which is basically conflict management. It's a screen with a list of all your Season Passes that lets move shows up or down in priority. Shows that have higher priority will always take precedence over shows that have lower priority when they're both on at the same time.

Season Passes have other features as well, such as the 28-day rule and "keep at most".

The 28-day rule ensures that the same episode of a show (or in the case of movies, the same movie) will never be recorded twice in 28 days. This is useful for programs that shown multiple times a day.

"Keep at most" forces the TiVo recorder to never have more than N episodes of a certain show recorded. For example, you may have a Season Pass to the daily 7:00 news, but if you're gone for several days, you don't want several days worth of old news backed up on your recorder. So you set that season pass to "Keep at most 1". That way, only the latest episode of the Season Pass will occupy space on your recorder.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[dougmc]

If you look at their policy on their web page --

TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.

Lovely! I can pay $200 today, and the service can disappear tomorrow -- because 1) the company folded or 2) because they felt like it. If they do fold, I doubt that whomever acquires the bits will continue offering service `for free' just because we paid `somebody else'.

And according to what other posters said, it sounds like they WILL be going out of business, sooner rather than later (because they're losing lots of money.)

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[chrysrobyn]

Holy cow! Do the math!

I just grabbed my TI-83 calculator, told it to assume the average TiVo customer was with them for 3 years (? I've had my VCR 5 years), told it that lifetime subscriptions (also 3 years -- they don't transfer to new units purchased last I checked) are going for $200, or that you can pay $12.95/month. What's the interest rate they need to have on that $200 to make the same amount of money?

73%. I'll take that any day.

Now, with the old system, which i think was $9.95/month or $250 for lifetime, that was only 27%. Reasonable for a legit company.

When lifetime rates go back up to $250, to equal that ROI they'd have to get 50%. Only.

Let's throw away the 3 year assumption. It's pretty rough on the company, possibly.

Say they get the credit card 9.99% that's flogging my mailbox now: the $250 and $12.99/month goes almost 21 months.

I realize that promotions that generate customers are hard to quantify in terms of ROI, but just looking at these numbers tells you what it's worth to them to get those lifers (if they think you'll have the same unit for over 2 years or so). If you really like TiVo, and aren't sure where to go, it's certainly worth your while to get the lifetime subscription (if you're looking at more than 21 months or so). TiVo apparently thinks it's worth theirs, too. If, on the other hand, you're sticking with them for less than 21 months (or will purchase a new unit between now and then), go monthly. Even if they raise their rates to $14.95/month tomorrow, that's still almost 18 months out to break even with $250 lifetime. Of course, if your only other debt is a home mortgage at 6.99% (lucky you!), the breakeven point for 250/$12.95 is 20 months out.

My parents have had the same Hitachi VCR since 1992. If they had gone lifetime then ($200 promotion) and avoided the $12.95 a month (ignoring the fact that TiVo wasn't around then), a TiVo like company would have to get a 83% return on them.

How long do you think they estimate the average customer sticks around? You're really handing them money if you give them $200 for a lifetime and it dies after the 1 year warranty. Even a 0% investment would pay the $200/$12.95 tradeoff in 15 months (12 months is actually a -51% interest rate!).

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you take into account that "lifetime" means your TiVo's lifetime (not yours), $200 doesn't seem that cheap, does it?

Of course a TiVo box lasts a long time, but it will eventually break beyond repair.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[LazyBoy]

If you take into account that "lifetime" means your TiVo's lifetime (not yours), $200 doesn't seem that cheap, does it? Of course a TiVo box lasts a long time, but it will eventually break beyond repair.

Duh. $200 / $12.95 = less than 16 months.
Do you think it will last that long?

-Tivo lifetime subscriber since 3/2000, YMMV

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[Lumpy]

remember that lifetime means the lifetime of that Tivo unit... as deemed by them. and I bet that their definition of lifetime is less than 5 years.

Lifetime subs are a scam. everyone knows this.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[nelsonal]

All it has to be is more than 15 months and you save money. Even assuming an 5% interest rate on your loan to them, which is what a pre-paid subscription is, it would only take 16 months for you to come out ahead. This looks to me like TiVo is hurting for cash, and can raise quite a bit quickly. Just using your estimate you would save almost $600 if the subscription lasted 5 years. Which isn't a bad return at all.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[seichert]

Ignoring the time value of money figure that $200 is equal to 15.4 months of Tivo service. This is a good deal if you believe :
1) Tivo will be in business in 16 months
2) You will not upgrade to a new recorder

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[pauldy]

Uhm, beavis did you miss the short bus today. Put them side-by-side and the replay 4000 hardly owns as you put it. The only benefit in the replay is the broadband connection. Also your comments of Sonic doing the updates for free scream ignorance. They hardly do it for free if you look at their prices you see the price for the service is built into the cost of the units themselves. That's why they seem so much more expensive than Tivos for comparable features at first glance.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[pauldy]

I can't believe they put something like that in their service agreement and put that all service fees are non refundable. It saddens me to see that and one can only hope they wake up and offer something a bit more fair with reguards to the being able to terminate your account.

As for the last part of your post I don't think that with a cast flow of 1 million a month they are going to be going under any time soon. they might have to restructure to meet demands of the service and restructure their own expectations of market performance but it's a bit domesdayish to say a company that has show itself to be so strong in this industry is "going under".

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[pauldy]

I'm thinking you are the poster child for needing to stay in school.

249.95 / 9.95 ~= 26 months which I'm closing in on this figure with my current Tivo. Now looks at it at 199.95 nad your aproxamatly 20 months I'm over that now. This hardly makes for a scam just more choices for us.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[amuro98]

I don't see it as Tivo trying to milk more money from their users. I do, however, see people lacking math skills...

You've been paying the monthly fee ($10/mo) for two years, which means you've paid $240 in fees so far.

HOWEVER, if you had just gone with the one-time lifetime fee back then, you would have paid $200 once, and STILL be covered.

Even if you ditched your Tivo today, you would have saved $40.

IMHO, it seems to me Tivo is all but whacking people over the head screaming "Hey you! The lifetime fee is CHEAPER!"

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[amuro98]

Read the article next time (or at least the /. description...)

Tivo is raising the monthly fee from $9.95, to $12.95.

Re:Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though...

[pauldy]

Read my post a few times and maybe you will better understand it and my reasoning for using the old monthly rate instead of the new one. Seemed obvious to me but obviously this is lost on some.

Re:Its called OS "Ex" you dickwads

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm.... OS X v 10.1 on the web site

OS ex version ten point one sounds a lot better than OX ten version ten point one. The latter sounds horribly redundant.

What about features?

[TeddyR]

I was just looking at the TiVO web page recently and noticed that they were pushing the version 2 of the recorder. (With USB ports for future expansion)

My question is why not Firewire?

Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives. They can also make the device communicate with a PC easier where it acts as a "camera"; of course these very same suggestions might get them into "hotter" water with the Media companies..

If they had a Tivo that had the firewire features, the rate increase may be worth it... but as of now... nope...

Re:What about features?

[Anonymous Coward]

because consumers don't generally get firewire outside of the macintosh world. and this is horribly off topic anyway

Re:What about features?

[martissimo]

Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives. They can also make the device communicate with a PC easier where it acts as a "camera"; of course these very same suggestions might get them into "hotter" water with the Media companies..


they cant add a port to connect to a PC for just that reason, it makes them a *obvious* circumvention device at that point, and franly they have allready been takin a bit of heat as it is.

if you do want to though, it is possible to add an ethernet card to your tivo and just plug that into your box, just search on google, wont take ya but a few minutes to find a full step by step walkthru

Re:What about features?

[ez76]

Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives. They can also make the device communicate with a PC easier where it acts as a "camera"; of course these very same suggestions might get them into "hotter" water with the Media companies..

If they had a Tivo that had the firewire features, the rate increase may be worth it... but as of now... nope...

So let me get this straight ... you're eager to hook up hundreds (thousands?) of dollars of digital video equipment and storage devices to your Tivo so you can use it as an overdeveloped video database, but an additional $3 per month for the service is too rich for your blood?

Do you own a Tivo?

Re:What about features?

[ssheth]

Most USB ports sold today can support USB 2.0.
They primarily need the proper software driver support (from the Tivo OS).

Compare:

USB 1.1: 12 mbps,
USB 2.0: 480mbps.
FireWire: 400mbps.

So USB 2 could quite easily be used for streaming to external storage devices, etc. if Tivo wants to enable that support. Whether Tivo does enable USB 2.0 or not is another matter all together.

Re:What about features?

[quintessent]

Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives.

Yes, but I think Tivo would rather limit what you can do, so you have to buy another Tivo when you want more space. Of course, they haven't managed to prevent swapping hard drives.

Re:What about features?

[Pope]

Why oh why do people always forget that Firewire scales as well?
100, 200 and 400 Mbits/s, today
800, 1600 and 3200+ Mbits/s tomorrow.

Re:What about features?

[ssheth]

The point of the comment was not to compare the merits of Firewire vs. USB but just illustrate that USB 2.0 will have plenty of headroom to stream digital video if Tivo allows it. Sure, Firewire will scale up as well but even its current 400 mbps is not needed just to stream video.

Re:What about features?

[truesaer]

Not many people have firewire. They would severely limit the market for their products (which frankly is already limited in terms of connecting to a computer). I don't know if this is possible, but could they have somehow set things up for future support of USB2? This would then be 1) useful for many consumers as is, and 2) upgradable to a much higher speed that competes with firewire.

Re:What about features?

[eyeball]

My question is why not Firewire?

I know this is getting horribly off topic, but needs to be addressed. One of the reasons might be that Apple charges a licensing royalty per port.

Re:What about features?

[Leto-II]

Apple charges a licensing royalty per port

Yes, but only if you call it firewire. You don't have to pay Apple anything as long as you call it IEEE 1394. My motherboard that came with fire... err IEEE 1394 was very careful not to say the f word anywhere in it's documentation. It's all IEEE 1394. Microsoft does the same thing. They don't call the port a firewire port, they call it a IEEE 1394 port.

Re:What about features?

[TheSnakeMan]

Actually, as a Tivo subscriber, I got an email a month or two ago about new units that they will be shipping later this year (and of course a "special deal" on them), and the units are going to have USB ports on the back of them.

The email stated that these ports were going to be for peripheral attachment, but it did not specify what those peripherals were going to be.

Re:What about features?

[Sloppy]

they cant add a port to connect to a PC for just that reason, it makes them a *obvious* circumvention device at that point

If it would be a circumvention device, then what would it circumventing?

There isn't any law in existence (yet) that they would be in trouble with. Not even DMCA.

Re:What about features?

[Anonymous Coward]

They would get firewire stuff if that's what they needed to do something.

You act like everyone hates firewire, just because it's firewire. And that just ain't so.

If your Tivo has firewire out, and your video camera has firewire in, and there isn't any video camera on the market that has USB video in, would you still hold out for USB stuff because you don't want your friends to see the empty boxes that way "firewire" on 'em and think you're a closet Mac user? Get a grip.

Re:What about features?

[Arkham]

The fee for FireWire is only $1 per port. That's it. I don't think that would seriously affect the price of a $700 box (Series 2).

Firewire is the standard now. The ports on Series2 TiVos are USB, but not USB2. So they're limited to 11MBps, which is too slow for data storage. It's mainly useful for easily adding a network adapter, but you can do that to old TiVos already using TivoNet.

what are we gonna do about it? tivo needs the $...

[jaredcat]

I've been a Tivo subscriber for a while... I was pretty pissed when I received an email from TiVo about the rate increase, but its not like there is anything I can do about it. So why piss and moan?

There are basically two options available for me as a TiVo subscriber: $9.95/month (now $12.95/month), or $199 (or $249 off-season) for a lifetime subscription, which is the lifetime of the TiVo, not the subscriber. So of course, it only makes sense to get the month-to-month subscription, as who can predict if they will still have the same TiVo box 15-19 months from now?

Also, TiVo is BLEEDING money. They have never had a profitible quarter-- losing between $50 MILLION and $34 MILLION net for every quarter that they have posted so far. According to their published #'s, without some serious additional financing, TiVo will be out of cash in a year. I can't really blame them for increasing their service fees...

Homebrew PVR?

[redcliffe]

Anyone know of any howtos for this? And how much is it likely to cost as compared to a standard PC. Thanks,

David

Re:Homebrew PVR?

[Anonymous Coward]

A cheap PC with a Hauppage WinTV PVR PCI works great for 'pausing' live tv and just recording normal shows. Work under windows, havent ever tried it under linux. Nice remote too.

Has to be Ten

[Anonymous Coward]

Because when they get to the next major version, no one's going to call it OS Ex Eye, that would just be dumb. Therefore, it's OS Ten, just like OS Nine before it, and OS Eleven after it.

I know, I know, don't feed the trolls. Sorry.

It's probably Disney's fault...

[Anonymous Coward]

After Disney bought Senator Chihiro no Kamikakushi, TiVo had to make sure they had the cash to stand up to all the new lawsuits Disney could bring forth with the laws they can now buy :)

Lifetime Subscriptions limiting people ...

[Anonymous Coward]

They are allowing people to get lifetime subscriptions for $200 for the next month, however, these are locked to the UNIT itself. If you ever upgrade to a new unit, or go with DirectTivo (Satellite TV version of the hardware), or your system simply dies (It DOES have moving parts within in.), you are SOL. You cannot go buy another one and plan to move your lifetime subscription. This is really going to screw people over left and right. I give Tivo another year before they go belly up for forcing their own avid users to lose their money to systems that will last at most, 4-5 years before the hardware fails. I have owned my Tivo for 2 years now and it has been replaced completely twice from various failures. My warrenty is void, and I am stuck on what I should do. I may just drop from the whole PVR business. It is completely unfair to the customer.

It sucks great innovations get destroyed like this.

Re:Lifetime Subscriptions limiting people ...

[MrPerfekt]

I give Tivo another year before they go belly up for forcing their own avid users to lose their money to systems that will last at most, 4-5 years before the hardware fails.

While the average user doesn't mod their tivo, the only moving parts in side is the hard drive(s). I imagine if you haven't opened up your box (resulting in you not having a backup of your drive) then you can send it back to be fixed. They would then almost certainly note that the unique id has changed and update your profile. That's if it really is stored on your hard drive. Someone smarter than me please fill me in on that one.

And if you have mod'd your tivo, then you have a backup (you DO have a backup, don't you?) and a simple new hd/restore will work just fine.

In any case, who knows where TiVo will be in 3-5 years. That's what you should be concerned about... not your hardware failing.

Re:Lifetime Subscriptions limiting people ...

[SealBeater]

however, these are locked to the UNIT itself.


There is a website that will transfer the service from a pre-existing TiVo to a new one. Here is the direct link, they have other services as well, such as removing the nag screens (for people who don't want the service, such as myself), memory upgrades, harddrive upgrades, etc. Well worth bookmarking.

SealBeater

Re:Lifetime Subscriptions limiting people ...

[SealBeater]

Hmmm...that link doesn't really convey what the main page said. Try just going here and scroll down.

SealBeater

Re:Lifetime Subscriptions limiting people ...

[amuro98]

The unique ID of the Tivo is not stored on the hard drives.

You can quite safely take a Tivo ISO image from the net, put it onto a fresh, store bought HD, plug it into your Tivo, and not affect your subscription status in the bit.

Also, if your Tivo does break down while under warranty, you can get your subscription transfered to your new unit. (not sure what happens if you were to buy one of those replacement policies from Best Buy or Circuit City... They claim they'll replace the box...but that won't inlcude your subscription...hmm...)

When I bought my Tivo, the lifetime subscription covered ~24 months of usage. I think my HDs will survive that. I also figure in ~24 months, Tivo will have a suitably advanced model that I might buy a whole new unit as an upgrade. The old Tivo will still be useful, and will probably make its way into a family member's house - just like any other old PC.

Service?

[Bartab]

Of course, TiVo service is what makes a TiVo more attractive than a plain recorder anyhow.

What service is that exactly? TV Guide? The one I get free off the satellite dish? Even on the standalone boxes (of which I still own one) you can get TV guide date for $20-30 a year. The only "service" received from TiVo is based in their blocking my choice of where to get TV guide data from. In other words: In support of a poor business plan. I only paid for one year of service with my nearly new DirecTiVo, on the assumption that the company will go out of business and I will lose my already limited reluctance to use the existing hacks to avoid paying for the DTiVo.

Here we go again...

[caferace]

a) Go ahead and homebrew your own PVR. Whe the quality of features matches TiVo for the price, size, and esthetics of the unit, give me a call. I'll buy one.

b) You simply cannot match the features (and AI) currently offered by the TiVo service by attempting to hack into various online listing databases..

c) Once your piehole is shut, remember to breathe through your nose.

Re:Here we go again...

[Bartab]

b) You simply cannot match the features (and AI) currently offered by the TiVo service by attempting to hack into various online listing databases..


These features of the "service" are in fact features of the software already on the box at time of purchase. All the TiVo "service" does is download the tv listing for your area and television service.

This is obvious with a DirecTiVo. An unhacked, never opened box fully subscribed can be unplugged from the phone line. After 30 days, it will complain that it hasn't verified your continued service and will shut off, but until that time you will have full guide data, which it gets off the dish, and the full scheduling service.

Furthermore, no hacking of "various online listing databases" is needed, you can purchase the data for between $20-30 a year. The only difficulty is getting the data into the TiVo itself. Of course that's only necessary with the standalone units.

Re:Here we go again...

[caferace]

All the TiVo "service" does is download the tv listing for your area and television service.

In deference to your reasonable comment... My comment was made in response to the likely never-ending flood of comments that follow any TiVo article with the "Why can't I just put this together myself?" comments, some of which preceded mine.

So I repeat. If you can put the equivalent unit, in an equivalently nice looking box that mirrors the functionality or does it one or more better I'm sold. Make it GPL and hackable and I might even throw some extra money your way. Until then? STFU.

Re:Here we go again...

[amuro98]

A number of Tivo's features rely on the schedule data it downloads. Without that internal data base, many of Tivo's features - the stuff that makes it a "Tivo" - won't work.

Sure, you can get a PVR card for your PC, and using TV Guide's website, or some packaged data, schedule your PC to record your programs.

However, that requires you to know both the time and channel of when something is on.

If you REALLY want a "PC-Tivo", you're going to have to recreate the ability for Tivo to simply record a show based on its title. Essentially, grepping through the schedule looking for all occurrences of that show, and scheduling.

So far, none of the PC solutions have this feature. They all essentially provide you with the familiar VCR paradigm in that you tell it to "record NBC, Tuesday, 8:00pm - 8:30pm". Tivo, on the other hand, allows you to say "Record Friends, new episodes only."

Slashdot Service Cost Rising

[Joe Rumsey]

It just might make the hassle of a homebrewed weblog a little more attractive. Of course, Slashdot service is what makes Slashdot more attractive than a plain weblog anyhow.

TiVo **Monthly** Service Cost Rising

[wdr1]

Note that costs are NOT riasing across the board. In particular they are NOT increasing the lifetime fee (it remains at $249) nor the annual fee.

Very few people I know are actually on the monthly plan (if anything, they get the monthly 'just to try to tivo out' first, and then quickly switch to a more cost-effective if they decide to keep Tivo). Not a huge deal, IMHO.

-Bill

Re:TiVo **Monthly** Service Cost Rising

[Cramer]

They stopped offering "annual" a long time ago. I still have one SA on annual. I'm likely to leave it that way forever -- even tho' it spends most of it's time unplugged (it's full)

Let's charge for linux!

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah! linux Osers love to pay for things.

Re:Dammit

[SonofRage]

hella offtopic but you can use Conectiva Linux which has an RPM port of apt. I just used it today to upgrade KDE.

What am I gonna do about it? I 'm gonna pay...

[po8]

For my household, I see no sensible alternative here. We had a bargain, but... they are altering the bargain. I will pray that they do not alter it any further.

Other price changes

[uberstool]

And obviously the price of news worth reading must have gone up as well. Spend a little money would ya!

They have to pay for the new bugs^H^H^H^Hfeatures

[micsaund]

"It's a reflection of the cost to deliver the service on an ongoing basis," a TiVo spokeswoman told Reuters. "We have delivered multiple upgrades and new features, and haven't raised prices."

Recently, I've had my trusty TiVo reboot twice while recording shows, give me VERY noticable compression glitches, and a slew of other lesser bugs. All of these problems seem to have happened after the 2.5.x upgrade.

Hell, yeah, TiVo needs 30% more of my money -- they've given me at least 30% more bugs!!!

Anyway, I've been an avid TiVo fan and I evangelize the service to all of my friends and family, but now, it's getting too expensive for most people to "risk" trying it. That was always the biggest obstacle to getting anyone to try a TiVo: "Well, you mean I have to drop $300 on the machine AND pay $10/month to use it??? No way... the free TV guide in the newspaper and my old VCR work just fine!"

As for myself, I think I'll just look into the RePlay boxes (or whatever they're called) since at least I'll get some updated hardware for the monthly cost...

30% so what.

[CMiYC]

I think it would have been better to say TiVo's service cost is rising from $9.95/mo to $12.95/mo. It sounds far better than "increase by 30%." Its only another $3/mo, and that's only another $36/yr. I'm pretty sure most subscribers, myself included, can handle another $36.

I won't homebrew my own because I am not just paying $12.95/mo for TV Guide data. TiVo has a lot of power in its software to handle that data. It seems to me that if you want a peice of software to record TV shows automatically (based on what you like), track when shows move, allow you to watch a show while its still recording, continually record liveTV, and update itself (to fix bugs and add new features) without any intervention on your part what-so-ever, then have fun writing it. If you want to do that, fine. Stop wasting time by posting and go do it. I, on the other hand, bought TiVo and pay for its service because its extremely convenient. It only took me about 15 minutes to set it up. How long is your homebrew going to take? I get free software upgrades to an already excellent UI/system while I'm sleeping. Can you code in your sleep?

I don't personally don't watch TV on my computer, nor will I put a computer in my living room so that I can. You get a lot for $12.95/mo. Not just guide data. You get a system supported by a company well deserving of another $3/mo. (BTW, a company I now understand why sent out TiVo Window clings last month...)

Re:30% so what.

[Mike McCune]

Also, if you think the service is too expensive, don't use it. The manual recording option works just like a regular VCR and no service is required. I found this out last month when my credit card expired and someone in the billing department screwed up. I had to manually enter the date, time and channel for a few weeks. It is not as convient as the "season pass manager" but if you are too cheap to pay for the service at least you have the option to do it yourself.

Re:Dammit

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're on RedHat, try up2date (or up2date-nox ).

As root type: up2date-nox -u

enjoy.

TiVo Redux

[maggard]

Oh great, here we go again.

Before posting "What does TiVo service offer?" just howzabout going to their website and looking it up for yourself? They do a lot better job then having a bunch of /.'ers put it in their own words. www.tivo.com

Next before saying "I can do that!" no, you really can't. Not in a nice box with a good remote and trick-play and quality recording with some exemplarily expert system software all hassle-free. Yes you can cobble together some Frankenstein of a solution that will get you 70%, mebbe 80% of the way there but it's those final few steps that make the whole thing a pleasure to use and not some annoyingly geeky custom half-solution.

Will we see these stand-alone devices superceded by PC-based ones? Mebbe, mebbe not. First off folks like to watch TV on their TVs, not on their computers (yes some of you don't, I'm talking the majority.) They want to sit on their couch with a remote in hand without cables strung across the house from the PC and be able to click the shows they want with minimum hassle. That doesn't describe most of the PC-based systems that we're hearing about.

Next there's the question is it preferable to make your great-as-a-PC PC do double-duty as a PVR? Sure the network connection is already there but in most cases the rest of the wiring (TV-in, TV-out, Audio out, IR-in, etc.) is a major PITA. Then there's just the hassle of having a heavy-load application running on your un-optimized hardware. Do-able? Mostly. Worth it? Likely not IMHO.

Lastly comes the question of the listings. This is where TiVo and the like really differ from a VCR - they're SMART. That smartness is based on having those current detailed listings customized to your local system & tier and no, that information isn't easy to come by. Yes it might be possible to try and snarf the listings out of TV Guide or someone but that's brittle and if enough folks did it they'd soon find ways to break it. Given that along with these listings come software updates and tech support and such it's likely that they're not all that bad a deal.

So - is TiVo gonna make it? Probably. They just got another round of financing, have lots of investment from the right folks, seem to be doing well in spite of the uphill battle of teaching folks just what their product is. The price hike isn't a great thing but with the lifetime-offer price still being offered for a short time that takes the sting out and once folks go TiVo they really don't want to go back, will pony up. Next fall we'll likely see more companies coming out with more licensed models and possibly another design but for now its TiVo & Replay.

Re:TiVo Redux

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yes you can cobble together some Frankenstein of a solution that will get you 70%, mebbe 80% of the way there but it's those final few steps that make the whole thing a pleasure to use and not some annoyingly geeky custom half-solution. "

But cobbled together Frankenstein solutions are what Linux is all about!

lifetime service

[PhuCknuT]

Am I the only one here who bought lifetime service? When I got it, people thought i was crazy for paying for it when tivo could go out of businiess any day now. That was 2 years ago, and the lifetime has already paid for itself (in terms of monthly fees), and I've still got the same tivo (although now with 200 hours, a network card, and a memory upgrade). The service is absolutely worth it.

Re:lifetime service

[NumberSyx]

Am I the only one here who bought lifetime service?

Nope, I have two TiVo's and two lifetime subscriptions. I figure even if TiVo starts to go under, someone will buy them out. I am suprised someone hasn't already, TiVo is an idea whose time has come. Like it or not, this is the future and the content providers need to embrace this, not try to litigate it out of existance. If the cable comapnies want more control, all they have to do is license the technology (or buy out the company) from TiVo or Replay and integrate the function into thier cable boxes, minus the fast fowrward and add $4.95 to the customers bill.

Re:lifetime service

[/dev/trash]

Nope, I have two TiVo's and two lifetime subscriptions. I figure even if TiVo starts to go under, someone will buy them out.

And the odds that the buyer of Tivo will honor those lifetime subscriptions? If they are losing as much money as everyone says, I'd bet that lifetime subscriptions go away real fast.

Re:lifetime service

[NumberSyx]

And the odds that the buyer of Tivo will honor those lifetime subscriptions? If they are losing as much money as everyone says, I'd bet that lifetime subscriptions go away real fast.

Have some faith, they are a good Company, with a good business model. Besides, I would still have two perfectly good PVR's, only difference is I'd have record manually and I'd be out $450 ($200 for one, $250 for the other), I lost a lot more than that when the Stock Market crashed and everyone lost money.

Re:lifetime service

[/dev/trash]

Have some faith, they are a good Company, with a good business model. Besides, I would still have two perfectly good PVR's, only difference is I'd have record manually and I'd be out $450 ($200 for one, $250 for the other), I lost a lot more than that when the Stock Market crashed and everyone lost money.

Call me cynical but what if they diabeled the boxes right before they went belly up?
Not all of us were 'smart' enuff to get into teh stock market. Sure I may have not have gotten rich but I'm not poor now either.

Re:lifetime service

[NumberSyx]

Call me cynical but what if they diabeled the boxes right before they went belly up?

What possible reason would they have for doing that ? To screw the people who supported them ? Why would they open themselves up to criminal prosecution (destroying the private property of 250,000 +people) ? You make no sense.

Re:lifetime service

[/dev/trash]

Well I was talking more along the lines of right before or right after someone else bought them. Disable the features you paid for as a lifetime subscriber. Sure it'd be screwing their customers but they don't have customers anymore at this point.

And to get the Tivo to work again all you'd need to do is subscribe again.

Would there be lawsuits? Probably. But my old employer was bought out by a bigger company. It changed some of the licesing etc for some of our products. Did some customers leave? yeah but the majority stayed and paid.

Like everyone has said those lifetime subscriptions are only as good as a the company that issued them is around.

Re:lifetime service

[NumberSyx]

Disable the features you paid for as a lifetime subscriber.

Then I am back having a perfectly good PVR, minus the service, but one I can manually program. I wouldn't like it, but I could live with it. As far as I am concerned, the lifetime subscriptions have already paid for themselves.

Re:lifetime service

[Sloppy]

In September 2000 [Plug: right after reading about the rebates in a Slashdot(TM) comment!] I bought a Tivo for $300, lifetime for (I think) $200, and then got a $100 rebate from Tivo and a $100 rebate from Philips. Net expenses: $300, and so far the box has been trouble-free. Pretty good deal!

That said, in spite of how much I've enjoyed it, I would love to replace it with a $2000 machine that is "Free" and does the same thing. ;-)

Re:lifetime service

[pauldy]

I gota say I would love a free $2000 machine even if it doesn't have all the features of my tivo.

Original (informal) Announcement

[John_McKee]

Here is the orignal (informal) announcement with some Q and A:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread. ph p?s=&threadid=47571

Re:Dammit

[October_30th]

And register with RedHat in order to use the "service"?

No thanks.

Only effects Standalone boxes

[John_McKee]

The price increase does not effect the DirecTV Receivers with TiVo service, and they are offering a discount of $50 on lifetime service off the regular price of $250 for current stand alone boxes.

Why "lifetime?"

[Arker]

I'm curious as to why anyone would buy the "lifetime" plan. It's not going to last your lifetime, you know, only the lifetime of your box, or of the company, whichever comes first - and from what I've heard it seems a decent bet that will make the monthly fee cost you less in the long run.

Re:Why "lifetime?"

[pHDNgell]

I'll send in my $200. I've already given them a lot of money in monthly fees, and I don't see myself discarding this box (which is the main reason I didn't do the lifetime subscription in the first place.

Besides, this is a company I'd really like to stay around, so I'm not going to bet against them.

Re:Why "lifetime?"

[pangur]

I've had my TiVo for two years, and I have already made up the diference in cash (24 x $10 month vs. $199 life).

I have a friend that bought his a year before mine, and he originally went month to month. After a year and a half, he went to lifetime too. Soon, he will make up the difference.

Incidently, this same friend has spent over $1000 on his TiVo between the memory upgrades, the dual hard drive upgrades, the ethernet card, and the additional TiVo (DirecTiVo) he just got for free from DirectTV. He still loves his unit and would spend that money again.

No, "lifetime" is relative to the product, but if you want to subscribe for more than a year and a half, lifetime service is a no-brainer.

Re:Why "lifetime?"

[wdr1]

Do the math. :-)

-Bill

Want homebrew PVR, like DirecTiVo's lossless rec.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I have four TiVos of various styles and subscription plans, but as it would happen, none of the standalones are on monthly. So it doesn't affect me at this point.

However, I would really like an open-source homebrew PVR. For many reasons.

But I'm also in love with the DirecTiVo's ability to record the DirecTV bitstream directly. Because DirecTV will never allow homebrew PVRs to do this, I'm a little sad.

And that's that. :)

Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[Jethro]

Hey,

First off, I don't think that $12.95 a month is a lot worse than $9.95 a month. When I get a TiVo I will happily pay that much.

The OT part: I want to get a DirectTV thing with a DirectTiVo thing. The local stores either have NO iea what I'm talking about (Best Buy) or think I should spend $750 on special dishes and receivers (Audio King). Not to mention I need to add a few HDDs (;

You can get DirectTV for practically free after rebates if you get just the standard receiver and a standard dish - the receiver+dish cost $50 anyway and there's free installation. I understand that a DirectTiVo setup would cost more - but $700 more?

The only DirectTiVo receivers I saw anywhere are the pretty expensive Sony ones at Audio King, who are known for price-inflation. Best Buy had 'Ultimate TV' which they claim is the same thing as TiVo, but (A) Says 'Microsoft' on it, and (B) lacks features I want and contains features I don't need.

I see a lot of comments from people mentioning DirectTiVo - what's the deal with the thing? Any decent online resources (TiVo.com didn't help much)? Is it REALLY that expensive?

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to the TiVo Web site. You can order a hughes 30 hour unit with DirecTV receiver built in for $49. Why are you wasting time at Best Buy?

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

The price increase does not effect the DirecTiVo subscibers, who remain at $9.95 a month (or lifetime of course).

Right now 1st generation TiVos, whether standalone or DirecTiVo, are hard to come by in the stores. You will have to do a little searching (try online) but it is worth it.

If you have the patience, Direct TV has said they will be coming out with a Series 2 DirecTiVo, but it will probably not be out for a while.

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[kindbud]

My Phillips DSR6000 cost me $499.00 new almost two years ago. I bought it from Good Guys the first day it was available. I see it priced at $319.00 for first time subscribers from Satellites Unlimited. $700 is way beyond the pale. The Sony unit ought to be able to actually read your mind for that price (since the DSR6000 can seem to do so for half that much! :)

Ultimate TV is not TiVo at all. It's not Linux, it's Windows for one thing. I do not know if it is hackable or upgradeable, but the TiVo units - including the DSR6000 - certainly are. I am enjoying 225 hours of recording time after I did the upgrade this past weekend. That's enough to hold the entire run of Babylon 5, plus Crusade, plus all the B5 movies, and still have more than 3 times the space left over as compared to the unit before the upgrade. But if I were to do it again, I would not use 7200rpm drives, they are too noisy (but they were on sale - $189 for 120Gb WD disks! Wow!).

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[Scryber]

DirecTivo is the way to go. This was my conclusion a year ago after deciding to get a Tivo, and at the same time, becoming increasingly frustrated with rising cable rates and poor service.

The benefits of an integrated Tivo receiver are terrific. You can look up the specifics, but the best one is that the quality of the recorded material is the same as what you watch live--no worrying about low/medium/high quality, it's always Best Quality. And 30+ hours of it.

This past Christmas I saw a number of promotions where they were selling the DirecTivo receivers, including installation, for $99. That was a terrific deal. Not sure what is available now, but there's probably some deals out there if you shop around.

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[zer0vector]

My roommate got two DirectTivo boxes and one dish for about 200 bucks, and now we have around 70 hours of recording time, and can record up to 4 shows at once (Dual LNB, two shows can be recorded at the same time on each box). Unfortunately our apartment complex won't let us permanently install anything, so we just "placed" the dish on our porch pointed in the right direction. Only problem is when the wind picks up and moves the dish.

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

DirectTiVo is the way to go. It can record a Dolby Digital audio stream (mostly on pay-per-view movies, etc), and has optical digital audio out. directv.tivo.com has a link to American Satellite who'll sell you the Hughes unit (i've got one, works great) for $50.

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[Jethro]

Thanks for your reply. One thing I'll mention though -

$700 is way beyond the pale. The Sony unit ought to be able to actually read your mind for that price

The Sony receiver isn't $700 on it's own - the eliptical dish with the dual thinggie makes up about $200 of that price. Although Audio Kind are price gougers.

Re:Slightly OT: DirectTiVo?

[larryj]

Try expertsatellite.com. I bought one of my two DirecTiVo boxes from them. No complaints at all.

DirecTiVo system (w/ dish) for $29.95: http://www.expertsatellite.com/dircomsyswit.html

When I bought mine, I got the Hughes receiver. This is the Philips receiver. Exact same thing, but the Philips is a black box and the Hughes is silver. I would have preferred black, but I LOVE being able to record 4 shows at once. Can't say I've ever had to (I think I've recorded 3 at once), but it's great to never have to worry about conflicts. Survivor, Friends and Family Guy all get recorded.

Watching sports is great too. Pause one game, hit one button and you're now watching another game. After a while, pause it and switch back to the first game. Watch it (fast-forwarding through commercials of course) and when you catch up to live TV, repeat.

Not to big of a deal IMO

[SquierStrat]

It's 3 dollars. Really folks, 3 Dollars. :-) That's one less bag of potatoe chips you can buy a month. Let's face it, there is such a thing as inflation, et cetera, eventually they had to increase the price. Three years without a price hike is pretty freaking good!

Re:Not to big of a deal IMO

[Anonymous Coward]

That's one less bag of potatoe chips you can buy a month.

So, Dan Quayle is a SlashDot reader. I'll bet that's the first time anything he's said has been labeled insightful.

Re:Not to big of a deal IMO

[Galvatron]

Let's face it, there is such a thing as inflation

According to the Bureau of Labor, inflation was 2.7% in 1999, 3.5% in 2000, and 3.7% in 2001. So, altogether, a $9.99 service should cost $11.01, a 10% price hike. If inflation is 4% from now on, then the price should hit $13 sometimes in 2006.

It's also worth noting that the CPI uses a fixed basket of goods, and therefore has a tendancy to overstate inflaion (if the price of beef goes through the roof, you'll probably eat more pork, but the CPI will still factor in the full impact of the spike in beef prices).

Re:Not to big of a deal IMO

[micsaund]

Yeah, only $3.

Added to the $5 (10%)increase in cable modem.
Added to the $20 (40%) increase in natural gas.
Added to the $5 (30%) increase in electricity.
Added to the $10 (30%) increase in gasoline.
Added to the $5 (6%) increase in water.
Added to the $6 (12%) increase in cable TV.
Added to the $5 (5%) increase in homeowner's dues.

Added to every other bill I get that's "only adding XX number of small dollars", all this really adds-up!!! (percentages added above to put the increase into perspective since I don't keep my heater turned-up high, etc.)

Now, throw this onto the fire -- I'm in the semiconductor industry that's been hit very hard by layoffs, raise/promotion freezes, etc. So, while I have not had a raise in 2+ years, ALL of my bills have increased significantly PERCENTAGE-wise.

It's not that TiVo wants "only $3" -- it's that everyone and their grandmother has their hand out for "only $3" more.

Re:Not to big of a deal IMO

[LiENUS]

if i was you micsaund
id dump the tivo and cable tv
stop drinking water
and ditch the stove so i could keep my cable modem/computer :D

Re:Not to big of a deal IMO

[SquierStrat]

dude...potatoe IS a correct spelling of the word.

Glad I got rid of my TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Now the rest of you get the privledge of paying even more money for TiVo to sell your personal data to advertisers. How do you think a company that loses money on hardware, and loses money on service actually makes money? This has been discussed in depth on lots of web sites, just not ones like this which have a financial stake in TiVo.

$50/mo. for over three-hundred channels

[Anonymous Coward]

But this is a pants argument.

Could they get 12 channels for $2?

How many channels can be watched?

Not disagreeing with your point of view, but the means of justification.

Homemade

[t_allardyce]

I'm surprised there arn't as many homemade projects around. I looked into it a few months back and the only solutions i could find where windows based (i don't know about you, but the thought of relying on windows to stay up more than half a day is not good). Also, true encoder cards (i.e that do all the encoding) are very very expensive, and i wanted to have dedicated hardware doing the work so i could put in an old cpu to handle the rest. There are lots of online tv guides you can leech from with a few scripts, you would be able to put in removable drives (cd-r etc.) for back-up, and you could log in to the machine while you were away to change the settings. Also, you could add a cd/mp3 player, email and net, and a dvd player (region free of course). And the best thing is, you wouldn't have to worry about subscription, EULAs, and stupid laws about what you can and can't do in your own home.

Re:Homemade

[gvonk]

i don't know about you, but the thought of relying on windows to stay up more than half a day is not good

That's stupid... I've had awesome months-long uptimes with XP. So have my friends who run it. Yeah, 98/me blew. XP is kickass. Get over your zealotry.

Re:Homemade

[Anonymous Coward]

The homebrew crowd are a bunch of blowhards. They've been saying for years that they could do what TiVo and Replay are doing, but so far we have seen nothing. It's just a geeky excuse for not paying money for a real DVR.

We'll see commercial software with DVR-like functions long before we see a real homebrew solution.

Re:Homemade

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the boy who cried wolf? It was for CEO's of software mega-corporations as much as for shepards. Microsoft has been making unstable software for decades and you want people like us who just gave up in 1998 to keep up to date. I still hear about the CLI OS Linux is and how my mother can't use even though she uses it so we're even. Its called protecting your reputation and MS did not do a good job of that.

Re:Homemade

[mgkimsal2]

(i don't know about you, but the thought of relying on windows to stay up more than half a day is not good)

Funny, my W2k box pretty much stays up non-stop. The uptime is pretty much identical to any Linux machines running in the office.

I'm surprised there arn't as many homemade projects around

I'm not surprised at all. Could be the reason there aren't that many home-brewed products is that one you get outside of 'software only' hacking most of the opensource crowd just can't get involved.

You want to put an 'old' CPU in there? To run video recording, email, net, dvd, cd, mp3 and other stuff? How 'old' a machine would actually run all that at a usable performance? If you're one of those "I run everything in the world on my P90 and Lunix 1.1 kernel and 8 meg of RAM on a 400 meg drive and it FLIES compared to Windows" peopel good luck to you. Those of us in the real world will simply pay $100 for a DirecTivo machine :) and get a dedicated device which is well-engineered, simple, intuitive, easy to use and solid and stable.

Re:Homemade

[t_allardyce]

Thats nice.. no no its fine that you run XP. I know some people talk about XP being spy-ware, MSN propoganda, or some evil DRM OS, but i'm sure its fine...

Re:Homemade

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm personaly confused as to how his lackluster view of XP makes him a zealot. I've seen XP played with it a few times and decided I wouldn't run it if someone was threatening to shoot me in the foot. I might consider it for other body parts but I'd let a toe go not to have to run it.

Wasn't it called CATV

[worldthinker]

Which stands for "Community Antenna" TV which in its very beginnings were "cooperative" ventures to provide tv signal to fringe areas. Broadcasters only benefited by having its audience enlarged without added expense to itself.

Its only greed and opportunity that turned what was a free or modestly priced service into the basis for a multi-billion dollar industry that is vertically aligned with broadcasting and content development.

I think its interesting that its gone from this being a service to us to we, the tv viewer/cable consumer are now a product that is sold to the content developers.

RePlay == No Cost

[tilleyrw]

NaNaNaNaNa -- ReplayTV owners pay NO service cost -- EVER!

Tivo Sucks!

Re:RePlay == No Cost

[shadowd]

Yes, but my DirecTivo unit plus lifetime subscription was still cheaper than RePlay - and they maintain the unit upgrades... No fuss, no muss.

You must learn to look at both sides of the situation Grasshopper.

Re:RePlay == No Cost

[spike666]

what does maintain the unit upgrades mean? software? replay updates software all the time on the replay tv units. it just gets pooped into the machine whenever the box phones home. theres no subscription, no tracking to a name (they are starting to gather info, but theres never any tie back to a particular user - other than perhaps caller id, but somehow since its dialing in thru uunet, i doubt they can easily get that)

Re:RePlay == No Cost

[Sc00ter]

The cost of the "service" is included in the cost of the ReplayTV unit. That's why ReplayTV machines are usually $200-$300 more then a TiVo with the same recording time. Hmm.. that's about the cost of a lifetime sub for TiVo..

Re:RePlay == No Cost

[Sc00ter]

TiVo doesn't track viewing habits to a name either. And you can call up TiVo and opt-out of that if you really wanted to.

Re:RePlay == No Cost

[shadowd]

Still, the fact of the matter is that even with the $250 lifetime subscription - my Tivo was still cheaper than the low end Replay unit.

Re:RePlay == No Cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, if you have one of the Showstoppers or the pre-Sonic Blue Replays, you do not get software upgrades anymore. If you have one of the new broadband-only Replays from Sonic Blue, then, yes, you get software upgrades. Considering how much they cost, that's the least you could expect. But the older Replay units are not really supported anymore; they are a dead end.

Cost, or Price

[Anonymous Coward]

They need to make more profit... thus, the price is going up, while the cost is most likely the same or less.

Just being a dork.

Software TiVo replacement

[lga]

I can't afford a TiVo myself, although I would love one. I do have a software solution on a PC however.

I use Showshifter from http://www.showshifter.com to watch, record and pause tv. Add Digiguide from http://www.digiguide.co.uk to this, and you now have the option to click on a program and choose "record in showshifter". Using an ATI all-in-wonder 128 card I can output the whole lot to my TV, and showshifter can use my remote control. Showshifter can also play back DVD's, CD's and MP3's, although it does need some improvement.

The cost of this? Five pounds per year for digiguide. The main drawback is that this software is only available under windows, but I do most of my work on other computers running linux and irix, so it's not too big a problem.

All in all I get slightly more functionality than a TiVo, but at a cost of being more complicated and having far more wires. I also hate to think of the total cost including the PC, but I already had that. I think what I really want is not a TiVo, but a PC in a low profile black case that can sit on top of my video. Armed with showshifter and digiguide ported to linux, I would end up with a far more functional box. I think I have just given myself a project to work on, haven't I.....

Steve.

Re:Software TiVo replacement

[Anonymous Coward]

no, it sounds like you get slightly less functionality than tivo, not more. does your software have settings to record an entire season of a show in one click? does it let you rate shows, and then offer viewing suggestions (good suggestions) based on your thumbs up/thumbs down ratings?

Re:Software TiVo replacement

[Anonymous Coward]

"does your software have settings to record an entire season of a show in one click?"

DigiGuide's "Add Favourite" does this, it also rates films/shows etc.

Re:Software TiVo replacement

[lga]

no, it sounds like you get slightly less functionality than tivo, not more. does your software have settings to record an entire season of a show in one click? does it let you rate shows, and then offer viewing suggestions (good suggestions) based on your thumbs up/thumbs down ratings?

No, it doesn't offer those functions, and I would be the first to admit that. I would like the ability to set recording of a whole series and to get sugestions of shows to watch, and I expect these features to appear in future software versions. The extra functionality that I was refering too was the ability to play DVD's, CD's and MP3's on the same box that lets me record and pause live TV.

Steve.

ReplyTV has Digital Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see why everyone has a TiVo and not a ReplayTV. OK, granted the TiVo is much cheaper, but how can you guys set up your TiVo KNOWING that you are not going to get your 5.1 digital audio? ReplayTV has an optical audio out and to S-Video outs. That is reason enough to ditch the TiVo in my mind. I'm not letting my $1000s of dollars worth of speakers and components go to waste just for a TiVo. That's why I have yet to buy one. I'm just waiting for ReplayTV to come down a little in price and I will definately scoop one up.

Re:ReplyTV has Digital Audio

[SmackyTheFrog]

Hey buddy, Tivo does have one s-video out, at least mine does. Though lack of digital audio out does suck, I'm not exactly watching dvds through my tivo. But then again movies on HBO would be nicer. eh

Re:ReplyTV has Digital Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares about 5.1? 99.997% of what you record isn't in 5.1 digital and only a moron would want that to begin with.

digital out of my dvd? ok. the Tivo? what loser wants that?

Re:ReplyTV has Digital Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

That seems like a dumbassed excuse. Got to have my digital 5.1 cause I'm such the audio phile when a 22.8 kH tone from right center comes out sounding like a 22.789 kH tone from center my panties knot up in a ball like someone put a thimble full of sand in my vagina. I can't imagine what you did before they had 5.1 digital audio. Everything must have sounded like hissing and scratching to you. What an unpleasant experience I'm sure that the rest of the world has to think the tivo just sucks without the optical output. Words are unintelligable and everything is just blagh.

Re:ReplyTV has Digital Audio

[larryj]

My DirecTiVo boxes have s-video and optical digital audio out.

Just get the lifetime subscription..

[phillymjs]

It's staying at $249. So now, the lifetime pays for itself in about 19 months as opposed to 25. :-)

TiVo will certainly still be around in 2 years. I've done everything but print up my own brochures to explain just how wonderful it is to all of my friends, and most people who've taken the plunge are the same way.

~Philly

Old proprietary data and new management

[A nonymous Coward]

The only problem with relying on TiVo and their automatic software updates is the same problem with any proprietary format. Everyone knows about the problem with Web services and keeping your vital company data on somebody else's platform. What happens if they go out of business? What happens is they decide you shouldn't have access any more because of a bill dispute?

Same with TiVo. While they may be more benign now, what happens if they go under, or get bought up? An automatic update overnight and boom -- no more access to those shows you had saved from 2 years ago.

Most TV isn't worth seeing in the first place, let alone saving, but if I were to roll my own, it would be for that reason.

Re:Old proprietary data and new management

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were able to use TiVo for a few weeks you would not assert that "most TV isn't worth seeing" - although it is true that "most" TV is not worth seeing, that misses the point that you are still missing the good stuff - the small minority of TV that is worth seeing.

The point is that TiVo allows you to see the really good TV shows that you never get a chance to watch because it is never on when you are around, or because its time keeps changing, or because you were never aware it even existed.

If you had a TiVo you would be able to justify TV watching, because you would actually be watching the good stuff - only the things you really like (of which there is a lot more on TV than you realize).

Instead, your kind prefers to sneer and make elitist comments about how there is nothing good on TV anyway, and how you could really homebrew your own DVR "if you really wanted to". Yeah, right. This is just a combination of bullshit and sour grapes.

The service is also the updates.

[StormCrow]

Remember, you aren't getting a dumb box that works the same way forever. You get the benifits of the software improvements Tivo develops. A priority queue for season passes, keyword wishlists that can auto-record, and VBR encoding have all been added since I bought my Tivo.

Showstopper

[tiedyejeremy]

They say TiVo is cheaper. hmmmm $249 for box, $200 for lifetime service = $450. Showstopper is $499 for the box, -100 rebate + free lifetime service = $399. TiVo is not cheaper - and they will continue to raise rates.

Re:Showstopper

[Anonymous Coward]

This might be important if the showstopper actually worked.

Re:Showstopper

[Anonymous Coward]

Showstopper is dead. It is a discontinued item. It is being sold at clearing house prices. ReplayTV is no longer writing software upgrades for it or the other pre-broadband Replays. It's a dead parrot, Jim!

Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, you braindead, resentful, envious ReplayTV troll.

Re:Showstopper

[Anonynnous Coward]

Which also means they're no longer writing downgrades, which, given what TiVo's been doing, is probably a good thing.

Re:Showstopper

[pauldy]

Tivo has been offering rebates like this as well tardo. So even if you look at your scenario your looking at 50 bucks more for the tivo and you have free lifetime service as well. Plus season passes/VBR/Software Updates/Wish Lists/Tivo Picks and a few other negligable things over the showstopper. Plus that doens't even include the possibility of a rebate on the Tivo which I'm sure you will see come the holidays. Also you might be better off looking at a newer ReplayTV vs the showstoper as the showstopper has been discontinued and about the only thing you get with it is the guide data. Bottom line baring the specials that both companies offer from tim to time the Tivo is cheaper for units that have the same recording space.

Re:What am I gonna do about it? I 'm gonna pay...

[NumberSyx]

For my household, I see no sensible alternative here. We had a bargain, but... they are altering the bargain. I will pray that they do not alter it any further.

I don't know why the parent was moderated as funny, it is a fair statment. However, TiVo is a company that is in business to make money, in order to do this they provide a service. Like most business, they must occasionally raise prices to keep up with the raising costs of doing business. This is especially important to a company like TiVo, which has yet to turn a profit. I personally feel $12.95 a month is perfectly reasonable for easy TV recording, but to be honest, I own two TiVo's and paid for the lifetime subscription on both, and this is what I recommend.

yes, just guide data

[avdp]

Sorry to tell you, but yes, you're paying $13 just for guide data. Everything is else is just software that already exists on your Tivo that gets magically enabled because you're paying. It's like having the "Search" feature built in MS Windows disabled (greyed out) because I am not paying $xx/month for it.

as far as the software downloads, they fit in two categories in my book:
1. bug fixes, which should be free
2. new features, which if you really really want, you should just pay a one time upgrade fee (think of it as buying a windows upgrade) and not having to pay a flat (but sometimes encreasing, apparently) fee to get them.

Just my $0.02 - if paying $13/month for guide data is acceptable to you, great for you and great for TiVo! It's certainly their right to do this, but I will not take any part of it...

Re:yes, just guide data

[Anonymous Coward]

Another clueless fuck.

Re:yes, just guide data

[Cramer]

Tivo has to pay for the guide data, so they pass that cost on to the subscribers. Just because you (or any individual average Joe) can go collect TV guide information from any number of on-line sites to be feed into your tivo doesn't mean you can offer that data ("service") to everyone for free. Tivo certainly cannot do that. (The contents of those web sites are protected by copyright for which you have no right to redistribute.)

Basically, what you do with their data in the privacy of your own home for your personal amuzement is totally your business. However, what you do with their data in the privacy of someone else's home, is very much their business.

Re:yes, just guide data

[avdp]

I am not claiming that the guide info should be free, merely that unlike what the previous poster claims, Tivo users are paying $13/month for the guide info.

Now, since you brought it up, let's discuss what guide information should cost. Or rather, what I would be willing to pay for it: maybe a buck per week. If Tivo can't provide that for that price, they should make their software in such a way that I could retreive from other willing services for less or free (i.e. the cable companies already broadcast guide info where I live - I have digital cable). But of course, they're never gonna do that because that would be killing their (potential) cash cow.

Re:yes, just guide data

[Anonymous Coward]

And what the other anonymous poster is posting is that the guide data isn't all your paying for. Your paying for the monies that Tivo pays to Sony/Phillips to lower the costs of the untis as well. you didn't think they could really build a machine with the customized hardware required to do full on video editing in real time for 99 bucks did you. This was the price of the 14 hour unit at one point. Your also paying for the software updates etc. I can't believe how many people who read slashdot don't ge tthis concept. When I started reading this site it was full of people who could put two and two together. Now its full of morons who want the world and think everyone should just give it to them.

Re:yes, just guide data

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, they have a faulty business plan, but that's their problem, isn't it? I've always thought that companies that sell their hardware at all loss are idiot. If the price is so expensive that the customer can't afford to pay it all at once, they can either wait for the price to go down, or buy at layaway.

Re:yes, just guide data

[Blue23]

Now, since you brought it up, let's discuss what guide information should cost. Or rather, what I would be willing to pay for it: maybe a buck per week. If Tivo can't provide that for that price, they should make their software in such a way that I could retreive from other willing services for less or free

Why?

Why should they make their software to allow other sources. Sure, it would be nice for us. But it's extra costs for them to make for less revenue, which doesn't seem like a reasonable business plan. Companies don't have a right to make money, but they don't have to intentionally loose money to the consumer. It's supply and demand - if enough people want the product and the service at their prices, it'll sell. If people don't, it won't.

But that's like saying the satellite TV companies should give you their dish at a discount (which many do), and also have spent the additional development time/money that it can hook up to any source. Doesn't pay for them to make it.

Corporation have no right to make money, but they are definitely allowed to try without stabbing themselves in the back.

=Blue(23)

Re:yes, just guide data

[avdp]

Of course they won't. I said that much in my post. And they don't have to do anything, I am merely stating what I would need them to do if I were to buy a Tivo: either provide the data at a reasonable rate ($1/week) or let the machine get its data from some source of my choice and find a better business model.

It's all about what people are willing to pay for this "service". A few millions subscribers obviously are willing to pay $13/month for guide data, but me and millions of other people apparently are not. I think stuff like that should be provided by the cable (or satellite) providers - and I think most would if they could.

Re:yes, just guide data

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing the whole concept of offsetting costs is lost on you.

Consumers generally won't accept pricey devices into their homes unless they can justify a need for it. So what Tivo has done to get their prices down is subsidize the costs of manufacturing of the devices and constructed a pay for guide updates model that is used to offset the costs offset in manufacturing. This enables the units to break the 500 dollar price point while still being profitable in the area of the guide data.

Now dense as you seem to be I'm sure you can understand that this is about more than what time does x come on channel y or the show descriptions. This data can be retrieved for a fairly low cost in compairison to the number of subscribers. However making up the manufacturing costs is the most imparitive part of the buisness model. You can of course just pay this upfront by buying the lifetime subscritpion and be done with it though this puts you in line with the cost of a replay unit.

Re:yes, just guide data

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW how did this get moded a 3 Informative. It is udder BS and shows a severe lack of understanding of the processes involved with Tivo and their service.

Re:TiVo Redux - USE GuidePlus!

[AmigaAvenger]

In regards to using TvGuide data, GuidePlus data flows across most cable and broadcast systems. It will give you a guide very similar to a DirectTV type system, and yes, you can pull it off with a computer, in fact Microsoft actually gives you software to do it! (Got a 3dfx Voodoo 3500 tv edition laying around that does this wonderfully)!

Problems with homebrew PVR

[lkaos]

For quite some time I've wanted to make a homebrew PVR. In fact, I shelled out quite a bit attempting to make one. Here are the basic problems:

1) TIVO and ReplayTV technologies all have built in MPEG encoder/decoder cards. In the US, such cards simply do not exist. There are MPEG decoder cards, but they are barely supported in Linux.

2) TV-OUT technology simply doesn't exist in the US for Linux. The most promising technology is with the ATI-AIW card. I have heard some folks have mixed success using a framebuffer but in framebuffer mode, all video acceleration is lost.

3) It takes an _aweful_ lot of processor power to perform real-time MPEG-encoding. Larger processors also bring high heat and require more cooling and bigger cases.

4) Cost is just enormous. An ATI AIW is around $250 and then throw in another $250 for a HD, then throw in the cost of the other pieces and you end up with a solution costing well over 1K. CD-R only inflates that number.

As long as all manufactors are keeping the specs to their hardware closed, homebrewed PVRs are just not possible. Hardware is desperately needed to complete the solution.

ATI was working on a set-top motherboard but I do not know if it was targetted at consumers or OEMs. Maybe some enterprising hardware geek out there will whip up a custom StrongARM-based single board with built in S-Video out and MPEG encoding/decoding...

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[Lumpy]

Well let's start from the beginning....


1) TIVO and ReplayTV technologies all have built in MPEG encoder/decoder cards. In the US, such cards simply do not exist. There are MPEG decoder cards, but they are barely supported in Linux.

2) TV-OUT technology simply doesn't exist in the US for Linux. The most promising technology is with the ATI-AIW card. I have heard some folks have mixed success using a framebuffer but in framebuffer mode, all video acceleration is lost.

WRONG.... Hollywood+ and Creative DXR3 both awesome Mpeg decoder cards that can play a broadcast quality Mpeg2 on a Pentium 133 without MMX. better video out than I've seen on ANY video card with tv out. The drivers are awesome and I use ut every day.

As for a Mpeg encoder card.... True for anyone who wont pay $2K but who cares? buy a BTTV compatable card use Nupple video and a Old junky P-II333 and record freely and well.

couple that hardware with a ACT-allwell box and you have a set-top box ready to be a TiVo killer with some creative programming in perl coupled with PicoGUI or pure SDL programming.

$250.00 for a HD? why?? I paid $89.00 for my 40 gig drive sitting on myu desk.. if 40hours is not enough to start with then please go away. Hardware wise I can do it WITH the Allwell box for less than $499.00 no you dont get 90 bajillion recording hours at greater than DVD quality... you get some pretty heavy compression but it ends up better than VHS. and that is the reason for it... not archive use but my entertainment to watch battlebots and Junkyard wars (and Invader ZIM!) I dont want to watch those shows in 1080i HDTGV quality with full digital 6.1 surround.. and anyone that would needs therapy.

so please, go out and build it... it's easy, fun, and you aren't crippled with the mother company schackles... but you probably will be a felon for owning a copywrite breaking device that will probably have the death penalty attached to it soon.

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[lkaos]

WRONG.... Hollywood+ and Creative DXR3 both awesome Mpeg decoder cards that can play a broadcast quality Mpeg2 on a Pentium 133 without MMX. better video out than I've seen on ANY video card with tv out. The drivers are awesome and I use ut every day.

Let me rephrase, there are MPEG decoder cards, but barely any of them are supported in Linux.

As for a Mpeg encoder card.... True for anyone who wont pay $2K but who cares? buy a BTTV compatable card use Nupple video and a Old junky P-II333 and record freely and well.

I know on an Athlon 650 I was only getting mid 20 frames per second when recording MPEG real-time. Even with hardware iDCT (the specs for which are not open by ATI), ATI still recommends a PIII 750 in order to obtain the highest quality recording.

You could probably get away with a PII-333 if you didn't care much about quality, but for software compression, you just need a faster processor than that.

BTW: Been a while since I went HD shopping... I would definitely want more than 40GB though.

I am amazed at this AllWell box. What kind of FPS are you getting with it?? What is the bitrate and is it all software encoding?

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[d2ksla]

There are MPEG decoder cards, but they are barely supported in Linux.

You don't have to use custom hardware. Use mplayer which can easily decode MPEG-[124] video/audio (MP3 is really MPEG-1 Layer III audio) in realtime on an normal machine (mine's a P-III 500 MHz), using no other hardware than the CPU (which of course has MMX etc).

2) TV-OUT technology simply doesn't exist in the US for Linux.

I'm using a Matrox G400 DH to display video-out from Linux on a regular NTSC TV. It works just fine. TV's here don't have SCART, but you can buy a cheap Radio-Shack RF modulator box for Video->RF.

The most promising technology is with the ATI-AIW card. I have heard some folks have mixed success using a framebuffer but in framebuffer mode, all video acceleration is lost.

Video acceleration? What do you need it for? The framebuffer works just fine for me to display DivX movies.

3) It takes an _aweful_ lot of processor power to perform real-time MPEG-encoding.

My P-III 500 MHz does realtime DivX (MPEG-4) and MP-3 encoding of 320x240 29.97 Hz (NTSC) video. Granted, it can't do 640x480, but it is good enough IMHO for casual viewing. I made a test clip to show what I mean (1.6 MB DivX4 AVI, 14 seconds).

4) Cost is just enormous.

I use one machine (P-III 500MHz) as a dedicated box next to the TV in the living-room. It has a $50 WinTV card for video capture and a ~$50 Matrox G400 Dualhead for TV-out. I have the large harddrives on my regular Linux box, using NFS for file sharing.

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[Lumpy]

go to

http://mars.tuwien.ac.at/~roman/nuppelvideo/

and you will find all you need to know.

the Allwell box is just a computer it has nothing special in it other than a chjeap BTTV card I put in it, and the Hollywood+ card I scabbed onto their video switcher. No OSD overlaid over the movie, but who cares.. I get the OSD when I pause or stop.
I am going to release the project when I get things stable and beat the snot out of one of the developers I am working with that thinks he's gonna make millions by forcing the project closed. (He'll sign the GPL or I reposess the computer,monitor, and car I loaned him.)

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[Lumpy]

forgot one thing..

Why do you have to encode Mpeg realtime? is there a huge need to do that?
I encode as raw and then after recording start the raw->mpeg2 conversion. This allows another show to be recorded.. and has only one drawback.. I have to wait 15 minutes after a show stops recording before I can watch it.

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[lkaos]

I'm using a Matrox G400 DH to display video-out from Linux on a regular NTSC TV. It works just fine.

It appears I spoke too soon. The gatos project has also begun initial support for TV-OUT with the AIW cards.

Video acceleration? What do you need it for?
Hardware YUV translation. The only thing that makes video playback bareable in Linux on my box.

My P-III 500 MHz does realtime DivX (MPEG-4)
I have not used the DivX codecs in my testing. I always wanted to maintain compatibility with VCDs in order to be able to burn CD-Rs. Granted, the DivX items could be converted to MPEG-1.

I use one machine (P-III 500MHz).
Can you also watch the item being recorded or does this box act as a standalone video server?

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[lkaos]

I'm gonna hit both posts at once :)

First, doesn't the raw recording take an enormous amount of disk space? Something like 7GB/hour? Doesn't that reduce the recording capacity of the drive and/or the amount of consecutive tv that can be recorded?

As far as the second post, I searched around for the Allwell boxes and they seem nice. Only problem is that they are not available anywhere. I do not know if your model has this, but they have models that have built in TV-OUT capability.

What I always intended on doing was to get a Mini-ATX case once I got everything working right. The problem is that I was never able to find a satisifactory configuration.

Looks like I may start again though. If I can get X to display on my TV with accelerated graphics, with a DivX codec, xine, and cdrecord, I might be able to throw something very nice together...

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[Lumpy]

you have to buy an allwell box from them (mail order)
Yes they have TV out, DO NOT get their mpeg decoder card, it sucks really really bad. and the linux drivers are horrible for it. Get a DXR3 or Hollywood+ as the drivers are near perfect. The silver box has a video switcher built in to switch from the TV out to the Mpeg playback card.

setting aside 7gig is fine. as I can only record one thing at a time with only 1 tuner card. I seem to get around only 3-4 gig per hour at 30fps 640x480 capture (16 bit only, it's a waste to capture at 32bit just to display it on a TV) and I use a bit of basic compression from the Nupplevideo program. yes I have some artifacts on some shows. nothing as bad as digital cable gives day-to-day though.

Basically, if you have cable TV, this setup will capture at a higher quality then you will ever get out of cable tv... no it's not a super-performance setup, buit I dont want that. I want something that worked and I could burn to CDR later.
(archiveing to SVideoCD isnt too bad for TV shows.)

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[d2ksla]

Hardware YUV translation. The only thing that makes video playback bareable in Linux on my box.

Yeah, that probably helps a lot, I use it on my G400. I thought you meant hardware mpeg encoding support.

Can you also watch the item being recorded or does this box act as a standalone video server?

Umm, not sure what you mean exactly. I've patched NVrec:DIVX4rec to use the Matrox G400 back-end scaler (=hardware YUV -> RGB) to display the frames being encoded to disk on the TV as well. If you just wanna watch stuff without recording there's fbtv (WinTV video-in -> Matrox G400 TV-out).

After a recording is finished, I can watch it on the TV using mplayer and the mga framebuffer driver for TV-out.

I have not used the DivX codecs in my testing.

Well, I can really recommend the Xvid MPEG-4 (=DIVX4) encoder. It is open-source, and plug-compatible with the older divx4linux encoder.

I put up some more info on the Freevo project website.

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but 320x240 is pretty well crap.

Re:Problems with homebrew PVR

[d2ksla]

Ok, so buy a faster computer or a Tivo.

In my opinion it is comparable to a VHS rental tape, at least when you watch it on a TV.

What about lifetime subscribers?

[spanky555]

I'm a lifetime subscriber...since I didn't get any such notice - I assume there is no price hike for the lifers?

your private information

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't tivo collect and store information about what you watch in order to target advertisements to you?

Do you think maybe that's a good reason for people to work on an open source alternative? Keep feeding them if you want.

Re:your private information

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you work for Sonic Blue or are you just a moron?

Fact TiVo collects data on your viewing habits.

Fact TiVo makes money from selling this data.

Fact TiVo removes any and all personal information from this.

When people buy data from TiVo they don't know that you like to sit up all night watching reruns of the Care Bears. They just know that somebody does.

Re:your private information

[Anonymous Coward]

You want to tell advertisers what you like? You want these people, who want nothing more than to influence you to know what you respond to? You want them to have a nice, well drawn map of what currently influences you and your family?

Or you'd rather PAY someone else tell them and make a few bucks off the deal.

My point is not that they have your address. My point is that you're giving information and power to people who solely want to exploit you.

Or maybe you think the fucking Care Bears are about love and hugs and not selling you a particular brand of fake fur and acrylic stuffing? Dream on.

Re:your private information

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not opposeed to advertisers knowing what I like and allowing them to press buttons because in the end I'm a descerning customer able to make my own decissions for better or worse. I don't allow people to tell me what or how I should think. They have the power to exploit my information currently. I as of yet have no proof that they have or ever will do this however. And as for the carebears obviously you know nothing about them either.

The Care Bears are about love and hugs and things that make people feel happy. Now American Greetings exploited this as a way to sell greeting cards accessories gifts pencils lunch boxes and other products that bastardized the whole care bears theme. So don't blame them for the actions taken by a different entity entirely. And I'm not picking on A.G. Halmark has prooven themselves to be quite the bastardizers and I'm sure we will see their september 11th commercials airing any day now once they feel they won't be persecuted for it.

for us poor students...

[supernova87a]

You know, no one is *forcing* you to get the service.

I bought a 20 hour Tivo in December, upgraded it to 80 hours on my own, and have been using it without service since then. I still think it's great!

Sure, service would be nice, I would get to see the program names and scroll through tv guides, but I'm still happy without it. TIvo records the same programs for me every day (I set it manually to repeat), and it does perfectly well for me.

Maybe when I start making some more money, I'll justify paying another monthy fee to some company, but not now. I'm already fed up with those cable, telephone, etc. companies.

ReplayTV

[gvonk]

ReplayTV doesn't have a subscription cost.

Not that I don't wonder about a company with no continuing revenue stream, but fwiw, there's no cost. (I have a Tivo.)

Re:ReplayTV

[hawk]

>Not that I don't wonder about a company with no continuing revenue stream,

new units, maybe?

hawk

Re:ReplayTV

[JLouder]

Not that I don't wonder about a company with no continuing revenue stream, but fwiw, there's no cost.

TV manufacturers don't make us pay each month for the privilege of watching the set we bought, and they seem to be doing just fine.

Re:ReplayTV

[gvonk]

Nor do TV manufacturers provide us with anything. That's the network, who DOES have a revenue stream. It doesn't cost Sony anything for me to still have my functioning TV. However, with ReplayTV, they have promised you a service for the lifetime of the machine with no way to pay for it besides your single initial outlay.

Re:ReplayTV

[pauldy]

I think the appropriate question here is : Who employs you?

Re:ReplayTV

[nvrrobx]

With TiVo you can pay the $250 lifetime subscription fee and never pay another monthly fee.

ReplayTV does not have a monthly fee because they build the cost of subscription into the MSRP of the unit.

Re:ReplayTV

[amuro98]

ReplayTV is also more expensive than Tivo (the hardware.) When you add in Tivo's service fee, their prices are sorta comparable...

So, no separate fee for ReplayTV - the service fee is built into the cost you pay in the store.

This is why I wish Tivo would just dump the fee altogether and roll it into the price you see in the store. Sure, it's going to be a bit scarier to see "Tivo - $550", but that's essentially what you're paying when you buy a standalone Tivo ($300) and then get the lifetime subscription ($250.)

With the monthly fee going to $13/mo for the Tivo, it makes even more sense to do the lifetime fee (which I suspect is part of the real reason they hiked the monthly fee - they WANT you to buy the lifetime - less hassle for them.)

Re:ReplayTV

[rtechie]

The big long-term problem ReplayTV has in providing the service is the cost of all the local phone numbers for providing dial-up access to the devices. The "tv guide" costs are next to nothing (except the fees they pay, which they would have to provide for all units anyway).

This is one of the reasons they're moving to "broadband" recorders. It's something the typical (high-end, likely to have Internet broadband) PVR customer has been asking for, and it's actually cheaper for them to provide long-term (is ethernet any more expensive than a modem?).

As an "older" ReplayTV owner, one of the things I'm worried about is them dropping the local phone numbers.

Re:ReplayTV

[hawk]

>Who employs you?

A private university that charges students tuition for a few years and stops, then looks for more students. The "continuing stream" is in the same sense as it is for Replay: must always find new "customers"

hawk

Re:ReplayTV

[pauldy]

Even though they sell their units at a loss to begin with? What the hell kinda buisness model is that.

Re:ReplayTV

[pauldy]

BTW the fact you are employed by someone else is the joke there.

I pay $45/mo for crap

[SpinyNorman]

BASIC cable costs me $45/mo from Comcast.

I'm seriously considering cancelling it. I don't watch enough TV to justify $500/yr.

Too bad there's no real "basic" option (other than broadcast) at a more reasonable price.

And as it started getting more popular...

[Anonymous Coward]

You would probably have to start licensing the data from TVGuide as the tool became more popular. That could be offset by advertising or a subscription fee like Tivo ...

Re:Piracy, my ass!

[Anonymous Coward]

Iknow you're just being a troll-boy, but fsck you!

There is nothing wrong with recording TV for your own use. Look up the Betamax decision, dumb ass.

Sourceforge project?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will somebody less lazy than me get a project rolling to put all this stuff together?

If there is an actual project, maybe I will find the energy to contribute, or more probably just sponge off what you do and bitch that it's not exactly what I want...

Re:Sourceforge project?

[Anonymous Coward]

LinuxTV works with DVB boards, since it manages the raw MPEG transport stream from DTV you don't have to mess about capturing or compressing or loose any quality.

Re:What am I gonna do about it? I 'm gonna pay...

[Moofie]

It was modded as funny because it's a Star Wars allusion. Darth Vader to Lando Calrissian.

Just FYI. : )

Moxie for me

[John Jorsett]

I'm not signing up for lifetime. If the Moxie lives up to its hype and becomes available this year as promised, I'm switching to that.

Re:Moxie for me

[zbuffered]

What's Moxie? I'm thinking of getting one, so if this thing's better, I'm all about it.

Re:Moxie for me

[John Jorsett]

Similar to Tivo, but you can add on more storage via a FireWire interface, and it can wirelessly transmit programming to remote locations. That's a brief, simplistic description that really doesn't do the product justice. I suggest reading up on it at their site.

http://www.moxi.com/product.htm

Re:Moxie for me

[maggard]

What's Moxie?

There's a decent write-up about Moxie (far better then what's on Moxie's website) on TechTV.

Essentially it's a TiVo with expanded capabilities. The CEO is from WebTV and has a good track record, on the other hand they've a late start into the market and are up against some powerfull licensees of TiVo & RePlay's technologies.

Its expected on the market for next winter's buying season if it finds partners.

Re:Moxie for me

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you didn't just use webtv and good track record in the same sentance.

Re:what are we gonna do about it? tivo needs the $

[rudedog]

I wasn't pissed. My cable company raises their prices every 6 months. This is the first price increase I've gotten from Tivo. I just forked over the $200 for the lifetime sub and was done with it.

30% Hike

[Prizm]

I've been a TiVO subscriber for about 4 months and I love it. Granted, I'm a bit irked about a 3 dollar increase (9.95 to 12.95 per month), but it's acceptable. I have become so reliant on TiVO that I often wonder how I watched TV for so long without it!

Of course, on the other hand, TiVO _did_ send me a neat TiVO sticker as compensation for the service hike. That makes it equal, right?

Financial Analysis

[mckwant]

A while ago, I did a quick NPV calculation on whether you ought to do the monthly scheme or the lifetime subscription. It was a while ago, but used $250 for the liftime sub and $10 for monthly. It also did yearly, but that option has gone away.

Anyway, although I didn't count the end value of the box at the end of the lifetime sub, the point at which the two plans cost the same amount was about 18 months. I'd think, with the new scheme, that the break even point would be shorter, say, 14 months or so. Notably, the yearly sub never made sense.

End result: If you're planning on keeping that specific TiVo for more than a year and a half, you're probably better off with the lifetime sub.

Besides, 30% of not much is even less....

Re:Financial Analysis

[alienmole]

Good analysis, but you forgot to factor in the risk of TiVo going out of business, which based on their cash burn rate, could be within a year. So to really do this properly, you'd want to hedge against that possibility, perhaps by shorting TiVo shares... :)

Re:Financial Analysis

[pauldy]

Boy if you think their burn rate will put them out in a year you need to read up on their financials.

Re:Financial Analysis

[alienmole]

Actually, I was just parroting what someone else said in this thread. This is /., there's no place for informed opinion here!

Re:TiVo Redux - USE GuidePlus!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your TV guide data will not allow you to do what TiVo does. When you can buy PC software that can do what TiVo does with guide data, then we can actually talk and make some valid comparisons with TiVo. Until then, it is all idle talk and lazy assertions of equivalency about a subject most of you know nothing about.

Re:What am I gonna do about it? I 'm gonna pay...

[NumberSyx]

It was modded as funny because it's a Star Wars allusion. Darth Vader to Lando Calrissian.

Okay, I feel stupid. My wife, who got it, is administering the Clue Stick now.

Walking on thin ice upgrading TiVos

[maggard]

Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives.

Yes, but I think Tivo would rather limit what you can do, so you have to buy another Tivo when you want more space. Of course, they haven't managed to prevent swapping hard drives.

Yet.

It would be a trivial operation to have the OS report back storage space and check if that is in line with the model (derived from the serial number.) While TiVo has let lots of hacking go on they've never (to my knowledge) in any way communicated this was something they supported or wouldn't shut down the day they felt the cost/benefit ratio was in their favor.

I'm not saying they're likely to but don't fool yourself; tomorrow they could cut those folks off, release a patch that limits machines to their proper size, does checks on the OS to make sure it isn't hacked, etc. Sure it would piss off many of TiVo's most ardent supporters but remember TiVo is going for the consumer electronics model of business, not the computer end of it.

I'm likely to buy an "upgraded" TiVo myself at some point but I'll do so knowing full well that it's at my own risk and there are no guarantees (like the 3rd party folks won't fold up 30 minutes after the shit hits the fan?)

Re:Walking on thin ice upgrading TiVos

[quintessent]

I agree with you on this. One thing that's a little scary is that it's connecting to their server every morning, and who knows what it could be downloading.

I'm thinking of buying an All-in-Wonder Radeon 7500. Not too expensive. Comes with a wireless remote. And they give you the TV listing info for free. And, of course, you can attach as many hard drives as you want. Of course, there's also the new HDTV recorder card for $399. But I don't like that they encrypt what you record...

difference between DirecTivo and regular Tivo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've owned one of the old Tivo's for about a year now. It's the one with no buttons on the unit (only operable by remote control) and settings for recording at Basic, Medium, High, and Best "resolutions". I purchased a lifetime subscription as well and upgraded it to 100 hrs.

What I don't understand is what is DirecTivo, and why is it so much cheaper for the unit? The monthly fee is greater because you're paying for the DirecTV feed, but other than that, how is it different from old Tivo? Does it come with a lifetime plan? I heard that you can't set the "resolution". Is it hard-drive-uprgradeable like my old Tivo?

So what's the difference, and should I "upgrade" to the DirecTivo? Thanks for any info.

Re: Lifetime subs

[Scryber]

I got my Tivo last April. Based on the cost of monthly subscription versus lifetime membership at that time, I decided that a lifetime membership was the best course. Basically, I would have to use/own the Tivo for 20 months for that investment to be worthwhile.

Well I've totally fallen in love with Tivo, and now have only 9 months left for the membership to have paid for itself. Will I still be using it then? I don't doubt it for a second. Tivo isn't going anywhere, not with their partnership with Sony, plus the pending merger of DirecTV and EchoStar.

Is it wise to get a lifetime subscription today? I think that even today that would be a good deal, as it safeguards you against further price increases, but YMMV. Do the math and determine if you think you will be using the device for at least two years--usually a good bet with most devices.

BTW, even if Tivo were to fold, it would not mean we would all have useless Tivo boxes. On the Tivo forums one of the Tivo techs has made it clear that in the event of Tivo's demise, he will personally provide the backdoor code to "free" the Tivo from the subscription services. Presumably this means the Tivo would function just as it does today but without any further software updates.

More likely a bad hard drive or reindexing/GC

[msobkow]

More likely your hard drive is failing. I had upgraded to an 80GB Seagate ST380020A 5400RPM which worked fine for about 4-5 weeks, then I started getting spontaneous reboots and capture glitches. I've replaced that drive with a pair of Maxtors and all is well again. (I followed the instructions at http://www.newreleasesvideo.com/hinsdale-how-to/ in an afternoon.)

Hard drives are physical devices and while they may test ok from a storage device perspective, that doesn't necessarily mean they can push data at a steady enough data rate for the DirecTiVO to record two data streams and play back a third.

If this was Wednesday night a couple weeks ago with a DirecTiVO, it wasn't your TiVO that flaked out, but DirecTV making a mess of the local channels again. They are getting so aggressive in their anti-piracy measures that it's starting to affect paying customers.

Also if you're on DirecTV, you may be seeing compression glitches that are the result of DirecTV's aggressive compression. With DirecTiVO, the unit just stores the data stream from the satellite and doesn't recompress the data. Those glitches are the result of signal errors (very rare) and severe bit rate compression (quite common.) Alas, the bit rate problem won't go away as long as DTV is trying to push so many channels without having a lot more bandwidth available.

A final possibility if you are getting periods of jerky/pausing playback is that the garbage collection/reindexing tasks are running. After a few weeks of comparing the logs to the periods when I have playback problems I've noticed that GC/reindex of large drives takes 10-20 minutes, during which playback is unreliable. The unit is smart enough to schedule these tasks to run when no recordings are scheduled, so your recordings are safe.

Re:More likely a bad hard drive or reindexing/GC

[micsaund]

Other people that have TiVo's at work have been seeing the same issues, so I doubt we're all having HD failures simultaneously.

This is on a non-DirecTV TiVo -- just a plain-jane *stock* unit, no dual-tuners, no ultra high bitrate, anything.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I've looked at all of the points you provided and I'm pretty sure it's problems with the software. Friends at work confirm this.

Re:More likely a bad hard drive or reindexing/GC

[msobkow]

I'll not argue with your evidence. In further support of your point, it's also only in the past 4-6 weeks that I've noticed playback problems during indexing/GC regardless of the size of the drives in use. Until then I've known of people using pairs of 120GB HDD without issue.

On the flip side, the crashing stopped after I restored the backup image and let it refresh from the servers again. Theoretically I should be running the same software image as everyone else, except that I might have skipped over some intermediate patch between early January (first backup/upgrade) and the most recent restoration. My issues for the past couple weeks have been directly correlated to DirecTV anti-piracy measures, despite my having a fully paid subscription for both DTV and TiVO service.

I leave the cover off now as I consider 50C too hot for any electronics to be running (dual 7200 RPM Maxtors), regardless of what Sony/TiVO consider "normal".

Re:More likely a bad hard drive or reindexing/GC

[pauldy]

I'm curious as to these few people who say everyone they know has problems with their tivo yada yada. Why haven't I met any of these people why haven't I experienced any of this and why is there never a resolution for them. Including just returning the obviously defective unit. I guess that just one of those unanswered questions much like the old why are their trolls on slashdot question.

Re:More likely a bad hard drive or reindexing/GC

[msobkow]

Well, you never know when "everyone they know" is the co-worker down the hall (i.e. one other person.) And when someone claims that others "have the same issues" but no one has tried replacing their HDD I find it hard to take the problem report too seriously.

There is also no mention of whether micsaund and his friend(s) are using UPS power protection (TiVO units are computers, after all!), surge protecting their cable feeds, etc. If their cable company took a major lightning strike that surged everyone's equipment around the same time it would explain everyone having glitches in the same period. If the power conditions in the whole town have been unstable and no one is using UPS units to stabilize brownouts, they will all have similar data transfer problems.

While returning a defective unit might seem an obvious solution, it isn't very feasible when you've waited until one week after your warranty expired to upgrade to an 80GB HDD, and the problems start 4-6 weeks after that... *g*

Re:Service? - Interesting Solution

[cristofer8]

Supposedly MS will be releasing XP SP1 by the end of the year, containing Freestyle software. Freestyle lets you control Windows from a remote control, presenting a special UI and features just for that. The features included DVD playback, etc, and also television recording, pausing, just like the TiVO. Basically, MS disbanded it's ultimate TV, and sent the developers to either the Freestyle camp or the XBox camp.

uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you do your own research? Like look at Tivo.com? Or the message boards at Tivocommunity.com? This question has been asked and answered a million times. Retard.

I paid $99

[ehintz]

At Best Buy, on sale, the day after Xmas. I got the Hughes unit, but other units are generally about the same price or even sometimes cheaper. The Hughes unit is model # GXCEBOT, Phillips has the DSR6000, and there are others. Your local Best Buy should carry it even if they haven't the slightest what it is, or you can get it from various online outfits. Check out American Satellite for good info. Prices seem OK too.

AmericanSatellite.com link from Tivo

[mgkimsal2]

Tivo.com has links to some stores, including http://www.americansatellite.com/products/list.asp ?affl=NT99120101&id=106&CAT=13306&mfg=philips from their 'specials' page.

I got 2 phillips DSR6000s from them. One was $99.99, then I waited a couple weeks, and the price went up to $109.99. Still a good price, considering the walmart down the street had them in stock for $399.99. "No, we don't match prices from the internet!" they cheerily replied when I asked about buying one at a reduced cost. No wonder they had an inch of dust on them - they'll NEVER shift them at that price.

You say "what's the deal with the thing?" The deal is it's a great replacement reciever if you have DirecTV already. It's really INEXPENSIVE actually, compared to retail standalone Tivo devices.

Re:AmericanSatellite.com link from Tivo

[msobkow]

I got my equipment from American Satellite. They provided excellent, timely service and good prices. When the so-called "Ultimate" TV proved to be anything but and did the ever-popular spontaneous M$ crash, ASE cheerfully let me exchange it for a TiVO. As this was within a few weeks of the original purchase, they gave me full credit towards the TiVO, treating it as an RMA with no restocking fee. All it cost was the price difference between the units and the shipping charges to send the UTV back to them.

The only hassle I had was over a dish cover, and even for that they did a good job of getting the problem straightened out. Both I and they were frustrated by the time I got the cover I originally ordered, but with all the shipping charges they lost money rather than letting a customer go away unhappy.

No, I don't work for them, own stock, have relatives who work there, etc. I was just really impressed with how far they went to ensure I was happy with the equipment I ordered.

O well

[Cyberglich]

It had to happen eventually. I have had a tivo for years now (back when there were 500 bucks for a 13 hour model) Luckily for me I bought the lifetime back then when it was my lifetime not my units :). I think its still worth it TIVO is always adding new stuff to the units (I am in the beta group) and there customer service is allot better then allot of companies I deal with.

Re: Lifetime subs

[Anonynnous Coward]

On the Tivo forums one of the Tivo techs has made it clear that in the event of Tivo's demise, he will personally provide the backdoor code to "free" the Tivo from the subscription services.

And he would then be arrested and charged with a DMCA violation at the behest of the company that acquired their assets. He won't keep that promise, I'd wager.

Deal on lifetime subscriptions

[xihr]

Don't forget that because of the increase, they're giving a $50 break on the lifetime subscription price, bringing it down to only $200.

An interesting problem

[SkOink]

I think that TiVo's rate hike, that and the temporary lowering of the lifetime registration fee by $50, is intended to convince customers to spend the dough on a lifetime registration. If Joe Customer spends the money($150?) to register his TiVo for life NOW, then he'll end up still paying if he gets a new v2 TiVo, since the subscription is non-transferrable. Seems like a plot by TiVo to gain some extra funds.

Re:An interesting problem

[Anonymous Coward]

You cracked the case sherlock. Someone should give you a cupi doll. Get real not everything in life is a mystery waiting to be solved and if it were lord help us if it were only you on the case.

Re:An interesting problem

[dajalas]

Back when I paid for lifetime membership, the policy was that if the TiVo unit died, the exisitng membership would transfer to the replacement unit.

Re: Lifetime subs

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you actually suggesting that the Tivo hacking crowd wouldn't have a working alternative to the built-in guide system within the first month of Tivo going under?

Such hacks are not _attempted_ now because it would be a real case of biting the hand that feeds (such a hack would result in a new tivo software image that broke the hack and tightened tivo security, exactly what nobody wants). As long as Tivo is in buisness they get their check, they fall off the radar and lots of folks save 12 bucks a month.

Re: Lifetime subs

[Anonynnous Coward]

No--I'm sure there are subscription hacks that have been done already. I just doubt that an insider would risk prosecution by letting go of any TiVo installed backdoors in the boxes. Someone will own those assets, even in the case of TiVo's bankruptcy or hostile acquisition.

Re:TiVo Redux - USE GuidePlus!

[Cramer]

Ignoring the problems of multiple copyrights and patents...

Microsoft didn't "give" you anything; you paid for it. (or stole it.)

You must be really smart

[bLanark]

I would have to agree, there is some serious computer and electronic skills that you must understand before hacking those cards. I haven't even figured it out yet.
Or put another way.... I can't do it, and I know I'm clever, so they must be really clever.

Re:You must be really smart

[pauldy]

Has nothing to do with how clever you are it has a lot to do with how much you know about digital systems and how they behave. You can after all know every file setting and registry entry in Win95 and still no jack squat about computing if you don't know the difference between a nand gate and a pop tart.

Re:You must be really smart

[Graspee_Leemoor]

" if you don't know the difference between a nand gate and a pop tart."

As we all know, and boolean logic can be expressed if you simply use enough pop tarts.

graspee

Re:You must be really smart

[Graspee_Leemoor]

oops

"ANY boolean logic can be expressed if you simply use enough pop tarts"

graspee

something new?

[Alien Being]

About 5 this morning, i was surfing the tv and came across a channel that seemed to be trasferring tivo information.

The screen had vertical black bars on the left. The right was divided vertically into 2 frames which were filled with black and white square, surely a binary stream. Between the data frames, was a band with a text message something like "this channel is part of the tivo service".

Has anyone else seen this? Is it an alternative to dialup? Does using it eliminate the need to transmit anything back to tivo? Is it free?

Re:something new?

[DevNova]

Recently, TiVo started a new "feature" where the unit can provide/feature video for special purposes. Before the Superbowl, there was a special promotion with BMW where TiVo users could watch BMW commercials and answer an online quiz for a chance to win a BMW. Some special Superbowl video was also offered and trailers to upcoming programs. What you were seeing on that latenight channel was TiVo downloading encoded video data to the unit for later playback.

It's obviously much slower than just sending the video down, but I'm sure it contains other information like cue/start/end points; where to store the video; where it will be available (TiVo menu items), etc.

Life-time service = non-viable for upgrading

[ratajik]

One thing that makes the life time service non-viable for me is the whole "tied to the machine" thing. If you buy life time service, you buy it FOR THAT MACHINE. If you sell it, it goes with the machine. If you, like most people, will be upgrading the machine to a new one at some point, you are SOL. You either go back to monthly or buy a new lifetime.

I had thought about buying the lifetime service, but when I read this, quickly changed my mind....

Re:what are we gonna do about it? tivo needs the $

[flerchin]

What I just don't get is why they are bleeding money? Since they don't actually make or sell the recorders it seems to me that the only thing the tivo company is responsible for is collating the tv guide data, making bux fixes, and distributing said data and bug fixes. I fail to see how $10/month from each and every customer doesn't already pay for those services. They should already have a viable and profitable business based on what they have. Forget growth! What they have now should be quite the lucrative business. Let's do the math $10/month times 200k plus subscribers is $2 million a month. Argh, I realize the parent of this post doesn't have the answer to my question, but i sure wish someone did!

P.S. I am a tivo subscriber and user, and yes it's only $3 more per month, but that's my money!

Re:what are we gonna do about it? tivo needs the $

[Anonymous Coward]

Advertising, promotion and subsidization, I'd say.

Re: Lifetime subs

[pauldy]

Their are subscription hacks that have been done and are being done in areas were Tivo itself is not able to provide the guide data. For those of use who are able to follow directions and feel comfortable hakcing the tivos bringing the units online in the unlikely event Tivo goes under would not be a problem. I don't know why people bring this up the only company that has show they have this problem is replay via their press releases and various people dropping their "technology".

Re:what are we gonna do about it? tivo needs the $

[pauldy]

You reading the same stats I am. I'm reading that they have shown losses since they atarted and peaking in their losses 3 months ending January 31 of 2001 and tappering off ever since while revenues still rose. I could be crazy but I'm pretty sure it's just you.

Re:what are we gonna do about it? tivo needs the $

[pauldy]

If you look at the sheets he was reffering to you would see that actual revenues are approxamatly 5 million per quarter currently. Just for a quicky of why they are still in a loss mode they were obligated to provide NBC with about 5 million for advertising not to long ago. I would recomend you read their filing in full to get the real picture instead of excerpts given out by people who may or may not be qualified to give you the synopsis of the report.
http://biz.yahoo.com/e/011217/tivo.html

Re: Lifetime subs

[Anonynnous Coward]

I'm not trying to pick on TiVo in particular--all the PVRs are subject to downgrading, etc. as the companies change hands or lose in court. I'm glad to hear there's a vibrant hacker community taking care of the store, though.

lucky bastards you are....

[mbennis]

You americans must feel lucky with this great product, while, here in EUROPE we dont have the equivalent....
So if i were you, i'd pay more than that to have a product like this.

SonicBlue put out v3.02 for Showstopper last week.

[mookoz]

on Feb 28th 2002.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?th re adid=121456

Not dead at all, since SonicBlue now owns Replay. How about checking some facts before you post?

Re:TiVo Redux - USE GuidePlus!

[AmigaAvenger]

It was in reference to pulling up an interactive guide ONLY, nothing about Tivo functions. It is possible with a PC using software included with Windows to view GuidePlus data, and if you do some looking you will see it is not that hard to gather that data yourself either.