Slashdot Mirror
Vertical Keyboard vs Carpal Tunnel
An anonymous reader sent us links to a quite strange vertical keyboard which also links to a study that claims that this is more ergonomic than your usual board. Of course
at $347 it also better make me coffee.
...if you can't spill coffee on the important bits.
Every cloud has a silver lining (except for the mushroom shaped ones, which have a lining of Iridium & Strontium 90)
Quote: The result? The SafetypeTM is the only keyboard proven in a Major University Study to virtually eliminate the high-stress postures that contribute to Repetitive Stress Injuries, such as Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.
My emphasis. This is always a big red flag. If it wasn't Podunk College, Thelma's Corner, AL, it would be named....
TODO: Something witty here...
For that much it should read my mind and type for me.
Hacker Media
Is it really the keyboard that causes carpal tunnel syndrome? I've been going with a regular keyboard since my first computer (~10 years), and I'm just fine. ;).
Maybe some people are just more prone to carpal tunnel than others. Maybe it's just really bad typing habits (or not, because I think mine are horrible
-kidlinux.
"So Unique this was awarded US Patent..."
They also awarded patents on how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and how to exercise a cat. What's your point?
Holy s-, it's Jesus!
I like this, now the palms of your hand are correctly aligned for the various tasks at hand...
Ok, the vertical keyb fixes the problem in the wrists etc
;) )
but what about having to keep your arms in the air, without being able to lay them on the desk or so to type (am i the only one that does this?)
And.. The central keys: When you are typing, do you punch them with your head to use them fastly?;) (watch the video, and think to that
Nah, i stick to the old first-designed keyb
i'm in front of a pc sometimes 24/24 (are we geeks or not), and the worst i had were big headaches because of a too low refresh rate of the monitor (problem solved by now)
I know that people tend to rest thier rists agains the desk, and this is a major source of carpal tunnel symptoms, but could the job be done with a mere 45 degree angle and maybe a hinge that allowed in to fold (to many degrees)? It seems as though gravity would take it's toll on your shoulders after keeping your hands in a vertical position 3 inches off the desk.
What bugs me about this keyboard is that the numeric keypad and the Insert/Delete/Home/etc. keys are in the middle. So when you want to use any of them you have to move your hand out and around or up and over. If they put those keys on the outside, I might consider buying one when the price gets down to, oh, less than you can buy a new (albeit bottom of the line) computer for.
-Alex
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
...since it was done before, supposedly by someone at Cornell University.
There's also the pyramid keyboard as well. I wonder how they compare...
libertarianswag.com
the Alternative Keyboard FAQ is here and has information about other kinds of keyboards.
also some news articles...
CU study: Vertical split keyboard lowers the injury risk for typists
Vertical Keyboard: the "Touch Easy."
...if you look at the site it says its the university of california at san diego (ucsd).
I can't seem to load it, but the "major university" seems like it may be Cornell... the link I can't load is labelled cornell.html anyway.
It must be this study
I don't know why they are playing this out to be some type of miracle keyboard when in fact each of their pages clearly states:
Note: The Safetype(TM) keyboard is not offered as a cure for any medical condition.
I know I won't be using their keyboard any time soon.
Remove the following keys:
Windows
Windows (on the other side)
Thing Next To Windows with the Arrow and menu thing(same side as above)
PrtScn
ScrLk
Pause
Home
End
Delete
Page Up
Page Down
Insert
UP arrow (But what about games??? you cry. Ever heard of WASD?)
DOWN arrow
LEFT arrow
RIGHT arrow
The whole friggin numeric keypad (this allows space for your mouse so you arm is not bent all over the side of your desk)
Finally, switch escape with caps lock (for all you friendly vi users), and optionally remove the function keys. Surprise! You now have a typewriter with shift, control, and alt. That's all ya need folks!The best part is...you can still use emacs! If you really need a numeric keyboard, you should be able to buy it separately.
Got friends?
Actually "the turning your wrists sideways to type" thing kind of makes sense in an engineering point of view.
Thinking way back to my statics class, the stress at any point in the beam is inversely proportional to the moment of inertia. Modeling your wrist as a rectangular beam 1" x 2", the moment of inertia is given by the formula .1667 inches ^ 4 to .6667 inches ^ 4. With a corresponding decrease in the stress on your wrists.
( b * h ^3 ) / 12
So turning your wrist sideways changes the moment of inertia from
However the actual stress savings will be less for the following reasons:
1. If your wrists are anything like mine, they are closer to being ellipses than rectangles, and concentrating more mass at the centers means that the turning sideways trick will make a smaller change in the moment of inertia. Also, measuring my wrists more closely, it looks like the values are 1.75" and 2.75". I just didn't want to dig out my calculator.
2. Whichever way you turn your wrists, they still have to handle the forces generated each time you push against a key. Think about "equal and opposite reaction" from one of Newton's laws.
I used a DataHand exclusively at work for over 3 years, after having experienced some RSI issues, and wrote many tens of thousands of lines of code using it.
It turned out that the DataHand didn't do nearly as much for me as getting out and exercising (yoga!) did. The DataHand actually encourages you to _not_ move your hands, which is actually a big negative when it comes to blood circulation issues. As a diabetic, blood circulation is actually a big deal.
The DataHand also proved stressful to my little fingers, which had to do a lot of side-to-side motions that one normally does not encounter.
If you like the DataHand, more power to you, but despite my very extensive experience with it, I am happier with a simple (and reliable) Microsoft Natural keyboard and exercise.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
If you watch their little video, they talk about some positions that normal keyboards force your hands to be in. It's those positions that cause all of the problems that are associated with typing. Their keyboard purports to remove the problems by putting your hands in a more natural and neutral position.
A little over a year ago, slashdot posted an article about the Evolution Keyboard, now by Kinesis. I have had one of those for several years, and would recommend that anyone interested in the SafeType keyboard also check out the Evolution keyboard. (You can the review I posted to slashdot here.)
The SafeType keyboard is fixed in position, and they consider that to be one of its major features. While I can see that preventing users from futzing with the keyboard keeps them from moving it to a position where it can hurt them, I happen to really like the ability of the Evolution keyboard to move to whatever position I like. In fact, I can make it go completely vertical if I want, gaining all the advantages of the SafeType keyboard. I can even drop it to the sides of my chair, removing even one more "unnatural" position of my arms.
To me, having lots of choices in how I configure my work space is a good thing. And having a keyboard that fits this mindset is one of the most important parts.
not this again -- it's been a year or so but a 'this funky keyboard will cure carpal tunnel' article always come up eventually.
Basically, ONE keyboard will never solve your carpal tunnel problems. carpal tunnel is a result of continous stress on specific parts of the wrist. and it is still not completely understood how to prevent it. i found that my moderate to severe wrist pain ceased when i started alternating keyboards. i use two: a regular keyboard and a Kinesis classic. by using these very different keyboards i work different muscles and distribute the stress throughout my hands which (in theory) prevents most harm from occuring.
Kinesis keyboards are sort of expensive but it is by far my favorite keyboard. took about a week to get used to (hint: be lazy, don't reach so far for keys). i got my boss to buy it ($275) for me after some mild whining.
fear is the mind killer
"Of course at $347 it also better make me coffee."
And mow my lawn, cuddle with my girlfriend after sex, make breakfast, and walk my dog!
Yeah, right... which university and how much were they paid? Ow, typing too much == pain == RSI == surgery. =(
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
rgr that, but i still have major RSI problems. i have that kbd, but i think that an adjustable sightly-angled keyboard would be better... im probably going to have to drop $1k on a Data Hand keyboard. =(
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
From the website:
:-)
"So unique it was awarded U.S. Patent #5137384"
As we all know, ideas must be completely unique in order to have the rare honor of being approved by the extremely stringent U.S. Patent office.
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
The video also goes to great lengths to explain why the angles our hands go on with a conventional keyboard are bad, but replaces this with a design which involves having your hands in the air constantly. WTF? Try using this for an full day.
After destroying several cheap plastic keyboards in succession, I got myself an IBM Model M, the original "clicky" keyboard. It uses buckling springs and capacitance switches, it's built like a tank, lasts forever, and its diswasher safe.
There is no other keyboard out there with the sweet tactile response of a Model M. They can be had for 15-20 bucks + shipping on E-Bay. One of the sellers offers them used, but protected with the old "keyboard condom" dust covers - get one of those, clean it up with some isopropyl and WD-40, and you'll have a keyboard that is in mint condition.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
I'm 5'9" (1.7 m) and 225lbs (100Kg). I've also been touch typing for about 25 years. Now....everyone play along with this and find out where your neutral position is. I'll bet it's probably not the same as mine.
... my arms more like a V than parallel. I measured it, and the most comfortable position is my fingertips about 4 inches (10cm) apart.
First off, let's assume that the vertical position of your hands is actually better.
Place your hands like the one's in the picture of the Safetype keyboard. Now, when I do this, I feel a pressure in my sholders suggesting that my hands should be closer together
Now, look at your hands and wiggle your fingers as if you were typing. When I do this, my fingers are curled and move towards and away from me, not on the side like the Safetype keyboard. Except for my thumb, it moves up and down. Even neater.
So, my 10 minute research suggests that they take their keyboard and rotate it away from the body, and allow the user to control the distance between the two halves. Also, move the space bar, and maybe a few other keys like caps and esc to the top for the thumbs. THAT would be more ergonomic than the contraption they have.
The only drawback I can see, and the Safetype keyboard would have the same problem, is that my hands rest on the outside edges. I would guess that this would be very irritating after awhile.
Can I have my government grant now????
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
For $347, it better make me crack.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
When people put their hands to the keyboard, they'll find that their fingers are like mirror opposites. Yet the keys line up in one direction. To see what I mean, look at r f v and u j m. f and j are up above v and m, and to the left. I believe that f and j should be up and to the centre. When your hands are on the keyboard, the fingers will naturally reach up to the centre.
This won't help everybody, because many people are happy with their keyboards, but it will help some people. I'm sure that my idea won't hurt anybody. That's for sure.
testing out my trending skills
Have your keyboard in the natural ass-scratching position.
(and make one for under $20)
I didn't know Major University Studies were typically capitalized. Unless it's an important Study, I guess. I didn't catch in the ad which, precisely, university (University?) it was.
Besides, haven't there been vertical keyboards around for a while?
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
but more with posture than the keyboards.
And it generally takes a long time to develop.
A lot of people who think they have carpal tunnel syndrom have tendonitis.. and really just need some exercise.
Lift a few freeweights once or twice a week, it makes a HUGE difference to your typing endurance.
You're right, Caps Lock is no longer useful for trolling slashdot, now that it has lameness filters. Remove the key.
Regarding left handed people, you might notice that there's still the whole right side of the board intact, brought to you by the letters I, J, K, and L.
Got friends?
Looks pretty comfortable for the wrists, but I bet holding your hands up in the air like that would shift the problems up to your shoulders and back. You would need like a 3-inch tall wrist rest in front of it, which would have to be nicely padded because you would be leaning on the bones rather than the undersides... Think I'll hold off on this one (even if it is unique enough to get a patent).
... but largely becuase my grandfather did some of the seminal work on it and coined the term: ;-)
0 7/qid=1023537597/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/202-7462303-9 644620
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/04120780
But yeah, there's a lot of crap out there.
Is a moderate mechanical response; a gentle but reassuring clackety-clack when I press the keys.
That's something we haven't had since when, the XT keyboards? All this membrane bollocks is so impersonal.
I don't need new layouts, I need a back to basics keyboard...
Blearf. Blearf, I say.