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Vegas: Monorails v. Gridlock
TimeTrip writes "Vegas seems to be taking a little cue from Disney. 'Las Vegas, which never stops thinking big, has just embarked on its most ambitious, costly attempt to solve a problem that once seemed impossible to have in this sprawling desert valley: gridlock. It is building the nation's largest monorail system.'"
Or maybe they'll be taking their cue from Lyle Lanly. Frankly this sounds more
like a Shelbyville idea.
The Monorail Song:
Monorail Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there's nothing on earth Like a genuine, Bona fide, Electrified, Six-car Monorail! What'd I say? Ned Flanders: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: What's it called? Patty+Selma: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: That's right! Monorail! [crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically] Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud... Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud. Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend? Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend. Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs? Lyle Lanley: You'll be given cushy jobs. Abe: Were you sent here by the devil? Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I'm on the level. Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can. Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man. I swear it's Springfield's only choice... Throw up your hands and raise your voice! All: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: What's it called? All: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: Once again... All: Monorail! Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken... Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken! All: Monorail! Monorail! Monorail! [big finish] Monorail! Homer: Mono... D'oh!
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I love the vegas twist on mass transit. Instead of throwing your dollar into a meter, you get to toss it into a one armed bandit. I can see the lines of blue haired ladies lining up for their chance to play a role of the bus.
Glass protected stations that protect people from walking on the track are not new. In London I remember going to an underground stop which had glass doors so you couldn't go on the track. It is a good idea to implement it in Las Vegas though.
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Niles.html
Personally though all I can think about is the Monorail Simpsons Episode...Doh!
I see no forseeable danger in this at all. Just keep a big letter 'M' on the side of the train for emergency braking, along with an oversized steel donut.
Let's get this out of the way early:
SELECT *
FROM smartass_remarks
WHERE simpsons='t' AND
topic='monorail'
There.
Am I right? Eh?!?! Ever been there, you know of what I say.
Every fscking time I've been there I have to fork over ~$10 for a Bell taxi or something, which all smell like they last scrubbed inside with a dead cat! Seriously, every other major city I've been in the big hotels have shuttles, but not LV, I swear it's a labor thing of somesort or a major bribe has been paid.
In either case, I would certainly like to see how well the monorail plan gets around to the airport.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Look at your sig... this is the 3rd day of said blackout.. and you're POSTING constructive comments to the story? I don't think this tactic is working out very well, sorry to say. I pity you.
If you really wanted to make an impact, you'd really need to get together way more users to boycott slashdot than what is going on now.
If Vegas gets a monorail, will we have HBO's "Monorail Confessions" to look forward to?
~Philly
It is good to see Las Vegas actually pour some concrete. Seattle (unlike the article implies) already passed a measure to extend by up to 40 miles the mono-rail, passed taxes (well, rammed them down the throats of the sensible people that knew they'd never see service under the planned terms) for a light rail system, and has managed to spend all the allocated money without breaking ground. (they did buy the trains already, and have taken deliver on some, but not facilities to actually even house them, let alone track to run them on.) And, to make matters worse, several of the officials have admitted they grossly underestimated the costs because the voters would never have passed it with legitmate figures. So Vegas gets it right and Seattle bites.
A few cool mockups, and some more detailed maps.
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/LasVegas.html
http://www.lvnvmonorail.com/
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Mr. Leonard Nimoy.
Nimoy: I'd say this vessel could do at least Warp Five.
[appreciative laughter from the crowd]
Quimby: And let me say, ``May the Force Be With You!''
Nimoy: [annoyed] Do you even know who I am?
Quimby: [indignant] I think I do. Weren't you one of the Little Rascals?
The monorail is mainly meant for the downtown/Strip area of the city. That is where 95% of the touristy shit is, so it is always congested in that area of town, no matter what time of day or night it is. They say something about expanding to suburbs down the road, but I truly wonder if that will happen.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
Here's a page (framed, mozilla unfriendly, slow jsp)
from the principal contractor, Bombardier.
This is the largest of three monorails they are building (although they say 4 miles, not 8). What's cool is that two of the three are for systems to get around downtown, not just for a system to get you to the airport parking lot.
Unfortunately, the careers page doesn't reveal any openings. Sigh, this is the sort of socially responsible project that so many aerospace companies were to turn to after the cold war ended.
I remember the monorail at Disneyland. It is a smooth, efficient ride along what is pretty much a bridge. Not a big bridge, but pretty much an economical, space efficient concrete covered I-beam that twists around the taller buildings and sights.
Quite a view. Much less obtrusive than paving right of ways for new highways or widening the existing roads. I don't think you would find too much objections from business owners having supports for the system mounted next to their billboards and such. It doesn't cast much of a shadow, and they are very quiet with their electric motors.
They are not very fast due to the mechanical aspect of gripping the structure. It wouldn't be efficient on maintenence to have them flying at 150mph or anything. Too much wear and tear on the tires and concrete structure for something that has to grip at such high tolerances.
Its more the scenerey, I guess. Economical. Quiet. Relaxing.
There are plenty of reasons to encourage this sort of thing, especially when you consider the benefits from it. I am not even talking about the envrionmental benefits either. The real motivator for this should be Self Intrest. Cars are simply too expensive to be worth it.
You pay for the Car, gas, parking, insurance, and maintenence. If your able to take advantage of a decent mass transit system, you will at most need to pay for the access pass. The costs of such passes are always cheaper then the costs of using and maintaining a vehicle.
The money you save as a result of using Mass Transit can be redirected to other, more fun costs. Like Videogames, new computer gear, and other electronic goodies.
END COMMUNICATION
I was just in Vegas a few weeks ago. The monorail is in various states of completion along its route, but it is very impressive. I was initially confused, as some places looked as though they were already operational; alas, there was only the track. Other places just barely had formwork in place, not even the concrete poured yet. But the really interesting thing is that the monorail seems to be "integrated" into a few of the casinos along its route, passing under/over/through some of the casino eye-candy.
From a purely selfish point of view, it makes a lot of sense for the casinos to support the project. It took 30 minutes to drive the length of the Strip during rush hour... at 3am it was closer to 5 minutes, even including a few red lights. Now, casinos really don't want you leaving, but most realize that half the people in Vegas aren't there to gamble -- but they spend money anyway, be it in the buffet line or in the themed casino shopping malls. Allowing all those mobile customers to more easily patronize your establishments makes a lot of sense.
But the best thing Las Vegas could do would be to extend the line to McCarran Airport. It's not that I minded the $5 I paid for a van ride to my hotel, it's the hour I waited for said van and the additional 30 minute ride down the Strip. A monorail would solve that problem very nicely. It would also be a natural extension of the "light-rail" line that shuttles passengers between the old and new terminal buildings within the airport. (As an architectural aside, the new terminal building is a very nice example of "high-tech" design. The cable-truss window walls are especially beautiful to behold...)
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I know that Vegas isn't really for geeks, so I figured that I'll mention that Las Vegas already has a small monorail. It goes between MGM and Bally's, and every time that I have used it it is *packed*. Not just full, but packed, and you often have to wait for 2 trips to get on. It's a *great* idea. I'll definately use it when it's done. It's hot as fuck there in the summer (120), and it's a long fucking walk between even the casinos that are close together. I'm young and healthy, and during the summer, I have trouble walking from say, Bellagio to New York, New York. I can only imagine that older people will love it. I know that I'll use it.
Vegas should just skip the monorail phase and go straight to transporters.
Or Segways . Close the strip to cars and fill the city with Segways. It'd be the perfect commercial for both the city and the Segway.
Or Trebuchets . Boy, I'm full of helpful ideas tonight!
The Seattle Monorail Project aims to put a monorail in downtown Seattle. It's set to be put to a vote in November, I think.
Seattle suffers from the same problem: too many damn cars. With the 2nd worst rush hour traffic in the US (behind LA) I hope they can pull it off. There have been fights with light rail folks, but I think monorail is a much better option. Keep it above grade so there is little disruption of traffic. Many claim that monorail is Mickey Mouse transit. (no thanks to certain Simpson's parodies). Keep in mind that millions use monorail daily for transportation in Japan. When the people from Seattle went over to look at Japan's system they were blown away by its efficiency and capacity. After spending time abroad, I've become very disappointed with the mass transit systems in the US (or lack there of).
We love our cars way too much.
A speech...
I still find it curious that the west really doesn't depend on public transportation.
I live in Boston, and there is no doubt in my mind that today, tomorrow, and next week I'll be taking the train to work. It's about 10x cheaper than driving & parking in the city. And lots easier too.
I drive into work about once a month. That's plenty.
But I guess each to his own. If you love to be seen in your car, well, then I guess then that settles the issue!
The problem with expanding the Seattle monorail is that it was designed more as a novelty than anything: it took people from downtown to Seattle Center (the site of the World's Fair). As such, it was never designed to be expanded; the planners never really thought beyond the end of the fair (although it was pitched as a marvelous solution to all sorts of transit problems, it was built almost entirely for the "Wow, neat!" factor). If Vegas builds a monorail network as part of a serious public transit program, it will probably be built with expandability in mind.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
I've heard that the dry desert air plays some funny optical illusion tricks with your eyes and makes distances look much shorter than they actually are
I think it has to do with the fact that the casino's are MASSIVE and there's nothing in between to help judge the distance.
Jason.
Seriously, I mean the AC's right. The post in question clearly wasn't a troll. Heck, I'd even hesistate to mod the original down as Redundant, seeing as it came only two minutes after the first posting of the song. And come on, given the article topic, it's not like you didn't expect the song to make a showing, right? =)
Not only is this an idea used by Disney, the trains themselves are Disney Engineering Mk.IV. class monorails. They were designed and built by Disney.
Disney replaced the Mk.IVs with Bombardier built Mk.VIs (The Mk.Vs are at DisneyLand). The new trains are inferior according to the drivers, but the trains had been aquired already. They are, in all fairness, more roomy to the passengers. Disney then sold the old Mk.IVs, still in perfect condition, to the city of Las Vegas.
So, when you are riding on a train between hotels, you are most likely riding the same train you might have riden 10 years ago at Walt Disney World.
-twb
Sheesh. If monorails were really so good, they would be all over the place. But 200 years (okay, 198) years after Richard Trevithick invented the steam locomotive (btw, the , birail systems are quite prevalent throughout the known universe).
Must be their inherent simplicity and stability, no? If you really look around, there aren't really much monorails...
the monorail is great; i recently spent almost an hour on the strip, moved maybe two car lengths, desperate to pee. it sucked.
they need more lateral action off the strip, maybe with some cheep buses or something, so guys like me can get to the strip from our cheap hotels...
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For a population of 2 million, why?
In the past few years I have visited a quite a few cities in this world around the size of Las Vegas with excellent mass transit. Getting around Vegas was a disaster. (I had a car) Getting around these other cities was a much cheaper, faster, and more enjoyable experience.
Athens - 3 million (rode in 2001, damn is Greek hard to read)
Barcelona - 1.6 million (rode in 2002, fantastic system, took two taxis in nine days)
Budapest - 2 million (rode in 2000. took me everywhere)
Bucharest - 2.3 million (rode in 2000. comprehensive but a little dodgy. about as clean as NYC)
Prague - 1.2 million (rode in 2000. they even have English signs!)
Warsaw 1.6 million (1999,2000,2001 - only one underground, but linked with dozens of tram lines.)
I should mention that all of these cities have extensive bus and streetcar networks which mesh seamlessly with their metros. And that all of these systems have incredibly high ridership. They're always packed, and yet they always run on time.
Next to what I've seen abroad, NYC is ok, Washington DC is fair, and Chicago and Boston (where I live and ride the T daily) are utterly pathetic. (I wish the crooked politicians in Boston would put 1/10th of what they put into the roads and the "big dig" into the MBTA. It'd be a city worth living in.)
I do believe that I'll visit Vegas again when their Monorail is up and running. And I bet I'll see a lot more of the city than I did on my last visit. (then again, if you've seen one glitzy casino...)
A bunch of posters here have wondered "why build such a thing?" Having just had the misfortune of visiting Vegas, let me say why the city is uniquely suited to benefit from a monorail.
Like no other city, Las Vegas is made up a tremendously high percentage of people who visit just for a the weekend. Tens of thousands of people fly into Vegas every week, all of whom go directly to the casinos, where they sleep in the upstairs hotel rooms. Right now, they essentially have two viable choices: cab or rental car.
Nobody wants to go through the hassle of figuring out a bus system just after flying into town. And walking that mile or so to the casinos, with luggage, in the dessert heat won't work either. A monorail dedicated to connect the airport with the strip is an incredible idea, as much as I may personally detest gambling.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
Too bad they are thinking "big 1960's style public transportation". A monorail system like Personal Rapid Transit would have been so much nicer. See also here.
One can only hope that this will be as good as the "People Mover". The monorail running through the Urban Blight Theme Park: Detroit.
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I'll bet the high price is due to typical classy Vegas features:
A plan to install over 3 million synchronized pulsing neon lights, flash bulbs and lasers on the track and the trains. The multiple megawatts of lights will create dazzling complex virtual waves of light shooting through the city 24-hours per day. The light show will be accompanied by a specially commissioned sound track from Andrew Lloyd Webber will be blasted from high-powered loudspeakers.
Another expensive feature is the plan to accelerate the cars to 90MPH in under 3 seconds, giving enough velocity to negotiate thrilling 360 degree vertical loops installed at every third block.
I strongly suspect that all posts in this vein are purely the work of residents of the USA, where screwed up sexuality is de rigeur for many social groups. Is this true?
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Perhaps the people building this could get something out of trying two trains in Japan.
- The monorail from Shimbashi (in Tokyo near the Ginza) to Ariake (manmade peninsula with convention and amusement facilities).
This is an unmanned, beautiful monorail which loops out over the sea. Has some good handholds and soft parts you can lean on because it seems on a narrow train with lots of windows you get pushed strongly to the side when you don't expect it. Beautiful glass car in front is a great panorama.
- The newest subway built in Tokyo, opened last year: Namboku Line which runs from northern Tokyo down to fashionable Azabu. (Like the above monorail I believe) the platform is enclosed on either side by glass walls interrupted by sliding glass doors which only open when the train stops right in front of it. There are metal posts with electric eyes on them just inside where the doors retract, so that they won't try to close while someone is entering. No room also because of those posts for someone to slide outside the glass wall.
The story that I heard was that this type of system had been planned for years but cabbie groups had lobbied city hall to stall it.
I read in the paper (somewhere), that for the London ring road to have traffic the density that it had soon after it was built, the ring road would need about 20 lanes each direction.
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I don't have any linkage for you, but I guess I could walk outside and take some pictures. A local hospital is footing the bill for an approximately 3 mile monorail line in downtown Indianapolis to connect Methodist Hospital with the IUPUI Campus and all the hospitals around it.
Clarian Health, who owns most of these hospitals is foot the 34 million dollar bill for this, and the city will get monthly payments from them for taking land away I guess. I just have to find out if I can catch a ride to class on the thing, or if it will be limited to medical personel only.
What?
"We want them to think it's like a ride at Disneyland," said Bob Broadbent, who leads the project, "not public transportation."
DisneyVegas (or is it VegasWorld?) can afford mass transit of this type, it certainly doesn't fit the real world any more than its extravagent use of water in a desert that gets less than 10" a year (the definition of a desert!) could be supported without its financial underpinnings as a destination resort.
Monorails are innefficient which is one of the main reasons why they've not been adopted. As this poster says, they have tires and tires on concrete, whether they grip the road or grip a concrete i-beam, are inherently less efficient and require more frequent replacement than good old steel-on-steel rail.
Elevating saves money, but steel-on-steel rail can be elevated, too.
So ... the motivation here is not only to reduce congestion but to do so via 1960s technology which, not having been adopted mainstream for very good reasons, is still exotic and therefore fitting for a tourist destination.
I'm not knocking it ... it seems ideal for Las Vegas (just as buses coming down from NYC and urban NJ seem ideal technology for Atlantic City).
But if anyone thinks this portends a change in thinking as to the future of mass transit ... better get Disney or the mob involved before adopting monorail as your savior from congestion!
However, the next expansion (which will be completed in a few years, IIRC) is a link between Denver and a large suburb to the south. A benefit to commuters, but also greatly welcomed by shoppers.
Also the proposed monorail is meant to connect Denver with the ski resorts-- it isn't meant to be a "downtown monorail" as the article implies.
What is it with geeks and monorails anyway?
And the Simpsons song just isn't funny anymore.
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That will never work in Vegas. Have you seen the crowds on the strip?. You need that monorail to be able to pick up large numbers of people. big style public transportation is exactly what is called for.
i was wondering how that name was familiar - now i remember the nyc subway trains are built by them.
By the way the aerospace companies probably wont turn to this kind of work, because cities cannot afford the fantastic overpayments that the fed govt gives them. they actually have to show a working model in return for their fees which may be a bit dissapointing for companies that are used to making missile defense systems.
are you saying there are no dense urban areas in america? that is just not true ... and several of those dense urban areas really need good mass transit.
I would add san fransisco to the list of the poster above.
and i miss news radio as well. sigh ...
Also, from the article: The first four miles of the rail project are being funded entirely with private money raised through tax-free bonds.
And who do they expect to eventually pay off those bonds, the tooth fairy? Sounds like the whole thing is publicly funded to me...
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Anyone who brings kids to vegas is expecting to expose them to such things! You can't even walk down the strip without being handed flyers for call girls. Someone passed out in a pool of vomit is nothing.
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i think monorails are cheaper than raised rail, but raised rail allows for higher speeds and efficiency.
Cheaper because, at least around here, they're massively subsidized. I'm one of those who wished public transportation was viable, but it simply isn't for a lot of people. I far too often need to go somewhere when nothing's running but taxis (which are hideously expensive here). I need some way of bringing $200 of groceries home, which isn't going to happen on any public conveyance I've seen. There are also issues of efficiency. I have a tightly packed day already. I don't have the time to wait around or walk from the nearest stop. Given that, having a car is necessary for me. Having already incurred the expense, it's always cheaper and more convenient, for any given trip, to use it.
Public transportation will only be successful for people like me when it's on demand between any two points I choose, can carry lots of stuff when I need it, lots of people when I need it, and *still* be cheaper than owning a car. Good luck.
My first response was Yes! As somebody who goes to Las Vegas several times a year, and cringes while sitting in cabs as the meter keeps running at stoplights, I was happy to see finally a nice transit system that stays out of the way of traffic.
Then I saw the route map.
1/2 the strip is not accessed by it. It starts at the MGM grand. And, most problematic, it does'nt go to the airport.
If I was designing this, it would run up the strip to the Sahara, turn right to the convention center, then head north to downtown.
I can't help to think that those cab drivers I hate so much had something to do with this assinine design.
The Internet is generally stupid
The airport, casinos, and some of the major hotels would be obvious nodes for the rail network. For those fixated on increasing economic growth through 'security' measures, some of the airlines could offer check-in at some of the more prestigious hotels or conference centers. This would be an obvious attraction for tourists and would allow the airlines extra time to scan the bags and back up their 'profiling' with hard data.
In Chicago, many rails came years before many of the buildings. I think there the rail companies did it the other way around and sold air rights to put buildings over the tracks. Monorail's a good option when you don't have the budget to bore tunnels or buy up surface real estate.
What's the geology like there? Maybe they could hire Norwegians to bore tunnels. ;)
(Subway / tube / underground sure, but how about "Casino Moria"?)
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Maybe pedestrian/auto traffic wouldn't be so bad if Las Vegas (aka the strip) was designed to allow people to easily move from one point to another. Sometimes if you wanna cross the street, you have to go in one casino cross over a walkway into another Casino and then exit. Also, the walkways tend to suck you towards the main casino entrance so instead of walking in a straight line you have to wiggle around a lot. Some of the outdoor shows (like Treasure Island, Bellagio Fountains maybe) are placed in such a way that they completely cut off all flow of pedestrian traffic. A few people stop to watch and then everyone gets jammed up. It's sometimes faster to cut through the Casino. My point is the Strip is designed to pull people into Casinos, not to help people get around. Point and case, the monorail actually appears to avoid most of the strip. The only strip stops shown on the map are around the Bellagio and MGM (owned by the same group right?).
i spent over 10 years of my life living in Vegas...
i must say that most towns wouldnt be well suited to this type of project, there are just too many directions people travel in the typical city. But Las Vegas is very different, there is the "strip", almost all big casinos sit right on this street (Las Vegas Blvd). The traffic on this street is absolutely ridiculous, and it can take quite a while to get from one end of the strip to the other.
This kind of project would probably be far less economical in the average town where traffic heads in many different directions, but Las Vegas is especially well suited for this project. I would guess that over 50% of the traffic in the town heads up and down a very specific corridor and that not only is this feasible in Vegas, it is one of the few places it could be a preffered solution
What a bunch of prudes! I hope they have a bar on the train so I don't have to sneak a flask onboard.
A lot of Americans go abroad on vacation and get blown away by how well mass transit works. Let me tell you why that is not a good way to evaluate it.
A typical European major city is built around a more or less ancient center, where all roads and transit system originate, with important extensions to the airport and rail stations. As I hope you can see, the mass transit system is working at it's very best for the typical travel patterns of a tourist, going between the main transit centers and all the tourist attractions in the center.
Now, if you were to live in a regular home and commute to a regular job in that same city, things would be very different. You'd be going from one suburb to another, probably having to change train or bus at the center. It would take at least twice as long as going by car, quite likely more. You could and would probably make arrangements so you lived where mass transit was favorable for your commute, but whenever you were going to some friend or some other random place, you'd have quite a logistical task on your hands.
And that's in a city that's always had it's transportation system built for mass transit. In an american city, built from the ground up for cars, it would work quite a bit worse.
I think I know since I moved to San Francisco from Stockholm 7 years ago. And while Stockholm has a quite decent mass transit system, and SF traffic is painfully congested, going by car here just can't compare to going by mass transit there. It's one of my bigger reasons for not moving back.
Every time a topic comes along that involves monorails, we have to put up with two things...the obligatory Simpsons quotes and now the links to the website from the guy who put one inhis backyard! I'll tell you, seeing the lyrics to Lyle Lanley and Co. is wearing just a little bit thin.
Seriously, though, I'd be interesting to know why it is that everybody in the States automatically thinks of monorails whenever non-bus public transit is discussed. Could it be that you're all becoming just a little bit too Disnified? I'm surprised there is little mention of the old San Fransisco cablecars. Maybe you'd prefer something along the lines of Alfred Ely Beach's pneumatic subway!
If you make the trip over to Europe, you will see that just about every town or city has some sort of public transit involving surface light rail, usually trams/streetcars. Every one of these systems is efficient and well run. I see no reason why the same cannot be done over here. If it's a question of space, remember that all of these European towns are strapped for any space, and efforts are made to preserve as much green space or living space as possible. Still they install the tramways. They go down the centre of multi-lane boulevards, down disused railways, purpose built elevated track, pedestrian malls, and, because they can be built to accommodate regular tired vehicles--cars, no pun intended--straight down any city streets. In short, a tram can be built to go just about anywhere that efficient public transit is needed. It's also handy that nobody would need to re-invent the wheel, as excellent, KISS technology exists. For those concerned about costs and subsidies, keep in mind that places like Zagreb and Sarajevo, both capitals of war-torn countries, don't exactly have much money to throw around, but rebuilding their own tram lines has been a priority. For the NIMBY types, these systems are quiet and often quite picturesque, especially compared to buses. (Postcards of trams are everywhere! Besides a red London Double Decker, ever see a picture postcard featuring a diesel bus?)
North America was filled with streetcar systems right up to the '50's. Ottawa, for instance, had an excellent streetcar system that ran all over what was then the city. It was even powered by its own hydroelectric power dam on the Ottawa River! Killing it off is now considered one of the stupidest things that City Hall ever did! Toronto still has much of theirs, and has been expanding it in recent years. There are certainly no plans to build any more lines like the crappy Scarborough RT line, a monorail, that hasn't been the best of systems.
Have all the plans and designs for these practical and efficient systems been thrown out in favour of all these amusement park monorail rides? If monorails as public transit are so efficient, so quiet, so inexpensive and so simple, I fail to see why they aren't all over Europe, where space saving and efficiency is all-important.
*****
Many of 'em are pretty big, but they're right next to each other. There aren't many open lots left on the Strip...from Trop to Sahara, the only open lot of any considerable size is the southeast corner of Sahara & Las Vegas Blvd., north of Circus Circus. The rest of it has been built up for some time now.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Ah, that's why they are going to build maglevs especially in Europe and Japan Because they are more expensive to build and maintain.
In fact, they are building them because current trains have NOT enough capacity. Especially the highly congested route between Tokyo and Osaka. (Probably the first "real" route sporting maglev.)
AFAIK, the construction costs are indeed higher. Nonetheless, the conventional successors of highspeed trains as the Shinkansen, the TGV or the ICE are mostly limited to roughly 300km/h operational speed. The problem is at very high speed the wheels and the track are strained to the extreme, which leads to wear and tear of the same.
A future successors of the Shinkansen (Linear Chuo Shinkansen ) will be based on maglev, as the supposed successor of the ICE-line the Transrapid.
The Linear Chuo Shinkansen is supposed to have an operational speed of 500km/h. The current Transrapid built in China has an operational speed of 300km/h
Not to mention the better acceleration and lower noise rate, delivered by these solutions.
The Transrapid reaches 300km/h after 5km from a standing start and breaks certainly as fast as it accelerates.
Furthermore, the energy consumption of current maglev based trains are about 40% lower than their conventional counterparts.
"Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
A moment's thought about the forces involved will also reveal that a single-rail design is much more difficult to get right. In fact, every "monorail" system I've ever seen has a very wide track, and the trains have wheels on both sides. They are really very narrow-gauge dual-rail systems in which the two rails are connected by a web of excess material that contributes a lot of weight and very little structural integrity.
So why are we so enamored of monorail? Simple: in the 1950's, Walt Disney was looking for a way to make part of his park "futuristic". He was so successful that the entire country has bought into the idea that monorails are clever technology. Not.
As a Vegas ride, this project makes perfect sense. For any other city, we should stick with promoting above- or below-grade transportation systems, and let the engineers decide on the rail count.
The only technological solution I can see is remote monitoring combined with an override system that could let a security guard send any capsule straight to the police station. But constant monitoring of every capsule is pretty expensive.
the monorail rides on concrete with rubber wheels. While the rail rides on steel rails with steel wheels. Both concepts have tradeoffs.
Zero...and it's covered, too. (Who the hell pays to park at work, anyway? Your employer ought to have a lot where you can stick your car...how else are you supposed to get to work on time, every time?)
If you avoid the Strip at all times and avoid I-15 and the part of US 95 west of the Spaghetti Bowl during rush hour, getting around town isn't as bad as some people have made it out to be. Idiot drivers are a problem (especially since we have so many ex-Californians here who never learned to drive in the first place), but they seem to be a problem nearly anywhere you go.
Already have the degree and the decent-paying job...last time I made $6/hr. was when I started at Best Buy at the tail end of '94. Thanks for playing, though.
Closer to $2.00 at current gas prices, given my commute...and it takes half an hour each way. CAT charges $2.50 for the same round trip, and you'll be stuck on the bus 3x longer. (Been there, done that.)
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Well, then let's get rid of the personal automobile immediately! After all, the personal automobile is even more dangerous. In addition to entering it often in dimly lit parking lots, unlike PRT, personal automobiles are not monitored by cameras, can't be tracked by GPS, and can be commandeered by criminals into the most remote locations. Personal automobiles are obviously highly dangerous! Abolish them immediately!
They see it on the TV screen every day anyway. With one major difference - on TV they also get shot or violently abused. So, somehow, I do not see your point unless you have banned your youngsters from TV, computers, games, books and every other item of "modern" civilisation.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
I have to disagree. London has the Tube. It has roads. You travel across london WAY quicker by tube than by car. The average road speed in london has been the exact same since 1900 at just below 9mph. The only exception to this is travel during the day (i.e. not rush) round the M25 (suburb to suburb) when you can probably keep up with the tube / trains.
And Londons system STINKS - but its still faster than by car in 90% of journeys. Doesn;t stop people using the car though - its not like you can turn up at work and have everyone check out your nice new rail pass "looook - its got GPS!!!! you want to shag me now don't you hot PA"
Your also a shitload less likely to be killed on the monorail than by car!
Las Vegas has over 300,000 hotel rooms, almost all of which are full on any given weekend. Over 15 MILLION people come to Las Vegas to visit every year. By the way, the average Las Vegas visitor spends over $950 while they are there.
Tens of thousands, hah.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
There are plenty of "real" high-capacity monorails, especially in Japan: Tokyo, Chiba, Tama, Osaka and Kitakyushu are the biggies, with more under construction even right now (eg. a new system in Naha, Okinawa). Malaysia is also investing heavily in monorails. See monorails.org for details.
Cheers,
-j.
Here in Houston, we have surpassed LA as the worst traffic in the country and I believe it. You can't go anywhere in this town without it taking an hour.
However, we are building a light-rail system. The bad news is Lee Brown our idiot mayor big pushed had it go from downtown to the Astrodome. This is nowhere near a major traffic artery going into downtown and serves only one purpose: get the 2012 Olympics to Houston.
So instead of running this thing down the Katy Freeway/I-10 (most heavily congested highway in the country) we get to goto downtown from proposed "Olympic Village" into downtown. In addition, the Harris County Toll Authority is putting in more lanes into the Katy Freeway which some will be toll, YUCK! As many of the posters have said the planners of these things aren't the people that would use it the most. Its all politics and not solving the serious traffic problem.
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/Skytrain/index.shtm l
Unfortuneatly, they are having money problems because the price is too high for the average thai. It does work remarkably well, but doesn't have enough track to make it worthwhile to everyone(doesn't go to the airport for example).
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Cheaper because, at least around here, they're massively subsidized.
So is your car. What, did you think roads were free?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
The main reasons that putting in mass transit in US cities is harder is (1) that the population density is much smaller and (2) traffic patterns aren't nearly as uniform.
(1) is because everyone has a car, and their "active range" is much bigger. I was pretty happy going by bike and mass transit in Stockholm. But if my average trip there was 5 km it's perhaps 15km here. I get there equally fast. It seems everyone likes to live 30-60 minutes from their work, that means that Americans in general live much more spread out.
Anyway, regardless of why, the population density difference is a fact. And this is a problem for mass transit since with 1/3 the population density, you'd need 9 times as much mass transit, at 9 times the cost to serve the same population. That's a lot of empty busses and trains.
(2) US cities don't have much of a center, especially the younger ones. LA, Dallas & Phoenix are mostly huge spread out built areas with little distinction. Trips people make tend to be from fairly random points A to equally random points B.
In short, mass transit is hard in these cities because there is little mass movement. All travel is individual. There are no huge streams of movements that a mass transit system could serve really well.
European cities have grown and developed over centuries together with their transportation systems. Those systems serve their needs, and the habits of their population have been formed by the available services.
Older US cities like New York, Boston and Chicago have evolved in a more European way, and do have pretty respectable and well used mass transit systems.
I'm sure you're right about transportation in London. But consider why that is so. And it sure doesn't make me want to move to London!
There's something special about taking a monorail to your favorite brothel.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Actually, Sound Transit, the multi-county organization with a board appointed by the state are the ones that are building the light rail.
Seattle has a separate project, the Elevated Transportation Company, which was created by city initiatives and a couple of lawsuits, and which last night held the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) hearings for it's Phase I.
I understand the confusion. Sound Transit is building a 14 mile long light rail system for regional needs, while the City of Seattle's ETC is building a separate (but connected) 14 mile long monorail system for local needs paid by local Seattle taxes. And the mayor of Seattle is on the board of Sound Transit and supports both projects, while most Seattle citizens love the monorail but hate light rail.
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--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
yeah, gum is doubleplus ungood
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Your last sentence is the flaw in your argument. Engineers dont decide on the rail count, the politicans do. That's why Seattle's regional transit agency, Sound Transit, decided on a light rail system. The only problem with that is that is that Seattle A) Has lots of hills and B) Has no unused railroad lines to commandeer
Actually, it's not Seattle's regional transit agency - Sound Transit is a three-county state appointed agency, and Seattle has very little say in what it does or what taxes the state imposed on us for it.
Seattle's transit system is the ETC, part of the City of Seattle, not the multi-county Sound Transit regional transportation agency.
What may be confusing you is the busses in Seattle are run by King County, which includes the dark land where bill g resides, across Lake Washington in Bellevue, Redmond, and Issaquah, all places that are definitely not Seattle. You have to cross the world's largest floating bridges to get there.
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--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Yes, you're right--they're not even planning on incorporating the current monorail in Seattle with the new system. If they overlap the route, the old one would be torn down and replaced; most likely, they'd pick a different route and leave the existing system intact (which is still a great way to get from downtown to Lower Queen Anne in a hurry).
The real problem with the new proposal, IMHO, is that it's a large outlay of money (really, really expensive per mile, if the latest numbers in the Times are to be believed) for an inflexible system. It's one thing to lay light rail or monorail between major urban centers (say, Seattle and Tacoma) or well-established traffic magnets (casinos) but the urban landscape changes--will the neighborhoods this is built to still be popular in twenty years? Fifty? Will downtown continue to boom or will it decentralize in that time? What about the significant portion of the population that commutes to or from the Eastside? It just seems like a very limited, inflexible, expensive plan which has great glitz value but not necessarily a lot of practical solution to it.
No relation to Happy Monkey
The problem with expanding the Seattle monorail is that it was designed more as a novelty than anything: it took people from downtown to Seattle Center (the site of the World's Fair). As such, it was never designed to be expanded; the planners never really thought beyond the end of the fair
Is that why it's run at a profit since then?
Heck, I work in a building next door to the line. A lot quieter than Vancouver BC's Skytrain and very very much quieter than Chicago's El.
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--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Las Vegas already HAS a monorail system. It goes between the MGM Grand up and down the strip. It connects about 3 or 4 hotels, and is being expanded.
It's been running for years, and is really the best way to get around, at least for the few hotels it connects. Sometimes, even the sidewalks are so crowded, it's difficult just to walk the strip.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I'm afraid I'm missing your point. The claim is that using a bus is cheaper than using a car. Both do require roads, correct? Given that using *either* necessitates roads, they (the roads) are out of the picture. It costs more to move someone around in a bus than a car. It's limiting. Try carrying 20 bags of groceries in a bus. Try dealing with that server crash at the office at 3:30 am after buses stop running. Public transportation simply doesn't meet my needs at this point in life. Perhaps it will later, but not now.
Monorail....Monorail....Monorail!!!!!!!!!!!!!n o-.........DOH!!
Mo
It costs less to move people around in a bus than in a car. My point is that both forms of transportation are subsidized, so there's not much point in pointing it out.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I forgot about the most obvious one! The one that goes between Excalibur, Luxor, and Mandalay Bay! Jeez, that was stupid... But irregardless, oen to bind them all will be really, really good.
Your point is incorrect. Cars aren't subsidized. Roads, which *both* cars and buses require, are paid for with tax dollars, which isn't quite the same thing. As a car owner, I get to pay about $400 a year in vehicle taxes alone, not including sales and income taxes which go into the general fund, to subsidize those roads for the public transportation riders, who pay a discount on the cost of moving the bus around. If bus riders paid the actual cost of moving around in a bus, there wouldn't be even the few there are now.