Slashdot Mirror
Is Online Privacy Getting Better?
jeffy124 writes: "It appears marketers are finding that there's little value in stockpiling the personal info of web users. Either that or they're responding to the negative feedback of users. In a survey of 400 commercial websites, when compared with figures from a 2000 FTC study, more sites have more prominent and explanatory privacy policies, less carry third-party cookies, less collect personal info, and more use opt-in collection. The study was performed by the Progress & Freedom Foundation, and the full report can be found here." Note that the Progress & Freedom Foundation is an industry-sponsored group which generally favors a non-regulated online marketplace.
Marketing information just isn't as valuable when everyone and their dog.com already has it.
NO CARRIER
Those are still pretty pathetic statistics... every time my email address is demanded (although it will never be used, whats the point in asking for it then??) I get rather irate... and those were discounted in this figure...
And eventually gets expensive.
Most sites already have the info, plus most people use a fake email address anyhow, so most email marketing is useless. In addition, I know most people I know don't even use their real information, and fake info is useless.
It appears marketers are finding that there's little value in stockpiling the personal info of web users
I am sure they are getting sick and tired of seeing that 25% of all internet users are named John Smith, and have the email of spam@spam.com.
-- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
Monitors what things you watch/listen to in their newest version of Windows Media Player. These stats might be true for smaller sites, but giants such as MS are still collecting information.
There are so many ways to track your typical Web user nowadays that not collecting Email or using 3rd party cookies is like saying I don't use my knife to kill anymore just atomic weapons.
There are so many UIN in all sorts of software (windows media player, quicktime, realplayer etc.. etc..) they don't even need that much specific info anymore.
"there is a marmot in the bucket ? I'll go fix that." (don't ask)
The company I work for uses opt-in newsletters (thank god) with a good removal system.
The result: less time and money spent on irritated customers who were spammed with information they didn't want.
When it comes to real, corporate business environments (note the qualification.. i'm not talking about fly-by-nights) the cost of opt-out mailing systems is too high. Someone has to go through all the irate emails sent to customer service to see if any have a valid message in them. That costs them money in terms of manhours, bandwidth, and storage (granted, the storage is cheap, but in today's economy, every penny is counted twice).
As someone who's actually opted in to a few mailing lists from companies I like (glenmorangie whisky for one) to get relevent information, I can tell you right now that I'm going to read what they send me, and that's what counts. Businesses don't want stats on how many emails you sent out. They want to know how many people actually read what they have to say. It's the eyeballs that really count.
Anything coming from a business I didn't specifically sign up for gets either a) deleted or b) forwarded to abuse@ for handling. Smart businesses are realizing that consumers are becoming more web-savvy, and opt-out is just not a good marketing practice.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
I think most companies have modified their policies because they prefer not to have the government involved. It's like the threat of the Hollings Bill: solve the problem, or we'll solve it for you.
[reporter] do you have a privacy policy?g hest*cough*bidder*.
[company A] why of course. It is the policy of this company that all personal and private information is jealously guarded with utmost secrecy from the time of collection *cough*until*cough*we*cough*cough*sellit*cough*hi
[company B] we collect no personal information on our website. we've found its much easier to buy mailing lists and any personal info we need off russian hackers whenever we need new credit cards^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h marketing prospects. besides, its quite simple to buy information from Company A Media Promotions, Inc.
The only problem I see with personal info collection online is that you may not get a choice.
For instance:
I just got one of those nifty George Foreman grills and with it came a little card that asks me stuff like why I got it, who I am, etc. I may fill this out or I may not fill this out. While if I sign up for some website, they may require that I fill all these things before I can register.
Personally I haven't really experience a lot of these probing questions from websites, most that I see don't require personal information other than name, address, birthday, credit card, etc., but this would be required if I were to subscribe to a magazine through the mail.
sig
I love some on the terms and conditions you find on the Megacorps websites.
This from the Disney site:
If, at our request, you send certain specific submissions (e.g., postings to chat, boards, or contests)[...] (collectively, the "Submissions"), the Submissions shall be deemed, and shall remain, our property. [...] Without limitation of the foregoing, we shall exclusively own all now-known or hereafter existing rights to the Submissions of every kind and nature throughout the universe and shall be entitled to unrestricted use of the Submissions for any purpose whatsoever, commercial or otherwise, without compensation to the provider of the Submissions.
This is a gem: we shall exclusively own all now-known or hereafter existing rights to the Submissions...
And I love that throughout the universe bit.
My company has a hard enough time collecting accurate information from people who buy things from us. I'm amazed when I see someone ordering from our store enter an obviously fake phone number (111-1111) and email (nomail@4u.com) address. Strangely, these are the same people who complain that we don't contact them when something is wrong with their order.
This was one of the holes In the '1984' book. Who the heck is sitting around watching what all these people are doing?
love is just extroverted narcissism
If this is the case, why is the amount of spam mail I am receiving going through the roof? I have to believe that mail lists are being sold through loopholes. What about the folks who have their own mail servers so they can have address like expedia@mydomain, amazon@mydomain, etc... What do you guys see?
-Nuke the moon
Ok, so an industry-sponsored group reports that the industry is doing well in regards to privacy. Well, and to think I was SO WORRIED before...but it's ok now. Whew!
File this under "F" for fertilizer.
Also in the file:
-Microsoft commissions benchmark study which concludes Windows is faster than Linux!
-Microsoft Claims Open Source Doesn't Work / Is Dangerous / Is Anti-business / Causes Tooth Decay
-Osama Bin Laden's Mom Says "Deep down, he's a really great guy."
most of the sites they probably surveyed are the honest type. Places like Amazon, NY Times, even slashdot who need trust in their customers to keep them coming back. It's expected that these types of organizations will provide good/honest practices or else some people wont do business with them. Ever see a dishonest spamming organization that refuses to remove you from a mailing list survive?
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Since few people actualy put valid info when subscribing to free web stuff, I think we are going to start seeing banner ads targeting 60 year old woman with 12 kids that make $900,000 a year. So screw privacy, be truthful on online forms.
Hacker Media
"What this study is really measuring is the collapse of the Internet bubble," said Smith. "Clearly the numbers are going to be down since many third-party companies are now out of business. There are fewer companies collecting the data ... since they never learned how to turn that data into money."
Basicly... 'we don't care about what you people think, but if we can't make money off it, and it's something you want, we'll give it a try to shut you up till we can find a better way to make money'
*sigh*
For example, a couple months ago I started getting emails from M$ - a monthly MS Office newsletter. To my default account that I've had for 10 years without spam! Not to one of the disposable spam aliases..How? I never signed up for it! I don't use/like Office! And I've never never published that address! So I tried to "unsubscribe". The link (cause I'll be dammed if I'm sending them an email to verify my address from!) told me "You do not have a passport account..." Duhhhh!
So another one arrives today. Here is the link, sent to me from "0_28145_1E184A2F-7C3F-D111-9D3F-0000F84121EB_CA@N ewsletters.Microsoft.com". It said "You can manage all your Microsoft.com communication preferences from this site."
Aren't these unsubscribe things supposed to work? Yea, Yea, I'm not stupid enough to click on them from spammers, but from Microsoft? With all the scrutiny they are under right now?
p.s. - after I previewed this story - the link automagically changed from microsoft.com/misc/unsubscribe.htm to microsoft.com/info/unsubscribe.htm!! Interesting!
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
Are we supposed to believe that this couldn't possibly be caused by the bottom dropping out of the ad banner market?
Also "more prominent and explanatory privacy policies" does not make "more privacy". For one thing nobody reads them, for another they can be changed at any time (just like any other policy). Oh yeah, and there's nobody actually ENFORCING these things either. Privacy policies aren't worth the bits they're taking up.
Using opt-in, you won't collect millions of e-mail adresses, but it is easy to collect a few thousand in a short period. A few thousand of interested people.
Here some stats out of my experience:
- we sent no more than 2 e-mails a month
- 2,6% of the subscribers use unworking e-mail adresses - we mark them as invalid
- 8,3% of the subscribers have unsubscribed
- after sending news about some promotion to our subscribers, orders triple for about 2 days
- if the promotion lasts for a week, most will order on the last day
My advice: use opt-in if you want to make real money.ms
They have the info but dont know what to do with it. Im sure eventually a smart company will come as the sheepherder and point them in the right direction.
Telemarketers, TV / Radio advertisers took some time to learn too but eventually got it down to a science. Im sure these online advertisers will too, its only a matter of time.
With a 30% market share now IE 6.0 is another driving force behind this trend. At the high privacy level IE 6.0 will not accept cookies from any site without a compact P3P privacy policy. Locking out such a potentially large segment of users will make you hurry things up. I know a lot of our ECommerce clients are suddenly moving very quickly in this area because of IE 6.0.
Twelve kids, each making $900,00 a year? Let's see... that's $10.8 million?!?! Hell, what company wouldn't want to target that 60-year-old woman with its banner ads?
Did anyone read so much as the executive summary of the report? The fraction of sites that collect personal info *other than e-mail* is down all the way from 96% to 84%. So the overwhelming majority of sites are still hoarding personal data. This is definitely nothing to cheer about.
Privacy policies are not there to guarantee your privacy, they are used to tell you how little you have. The tone is invariably one of agression: "This is what we will do with your information, like it or lump it. P.S. We will change this if we want."
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
Perhaps it's due to the torrent of SPAM mail we've already received over the past five years all internet users now have a larger penis, bigger breasts, five degrees, and are independently wealthy, oh and a gaggle of uninhibited teens who take it off 'just for me.'
Kind thoughts do not change the world
They just responded to the survey in the manner they know people wanted them to, regardless of what they really do.
Do you really tell survey takers real information about yourself?
"Mr. Real Audio CEO, do you collect personal information about your patrons?"
"Well of course not. Despite some information out there, we do not collect information of any kind, and if we did, it wouldn't be personal information, and if we did that it wouldn't be sold to anyone, so ignore those stray packets you see being sent to our website over your firewall..."
It's great they actually learned something considering they majored in marketing to avoid having to study in the first place.
I need to post this anonymously because the company I work for manages marketing databases for its clients.
Many companies share their customer data. They will provide info to the level of "this person bought this class of product for this much money". They even share this data with their competitors! Why? Because many of these companies (especially the ones engaged in direct marketing) make as much money (or more) selling this data of "live ones" as they do in selling their products.
There are marketing companies that overlay transaction data, demographics data and credit information in large databases. You can't trust anyone. Some of the most respected companies share data in the manner. I was shocked to learn who some of our clients were.
There's a damned good reason people don't want to give out this information. Even when it is legitimately needed, this information is being abused and customer privacy is being subverted for the almighty buck. Companies are amoral. Your customers know this. You may have good management today. But who knows what tomorrows management team will think?
Now, anyone who takes the time to slightly alter their contact information can track who is selling their marketing info. Here's how. With B2B being the "next great thing" in the marketing world, add a trackable company name when you buy stuff, such as "ThinkGeek Farms" (just to pick on TG, since their banner is on the page), in the "ship to" address. It'll be ignored by the mail carrier. And companies are paying a premium for marketing information of potential business clients (usually anything with a business name.)
If your ISP used Sendmail, use Sendmail's handy "+" notation for address aliasing. Tell them your address is "user+thinkgeek@example.com". The mail will get delivered to "user@example.com". (Qmail uses a "-" instead of a "+" for similar, but more powerful, email aliasing.)
I have the same problem. A few years ago, my [ex-]employer forced me to get an MSN IM account. Just recently, I've begun receiving unsolicited email from Microsoft at that address. What's particulary frustrating is that there is no way to unsubscribe from Passport!
Propaganda sources. Not to be trusted, no matter what they say. Garbage.
I expect this is part of some lobbying effort. "Look, we don't stink like shit! Those aren't flies! We're good people. We value your privacy!"
Direct marketing organizations, after years of probing and cross correlating data on consumers buying habits, etc. have come to the conclusion that predicting consumer behavior is like predicting which clump of grass a sheep will go after next.
"Most of the time we're pretty close to being right, but some of the time the consumer just raises his head says Baaaaa!"
It's just not providing the expected ROI.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Name: Freddy Fukerfaster
Address: l1234 Rodeo Drive
City: Beverly Hills
State: CA
Zip: 90210
Sex: Female
Age: 142
Phone: (111)222-3333
I know I'm not the only person that does this. When I had to sign up on Sun's site to d/l the JDK I actually entered "Scott McNealy" with Sun's Headquaters address and Phone #. The amount of work involved in weeding all the garbage in the DB makes it worthless.
Unless someone needs my address for billing or shipping they are not going to get it.
I had over 25 spyware cookies and applications loaded onto my computer. I can only imagine what can be one some peoples computers who use software like kazaa and morphus and install all the third party crap.
Are totally worthless. How many of them have a small clause at the bottom that says "this statement is not a guarantee, we reserve the right to change our minds and alter it at any time without telling you." How many simply say, in fancy legal language, "yeah we're still gonna sell everybody your email address, but it's private. like, we won't tell people on the street without them paying us first."
The only real privacy on the internet is the privacy we give ourselves through subterfuge, care, and lying outright.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Especially following that link to try to sign up passport to remove yourself from passport, and it says "Upgrade your browser to something current". I have the most current version of Konquerer ;-).
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
You could try forging a bounce message from: Mailer-Daemon@yourdomain.
You can usually just change your email address in your mail client though there are a few ISP's don't allow outgoing email with a from line that isn't the users assigned mailbox.
Alternativly just deliver it straight to port 25, as per example;
RFC2821me@vax:~ > host -t MX Newsletters.Microsoft.com
Newsletters.Microsoft.com mail is handled (pri=10) by Newsletters.Microsoft.com
me@vax:~ > telnet Newsletters.Microsoft.com 25
Connected to Newsletters.Microsoft.com.
220 newsletters.microsoft.com Microsoft ESMTP MAIL Service, Version: 5.0.2195.4905
HELO mydomain.com
250 newsletters.microsoft.com Hello [62.64.219.7]
MAIL FROM: Mailer-Daemon@mydomain.com
250 2.1.0 Mailer-Daemon@mydomain.com....Sender OK
RCPT TO: 0_28145_1E184A2F-7C3F-D111-9D3F-0000F84121EB_CA@N
250 2.1.5 0_28145_1E184A2F-7C3F-D111-9D3F-0000F84121EB_CA@N
data
354 Start mail input; end with .
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software (Exim).
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
username@mydomain.com
SMTP error from remote mailer after RCPT TO::
host mydomain [192.100.1.81]: 550 Unknown local user 'username'
.
note the empty line to seperate the subject from the body.
I've never understood why people believe they can distinguish between "3rd party" cookies (those offered by an ad service) and non-3rd party cookies.
You can't. Get over it.
You identify "3rd party" cookies as those originating from a domain other than that of the main site. However, just because they come from the same site you have in your browser location bar does NOT mean they don't come from a third-party ad agency.
DNS names DO NOT HAVE TO POINT TO SERVERS OWNED BY THE PARENT DOMAIN OWNERS. For example, when you accept that cookie on Netscape's job site because it came "from Netscape", you're actually accepting a cookie from Monster.com. Careers.netscape.com is a DNS entry in the Netscape.com domain, but it has an address of a Monster.com server.
So if we replace monster in that example with DoubleClick, then we have an easy demonstration of how DoubleClick can get around all of the "3rd party cookie blockers".
And that's not a bad thing. It's not a problem of technology or sneakiness - if you disagree then you just have a problem with your ignorant expectations.
Don't use that crap. I haven't used Real in about 2.5 years. I don't miss it.
The WIPO Troll.
Just check out PPF's funders...these people cannot be for privacy regulation.
- Packard Company
Contributors
to The Progress & Freedom Foundation include --
Acxiom
Alston & Bird
Amazon.com
AOL Time Warner
Bacardi-Martini, Inc.
BellSouth
BT Ignite
Cellular Telecommunications &
Internet Association
Comcast Corporation
Compaq Computer Corporation
Conseco, Inc.
Consumer Data Industry Association
Consumer Electronics Association
Corning Incorporated
Direct Marketing Association
Distilled Spirits Council of the United States
Eagle River
EchoStar Communications Corporation
Edison Electric Institute
EDS
Electronic Industries Alliance
Experian
FirstEnergy
Gateway
Hewlett
IBM
IMC, Inc.
Information Services
Executive Council
Intel
Intuit
Liberate Technologies
Lucent Technologies
Motorola
National Cable &
Telecommunications Association
Oracle Corporation
Proctor & Gamble
Progress Energy
SBC Communications
Scientific Atlanta
The SABRE Group
Securify, Inc.
Siebel Systems
Southern Company
Sun Microsystems
Telecommunications Industry Association
TransUnion
United States Telecom Association
United Distillers & Vintners North America
VeriSign, Inc.
Verizon Communications
Vivendi Universal
They must have come across this or the equivalent.
Keep the aspidistra flying!