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Lycoris - Linux for the Masses?
Dejected @Work writes "MSNBC.com, a definitely sketchy source of Linux information, just came out with an article "Linux for the Masses" about the ease of installing Lycoris(formerly Redmond Linux) on the desktop. The author even concluded you can 'fall in love with an ever-easier-to-use operating system.' It sounds like great news but am I missing something?" Several favorable reviews of this distro recently. It looks like all you have to do to get the reviewers on your side is to let them play solitaire during the install. :) Update: 04/13 14:53 GMT by T : Eric Krout also suggests the two-part review (part one and part two) over on monolinux.
I like the idea of linux for the masses, and I am all for the teaching of others to use linux- but that being said; there are so many people that don't even understand Windows 98 (let alone 2000) that I would be afraid of them using linux because they would be constantly coming to me. The people that can't find their 'run' command in windows- you know who I mean.
There are still some complexities in linux that most people will have a hard time with, such as installation and configuration of programs. Its getting better. RPM really helps out alot of people (I like it alot), but not everything uses RPM. I am having a terrible time getting Quake working on a Redhat 7.2 distro here right now (as well as problems with DVD decoding and Divx).
Linux for the masses is great, but lets not let the masses over-simplify it or take it to the lowest commom demononator. And let's not bloat it either (i know redhat is a hog, but it works pretty well)
Tibbon
...there will be 100 [at least] people who write in "Linux doesn't belong on the desktop"
To those people I say: BLAH!
Look at Mandrake, hell look at Red Hat. Both distro's are so easy to install we are only waiting on post-install improvements.
RPM or DEB? They need to get a tad easier, then maybe we can be closer.
Get your Unix fortune now!
The Lycoris home page and screen shot gallery.
I can just see it now: Clueless newbies installing "Lycoris" over and over again just to play more solitaire. And all the while they'll be saying, "I thought this Linux thing was supposed to be more efficient than Windows."
Think I'm kidding? Never underestimate the resourcefulness of the average idiot.
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
Just as well they changed the name - otherwise people would start thinking M$ had started bringing out Linux distros. :-D
Video Game cheats, hints a
honestly, it looks more like it rhymes with "Clitoris"...perhaps *that's* why it gets such favorable reviews
Based on what I see in the review, it does indeed look like they've done a good job producing the "anti-geek" Linux distro. I never thought there was any reason not to use Linux as a desktop OS, but I have always throught that the best qualities of Linux (no central control and ownership) were also the reasons it would not succeed on the desktop: No marketing, no power to challenge the Microsoft OEM stranglehold.
The most interesting aspect to me was that they sell cheapish desktops and laptops preinstalled with their distro. There are other Linux preinstallers, but most of them seem to aim at the geek mainstream or the server business.
There is no reason Linux can't be a major desktop player technically or practically, but the marketing muscle has always been absent. Lycoris may be a great product, but I don't see where it changes anything on that marketing power front.
Still, I may just buy their cheap desktop for my technophobe mother-in-law who doesn't know Windows or Linux. I will bet she will have no problems using the machine and will never ever wish she had Windows, or even really know that she isn't using Windows.
A larger user base could end up reflecting badly on linux in that hoards of less-competent users could set up servers with such wild security idiocies as having user names and passwords the same - then blaming the o/s when they get rooted.
LCARS - So easy to use, no wonder it's Number One
Since Corel left there has been a void, that even Mandrake doesn't fill. Lycoris Desktop may just fill that void. Lycoris has a very easy install, easier than Mandrake. The best part is the well thought out desktop. And like Corel, instead of the 50 text editors you usually get,you a slimed down selection. There is only one mp3 player, one browser etc. IMHO they have eliminated the confusion most users suffer when they first use linux. They have set up an environment where you just sit down and get your work done. You want to type a letter, simple use Kword. There is none of this "do I use kword,abiword,openoffice,etc" confusion.
While many linux experts will see this as a negative, you have to recognize that KISS is what no other linux distro has mastered since Corel left. I for one welcome this change. Pick the "best" desktop apps, and package them on a easy to use desktop. In this case I think the concept of less choice has worked.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
What are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Lycoris is? It is XFree86 + KDE + some well-chosen open source apps. What "kernel mods" and "hooks" and "patches" and "API"s are you talking about, specifically? If you're referring to the kernel pre-emption patches, those have already been merged into the 2.5.x tree, and are widely seen as a good thing for Linux.
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
The really terrible thing is the kernel mods that are necessary to necessary to put the hooks in for their point-n-drool API. I know Linus has the guts to tell them no, but unfortunately all the major distros have started including those patches.
That's what the distrbutions are there for. Linus produces what he thinks should be produced, and as the baseline kernel distribution it's inherently going to be somewhat conservative. Distributions then modify this to suit what their customers want, regardless of whether it's something that Linus would want in the kernel or not (see supermount, for instance - users want the convenience of being able to use removable media without messing about mounting and unmounting it. It's an ugly patch and Linus is never going to include it in his kernel. Distributions add the patch. Everyone's happy)
I guess that's the downside of Open Source. You can't make everyone learn the CLI like they should.
There should be no requirement to use the CLI. Many users just want to be able to turn on the computer, send an email and turn it off again. In what way does forcing them to use a CLI improve their life?
worth reading just to see an MSNBC reporter type those words!
I installed Lycoris on an extra machine I had without a problem... until it turned out it didn't have drivers for my sound card. (Not a rare one either- ECS K7S5A motherboard onboard sound) Now what? Needs a kernel recompile which I don't have time to learn how to do and which most users wouldn't be able to learn even if they tried. If this were windows, however, I'd be able to just download the driver and point-and-click install it. As far as I know, Linux doesn't have anything like that. Until it does, it will be out of reach of the massess.
You can't make everyone learn the CLI like they should. *sigh*
This sentiment is the exact reason why Linux isn't more widely used as a desktop operating system. Linux at present is a geek toy and a server OS. It will never be more until/unless Linux developers start re-evaluating the validity of the quoted statement above.
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
Hows their stock doing? Anyone else here thinking about making an investment?
I think its nice to see a successful desktop linux, hopefully Lindows will also be successful, add Mandrake and you have 3 competiting desktop OS's which means we will get good products.
What Lycoris has to consider however is how they will make money, Lindows i think is onto something with the warehouse idea, Mandrake is looking for community support which is really unstsble and not something i'd be quick to invest in.
Lindows looks like the most profitble, Lycoris however has OEM deals which impress me alot.
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Does the reviewer know who he works for?
First he gives an accurate description of his experience installing Linux and names several positive and truthful attributes. Then he says
"...watch the BBC on RealPlayer"
He's asking for it.
.sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
that's a good intro, I almost fell off my chair...
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
The really tiring thing is that nobody has done it yet. The only thing that makes me sadder is the fact that a sizeable portion of the Linux community doesn't want it to happen. Witness the "everyone should use the command line" crowd. The ones who refer to sensible GUIs with disdain. You know the type. It is they who are preventing Linux from making serious inroads into the desktop market.
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
Why not chess? Give them a game linux users actually play, solitaire is what people who cant use the internet properly play.
Even aol and yahoo offer chess, besides if you let them set up the modem first they can connect to a server and play chess with other people, chess can easily consume 30-40 minutes and would be perfect for long 7 dvd installs. hell add IM program like gaim or kopete in there and they may not even remember to exit the install
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I think some people really need to come down to earth about linux when it comes to the home market. The power of linux is not the GUI or any arguably "easy to use" features its the fact that its a great and free server. Many home and business users are still fighting their way throught the desktop model of PC use. As easy as Windows is, its still "high tech geek stuff" to, in my experience, 90+% of its users.
The reviwerer already had WindowsXP installed and working, so why does he need this? For the pure geez-whiz factor of I'm running this linux stuff? Probably. Even as an intro to linux the easy to use distros are really just training wheels that you won't take off until you meet, greet, and spend a lot of time learning the command line, services/daemons, etc.
Now for the pro's. A company that doesn't want to drop money on MS or Apple desktops that doesn't need certain commercial software that isn't and probably will never be available for Linux might just fall in love with this. Handing this to a teenager, adult, or grandma and telling them that they can't run their favorite apps anymore or even use AOL is simply self-defeating and neing starry-eyed about open source.
My viewpoint on the issue.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
Desktops like KDE and to (and to a lesser extent, GNOME) copy Windows so shamelessly that they bring expectations, especially from novice users. The wild cut and paste in UNIX is enough to frustrate most novice users. The ripped off UI minus the "normal" (read: Windowsesque) behavior is enough to make most novices believe that Linux is nothing better than a second-rate windows. I've seen this first hand: my neighbor installs RedHat/KDE and it looks like Windows, and what does he do when the first misbehaving X app takes over half his screen (without revealing the "close" widget)? He realizes that he's in over his head, and goes back to Windows.
It's a terrible idea to out-Windows windows. If they don't carve out their own UI, Linux will always be playing catch-up on the desktop.
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
How will lycoris compete with click n run?
How will mandrake compete with OEM contracts?
How will lindows compete with the linux community?
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...towards a demystified Linux for the masses. If memory serves me right, isn't Corel based on Debian? According to the article, Lycoris is based on Corel Linux. Which suggests apt-get is more than a possibility here.
If this gets people out of their Windozers and into Linux, at least superficially, this is A Good Thing (tm) and should be encouraged. If it is a rip on XP and XP is what the newbie is used to, then cool, they'll get acclimated quicker.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
You know the best way of supporting these people is to go to their store and buy something. Get a developer version if you can spare the extra $10. Show them with your money that you support what they're doing. I just did.
They're definitely worth supporting, because they truly are trying to bring Linux to the masses, and making it easier for people to make the switch from Windows.
Disclaimer: I'm pro-choice in terms of OS -- but I do use Windows XP as my primary OS, I think its great, and that Microsoft has done an outstanding job on it. Anyone who disagrees should at least give it a spin before complaining about it.
I did a bit of searching, apparently it's named after some kind of plant, hence the "Flower Power" thing on their site. http://dmoz.org/Science/Biology/Flora_and_Fauna/Pl antae/Magnoliophyta/Liliopsida/Amaryllidaceae/Lyco ris/
My Blog: http://nic.dreamhost.com/
Typical linux elitism
"You have to learn the commandline and thousands of commands"
Desktop User "I just want to get the web, play some games and burn some CDS"
"But the commandline gives you power to write scripts and manipulate programs in a more concise way!"
Desktop User "But I'm not a programmer, I just want to get on the web and have fun!!!!"
"Its more fun to play with commands and look like an elite linux haxor!!"
Desktop User "I just want a Desktop thats easy to use, linux sucks I'm going to try OSX"
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Lindows won't win. The one and only 'cool' and terribly useful thing about Linux is not stability or whatnot, but it being free. Lindows isn't free, it's $99. Now on the other hand, when people buy a computer, they think they get Windows "free." It's actually something like $15-$50, but that's still cheaper than Lindows. Who in their right mind (talking consumer, not geek here) would throw out a perfectly good copy and replace it with a pay Linux? No one. Linux will always appeal exclusively to geeks, no matter if anyone on /. hopes to think otherwise. Geeks use slack or RedHat or Debian or Mandrake or enter-your-fav-distro-here. They can install it and get it for free. Your point is moot.
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But Linux elites want to make things complicated so they feel special
./configure && make && make install
./program or commandname
If linux were easy to use, they wouldnt be linux haxor elites anymore would they?
So they force commandline down peoples throats
Look commandline does have its uses, like for programming, debugging code, compiling programs, even configurations.
But for everything else, a GUI is always better, why use commandline for Desktop stuff? I can see if you are running a server and need statistics which update consistantly, or you need a way to display information without slowing the machine down
But you dont need commandline to burn MP3s, chat, play quake, i mean come on
people even port QT to the commandline, and quake, and chat!! Seriously
The GUI is better at these things, the GUI is better for everyday use
I know the commands but i only use the commandline when I need to install something, its actually easier to install via the commandline than via graphical installer
cd programdir &&
installed
Then
perhaps a standard for for installing programs are needed but most of the time its easier than windows, until you have dependency problems
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If it works well enough to be a Windows replacement, I would be more than willing to get it. However, I'll hold off until a few more reviews of it come out. It certainly beats having to pay Microsoft anywhere from $100-300 just for the operating system.
This
Upside to Linux for masses: more apps, more drivers, more everything else. Your TV card will be more likely to work in VDR 2.0. Wider is better. More is more good.
Downside: you're not an uber-geek anymore, you're just another guy running linux. That Linux sticker on your honda went from unique to trendy.
So it's a trade-off, but the end result is that it's still a free, open-source operating system, written by and for the people. More people coding for it can only be a good thing.
That's my opinion.
Synergy is your friend
Lindows has alot of money, Michael Robertson is a billionare, and he has support from others, Lindows isnt going anywhere,
Its $99? $99 will be for access to warehouse and what not, remember Lindows is GPL which means they MUST release the code, just let your friend burn you a CD, You wont be able to log into the warehouse without your friends password but you'll have Lindows.
Who in their right mind (talking consumer, not geek here) would throw out a perfectly good copy and replace it with a pay Linux? No one. Linux will always appeal exclusively to geeks, no matter if anyone on
Word of mouth, the fact that while Lindows isnt free, by using it you get access to thousands of free programs which costs money to use under Windows,
Also add the fact that your windows programs will work in Lindows.
Lindows is a good OS with a good plan and if they market it correctly they can be as successful as redhat, right now it depends on how they market it.
Lindows is set to make their money on services like warehouse and click n run, I dont think they can stop people from distributing Lindows for cheaper or getting ISOs from friends.
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http://www.lindows.com Lindows.com
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Can this be an attempt to prove that linux is effective competition to windows to placate the judge ? seems weird that it's on an MS affiliated site.
Linux is ready for the desktop, perhaps if you Gnome people stopped tryinng to copy Windows every move you'd have a Desktop GUI.
OEONE is easy to use, its not windows based, no one ever complained about it being hard.
The reason Linux is hard is because its trying to be Linux and Windows at the same time, when you let Linux be Linux and build the GUI around Linux's strengths, Linux becomes easy to use.
The only problem is the installer situation, once thats fixed I expect Linux to begin to dominate the Desktop.
Using a Flash based GUI could work fine for most people considering the CPU speed they have now.
Also directFB and other projects have ways of making the GUI better.
Lastly, you could use Mozilla and render the GUI using XUL and have something thats nicer than current Linux GUI.
Linux's problem is X, its that simple. X render is not powerful enough, or easier enough to use, if it takes years to be easy enough to use thats too late.
I dont see IBM, or Anyone funding improvements to Xrender, I dont see Gnome developers working on improving Xfree, I dont see Gnome developers even working on making things innovative, they are busy copying windows.
Theres nothing wrong with copying windows, but you can never copy windows better than Microsoft.
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They pay money for photoshop or steal it
Lindows will introduce millions of people to open source like they did with mp3s, and i think they can make a business if like with mp3s open source takes off and becomes mainstream, mp3.com made money off free mp3s!
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
It is a simple fact that certain interfaces are more efficient a certain tasks compared to other interfaces applied to the same task. In my opinion, it is a good idea for a computer user to be able to use graphical and command-line interfaces. There are many instances where a command-line interface is more efficient/productive to use compared to a GUI. User-friendly = GUI is a logical fallacy.
What Lycoris does that none of the other Linux distros really do is limit your options (maybe some do but why nitpick). Contrary to the belief of Linux users in basements around the globe, this is not a bad thing. Lycoris does right where others have done wrong. Instead of giving the option of a billion different file managers and command line ftp clients they simplified the software package down to something manageable. One serious hurdle in a Linux installation is knowing what programs you want and which you don't want.
RedHat, SuSE, and Debian cater to the everything comes in a single box paradigm. This is great for the people who've used Linux before and have a feel for certain apps and thus choose to install them. Others have a feel for different apps and thus install those, this continues until there's a dozen dozen various installations of the same distribution. For people new to Linux this is wholly confusing, I've been using Linux for years and I still get confused when I've got six CDs full of stuff. I think Lycoris fits into a very nice niche of Linux users, ones who want to just turn something on and get work done. Like the tag line it seems like it could be very nice for general consumers as they'd be hard pressed to tell you what operating system was on their computer anyhow.
Hopefully the companies building beige box PCs bundling Linux will take note of Lycoris and give it a bit of a bigger install base and popularize it. RedHat is a good company but it seems like they're definitely going in a more corporate user direction which is of course fine, more power to them.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
..but it had to be said.
Why does "easy to use" seem to translate, almost precisely "looks exactly like windows"?
OS X, while not flawless, is living proof that the evolution of computer interaction is not over, can people PLEASE stop acting like the M$ desktop is the only way to make an interface?
... Principal Skinner?!?!
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and hell, these "masses" distributions don't even claim to provide anything "better" they provide "cheaper" and "no MS fist around your balls"er
sic transit gloria mundi
Based on the web site I've gotta say: I love it, but I'll never run it.
:)
:)
Seems they've done a great job replicating the Windows XP look-and-feel in Linux which should reduce the learning curve for new users. I was a "techie" in the Microsoft world and heaven knows Linux was a complete change for me. I couldn't figure out how to move a directory for weeks after switching!
However, for those who have donw some climbing on the learning curve it's probably a bad idea to run this distro. After all, why make Linux identical to Windows? I applaud their effort but for the geeks among us it's probably a step backwards. Good news is, I doubt we're their primary target market.
I bought my wife an IBM NetVista and Redmond Linux was the ONLY distro that detected the video card w/ the Flat screen monitor. (Mandrake 8.1 only had it in 800x600 with tweaking)
It's a VERY easy distro to use. It's NOT for power users. You are very limited in what you can do. They make it very hard to fuck up your system. It has a customized version of KDE (which is VERY good in my opinion). It's near impossible to add Gnome to the desktop. It uses Caldera RPM's so you can just grab them off of Caldera's site.The install was so easy, she did it herself. (She is not tech savvy). She did it while I was in the shower. I had to redo it so I could see for myself. I think it's an excellent distro for mom & dad. However, power Linux users will get frustrated by it's lack of choices. There are no servers installed (except sshd). Not even an ftp server, or Apache. (which is by design...Mom isn't supposed to be running a webserver on the machine she does her taxes on, ya know?) All in All, I give it 9 out of 10 for newbies, 4 out of 10 for veterans.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Monolinux is carrying a review of lycoris in 2 parts written by a corporate IT manager and looking at lycoris from a possible business desktop use, its a good read and less hype filled and believable than MSNBC's - i reccomend it.
PS it was posted yesterday as well - before MSNBC
http://www.monolinux.com/modules/news/
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
Next time search for a good review that's thorough rather than linking to some half-baked MSNBC article.
n ame=News&file=article&sid=670&mode=thread&order=0& thold=0 n ame=News&file=article&sid=667&mode=thread&order=0& thold=0 4 -12-014-26-RV-DT 4 -12-005-26-NW-DT l e=article&sid=1856 l e=article&sid=1848 / 12/1740252 / 11/1459213
The best review out there isn't exactly a top-secret either, as is apparent below.
1] http://www.tuxreports.com/modules.php?op=modload&
2] http://www.tuxreports.com/modules.php?op=modload&
3] http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-0
4] http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-0
5] http://pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?name=News&fi
6] http://pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?name=News&fi
7] http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04
8] http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04
9] http://www.distrowatch.com/index.php
Thanks.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
But, is it REALLY better than Mandrake (or RedHat) for the end user in the long run?
Reguardless of the answer (I say No, Mandrake ROCKS, RedHat is Slick, and are desktop OS's now) you may say yes. Even still...
This is a company Mandrake (or Red Hat) should get a VC to finance the buyout of now for 2 reasons:
They can be sued when they are a monopoly. Right now there seems to be some competition in Linux. And I think they are still fighting that Windows system, too...
You can't make everyone learn the CLI like they should. *sigh*
:)
This sentiment is the exact reason why Linux isn't more widely used as a desktop operating system. Linux at present is a geek toy and a server OS. It will never be more until/unless Linux developers start re-evaluating the validity of the quoted statement above.
Read the article. Some Linux distro developer did
Meanwhile, the argument that you should know what all the levers in your car do, and know what all the buttons on your microwave do, and know what all the tools in your toolbox do, still sounds awfully reasonable to me. People should learn the CLI on Linux, Windows, or Mac OS X, exactly because it's there!
That's not to say that people have to learn to love the CLI, or use it all the time. But it may just turn out to be the best tool for some tasks. If nothing else, most people really should know enough to move around their filesystem in a CLI, in case they have to restore files by hand someday (say, after booting from a bootdisk when suffering from a corrupted registry or boot manager or the like).
There seem to be a lot of comments about how this distracts from Linux's main vision on the distribution scene where you have everything -- literally -- but rather I see this as something very good and representing a wakeup from a dream world.
Basically, people don't want to have everything and anything. While it's true that a diverse selection of software packages, utilities, etc. has more of a chance to fit exactly what you need, people don't need exact solutions when it comes to consumer markets. In fact, most people don't even need customized solutions at all.
This can explain why Linux does so good in the server and critical markets where 100% fitting solutions are required, and at the same time it explains why Linux isn't growing at exponentional rates into consumer markets like some though it would.
That's why there is only one dominant Office suite for Windows, and why consumers tend to side with Microsoft in terms of things having integrated components such as web browsers and media players. It's just easier. No one really cares what software they're using as long as it gets the job done.
People outside the IT field don't have time to sit down and go through a dozen or more programs for a single task -- like playing a video file. In today's instant gratification society, people demand point and click usability. There's no time to compile the latest SDL release and then find a media player, compile it, configure it, etc. Kernel compilations for the regular user are defiantly out of the question unless some amazing new ease of use feature is developed in the future.
This is why a lot of Linux distributions haven't done so well with the consumer. You can throw as many CD's and as many free (as in beer and speech) solutions, programs, libraries, and development environments you want at the consumer and watch as they turn blindly to the technically inferior, monopolistic offering that also happens to be proprietary and not free.
This situation is mainly the product of the Linux enthusiast's personality. Most geeks are by nature introverted and withdrawn from society to some extent (myself included) and rarely can see the big picture of what the general public might think about Linux when it's billed as a competitor for Windows. People don't care about how architecturally sound a solution is or the kind of characteristics programmers look for. That's why programmers make poor business people and business people make poor programmers. See the dot com chapter for more examples of this.
Software has and will for probably some time be a business of how fast can you get something done, how cheaply, does it work, and will people buy it. Besides that, you can do whatever you want but will be only be useable fodder for a selective few -- a minority who choose to spend hours laboring over configuration and setup for even the most mundane tasks. Anyone who has ever worked in user level support can attest to the fact users want things and they want them NOW.
This may come as a big fat epiphany to the Linux world who hope to mirror Bill Gates' vision with an open source solution, but it's how it is. You can't change society no matter how hard you try. So now it's about how we can work around society. Lycoris seems a logical evolution as other distributions have failed (getting saved by customer charity doesn't count here).
But instead of having a closed-source monopoly, we are at a risk of having the same but open source with whatever distributor ends up becoming successful.
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
I can't resist runnable .sigs.
I have a feeling that some day I'm going to accidently run someones sig as root, and it's probably going to end up sed'ing awk'ing and then rm -rf 'ing
He who defends everything, defends nothing. -- Fredrick The Great
So (the alleged) PhysicsGenius sez:
"...point-n-drool API." & "I guess that's the downside of Open Source. You can't make everyone learn the CLI like they should. *sigh*"
Proof, yet again, that we urgently need a NEW moderation label added to "flamebait", "troll", "offtopic", etc.
That label would be: "Linux Bigot"
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
Is a good thing. Unfortunately, we're still at least several years away from this - this is how people interact with computers now. I just hope "we" get there first.
You cannot make an error, its case sensetive, etc etc
Commandline is faster for commands you only run once in a great while likee installing or configuring something
but when you have to type the same commands over and over you will make typos and you'll be pissed when bash doesnt understand
Its much faster to click a button than type
licq -chat -msgusr 2302032 -msg hello how are you -spellcheck -sendmsg
Please, if you think thats easier than just clicking their icon, typingg the msg, and hitting enter, i guess you must have quick fingers and you never once make a typo.
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Well then, why dont you email this idea to mandrake, lindows and others
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Ok being the paranoid scitzo I am.
How soon before we learn that Lycoris is funded by M$?
I have learned everything I know practically from reading. I PREFER it that way. I remember the first time I used a REAL computer, was back in 82 or so. I was 12 at the time, and I went to the local University. They were running VMS/VAX. I sat down and was in awe. I asked the guy behind the counter for the manuals. He laughed and handed me a stack of papers. I took them home and came back a couple of days later..that's how I learned to destroy systems. Not to be malicious. I followed the instructions EXACTLY, yet it seemed the admins did not! Who would guess a 12 yr old twerp was poking thru a Universities files? Giving me the manual was the best thing they could have done. And, how else was one going to learn 8-bit Assembler on the Commodore? I bought this thick manual on Assembler and Machine code for the Commodore.That was the only way. You had no one to turn to. While all my friends were playing Castle Wolfenstein (the ORIGINAL) and Zork, I was hacking away in Assembler and making a BBS. By READING the fscking manual. I learn quicker with a book/manual than sitting in a class for 6 months.However, I learned BASIC so well, that was what caused me problems when the OOP world came in. I still dont' get OOP. I'm a procedural guy. (Fortran, Pascal, C, Assembler, Perl, etc). :)
I've been trying on and off for almost 4 years to get good in Java. I can't. Until I realized you can't just sit down and start typing. You have to make a plan. Screw that! That's no fun!
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
You gotta like this. An article in a mainstream e-rag gushing about how easy it is to install Linux.
And it's got everything an average user could want in terms of software, including browser, email, IM, photo editor, video and mp3 players, games, even an office suite -- something that MS hasn't even got around to incorporating into the OS! It even includes a KNapster file sharing client. Bet you don't get anything like that with XP. It will even delete your old copy of Windows for you. (How convenient.)
On top of that all, you can download it for free, or pay less than $50 for a CD and support. Or you can buy a machine with it pre-installed for less than $500.
This should perk up the interest of Joe Average computer user.
Ironically, this article is on a website co-owned by MS.
Seriously though, I have been noticing lately that there has been a general growing awareness of Linux among the "masses". Case in point: a friend of mine just got her first home computer last week. It has WindowsXP, but she isn't particularly pleased with it. She told me she would have liked to have gotten a Linux computer but she needed Windows in order to be compatible with software she used at work.
Trickster Coyote
Illusions are real. Reality is an illusion.
Ideology is for ideots.
That's their target, so easy to use does not mean easy to learn or easy to retrain, it means easy to switch out from under over the weekend and have as little fuss as possible from the users who don't give a crap about M$ being a monopoly and evil because they have a stupid shipping clerk job to do and JUST WANT NO HASSLE!!!
:-)
Infuriate left and right
Lycoris seems to be just what the doctor ordered: a chance to experience the power of Linux without having to turn into a system administrator just for the privilege. Let's face it folks: 98% of the computer-using population could care less what runs under the bonnet. They don't want to have to twiddle obscure radio-button options, nor choose amongst 50 different window managers and 200 file managers. They simply want to get work done. Whilst we geeks may bemoan the lack of options and curse Lycoris because we can't eke 2% greater speed out of it, most people simply DON'T CARE about the technical minutiae. They'd be glad to be relieved of Microsoft's increasingly more onerous licencing restrictions and higher prices. And as always, if you don't like the Lycoris distro, don't run it! Run SuSE, or Debian, or Mandrake, or ....
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
The weakness with Linux today isn't ease of install - hell, Redhat has been trivial to install for at least a couple of versions now, even on the weirdest hardware Joe "Dude, You're Gettin' a Dell" Sixpack is likely to have.
Installation is ALREADY pretty brain dead, even to the most clueless newbie. At most, they're looking at a 5 minute call to their vendor / friend / LUG / 7-year old neighbor.
The trouble comes when they want to run the stupid elf bowling program some cow orker sends to them. Or when they want to free up some drive space. Or when they want to install a game. Or install ANY new software via four to six clicks of a mouse button.
Put the creative energy in the right direction, and Linux WILL win. This isn't it. This is the road more travelled.
-l
This is NOT new. Lycoris's installer is RLIZARD, which means Redmond Linux Wizard. LIZARD was created by Caldera in 1997 I think. I got their distro at the Linux trade show in NYC. Blew AWAY anythng Redhat could have done. The installer is nothing new. It's a carbon copy of caldera. DOwn to the icons! Where Lycoris shines is the desktop! Screw their installer!
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
For the fact that instead of calling me up every day, and me having to drive 100 miles out there once a month and have to waste an hour of my time defragging or installing Bonzi Buddy for her, I can now just ssh in and do everything there. I even put icons on her desktop like "Click ME for MAIL!!!", "Click ME for Word!". :) She's actually spreading the word about how she has no problems. She has SOME, but I ssh in twice a week and detele all the NEW FILE.txt and NEW FOLDER 79 in her home directory :)
Now she thinks she's a guru
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
I wish people would read the Lycoris site and realizre the ftp.lycoris.com is SLOW and they prefer you use one of their mirrors. Linuxiso randomly selects a mirror EXCEPT ftp.lycoris.com
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Here's how /usr/src/linux
cd
make xconfig
This starts the GUI
check EVERY Checkbox. make everythign a module. Or read what the trusty help box says ("if you don't know what a FooPlaster X is, you cna leave this alone")
Then click save configuration..it tells you to type : make depend; make modules; make linux
then type make install
If you're using a modern distro, you can set up the new kernel using GUI tools
Reboot, choose your new kernel, and you're in heaven
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Do you have windows 2000? if so try this.
.me" and it works just fine.
Open up explorer. On the C: drive right click on the mouse. choose new and then folder. This will create a new folder and it will wait for you to type in a name for your new folder. The ".me" or a . followed by anything. It won't let you will it? Of course not.
Now open up a dos box and type "mkdir
This is just one example of how fucked up the windows GUI is. Yet people still use it. Whatever you do don't emulate MS.
The programmers at MS are unable to write an XML parser that does not require a 60 megabyte browser for goodness sake why would you follow their lead?
War is necrophilia.
Lycoris is for Mom, not for a savvy 25 year old PC user. A wireless NIC? Install Mandrake. Lycoris focuses on what most simple users need when they buy an HP from Best Buy.
Menu items such as Burn DVD, Burn Audio CDS,Burn Data CD (NO Audio), Play DVD.
There is no option for Set up NVIDIA GEFORCE card to play HalfLife.
No option for Wireless Cards either. Thats what the reg distros are for.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Actually Lycoris boots into a graphic screen. The Xterm button is very nicely hidden. No log messages, nothing. Throw in a cd, and it automatically loads the file manager or plays it if it's audio. Throw in a DVD and it plays it! WHoa nelly!
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Yeah, but shoddy software and experimental drivers STILL won't make linux crash. The only thing in the past 2 years that has made my Linux system hang was when I tried burning a cd, while I tried compiling my kernel. My desktop hung. I had to ssh in (from another box on my network)and stop some processes. It STILL didnt ruin the 200 day uptime.It was bad memory. SInce then, I have been running my primary workstation for months without a shutdown (except for kernel upgrades)
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
just type:
apt-get install [PACKAGE_NAME]
answer zero or maybe more configuration questions, and you're done.
If you prefer pointy-clicky things, there are several that allow you to acheive the same result with a few mouse clicks.
Debian: GNU/Linux done the Linux way
Maybe some articles on Linux in the enterprise, or writeups of Linux games. How about having O'Reilly provide an online book that is only available during the install process eh?? (they already provide a free chapter online anyway).
You could introduce people to new powerful/interesting/fun things and do something useful with the attention span. Even, you could have a content service that comes up when any installer runs and you can pick up where you left off.
You might even be able to sponsor the software you are installing with some paid-for information maybe.
There's a reason why it's so much like Lizard... It's not a copy of Lizard: it IS Lizard. Joe Cheek et al just took Caldera's installer, made a few very minor tweaks (like removing a few stages and twiddling with a few graphic files), then they called it RLizard.
This isn't just the installer, either. Lycoris' distro is built from OpenLinux. Sure, some other stuff was tweaked, but Lycoris at least USED to acknowledge that their distro is an altered version of OpenLinux.
I wish them all the luck in the world. Maybe they'll be the next Mandrake (taking someone else's distro, altering it, then making a name for themselves). I think the days of introducing new distros is long gone at least from a business perspective, but hey, that's just me. If they can pull it off, more power to 'em. I lost my lust for trying new distros a long time ago so I probably won't bother, but I guess there are still newbies out there who want to try Linux and think that a simple installation is all that matters.
Personally, after Linux is installed, I think that the distros are more alike than different. That's just me, though. An installation is done once, and then it's over and you have to actually use the system. Unless Lycoris has done some kind of magic that I don't already know about (after 10+ years of using Linux), something tells me the installed system will look like all the others. Dunno...
Again, I wish them luck. Debuting a distro after the Linux bubble has burst takes guts.
Advertise your version as able to connect as a Novell Netware Client. (And, of course, set it up to do this.)
... shudder!) Unless AbiWord decides to be a more full-featured word processor. Right now it's a lot more stable than KWord, but it doesn't do enough.
Until this happens it's a difficult sell. I can't find a single distribution that is coming out and claiming that it can connect to Novell Netware, though Red Hat, at least, can do this. But it's a hand-work setup instead of a Wizard, and it's not advertised. So I can't get people at work to take this seriously. (You figure! Perhaps it's just an excuse, but if I can get rid of enough excuses...)
I have hopes that the next version of KWord will be good enough that I can recommend it. Gnumeric and KSpread are already good enough for me, but I don't know how their macro languages stack up. Anyone seen any reviews? (I'm not a heavy spreadsheet user, so I can't really evaluate them.)
If KWord-the-next isn't good enough, then I'll have to spring for Star Office (Open Office works well on Windows, but on Linux
I don't suppose that anyone knows of any Linux trip modeling software? Sort of like TranPlan? Or Journey-to-work modeling? That wouldn't be a problem, but the consultants (no longer reachable) kept the source code to one of the central modules.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
The point is not to limit the options, but rather the defaults. There actually are arguments to me made for that choice. And it's been done before, actually even choosing between, say, debs and rpms is a limiting of the defaults. But with alien available its not a limit of the options.
...)
If one thinks about it, there are no distributions that don't limit the defaults in some place or other. It's sort of necessary. (Though possibly SlackWare or Gentoo
I suppose that this is a nit-pick, but to my mind it's an important one. If you say "limit your options" you may know what you mean, but others may misconstrue it, wilfully or not. Limit your defaults is more appropriate, even if a less familiar phraseology. It's more accurate in a literal sense, and it's more difficult to propagandize against.
As a side note, the Lycoris site is specific in saying that one could add SRPMs via the rebuild option. (It's based upon an older distribution, so they didn't really recommend adding binary RPMs.) It's only the supplied disks that have a stripped down distribution on them.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Personally I vastly prefer the X way to the MS way that I have to use at work (Win 2000). MS makes you type needless characters to get any pasting done -- it's slow and painful. I want to just select, point, click the way I can under X. If anything, I want a utility under Windows that can emulate this, rather than Linux apps that imitate the painful MS way.
OK, OK...read closer through Lycoris' site and saw that yes, Lycoris is based on Caldera. However, the MSNBC article suggested it was based on Corel Linux, which if memory serves me right is based on Debian.
set Stacy Rowe mode: ON
Sorry!
set Stacy Rowe mode: OFF
Ms. Geek
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
They have to learn all that CLI crap,
Are all the netscape plugins pre-loaded & configured by default?
You're assuming that all linux users think that way. I don't. I see this all the time - some arrogant 733t kid pours scorn on "Windows lusers" and suddenly all Linux users/developers are being told that they will never "succeed" unless they change their attitudes!
Like any large community, Linux users have people with all types of different attitudes and opinions. Don't slap it down because somebody said something you don't agree with.
You're assuming that all linux users think that way
I don't assume that. If I gave that impression it was unintentional. But one does begin to think that "most" do, especially after hanging out at slashdot for a while. In any case, however many do think that way it appears to be enough to slow the OS's penetration to the consumer desktop.
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
Read the article. Some Linux distro developer did :)
I did read the article. And they say they have done it...time will tell.
People should learn the CLI on Linux, Windows, or Mac OS X, exactly because it's there!
I really can't argue with that. It seems very reasonable indeed. I do believe that Linux has an over-reliance on the CLI, however. One shouldn't have to use it in order to wordprocess, email, Web browse, etc. One shouldn't have to use it to install or remove software. One shouldn't have to use it to do regular maintenance or disaster recovery either.
Using the CLI should be something you could learn to make you a more powerful user, not somthing you must learn in order to do the things listed above. My own two cents.
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
I've seen GIS guys laboriously organizing data and repetitively doing the same operations. I point out that if they script those operations, they can do them in a tenth fo the time, charge the customer half as much and make five times a much per unit hour of labor.
The reaction I get is, that would be nice, but I'm muddling through OK now.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
When I first read the first review here about the ease to use of Lycoris I got very interested to implement it on my job.
:) So the installation was done nicely and quick. Looked nice, except for the problem of not being able to choose the packages. But then there was the final thing about it.. When finished the installation it didn't reboot, but rather show me a login screen on KDE. I logged on try one of the apps, crashed, try a couple more, crashed both...
:)
The first thing I did was try to intall it on an old PII 266 64MB RAM, the installation was easy but long, then when I try it it was easy, I like the Network Neighborhood-like thing... but in general, my experience was a really slow system... and plus, I would have like to chose the packages that I want to install... Everytime I opened Konqueror was a damn slow thing and had to wait for about a minute for it to be usable (then another 30 secs. to go to a directory)
I thought it might have been the computer was an old one taken from a lab (I work on a University) so I try to install it on a newer one but I had trouble to boot the cd on that one.. I try on another one of the same configuration, same problem, so I thought it might be some wired problems with the bios or something (didn't went any deep on that).
So finally I tried on my box at home (It had to work on that one
And that was the end of me using lycoris, shut it down and got back to Debian. From my experience I would say that is a distribution that has a nice interface, but seems like needs to mature a lot still. It makes easy for the average user to work with it, but estability problems on its apps are still needing a lot of work.
I wouldn't recomend it for production yet, development is needed on it, so I guess as testers we could give a hand to the people at Redmon. I guess that ease of use sometimes sacrifies other powerfull features on a system... but what the hell, let's work on it
Actually I think they are based on Caldera.
All partitions automount.
You don't have to configure the file browser or install & configure codecs n plugins, etc.
left Click a Divx AVI in Konq & it automatically opens in Xine (or something) & just works
Open the browser onto a website that has 3 flash menus or animation & they just work. You don't get 3 windows poping on Netscape's plugin suggest you click a link to download a flash plugin & you click it & it downloads onto the computer heavens knows where & doesn't do anything.
If theres a need to know the CLI in order to recover then I seriously think we need a nicer front-end to the recovery process. A GUI-based recovery disk would be nice.
Well, as people move away from recovery floppies and towards recovery CDs (i.e. using the install disk as a recovery device), I'm sure GUI-based recorery programs will appear. It's just hard (not impossible, but hard) to fit a GUI on a floppy. Certainly all the Linux and Windows recovery (floppy) disks I've seen have been CLI-based.
Read the article. Some Linux distro developer did :)
:)
I did read the article. And they say they have done it...time will tell.
Well, between "user-friendly" distros like Lycoris, Lindows, and Mandrake (in my opinion), and considering the good work of the KDE and GNOME projects, I'm not so sure that people really need a CLI to use Linux anymore. That is, of course, to use it in the "standard" way (I'm taking about word-processing, not installing hardware). Obviously, this is just my opinion. I'm sure that omeone out there would disagree
I really can't argue with that. It seems very reasonable indeed. I do believe that Linux has an over-reliance on the CLI, however. One shouldn't have to use it in order to wordprocess, email, Web browse, etc. One shouldn't have to use it to install or remove software. One shouldn't have to use it to do regular maintenance or disaster recovery either.
I'm not sure why you're thinking that Linux users need a CLI to wordprocess, email or web browse. I sure don't use one to do any of those things. I just use abiword, konqueror and kmail for each of those tasks, respectively. Why do you think people need a CLI to do this stuff on Linux?
As for installing applications, you're right that an awful lot of them to require the use of scripts. Then again, an awful lot can be done with a good GUI front-end to your favorite package manager (e.g. rpm or apt-get). You are right, though, that Linux could improve in this area. Perhaps KDE and/or GNOME should create a standardized installer program?
As for maintainence or disaster recovery... well, it really depends on the type of maintainence/disaster, doesn't it? If your hard drive has been corrupted, you're going to need a recovery disk, which may well be CLI (especially if it's a recovery floppy... it's hard to put a GUI on 1.44MB, not to mention that recovery disks should be as simple as possible to be as reliable as possible). As for "maintainence", I guess I don't know what qualifies. I don't ever defragment or virus-scan my Linux box, and my hard drives (the non-journalled partitions) are checked a-la scandisk every so many bootups. File management? Use kfm or some other graphical browser.
I'm not sure why you're thinking that Linux users need a CLI to wordprocess, email or web browse
I'm not thinking that at all. I'm just listing stuff that a CLI shouldn't be needed for.
Anyhow, I don't think we're in disagreement really. One thing I'd like to try is putting a dozen Linux machines in front of a dozen of my users. Then I'd really know what was working for them and what wasn't. An even better test would be to send them home with them.
Come to think of it I think I'm going to bring home a machine from work and install Linux on it. Give it to my kids maybe. See what they think of it. Unfortunately I don't think I can come up with suitable PC hardware...It may have to be a 120 MHz Macintosh 7200. I could put the new release of Yellow Dog on it.
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?