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ReplayTV Switches To Subscription Model For New Unit
aclute writes "ReplayTV is going to move to a subscription-fee for it's new 4500 series in order to "meet the needs of national electronics retailers with lower overall costs and increased promotional opportunities" and "ensure the long-term success of our ReplayTV retail strategy". No talk yet of the cost or a lifetime/yearly option yet. Looks like TiVo might have had the right idea after all." I still want to get a 4500, but the vendor lockin with someone who's being sued by *everyone* does throw some cold water on desire for the machine.
Guess I'll be getting that Pong marathon off Kazaa...
(2,3-Benzopyrrole)
They had the correct model. Perhaps it wont be so bad-if they have a lifetime/yearly option.
Is there not a link to see the specs on this? I am little confused about the "subscription" fee part of of this article, I was not aware there was a subscription fee? Anyone have one of these that they can tell a little more about this? I have mess around with the TiVo's and for making sure you don't miss *required* television (startrek, farscape etc et al.) they are wonderful, not sure what this does that TiVo does not?
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
This new pricing model does not apply to SONICblue's current ReplayTV 4000 or to prior offerings, which will continue to include a lifetime service subscription. The ReplayTV 4000 line will end of life with the launch of the new ReplayTV 4500 series.
Hmm, doesn't that mean that your subscription would expire if you owned a ReplayTV 4000? Guess you'll be forced to get a 4500.
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Just a question. Maybe someone knows the answer. Why don't any of these Tivo-like devices just use the G-Guide listings, like new RCA TV's do? They come right over the cable--I think all PBS stations broadcast this information. There are a few ads, though.
Retailers expect a given profit margin as a percentage of the sales price. If lifetime service is bundled into the sales price, then you have to inflate the service price to cover the retailer's profit. By selling it direct to the consumer, you don't have to mark it up.
They didn't cut off my service when they replaced the 2020 with the 3030 and 3060. They didn't cut me off when they switched to the 4xxx series. I would be shocked if they decided to cut us off later, especially considering that the price of the units was essentially including a lifetime subscription fee.
It's all about profitability for SONICblue, and they're counting on long-term customers who feel better about spreading out the cost of the service versus paying up front for a lifetime subscription.
Assuming a lower cost barrier to entry and an ease of unsubscribing with no penalties, it benefits consumers to buy into this model. Consider a better, newer, faster, cheaper technology coming out in 1 year. If the consumer has paid less for the Replay 4500 + 1 year subscription than they would have invested with a lifetime-subscription Replay, they have more incentive to break away and invest in the new technology.
SONICblue's home is that they are the ones making that better-faster-cheaper technology and roping in existing subscribers to it. They may be too slow, however, as they'll also be concerned with sustaining their Replay business as well.
I predict a fleet-footed R&D-focused company will edge them out in 1-2 years on this subscription model.
This new pricing model does not apply to SONICblue's current ReplayTV 4000 or to prior offerings, which will continue to include a lifetime service subscription
Sounds to me like they plan to continue support for the 4000. End of Life does not mean that they will stop supporting it as if it never existed. It just means they will pull it from retail shelves to favor the 4500 and their new subscription policy.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Now, come on that can't be true. I mean, right here in my list of "People I'm Currently Suing" I don't even se... oh... wait, there they are. Ooops... guess you're right.
They've said nothing about the details of the pricing model. With any luck, they'll enable both modem and ethernet ports so you can get updates either way. With such a setup, they should charge a lower price for the ethernet-based updates, as they don't have to pay Earthlink (I think that's the ISP they contract with) for the dialups.
And everyone wants them to offer a lifetime subscription for those of us who hate monthly fees.
I purchased my replaytv (the old one, panasonic showstopper) from best buy when they dumped replay nation wide. The manager told me that no one was buying them, because the equivalant tivo was ~100 dollars less...of course you had to buy a subscription servive for the tivo, but joe blow average american didn' t understand that at the time of purchase, and thus picked the lower priced tivo.
This is a move that could allow sonic blue to be picked up by the national chains again...if you can't out sell them, copy their model type of thing.
btw, yes I got an awesome deal on my replaytv and love it.
Computer based PVRs are looking better and better.
Try out ShowShifter.
-twb
They'll end up just like mobile phones, it seems:
" Free phone with every packet of cornflakes!* "
*Subscription required, minimum 1 year at £15 per month
but the vendor lockin with someone who's being sued by *everyone* does throw some cold water on desire for the machine.
The lawsuits indicate a long-standing philosophical difference between TiVo and ReplayTV. When both companies released their first products (within a month of each other, I believe), ReplayTV had a 30-second skip button for instantly jumping over commercials, and TiVo said they would not include such a feature to avoid annoying the networks.
Now ReplayTV 4000 units include more consumer-friendly features that are even more annoying to the networks. They include automatic commercial skipping (the same technology found in some VCRs for detecting commercials). And once you record something, you can send it to a friend's ReplayTV unit using the Internet.
If anything, the lawsuits are a reason to get a ReplayTV instead of a TiVo. You'll be supporting a company that is pushing the best technology they can; if it forces the networks to rethink their revenue model, that's a problem for the networks to deal with.
And even if for some reason the networks win their lawsuit, all it is likely to mean is that there will be a software update to disable whatever feature the court rules is illegal.
Because I'm damn sick and tired of clueless ReplayTV users trying to tell me their DVR is better than my TiVo because they think they aren't paying for subscriptions. (That's because they paid for it up-front in the cost of the unit, but now the point is moot.)
But the the lovley folks have mirrored it :)
I will never buy any product from SONICblue again, although I already have a 3060 (and am satisfied with it as a functional PVR).
A friend of mine had a 3060 (a 60 hour replaytv) that failed. He sent it in for repair (this was after SONICblue bought replaytv). When they returned a replacement he didn't immediately open the box -- he didn't need it for a few months. When the box was finally opened, there was a 2020 (a 20 hour version - of the previous generation) inside.
When he called their support to straighten it out, they accused him of trying to swindle them. Months later, the matter still isn't resolved.
As far as them changing their pricing model - I don't care. I don't care if they go down in flames. I don't care if one day my 3060 can't connect because they've gone bust. There are plenty of competing products of equal or better capability -- so who cares if a company with crappy service disappears.
Computer-based solutions will always be a niche market. People don't want to leave their computers on all the time. People don't want to connect their computers to their home theaters. Sure, most people here think it is cool, but we're not most people.
Why would anyone buy this when there are tons of old ShowStopper and older ReplayTV units available used or open-item (I got a ShowStopper 20hr for $75 at BestBuy) for way less? They're incredibly easy to upgrade to obscenely long record times. And their service is free. I can't see any reason to buy a new unit. What additional features could they add? Is this just going to make the old "free" and upgradable models more expensive on the secondary market? Food for thought.
Love,
Jay and Silent Bob
Doesn't Rob live in Michigan?
SONICblue To Implement Service-Based Pricing Model For New ReplayTV Products; New Model Uncouples Service Fees From Retail Pricing to Better Meet Retailers' Needs
April 25, 2002 08:03:00 AM ET
SANTA CLARA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 25, 2002-- SONICblue(TM) Incorporated SBLU announced today that it will apply a service-based pricing model to new ReplayTV(R) products -- beginning with its forthcoming ReplayTV 4500 series, the next generation ReplayTV offering. Separating service subscription rates from the retail price of the ReplayTV unit, SONICblue's new pricing model will better meet the needs of national electronics retailers with lower overall costs and increased promotional opportunities.
"We intend to achieve 30% market share for digital video recorders this year based largely on our entry into mainstream retail channels," said Steve Shannon, vice president, ReplayTV product marketing, SONICblue. "The addition of new models and pricing are just a few of the changes we'll be making to ensure the long-term success of our ReplayTV retail strategy."
Further details of SONICblue's service-based pricing model will be made available when the new ReplayTV 4500 series is officially unveiled this summer.
This new pricing model does not apply to SONICblue's current ReplayTV 4000 or to prior offerings, which will continue to include a lifetime service subscription. The ReplayTV 4000 line will end of life with the launch of the new ReplayTV 4500 series.
About SONICblue Incorporated (www.SONICblue.com)
SONICblue is a leader in the converging Internet, digital media, entertainment and consumer electronics markets. Working with partners that include some of the biggest brands in consumer electronics, SONICblue creates and markets products that let consumers enjoy all the benefits of a digital home and connected lifestyle. SONICblue holds significant financial assets, global marketing capabilities and a focused technology portfolio that includes Rio(R) digital audio players; ReplayTV(R) personal television technology and software solutions; and Go-Video(R) integrated DVD+VCRs, Dual-Deck(TM) VCRs, and digital home theater systems.
Except for the historical information contained herein, the matters set forth in this press release, such as SONICblue's release of its ReplayTV 4500, implementation of the new pricing model, SONICblue's introduction of new ReplayTV models and pricing options, the ability to achieve lower overall costs and increased promotional opportunities, entry into mainstream retail channels, the intended 30% market share in the digital video recorder market, its success in better meeting the needs of the mainstream retail channel, are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially, including, but not limited to the ability of the Company to enter into licensing agreements with manufacturers, the ability of the Company, its suppliers, retailers and distributors to meet scheduled release dates, the impact of competitive products and pricing and of alternative technological advances, the outcome of SONICblue's existing litigation concerning the ReplayTV products and other risks detailed from time to time in the SEC reports of SONICblue Incorporated, including its annual report on Form 10-K for the period ended December 31, 2001. These forward-looking statements speak only as of the date hereof. SONICblue disclaims any obligation to update these forward-looking statements.
Note to Editors: SONICblue and Dual-Deck are trademarks of SONICblue Incorporated. ReplayTV, Go-Video, and Rio are registered trademarks of SONICblue Incorporated. All other products and brand names as they appear in this release are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective holders. All specifications may be changed without notice.
Contact Information:
SONICblue, Santa Clara
Tracy Perry, 408/588-8086 (Investor Relations)
tperry@SONICblue.com
or
The Bohle Company
Jason Wanacott, 310/785-0515 ext. 211 (Press)
jason@bohle.com
Hello, fellow troll/crapflooder. It appears I have to register to post. This is against my prime directive, i.e. the abhorrence of effort. Anyway, I need to take a shit now, so I will imagine crapping all over the message board, and you can too. Thanks.
If they can cut the base price of the unit, subscriptions are good in my book.
Paying £200 for a lifetime's subscription may sound good, but it's limited to the unit, rather than the user. A lower starting cost/subscription based model strikes me as a better idea as you'll be able to upgrade to something better more often.
And you're stuck with a box that isn't as good as its competitors (Tivo)
I may give ReplayTV a slight advantage over Tivo because of the Commercial Skip and File Sharing features, but without those features there is no comparison. Tivo wins by a mile
Hacker enemy #1, man! What a boner!
Dont mean to be a troll but this scares me. If commercials are made useless by this technology how will the networks make money?
If anything, the lawsuits are a reason to get a ReplayTV instead of a TiVo. You'll be supporting a company that is pushing the best technology they can; if it forces the networks to rethink their revenue model, that's a problem for the networks to deal with.
Yeah well i would rather deal with the commercals then to have to deal with commercals built into the shows... Imagine a Farscape episode with a starship with a coke picture on it.
If the in show commercals dont show up then you will have the networks trying to do the same thing the cd companys are doing and try to make the tivo like devices completely useless with copy protection... I will take the technology with the commercials im not ready to deal with tech blocking/unblocking war to start with PVRs and Networks.
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
Can you buy these things without the subscription?My point is that we have VCR's that don't need a subscription. I know how to program a VCR. I don't need a subscription that lets me choose "The Simpsons" and then does the work for me. I think I can figure out when the simpsons is on. I can press a record button also. Without a subscription service people would be able to just record whatever they wanted and then the companies wouldn't be able to track the viewing habits to sell to large media conglomerates. Does anybody make a PVR that you program yourself(like an old fashioned VCR)? without any subscription or big brother intervention?(besides your PC, of course. I'm talking about a set-top box.)
As a consumer, I'm simply not interested in any device that can be 'sued' out of existence. My VCR is ten years old, and will continue to work until the day it croaks. Even if VCRs are declared illegal tomorrow, it will sit in my house and function as long as I want.
Personally, I would not buy a device (like the Replay) that becomes a paperweight if Replay ends up on the wrong end of a lawsuit.
And let me make something clear - I have no problem with them charging a monthly fee in exchange for service - it's then my choice to decide whether their service is worth the fee.
The concern is whether they'll be around to provide that service at all. By making the device worthless without the service, they have crippled the product.
By the time you read this somebody will at your front door telling you that indeed the new subscription model is lowering the upfront cost to soothe your fears of lockin... - please sign on the dotted lin. Oh yes but you'll still get stung for the cost of the unit when the company bombs!
.sig
I totally agree with the sentiments of others, with paying subscription fees if the equipment cost is lowered. But it seems to me that gone are the days when equipment cost was cut drastically in order gain customers and revenue from service fees. A lot of cell providers are even turning away from the free phone deals of the past, or they give you a free phone so crummy you won't want to use it. Satellite providers still charge a lot of money for up-front equipment costs, trying to woo customers with programming credit to make it seem like less of a blow.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
My brother has a TiVo, and I like to play around with it when I visit him, but I haven't had the desire to own one myself. My big hangup is all the "extras" that I don't need. I just want a simple hard-drive based set-top box. Simple VCR-like functionality -- fast forward, rewind, pause. I DON'T need it to "guess" what it wants to record for me, I don't need a guide, I just want to program it like I do a VCR. Is that too much to ask for?
Do you work for the RIAA? You both seem to think the same way.
Good companies react to changes in the marketplace and adjust their models to continue to make money. Other companies try to legislate around technology and forget that you can't un-invent something. Once the technology is there, you can shove the genie back into the bottle.
The networks will have to figure out other ways to make money. Either make the ads more entertaining (so you will stop and watch them). Or something else. Just because we're comfortable with the status-quo, doesn't mean that change is bad! Embrace Change! Hug a Penguin!
Can you elaborate on this claim? I've got a Gen 1 Tivo, had one since the beginning. Its been hacked and upgraded.. I pay a subscriptions because I have to not because I want to. I never use their Network showcases or the TiVo spotlight crap.. the only thing I find useful from time to time is its ability to record shows it hypothesises you'd like; this feature is only valued when I've watched everything else I had..
I've been shopping lately and Replay's broadband sending of programs sounds swank to me, 30 sec jump, nice (although some Tivo modles can hack this one in), everything thing else is the same.. of course the lure was non-subscription.. so I guess now they are ALMOST on an even playing field.
What I'm waiting to see is when you have 120gb or greater drives in these machines, and you want to start keeping programs for longevity.. There is no aggrigation with the current file models.. no directories or tiers of shows/information. An open API from one of these bastards would be the end-all-be-all because there are never enough features and they take god awful long to code the most simply database queries into their releases.
I think TiVo is a step behind right now, but that'll always swing back and forth.. I'm just curious how they in your eyes win by a mile right now..
-M
"Life is all about strategy, mathematics and psychological perceptiveness."
http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=2001 1109
(click on the Next button to see the story unfold)
I'm turning off my +1 bonus since this is a bit of a rant. However, its a rant with some insider knowledge, so it may be worth reading. I used to work for a company that has been mentioned here on Slashdot twice. They make/made a multimedia convergence box that ran Linux and did DVD, MP3 ripping, MP3 jukebox, streaming audio and video, etc.
Our company effectively ran out of money last July/Aug./Sept. We still had partners with a major newspaper for $2M in advertising, and with a major audo components manufacturer (if you look at the box you would know whose products it looks like).
Anyway, we were looking for buyers, and SonicBlue made an offer. We accepted it, and the lawyers went into legal stuff. For months we all waited, until SonicBlue eventually pissed off our other partners so much that they walked from the deal. Needless to say, without the advertising money we were not as desirable and SonicBlue dumped us.
I guess my point is, SonicBlue is a bad company. They have a bunch of cash in the form of stock from the video card days, and they are spending it screwing up small companies (like us and the Rio Car).
I met Ken Potashner (sp?), CEO of SonicBlue. He was a whiny, slick marketer guy, may he roast in hell.
TiVo is a good company that customers can believe in. They make a good product (I have one), and they don't screw over their customers or business partners. I hope TiVo captures the whole market and SonicBlue goes bankrupt. Now that UltimateTV has been cancelled by Microsoft, it's a two horse race.
- Vincit qui patitur.
Goatse link....
Dammit moderators. Check the link.
I think this is a good thing even for the customers. My Tivo is getting ready to die, and if I had paid the 'lifetime' (the Tivo's, not mine) subscription fee, I'd be a little miffed at having to do it again when I get a new unit. I might even switch to the Moxie if it lives up to its hype, so that's another reason to prefer a monthly subscription: you can abandon it at any time if something better comes along.
Just my humble oppinion, I just wish I could get a TiVo2 without loosing my subscription and go with broadband guide downloads- so I could cancel my land line.
Oh, don't worry about the message board part. There's
a part to sign in if you agree with joe or not. That's the
part that needs to be crapflooded. No registering there either.
It's a box with video in/out that sits between my cable/satellite box and my TV. It can record 20 or so hours of video.
It is available at a reaonsable cost (say $200) with no monthly fee. Since it does not download TV listings, there should not be a recurring or one-time "lifetime" fee.
When I want to record something I press a red button on my remote. It begins recording and prompts me for a unique name to identify the segment, or I can just accept the default. (A timestamp, perhaps).
It should always be running, so I can pause what I'm watching if needed.
Finally, there should be a 'program' button. The program button allow me to record a specific channel, for a specific duration, at a certain time.
There should be some rudimentary onscreen interface to navigate the things I've already recorded or delete them.
Additionally, the onscreen interface should let me choose what I want to record from (VHS, DVD, satellite, cable, video camera) based on the multiple video inputs on the back of the device.
It does not need to be intelligent, downloading listings and automatically recording shit on my behalf. Nor should it need to be hooked up to a phone line, since there is no reason the mfr. ever needs to hear from me again, since I OWN the box. I don't have a phone line anyway, I have cellular.
As far as I know, no one sells a box like this. I believe many people would buy it, though.
I think they may have already started. I've been noticing "hiccups" in my ReplayTV 2020, mostly when recording from Fox. The hiccup lasts 2-5 seconds, and has jerky video and no audio.
Now, this could be a problem with my unit, or with my cable. I'm not sure how to diagnose it to that level. But I haven't noticed it on non-Fox shows, nor have I noticed it on the show I tape (the ReplayTV doesn't have dual tuners, and 24 and Smallville are both too good to miss ;-). (I tape Smallville, from the WB network.)
Has anyone else noticed this issue, especially with older-model ReplayTV units?
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
http://samba.org/~tridge/tivo-ethernet/
People are the problem, stop procreation now!
Now, if VA Linux/Software/Snackfoods didn't have its collective head up its ass, they'd be negotiating a deal to sell a Linux-based PVR software package to manufacturers in the Far East and Mexico.
It's called "ReplayTV."
Not for Series 1 TiVos or early Replays (ShowStoppers). Newer boxes are more broken sans subscription.
I bought a replyTV when they first came out. Now they've been bought out, and the new company is wanting to do subscriptions -- after I already paid $995 (or so) for 7 hours + lifetime subscription. I thought that meant the lifetime of the device, but now I wonder if it means the lifetime of SonicBlue's patience with Replay's old marketing scheme.I've already put up with the addition of ads instead of content on my pause button; I wonder what other changes are coming.
Of course, I could just buy a new PVR, but why? It's not like there's enough "good" TV to justify me getting on a 2 or 3 year upgrade treadmill.
Thanks, but I believe all current ReplayTV units don't work in the way described without paying a monthly fee.
"Dont mean to be a troll but this scares me. If commercials are made useless by this technology how will the networks make money?"
Product placement. You already see it happening in movies and now prominently in Survivor.
Like a gas, advertisers expand to fill the medium.
To me, your rant sounds very much like you have an axe to grind.. although you make some good points, it sounds like you have a personal vendetta against SonicBlue..
TiVo is a good company that customers can believe in
That is pretty much a matter of opinion.. let me use the words of a Tivo spokesperson (Richard Bullwinkle) to refute it:
(he's talking about hackers extracting the video from the Tivo)
Doesn't sound very much to me like a company that's concerned about their customers at all.. I can almost hear him saying "I mean, the nerve of people, trying to share something they've recorded off TV - What's next? lending video tapes to friends?"
What it comes down to (at least for me) is this: Replay has better technology, and doesn't cowtow to "content providers" at the expense of their customers. To me, that makes them a better company than Tivo
My guess is they're switching to this model so people will see it's priced the same as TIVO. Go into a store and it looks like TIVO's are half the price of replayTv's, because no one thinks about the cost of the subscription. Add the lifetime to the TiVO and it's more then the free ReplayTV.
This is what they call it. I think it is the most villianous business strategy ever. But it seems most Americans feel that a few peoples profits are more important than the environment or even than the customers satisfaction. Remember the days when the customer was always right. Now days the customer can go to hell or purchase our latest product to keep up with the "new standard". I mean how pissed would you be if you paid for the lifetime service and then had to buy a new box and subscribe to a new service cause the "standard" had changed in order to protect against piracy? Thats why I'm not in a hurry to buy the HDTV from another article I read here about the encription standard changing and making current HDTV's obsolete. I think I'm just going to move to the mountains and become a monk.
Screw you guys, I'm going home....
I never did think the "lifetime subscription" model was viable, and the 4000 is so outrageously expensive that I never seriously considered upgrading to it. But I think they've already lost the mindset to Tivo: Tivo has almost become a generic term now, in common usage. And much as I hate the user interface on Tivo, I find that it leads me to using it much more as intended and in some ways a little more convenient (if only they'd get the performance up to something reasonable!). And Tivo has one thing that I've not seen on a Replay: an integrated satellite receiver so it stores the bits off the air and doesn't have to recompress. The quality thus achieved is far better than any current Replay model. So, I think Replay is history. I hope I'm wrong, because the competition they provide is invaluable.
So tell me... how exactly is paying the fee up front (for a cost that'll probably equal about 2 to 2.5 years worth of "subscription") a better idea? You do realize that exactly what you do when you buy a Replay machine, right?
If you throw down your extra $200-$250 as part of the cost of the machine and 6 months later they're sued out of business, then what? At least with a subscription you're NOT locked in.
-S
--- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
Argh, 2 moderations up. CHECK THE FRICKIN' LINKS! Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted! Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING. Gah! Try to report this crap and SLashdot won't let me. Die, /., die...
Interesting. I see the hiccups on TNT, but not on Fox; and the hiccups are associated with artifacts that are visible (but not too objectionable) on tape.
I did have to get a powered splitter to allow my 2020 to handle some channels. Conversations with the Replay tech support guys at the time convinced me that the RF design was a little weak.
Hacking my 2020 to add an 80GB disk gave it a much-increased lifetime, but I'm wondering whether it's time for an upgrade. There are features of Tivo I like, and features of the Replay 4000 series that I like; it'll be a difficult choice.
Allen
Program listings? It just doesn't make economic sense.
Broadcasters spend billions promoting their shows. Why would they want to restrict the listing info?
Let's say we build freelistings.org. and allow pvr makers (sw and hw) to "link" their devices to it. FOX, ABC, and NBC refuse to publish on it, but PBS buys in. A few other broadcasters decide they have nothing to lose, but might gain viewers by publishing to the listing svc. Soon, advertisers wise up and demand that the programs they are sponsoring on FOX, ABC, etc. be listed on the service.
Wouldn't it just be a matter of time before all broadcasters publish the listing info in some XML based format?
They *want* us to watch, but they don't want us to know what's on? ERROR! DOES NOT COMPUTE!
The simple fact of the matter is that the 4000 series is absolutely kick ass. I recently got one for my wife and I don't know how I watched TV without it!
This past weekend I sat down with Replayer (a Java app that sucks shows off of a 4000 unit), a MPEG-2 to MPEG-1 converter, a small video editor, and Nero (the *best* CD burning software for win32) and made VCDs of all of my recorded Good Eats episodes (a great cooking show on Food Network).
It took me about 1/2 the day to figure out the process, but now that I've got it sorted out I only have to invest about 10 minutes in burning a VCD (the process takes about 3 hours in total but that's mostly in the sucking the show off of the Replay and converting it to MPEG-1)
The other thing that I haven't heard mentioned much is that people have figured out quite a bit about how the Replay's network stuff works... I know you can suck the guide off now, and I wouldn't be suprised if someone already has way to set the guide too.
Basically, if you want to get a Replay but are afraid of them getting sued into oblivion, don't worry, I am certain someone will come up with a way to read guide info... there are just too many Replay hackers out there for it *not* to happen.
Also, yes, the are expensive, but I have a real problem with subscription based services for information that I believe ought to be free. I had no problem shelling out th $800 I spent on my Replay to both get the time and space shifting I wanted and to support a company thats fighting *for* fair use.
A|Q|U|A
I hope TiVo captures the whole market and SonicBlue goes bankrupt.
Thus leaving us ReplayTV owners with a very expensive manual recording device. And what makes you think TiVo wouldn't turn to shady and deceptive buisness practices if they become the only PVR maker? Competition is not only good, it's necessary.
Actually, this has always been my view as a good way to do these subscription models. You give away the product for free as long as the customer signs up for a given period of time.
I had been looking at satellite radio (XM), but couldn't justify spending $300 or more on equipment, then having to spend $10/month to use it. Why couldn't they give you the equipment for free (or at a nice discount), as long as you signed up for 2 years, or something.
Same could go for TiVo. Give away the hardware free or at a low price, then rope the user into a contract. I think this is how DirecTV and the like do it. I always see ads for FREE DirecTV satellite with 2 year service (or something like that).
Wasn't Detroit already a police state before these laws were passed? ;)
Oh and by the way - the 20 second timer between reply and submit has GOT to be one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in my life. Thank you, I type 50 wpm, and my original statement took on the order of 3-5 seconds to kick out. Bleh.
Surprise: you can't buy them. ReplayTV is not carried in any store, and your only option is to mail-order it at a price of $700 for a 30-hour machine that requires a broadband connection to use.
By comparison, TiVo is promoting a $400 box that stores 60 hours of programs, but it lacks a commercial-skip or even a skip-30-seconds button, and it adds that $13-per-month subscription. And TiVo made the odd decision to sign an exclusive deal with Best Buy, but Best Buy won't show the unit "in use" -- all you can do is watch a canned infomercial on a fuzzy TV screen -- and Best Buy buries the thing mid-aisle (and the topper is that it's not actually in stock).
Finally, there's UltimateTV, which requires a DirecTV satellite and subscription ($48 plus tax per month is the minimum subcription, including the $32 base price, plus $6 more for local channels, plus $10 per month for the UltimateTV service). I was attracted to the $199 RCA version. Again, you can't actually see it in use -- not at Best Buy (again, you can watch a fuzzy infomercial), nor at Radio Shack (where it's not in stock anyway), nor at Circuit City (also out of stock). Call and ask UltimateTV and they'll give you a long list of other retail stores (including Wal-Mart) -- none of which actually sell UltimateTV. The most amusing call was to the Sony store at the Sony Metreon center in San Francisco -- they have never even heard of the Sony UltimateTV unit.
To their credit, Good Guys had an RCA UltimateTV unit on display, connected to a satellite and able to record two channels at once and display the (limited) picture-in-picture mode. After a few minutes, a clerk tracked down the remote control. After a few minutes, I was impressed enough to say "okay, I'll buy it." Surprise: it's not in stock, and the store has no idea when it will be back in stock.
Best Buy had a stack of units in stock (all resealed-opened boxes), but when I tried to buy one, they announced that I'd have to sign a "commitment agreement" binding myself to a minimum one year of service. Since their in-store price tags and brochures made no mention of this $400 "extra," I objected and refused to sign, and they refused to sell me the unit at ANY price. (Yeah, I could sue them since their practice is illegal, like so many other Best Buy bait-and-switch tactics -- but it's not worth the effort).
See also http://www.markwelch.com/perspective/pvr.htm (I wrote that commentary on Sunday, before I managed to see the UltimateTV at The Good Guys, and before I tried to buy it at Best Buy).
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
Have you even used Tivo? There's no comparing the two. I evaluated ShowShifter about six months ago, just because I was unsatisfied with the software that came with my ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon, and I found ShowShifter to be even worse. First of all, it doesn't record to a standard format, which means if you ever want to watch any of your shows, you have to do it through ShowShifter again. In addition, if you want to get better compression ratios by switching to a different codec, you're out of luck. There's only one format supported, and that's ShowShifter Format (.ssf, IIRC).
In addition, the evaluation period is way too short. One week wasn't enough time for me to watch a single thing I'd recorded, and since the file format was proprietary, I couldn't even watch it without paying $30.
It doesn't do any cataloguing or indexing, and makes no attempts to predict what will be on in the next day or two. That's the primary reason I like Tivo, and would be willing to pay for the service. Tivo isn't just some digital VCR where you set a timer and let it record. Tivo actually lets you tell it your favorite shows, and it does the scheduling for you. Like the Simpsons? Never miss an episode again, just tell it "season pass: Simpsons" and it does the rest.
ShowShifter, on the other hand, must be programmed manually, like your old VCR that you're starting to use less and less. Wait, that's not true. At least VCR's have VCR Plus. If you want a digital recording program, try the one that came with your TV tuner card. It's probably easier to use, has more options, and has less mickeymouse than ShowShifter.
hey you fukwads !!!! fall off michigan, its a much better place to live than you west coast idiots think.
And we have the Red Wings !!!!
Late...
Well, I DID say it was a rant. I do have a problem with SB as a company, but I wouldn't call it a vendetta. I just won't support a company that I think is so careless with the lives of other people.
([Richard Bullwinkle]'s talking about hackers extracting the video from the Tivo)
If you follow the threads with Richard (a.k.a. Tivolutionary) on the AVS TiVo forum, you know that he is the TiVo hacker's biggest advocate in the company. The fact that they added TiVoNet (ethernet) support in the 3.0 software for hackers tells you how TiVo feels about hacking their boxes.
When I worked at the company I mentioned in my last post, we encountered this as well. We managed to get a license for the Microsoft WMA and WMV codec source, which we compiled and had running on Linux. Our contract with MS basically said we had to make every effort to prevent their codecs from getting out. That is the main reason our box was locked down so tight. If we had not gone to such lengths, we could have been liable if/when our box was hacked. If not for things like that, we could have had the box more open for hackers to play with.
The quote from Tivolutionary above is talking about the legal issues that got SB sued -- which TiVo does not want to have happen to them. Sending recorded shows over the internet may really be a copyright violation, and very possibly falls outside of fair use (IANAL). Even if it doesn't, it's not a clear line one way or the other, so TiVo is being careful. That is what I'd do if it were my company.
What it comes down to (at least for me) is this: Replay has better technology, and doesn't cowtow to "content providers" at the expense of their customers.
Well, I certainly would disagree about Reply/SB having better technology. I have used both boxes, and I like the TiVo better. Yes, Replay has two specific features (sharing and commercial skip), but if those features do prove to be illegal, you can hardly blame TiVo for not having them. TiVo has some unique features as well.
If you read the AVS forums, you will see that TiVo's customers understand TiVo's choices about these legal issues very clearly.
- Vincit qui patitur.
I just wanted to comment on your mention of the Rio Car (Empeg). It's widely considered, especially from the empeg team itself, that without the cash infusion and such, they probably would have had to quietly go away long ago. Some the of the restrictive features about copying from the empeg have been lifted in recent versions of software, so, I can't really say that's a bad thing.
They needed to release a new product version, and it didn't appear that it was going to be profitable enough, so they decided to leverage the empeg software in other areas.
D-Tivo's have always gotten their guide data over the satellite feed.
And they get it continually, not just at the 2am-5am special thing. That special thing (which was added in 2.5) is a feed for software updates, Tivolution Magazine, showcases, etc.
To answer the original question, G-Guide does *not* contain anywhere nearly as much info as the Tivo downloads. You can see part of the info the Tivo gets on the Standalone by looking at a show description screen and pressing ENTER (with 2.5 or up). That's quite a chunk of data on a lot of shows.
In essence, all guide systems work based off the data from one of two providers: Tribune Media Services or TVGuide. Neither shows all the data they have on their websites. Tribune puts quite a lot of it on their website at www.zap2it.com. Some more of it (notably First Run Date) can be found thru Yahoo's online listings (which come from the TMS sources).
All that data is used by the unit for some function or another. Trying to use a different source is fine, but you will lose some functionality. Without First Run Date, for example, you lose the "first run only" recording feature.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
It may sound silly, but try your local thrift stores, pawn shops, and garage sales. It's amazing what you'll find there. Recently there was a Tivo of some flavor (don't remember) at Goodwill in West Lafayette, IN for $60. I left to get some cash, came back and it was gone. I was really bummed. But I kept looking around, and recently I got the ReplayTV ShowStopper for $75 at Best Buy. And if all else fails, go to eBay. Around $250 for the 20 hr showstopper. There are also a few online stores that still have it for around the same price. Good luck.
Love,
Jay and Silent Bob
the popularity of the credit card in america makes it clear that people would rather pay less up front even though they pay more over time. we've all done it - car payments - house payments - tivo payments - what's the big deal.
Well..SonicBlue isn't even listing the 4040 this weekend. Wouldn't you know it..this is the weekend I was going to buy one. With the 4500 announcment, I get this sick feeling we won't see the 4040 restocked
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!