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Pay Dirt in Scanned Driver's Licenses
The New York Times has a good article explaining why handing over your national ID card to be scanned may not be such a good idea.
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What happens if you don't have a driving license?
Is it some kind of 'drivers only' club?
are my own. Any bar that is scanning my ID and keeping a record or pulling other data is not getting my business. Then again, when I buy beer at the grocery store and put it on my debit card, it is doing the same thing.
We (the collective us) have been rushing at a breakneck speed down the tunnel of complete mediation. Everything about us will be known. Except perhaps to ourselves.
Wow, that was pretty deep for this early in the morning...
Enter with username/password nospam.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
I would be more concerned if there is enough info on the stripe to impersonate someone and drain their finances. As for tracking ones movements, I feel that that will become inevitable through a multitude of security devices. That becomes like surfing the net- white noise save all for the most determined voyeurs.
Here is Yahoo!'s coverage: Finding Pay Dirt in Scannable Driver's License
Fortran programmer...oh yeah. Array math for life!
Kinda says it all, don't it?
Forget the personals, now stalkers and sex-deprived rejects alike can flip through pretty damned detailed records to find that special someone.
Some of the information collected such as eye color, height and such doesn't bother me to compile, since that information is publicly available.
However, I hold a chauffeur's license. It requires that I furnish my Social Security number, which should not be publicly available.
I feel I should not have to change my license (or profession, if I still was doing such) just to protect my privacy.
... I think.
One of the points the proponents of these scanning machines said in the article that these machines don't violate privacy because they're just reading out the same information that is on the front of the drivers license. Of course, technically this is true, and it is just the same as if someone was photocopying every license that is shown at the door, but it's also alot different.
Think about this... if you were walking in the park with someone, and you were talking about your girlfriend and some new car that she just bought, and someone walks by and happens to overhear you talking about this, it's not an invasion of privacy. You're in the park, it's a public place. Now think of the same situation, but someone is following you around with a microphone recording everything you say. Technically it's still not an invasion of privacy because you're in a public place, and because you're saying it in public, it's public information, but it's still a Completely Different thing.
-Matt
Free Your Mind
I remember a few years back there was this huge scandal in Canada where people had devised a Palm Pilot add on which could act as a magnetic strip reader.
You could swipe any card and it would extract the information from the magnetic strip and store it in a database.
Rescently we've been working with Card readers here at my company and let me tell you, there is some interesting information on those cards.
Basically, there's two 'tracks' of data. ASCII data of course. I think the limit is 64 Characters per track. It was fun to to go swiping cards to see what information was stored on them. Student IDs, Drivers Liscences, Credit Cards, Health Cards, Hotel Room Keys and even some other strips worked (FastPass anyone ?).
The down side is these readers can cost upwards of $300 to $500 and the Driver Software leaves -little- to be desired (VB anyone ?), but then again, it's OEM hardware so we were lucky to even get software support.
Okay, I see stories like this on the news all the times, supposedly showing how our personal private lives are being invaded. Bunk!
If you don't want to reveal personal info, don't go into that club! I am sure that there are plenty of gin mills in Gotham that won't mind if you're anonymous. Now, the club should let you know that it has access to, and may be storing your personal information, but its like, jeesh guys, if they are scanning your drivers license on the way in, you might have an idea that the device doing this is going to capture data.
If you want to remain anonymous you can. Many bars still take cash, and are happy just glancing at your ID. Better yet, if you are an old fart like me, you don't ever get carded any more, so its easy for to remain anonymous. In fact, my life is so hopelessly boring that so far, no one has expressed any interest in tracking my actions. Just the other day in fact, the lady at the Safeway looked at my member card and said "no thanks." How depressing.
www.avacal.com -- the home page of pete shaw
If you have a driver's license with a magnetic strip- just rub it over with a strong magnet until its blanked.
The license is still valid- the mag-strip is only there for "convenience", its whats on the front that counts.
The difference is that no bouncer/clerk/etc is going to have time te key in all that data, and you return to the gentle ranks of the anonymous dues to the carless oblivion of human short term memory.
You see the pattern? What's an ID card going to do? All your purchasing data and aggregate information already belong to some shady corporation.
If you don't trust your government, then fine. Why do you trust the corporations then?
And people are going to hate it for the same reason that the RIAA and MPAA hate computers--because collecting data slowly by hand is one thing, but the speed with which you can collect a huge amount of data with a computer is another. Ripping an MP3 is not much different from taping a song for all practical purposes, but the fact that it's digitized and compressed means it's easy to share and copy. Having an attendant furiously writing down names is one thing, getitng it all in a <1 second DL swipe is another.
Same thing with automated face recognition-- putting cops everywhere with mug books is one thing, cameras hooked up to recognition software is quite another.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Most likely old news to many here but state Department of Moter Vehicles used to, as a general practice, sell personal information collected from people's driver's licences to marketing organizations. That was pretty lame, as the DMV has a monopoly on driver's licences, of course.
I say used to, as the US Supreme Court unanimously ruled it to be wrong in early 2000.
If Slashdot is where the spelling-challenged go when they die, I'm in heaven.
username: cypherpunks516
password: cypherpunks
</kama ho>
Grocery stores are doing this now too. They have these "savings cards" that they give to you, if you fill out a form that asks for all kinds of information. They mark up the prices on everything, for example, a 2 liter of coke or pepsi is $3.00, but with the "shoppers card" you can buy it for $1.00, which is the original price. Meanwhile, when you swipe your card at the checkout, they track your purchasing habits. So if the feds want to know who is buying large amounts of cheez whiz they know where to go...
That's why I used an alias for mine, I can get the "normal" prices and the gov doesn't have to know about my M&M addiction.
Try this:
1. Click the link http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/technology/circu its/21DRIV.html from the main page.
2. This brings you to the redirect URL: http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.n ytimes.com/2002/03/21/technology/circuits/21DRIV.h tml
3. Replace the first "www" with the word "college" (or the word "archive").
So it now looks like:
http://college.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://w ww.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/technology/circuits/21DR IV.html
Then go to that page. Voila, no registration required.
Adversive
My cat's breath smells like cat food.
You could also move someplace that doesn't use them. Nevada still uses old-school Polaroid-generated licenses, for instance. (I think that might change in the next few years...on the upside, though, they quit issuing licenses with numbers derived from your SSN a few years ago.)
It'd be interesting to see what would happen if you "accidentally" left a license with a magnetic strip sitting on top of a really powerful magnet...assuming that all the stuff anybody needs is also printed on the license, maybe that's a fix for your problem.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
dont have to....
Go home, take a nice fridge magnet... that pizza place magnet will do..
set the magnet on the strip, rub a few times... Voila
Then they have to type it in.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I think that the points of the story is that:
* The information is all encoded on the back
* The primary way people would check your age or other information would be to scan the back
* The information could be used for more than you would think.
Yes, my name, address, height, etc. is on the front, but when I go into a club and they check my ID, they just look at the date. What the author is saying is that they are doing the equivalent of looking at everything on the entire license, and writing it down.
-sk
Maybe if youre the only one with a blanked license they could single you out, but its not uncommon for a licence a few years old to be unreadable. I worked as a grocery clerk for several years, and I can tell you that about 5%-10% of all credit cards are unreadable, and they are replaced much more frequently that driver's licenses. (probably because they are used that much more often)
Also there is the fact that they are in business to make money- they wont woo many customers by turning away obvious adults with valid licenses.
And cmon- The hologram, micro print, state seal, and all that other stuff have to count for something...
user id to login
user = slashdot2004
pwd= slashdot2004
dont be tracked
.sigs suck, thus nothing here.
This article points out several issues with using driver's licenses for ID:
1. They include information that's specific for driving that may be used other identifying features.
2. Each state has it's own standard. For example, some store social security numbers, other fingerprints, most store address, etc.
The core failing of this issue is that driver licenses (and social secuirity numbers) were never designed nor intended to provide general identification.
What is required is a standard that appies to the entire country for what can be used on ID's. One solution is to establish a National ID, administered by the federal government, which would replace the state drivers licenses and social security numbers strictly for providing identification in a secure manner. Another solution would be for the federal goverment to establish guidelines to be followed by the states in establishing IDs.
The current situation is unacceptable from both a privacy and an identification point of view.
I suspect that some places, particularly bars and banks, will assume that the license is forged and treat you/it differently...
She is of Chinese background. Eight is a lucky number in Chinese culture, and her parents wanted to give her a lucky middle name. If I recall correctly, this would not be so exotic in Chinese, where ideograms and sounds have multiple meanings (in fact, I think lucky numbers often get their "lucky" quality from the fact that the characters and/or sounds for such numbers resemble other words which have positive meanings).
It has apparently caused her some grief when dealing with computerized systems which flag "8." as a typo in the middle initial field, but she has stuck with it.
For another weird numerical name, do a Google search for guy that works for Microsoft whose first name is "M3." It's really bizarre...I don't know the story behind that one.
I think this raises an interesting question. What information about me is legitimately private, and what isn't?
The knee-jerk reaction, of course, is to say that everything is private unless I choose to release it. But that approach doesn't work in practice. There are too many instances in which information about me needs to be publicly available. To pick a silly example, it's important that it be public knowledge that somebody lives in my home, because if the building catches on fire I want people to let me know and help me get out.
So some information really should be explicitly public knowledge, and it's important that everybody accept that, especially privacy advocates. We can then have a reasoned discourse about where to draw that line.
Think about your phone number. The phone company publishes your name and phone number in their directory unless you pay an additional fee for an unlisted number. This has been the status quo for my entire life-- 30 years-- and certainly much longer. So it's got a pretty good precedent going. So is my phone number private information by default? Not really. Should it be? Hmm... maybe. If I express no preference at all, should the phone company publish my name, address, and phone number or not?
The other end of the spectrum is information that's clearly private, and protected by law. My medical records and the contents of my communications with my lawyer are explicitly private. If a court wanted to know what my doctor said to me last week, they couldn't ask. It's private.
Everything else is in the middle. Is my street address private? No, by the phone book argument. What about the number of people who live in my house? Maybe. How about their ages, genders, and sexual preferences? Hmm.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: our society seems to accept as a given that we should each have the right to keep stuff private. The slippery slope argument, though often specious at best, implies that the right to keep stuff private must only be abridged when there's no alternative. But everywhere you look there's ambiguity about this principle. Go back to the phone book example; the phone company assumes you want to publish your name, address, and phone number unless you explicitly tell them-- and pay them!-- not to. Likewise, the bar mentioned in the article assumes that it's okay for them to collect demographic information from you.
Where is the line between stuff that is assumed to be private unless explicitly waived, and stuff that's assumed to be public unless explicitly withheld? Like I said before, in principle the line is all the way over to one side: everything is private unless waived. But in the real world, that line will have to be moved a little bit so that some things are public information by default.
I don't have any answers. Just questions.
...is a magnet.
While I'm not defending the practice, I'm reminded what I felt when two of the three big chain grocery stores went to a frequent user card.
I went defiantly to the third. NOBODY needs to know when I buy my Milk and Eggs!
When somebody pointed out that Costco, the Chain I love and frequent, and am frankly a cult member of, does the SAME THING, and has done so for YEARS before the Grocery Stores did it really brought me up short.
This is unfortunately a sign of the times. And without turning unibomber and living in a shack in Wyoming, there's not really much you can do about it. It's similar to the emissions and seat belt laws in the 70's. TONS of people didn't like it, but now it's commonplace.
I doubt it's going to turn into the 1984 that the alarmists paint it as, but It's also going to make more than a few people more than a little upset when it's abused. (IT WILL BE ABUSED. And when it does, the public outcry will make it financially unadvisable to abuse it further.)
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Don't you people realize that at least 3 different companies already HAVE your info, and are selling it?
1. Car Dealer
2. Insurance Company
3. Bank
Unless you're all 16 (which sometimes I think), you have a decent car, which you got a loan for, and didn't lie when you filled out 5 copies of the same damn form.
I'm a Slashdot reader! My privacy is so important, I WANT corporations to make money off my information, instead of the DMV, so when the DMV needs more more money, they can raise taxes..
Yeah, that's intelligent. Let's remove a form of revenue from a place that MUST exist..
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
For full access to our site, please complete this simple registration form.
Does anyone else find that hilarious?
Any lawyers out there?
I'm curious if I can obtain a copyright on my personal information... or perhaps if the hospital where I was born, having produced the initial birth certificate, holds a copyright.
The mag stripe is digital media.
That would mean that the scanners fall under the SSSCA, and if that law passes, no one could make a copy of my personal information from my driver's license, right?
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
I wonder if the SSN gets encoded on the magnetic stripe if you request it not be on the face of the license?
Then, buried way down at the end is this little gem...
Any sane person would point out that the bouncer "could" record the information by photocopying, yes, but he couldn't do so without being detected.
Also, because one use of the technology (license) would allow overt data collection doesn't necessarily mean that you SHOULD have the god-given right to collect data surreptitiously with the same technology.
Who did what now?
If you go out to the bar, then the terrorists have already won.
Now think of the same situation, but someone is following you around with a microphone recording everything you say.
Or let's stick with out doorman checking your ID. Suppose when he did, he took out a book and started writing down everything on it. How many people would demand their ID back and complain to managment that it was none of the doorman's damn business?
Nope, no sig
Still, this article's theme provokes some thoughts:
What will change in 2004 when it has to be renewed?
If I could read either stripe, would I find that the privacy statement was inaccurate?
After all, we've had a Republican governor here for way too many years.....
db
Cig:
ôô
Here, try this: http://www.majcher.com/nytview.html
It's a simple HTML/javascripty thing to automatically generate a random NYTimes login every time you want to view a story. Just cut and paste the nytimes.com url you want to view, and hit the button.
If you could, please try to save the page locally and use it from your server or desktop, to keep the traffic to my server reasonable. Distribute at will.
Two recently published polls show that support for a national ID card has decreased. Results from a poll on the February 27 Washington Post Federal Page showed that public opinion was divided on the issue, with 47% of Americans thinking that national ID will improve interaction with government and business and 44% viewing it as "an invasion of people's civil liberties and privacy." A new survey released on March 12 by Gartner Inc. found that 26 percent of Americans are in favor of a national ID card, while 41 percent oppose the idea.
See Wired News: Support for ID Cards Waning
-
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
In the article, a fan of the technology mentions that the machine is only scanning what's on the front of the license. This may be true, but depending on where you live, that can be a lot more info than you want people tracking.
In the state of Massachusetts, unless you request otherwise, your license number is your social security number. Granted, license records are public, so if you want, you can get the info anyway, but it seems that allowing someone to scan your license and get not only your physical info, but also your SSN is not very smart.
That brings us to the question of who is going to be responsible for the data - if a restaraunt isn't careful with their database and an unscrupulous employee snags it, they now have hundreds of records with names, addresses, height, weight, and SSNs. There's all kinds of mischief they could wreak with that kind of info. In these days of rampant credit card fraud and identity theft, you'd think people would think things through a little better.
Lastly, what about lawsuits? Could I sue a bar that, without my explicit permission, scanned my card and recorded all the data? If a business was busily copying down all the info on the front of my license, I would certainly object. If I didn't know they were doing it, I would have no chance to...
-skip
Make some stray marks with a pen or marker around the bar code. That will prevent the machine from being able to read it. They'll try to scan it a few times, it won't work, so they'll just look at the birthdate - and you won't be databased.
... well, that's when it will be time for a new game plan.
ID cards, after all, live in wallets, purses, etc., and are bound to get scratched up in every day use. There will be no way to tell that you sped up that process.
When it comes to the point that a RF chip is in the card, and a non-funtioning card must be replaced
I don't remember ever getting one. Even if I did, it would dissapear, never to be seen from again. And yes, Mr. Ashcroft, I know you have someone reading this right now... Kiss my Big 'ol Butt!
The article doesn't mention anything about Regular ID's? What if I don't drive a car? A lot of people walk, use mass transit, and ride a bicycle. And not just teenagers, I know a lot of people that don't drive. Some by choice, some by law, but either way they don't have a drivers license, only one of those state provided ID's. Does that store the same information as the drivers license?
And secondly, What if I don't want to have my drivers license scanned? Are they going to default to assuming that it's fake and I'm a fraud? I sure hope there are laws that prevent business from limiting it's customers to only those who comply to having their ID's scanned into a database. I get enough junk in my regular mail, I don't need anymore, and I sure don't want to be banned from every bar, nightclub and convenence store in my area because I choose not to give my personal information to anyone that asks for it.
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
As long as you don't want to ever buy or do anything or go anywhere at all ever again, you'll never have to hand over your <strike> de facto mandatory national ID</strike> completely voluntary driver's license, right?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Throw off the chains of Mad Deadly Worldwide Gangster Communist Frankenstein Radio Earphone Slavery and depolarize your driver's licence stripe! Buy an ell-skin wallet. Abrade the back with sandpaper. Better yet, re-encode the stripe with the word VOID for each piece of information you don't want to be public.
I didn't see anything obvious in the barcode that did not already appear on the front. I asked that my SSN not appear on the front, and I also did not see it in the barcoded data.
There were around 20 bytes of extra binary data which I didn't put much effort into further decoding. I compared the data on my license with the data from the license of friends and family, some bytes matched, some did not.
No special equipment is needed, any good scanner will work, you do need to make sure that the ID card is aligned at right angles to the scanner, and turn off any anti-speckle features in your software.
Most of the barcode data extraction software for Windows will accept a TIFF file, I haven't found any good free software that directly supports a TWAIN or other scanner plug-in.
The free demo software I found will also generate 2-D barcodes as TIFF files...
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
My bank in Tennessee had signs all over the place saying that they would not accept the State "ID Card" for some reason. Not sure if that is still in effect, but I *think* the issue is that the State is not as careful about checking/requiring records for issuing the ID card as they are about issuing a DL.
The GOOD thing about a TN DL is that there is no "big brother magnetic strip" on the Driver's Licenses, nor a barcode! Just your DL # and no SSAN if you want it omitted.
TN only recently began requiring SSAN as a condition of licensing. They always asked for it, but if you did not "remember" your SSAN or did not have one, they would not deny licensing you on that basis.
I just renewed mine a few months ago, tried to do it through their web interface, but they made me call in and give my SSAN, then verified it (someplace) before renewing my license.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
...is the license still valid?
Can a bar refuse to honor a driver's license as proof of age if the strip is demagnetized?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
My passport doesn't have a magnetic strip. It's supposed to be official id. What would happen if you started going to these places with no drivers license and only a passport? Or some other form of id (military, etc)?
Jason
Of course, to read the article you need to login so they can scan your information.
Sir_Haxalot
stuff |
Just make a purchase at your local big box retailer with a check. Set your license on the security device (the one with the big 'no card' logo). By the time the clerk is ready to punch your numbers it should be good and blank.
Or just sand off the stripe. If anyone asks, you are an avid skateboarder and you had a little accident with your DL in your back pocket. If they press you, offer to show them the scars.
SD
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
I can't stop myself from rolling my eyes every time I read stuff like this.
There are 6 billion people in the planet, why would the "system" want to spy on you?
Maybe because you have terrorist plans or a HD full of kiddie porn. In that case, you SHOULD be spied on and put in jail.
I you are not a criminal, chill.
Companies, on the other hand, use personal info to try to target their advertising. Why is this so bad? I rather get advertising related to my interests than random crap. If they target it wrong, they won't sell and the problem will fix itself.
I *want* tiny devices that keep track of all my personal information, daily activities, location, friends, family, pets and bathroom supplies. - As long as it's useful for *me*.
Let's stop being paranoid and start innovating.
I stopped contributing to WETA, a Washington, DC public radio and TV station, some years ago when they admitted to selling my name and address to mailing lists. I knew they had done it before they told me because they had uniquely messed up my name on their labels and that same name kept cropping up time after time. They called me during their last fund-raiser and asked for a contribution. I told them that I would be happy to contribute but only after I went a year without getting any junk mail with that name on it!
"Love is a familiar; Love is a devil: there is no evil angel but Love." --William Shakespeare ('Love's Labors Lost')
This only reads the front, but rigging a similar shelf arrangement to scan the backside would not be difficult.
I checked out the 2-D barcode on the back of the Illinois license, and on mine, which does not have the SSN on the front, there is no SSN in the barcode.There does not appear to be any magstripe on the new Illinois licenses.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
IIRC the method for deriving you SSN from your nevada DL was (dl#+26)/2
might have another step... cant quite remember...
-nt-
From my understanding, it's illegal for anyone over the age of 18 to be in public without a valid form of picture identification. I don't know if this is true, but according to my old high school driver's ed teacher it is ;-) (info dated 4-5 years or so)
And as many people have already said, you can pick up a State ID Card from the DMV (in Pennsylvania at least) that costs all of $9 to get.
On another note, a friend of mine recently purchased a mag strip reader and from what he told me the only info on a PA driver's license is your License #, Full Name, Birthdate, and ZipCode (and oddly enough, everything is in plaintext)
Sorry for the rambling...
--Justin
But by default... the drivers license number *IS* your SSN. I suspect many people don't care, I personally opted for a unrelated numerical ID instead of my SSN.
776 Park Avenue, Suite 340
Huntington, NY, 11743
631-421-2011
516-421-9350 FAX
It's not him, but give him a call anyway.
Junk mail can be entertaining....mail all the postage paid envelopes, that way the company has to pay the post office. The company has to pay before it is delivered, so they don't know it is return junk ahead of time. If everyone did this a) postage rates wouldn't rise so quickly, and b) the level of junk mail will drop when it starts costing them... I believe I single-handedly kept the last postage increase down by at least 1 (you can all thank me later...)
Check out these card readers...
Anyway.. you guys get the point..
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
Go home, take a nice fridge magnet... that pizza place magnet will do.. set the magnet on the strip, rub a few times... Voila
Some states use an extra-high coercivity stripe material that won't be degaussed by a 'fridge magnet.
Go to Radio Shack or a museum's tech-toy counter and get one of those supermagnets. Or just scratch until most of the stripe is worn off.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Where's the privacy policies?
Does the bar inform you that they are not only reading the information (okay IMHO) but SAVING the information (not okay IMHO)?
If they're going to save it, fine, but they need to tell us they're doing it so we can make an informed choice as to whether we want to patronize their establishment or not - and to express our discontent with their "policy".
'
I don't have a solution, but I certainly admire the problem.
I have been doing this to my licenses ever since
the advent of the stupid magnetic strip.
This way, people who need the info (e.g. police)
can still get it, but dickheads that like to track
the clientele in their bars dont.
It's not like they're not going to let someone old
enough pay the establishment 300% profit on alcohol
just because their license got demagnetized.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
While it is opt out rather than the Right Way to do it, you can stop junk (snail) mail in the U.S.
Some places can be dealt with by a simple phone call. Why send a catalog or such to someone who asks not to get it? It's just wasteful. Other places aren't as clueful, but if they are trying to sell soemthing, you can use USPS Form 1500 on them.
Form 1500 needs to be filled out, the offending mailed item opened (so that USPS personel don't break the 'never open anything' rule. Yes, they do take it seriously) and given to a clerk, though there it may help to see the postmaster, since s/he might be a bit more clueful. The form says it's about 'offensive' or 'adult' material, but it has been ruled (Supreme court case, late 1960s) that the recipient has "sole discretion" in deciding what is considered offensive. Don't like ads for socks? Fine, fill in the form. Once submitted, that party should no longer send any mail to you. If they do, they can explain why they broke the law... to someone who will be very interested, and unimpressed.
I don't subscribe to RMS's GNUtopian vision.
I think this is the final evidence that the libertarians have had it wrong for decades. They're always bugging out about the government this, government that. Turns out the CIA was uploading cookies and even they didn't know about it, for Christ's sake. I've worked in government, and I'm not going out on a limb when I say that the government is too damn incompetent to get anything useful out of tracking our M&M consumption habits, as it were.
It's the private sector that poses real risks to privacy. Uncle Sam is not about to track your damned underwear size so they can focus-group test when the ideal time to offer you a rebate on the 10-48 diet drink.
It may be cold, but at least it's clear.
I don't generally have a problem with companies that store data about the transactions that I have with them. It's when they start correlating that data with other sources that I start to get concerned.
In this example data gathered by the Registry of Motor Vehicles (or whatever your state calls them) is being correlated with services and purchases at a Bar.
The article mentioned the scenario of how a fictitious bouncer could use that data to stalk women.
There are many scenrios of abuse that this could be used for. Basically the technology allows for your movments and habits to be monitored very easily. That information could be used by others to your harm and detriment. It could be used by governements, businesses, or individuals.
In todays society it is alomst unthinkable to live without a drivers license. That makes it very difficult to opt out. Sure you can stop going out to clubs and restaurants. Perhaps you can use only public transportation. You could even pay cash for everything so theres no need to provide your license when presenting a credit card. It seems that giving up your privacy is becoming the price you must pay to participate in the beinfits of todays society.
The use of these devices is bound to increase as business look to reduce risks and increase profits. It's a very slippery slope. Think about where it's all likely to lead.
I used to think that George Orwell wrote Science Fiction.
And any business that wants to scan my driver's license to make sure my papers are in order before they sell me a drink isn't getting my business.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Find a large speaker magnet somewhere, and leave your license on it overnight. The magnetic strip will become unreadable, and anyone wanting to scan it will have to just look at it instead.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
You pulled that off of my homepage at E2, and E2 is linked at the top of each of my Slashdot posts. Don't pretend you're particularly clever.
Magnetic strips get erased or damaged so commonly that most people won't think twice about it.
Now those 2-D barcodes some states use are another matter. Those take a little working over with a magic marker. Or if you want to be more subtle, the precision application of some sandpaper.
No, it's not -- that information was MADE public, by me, on purpose. When you can give me the rest of my driver's license information with only a two-minute head start, I'll be suitably freaked out.
This one's easy. Just apply for a saver card with a false name and address. I usually use "George Orwell, 1984 Animal Farm Ln".
The statement that "the information is already on the front of the card therefore there are no privacy issues" totally misses the point. Think about the alternative. Instead of scanning the license, the bar has to write all of the info down or type it into a computer, just so you can go into the bar. No customer is going to sit there in the cold and wait for some bouncer that types 5 word per minute to fumble the info into a terminal. There are data entry errors to consider and in the first example below the data, though perhaps not all of it, has to be entered in repeatedly during a visit. Remember that technology serves to make menial, tedious tasks easier and orders of magnitude faster. In the time it takes for Bubba to transcribe the face of your drivers license, this scanner has taken 10 more IDs and updated a hundred databases around the world. The second that information becomes digital, it can be traded, sold, exploited a million times in a second totally unregulated. People who try to apply traditional reasoning to societal issues and technology truly don't understand. Sadly these people are the same ones who make your laws.
When you have a problem and you arrive at a possible solution you have to ask does this solution really solve my problem? Is this scanning solution to the underage drinking/smoking problem really even solving the problem? Ask the RIAA or the MPAA about their efforts to thwart piracy. Long story short, if you can come up with a way to prevent theft, or in this case fraud, someone can come up with a way to defeat it and come up with it faster than it took for you to devise it.
Lets take this scanning system a small step further. Now in this bar, you must show your ID to make your alcohol purchase. Your consumption is tracked and based upon the number of drinks, the strength of those drinks and your weight from your drivers license, it roughly calculates your blood alcohol level. Persons having too good a time tracked and the cops are waiting outside for you to get into your car. So, you might say that this would have a dramatic effect on the drinking and driving fatalities in this country. I reluctantly agree that in this small context that the end justifies the means. Less dead people is good right? Perhaps another example where it does not is necessary.
Now lets say that you are a responsible adult and when you do have too good a time at the pub you foot it home or call a cab. No cops, no night in the tombs (yeah, my Law & Order affection gives me away again) so things are good. Wrong. Remember this information is digital, anyone can buy it. What about your employer? You show up at the office after a weekend of partying only to find your stuff packed and your pink slip on your desk because you booze a little to much in you _off_ time. Or perhaps your auto insurance company buys the same info and considers you a higher risk, higher auto premiums. Same goes for cigarette purchases. Health insurance companies buy up the info and increase your premiums or cancel your policy when they see your addiction is getting out of hand.
The phrases that comes to mind are:
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".
or
"No Shirt? No Shoes? No Service".
If they don't want to let you in because you look suspicious, that's their right as a business. The same goes if they require a driver's license to get in. It's their business - their rules.
That much information could be quickly found on E2 and Google. The fact that my phone number is not on my driver's license, not to mention that you had to calculate the birth year and got it wrong, reassures me that you're not finding what it is you're trying to convince me you're finding.
In other words, my driver's license is still private, safely tucked into my wallet, which (after all) was my original point. And you're a juvenile and a troll for posting it just to get a rise.
The problem is that it's not blatantly false. Note that the wording is "business or other enterprise", which does not include public services. That's where the confusion originates. The real laws vary from state to state, but according to federal law, only federal agencies are restricted in the use of your SSN. State governments are not restricted in its use by federal law, although some states restrict its use by statute. So, although it's most likely legal for a state DMV to require your SSN, it's not beyond possibility that they aren't allowed to insist on your providing it. Check with your own state's laws to be certain.
Virg
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
You can demagetize anything with refrigerator magnet sized Nd magnets available for 15 bucks from wondermagnet.com. They can lift 100 pounds too. They also cause any tv/monitor CRT within 30 feet to go squrrelly and need degaussing. Although neither I nor anyone else should commit such a heinous crime, the thought of sticking one inconspicuously to the exit of a WAL*MART and watching to see how long it takes for them to figure out why they are having so many TV returns intrigues me.
Eat at Joe's.
They don't (or at least didn't in late 90's) even give you the option to use your SSN as the drivers License. When I went to get a new SS card (the old one had been through the wash too many times) the SS dude showed me something interesting.
In the small print on a SS card information (I don't think it's on the actual card, but the paper you have to tear the card out of), it states that it is unlawful to use your federal SSN for other means of identification or labeling (or something to that effect). Texas took that as meaning "Don't use this for state ID", thus the rules above...
just my $0.02
- Sig
When I was 16 and before I had my driver's license I had a checking account.
Having recently traveled overseas though I had a U.S. passport.
But a grocery store clerk refused to cash my check "without a driver's license", despite the fact that the passport represented an even more thorough form of identification.
So U.S. citizens get subjected to some of the same kind of stupidity, too.
But here's hoping that my next foreign trip my attempt to rent a car with only a U.S. license is not met with disappointment:)
"Provided by the management for your protection."
It's creepy
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Do you really think that would suffice? Consider recent history and id collection for spammer lists, which is a lot less valuable.
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
When she buys things with her credit cards, if it doesn't work, she gets them to type the # in manually, and I guess she'd do the same if she had to get a magstipe license.
I know I'm tempted to run a magnet across mine.
Cheers, Joshua
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
If anyone wants the info on my license, they can bloody well type it in again!
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Jeez. Sounds bad. Giving your personal information away every time your credit card is scanned.
About as bad as giving your personal information away for a nytimes.com account.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
Have you tried this, and do the bars care when your card is unreadable in their scanner? And, I seem to recall some airlines scanning drivers' licenses for boarding -- is that an issue with demagnetizing?
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
Having spent alot of time doing AI research, I definitley agree!
Most of the supermarkets in my area allow you to link a phone number to the card, so you can tell them the number every time you buy stuff and they can track your spending habits even if you forget the card. The cool thing is that phone numbers are easy to disseminate. For intsance: 8583362714 works at Ralphs and Vons and affiliated stores (safeway, pavilions, and some others i believe) in california. My purchasing history moves from southern california to northern california far more often than i do. Help it move somewhere else if you want!
And while the store may notice if you enter the number and address of their main office or a 555 number, i doubt there's much stopping you from using a pay phone outside and the name of you choosing. (Thank you Mr Hollings- you saved $3 on you purchase of wine and condoms today.)
NY State for isntance does not use magnets anymore. They use a scattered barcode type much like what UPS uses, so magnest are useless.
Well, you could take a pen or a marker or a blade and scratch off all that stuff, but I wouldn't do that.
I'm guessing more and more states, etc, will move towards using this type of "barcode" on their ID's.
"Time is long and life is short, so begin to live while you still can." -EV