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Sun Works to Converge Linux and Solaris
Jucius Maximus writes "A new change has appeared in Sun's strategy as reported by CNET. Instead of dismissing Linux as inferior, it is now trying to integrate elements of Linux into Solaris for easier porting of applications. This looks like a step in the right direction for Linux acceptance in the professional server market."
I'm sure Sun's lawyers have been over this with a fine tooth comb, but if they integrate GPL code fron Linux into their OS, doesn't that mean they have to release the source for their whole kernel? Or is it just libraries?
What I would like is for FreeBSD to include Sun binary compatibility in 5.0, so I can run my Linux apps inside a Solaris VM under FreeBSD! ;^)
Sun is trying to put Solaris features into linux.
This strikes me as a very bad move. Why would you improve "competing" products. Now addmitedly it will help them sell more solaris machines but given the open source nature of linux wouldnt this mean the improvements could be relatively ported to intel...effectively shooting themselves in the foot.
The Borg assimilated my race & all I got was this lousy T-shirt
Guidelines for posting in /.
1. Scan for news items that has the keyword Linux
2. Cut and paste a few lines from the story
Add lines lis (*) is in the right direction for acceptance of Linux.
Anybody thinking about writing a perl script for this purpose? Lets call it postbot.
So they did the logical step. Looked in what is Linux better and try to incorporate these things in Solaris. I say, way to go. But its not to increase Linux's acceptance, really :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
IBM's AIX 5L has Linux integration...available now.
The "L" stands for Linux Affinity.
This is at least as much about Linux as it is about competing with IBM and HP. IBM released AIX 5L where the L stands for Linux - they tried to re-implement as much of the linux environment as possible in the AIX kernel and include a bunch of GPL utilities. HP has got a linux porting environment or something like that which is mostly a port of glibc and headers plus utilities to HP-UX 11i. All three vendors have the same goal, to keep their proprietary unix from being completely replaced by linux.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
IBM did this with AIX a year or so ago, for 5L. You can (theoretically) compile any Linux application on AIX without any source code modification, and 5L ships with tons of Linux/GNU tools now, a lot of which are installed by default. Linux is suddenly (and rather quickly) becoming more than just a buzzword in the Real World (i.e. not just Internet companies.)
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
This is like saying that MacOSX has opened doors for *BSD in the graphics art niche. Technically, it has but most of the people using it don't care and see it as 'Mac'. Same thing here. 90% of their customers will just upgrade to the new rev of Solaris and the fact that it has something to do with Linux will be almost completely ignored. No more than 1 bullet in the sales pamphlet.
I have already had the idea to combine Linux and BSD to create LSD. This sounds similar.
Sunux? Solarux? Linaris?
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
For instance, if you have installed OpenSSH on Solaris, you will have been forced to look into the various methods for getting /dev/urandom or a suitable replacement. After I brought this issue up and reminded Sun that they were trying to get to a Linux-compatible API, they backported their Solaris 9 /dev/urandom to Solaris 8 with patch 112438-01. Imagine my shock that Sun actually implemented one of my RFE's.
Here's the configuration for our largest server:
HOSTNAME: grande, OS: SOLARIS 5.8, MACHINE TYPE: E6500 , USER: Server
MEMORY: 28GB, SWAP: 9GB, PROCESSORS: 28 400MHZ, DISK: Fibre Channel Raid 136GB
Linux can't come close to this kind of setup, and I doubt it will anywhere in the near future. Now admittedly, Linux is hurting Sun in a big way. Sun hardware is damn expensive. But we need that kind of hardware here in our shop, and Linux simply won't cut it.
Sun is doing this because Linux is hurting them on low end hardware, not because Linux is in any way better than Solaris for anything other than skinning your desktop.
"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." -- Ambrose Bierce
I'd like to see User-Mode Linux ported to Solaris. Dozens (hundreds?) of Linux boxes running on a single Solaris machine... yum.
Is this actually feasible, or am I on crack?
if they integrate GPL code fron Linux into their OS
Instead of integrating Linux code into Solaris, what Sun needs to do, rather, is to implement some of the nicer features and interfaces of Solaris into the Linux kernel, making Linux look more like Solaris.
I mean, it already does in a lot of ways and, to be sure, they'll have to contend with differences of opinion from the benevolent dictators that control the Linux kernel (eg, POSIX threads debate), glibc, etc.
But it's in Sun's best interest to pave a smooth superhighway upgrade path from Linux to Solaris for users that grow beyond their x86 hardware.
Also, with their ownership of Cobalt, they could really make a pressing low end solution of Java on Linux/x86 to build flavored servers using open source interfaces without tying clients into a OurOneSizeFitsAllYourNeeds scheme. Then, customers wanting more complex business logic could opt for slicker building environment that Sun could sell.
The other hardware route that Sun could take is to build an x86 system with the hardware reliability that has been lacking, especially compared to SPARC systems. Linux gives you a UNIX OS with plenty of nines, there's no excuse for the hardware to crap out as much as it does, especially for servers.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
It's fast and stable, and yet it sucks? What more could you want? Uhhh, hello! CDE is NOT Solaris. It's merely a front-end, much like Gnome, KDE, et al are front-ends. You can put Gnome on Solaris and suddenly it's just as shiny as Linux. Moron.
This is the sort of thing where the GNU/Linux distinction becomes significant. It isn't very clear about precisely what is being copied/encorporated, but if they want to easily run software from 'Linux', they will need pieces of both.
For anything remotely shellish, they will likely need the GNU file-utils and text-utils. This would, IMHO, greatly improve Solaris anyway. They already include bash, gcc, and emacs (though they do ship their own shell and compiler as default) and are already planning to include GNOME.
In short, Solaris already includes massive parts of GNU.
Now Linux is a somewhat different issue. Duplicating kernel APIs is pretty new (by Sun of Linux, that is). It shouldn't be that big a deal, though -- there is still POSIX underlying everything.
Sig:Why copyright isn't a fundamental human right
Given that Solaris has versioning in its dynamic loader I'd be willing to bet they will add Linux API's to Solaris.
Solaris already has most of BSD's API's if you know where to look so its not too much of a leap to add Linux versions as well.
Solaris is well ahead of BSD and Linux in most kernel technologys, its main drawback is ooey, chooey GUI stuff and thats probably what they are actually going to try and make "compatable".
Look at most major open source packages older than 3 years and you'll see Solaris already is supported, its only in the more recent packages that Solaris isn't fully supported and usually because the people developing the packages don't know where to look in Solaris' API's; i.e. which header files and librarys to use.
You're kidding, right?
One of our Sun servers here has *28* UltraSparcs and 28 GB of RAM. How many CPUs can Linux support, 4? How much RAM, 4 GB? Not to mention that Solaris has NFS support that actually works well. And what do you mean "filesystem support"? Are you saying that being able to read/write FAT32 is something to crow about?
Linux is not in the same league as Solaris for anything other that ease of use.
"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." -- Ambrose Bierce
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
Well the use KDE if you want. Or if you want Gnome. Nothing is limiting you from making it shiny on the surface but you lack of effort. Matter of fact on Solaris 9 Sun is dropping CDE iirc.
I know I will also take my lumps for this, but for big data centers solaris is ALOT better under the hood. It expodentially scales in perforamce up to 72 processors and then linerally up to 108. Sure you can make linux clusters and the like, but for rock solid stability on big iron you go with solaris.
Having said that having the linux apis available for solaris is a good thing. Hopefully this is better than the Linux Port kit sun released, that thing failed HARD.
I mod down any one who says "I'm sure I will get modded down for this"
"Linux is where Solaris was five or 10 years ago."
You make your own cynical comment : )
What exactly is it about SysV cp, mv, tar, awk, ls et al that makes them so much more valuable than their GNU equivalents?
Sun has no idea how to address Linux. However, if Sun were to replace all possible SysV components in Solaris with their GNU equivalents, they would be much farther down the road towards a free OS than the Sun Community Source License ever got them. This would at least give them some short-term PR, plus cutting development costs.
I really don't understand why every UNIX distribution isn't making these moves. If I were to say that 90% of the GNU UNIX utilities could replace the proprietary components with no visible effect to the OS, would that be a conservtative estimate?
Sun could go even further by wrapping Red Hat Linux around the Solaris kernel, and scaling Red Hat onto an e15k.
And, if Sun were to take the step of open-sourcing the Solaris kernel, Sun could put an end to the question of enterprise UNIX on any Intel platform - Sun takes all.
Come on, guys, wake up! You're asleep at the wheel!
Note, it's their Linux guying talking. When McNeally gets up and says we're merging Solaris and Linux, then you can get up and pay attention. This is just another step in Sun's long, slow embrace of Linux on the x86 platform. So long as they make most of their money from SPARC boxes running Solaris, I don't expect you'll see Linux at their core. Running Linux programs in a compatibility mode, ala Caldera's OpenUnix, yes; running a Linux kernel on SPARC, as the recommended course, no.
Steven
Funny. Yet another sheep praising Linux without a clue. If you'd been paying attention, or knew anything about Linux, you would have realized that the 2.4 series has had a problem with everything the previous poster mentioned.
There have been serious problems with almost every kernel in the 2.4 series, and the 2.2 series kernels were slow as hell.
Really, what do you think you're accomplishing by lying about Linux's shortcomings?
This looks like a step in the right direction for Linux acceptance in the professional server market.
Only somebody with zero Unix, and hardly any linux would say such a stament. The fact is that SUN doesn't give a damn about Linux, it jsut wants the exposer... Suns strategy is to Maintain Solaris 9 for the server environment, and deligate a Linux kernel for the desktop space. And don't let the word "Linux" fool you either... Linux is a kernel program, not an Operating Environment. So yes, Sun plans to sell Solaris 9 in the server space, and sell solaris with a linux kernel (possibly) for the Intel x86 systems on the network. It is possible SUn may make a distro of Sol9+linux for Sparc too, but who really cares. Most of the stuff that would make me want to use Linux on a Sparc box is now a default feature in Sol9.
The big mess Sun got into when they anounced they were dropping Solaris 9 for x86 ARCH wasn't such a suprise to me, considerign they have for a year now been say they are going to develop their own Linux distro to handle that segment of users. I wish people would wake up and pay attention. This is such old news!
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
I guess they can join IBM in the ol' "Spiral of Death" eh?
Puh-leeze. IBM has wholeheartedly embraced Linux and is stronger than ever.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
This reminds me of a screenshot my coworker took which I keep printed on my office wall. There's a yes/no dialog box asking to reboot Solaris after installing some software on it (cant remember what it was, but still).
There's also my coworker's hilarious comment beneath it : "WINOLARIS ???"
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Generally however we've found that the cost of open sourcing code for a proprietary product is non-trivial. I know it seems counter-intuitive but consider this: the reality is you can't just toss code over the fence.
Open-Sourcing Solaris is non-trivial, she explain it in her answers. But working on already open-sourced coded is not. It benefit both Sun AND the Linux community because Sun's change will get back to the community and it benefit sun because they have a very solid base to work on.
Sun's position on Linux has long been friendly, since we see it as a commodity unix variant which has been very successful at growing the community of Unix users.
I wonder how much "has long been" really is, but it's not the point. I found it is rather honest on their part to say it that way. The first 8nix variant I saw was Mandrake 6.0 or somehing like that. I felt in love with it and since I had the chance to deploy aaplication on Solaris a couple of time. So the comment makes sense, Linux has a lot of visibility and it happens sometimes that it is what brings users to the realm of Unixes. So, even from a marketing point of view, it all make sense to adopt it. It gives them free publicity because of their implication with Linux. And afterward, it benefits them because they can either sell more Solaris or just more server, even with Linux on it instead of Solaris, they make te buck with thehardware.
All that being said, they had to previously (well, they have to) "support" both Linux AND Solaris and port appliation to both platform. By trying to standardise both, they keep the previous;y stated benefits, and they do a cut in the devellopment budget.
And in the end, it benefits us to. That's is the way I would like all business to work. Make your own business, cleanly, and work WITH the community. It can only do good, both for the business and to the consumer/user/geek/etc etc...
I'd rather be sailing...
If Sun went to the maintainer of GNU tar and said "integrate these patches and we will use your app as the primary Solaris TAR," how quickly do you think the GNU people would wet themselves? They'd leap at the chance.
"linux is where solaris was 5 or 10 years ago"
Yep. It's on everyones servers
"Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me"
This move is good for Linux, is good for Sun, its good for IBM it good for HP and it is Bad for Microsoft. When you try to talk to middle managment about using Unix systems they come up with the excuse that there is little software for that platform. And Comerical Developers will more likely program for MS Stuff becuase that is where the market share is, ms is reported to have between 30-45% Marketshare), Now Add the big UNIX guys Combined make up about 50% of the market share all start playing nice with each other, Sure they are compeating against each other but they try to make a better product the the other guy, And agreeing on a Linux format API. Why Linux because Linux is not owned by any company so you are not giving one company a head up on the other. With a simular API style it is easier for Comerical Programmer to make programs for the different platforms so say I made FooBar Server program on my Linux box that the source code can port super easy to a Solaris, HPUX, AIX box it a good thing because my FooBar Server can be accessed on 50% of the servers.
Consumers get the benefit because there are more and cheaper programs available for their Platform. And they can choos the type of *X platform they want to use.
The UNIX companies get extra insurence that there is a chance that they can get repeat business form there Customers. And have the advantage of more software for their platform.
Smaller Developers and Support personal get the advantage of easy comunication between the different Unix systems.
But it will hurt the following people.
Microsoft. Becuase they are being "more" seporated from the curent standards. And being shunned my more third party developers.
Windows only programers. But it is there fault for not following the real standards. And opening there mind into more cross platform development.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Huh? Every couple of weeks, there is another story in the news of some big company dumping their Suns for x86 servers running Linux. Where did you get the idea that Linux is not already accepted in the "professional" server market?
That was really impressive examination of my grammar. Considering that English is only my third foreign language, its not bad, right? :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Gee, adding Linux compatibility to a proprietary Unix. Isn't that exactly what Big Blue has done with AIX 5L?
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
Absolutely. In professional technical circles, Linux's procfs has a well-earned and well-deserved reputation as a random dumping ground for anything which strikes the LKML folks as k3w1. There's a very clearly-written article on the subject buried somewhere in Usenet; I thought I'd saved a copy but cannot find it at the moment.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Sorry, but I think you Linux evangalists are plain wrong. I work for a company that supplies managed services to blue chip firms and the demand is still there for Sun boxes, due to the quality of the OS and hardware they ship. Linux may have the some features of Solaris, but it doesn't *yet* have the track record and enterprise level support that our clients require. The worrying thing is that whilst for smaller shops Linux is being used for low end web servers etc, for our customers they'd rather use W2K in the cases where they can't justify the cost of a Sun box : /bin/ls I like it, but of all the UNIX like platforms I've worked on Solaris is my favourite.
A few things I like from Solaris that Linux doesn't really have yet... Scalability, I know its not an issue for most of you guys, but Suns 106-way boxes are really quite neat. Technologies such as JumpStart, which make rolling out a new web cluster a breeze. Stable IPv6/IPSEC support. Comprehensive support, from *one* source. A top class architecture to run the damn thing on.
I like Linux, don't get me wrong, I personally have 2 Debs boxes and manage a Slack box in Slovenia, but I also have a FreeBSD box, Sparc running Solaris 8 and a HPUX powered PA-RISC machine.
My attitude is that if it has
Tim Brown
Mind you, it's a lot better now that it used to be. Early Solaris, all you could get was a handle to the memory image of the process, useful for gcore and nothing else.
When I finish the installation of a Solaris box I spend many hours installing by hand things so it's
more like linux.
Spend a couple of hours setting up and customizing a Jumpstart server instead. It's a simple matter to have a script automatically install the packages you want from sunfreeware (or from your own repository).
Solaris provides the ability to scale, and has some pretty sweet reliability features. Scaling is one of those things Sun really cares about and that's why it's one of those criteria that it uses to measure itself against Linux. In the world of big servers, it's not so much about being 5% faster. It's about not crashing and being able to add more power with minimal or 0 downtime. Even look at IBM. Where it's using Linux, it frequently has a layer of mainframe or midframe proprietary OS hiding underneath to manage the nasties that Linux just isn't ready to handle yet.
They realize Linux is popular and are building a bridge between their own high end stuff and more low end linux stuff. They are also improving their chances of being able to bail on Solaris and switch to Linux if that need arises in the next five or ten years. They also want to bring things like SunONE to Linux so SunONE will gain share over
Read the article. They're improving compatibility for native compilation, so the source code needs less work. While binary compatibility is not a bad thing, it's much more limited. Linux hasn't had much use for ELF lately, for example. Binary translation ages. Source code doesn't.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
In all honesty I'm not sure that Linux needs to get into data centers. At the E10k and Superdome scalability levels the OS is very much an afterthought. The only thing those companies care about are guarantees of less than 5 minutes downtime a year, and millions to Tpm. I think it is sufficient if Linux is on the network boundary between the backend systems and the Internet, doing what it does well (like giving killer network bandwidth.)
LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
You mean, the primary GNU/Solaris tar.
Actually, I'm quite curious -- what do you guys need that monster machine for. You don't have to give away everything, but I can't really imagine too many uses for something that heavy. (esp. that couldn't be done with a more distributed architecture)
there is no thing
what else could you want?
No. Truss prints off system calls. putenv(3) and getenv(3) are not system calls, so when you truss, you don't see them.