Slashdot Mirror
How Effective are Ergonomic Keyboards?
Jodrell writes: "This article on the BBC's website has a brief review of the current state of keyboard technology, but also questions the validity of claims that ergonomic keyboards can help prevent RSI, CTS and other "upper limb disorders." The article suggests that maybe it's working habits that cause these problems, and not the design of computer interfaces. What are Slashdot readers' experiences?"
For me, preventing pain in my hands and wrists is all about having the keyboard at exactly the right height. If it's at the wrong height, I'll eventually get pain. If it's a the right height, I won't. The only other issue is working the mouse in very cold rooms. For some reason that causes my hands to hurt.
C//
I have an Egro KB here on my desk at home, I rarely feel any pain while typing (even doing long research papers and normal crap on my computer).
I spend 8 hours a day in front of a computer at work typing worthless shit all day. The KB there is not Egro and I routinely feel sharp pains and experience cramping outside of work. Granted, my posture probably isn't the best but it obviously shows that the difference is huge when using the E KB over the regular.
That is my experience, YMMV.
It's such a variable thing, that there can be no blanket statement such as "ergonomic keyboards ARE better", or the converse. Personally, I've been typing since I was 9 in 1980 - perhaps before, and I've spend a LOT of that in constant writing. Having discovered Deluxe Paint and Photoshop later, I've also been mousing intensely over that time - and in 20 years there've been no problems I've noticed. I have a nerve injury that causes numbness on the outer two fingers of my left hand which means I type quite offset - yet there are no effects showing up in how I feel using my wrist/elbow/arm
A friend of mine however, can't type pain-free without a microsoft ergo keyboard. That works for him and is another choice that I'm thankful he has.
The most annoying thing when typing so far has been having something in the road of my elbows. That gets to me!
a grrl & her server
Not serverely though, but enough to change my habits. The big problem I was having was that I'd constantly hold my arms up in order to use the computer. I wasn't resting either of my elbos, and this eventually caused severe strain to my neck, shoulders, and even wrists. The first thing I did was I made a habit of having my left arm better rested on the desk or on the arm of my chair. The next thing I did was I got a little tv-dinner table and have my mouse resting on it instead, allowing me to rest my right arm on the chair. My problems went away shortly after making those changes, and I'd recommend them to anybody else.
For all you cubicle dwellers like me out there, another tip is to move your computer to the corner of the l-shaped desk, if you have that opportunity. By using the corner, you can rest both your elbos on the desk.
"Derp de derp."
I don't use ergonomic keyboards, and not only have I used regular keyboards forever, I've been a piano player since I was 5 years old. How come we don't hear about CTS amoungst piano players, organist and the like. What about guitarists? Eddie Van Halen may have cancer, but he's never complained about CTS. While I'm sure that such a condition exists, I'm sure the medical community over-diagnoses, because of the money involved.
In that respect, I don't think it's any different than all the Prozac prescriptions that are given every year. What percentage is completely unnecessary?
for me, it's a bit of both.
i've been a programmer/graphics designer for about a decade now, and i have cts in both wrists (worse in the right from mouse work...), and I can tell you why right now: I don't know how to type properly.
Oh sure, i can bang away at 100 wpm, with very few typos, but my wrists are pressed flat against the table, which is just bad bad bad. Switching to an ergo keyboard helped, but not much.
The only thing that's helping me now is that i wear wrist supports on both arms that force my hands into the proper position. I've been wearing them for over a year now, and i rarely feel pain anymore. If i take them off for a few hours, then it starts to kick back in again. Something tells me i'll have to continue wearing them for a long time, at least until i train myself to type with proper wrist positioning.
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The reason that people get repetitive stress injuries is because the way they are taught to type. In typing class, you are taught to hold your hands in aa certain way, to never cross your hands and to keep them bent at an unnatural angle. Holding your hands in the same position as what typing teachers drill into their students increases the chance that you will do damage.
I would like to see a study of people who type using the "touch typing method" v.s. people who use the "hunt and peck" method. I think you will find that people who vary how they type have a much lower chance of having repetative stress problems than people who follow the rote dictates of how "you are supposed to type".
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
The bottom line is that as long as we have to twiddle our fingers for data entry, RSIs continue will be a problem. It's just a question of improving posture to minimize injury.
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I have a MS Kurvy Keyboard (AKA "natural") and I can say that it does make a difference. After years of "normal" keyboard use, my wrists were getting quite sore. I finally bought a MS keyboard. I can type all day with it. If I use a "normal" keyboard, my hands are aching after 15 minutes. I would be lost without it.
I had a bout with tendonitis/carpel tunnel (depending on which doctor I asked) a number of years ago and immediately switched from a normal keyboard to an ergonomic one, eventually finding one from Kinesis (Specifically the Classic) that actually helped. I have found this keyboard to be a great help, and after a bit of research it's actually pretty clear why.
;)
The whole deal with ergonomic keyboards is that to be effective they need to eliminate wrist possitions which cause your tendons to drag along the edges of your wrist, which causes inflamation. The key to this seems to be maintaining a natural "relaxed" wrist position which allows the tendons to do their work right in the middle of the wrist.
Of course people vary quite a bit, so it seems that what works for some doesn't work for everyone. I've found that I'm particularly sensitive to this kind of injury (don't ask me why, I just am...) so the Kinesis is the only thing that works for me. I've met plenty of folks who don't need something this extreme because the more "normal" ergo keyboards change their possition enough that they stop having problems - generally the Kinesis will also work for them, but is over kill. Those more "normal" ergo keyboards don't do crap for me.
I've also met plenty of people who just don't seem to have a problem with this stuff. I don't know what it is, but some people seem susceptible and others can spend fifty years typing on a standard keyboard and never have a problem. Go figure.
I'm tempted to say that the "normal" ergo keyboards are a scam, because they don't work for me, but they seem to help enough borderline folks that I just keep my mouth shut instead. If you're having real wrist issues though don't write off all ergo keyboards until you check out the Kinesis ones. They provide a much more robust solution to bad positioning than any of the others, many of which focus on how "turned in" your hands are while ignoring the degree of flex in your wrists.
And of course, the position of the rest of your body matters too.
I'm unwilling to say that ergo keyboards are a waste or a scam for the simple reason that without them I couldn't code anymore. I did that for a while before I found the Kinesis, and it was bad. My life as a waiter is not a pretty thing
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(Of course, you'd still need the armed guard standing behind Jon Katz and forcing him to use his, but progress comes in small steps...)
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Of course, the thing that everyone agrees on is that you have to take breaks, and limit your total time at the keyboard.
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I knew exactly what was happening to me, but at the time I was trying to start a business and didn't have health insurance. Becoming panicked, I goaded my partners into starting the search for insurnace we could afford - amid the spiraling costs and free-fall benefits currently available, this took 5 months. Toward the end, I was unable to work.
I read every single piece of literature on the internet about RSI, and then I moved on to the library and the medical books. This condition has happened in my family, and I immediately knew how much trouble I was in. Everything said the same thing: "see a specialist now - don't wait!" But I couldn't! And I inevitably ended up looking at the major "RSI keyboards" - i.e. Twiddler and Datahand. I "evaluated" the Datahand (this is a $1,000+ investment, but still less than the consultation fee of a good specialist) for several months.
The principle seemed sound to me - the literature they had appeared convincing and the salesman I spoke to claimed to be an RSI sufferer himself who had been helped "dramatically" by the keyboard. It got a lot of comments sitting on my desk - the thing looks quite sci-fi. However, the learning curve was steep (at least for me) - it took weeks of constant effort in order to get to a third of my current 90wpm. Convinced I might be saving my wrists, I let this massive and unbearable disruption to my work continue unabated, but I found that I still felt pain, and at the end of the day, I still felt numb. In hopeful moments, I thought perhaps it would pass as I gained proficiency with the keyboard.
Eventually I more or less stopped working altogether, using interns and co-workers to type for me. My partners started to get nervous - far from sticking with their friend, I knew they were starting to wonder how they could get rid of this medical disaster in their midst. I started to contemplate what the rest of my life would be like without the ability to type or perform other similarly intricate motions with my hands.
Finally, the insurance came through, and I canvased New York, looking for the best specialst I could find. In an oak-paneled office a few blocks from Lincoln Center, I mingled with young musical prodigies and their handlers, and I was given two cortisone injections, an exercise regimen, and a piece of advice:
"Those keyboards aren't worth the plastic they're molded out of."
I went back on the regular keyboard, and within weeks, I was 100% back to normal.
So, in summary:
We're on the road to Tycho.
My mother cannot use a mouse for extended periods of time anymore. She has to use a trackball. Mabye ergo keyboards/trackballs don't prevent pains, but the sure do help to relieve the pain.
The Facts About Repetitive Strain Injuries -- An interview with Scott Wright, Webmaster and Primary Caretaker of the Typing Injury FAQ.
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The standard QWERTY keyboards in use today are still a mess, and could still be improved. And improving them might even help prevent RSI. But my understanding of it, gleaned from the Doctors I've worked with is that the keyboard itself is a relatively small part of the puzzle, with work habits (regular breaks!), posture, chair and desk, and other aspects of your fitness (most of the exercises I did were back-related) making up the majority.
At the very least, I wouldn't mind seeing Dvorak keyboards come into style.
We're on the road to Tycho.
I feel weird whenever I type on a regular keyboard. About 6 years ago when I was a computer science major, I found that I started having pains in my wrists after working at the computer for a long time. I decided to buy an ergonomic keyboard and found that the pains went away almost immediately, and it only took a few weeks to get used to the different key layout. Now I can even type faster than I did before. I just wish that they would standardize the layout of ergonomic keyboards because most of them are different from each other and put the 6, b and y keys on differing sides.
I went to a class given by our university about ergonomics. The people there seem to encourage students to stay away from the kinesis and microsoft/logitech models of this world. The best keyboards they said where the split keyboard model made by gold touch (a respectable company who has been in business for long time but with a ad budget lower than MS and the others) and the now defunct Apple ADB model which was a direct reap off of the gold touch model.
Living on Apple reputation to design always cool stuff, it's a shame that they stopped making that keyboard.
The position of the forearm seems to dictate according to the instructor the problem related ot wristh pain. He also mentionned that the laptop keyboards are worse than desktop keyboard because they will let you palm rest at the same level than the keyboard. Not to mention the most of the time smaller form factor associated with laptop keyboards.
Since I went to that class, and because I love the laptop form factor (me japanese), I keep my hand elevated while typing which gives my gesture an elegant touch. Not that I had pain before but like in many other activities, prevention is better than being sorry.
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-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
Keith Emerson and Carl Palmer (of ELP) have both had problems with music related RSI.
Check this link out: Music RSI
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
If I feel better at typing on an ergonomic keyboard, it is effective for me.
"Touch typists" who don't look at the keyboard, but look straight ahead at their monitors can, through proper placement of their monitors, maintain good posture throughout the work day.
I am not an ergonomics expert, but there's nothing inherently wrong with touch-typing either. More that the way keyboard are normally positioned force your wrist into a prone position.
BTW. there are exercises you can do to help prevent carpal-tunnel from keyboarding.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
When my right wrist starting hurting this January, I decided to change several things. First, I gave up my cheap Packard Bell keyboard in favor of one of the old, loud IBM models. This thing feels so much better. I don't know about any new, oddly-shaped keyboards, but this feels great to me. Additionally, I got a keyboard drawer to position it at a better height, which helped.
I also talked to one of my martial arts instructors (who is also a chiropractor) about exercises to help. He showed me several that have also made a big difference. In case you're wondering, it's an Indonesian art called Pentjak Silat, and the exercises involve sticks (I also take Jujitsu, which does have some wrist stretching, though Aikido would do more).
Aside from martial arts, I also play several musical instruments, and I think that the variety of motion is probably also beneficial.
PS: Yes, I do use qwerty touch typing, and have since I was around 10 (I'm almost 25 now). I think my problems may have been brought on by a period of time in which I didn't play much music, was doing less martial arts, and was writing many pages of Japanese characters. The fact that my left wrist is fine deepens this suspicion.
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The problem I find with most "ergonomic" keyboards is that the angle they split the keyboard at is too wide for me...and the adjustable ones are too flimsy. I sometimes work 14 hours a day on my keyboard...and I quickly can feel the strain. What did help me muchly was dumping the mouse. I first of all tried the Logitec trackball that uses the thumb, and that was nearly as bad as the mouse...then I moved to the "Marble Mouse", the one where your hand sits on top of it and you use your index finger to move the trackball, and the buttons are on either side of where you rest your hand. Well, placed, it causes virtually no strain on my wrist. I tend to use Keytronic keyboards with their soft touch, but full travel keys. Nice.
ttyl
Farrell
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During my thesis work, I had a lot of strain on the muscles and tendons on the pinky-side of my forearms. I actually had to stop all work for about four days at one point. Once I got the split keyboard, the problem disappeared. (It was also helped by using Dragon Naturally Speaking to dictate parts of my thesis.)
Going back to my old keyboard afterward, I also found that the keys are stiffer. I think that was also part of it.
Patrick Doyle
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I suffered from carpal tunnel syndrome and now I'm mostly over it. I believe that my recovery is due in equal parts to rotating among three keyboards so that my wrists aren't always in the same position, good typing habits, and practicing the exercises recommended by the America Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons to prevent injury.
The AAOS page with infos on this is located at:
http://www.aaos.org/wordhtml/press/exerci.htm [aaos.org]
Cheers!
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I used to work for a company that specialised in ergonomic products to reduce RSI symptoms, including keyboards, mice, pads, mats, Speech Recog software and RSI software. I was typing a lot, so replaced my Mac's standard keyboard with an ergo keyboard. The difference it made was immeasurable comfort. Since then I've started using a laptop, and I find that if the position I'm in is uncomfortable, I can just pick up and go work somewhere else - a different desk, chair, lie down on a couch or bed and use it, go lounge outside - whatever.
These things DO work - along with taking frequent mini-breaks (30 secs per 10 minutes), and stretching your arm muscles.
Also, make sure you take your eyes away from the screen and focus on something far away - outside, for example. That always helps.
RSI is a problem, and prevention IS the solution.
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There are physiological differences between people that make the difference where carpal tunnel syndrome is concerned. I lucked out, being big-boned, so I have a large carpal tunnel for my tendons to travel through. Some people have such a small gap that any sort of repetitive finger motions will bring on the symptoms. For a lot of people it's borderline; operating in non-ideal conditions will cause some problems, but paying attention to ergonomics can definitely help.
I combined common sense and professional advice with practical application for a successful outcome.
...
I used to have dull aches and pains on my right, upper forearm. Learning to mouse left-handed fixed that problem (~2 weeks to become proficient). Now I right-mouse at work and left-mouse at home to achieve a nice balance and I don't have that pain anymore.
Fast forward two years
I was waking up about three times a night with numb hands. I saw my doctor and he said it was a symptom of carpal tunnel syndrome. I researched on the Net and decided to go with the Kinesis Contour keyboard ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/ ). I also modified my seating area to improve kb height, monitor view, etc. The Countour is very good for typing letters, but using Emacs and vi is still sometimes challenging (I'd gotten use to Ctrl-[ for Esc). It is easier on my hands and I feel less pain and I got down to waking up only a few times a week with hand numbness.
I went back to the doctor and he sent me to a sleep lab, where I found out I have Sleep Apnea. Now I use CPAP to sleep at night.
By combining common sense and professional advice/eq with practical application, I have successfully eliminated pain, improved my sleep at night, and I'm now more productive during the day.
NB: My docoter also said CTS cannot be eliminated by these devices, but if the pain is subsided, then that is enough for me right now.
I haven't followed this field closely, but from what I've seen, the science hasn't seemed to advance since then, mostly because companies are spending big dollars to prevent studies from going forward, and the Republicans want to keep the government off our backs by preventing any regulation or much research into ergonomics. (In my paper, I noted that legal tort-liability rules were shifting so that manufacturers -- who would almost certainly have been held liable if their appeals reached the courts in the early or mid 80's -- would probably win their appeals in the 90's, which is mostly what happened.)
My own opinion is that the number one ergonomic problem today is the desk. Despite study after study showing that worker injuries are reduced if desks are adjustable, nobody (including me) wants to spend a thousand bucks more for an "ergonomic" desk that allows for adjustment of the surface and especially the keyboard level. (Instead, we spend much more on lost work time and on chiropractors, etc.)
Adjusting the chair (though important) is not enough since lowering the chair means awkwardly repositioning the legs, and the torso follows into a poor position.
Of course, one problem is that nobody offers an ergonomic desk at a reasonable price. Are there patents or something preventing someone from selling a $500 adjustable-height desk? Instead, whenever I've shopped, prices start somewhere north of $1,000, for the flimsiest adjustable desks, and $2,000 for anything decent.Another ergonomic problem that I've quickly solved was the mouse. After many months of shoulder and elbow pain, I switched from a mouse to a trackball (I think it was in 1992 or 1993), and the pain simply vanished. Sometimes I do get wrist and finger pain, but that fades if I remember to switch regularly between two slightly different style trackballs. (But please don't use a lousy trackball, stick to the Logitech red-ball trackballs.)
Finally, things like posture and work breaks are absolutely essential. Any employer who allows employees to sit hunched over a keyboard for hours without a break, probably deserves to pay immense sums for insurance (workers' comp and health). It is not an employee's right (even a self-righteous coder) to sit hunched over the keyboard for hours. Breaks MUST be taken, in which the employee at least stands up and raises her arms!
Finally, let me recall my favorite case in researching ergonomic liability lawsuits. One of the phone companies (I think it was US West) had instructed its consultants/contractors to design a 411/directory/information-service terminal that did NOT display characters as they were typed, because their research showed that employees slowed down their typing speed if they waited to see if the correct character was displayed. Of course, once the employees couldn't see what they were typing, their natural tendency was to pound the keys harder to be sure the character was being recorded (since there was no feedback about what level of keystroke pressure was enough). The result was a 100% injury rate (RSI/carpal tunnel).
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
Generally, I've liked the QuietKey keyboard series from Dell. It's too bad you can't order them seperatly as all they have available online are inane offerings from MS and Logitech with all kind of useless keys and functions. So I resort to stealing them when a new server comes in.
I also absolutely need a good wrist pad and mouse pad. I highly recommend the Fellowes products for this. I rest the base of my hands on the wrist-pad and my fingers reach accross the keyboard in a fairly natural position.
I'm also very picky about the kind of mouse I use. In particular, I prefer the optical mice that focus on a light form.
The Happy Hacker keyboard was nice too, I appreciate it for the quality of the key feel, but eventually had to ditch it for a lack of number pad and function keys.
I recommend switching the caps-lock and ctrl keys around too. Makes editing and just general functions much easier to perform.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
My Kinesis Essential will beat up your Microsoft Natural keyboard any day. Yeah, it's funkier, but it puts the important keys under your thumbs, like backspace, delete, and enter.
No pain, and I type faster. I like that in a keyboard.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I persuaded her to give the Logitech Optical Trackball a try, and she loves it. All the carpal-tunnel problems seem to have gone away, and when you watch her play games now, she can make that trackball fly!
I note that a few others said they had mouse problems as well... maybe this will help.
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I play the piano for at least 2 hours every day, and I'm in front of a computer keyboard for another 4 to 6 hours.
Interestingly, the most uncomfortable action for me is mousing! If I have to do something like Image Editing for hours at a time, I have to take breaks or risk getting a sore hand and wrist.
I think the way you sit, how relaxed you are, and how fat you are are more important to working a keyboard without injury than the particular layout of the computer keyboard.
Pianists learn quickly that the way to get "velocity" and fluidity at the piano is not to waste any energy! Don't keep "pressing" at the key once it's down, just let gravity hold you hand on it, and don't move your hands and fingers any more than absolutely necessary.
The same holds true on a computer keyboard. Learn how to type properly. "Eyes on copy" with your hand in the proper position; Don't press at the keys any harder than needed.
--
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My right wrist hurts sometimes, after a long session. But guess what? It's not the keyboard.
In my case, and maybe in many other people's cases, it the mouse. God, how I hate mouses. Having to sustain your arm in the air while you move the mouse around, your hand always resting on the same position, your fingers having to repeatedly perform the same movements...
I've tried a lot of different things, from changing mouses to changing the way I hold them, to changing the way I sit. I've tried trackballs and touchpads, I even tried a foot-operated gizmo I got to build with a couple of guys from work.
Some things work, some things don't. All in all, I'd go for trackballs, wirelless ones, the kind you can place wherever you want to (desk, arm of chair, lap) and still do your stuff.
Many people in the (computer) business don't type all day long. Still, every time I hear about ergonomics people only talk about the keyboards. And, no, I don't think I'm alone in this.
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I quite regularly work at a computer for 12 hours a day, sometimes more. A few years back I started to get occassional aches and pains, particularly in my fingers and wrists. However nowdays I rarely get anything, and I certainly don't work any less, for me the solution seemed to be...
1. Logitech trackerballs. I have two computers on my desk and I use a different type for each - one driven by my thumb and the other the symmetrical one using the index finger. Logitech are by far the best trackerballs - microsoft ones are ok and anything else is invariably crap. using a trackerball IMHO is the most important thing preventing a problem.
2. Split keyboards. I use these and find them comfortable, but of lesser importance than trackerballs.
3. Breaks. I'm fortunate and work from home, so no-one is looking over my shoulder. I always keep something else to do in the office or nearby - painting my sons models, go and sort out the plants - at the moment there's a rc model plane being built. I stop every hour or two and spend some time doing something else completely different.
...but only for musicians who play their instruments 6+ hours every day.
How many of those are there? Compare to the number of people who use keyboards for 6+ hours per day.
The problem for musicians is old and well-recognized, so exercises and techniques to avoid RSI are part of the formal education of almost every serious music student.
So it's a relatively small pool of people, many of whom are carefully taught to avoid the problem. Of course you're not going to hear about it much.
I think your thought in the second paragraph is wrong. I've been typing since the age of 3, and yet I started to get CTS at about age 18, and switched over to the MS Keyboard. After a few weeks, I'd got used to the layout.. and found I was typing far faster than before. Three years later, I still love it.
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Don't be silly. Under Windows, MacOS, and Linux (and probably all other major OSes) you can specify any keyboard layout you want. I've contemplated the idea of switching to Dvorak for a few years but just haven't gone through with it. But I did at least set up my Win2k desktop in anticipation of making the switch -- it takes at most three minutes to do.
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Carpal Tunnel is a mighty mean thing....and it's really, really common where you least expect it. Computer users can adapt to a non-ergonomic environment. Personally, Ive started using the foam wrist brace for the keyboard, and have transitioned to the fully programmable, four button, Cordless Trackman FX made by Logitech. So, no problems there.
However, as a member of both a full band and orchestra, I see RSI and CTS all the time. I see flutists wearing wrist braces prior to auditions, to keep their hands from going numb. Violinists and violists use special braces to keep from getting neck cramps, and clarinets & oboes have equipment to take pressure off their thumbs.
So, most (read:popular) instruments have methods developed to take care of this. But then you have others. Tuba and sousaphone players have a horrible time, stretching and carrying such a big instrument. Myself, I'll get shooting pains along my left arm during long practices on the bassoon, easily the least ergonomic instrument. There's no alternative way to hold it, and you *cannot* wear a wrist brace while playing it. You just can't reach the needed keys with that kind of restriction.
But music is still being composed, and there's still need for bassists, cellists, and all the low winds. If we complain about a eight-hour practice, all we get is "You're young. You'll survive." So much for the helpful employer. We just try to pace ourselves to avoid it.
Is working at a computer for eight hours worth the injuries? No.
Is the music worth the trouble? Yes.
"To make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan
You know, normally I give people shit for correcting my spelling, but I wanted to thank you for being far more tasteful about it. :)
The reason I type 'elbow' is not because I think elbo is spelled that way, but rather it is an indication of how my 'speed typing' works. My fingers have a way of remembering commonly typed words, similar to how MS uses a word prediction feature in PocketPCs.
I use the letter 'o' followed by the letter 'w' so much that I end up typing 'ow' every time I type o. I backspace ALOT. Don't ask me why, but I end up typing 'spankish' instead of spanish alot heh.
In any case, it's not an indication that English is hard (tho it is...), it's an indication that I took too many shortcuts in optimizing how fast I can type.
"Derp de derp."
Please avoid blanket statements such as yours. Yes, seeing a specialist is a good idea, but not the only solution.
The SmartBoard has several benefits. First, like other ergo keyboards, it is split. I would love it if it were actually in two pieces so I could adjust the amount of split, but what it has works for me. Second, and more importantly in my mind, the keys are aligned vertically (like the Kenesis I believe) so your fingers don't need to stretch horizontally. This keeps your wrists from torquing so much and really feels much better to me.
It took a little getting used to, but after a weekend of using the SmartBoard I was back up to my regular 90 wpm (yes, a weekend). After a week, my speed was actually improving beyond what I could achieve before since it was easier to strike all the keys.
Within a couple weeks the pain had disappeared and has not returned. I still recommend exercise, taking breaks, better posture, keyboard and mouse trays, etc. The other nice thing about the SmartBoard is that it's $90 and has held up well to continued pounding. I'd also say it makes playing FPS games easier. :)
The downsides? The key click is quite a bit louder than other soft keyboards. This doesn't bother me, but if you're in a wide-open work environment, you may get complaints. Second, as I said I wish I could adjust the split. Other than that it has been a real joy.
In short, if you're avoiding seeing a specialist due to cost, don't compound your injury by doing nothing because you believe that "ergonomic keyboards are worthless." Instead, drop $90 and try one out. Hell, try a few out. Your continued ability to type is not worth senseless doubt.
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I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
The MS ergonomic keyboard *taught* me to type. This is no lie. I had been using computers since I was 6 or 7 years old...(Timex Sinclair, C64, etc)...and had never really learned to type. Instead, I had developed a semi-hunt-n-peck process that was not very efficient but it got me by.
Then about five years ago, I built a new computer and decided to pick up an MS Natural keyboard because I was starting to notice a little pain in my wrists after hours and hours of coding. So, I got the MS keyboard and immediately hated it. With it, your hands lay across the keyboard and obsure about 50 to 75% of the keys on the keyboard. Looking at the keyboard was now difficult, which is probably why many people dislike them. But, it did force me to stop using that visual crutch and start relying on muscle memory to find the keys.
Within a month or so, I had completely adapted and I could type 40 or 50 words per minute as a result. Now, I am reticent to use any other keyboard. I have MS Natural keyboards (and now MS optical mice) on almost every computer that I use. Ironically, almost all of those systems run Linux.
Amazing guitarist. Think it was CTS that he had, though it may have been tendonitis. He is kind of rare among guitarists who get RSI in that he got it in his right hand (he says it was from fingerpicks) rather than on the left hand, which is usually the one doing all the funky contortions. (reverse left and right if you'd prefer I talk in a southpaw-centric mode).
I don't think it's that you can't get RSI from playing musical instruments such as guitar; I think it's just that there are very very very few people who spend eight hours a day playing a guitar the way people spend eight hours a day clicking away at a keyboard.
just because you have not gotten carpal tunnel syndrome does not mean the gelpads are what prevented it. I have not been using any of those devices. regular keyboard, regular mousepad. No problems whatsoever. pretty much 8 hours a day or more for the past 6 or 7 years.
I switched from a standard QWERTY to an old-style MS-keyboard (which has now outlived three or four large project lifecycles and is underhand at this instant) and the difference was immense. It probably has a lot to do with body geometry. I have short arms and the QWERTY put a sharp kink in my wrists. I'd go numb playing FPS or doing long coding stretches. By elevating the back of the keyboard, dropping the front, and getting rid of the damn crick in the wrist due to the split and angled keypad, all of a sudden I stopped hurting. So, they are clearly NOT worthless to some of us in some situations.
./er too.... she hunted me up by my sig from the other side of hte country when I posted something... ;) ...and this is an entirely unsolicited testimonial, but I think they're great folks and do good things to help people who are really suffering and those who want to avoid suffering.
OTOH, I have a friend and her husband who both had pretty crippling RSI and as a consequence could not work for a while. This caused great stress. And then, like the survivor she is, she turned it into a business!
She became an expert (and I think a VAR or something) for Dragon and now helps people with extreme RSI, other handicaps, etc. setup voice command software systems. And the new generation are pretty damn impressive. Everyone from authors who just want to dictate to their systems, to medical and legal secretaries, to government offices looking to avoid future suits related to this kind of injury should take a visit to their website here and think about it.
I used some of the first gen speech reco/voice command stuff and you used to have to train it galore, always had a crappy mike, and it still performed badly. The new stuff without much training is pretty good, with a good mike and a little bit more training verges on awesome. I watched her sitting across the room from her laptop whacking out a story using MS-Word via voice command... pretty kewl beans!
Visit this link to find out a bit more about RSI and some ways to treat it, prevent it, etc.
And I know my lady pal is a
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
oh well. most microsoft hardware is logitech on the inside anyway :)
The old IBM 101's had great feel when typing on the keys but the fact you have to angle both wrists to use the keyboard (a big problem with standard layout keyboards in general) makes them not comfortable to use for long periods of time.
I like the Micorsoft Natural keyboards (despite the fact they do take some getting used to initially) because you keep your wrists straight when typing on this keyboard, which means you can type for long periods of time comfortably.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Question: how much do you have to pay to get the Kinesis keyboard you're using? The Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard is usually under US$40 (you can sometimes get the OEM versions at computer shows for just over US$20).
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
I'm an undergrad/grad student and research assistant. This means that if I'm not browsing the web, or writing a program for a class, then I'm writing a program for my research or writing another paper to be published. About a year and a half ago, I started getting pains in my wrists. Now mind you, I've been hacking for almost 10 years now, so I had the mind that "RSI is for pussies." Well, my advisor had a kinesis keyboard laying around. I don't intend this to be an advertisement for the company (just do a google search), BUT, ever since I got used to the keyboard, the pains have gone away. And I type much faster. I even bought one for home. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I cringe when I have to use a regular keyboard now, (1) because after about an hour or so, I my wrists hurt and (2) the position is just completely unnatural and you don't really realize it until you've been typing at a kinesis for a while. I've tried other "Natural" keyboards before and they don't hold a candle to kinesis. The down side is the low end model costs about $225. But I consider it to be worth the cost. I know it sounds like I'm plugging kinesis, so I'll also say that the way you type also matters, the level of your hands relative to the keyboard. I find that not resting my wrists on the desk helps, I use the arm rests on my chair to prop my elbows up and then I type with my hands above the keyboard with my wrists generally straight. Another good strategy is to take frequent breaks. Five minutes away from the keyboard every hour or so is not a bad thing and it will help you rest those weary hands.
Humorless sig goes here.
Doh. *just looked it up*
I coulda sworn elbow didn't have a w in it heh.
Well, okay: In this case it was a word I have habitually mispelled for the last 18 or so years.
However, most of my other typos can be explained that way....
*hides because he made an ass of himself on Slashdot again.*
"Derp de derp."
Yeah I know, just looked it up. I've been mispelling that word for years.
:)
And no, I'm not on crack, I just have more confidence in my ability to spell than I really deserve.
"Derp de derp."
When I received my new chair I no more back/neck aches but my wrists were totally wasted. I eventually figured out that the armrests on the chair were causing me to rest forward body weight on my wrists. This was due to the armrests not allowing the chair into the proper position relative to the desk. I think. 2 minute hack job later and the chair has no arms. Immediate posture and pain improvement.
Several years later (still the same lame desks ... I should call osha or my lawyer or something ...) my wrists are fine. So the moral of the story is : figure out what is causing YOUR problems. Don't just trust some shit hot human factors specialist if what they are suggesting doesn't feel correct.
Of course I did start climbing exercises during that time period as well. Added some heavy duty grip strength which I believe helped a lot. Those 1 lb. grip balls REI sells are good. Also look at Metolius rock rings
"There's no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and keep turning left." -- Bill Vukovich
An ergonomic keyboard alone won't help; you have to put your whole body into it. Pay attention to your neck and how far your mouse is, how straight your back is, etc. It may seem obvious, but it doesn't come into habit without effort. It's very helpful if you have a chair, desk, and monitor well suited to this. It's actually better if the monitor is low and pointing up at your face, and you keep your head pointing forward but your eyes looking down. It's less stress on your eyes.
Now how many companies make setups like this? You have to pay a pretty penny to get a perfect setup for yourself. It's much cheaper to make unhealthy stuff :) Especially when there's research involved into making healthy products.
Another good example is Dvorak vs. Qwerty. Dvorak is awesome. If you have pain in your arms, try learning Dvorak. It's pretty easy to learn and very efficient; you don't have to move your fingers very much to type. Most of the vowels are under your left finger tips, and must of the stuff you combine them with is under your right. You rarely have to hit keys below the home keys. But no one's going to teach it to you, and no one's going to sell your favorite keyboard in the Dvorak layout.
IMO, Apple's Adjustable Keyboard (the funky one that split) was the best. The best feature was the fact that the numeric keypad wasn't on the main keyboard (it was a separate ADB device) so you didn't have to reach so far to use your mouse. (heh, since I've started using USB macs, I have this nasty habit of smashing my mouse into the corner of my keyboard. I don't have a mousepad to keep me in check.). Mircosoft's ergo keyboard is bloody huge. I wish more people would sell small keyboards. I only need the numeric keypad for games. BTW, I actually had to give that keyboard to my brother who was developing a pretty bad RSI. He's better now that he uses that keyboard instead of a normal one.
It's actually healthier to use your left hand to control the mouse, so you don't have to stretch over the keypad (you lucky left-handed people you). It takes a bit of getting used to, of course.
Try this. Go to a mirror, and check the height of your shoulders. Chances are your right shoulder (for people who use the mouse on the right side) is much lower than your left shoulder. If you raise it to match you'll feel a bit of pain. The problem's probably worse if you drive a standard transmission car :P Good habits can prevent problems like that. You can apparently fix this by keeping your shoulders up (helpful to give your elbows support from a chair that has adjustable armrests).
Moderators should have to take a reading comprehension test.
First a little history lesson: The keyboard is layed out to be intentionally difficult to type on. It is an artifact of early typewriters, when more efficient (e.g. Dvorak) layouts were allowing people to type faster than the mechanical mechanisms could respond, and key jams were occuring. The solution was to lay the keyboard out differently to slow the typist down!
I use a standard keyboard with the tradition IBM style layout, and I will never experience RSI. Why? Because I simply use what I call the "modifed two finger hunt and peck" typing method. Modified because I will occasionally use other fingers, especially the thumb for the keyboard. I type as fast as my mother who was a secretary for thirty years, and I never, ever, ever have to worry about RSI.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
more important than the spatial arrangement of the keys (which is in itself an important factor AFTER this) is SPRING keyboard action vs RUBBER MEMBRANE keyboard action -- nothing else matters as much as that if you want to avoid RSI.
Dvorak on a good Spring Keyboard is the only way to go.
regards,
john
What sucks is when an employer 1)won't do an ergonomic evaluation and/or says it's too expensive, ineffective based on their studies, or some other excuse and 2)won't let you bring in your own keyboard/mouse and make yourself comfortable.
Fortunately that hasn't happened to me, but I know some people that are in very uncomfortable situations.
OSHA doesn't care. Bush struck down the law that made employers actually *do* stuff. It's a pain sometimes..no pun intended
I strongly believe working habits can make a *huge* difference, and be most of the problem or solution.
:-)
A few times in the past couple of years, I've worked with the keyboard in an odd orientation (off to one side, because I had other work front and center, or raised or lowered for other reasons), and it very quickly caused pain.
It's pretty simple to prove to yourself; just set your keyboard off to a 30 degree angle to your side, and work for an hour of intensive typing. You'll feel it
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
I started typing when I was in 7th grade, about 30 years ago, hunt and peck. About 3 years later, I learned touch typing. I have never had good posture. It type with my wrists pressed to the tabletop, resting, and I like chairs with arms. I've been told this is bad. But I sit however I like. When I entered college, I could type about 70wpm, and I can now type about 95wpm after about 20 years. For those same 20 years, I've probably typed an average of 8-10 hours a day every day, perhaps to include weekends, without any ill effects.
I reject any notion that posture or keyboard causes Carpal Tunnel problems, since it didn't in my case. Maybe I'm tempting fate by obseving this, but I doubt it.
Here's what I'd like to know: How many nerds were sports jocks growing up? I'm not talking about the kind that scored medals. I bowled for many years, but was a terrible bowler. Nevertheless, it was wrist exercise. I played tetherball, volleyball, and I swam a lot. In those same years as I was learning to type, I swam 3 miles a day 3 days a week for swim team. And at the same time, in gym, the horizontal bar (pull-ups, etc.) was my favorite device. When swimming, my coaches would complain that I rarely used my legs, where they said all energy was supposed to come from, but I preferred my arms, which felt stronger than my legs.
Now here's my guess: during the time that mattered, while I was young and still forming, I exercised whatever wrist muscle pathways in a way that formed large openings that have not been stressed from later typing. I think this is the reason I count myself immune to Carpal Tunnel problems today,when other friends have had them after much shorter times stressing.
I'd be interested to see stats correlating wrist exercises with carpal tunnel. My theory? Being a jock at certain sports early on is what makes you a good computer person later. But, of course, we find our jocks don't get trained mentally and our computer people don't get trained physically. And so we get the worst of both worlds. I'd love to see some stats on this. Or, failing that, some examples of either people who had very strong wrists from sports having Carpal Tunnel later, or else people who did not suffer from Carpal Tunnel and yet had no sports background.
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
I've always wondered if my unique method of typing is the reason why I don't suffer much from RSI despite being on a computer 10-12 hours a day. After reading some of the responses, though, I'm pretty sure it is...because the way I type, I keep my wrists and hands at a more natural angle on a standard keyboard. The downside is that I cannot type on a split keyboard at all. I also can't type as fast as a touch typist (~50wpm is my max), but for my job, that's not a big deal. And if someone moves my keyboard 1/2" to the right, it gets me completely screwed up until I move it back... ;-D
;) Half the "egronomic" stuff I've tried myself has either been really cumbersome, if not impossible, for me to use, or even more uncomfortable than my good old reliable square keyboard and mouse-shaped mouse... ;-)
(For those who are curious, I use a really warped version of "hunt and peck" typing, but without the "hunt" part...I already know where all the keys are and just type primarily with two fingers, the middle ones, with occasional help from the index fingers or ring fingers. This method keeps my wrists elevated and removed the up/down angle entirely, and keeps my hands mostly parallel with my arms. I also use my arms more than my wrists to strike the keys, which takes a lot of the load off the tendons in my wrists. It looks fairly cumbersome, and when people see me type for the first time, they usually ask "What the hell are you doing?", but I've been doing it for so long now that it seems perfectly natural to me. I've tried to learn to touch type, but never could do it...partly, I think, because my fingers are rather stubby, and partly because I have some fine motor control problems.)
I think when it comes to input devices, the right device is the one that feels the most natural to you. If it doesn't cause you any discomfort or pain over extended use and feels "right" to you, who gives a damn whether it's "officially" egronomic?
DennyK
I started to have problems with my wrists and fingers in typing about five years ago when I was working as a technical writer and writing books in the evenings and weekends. These pains were starting to interfere with my daily routine, and were being worr isome. I never got around to seeing a specialist, as the company I worked for collapsed and no one was retained. I'm much much better now.
I did the following things:
1) I switched mostly to using laptops for my typing, mostly Apple Powerbooks. The keybo ards require much less force than the majority of desktop keyboards I'm used to, plus putting the keyboard in my lap allowed me to drop my shoulders for better posture.
2) More frequent and short breaks from typing. If I'm not typing, or thinking, I'll d rop either or both arms and relax them down through the wrists, hands and fingers. I'll also stretch and flex the arms and hands, and take short walks, even if I never leave the area of my desk.
3) I took up music again after a few years off: I play a Chapman Stick which is a guitar/bass guitar-like instrument, played almost entirely by "hammer-on" tapping finger motions very similar to striking a keyboard (piano, or computer). By playing an instrument where I tap, but over a much wider area than on a computer keyboard, I'm exercising a wider and more varied range of motion of finger tapping than on a keyboard.
Like a lot of folks who said they were fine until some marathon gig at their computer, I hadn't experienced rsi until I spent two weeks solid typing day in and day out. Ordinarily, when I code, I'll type some code, compile, debug, type some more so most of my time is spent thinking not typing. The marathon typing session was something else.
About a week into the session, my wrists started flaring up. I could tell by looking and trying different wrist postures that the problem was that I wasn't using piano-teacher-perfect-wrist-posture. My wrists were bent at about 30 degrees instead of being ruler-flat. Knowing what's wrong and changing aren't necessarily synonymous so eventually I rigged up a sharp pencil and some velcro. The pencil was strapped across the back of my wrist so that if I bent my wrist at all, I'd get a poke to remind me to straighten my wrists. The poke was enough to correct my wrist posture and the correct posture made the pain go away.
Now, instead of sharp pencils, I use two keyboard wrist rests stacked one on the other so my wrists can't even think about bending. It looks a little odd but not as odd as pencils strapped to the back of my wrists.
If you're one who types all day and thinks rsi is imaginary because you haven't experienced it, think of yourself as more evolutionarily fit to join the typing pool. Either you have naturally perfect posture or your wrists are shaped in such a way that your tendons aren't chafed by typing.
Let's recap here. You're not an M.D. He is. Let's ask the crowd. Who do you believe?
I'll restate my position, which is:
The false sense of security a gadget and a little marketing material can provide, with the added bonus of the placebo effect, injures a lot of people. I mean A LOT of people.
Now, please, pay attention.
GET A DOCTOR. DON'T DO ANYTHING TO DIAGNOSE, OR TREAT, YOUR CONDITION THAT SHE DOESN'T TELL YOU TO DO.
Thank you.
We're on the road to Tycho.
You're not a counter-example to anything. All I'm saying is this:
Never use an ergonomic keyboard as a substitute for a doctor.
The false sense of security a gadget and a little marketing material can provide, with the added bonus of the placebo effect, injures a lot of people. I mean A LOT of people.
Now, please, pay attention.
If you suspect you're developing an RSI, don't wait, GET A DOCTOR. DON'T DO ANYTHING TO DIAGNOSE, OR TREAT, YOUR CONDITION THAT SHE DOESN'T TELL YOU TO DO.
As I've also pointed out, often times the substance of what they tell you is simple workplace ergonomics. But people get injured trying to treat themselves, and in a 1st world country there's no reason for that.
We're on the road to Tycho.
You missed the important part in your summary:
I was given two cortisone injections, an exercise regimen, and a piece of advice
OK, who thought this was flamebait? This guy is actually right.
Swimming in particular will release a lot of tension everywhere, but more importantly, your posture will be good, since all your back muscles (trapezius etc.) get such a good workout.
Swimming does wonders for me. Sitting in front of a computer all day without a break without any regular exercise, no matter how ergonomic my setup, causes problems.
Thank you.
What's wrong with you people. It wasn't flamebait, it was a statement of fact. I've had no problems, I can only attribute it to the fact that I actually get out and do OTHER things. Basketball, hockey, ultimate, tennis, swimming, WHATEVER, like I said before, ANYTHING!
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
the bottom of my MS Mouse says "LOGITECH" on it. good enough for you?
When I experienced first signs of RSI I changed to a Microsoft Natural Keyboard. Nothing changed. Then I adjusted desk, chair, and screen dimensions. Nothing changed. Things got worse. I spent approx. 500 euros on an excelent chair. Things stabilised, but the RSI remained.
So, I went to a specialist that got me back behind a keyboard through half a year of therapy. Later, he told me it wasn't him that cured me, but rather me changing my working attitude and generally adjusting my lifestyle and physical condition.
OK. This is the way it worked for me, but what's the morale more generally? RSIs are caused by (at least) four factors:
Workplace - Ergonomy of devices, chair, room temparature, etc.
Stress - Workload, attitude to work and leasure, etc.
Physical condition - Smoking, drinking, fast food, car driving, etc.
Individual - Some people do 14-hour days for years without a problem, while others suffer from CTS within months. (Live isn't fair!)
In my humble opinion, people who claim that "some inventor" could improve one device or another with such excelence that all other factors no longer matter simply don't know what they are talking about. My opinion: When you don't have a problem, don't bother - just be alert and don't ignore pain. When your wrists, shoulders, elbows or back DO hurt, then ACT. Go see a specialist, adjust your lifestyle, improve ergonomics.
Be pro active and you will safe yourself loads of pain, trouble and money in the long term.
The MS Natural Keyboard is really nice to use, much better than the typical straight, flat keyboard - this is a combination of the more natural, relaxed hand position and the big keys. Personally I find ordinary keyboards fiddly and klunky.
As far as mice go you want one on which you can rest your hand comfortably.
Much RSI is due to resting the forearms on the edge of the desk and of course those stupid desks with raised platforms for monitors among other idiocies. But some people do other stupid things like having the monitor off to the side, but the keyboard right in front of them.
There is also significant evidence that RSI is related to finger sensitivity and the maximum rate at which you can make small movements.
Try IKEA - get a trestle desk! Fully adjustable, cheap as chips (mine cost about 180 pounds with a sweet glass top) and they're environmentally sound!
It doesnt say 'computer desk' on it - but why should it?
Go for a wooden top and get out your jigsaw and you can create your own ergonomic curves to nestle under if you like.
Personally - I like to see my feet while I type!
Have you gotten professional help? Tell me you at least got some medical advice.
As I said, I don't doubt the modern keyboard could be considerably improved. But you lost me when you started contradicting the M.D.
Are you a doctor? Any medical training at all? Go ahead, surprise me.
My understanding is that Cortisone can alleviate an inflamation feedback process and, as in my case, it's useful when used in concert with things like exercise, workplace ergonomics, and better habits.
RSI is a very scary thing, and the will to believe is equally powerful.
It's a big mistake for you to put your trust in a keyboard company rather than a doctor you trust.
If your doctor tells you to get a datahand, knock yourself out. Otherwise, caveat emptor.
We're on the road to Tycho.
Muscles are single acting; they can pull but they cannot push. Joints are double acting; they are powered both ways. The secret is that muscles come in antagonistic pairs, one to flex the joint, and on the other side, one to extend it.
This is like the p-type and n-type transistors in CMOS. Turn on the n-type transistor to pull the output low. Turn on the p-type transistor to pull the output high. Both off at the same time for tri-state. Both on at the same time to short out the power supply and blow up the chip. In the human body, both muscles are off in the relaxed state. If both muscles are slightly on, this pre-stresses the tendons, taking up any slack, and effectively stiffening the joint. This is what you do for exacting fine work, e.g. embroidery or surgery. This is why such work is tiring, even when the external forces you exert are small. For ordinary work, you must coordinate your muscles so that they are non-overlapping.
When you type on a mechanical typewriter, you push hard. I've just been measuring my old Olivetti Lettera 22. The keyboard is open underneath so it is a simple matter to dangle an icecream tub underneath and fill it with water until the rachet clicks to advance the carriage. 1.12 kg. 17mm of key travel. (* 9.81 1.12 0.017) = 186mJ. If you are typing 30 four letter words a minute that is (* (/ 30 60.0) (+ 4 1) 0.186) = 0.464 W. It is not hard physical work.
1.12 kg, say 10N, feels like a lot if you are not used to it, but the significance lies elsewhere. It is way more than the force exerted by the relaxed tone in the muscles that control your finger. So to type a character you turn a flexor full on, and turn it back off again. The typewriter is geared at about 6 to 1, much like a piano, so the hammer is flying pretty fast. Its momentum slams it into the paper, making the impression and the rebound and the little coil spring in the typewriter bring your finger and the key back up. You literally never lift a finger. The springs in the machine lift your fingers for you. You can type with the extensor muscles relaxed all the time. Touch typing on a manual typewriter requires alot of coordination, but it does not require every kind of co-ordination. In particular you do not have to co-ordinate your flexors and extensors to avoid having them both on at the same time, because you never turn on your extensors at all.
A modern mouse is very different. If you just plonk your hand down on top of it you click all three buttons. You have to use you extensors to not click. When I restarted using a computer after a lengthy illness, I rapidly got pains in my arms, from holding my fingers off the mouse buttons all the time. I had to learn to be just tense enough to stop the natural curl of my fingers from clicking the buttons. What happens when I click a mouse button? What is supposed to happen is that the extensor is turned off then the flexor is turned on, then the flexor is turned off, then the extensor is turned back on, so that they don't overlap. I've not done any electro-myography, but I don't believe it is happening like that. Briefly relaxing a muscle that is kept tense most of the time is difficult and time consumming. I bet that the flexor is turned on hard to over come the extensor. How much damage does that do? It probably depends alot on the office environment. If you are generally relaxed and have only just enough tension in your extensors to avoid accidental mouse clicks, I cannot see it doing much harm. If work is fraught, and you tense up to avoid mistakes, beware. The forces exerted when your flexors and extensors are on at the same time add up internally, but cancel externally. You might think that you cannot be stressing your tendons because the switches have a light action and you are not exerting much force, but if that force is the difference between the force exerted by the flexor and the extensor, your tissues might be under a great deal of internal mechanical stress.
I suspect that much the same goes for a modern keyboard. You have to actively lift your fingers off the keys after the stroke. You don't have the option of flexor-only typing. So when work gets hectic and pressured, and your coordination is not 100%, you get flexors working harder to overcome extensors that are not being fully turned off, and lots of internal mechanical stress.
My theory is that these internal stresses are larger than with a clnky old mechanical typewriter and are the cause of RSI.
How can one find out if this theory is true? One way is to get a researcher interested enough in this theory to use electro-myography to find out if both muscles are indeed being turned on at the same time. Another way is to get a keyboard and a mouse with `heavy' long travel keys. This would make sense in a prospective study, in which you equip half a cohort of new users with the clunky mouse and key board, and follow up after five years to see who has RSI and who hasn't. It doesn't make much sense as a treatment. If you have learned to type on a light keyboard with your extensors turned on, the extra force needed to operate a heavier keyboard might be translated by habit into more activation of the extensors as well as more activation of the flexors. I cannot see a heavier keyboard in itself working as therapy, unless the sufferer can learn the flexor only typing technique it permits, and avoid falling back into flexor/extensor overlap habits when work gets hectic.
Though xmodmap will allow you to remap keys, if you get the Classic version of this keyboard you can reprogram any key on it directly in the keyboard. I've done this to swap Delete and Escape and it works great (and is completely OS independent ;))
Behold the Power of Cheese!
I don't have RSI, and especially not from typing. I use the regular old MS natural keyboard, but I'd used the standard kind for years before they were available.
I did, however, find that I do suffer from tendonitis in my right wrist - mainly from mousing. What I found helps best is to hold the mouse correctly. For the standard teardrop-ish Microsoft mouse, I keep my index finger on the button, and I clutch the base of the mouse under my thumb, not under my palm, or the heel of my hand. I found that this changed the angle at which I hold the mouse, and took the stress off the outside edge of my wrist, where it hurt the most.
I've even experimented with some adhesive and velcro - and on MY system, I have a little thumb-strap that fastens around my thumb, so I can keep the moust at the proper angle in relation to my hand.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It sounds like you had a terrible experience. Curious; are you talking about fusion surgery? In any case, chiropracters have their reputation for a reason. I totally agree that we need to be "informed consumers" with the medical profession - read everything you can, ask questions, and by all means seek 2nd and 3rd opinions about major issues, let alone if you have any doubt about what you're hearing. Finally, you absolutely have to shop around. Even in America, if you just pick a name out of the phone book you'll get terrible care. You have to ask people; read journals, make calls... Find out who people think is the best in the area and then ask them who the best is. The good thing is that, with insurance, the top 2% costs the same as the other 98% (within reason).
All that said, if it's you versus the M.D., I'll take the M.D. every time.
And are we even talking about that? Or are we really talking about a keyboard company versus the M.D.?
You must realize how ridiculous that sounds.
I suppose the keyboard maker took something like the businessman's equivalent of the hippocratic oath, except instead of "do no harm" it goes "sell as many as possible." There is no substitute for a qualified physician, and since most of us have insurance, there is no reason not to see one.
It is critically important that people understand that if they are having pain or numbness, they need to go get quality medical care right away. You're a fool to diagnose and treat yourself with something as important as this; you'll be prey to every opportunist with a gadget and a good story. And you desperately want to believe it, because you don't want the reality of a visit to a specialist. You want to replace your keyboard and have the problem go away.
The problem is that even if your symptoms are moderated by a keyboard or an office chair, you still have a problem. You're crazy not to have yourself under the care of a professional. Look at what you're fucking with! It's not worth it to screw around with something like this - it will end your professional life!
If your doctor tells you to go out and get keyboard X, Y, or Z, fine. But don't let denial and fear drive you to do something totally contrary to common sense. Certainly, don't try to pass off the justification that "all doctors are crooked" as a reason to avoid seeing a good specialist and doing what they tell you. Maybe you already realize how silly that sounds.
We're on the road to Tycho.
My buddy has one of those fancy-shmacy data hand keyboards w/ the DVORAK mapping. He types something like 120-150 wpm! He was a fellow sufferer of RSI but seems to be doing better. As for me, I shouldn't be typing this much... *owh* the M$FT elite kbd seems to not be doing the trick. Maybe the M$FT keyboard requires more force to press keys, causing more injury? Or do clicky kybds cause more injury due to the acceleration of the "click" action? Whatever, ill just have to get a speech recognizer and injure my vocal cords.
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
Actually, I don't blindly believe it. In addition to having a highly qualified and well-respected specialist tell me, it reflects my own experience and the experience of others that I know. That would, actually, be more or less the opposite of "blind." Unless by "blind" you mean I didn't ask your opinion.
I'm adamant about these things because people get hurt, even get their lives ruined, by avoiding the doctor and putting their faith in gadgets and the dreams of marketing executives.
I see you made up an anecdote meant to illustrate that the doctor is only treating the symptoms... Very amsuing, Dr. Undecidable. I can see why, too. If you just came out and said "these cheating RSI specialists never cure the disease, all they do is treat the symptoms," it would be much more obvious what a nut you're turning out to be. It doesn't bother me much; my 3-4 appointments were several years ago, and I bet, given your beliefs, you'll be seeing a specialist before I'll be back.
Going around telling people not to trust doctors, to try to diagnose and treat themselves, has consequences I hope you just haven't thought about yet.
If you were paying attention instead of shilling for the keyboard company of the week, you would have noticed that the substance of my experience is that I changed quite a bit: work habits, exercise routine, chair and desk setup, etc. You could say this is what made the difference, but I think it more accurrate to simply say "being under the care of a competent professional."
In other words, someone like you, except with years of ivy league medical school, decades of clinical experience, and a little common sense.
The really ironic thing about this is that I don't think you'd be denying the obvious quite so vehemently if you weren't really worried about all this, somewhere in the back of your mind...
Good luck yourself. Don't say I didn't try to warn you.
We're on the road to Tycho.
I'm sorry you feel my comments have hit a bit too close to home for comfort - in my experience it's a sign you're not very bright if a logical, reasoned response to your points strikes you as nasty. The truth often is.
Once again you misinterpret me so as to have something you can mount a sensible argument against. Speaking of backing off, my experience was that the keyboard manufacturer was not nearly as circumspect about the chance of improvement with their product as you now appear to be. Hence my warning - don't deal with the keyboard manufacturers. Deal with a doctor.
Of course, when I say keyboard manufacturers, I'm talking about companies like Datahand (as I mentioned in my original post), and you are talking about the Microsoft Natural keyboard - perhaps the difference is too subtle for you. But pressing on...
So you've read a bit on the issue outside the product brochures, eh? You didn't cite any sources, but let's speak hypothetically for a moment; so, keyboards don't help people who've developed a problem... they're a preventative measure, according to "your reading." Funny; that's not what one might take away from your original post. But do you want to tell the crowd how people know if it's too late for a keyboard to help them? Or perhaps you'd rather leave that too... a qualified physician?
I also appreciate your feigned ignorance about my point - very amusing. Here, let me spell it out for you, since it's no fair if you're too baffled to follow along, right?
Try to read slowly so as not to become confused.
You said:
You must realize you silly you sound:
10 You have behavour X
20 You become unhealthy.
30 You give doctor money to cure symptom of behavour X.
40 Your doctor tells you to continue behavour X.
50 goto 10
And I said:
I see you made up an anecdote meant to illustrate that the doctor is only treating the symptoms... Very amsuing, Dr. Undecidable. I can see why, too. If you just came out and said "these cheating RSI specialists never cure the disease, all they do is treat the symptoms," it would be much more obvious what a nut you're turning out to be. It doesn't bother me much; my 3-4 appointments were several years ago, and I bet, given your beliefs, you'll be seeing a specialist before I'll be back.
Focus. Concentrate. If it still seems confusing, maybe you should take a walk and them come back to the computer.
Where was I? Ah yes. You're accusing me of "backing off from my original statement." Right. This may save you some trouble. No matter how much you hammer away at this, it won't change the fact that all I've done is relay the advice of my (very good) physician.
What was your complaint about that again? Oh yes. That doctors are greedy liars who want you to stay sick so they can keep treating you. Or, perhaps it was that doctors don't know what they're doing and can't help you.
Ok. Anything else to add?
We're on the road to Tycho.
Ah yes. You're the guy who said
After abusing their body for 10+ years using poorly designed keyboards and improper positioning, etc., people that complain that the new ergonomic keyboard they purchased were a waste of money don't impress me with their wisdom. This is similar to abusing your body for 10+ years with junk food, and then complaining that it takes so long to lose weight and get into shape.
I can see that you actually didn't directly suggest keyboards will help cure RSI - you're just jumping in for the guy who did. Still; how do you know which keyboards are good for you and which aren't? Your answer: seems to be "ask the keyboard company." They feed you a line about the way the keys are positioned or the angle of the split, and you decide that it "makes sense to [you.]"
Yes, I remember now. Your point was:
So why do I believe that a "new-fangled" keyboard may be worth it? Two main reasons: my personal experience, and the fact that they just make more sense than an old keyboard.
So, on your side you have your own personal experience, plus the fact that it "just [makes] more sense." On my side, I have personal experience, and obviously what we believe makes sense to us, no matter what method we came by our beliefs, and... oh yes. A doctor.
Not satisfied yet, you even manage to point out the fact that there are no well done studies showing the benefits of the technology you are shilling for. It's just you and the keyboard company, asking us to take it on faith. And it makes sense to you, so it must be right, right?
Someone better notify the FDA and the AMA - this could revolutionize medical research. If it makes sense to Undecidable, I'm sure that we need not worry that there is no experimental verification, or if trained M.D.'s disagree. After all - he's very sure! And if anyone gets hurt by putting off a doctor's visit and using his or another miracle keyboard instead, he'll support them in their early retirment, too!
You will, won't you? What - you don't have malpractice insurance?
I'm sure you'll coyly pretend all this is going over your head, so I'll repeat myself even more plainly: in medicine, something is considered worthless until proven otherwise according to the standards of the medical community. A potential improvement, such as a better keyboard, is nothing more than potential - worthless (except in closely controlled clinical trials) until proven otherwise. Without these minor impediments to your argument, I doubt either of us would be alive, since at some point or another someone's "beliefs" probably would have killed either ourselves our one of our ancestors.
You know, even if you're right, and instead of seeing a doctor, we should all go get the ergonomic keyboard of our choice when we feel "small amounts of pain" - just like you did - how do you know which keyboards are actually ergonomic and which are just pretending to be?
Oh, right. Ask Dr. Undecidable! He's done some reading. He'll tell you what pains are small and what are not. He'll even tell you which keyboards are best. You don't even need to come in for a visit - he can do it all, right over the internet, with his powerful intuition! How small is a small amount of pain, doctor? When does small become large? At what point do you give up on the keyboards and decide you need to get help? Maybe if we're giving up too fast, we're just "complaining that it takes so long to lose weight and get into shape."
Oh, right. We should only go to the doctor when it's "serious."
ATTENTION EVERYONE: Dr. Undecidable HAS JUST DECIDED THAT YOU ONLY NEED TO GO SEE A SPECIALIST WHEN YOU HAVE A "SERIOUS RSI."
Where was I? Ah yes. I'm afraid I see a pattern here, Dr. Undecidable. You have a series of things you seem to do when attempting to argue. They fit into a pretty simple pattern, actually.
For the sake of brevity, I'm going to list your responses and then provide the appropriate numeric code. Since it's apparent that your rapacious intellect has already devoured and revolutionized RSI-related medical care, I'm sure keeping up with this minor abstraction will be no problem for you. When you next respond, feel free to simply use the numbers I've laid out rather than writing out new fallacies in full - it may save you some time.
Let's begin.
You're apologizing for something that I never said or expressed. 1
If you feel that I am misinterpreting your statements, then by all means, please point out how. I am not interested in having an argument just for the sake of arguing. 1
You didn't make it clear if you were referring to the previous trials with my doctors or yours. 1
No where did you state that you changed anything about the way you type. 1
You should share with us more about what changes you (or your doctor) thought were useful. 1
Which is it? Do your doctors feel that ergonomic keyboards are "worthless"? Or do they feel that they are a "part of the puzzle"? 2
The advice that you espouse in your original post was to seek professional help and basically do whatever they say. 2
And I don't believe that ergonomic keyboards are a worthless piece to the long-term solution puzzle. 3
Tell me something. Are you in politics?
-Dave
We're on the road to Tycho.
Oooh Ooooh Ahhh Ahhh.... 1, 2, and 3!
:)
We're on the road to Tycho.