Slashdot Mirror
Bioware Release Neverwinter Nights Beta Toolset
Zed Pobre writes "Careful review of the EULA of the Neverwinter Nights Beta Toolset reveals the following clause:
Section 4(b):
"By distributing or permitting the distribution of any of your Modules, you hereby grant back to INFOGRAMES and BIOWARE an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means. Infogrames or BIOWARE may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Modules publicly available."
This is more or less the same as if a company producing a compiler wrote into the EULA that by distributing any program compiled with that compiler, the company would permanently get the rights to do whatever they wanted with that program, including reselling it for profit and then forbidding you to publish it yourself.
Derek French, the Assistant Producer for Bioware, confirmed that this section of the EULA is not going to change for the final release. Although he noted in the same message that similar clauses have been used by other companies providing tools for users to create their own content, NWN has a much greater scope than any of them by far, and it's now a profoundly bad idea for someone who wants to keep control of their writing, characters, or game ideas , or use those elements elsewhere, to make a NWN module using those elements publically available.
This kind of clause falls just short of "Bioware Owns Anything You Make", since if they want to sell a module you created themselves, the clause even allows them to forbid you from distributing your original version for any reason. The sole comfort in this is that the clause apparantly does not allow them to make a derivative work of your module, so it would have to be distributed "as is" -- but if the module contained enough "objectionable" material that they wouldn't want to take it for themselves, they could still forbid the owner from distributing it.
Once again, it seems that companies are only against piracy as long as it's their material being pirated. If they can pirate some individual's material by throwing an unreadable EULA up for a second at install time, it's perfectly fine.
The full forum thread discussing this can be found here."
This sounds like basically an Online D&D game with a DM and such.
I don't know too many people that play traditional RPGs since everquest and UO came out. Do any folks still get around and play D&D? If not why dont' you? Is it because of time getting people together and whatnot. If so this could be the answer for you.
It sounds like a neat idea maybe it will take off.
Maybe not.
EBgames.com will send you the editor on a
seperate disc if you pre-order the game.
I assume that you're going to need the game
to try out your adventures anyway, so you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
If you use a download program that supports resuming downloads, a disconnection won't mean you'll have to start all over again.
:-P
I can recommend wget, which has an option (-c) to enable resuming downloads.
It's available both for Linux (Unix) and Windows. Just Google for "wget download" and possible Windows if you need the port.
Of course, you can also use a GUI program, such as GetRight (don't know url). It has advertising banners, but I don't think you'll notice them if you let it download overnight
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
The file it's self is 241mb and can be downloaded from Bioware
Somewhere in America, an English teacher is crying and doesn't know why.
It won't work under Wine yet (though there are some wine hacks), but there is some work towards fixing this here. Check out the mailing list, as that's where most of the info is right now. Any Wine hackers with actual knowledge on these systems are _very_ welcome to pitch in!
The game itself is coming out for Linux, of course.
/Janne
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Here's the mirrors from the forum:
3D Gamers
Click Here
Baron Bosse
http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE
FilePlanet
http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?file=88066
gec
http://flinx.com/NWN (Mountain View)
http://jibe.biz/NWN (Redwood City)
http://sol.olymp.org/NWN
Use BitTorrent 0.7.1 from http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html to download http://130.237.68.4:8080/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE
http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE
AusGamers
(Sydney Australia)
It's actually not that limited.
:(
You can do everything that you will be able to do in the full version, there are just only about 15% of the models & textures that will be in the game (or so says the readme file).
I've already made a small module with NPCs, monsters, custom scripts, conversations, etc.... It's great once you learn how to do stuff. Now if only I could actually PLAY the module I created! *sigh*
(...and for a Neverwinter scripting competition thing, visit http://members.rogers.com/scriptwars )
(Grabbed from a NWN Forum post by Derek French - NWN Assistant Producer)
Greetings all:
We are trying to organize a list of Beta Toolset Mirrors. If you have the Toolset and have a mirror of the install files, please post them here.
Also, for your download security pleasure, here are the MD5 checksums for the individual files:
AUTORUN.INF - C14C468795575BCE73D84989262479B4
data1.cab - 181F15C7F19E07C92727D9C49E820E40
data1.hdr - B4F103D55E8FFAAA94505716A7C82DE1
data2.cab - A7B82CE88F1FAF469892FC12208655D8
ikernel.ex_ - 4D63BBFF28AFC7A69B6DEFAF048306A7
layout.bin - 26D40B394685321838E00002C30CBEE7
readme.txt - 6CD49925A70C04B3393DEF39F44F4B51
setup.bmp - 03A01D22277FFC06F91B475696946B81
Setup.exe - 1AEB989E361AF85F5099DE3DA25457F4
Setup.ini - FEB5DB091554FE2E65CFED8E2E9D292A
setup.inx - 5AFB35300108D078A2B942DD85759E45
FilePlanet version: NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE - 6D4B52FE7264C16BE9A0A3B506E9456C
MIRROR LIST: 3D Gamers Link
(End of Derek's Post)Baron Bosse Link
FilePlanet Link
gec Link Link Link
Yet another mirror I have found: Neverwinter Vault Link
Even with broadband a 241 mb download can take a while. Can you imagine how long it will take for a relatively new beta while the site is being slashdotted?!? I'm having flashbacks to 1 kb/s!!
I stole this Sig
In a striking reversal of previous software companies, the NWN crew has agreed that the editor for the game is important and actually released it _first_. Unlike other games, the NWN editor is not an afterthought shipped two months after the game's release. In NWN's case, the editor is largely finished and ready for limited distribution. This will allow mod makers, which are expected to be many, to get familiarized with the tools.
C//
Here is some further information on the toolset taken from nwn.bioware.com/downloads/toolset.html
The BETA version of the Neverwinter Aurora Toolset provides most of the functionality of the final toolset that will be included in the retail version of Neverwinter Nights. The final toolset will allow users who purchase Neverwinter Nights to create their own adventures with the fully functional game editor that has been used by BioWare in the creation of the official NWN campaign. Just as a Beta Test provides consumers an early look at a game while the development team continues to test the game and define issues, Infogrames has determined that this toolset can provide that experience to players but is in NO WAY FINAL, and thus technical support will not be available.
There is also an introduction on how to use the toolset at the Bioware website. It will be interesting to see what creations this toolset yeilds because there has been many games with great toolsets but almost no mods to speak of. An example that springs to mind is the underrated Dark Reign 2.
aus.music.scrapbook
They give us an editor that can set up wonderful, wonderful things, but that won't let you experience any of them. This means that by the time NWN goes to replication, there's going to be 3x more content online than on the CDs and legions of mod-makers will stalk the malls, camping out in front of software stores, hoping against hope that their creations don't cause any spectacular windows errors when loaded up with the real thing. I'd be seething with anger if I wasn't bouncing off the walls waiting for the thing to finally download. Damnit, 40k/s is not fast enough!
:p )
( I know, I'll get moderated into obscurity when someone catches that one tomorrow, when they can't even connect to a server, let alone download.
Even as you read this, your pants are strangling your loins! Aaa!
At the point where I am reading this thread there are 55 replies. Of that, only ONE comments on the EULA. Everyone else is foaming all over themselves trying to download the thing.
If that were an EULA from Microsoft, everyone would be calling for a downloading boycott and legal action...
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
It's hard to describe just how flexible and sophisticated this toolset is.
There's a wonderful thread here which shows what people have built in the first 24 hours after the tool was released.
However, these screenshots don't convey the depth of the scripting language that you can use to customize just about anything in the game world.
For example, I have a friend who is a writer. If he decided to create and distribute a NWN module based upon a book that he had written, apparently Bioware would, according to their EULA, have the option to simply steal it and gain ownership of all the contents (characters, settings, etc.).
Further, what about modules derived from, or inspired by, popular works? If a module contains characters named Princess Leia, Wolverine or Ripley, does Bioware have the right to claim ownership of those names too?
The more I think about it, the more I realize that Bioware couldn't get away with this if challenged. They can't claim the rights of copyrightable (or copyrightED) stories and trademarkable (or trademarkED) characters by EULA proclamation. I guess it continues to prove that EULAs are a joke. :)
-Aaron
and besides, it's not like a compiler or something, this is way, way more than a compiler, it's the toolset the NWN designers used to make the game. It's the core of thier 4 years (5? 6?) years of work. If you make something with it (in, say, a week), you owe them at least giving them unrestricted access to it - they put in 5 years X x Developers and you, a week and $50.00. right?
closed minded is as closed minded does
Windows is certainly not the "best" gaming platform ever in terms of tech--hell, I even hung my WinXP the other day playing a game; let alone how many times I hang 98lite which is my primary gaming platform. However, it *is* the computer gaming platform with the largest number of quality released games available, and likely always will be thanks to the sheer numbers of quality legacy games out there that will never be ported to anything else.
Geeks love gaming. A lot of them may wish that all the greatest games came out for Linux too, but that's simply never going to happen--realistically, some of the best games will always be "bought" or developed by Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, or developers in an "exclusive relationship" with them. Consequently, as closed and proprietary as most consoles are, a lot of geeks will buy them. Likewise, as proprietary as Windows is, a lot of geeks will always keep a Win partition or gaming box. One can still dislike the reality while acknowledging it.
I for one will always have Windows for gaming. Even if every new title were to start shipping with Linux support, that wouldn't replace my library of great and classic titles which are Windows-only What I'd really like is to be able to run all my games under one single unified platform--a pipe dream, even with emulators getting more numerous and better. No version of Wine is ever likely to run all of our favorite PC games, unless by some miracle the Win9x source is opened--yeah, maybe in 50 years.Likewise, it will be a very, very long time until we can play *Luigi's Mansion* under a Gamecube emulator for our computers. So, until those days come, there is no hypocrisy in using Windows or another closed platform for gaming--just as I can advocate better and more humane treatment for cows and other animals while not completely denying myself meat; just as I can be a proponent of alternative fuel systems to replace current oil-based systems, without having to walk everywhere.
Aside from which, if every Linux-using geek in the world never bought another Windows game again, it wouldn't make a dent in the sales figures. Almost all games are targeted, naturally, at a more general audience than "Linux evangelists, ages 12-36." What can be useful is buying the Linux versions of games that will have Linux versions--that way voices get heard, and game developers get encouraged to port to Linux. Not buying Windows-only games will not, however, encourage porting to Linux, since most end-users use Windows and a boycott by Linux users will be statistically insignificant.
Not that it matters, anyway, because I think NWN will have a Linux verion anyway if I'm not mistaken. So, go buy the Linux port when it comes out and stop whining. If I misread and a Linux port isn't planned, then write and politely ask for one, and enough letters may convince them.
In any event, stop trolling and go to bed. No soup for you!
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
They've got that part about you making modules with popular works covered in a different section of the EULA.
"(3) your Modules must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties"
So, basically, what this means is that if you make a module with copyrighted stuff in it you are not allowed to legally distribute it. And since Bioware only recieves control of modules you legally distribute, they wouldn't get control of Princess Leia or whatever.
By the by, it also follows that if you wanna protect your ideas, then throw a little framed picture of Calvin and Hobbes on a nightstand in some hut somewhere in your world. Sure, the clause I mention here would give Bioware the power to make you stop distributing it, but they already have that power from the clause that we're already upset about. At least they couldn't get control of it. -- Said argument relies completely on the assumption that one piece of copyrighted material makes the WHOLE module illegal.
I heard a lot of hype about this, but...now that they had that part of their EULA, there's NO way I'm going to write anything for them. I won't buy it, either. There's simply no way that I'm just going to hand over my rights to anyone for using their software. It's ludicrous, to say the least, even if it's NOT from Micro$oft.
Danish != nationality
Bioware's so-called "license" that lays claim to anything you create using their tools is not the first of its kind. Activision pulled exactly the same shite a few years ago with a "license" attached to a version of Worldcraft. And yes, Activision got flayed alive for it. But it's not clear whether they learned their lesson. Bioware certainly hasn't.
A copy of the old Activision/Worldcraft license is appended below (with minor reformatting for HTML). Honestly, these childish people who complain so bitterly and shrilly about "theft" really need to take a good, hard look in the mirror.
Schwab
________________________
Software License Agreement Summary:
The use of this software is subject to the terms of the Software License Agreement below. You must accept the Software License Agreement before you can use Level Utilities. The Level Utilities are provided strictly for your personal use. The use of the Level Utilities is subject to additional license restrictions contained in the Software License Agreement and may not be commercially exploited.
SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
IMPORTANT - READ CAREFULLY: THE LEVEL PROCESSING UTILITIES (THE "LEVEL UTILITIES") FOR USE WITH HEXEN II (THE "PROGRAM") ALLOWS YOU TO CREATE CUSTOMIZED NEW GAME LEVELS AND OTHER RELATED GAME MATERIALS FOR PERSONAL USE IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROGRAM ("NEW GAME MATERIALS"). THE USE OF THE LEVEL UTILTIES IS SUBJECT TO THE SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. BY USING THE LEVEL UTILTIES, YOU ARE CONSENTING TO BE BOUND BY AND ARE BECOMING A PARTY TO THIS AGREEMENT WITH ACTIVISION, INC. ("ACTIVISION"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, DO NOT USE THE UTILITIES AND COMPLETELY REMOVE THEM FROM YOUR COMPUTER AND YOUR POSESSION.
LIMITED USE LICENSE. Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non- transferable, limited right to use the Level Utilities for the purpose of creating New Game Materials solely and exclusively for personal use. For purposes of this Agreement, "New Game Materials" represent computer data that modifies, substitutes for or adds new materials to the materials currently contained in the Product, thus modifying or replacing one or more existing game levels and other constituent elements provided in the Product. You shall not create New Game Materials, or tools that have no substantial purpose other than to contribute to the creation of New Game Materials, except as expressly permitted pursuant to this Agreement.
All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as applicable, its licensors. The Level Utilities are licensed, not sold. Your license and the use of the Level Utilities confers no title or ownership in the Level Utilities or the New Game Materials created using the Level Utilities and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Level Utilities or such New Game Materials.
OWNERSHIP. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Level Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you using the Construction Kit are owned by Activision or its licensors and are protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. In the event that you should, by operation of law, be deemed to retain any rights in any New Game Materials created by you, you, by using the Level Utilities, hereby irrevocably assign, without any further consideration and regardless of any use by Activision of such New Game Materials, all of your rights and interest, if any, in and to such New Game Materials to Activision. You also hereby grant Activision an irrevocable, perpetual, exclusive, fully paid and royalty-free license to exercise any rights, including moral rights, to any and all aspects of the New Game Materials. You agree that Activision shall have the full and complete right to package, publish, print, copy, promote, market, distribute, transfer and display the New Game Materials created by you and prepare derivative works based upon such New Game Materials, and any derivative works thereof, anywhere throughout the world.
LICENSE CONDITIONS.
You agree that as a condition to Activision's consent to allow you to use the Level Utilities, you will not use or allow third parties to use the Level Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you for commercial purposes, including but not limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing, distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate or encourage any proposal or offer from any person or entity to create any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to promptly inform Activision in writing of any instances of your receipt of any such proposal or offer.
If you decide to make available the use of the New Game Materials created by you to your friends, family, co-workers and other fellow gamers, you agree to do so solely without charge.
You shall create New Game Materials only if such New Game Materials can be used exclusively in combination with the retail version of the Product. The New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-alone product.
New Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any COM, EXE or DLL files or to any other executable Product files.
New Game Materials must not contain any illegal, obscene or defamatory materials, materials that infringe rights of privacy and publicity of third parties or (without appropriate irrevocable licenses granted specifically for that purpose) any trademarks, copyright-protected works or other properties of third parties.
New Game Materials must contain prominent identification at least in any on-line description and with reasonable duration on the opening screen: (a) the name and E-mail address of the New Game Materials' creator(s) and (b) the words "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED BY ACTIVISION."
You will not use the Level Utilities to reverse engineer, extract source code, modify, decompile or disassemble the Program, in whole or in part.
TERMINATION. Without prejudice to any other rights of Activision, this Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its terms and conditions. In such event, you must immediately discontinue the use of the Level Utilities and any New Game Materials created using the Level Utilities.
INJUNCTION. Because Activision would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that Activision shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Activision may otherwise have under applicable laws.
INDEMNITY. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Activision, its partners, licensors, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents (specifically including, but not limited to, Id Software, inc., and Raven Software, inc.) harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Level Utilities pursuant to the terms of this Agreement
MISCELLANEOUS. This Agreement represents the complete agreement concerning this license between the parties and supersedes all prior agreements and representations between them. It may be amended only by a writing executed by both parties. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected. This Agreement shall be construed under California law as such law is applied to agreements between California residents entered into and to be performed within California, except as governed by federal law and you consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal courts in Los Angeles, California.
If you have any questions concerning this license, you may contact Activision at 3100 Ocean Park Boulevard, Santa Monica, California 90405, (310) 255-2000, Attn. Business and Legal Affairs, legal@activision.com
Hexen II(tm) ©1997 Raven Software Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Id Software, Inc. software code contained within Hexen II(tm) © 1996 Id Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Developed by Raven Software Corporation. Published by Id Software, Inc. Distributed by Activision, Inc. under sublicense. Hexen® is a registered trademark and Hexen II(tm) is a trademark of Raven Software Corporation. The Id Software name and the id logo are trademarks of Id Software, Inc. Activision® is a registered trademark of Activision, Inc. All other trademarks and trade names are the properties of their respective companies.
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Hi all. I just wanted to jump in here and try and clear up some of the confusion.
First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new. They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.
Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.
Babbster - no, you cannot use your friend's novel nor on Star Wars, or any other existing licenced or copyrighted content for the basis of a module. This is prohibited by the EULA. Your friend can create a module based on his novel. CoreyGH has it right.
Some other comments:
Windows only. Really? Then I guess I better shut down this Neverwinter Nights Linux dedicated server that I am playing on right now...
Toolset is Windows only. Borland was supposed to have Builder for Linux done a long time ago and that was what we were going to use for Linux. We use Builder for Windows for the Toolset. The Linux Toolset is just not happening right at this moment.
The distribution statement means that you cannot charge anyone to play Neverwinter Nights. Neither for modules, nor for server access. This isn't a MMORPG.
And yes, our game is designed such that the end users do NOT need to download the modules in order to play on the server. No matter what module the server is running (well, pretty much).
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Derek French
Producer, Live Team
Neverwinter Nights
You know, if I were making a mod myself I wouldn't mind so much giving them unlimited use of the material I produced. After all, that clause would allow them to enshrine my own ideas as the best of the RPG community -- I consider BG2, at least, a great achievement in RPG composition -- and it also protects them from the risks of being sued if their orginal creations resemble mine. What's aggravating is the clause that allows them to prohibit me from distributing my own mod; they could just lift my own work and stop me from even giving it to my own best friends (legally). What kind of a trade-off is that?
OK. I see nowhere that restricts using... say GPL code in it. Oh wait!!! If they claim your code, just (ahem)kindly remind them that they will have to get permission from EACH AND EVERY developer that wrote the GPL code or have to make the module OPEN SOURCE/GPL.
:-)
GPL infestation! Fun for the whole Penguin family
Now there is only one important question that I'd have expected to see here, and possibly with an answer already:
Does it work in Wine or WineX ?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
This is one of the days where it's great to live in Europe. You see, EULAs are invalid here. In fact, they have been struck down times and again in court.
Now the funny thing is that Bioware is in the US. Which means I'm not bound by their EULA, but if I slap one on my module, they're bound by that. <grin>
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
What I don't understand is how the right to royalty-free distribution of modules protects Bioware and the end users. Can you give an example of where this provision would come in handy?
I understand that you may need to stop people from making Lord of the Rings modules and such, but there's a separate provision in the EULA for that.
Also, Sanuj's main concern on the BioWare thread doesn't seem to get addressed. I don't really care if Bioware distributes my module, but I would care if they used one of my characters in a spin-off novel. This isn't what the EULA is meant to allow, I gather.
Yogurt
BioWare is a privately owned Canadian company. We are not from the US.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Derek French
Producer, Live Team
Neverwinter Nights
good question
that is the essence of this game, a basically old school DM game, integrated with the new graphics.
*shrug* beats the heck out of me how pointing out how it has the advantages of both is trolling, but i certainly do like the concept behind the game, can't wait to see how it turns out
If you make something with it (in, say, a week), you owe them at least giving them unrestricted access to it - they put in 5 years X x Developers and you, a week and $50.00. right?
Hardly. That's like saying that because Apple has invested years into developing iMovie, I owe them unrestricted access to movies I make with it. Wrong. Their compensation from me came when I purchased their product. Why should I compensate them any further by giving them any rights to my creations?
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
NWN will support 64 players per server. It is possible to travel to different servers via portals, this will enable the possibility of huge worlds. But it will not be a massive MP game, since the amount of players per server is severely limited.
It lools more like a small community playing together on a single server or exploring servers.
Carbon based humanoid in training.
Since the toolset is Windows only, this seems to be the obvious way to go. Reverse engineer the file format(s), write an editor, use that editor to create the mods.
I am sure this is eventually going to happen anyway, bad EULA or not.
I completely understand people being negative about an EULA like this, given the abuse we've seen by other major companies in the past. OTOH, witness the following (posted by Derek French of Bioware to the forum thread):
So back on the first hand again, you gotta admit, he's got a point. Bad PR is more damaging than the fighting the best lawyers in the world, any way.
But back on the other hand, the thing I think is bizarre is that they're sticking by their position, even in the fact of reasoned criticism from informed but non-hostile observers. Their licence agreement does appear to be considerably more strongly worded than the cited previous EULAs for other games, after all, and whatever Derek says and however faithfully, they do still seem to have the legal right to take your stuff, sell it without credit, and forbid you from distributing it on the whim of a management weenie.
If Bioware genuinely believe the claims Derek makes above, there would be no harm in rewriting the EULA slightly to clarify the position. Then they'd be raved about on one of the most popular boards on the 'net, instead of having their motives questioned. Good PR beats the lawyers any day, too. :-)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Well, I doubt most news organizations are pro-terrorists, but they still report on everything relevant that terrorists do. It's called "journalism". You report on what is news and what would interest people, regardless of your feelings on the subject.
Some friends and me play good ol' pen'n'paper as often as we get to, but it's not easy to meet (working times, studying, "geographic challenges"). I'm seriously thinking about integrating Neverwinter into that schedule, at least if creation times for adventure settings keep acceptable.
And as for that EULA stuff, I don't think it's really valid or enforceable here (Germany) plus I'm thinking of a chicken-out license to stick to my modules that combines the convenience of private use and a postcard license.
Chicken-out license
This module is in no way meant for distribution. If you found it that means you either stumbled across a resource that I had to use in order to transfer the module for my own private use or someone else already ripped it from one such resource and made it available (since that person wasn't authorized to do so in the first place, this doesn't count as distribution by the maker!). However, since you're already at it, feel free to ignore the non-public nature of this module and let me know what you think about it.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
Feel the burning stare of my hamster and change your ways! - Minsc.
Full plate and packing steel! -Minsc
So this EULA says that anything you create is basically theirs? Yes, it sucks. But that's the conditions and you have two choices. Either you agree to it, or you don't.
It's not exactly a tough decision. However cool the thing is, you do have the option to not agree to the licence and therefore not use it.
Of course, it may mean you can't create your own Neverwinter Night scenarios, but that is what comes of not agreeing to their terms and conditions.
Put it another way. You can come into my house if you take your shoes off. That's the conditions, you either do it, or you don't and go elsewhere. And if you miss my party (and the copious amounts of beer that was there) because you didn't want to take your shoes off, then that is your decision and can't go blaming me for not letting you abide by my rules (however silly or pointless you felt they were).
I fail to see the issue here. Yes, the licence does suck. But they're not a monopoly, they're not forcing you to agree to the EULA and you certainly can continue to happly live in the world without agreeing to it.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
It has to install to C:\
/home are for!
WTF is this, why do I have to install games into my OS installation? That's what D: and
Looks like they're shooting for the LCD here...
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
"Geeks love gaming".
:P
Mmm. Yeah. I think I have a copy of Starcraft somewhere, with about six inches of dust on it. Might've gotten lost in a move. Could care less, really.
I run seven systems on my home LAN. Games are installed on none of them. Might be the fact I'm a Mac user. Might also be the fact that I have better things to spend my money on that hardware upgrades for systems that run photoshop just fine but blow chunks and repeatedly slam themselves against the wall trying to run Unreal Tournament above 5 fps.
I see the toolbox isn't available for MacOS/X. Somehow, this doesn't bother me. Oh yeah, it's because I haven't had enough free time for games in three years.
(this will, of course, get buried as OT....) /. from real journalism is the blatant bias on a LOT of subjects... which, upon coursory glance over the front page, is obviously flatly conflicted and flat out hypocritical. Examples:
/. is a rabble-rouser. Reporting on the latest and greatest rocks if you can maintain that "objectivity" thing, which is something the staff doesn't bother with. Probably because it fuels lots of posts like the ones in this sub-thread, which add to the total story replies, which imply page-views, which is advertising $$. So.
What seperates
1. Blizzard is evil. (Bnetd)- refer to continual mithering about bnetd case every time any form of Blizzard news makes the FP.
2. Warcraft III is gonna be cool!
3. MPAA / DRM / Entertainment Industry is Evil!
4. Matrix Trailer! Star Wars!
5. Windows is EVIL!- refer to any time any member of microsoft does anything that's not approved by the Moral Majority, which is immediatly posted to the FP.
6. Neverwinter Nights Toolset!!! Oooo! (NO mention that it's WINDOWS ONLY *ANYWHERE* in the article blurb. Had to read comments.)
Plain and simple,
Derek posted to the Bioware NWN board and basically said "I'll be blunt; the EULA is final." The next post pointed out that the titanic would never sink, and all police officers and politicians have our best interests at heart. :-)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The status now is the same as it was two years ago.
The good news is that NWN will ship with Windows, OSX, and Linux86 installers for Players and DMs on the same CD. The bad news is that the world creation tools are Windows only.
See also: Bioware's NWN FAQ:
The real answer is that they created the Toolset in the first place using a Windows-only system, rather than the cross-platform environment they used to write the actual game. They've never explained why.
Okay, disclaimer here: I work for BioWare, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not on the Neverwinter team. I'm just a programmer.
:)
Okay, the difference that I see between the NWN toolset and iMovie is that what you create with iMovie is 100% your content. You went out and filmed it, and put it on your computer. Apple didn't provide you with people to be in your movies, stock plotlines if you're trying to make something cinematic, etc.
When you do something with the NWN toolset, you're USING NEVERWINTER. Not only have you been provided with the tools, but you've been provided with the content. ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION. While that may arguably be the single most important part of a good campaign, the fact remains that you've used our toolset to lay some tiles (which we made) place some models (which we made) use some textures (which we made - but it's possible for you to make) and use a scripting language (which we made) to provide behaviours. Did I mention that the creatures, weapons and items are all things that were made at BioWare? Oh, and you're working within a rule-set that belongs to someone else, too.
In the end, I think it's less about the EULA being a bad thing, and more about the law being something that everyone has to protect themselves from. BioWare and Infogrames lawyers have said (I suspect) that to protect ourselves, we must have this clause in the EULA. Yeah, that sucks, but that's the law. We don't want trouble - who does - but the legal system will make life hell for SOMEONE if something goes bad. I also greatly suspect that something like this is in the EULA BECAUSE there was trouble somewhere in the past.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm just a programmer, and I love NWN. If you don't want to create content because you're afraid that you'll be getting screwed, don't. There's a fantastic single player game that'll be well worth your money, and you don't have to worry about using OTHER people's modules, right?
You're kidding, right?
That's a pretty ridiculous chain of logic. What is it you added to your computer in order to help create NWN? That's right, nothing but your imagination. (making some assumptions,) You used an IDE written by another company, wrote in a language invented by someone else; you used various utilities written by other people, your computer was manufactured by others, and so on. Hell, you even used someone else's gaming system. (AD&D) So technically, NWN belongs to a whole group of people who gave you the tools you needed to make the game.
Of course, none of those people put clauses in the licensing agreement that you wouldn't own the things you created. Would you use a compiler that made you give up ownership of any program you compiled with it? If not, why do you expect people to want to use the NWN toolkit?
share and enjoy
You'll note that we paid for the game system, and pay through the nose for the IDE. However, we don't use 'building blocks' to make games. There is no generic 'monster AI' class provided with VC++. Nor are there generic 'RPG creatures' classes, or 'DM Client Creation Wizards'. When you get NWN, you're getting a lot more than a compiler. Artists worked hard on those models and textures, and programmers slaved over making everything work just so. I've worked with the NWN toolset. The effort that you have to put in to make something cool is pretty minimal in comparison to the back-end that makes it work. Building things in Neverwinter is like building things out of Lego. Take the pieces, add some imagination, and you're there!
My point is that you get a lot more with NWN than with an IDE or something like iMovie.
Keep in mind that I'd be happier without the EULA, too. I'm a BioWare programmer, but I'm a Linux and MacOSX user, and I'm the only person at the company (that I'm aware of) that uses EMACS to edit code. In the end, though, the system makes the rules, and the lawyers just try to keep us out of hot water. The EULA may read harshly, but the way it's worded really DOES eliminate confusion, and I'll bet that it's hard to start a lawsuit with language like that in there.
But hey, I'm just a programmer.
It's Quake 101.
Of course a lot of work goes into creating NWN; it's a spectacular product. But a lot of work goes into Microsoft Windows, too, and the owner of that particular piece of work seems satisfied charging per-update rather than royalties for every piece of software that graces the platform. It's not about (shouldn't be about) the relative simplicity of the people creating with your product against the complexity of the work your programmers put into the product. Rather, it should be about finding a marketing system that works for the company.
On a tangentially-related note, The Sims is still fetching $40 in the stores after all these months (years?). Why is that, and is there something to that marketing plan that Bioware could tap into by encouraging a user community of cost and no-cost add-ons to the original product... which is reasonably groundbreaking at this time?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
I stand corrected. I don't know about the legal strength of EULAs in Canada, so the point may or may not be true anyway.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
While I may say many things in my life, I'll never say that it's easy to write a good C++ compiler. This stems mainly from my view that C++ is a moronic language, invented by an engineer that didn't like sitting down and designing things, and as a result is so complicated that only now, after well over a decade, has the first ever fully compliant compiler.
:)
While I agree with the basis of your argument on some level, that everything is built out of pieces that someone else provided, I'm not convinced that the parallels exist. Maybe they do.
In the end, I'm really just trying to stick up for my company, and play a bit of devil's advocate at the same time. I really have no choice but to support EULAs, since they're a product of the legal system that we're in. I think we should really be looking at what can be done about a legal system that ALLOWS EULAs to exist. I don't think I've ever read one that I agree with 100%, but despite the rhetoric, it isn't so easy to just NOT install software.
Legally enforcable contract without consideration?
:)
You *are* recieving consideration, you just didn't notice
They are letting you use the toolkit.
Note: Do not interpret this clarifacation as support for Bioware. I hope some judge gets to look at this piece of crap and uses it as an excuse to rule all EULA's void.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
I'm not convinced that the parallels exist.
:)
:)
One of the components is a scripting language. Right there it puts the toolkit on par with an interperter or compiler, and puts the resulting mod on par with a program. As a programmer you can't fail to see it.
devil's advocate
Demon perhaps, but not devil
If you really want to play devil's advocate you have to argue the case for Microsoft's Windows Mediaplayer EULA. That one reserves the right to download arbitrary executables onto your machine at will and the right to explicitly trash your files. (Both of these clauses are motivated by DRM.)
I'm really just trying to stick up for my company
Was there a subtle (or not so subtle) hint that employees should try and do some damage control on the BioWare and/or Slashdor messageboards?
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Nope. I stuck up for my company because I really honestly feel that we have a fine, fine product. Too good to be ruined by some legalese that'll probably never come into play, and is really just the plaything of a system that's too litigation friendly. Programmers want to make games, gamers want to play them. The legal stuff in between is something neither side wants to deal with. Unfortunately, we need to make money and protect our interests, and you want to protect yours. That means lawyers get involved and make the whole thing unpleasant for the lot of us. Alas. :)
:)
And you're right, I can't fail to see the parallel between our language (which is arguably a proprietary language on a proprietary system...but I'm not sure that matters) and a normal compiler. The OTHER pieces of the toolkit, though (the capacity to place objects, creatures and players, and have them exist within the rules of the AD&D system) seem to be a little more than a simple compiler.
In the unlikely event of any other moderators reading this, my comment *is* ontopic, & meant to be funny. Sigh. Minsc is a character from another Bioware RPG. I hope Mr offtopic gets LART'ed in metamod.
Full plate and packing steel! -Minsc
I stuck up for my company because I really honestly feel that we have a fine, fine product.
:)
I looked on the Bioware and here on slashdot, the only negative comment I saw about your product was that the toolkit was too easy to use which would result in too many crappy mods, chuckle.
The "problem" is that you're sticking up for your company's lawyers, lol.
Last I heard, the "absolutely final, set-in-stone" EULA is being reviewed. The EULA situation has gone too far. People are starting to notice them and it will affect sales. Get your PR and advertizing people on board - this needs to be fixed before it hits the gaming press. Make sure your employer knows that the lawyers work for him, and not the other way around
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Shock! Look at the story now and you'll see it now reads "The file itself is 241mb".
-Kraft
Live and let live
Oh, I WELL understand that VC++ isn't compliant. However, a couple days ago, there was a /. story that said that C++ FINALLY has a fully compliant compiler. I can't remember who did it, though. :)
And if you create EVERYTHING, it should be yours. As long as you're using some part of BioWare's stuff, though, the legal area seems a little grey. It may be your content, but it's got OUR content, too.