Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft vs. Northwest Schools Part II
sharkey writes "Simple End User Linux (SEUL) has an article about their visit to the ACPE 2002 conference. Microsoft's visit to the conference is outlined, as well as the school districts' attitude towards GPL software and migration issues. An interesting follow-up to an earlier Slashdot article."
May be a different country, but the economics and usability issues are very similar indeed:
Wired talks about it, and there's a lot more info over on Google.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
"The #2 fear facing schools is the thought that teachers will not be able to use the software. No one is worried about the kids."
nuff said.
Awesome!
In our district we have God control over our machines and dictate all hardware and network decisions, but even then have had to give some leeway on software installs for political issues.
;)
I prefer to take a more hands-on approach and use "root", rather than a third-party administration product of dubious reliability, scalability, and quality.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
Seems to me that they might be open to Open Source as well. Especially since people get confused and mistake Seattle, the Emerald City of truth and light, for Redmond, where the Dark Lord dwells ... ok, so he's really in an adjacent place, but it's still across the giant Lake Washington that's bigger than Seattle is.
There are some firms, Adobe for example, which are more than helpful in donating software and helping with tech problems - they have done a lot for B.F. Day public school in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle where they're located. Microsoft seems to go between extremes - sometimes they're helpful, other times they're harmful.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
This is and old and known MS business strategy. They let their softs spread freely and then demand license regularization. Companies around the world used to have no alternative but to pay thousands of dollars on licenses because mass migration is expensive, user training on new OS is expensive and many other things. Even thou some years ago linux already existed it was not a so viable alternative, so companies, even knowing Windows is not the best OS out there, stick to it.
:))
It is pretty good to see that this is changing. Microsoft tried to do this but now there is an alternative out there and that alternative is pretty strong and robust. It is good to see that even thou MS is a large company it cant do business like it did years ago because it is not the ONLY out there.
Way to go!!!
Fabio - Sumare/Sao Paulo/Brazil/South America/Earth/Solar System/Milky Way/Universe
http://www.morroida.com.br
They love to scare you into thinking they're going to press charges and levy fines, but it's just a good-cop, bad-cop routine -- the second the outrage hits, they're a different company; flexible and understanding.
At that point we're supposed to believe MS is a big cozy teddy bear and really wants to help. They've done this more times than I can remember. It's time to walk away from them and not look back...
People shape laws. Not the other way around.
2. Committed volunteers. As the article points out, the LUG was a big help. One of the cool things about the open source community is the freedom and diversity of work. But a pitfall is that it is not organized around a single goal like a corporation. If the Linux community said (i.e., leaders said), we are committed to getting all public schools onto free software and keeping them going, make that your priority, what amazing things could be accomplished? Instead many people would rather work on their own, probably less important projects. I love working on my own stuff just for the fun of it, but there comes a time to put down your own agenda and dig ditches for a greater goal.
I think one of the biggest barriers to getting Linux installed at schools is the lack of software targeted at secondary-school teachers and students. I'm working on writing an open-source, Java-based gradebook application (still in initial stages, so there's no project homepage yet), and I'd really like to see people writing things like gradebooks, educational games, and the like.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
This is exactly the problem that schools face. They are looking at options, but except for an initiative at red hat, there is not a strong, coordinated effort from the linux community. Schools are over burdened and cannot afford somebody who is really good to come in and do the right thing. The schools don't need a flock of geeks, they need consistent, reliable support.
Believe nothing -- Buddha
Quoting, "We never had any idea that there would be a reaction like this. Our two words for today are friendly and flexible."
That is exactly the problem. They don't try to decide if it's good or ok or ethical, they try to decide if they can get away with it. If they don't forsee money loss they don't see any reason not to do it.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
The problem is that Microsoft's licensing requires the schools to decide NOW, and then locks them up for years. (Right in the middle of finals.) The same is true for their corporate licensing. They have to decide NOW and then are locked up for years.
Desktop Linux isn't quite ready. It's getting close. That's why Microsoft is forcing them to decide NOW. And it isn't really a decision now. Maybe even in a few months. But, of course, Microsoft is forcing them to decide NOW and commit to years.
So they have to choose between Office and Star Office NOW, (and that means 5.2, but even 6 isn't QUITE right.) Or gobeProductive, which is really great on Windows, but isn't QUITE ready on Linux yet, and there isn't enough time to do a proper evaluation anyway. So they have no choice, really, except to commit to Office.
So it's just another monopolistic extortion scam from the company with $40 billion cash in the bank. You'd think that the corporations that are the victims of this licensing scam would recognize what they have unleashed by putting Bush into ofice. Or you'd think that the municipalities with the school districts would be talking to their members of Congress. Education was suyppose dto be the big Republican thing, right? But the first thing Bush did was free up Microsoft do go after --- other corporations and school districts! Is this really the kind of country they wanted when they coughed up all that cash to put Bush in office?
As a high school technology teacher, I'm probably more incensed over the way M$ is trying to blackmail the education system than those who aren't involved in education, as I see first-hand the struggles involved with trying to integrate very inflexible software into the education system. But I'm also a taxpayer in the school district I teach in, and it makes me angry that our school district has also chosen to be a whore to the M$ brothel.
There's a related article over at The Register which exposes yet another nefarious plan by M$ to fleece the public: They are proposing licenses on a per computer or per FTE basis, without regard to whether computer or person runs, installs, or is in any way associated with M$.
I think it would be interesting if those who are sickened by these business tactics were to request from their school districts those EULAs and agreements which govern the use of software in the district. As a taxpayer, you're entitled to this information: If they won't give it up willingly, then surely it can be acquired via an FOIA request (in the states). I know our district has used passage of a $36 million bond issue to outfit our 50,000-student district with more M$ products...exactly what is not needed.
I plan on requesting our district's EULAs through official channels first, then through FOIA channels as a taxpayer. The reason why this situation exists in the first place is the failure of the taxpayers to monitor how their money is being spent.
They did a great job of disarming the most worried school folks and then hosted an open bar for the rest of the afternoon.
I think that says it all.
Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
It's kind of a sad statement about American schools when one is more worried about teachers learning something than their students. And we trust our kids to these idiots?
I don't know about every university, but where I went, the faculty of education had the lowest minimum requirements for entry.
What's the difference?
Best Slashdot Co
Flame me all you want, but Microsoft reacted the way that any business would when confronted with angry customers. Sun, IBM and others would have reacted in the same manner if they were in MS's shoes.
Never underestimate the power of bad customer support or angry customers!
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
That's mighty impressive. There's a lot of awfully good people in the Linux world. With a sense of community and pride like they have, who knows what they'll have accomplished in a few years time.
It makes me think. How can Mercenary programmers working for corporations possibly compete with those doing it for the love of the game?
I'm not a 100% Microsoft hater, but it's hard to see them vanquishing a determined, diversified foe like this (who doesn't have to make a profit to continue fighting.) I'm betting my future skill training on Linux. They're absolute berserkers on the OS battlefield!
Hand me that stack of O'Reilly books.
----
Slogan-free since April! We pass the savings on to you!
Great idea! Anyone know of any LUGs in Northeastern Ohio (other than the Greater Cleveland PC Users Group)?
Erm, if you were a school administrator, you could likely spell "tyrant".
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
I suggest that K-12 schools get together and lobby congress for a software exemption similar the the following one for sheet music. Problem solved. I can just imagine the tightened sphincters at M$
..." 17 USC 110
"[T]he following are not infringements of copyright:
(1)performance or display of a work by instructors or pupils in the course of face-to-face teaching activities of a nonprofit educational institution...
(2) performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work or display of a work, by or in the course of a transmission,
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
And I do mean really serious, then one place where the Portland Linux/Unix Group is collecting information is here. I am still waiting for them to contact me, but I am certainly willing.
It hasn't been mentioned in the article, nor in this discussion so far as I can see...but is nobody aware that the computer maker that sells more boxes to the educaton market is Apple?
I realize that many in the slashdot crowd see any solution other than free/oss ones as inherently evil...and that companies with these solutions are engaged in nothing short of extortion and theft...but c'mon. Isn't one of the best options for these schools to simply buy more Macintoshes? Of course it is!
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
[They] said a lot about understanding the hardships schools face and how we were hurting for funding.
Yeah, right.
TCLUG.
www.mn-linux.org
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Take a look at GLUE:
http://www.ssc.com:8080/glue/
Hope that helps
You are correct. Unfortunately "any business" doesn't have monopolistic power, either. The reason we have laws against monopolies is to prevent business from applying normal business practices in a competitive vacuum.
-Sean
It's interesting that Microsoft's auditing process is acting as a catalyst to mainstream linux awareness and possible adoption at the public school level.
Isn't someone going to quote Princess Leia? ("The more you tighten your grip..." )
I must be at the wrong website.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
http://www.linux.org/groups/
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
Perhaps Microsoft is learning something from their interaction with NW school districts. Even better yet: It appears that school districts have learned something too.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
I just moved into my town a little over two years ago, and learned shortly after moving in that the School District had just launched a major effort to completely overhaul their IT infrastructure. The bill was enormous as the district opted for MS products across the board.
Interestingly enough, it turned out that the guy in charge of the whole implementation, was one of my best friends. A truly brilliant guy, he has always been firmly entrenched in the world of Novell and Microsoft. When I told him, that they really should be looking at Linux for the file, print, and web services he immediately began to recite so much recycled FUD I thought I was talking to Bill Gates himself. Myself and another friend of mine spent hours debating Linux and other open-source solutions, and in the end he conceded some points, but was still largely unmoved.
Well, to make a long story short, he called me last night to tell me that the bill for the School work was getting a little too high for their budget, and they were shopping around for vendors with some Linux experience. His boss, who's even more Pro-MS, told him that they can't lose this contract and that someone needs to "ramp-up" on Linux fast.
We install Linux on his box tomorrow! When it comes to the education market, cost is king.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
It's a basic principle of business - and also, strangely, con artists - you're better off taking a little off your customer/mark over a long period, maintaining a positive relationship for an extended period, rather than taking them for all their worth once and never hearing from them again. You want them coming back, asking for the privilege of handing you more money.
In the business world this is of course, achieved through providing quality products at a fair price acompanied by good customer service.
In a con game, this is achieved through convincing your mark that you are acting in his best interest, and if that deesn't work you can always try threats and extortion.
Microsoft seems to have made a business decision that it is more cost effective to derive funds through threats and extortion rather than by providing a quality product. Before you dismiss this as being an overbroad accusation, consider the following.
In the early 1990s Steve Balmer was quoted as saying that "Software Piracy is a critical part of Microsoft's Business", the reasoning being that if those who couldn't afford Microsoft products, pirated them and their use of the software increased their efficiency in business and otherwise, they would become more profitable both personally and in business and be able to afford to pay for upgrades to the software, so Microsoft would proffit through a somewhat obscure customer aquisition technique.
In the Mid 1990s the BSA began to take major steps to try and curb software piracy through various threats and lobying for new anti-piracy legislation.
Then, in the late 1990s and now, Microsoft has become dissatisfied with collecting from those who illegally use their software. Now they are seeking out organizations who use their software legally, and have always acted in good faith, singling them out, causing them expense and time which they can not afford, above and beyond that which they have already budgeted to legally purchase the software in question.
Is it really a suprise that these faithful customers are now objecting and seeking other alternatives? No. I think not.
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
One of the big issues isn't running Linux, but using all of that already-paid-for Windows educational software.
...).
The performance of WINE is going to be a major lever in moving schools to Linux. If it can be shown that they can use most or all of their existing, paid-for (proprietary) software like Reader Rabbit, Carmen Sandiego, etc. then the migration will be that much easier.
Yes, GNU software is better. However, trying to get them to jump 100% from what they ahve to GNU is going to have one major speedbump -- and it will be made from the pile of existing software that they paid for and still works.
Step #1 is removing Windows, MS Works and MS Office and replacing them with Linux and OpenOffice (or KDE Office, or Gnome Office, or
Another step would be a good, reliable list of Windows Educational software and how it works on WINE. (Heck, most of it is still Win 3.1 compliant!)
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
The next day MS went back to their usual two words, monopolistic and hostile.
As the IS Manager for a K-12 school system that uses Linux for our main servers, I really see the advantage of it over NT. Also, I can see using KDE + Mozilla + Star/K/Abi Office for business classes and office PCs. The problem is what do you use to replace all the curriculumn and remediation software like Plato, Abacus, Destinations, Accelerated Reader/Math, STAR Reader/Math, etc.? There aren't any open-source or Linux-based alternatives that I'm aware of.
On the school office side, what do you use to replace SASI/Pentamation/WINSchool/etc.? for student management, grades, attendance, etc.? What do you use in the libraries to replace Follett?
These are all questions that need to be answered before many school systems would even consider switching. Until there is a good answer for all of them, it isn't feasible to switch away from Microsoft and/or Apple.
Jason
"FORMAT C:" - Kills bugs dead!
As a low-level admin at a K12 district, I was pushing Linux, to what appeared to be deaf ears, until a couple of events took place, which sparked a renewed interest in Linux. As a result, we now have one of our webservers, two firewalls, and a proxy server all running Linux. And I can say that as a direct result of:
1) The greatly improved security and performance of the machines when Win2K server was wiped from them in favor of Linux, and
2) The action up in Portland, and Microsoft's generally jackbooted-thug-like behavior toward schools right in the middle of a major budget crisis
We will be headed more and more toward OSS in general and Linux in particular. And our district is by far not the only one. I hear from the other local districts and guess what? They are doing the same thing.
M$ has shot itself in the foot. It is possible that they can get some educators drunk at a conference and buy a little forgiveness, but how many people do you think were there in the context of how many people are dealing with Microsoft audits now? Not too many. And when Microsoft alienates the education market, they don't just piss off some administrators: if and when those administrators migrate some or all of their services and equipment to OSS, the effect inevitably trickles down to the students being educated in that district. The last thing Microsoft wants is for high school students in the process of making college choices to see the superiority of OSS to their own crufty product, and make decisions based in part on that information. But that is just what is happening. So the events going on right now will have ramifications well into the future. Count on it.
political_news.c: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
Sure they can afford more PR hits. Come on. They're Microsoft. Do you really expect a few PR hits to have any significant effect in the face of overwhelming advertising power and market dominance over most (admittedly mostly clueless) users? These people have come to expect PR hits and controversy as part of the industry. "That's just how it works." Microsoft wouldn't want to raise their expectations, now would they?
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
They're saying that they're not worried about the kids because they don't care, they're saying that they're not worried about the kids because kids can adapt VERY easily to new software.
Even with M$ software, it's frequent that the kids are teaching the teachers. My old high school is one such example... Even the head of our business department (The guy who ran the network) was outshone by a number of students.
What set him apart from the technical director for the district was that he at least knew what his limits were, and could accept the fact that he was best off accepting help from his students than trying to restrict them. On the other hand, the technical director for the district killed half the computers in the school by doing a mass upgrade to Win98 - Without testing it on one machine first.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I guess with all the classes they have to take on child-psychology, learning patterns, and other specialized classes that actually enable them to be *TEACHERS* as opposed to someone who talks to themself in the front of a room - they never had the time to take 'Widows Guru class 405'.
.. for example .. an english teacher would be all over windows .. but not assume .. for another example .. someone with an MBA is ?
.. do a little research .. if your Highschool had a computer lab when you we're there .. your in a better place than like 60-70% of the US .. let alone other countries.]
.. or a new computer with m$ whatever on it .. the windows take priority.
.. if your lucky enough to be in a school system that accepts outside volunteer work .. normally the union doesnt stand for that.
.. so they could acutally USE computers that were donated to them .. but was refused becuase of union protests.]
Why would one naturally assume
Thats just assanine. Teachers are just like every other cross section of society. Younger ones have more access/usage/knowledge of computers, and older ones less.
Just because someone is the bastion of education doesn't mean they have had the time and or desire to learn something that 70% of them don't use in their daily lives.
[and before you go off on how all schools have computers
when it comes to paying $1500 for new windows per classroom
you could always be construtive and offer to HELP your local school teachers learn windows
[i offered to wire my wife's school with cat-5
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
You just described a site license: you have the right to install as many copies of windows as you want in your company/school. Microsoft won't sell that though, they will sell one license per comptuer, which is not the same. (with a site license up to so many seats, if you can prove that some machine runs linux it doesn't count)
Of course since it is impossibal (for practical purposes) to buy a PC without windows today, I think they have a good arguement in court "I'd like to call to the stand Mike Dell who will testify that this model of comptuer was never sold without windows".
They would still have to license Office. Linux really is the answer.
So they have to choose between Office and Star Office NOW, (and that means 5.2, but even 6 isn't QUITE right.) Or gobeProductive, which is really great on Windows, but isn't QUITE ready on Linux yet, and there isn't enough time to do a proper evaluation anyway.
So how much time is Microsoft giving them to do an evaluation of XP before they have to sign on? Or of the next version of Office? The license they are pushing is for future versions of products. This will be even more explicit with the upcoming subscription model: You will have no opportunity to evaluate upcoming products before your existing installed base is declared obsolete.
This is the same FUD as the user training issue. "We can't move off of Windows because we'd have to retrain all our users." But they all moved from Win3.1 to Win95 didn't they? Does anyone really believe the difference between (for instance) KDE3.0 and Win2K is greater than that? In short, don't apply a higher standard to the Linux offering thatn to the Windows offering.
Nope, no sig
I'm from the TriCities Linux Users group in Richland, WA, a mere 3 hours down the road.
I will gladly volunteer my time to this project. Not Just weekends. Not just a couple of hours here and there. I'm a unix system administrator with about 5 years of solid linux experience. I have experience in educational systems (I learn and admined linux at a university).
Please contact us. Our mailing list can be found at www.3clug.org.
I might suggest you see if there are volunteers from the OSDL (Open Source Development Lab) right there in Portland.
I would also suggest a good leader for this. This is going to be a lot of "heads" arguing back and forth, and having a "this is the way it's gonna be guy" is gonna work best.
You will have the people to do it. Just ask. We will save your school district money. We will make it work. You will not feel forced into a companies bottom line ever again.
--Doug Nordwall
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Thats what they are in school for.
Teachers on the other hand, their job is to teach, you cannot properly teach something you dont know yourself. Teachers need to be trained.
I worked as an instructor in the school system teaching computers when i was still a student.
The students CAN be the teachers if they need teachers so bad. The students can also TRAIN the teachers.
However my school was small (less than 100 students)
In a big school, Its not as realistic
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Their first move was to appear sorry, smooth over the tense situation then, MEET WITH EACH SCHOOL ONE ON ONE.
Diffusing the group is their primary objective. Once this is done, they can continue to manupulate the ones in charge into bad contracts.
PR 101 in action here, I am surprised that these two did not see it coming.
Blogging because I can...
If I were you, I would write my applications with the Schools Interoperability Framework in mind, so that it can communicte with other programs run by schools.
Do you have a source for that? I have long thought it was obvious that MS profited from piracy, probably deliberately, but it would be nice to have unassailable proof of that.
I think this paragraph is key. These schools need GOOD support. No Linux zealots, or computer snobs, or holier-than-though attitudes, for Linux to WIN (slight pun intended) in the school systems.
People like that never get any work done. I don't see any of them volunteering.
It's been a long time.
This is the real issue: the power microsoft has over you, once you start using their software (and agree to their license in doing so). It's not about Microsoft selling bad software that crashes, it's not about the price of the software in the shop, it's about the price you pay later, when you have to rely on Microsoft to alter their software, when Microsoft presses the rights the license gives them, and when you realize that because of undocumented formats your own documents are yours no longer.
The arguments of that peruvian congressman apply in a much broader sense: it's not only states who can't afford to be subjected to the whims of just one corporation. Also his argument considering costly migration is valid here too: if migration is costly now, well, it will only get worse later, and the more you depend on microsofts continued service, the more they can demand for it.
And finally the schools should realize, that while Microsoft may be nice about it now (in face of an unexpected reactions) the license gives them the right to repeat the exercise any time they want, only then they will probably pick one school after the other (divide and conquer). They are at the mercy of MS, and will continue to be so, as long as they use their software.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
I remember back when I was in school we had big problems with comptuers. Seems both the macs and the PCs were single user systems, and so students would regularlly, and intentionally change something on the local disk. (the stupid ones just deleted something critical, the "smarter" ones changed something subtile that you didn't even notice for a while. Remember, these are teens going through the worst years of their life from an honesty standpoint.
Linux by contrast was designed from the ground up to be a multi-user system. Give someone a login, and they get access to their files, and only their files. They can run programs, but only the ones allowed by the administrator. (it is fairly easy to mount home noexec, and move programing students to a different disk)
I graduated in 93, so win3.1 was the latest windows, and the macs were m68k. things have advanced some (windows 95 is a little better for multi-user, but it still sucks compared to linux when you cannot trust the users)
Remember, these are students, not employees. They are immature, and untrustworthy. (I wasn't, and I was one of the more honest students)
As mentioned in the article, the biggest concern about Linux in schools is support. Somehow, I don't think telling them that Larry over at the local LUG said he'd help out if you run into trouble would go over too well with the administration (assuming the debate even gets this far). It would seem that if there were an organization like the AAA that offered emergency support, training opportunities, and instructional publications all for a low annual fee, regardless of what kind of Linux boxes/boxen you have or where you got them, a lot of the reluctance to switch to Linux would be removed. (I know that there are some small companies that do this sort of thing, or at least there were during the .com boom, but I'm thinking of more of a LUG-for-hire outfit.) With the current situation in the Northwest, the stage seems set for a few of these organizations to spring up, eventually merging into a single nationwide Linux support organization. Anyone have any venture capital they need to get rid of?
There are several factors that have lead up to the current state of affairs for most school systems, take mine for example.
In the school district where I live (and my kids go to school) the "kids" were bringing in bootable linux systems on CD, and finding machines hooked up to the admin side of the network. They would boot the CD and start to poke around the network. This caused a panic in the school system, and county networking group.
The school system and county do not have the budget to hire top gun network people with innovative ideas and a fresh perspective. They try to do the best they can with what they got, and meet the needs of an ever expanding requirement to provide everything to everybody.
Some teachers have been doing thiner jobs for a long time, many teachers are not technical by nature. They are capable of learning, but not inclined to. When was the last time that the majority of readers of this site felt inclined to learn a new skill (that you had no interest in) because it was forced upon you as a job requirement.
Some of the "kids" in these places could setup and maintain the Linux systems they need, but the problem is that most lack the maturity to be trusted with critical infrastructure, and there is a lack of qualified staff to supervise thier activities.
So what you end up with is an overworked paranoid staff the sticks with what they know, teachers that are not computer literate (though no fault of their own) and kids that probably know more about warze and Hac0r t00lz then the staff dreams in their worst nightmares.
It comes down to money! If the schools want modern technical systems, they need to have money to do it. You want teachers that are qualified to teach and be computer literate, salaries have to be raised, plain and simple.
MS squeezes blood from the turnip because they are the least common denominator in this equation and they can.
The road to open source in the school system will long and hard fought. MS has a lot more smarts then we are giving them here so do not count them out just yet.
The phrase "They said that they would meet with schools one on one to extend deadlines and be flexible" is exactly how they cut the legs off of every opponent who stands between them and more money.
They do it one client at a time, on their own schedule, at their own convenience and without anyone being able to tell anybody else of what "deal" they got.
This is a company that doesn't publish a price list, remember?
How does any single school know how good a deal they got? They don't.
And being one school places them in a bad bergaining position. Certainly far worse than if they could ALL meet M$ and, uh, negotiate.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
It's their business to screw every last penny out of their customers - after all they have a monopoly.
This is why any sanctions placed on Microsoft will simply continue their dominance.
Deleted
If OS X learns to play nice with Linux a school could deploy a network of Linux boxes and eMacs and use a lot of the same software on both... an eMac with XDarwin should be able to run all of the software on the Linux boxen (after a recompile).
That way a school could use cheap linux boxes in labs and use eMacs for the school paper and art classes and other places where proprietary software is needed.
It would be a good idea for Apple to team up with Red Hat and come up with a plan for a Linux/Mac system that would allow schools to keep using thier old intel hardware.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Why did Microsoft shoot its self in the foot? It is because they realize they are a monopoly. They need to boost profits some so they decide to audit the schools. The schools have to pay up since they are the only real business in town (monopoly thinking!).
They were suprised to find out that the schools were willing to consider other alternatives.
(They also would like a big long contract to lock in the schools for a long time, but because of monopoly thinking they went about it the wrong way.)
It is an extremely one sided system- as they unethically designed it to be (1). As many have pointed out, the system is set up to make you feel you cannot possibly fight it, given the unacceptable risk if you lose.(2) However, if you can find other cases where people have fought, and you see how they did it, you might have hope.
People need to know how bad it is for schools. Example: Slashdot on Microsoft / BSA vs the LA School District, (3) where "hundreds" of unlicensed copies were found. the threat was $150,000 fine for each copy of a $100 per license product. ($100 at best. 1/3 was MSDOS, and schools get very good rates). They "negotiate" down to a $300,000 total fine, and the school district probably felt very grateful for this kindness of the BSA.
This is a 150,000% fine negotiated down to a 1,000% fine. (or 1,500x down to 10x). How does the BSA get to levy fines so out of proportion to actual damages? Yes, illegal copies are a crime (as is speeding), but the LAUSD wasn't running a mass piracy operation. Assuming that "hundreds" = 500 copies found, then the LAUSD had found roughly 1 copy per school, or 1 copy per 120 employees. The BSA got to treat the LAUSD as if it had found widespread felonious behavior rather than a few years worth of a few people deliberately or mistakenly making copies. No proof of bad intentions needed.
Extraordinary fines should require extraordinary proof, but instead the BSA has you do all the work, and even if you are entirely innocent you can still get hit. Unless a mistake can cause extraordinary harm, you don't usually get to treat mistakes like a felony! What makes the BSA so special? They get to threaten fines in line with fines for damage to life and health. Is software piracy that much worse than discharging toxic substances into waterways (max fine $125,000)? Misbranding a drug in interstate commerce (max fine $100,000)? Violating the Sherman Antitrust Act (the fine listed in Section 3571 (d) is "not more than the greater of twice the gross gain or twice the gross loss" caused by the conduct...)?
The LAUSD is not a happy ending story- but this current story might be. A collection of all cases like it would be useful for anyone just receiving a dreadful BSA / Microsoft letter. The site should be part of a high-Google-rank site, so that it is easy to find (for non-technical folks). The database should also have easy to find links to all user groups, by geographical areas, so that anyone can quickly get advice / quotes / support.
(1) Because a good ethical system (think Categorical Imperative) includes consistency in applying rules. The BSA would never accept their rules applied to themselves: imagine a Software Consulting Association sending audit letters out checking for late payments to consultants. If you've paid a consultant more than 30 days late, you get fined 150,000% of the daily rate.
(2) You'll fight a traffic ticket because you can afford to lose. What if the original ticket was $100,000, with a "negotiated" fine of $1,000? This is extortion, not a negotiation- you'll accept whatever the court says. Not to mention if *you* had to show that you didn't speed, even a little bit, and lack of evidence = proof of guilt. And it took a minimum of 5 days in court and they get to dismantle your car and replace equipment to test its maximum speed! That is what these audits are: time consuming and they can place programs on your system.
(3) Also see Inside the BSA (2/02)
I'm wondering why we even need computers in grades K-6. I can't really see how it helps the learning process; I and generations before me did just fine without computers (the first classroom computer in our school came when I was in the 6th grade).
I can understand giving the teachers computers for tracking grades, lesson planning and such, but I think it is not appropriate to use it as an educational tool for young children.
One should learn to do basic skills -- reading, writing, arithmetic, social skills, arts -- without the use of computers. You will get a much deeper understanding this way; you will be able to solve problems much quicker.
I think it is ridiculous that grade schoolers are being made to write reports using computers. Perhaps using the internet for research is OK, but with a computer the student doesn't learn spelling, grammar, or penmanship because the comptuer does it all for him. Use the computer as a reasearch tool, but write the final report by hand. You can't learn to write by typing.
Once you learn these basic skills, then (and only then) should you use the computer. Granted, when I was that age, computers weren't widely available, but we weren't allowed to use calculators until algebra, and typing was prohibited until you were an upperclassman. If the teacher couldn't read your handwriting, well, that was YOUR problem and you got an F.
A computer is a tool, but we're teaching our kids to use them for crutches because we're too lazy to teach them how to do things for themselves.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
I browse at 2+, so your reply showed up as being in direct response to the guy's 5 post, not the 1 post to which you actually responded. Someday I will learn to always hit the parent link before responding to a reply...
I still think my second point applies. Children will not form strong opinions in response to facts unless they see their role models:
a) evaluating facts
b) expressing strong opinions about them
In general, people don't evaluate facts, and don't form strong opinions. They have to be taught to do so. If the teacher were telling the students 'have the same opinion as me or I will fail you' or even telling the children 'have this opinion', I have a big problem with that. Telling them "these are the facts, and they lead me to this strong opinion" is a good thing.
I don't see him saying he indoctrinates them. He informs them of MS marketing practices that he thinks are bad, and tells them he thinks they're bad. In my experience, teachers like that respond well to arguments against their positions.
In the county where I live and attended school, when computer science classes where first offered, they were taught by a handful of math teachers. Most of them did not have a background in programming or designing a computer science curriculum, yet they took the classes and taught them the best they could.
Unfortunately, they quickly gravitated to Visual Basic. The reason one stated to me is that it was an easy language for him to pick up, and it allowed the students to see quick results.
Now, the majority of the local school systems are solidly entrenched in Visual Basic as the primary tool that's used in all the high school computer science classes.
I recently ran into one of my old teachers, and I brought up the subject of Linux and open source software. He had no interest in even discussing it. He says there are plenty of VB sites on the Net with source code provided, and that Linux will never be be an option in the school system because he can't run VB on it. End of discussion. He even started to get a little hot-tempered with me when I tried to tell him about Kylix and some Borland products that were available for Linux.
These teachers all have the ear of the school board. And they seem to speak with a united voice in favor of Microsoft, regardless of price.
So, if the Justice Dept. hadn't settled, they could've gotten a restraining order on Microsoft's sales division? Jesus, people. Not everything in this country revolves around Microsoft.
No, but when one is discussing Microsoft's behavior, it is not at all unreasonable to point out that the Dept. of Justice's new willingness to let Microsoft off with a slap on the wrist and effectively snatch defeat from the jaws of victory to the benefit of of a convicted monopolist (with said conviction holding up on appeal), has obviously had a detrimental effect on deterring Microsoft from unethical behavior of this kind...which the suit was effectively doing for a number of years even prior to the initial judgement.
Microsoft's gloves really didn't come off until after it was clear they had successfully bought the current administration, and the DOJ, off and would effectively walk away scottfree, criminal conviction notwithstanding.
So, while the world does not revolve around Microsoft, this story, and this discussion, certainly do, and contrary to your implication, the comment you responded to was not at all out of line, or out in left field, in pointing out how the government's new unwillingness to enforce the law against a convicted monopolist has encouraged the sort of strong-arm tactics we have been reading about, and discussing, here.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I don't see him saying he indoctrinates them. He informs them of MS marketing practices that he thinks are bad, and tells them he thinks they're bad. In my experience, teachers like that respond well to arguments against their positions.
Do you still feel that way if the teacher "informs" them that Microsoft produces the best software in the industry, and that's all anyone should ever use? Or "informs" them that Open Source software is used for criminal hacking, and that it should be avoided? Or that OSS is generally inferior to Microsoft?
And again, I have to ask: Is it therefore OK for a teacher to give their personal "opinions" about religion and the fact that everyone is going to hell that is not a Christian?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I'd think the public school community would be much more open to, and used to working with the community, and user groups, than say leaders of big business.
It fits with their model of parent participation.
Dumbass, it's the schools that are hurting for money. Learn english and grow a brain you linux-loving fag.
Wow, I've been called a fag and linux-loving, but never in the same sentence. Anyway, It was you that was confused, not I. I was laughing at microsoft's expressions of understanding, not questioning whether they were hurting for money....
-Sean
If this was really true, the article wouldn't be discussing choices and how they could move over to them. It also wouldn't explain why Microsoft appears to be very afraid any time someone suggest moving away from Windows.
Think about it... Or don't. I really could care less.
So it's just another monopolistic extortion scam from the company with $40 billion cash in the bank. You'd think that the corporations that are the victims of this licensing scam
Great post until this point. MS is aggressive, but they're aggressive in collecting fee's that the school system OWE's them. No one has the right to steal anything, not even schools (especially considering that schools get Windows+Office combo licesenses at a huge discount - something like $20-30 per box). This is like saying that the major publishing corporations are commiting extortion scams by requiring schools to pay for their books.
You mention Office and Star Office. I say the schools look at Mac OS X as OS X is not only a great desktop for schools but it also comes with Appleworks. Appleworks may not be a full blown office suite, but it's simple elegance easily outweighs the bells and whistles found in other programs.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
...unless your aim is to manipulate them into position as fodder for some other world domination scheme.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
No, more corporate cash did not go to Gore. I think it was about 2/3 to the Republicans.
Excuse me? Please provide a source for the '2/3' number - this is highly dubious, and I suspect you're making it up. Are you aware Al Gore's OIL company just bought one of Enron's interests in the Middle East? The Democrats play the moneygrubbing big-bidness game quite well, thank you.
After the election Gore was trying to get a recount, but the Supreme Court voted 5 to 4 to stop the recount. Those 5 were all Republican appointees.
The supreme court vote to HALT THE RECOUNT was 7-2, the 5-4 vote to decide whether they would adhere to Florida law in requiring all recounts to be completed by December 13th.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
I've been trying to dig up the original source for some time. I read it in an AP Wire story carried in a local paper in CT in the summer of 1994 (I think). Aparently the original source was a Harbard Business School research paper, although I have not had the opportunity to search it out. I intend to when time allows. It really is a vary interesting and streight-forward concept that he was pointing out.
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Of course, this is true in the advancement of any technology. As adoption becomes more widespread, a small, elite group of experts grows to maintain what's "under the hood." That expression alone is enough to illustrate. Automobiles: who knows how to fix these besides mechanics and serious hobbyists? A/C systems, timing, hydraulic systems, electrical systems, emissions controls...
Though your point is taken. People get dependent on the convenience of technology interfaces. That's why they exist. What evolves is a multitiered group of experts, some of whom can service the deepest, most complex problems, others of whom can only make things work if the tools help them.
When I was on an airplane once, the guy next to me said, "You're in computers? I'm majoring in computers at Florida State. Do you think I should go into Excel or Wordperfect?" I kid you not. That was the end of our discussion (mostly because I hate to talk on airplanes, but...)
As to "quality of education," I think high schools should focus on the basics skills that go into programming: logical approaches to problems, automation of simple tasks, procedural programming, object-oriented concepts. I think they should not get too deep into specifics of things like network admin, web development, etc.--that's better left to the vocational schools and JCs/community colleges/OTJ training. Instead, those make good independent-study project areas for the really motivated students. This way, instruction is kept at an achievable level for instructors, kids get the basics that school should teach them, and they can get "advanced" education through college courses during the summer or at night or via correspondence if they really want/need it.
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
Listening to Rush Limbaugh can get you embarrassed if you try to go out in public and repeat the stuff he feeds you.
The Supreme Court vote to halt the recount was 5-4. Al Gore's MOTHER inherited $250,000 of Occidental stock, a minute fraction of the company, but what does this attempt at character assasination have to do with ANYTHING?
2000 corporate contributions:
Republicans: $201,484,694
Democrats: $143,617,773
Top 10 Republican corporate donors:
AT&T $2,302,451
Philip Morris Cos Inc 2,098,922
Bristol-Myers Squibb Co 1,518,019
Natl Rifle Assn 1,455,187
Enron Corp 1,433,850
Pfizer Inc 1,398,592
Freddie Mac 1,383,250
Microsoft Corp 1,296,079
AOL Time Warner 1,139,861
Amway Corp 1,138,500
MBNA Corp 1,035,905
Top 10 Democratic corporate donors:
AT&T 1,457,469
AOL Time Warner 1,425,637
Ness Motley Loadholt Richardson & Poole 1,290,700
Williams Bailey Law Firm LLP 1,117,050
Joseph E Seagram & Sons Inc 1,100,794
Milstein Properties 1,084,389
Microsoft Corp 1,029,792
Freddie Mac 1,025,000
Global Crossing Development Co 1,007,768
SBC Communications Inc 895,718
Except that the "ransom" will be $100,000 per illegal copy, which is the penalty for piracy according to the US law, and is enforced by the BSA -- unless you strike some amicable "agreement" with MS to settle for, say, 51% of your company's stock plus 100% commitment to MS for essentially eternity.
I was mistaken. The rule is that military absentee ballots mist be postmarket and dated no later than the date of the election -OR- signed and dated no later than the date of the election.
The problem I was referring to was military ballots that were NOT postmarked or NOT DATED AT ALL, and were collected AFTER the election.
I cannot help but think of those "Infect Truth" anti-cigarette ads. Perhaps what we need to do is something along those lines?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Unless something has changed dramatically in the past year or so, Apple hasn't been the major player in the educational market for years. In fact, Dell *alone* sells more machines into schools than Apple (whose market share is somewhere south of 15%, meaning that around 85% of PCs are probably running something Windows-ish). This has been reported in most major newspapers and business mags for years -- do a Google search and I'm sure you'll find plenty of citations.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
It's now in my .SIG...
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Get the source. Recompile for MacOS X. Problem solved.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
We use Apples extensively in our elementaries. We replace them on a five year cycle. For the intended applications, the Apples last far longer than the Wintel boxes in the MS and HS. The way we use them, the price evens out. I'll also point out that in general, the quality of the Apples in a bit higher than el-cheapo Wintel boxes. The amount of hardware failure is much lower than some 233Mhz Gateways I used to service. It's that total cost of ownership thing again. For that matter, keeping the software in a sane state is easier as well. That's not to say that they don't crash from time to time but the recovery tends to be far less difficult than when a Windows machine gets it's registry and filesystem borked up.
Don't let the upfront cost of the Macs fool you. For elementary school classroom purposes, they mostly Just Work. Oh yeah, becoming an Apple Self-Servicing District wasn't very costly either and the technical support is EXCELLENT.
A quality Wintel box running 2000 pretty has these virtues as well...at least they're stable. They cost about as much too. We don't deploy eMachines or PowerSpecs here and with few exceptions there are no Macintosh equivalents to those.
As a matter of fact, the Democrats did NOT try to exclude any of these absentee ballots, but if they had just how is it "dirty pool" to say that the RULES should be followed?
Not postmarked, or postmarked LATE means that the ballots could have been cast AFTER THE ELECTION -- after it was know that the vote was close!
In fact there is evidence that the Republicans worked with the military to get just such votes from ships and offshore bases.
So don't try this "Deomcrats are just as bad as Republicans" stuff. One party respected democracy and one party didn't. And the consequences of this have already shown up in places like Venezuela where we tried to overthrow the elected leader.
It will be more permanent if you print it out and file it before M$ changes their print methods again! Seriously, using propriatory and seceret file formats for records is a bad idea. Microsoft makes it difficult to get the information out, but it can be done. The longer you wait to move to real published formats the harder and more expensive it gets. Converting to text or Post Script outputing your reports to CDs might take care of your record keeping concerns better than paper files. Nothing will be able to help you in five or ten years when you try to read your old Access 98 files and learn that your querries don't work anymore. Oh my.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I didn't get such an early start, but I owe the fact that I'm not living in a cardboard box drinking cheap wine to the interest in computers I picked up about 23 years ago, starting with terminals at school in 7th grade and progressing on to micros, first at places like Radio Shack where the Model I was on display and independent stores with Commodore PETs and such. Eventually, my parents scraped together enough money to get me an Ohio Scientific C4P, and I was on my way.
Even my high school part time job in retail was selling the Commies and Atari XL series, and paid a little more than the standard minimum wage at the time.
Congrats to both your sons--particularly the one in the commissioning program. Those are very selective. A shame Admiral Boorda had to kill himself, but the restoration of that program is probably the legacy he would have wanted.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Well consider that what MS did was illegal, and they were convicted for their crime. Compare using said criminal activity as a fact for forming an opinion to what you list, "best" is at best subjective. A conviction is not subjective. Obviously you need help in critical thinking. Perhaps you were busy "blocking" the educators "opinion" on logical argumentation?
I was the person that the "computer science" dept turned to since I was in the computer lab almost 24/7 (well I wish I was) ... during school ... this was about 1989 ...
I was given several books to look at and I chose the book that was given to the class. I also chose the compiler, since I was viewed as an "expert" at the time ...
My choice? ... Borland Turbo Pascal 6.0
Ahh .. reminicing about the past ...
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.