Slashdot Mirror
NASA to Investigate Hydrinos
An Anonymous Coward writes "A new NASA program might once and for all settle the "hydrino" question. The concept of the hydrino -- hydrogen shrunk below its normal state with the resulting release of extreme ultraviolet light -- has been derided by the physics establishment and surprisingly embraced by many engineers and people with deep pockets. Slashdot hashed the hydrino pretty vigorously in December 1999. Now NASA is funding independent research into making a rocket from this novel idea. If it works, we could be seeing a sea change in physics. If it fails, hydrinos might finally just float away. There's an active study group of several hundred users (including some prominent scientists) devoted to debating the possible existence of hydrinos. In many ways it sprang from slashdot."
The concept of the hydrino -- hydrogen shrunk below its normal state
Sounds like a hydrogen atom took a dip in a cold swimming pool...
Oh wait...
I'm still waiting for them to explain why rockets work in space. It IS still a vacuum right?
My other comp. is a Cadillac.
...among NASA engineers? I get the feeling there is tension between scientists and engineers there.
-- SIGFPE
It seems to me that NASA thinks anything could be used as propulsion for craft, not that they are at all wrong. Physics is a great thing, and it opens up new doors all the time. Things like this, ion propulsion, and solar sails are bitchen ideas. What I'd like to see, though, is a manned Mars mission launched from a couple of 2L soda bottles in my back yard. Let's see them do that!
My first thought was the Schrodinger equation - it can be solved for Hydrogen.
Question 1 : Are hydrinos possible according to the Schrodinger equation?
Question 2 : If not, what changes to Schrodinger are needed to explain hydrinos and are these changes consistent with the rest of physics?
(Question 0 : Or am I smoking crack again?)
The only hits on Schrodinger and Hydrino were from the blacklight people and they seemed to skirt around the question.
Anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence will stand clear of concepts that sprung from someone's "Grand Unified Theory". Einstien looked for it his whole career with no success.
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
Hmm, last I heard NASA was still focusing on ion emissions as the "future of propulsion."
If that hasn't been dismissed yet, I might suspect that they're spreading themselves a mite thin...
This is almost as cool as the reasearch being done at Betavoltaic. I hear the betavolt people are getting NASA funding too. I really hope we see some of the results of all this great research.
"...In many ways it sprang from slashdot." Because copying a story makes you responsible for the discovery of a theory that breaks modern physics.
If these hydrinos can be compressed, they would make the ideal environmentally friendly automobile fuel! And then we could tell the middle east to go fuck itself!!
Just because NASA gives money to somebody to research something doesn't mean it's not a crackpot idea. They set up a project to try to verify Podkletnov's horse manure, too, didn't they?
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
Sounds reminiscent of muon-catalyzed fusion. The muon has the same charge as an electron, but is many times more massive. Substitute a muon for an electron, and the "orbit" around the nucleus is much smaller. Enough smaller that it's not tough to get "muonized" hydrogen to fuse.
Unfortunately, muons decay rather quickly, and it take more energy to make them than you get from the fusion.
But the hydrino idea still reminds me of it.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Some tests will be done, we'll read a few more cheap one page articles, and then never here from these guys again.
... with the so-called inventor eventually fading into nothingness.
Just like Maurice Ward, the inventor of "starlite" plastic. Anyone remember him? He typifies how these "magic" discoveries turn out
Basically, the crackpot theory says that, "Well, if Hydrogen in the n=1 state has an energy of -13.6eV, and if energy goes as 1/n^2, then if I make n=1/2, that's 30.8 eV per hydrogen in free energy!!"
That's all this theory is, folks, I promise.
This is impossible. Why don't we see this energy signature anywhere in nature? How would the energy get back into the Hydrogen atom? What's to prevent the atom from collapsing into n=1/(infinity). If I can make n (the energy level) arbitrarily close to zero, I can get an infinite amotn of energy out of each atom!
It's kinda like tying a marble to a string and dropping it to a black hole - i can get infinite energy by tying the string to a generator. Except in the caser of hydrogen it's actually not possible.
The uncertaintly principle is a well proved physical theory that would have to be seriously (and impossibly) violated for this guy's crackpot theories to work.
Maybe next time.
There's an active study group of several hundred users (including some prominent scientists) devoted to debating the possible existence of hydrinos. In many ways it sprang from slashdot.
While I lack the knowledge to state wheather or not that's a true statement, I'm glad that Slashdot is making waves in the scientific community - even if they are small waves.
Strange how we've never spotted the emission line corresponding to transitions to this below-ground-state in the hydrogen spectrum, isn't it?
Strange how a bunch of perpetual motion merchants wave Quantum Mechanics around the place for the explanation of how their gadget works. Sometimes. When no actual physicists are looking, but often when potential investors are around.
Strange how many cranks the NASA Breakthrough Physics Program gives respectability to. NASA's least-funded irrelevant sideshow picks up every nut that comes along, investigates their claim, and nothing comes of it. Nut carries on with career saying 'Yep, NASA were interested, and then they covered it up! Big oil interests leaning on the gub'mint, see, don't care for the little guy, with one of these you could be rich!'
I suppose NASA have to be doing something Trekkish - the man in the street expects them to be working towards the Starship Enterprise, after all. Just a shame about the fallout.
Personally, I'm backing Schrodinger to win this one :-)
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
This is the first I've heard of hydrino's, but the quantum states of hydrogen were solved a long time ago, and there's no room in there for any kind of "shrunk" atom if it is to consist of a proton and an electron.
Energy: time to change the picture.
A simple way to look at the hydrogen atom from quantum theory point of view is this:
Quantum mechanics says, that in order to confine anything (here electron), you need to give momentum which increases as you shrink confinement radius. Who supplies the necessary momentum to confine electron in an atom? It is electrical attraction force between proton and electron. However, the enery needed for momentum increases as square of 1/r, while the amount of enery you can generate from electrical attraction only increases as 1/r. There is a balance at some value of r, and that is the radius of hydrogen atom.
Now, if you want to shrink hydrogen radius further, you would need to SUPPLY more enery to it, rather than being able to get from it. What complex quantum mechanics equation says is that there is no stable radius below ground level. But even if there is a stable radius below ground level, you still cannot get enery by compressing hydrogen atom. It is like a spring. If it is stretched, then you can retrieve energy by slowly retracting it. But that doesn't mean you can get energy out by compressing an unstretched string.
After so many years, Mills still cannot show the hydrino/blacklight whatever/ is not a crackpot idea.
Even according to their own website, I cannot see a single reference of the work being accepted by any reputable scientific journal. (Well, submitted to an IEEE journal is nothing. Rejection process typically takes about 6 months. With so many tech reports, they can keep on submitting and pretending they are doing something.)
Osheroff is right. It's crackpottery.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
This is neat, I never knew what a hydrino was before today.
The concept of a hydrino, sounds an awful lot like the concept behind minituration in the book/film Fantastic Voyage. Do I got it right?
If I understand the fundamental notion behind "hydrinos" correctly, then an even wilder potential consequence may be possible. Quantum Physics generally describes an electron in orbit as "waving" its way around the nucleus. Depending upon how excited is the electron, it may make many oscillations in a single orbit -- and when the electron is at the ground state, it makes exactly one oscillation. In a hydrino, the notion seems to be that an electron can make two orbits (or more) per oscillation. Personally I don't see a flaw in that notion, per se, but then I am no expert in Quantum Physics. BUT suppose for a moment that there is something to this hydrino notion. Obviously for an electron to do two orbits during one oscillation, the physical size of the orbit has to have a smaller radius than when the electron is in the ground-state orbit. So, if we can get two or more orbits per oscillation, then perhaps we can get, say, two hundred orbits per oscillation. That would shrink the physical size of a hydrogen atom to about the same size as a "muonic hydrogen atom". And we know that if deuterium is used in place of hydrogen, and if the atom is muonic, then nuclear fusion can be catalyzed! I think this would be a much better acid test for the hydrino hypothesis, than building a rocket engine.
From the FAQ:
Why aren't we awash in hydrinos and why haven't they been seen before?
Hydrinos have a number of properties that make them difficult to detect:
Free hydrinos diffuse out of containers very easily, as the largest of the species (n=1/2) is about the size of helium. Further, hydrinos are auto-catalytic: with the appropriate concentration maintained they will collapse to n=1/100 or so, at which size they will diffuse rapidly out of practically any container. Hydrinos can slip right in between the atoms of solids, including the atoms f container walls.
Being extremely light, they rapidly float up into the atmosphere and diffuse into space.
The conditions for hydrino production, that is, collision between free H and a system with a resonant "energy hole" (e.g., K+ and K2+) at low concentrations, are not common on Earth. Free H is extremely reactive and therefore difficult to keep free.
No one has been looking for them.
Veramocor
At first glance, I thought it said "NASA to Investigate Hubris."
I don't need large brains to have a good time.
I see a small problem here. What is described as hydrino violates some of the basic principles of quantum mechanics. There is nothing especially wrong with that except:
A) For nearly a century pople have been looking at and working with the QM.
B) Can you guess how many experiments disagree with QM? Anyone? That's right. ZERO. In almost a century we have been unable to find a single experiment that does not follow QM. Einstein spend a lot of energy (pun intended) trying to disprove QM. In that regard QM is the most successful theory in history of human race (so far). Even General Relativity is an approximation (Order beta^2 if I remember properly, where beta = v/c).
If you only take the electro-magnetic force into account, then it's impossible. If you introduce some other force, it's possible. Some atoms, such as Kr-81 can actually partly "collapse" - it's called "electron capture" and is caused by the Weak Force. This is not possible for hydrogen, because the resulting neutron would be heavier that the original atom. We don't know any such force that would result in a lower energetic state for hydrogen.
Pull my finger.
Lump lingered last in line for brains, and the ones she got were sorta rotten and insane.
Hmm, someone baiting all the slashdotters with a simple question where half of us will wonder if the question is serious and the other half with will slap our foreheads and go 'fuck me this is stupid!'.
I'll put myself in the latter group.
Is this www.adequacy.org? Is this an attempt at the ultimate troll in the latest 'NASA' article on slashdot?
Sigh...
At the time of my post, 'FakePlasticMe' has posted 4 post, all of them score 1 with the exceptio of this one.
Only due to the combination of crack smoking moderators and troll-making posters can such an event come about such as 'FakePlasticMe' getting a score 5 on a troll post.
Not that I'm surprised. I know this. Many others know this. It's the light and way. Post early, post often... you'll get modded up. Post something right and true, you'll get zero responses and no moderations. Post something dumb-shit/troll/etc, and hello!
perhaps if we find some hydrinos, we could combine them with some dryinos and get pure energy?
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
I'm afraid that I've read & encountered a lot of bizarre cranks because I find them interesting, and a lot more of them are engineers than scientists. Doctors are also a more credulous group than you would expect.
I think it may be because these are very bright educated people, but who may not have some fairly important intellectual tools, and don't know what they're missing. Consequently you have doctors & engineers who fall for chain letters, or cold fusion, or data compression in excess of a hundred percent.
It's also easy to find engineers & doctors arguing for perpetual motion, squaring the circle, or trisecting an angle with a compass & straightedge.
Venture capitalists, on the other hand, don't have to be as bright or educated as engineers or doctors, and we probably shouldn't talk about software "engineers" here, either. (Hey, I don't have any degree at all.)
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
It was Al Gore.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
If electrons really were an "orbitsphere", then how could you explain the results of Clinton Davisson and Lester Germer from the 1920's? Their experiment of firing an electron beam at a piece of nickel and watching the resulting electrons bounce off and on to a photoelectric plate showed an INTERFERENCE pattern. Such a result could only be attained if the electrons exhibited wave-like properties. And in the world of matter (unlike photons) the wave is actually another way of describing the probability of the electron existing in any given position in space.
ESSPLAIN DIS WIHTOUT QM, BEATCH!
The BlackLight Rocket link on Wired isn't slashdotted, it's just wrong. Here's the real page and a much more informative writeup of the whole concept at space.com, April 2000 , where Wired seems to have gotten most of their story. Sigh.
I am curious to know how much energy this system would produce *if* it worked compared to other sources of energy such as fossil fuels, fission, fusion.
Thanks
Park compares attempting to go below the ground state to trying to travel "south of the South Pole."
...check it this thug here's about to phucken wreck it!
And what happens when you reach the southpole and keep going south? You end up travelling north again right...using this analogy, what happens when you try to go below the ground state? You end up exciting the electron and getting the energy they claim is possible with a "hydrino."
I've read everything that's come out of BLP for the last four years. I suggest this paper for starters, as it's the most compact statement Mills has made on CQM to date. Mills ideas are elegant and simple. Oh, and CQM reasonably explains electron spin in a completely clear way, something standard quantum mechanics hasn't managed. You'll find further papers here.
In any case, it might not matter if anyone 'believes' in hydrinos. BLP has developed materials with novel properties through the BLP process, and they'll get these materials to market long before mainstream physics even begins to take CQM seriously.
Go see what they've done, and if you can, come up with a better explanation for the results of BLP's experiments -- all of them. If you come up with a reasonable alternate explanation (besides "it's a hoax" or "they're just really bad scientists") then by all means come join the Hydrino Study Group.
In case this question is serious, which is a definite possibility considering most people are scientifically illiterate...
You have the common misconception that a rocket works by pushing against the ground and the air in the atmosphere. This is not how it works.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The rocket moves forward as a reaction to mass being thrown in the opposite direction.
Imagine being on a low friction surface such as a slippery ice, and throwing something heavy away. You would be propelled in the opposite direction.
| sed 's/nucleuses/nuclei/g'
This sure sounds like Cold Fusion/Red Mercury to me.
It would be so cool if this worked because then NASA could run an ad asking people to support their funding and show them taking people on tour of a space shuttle...only to find a little black rocket where the engine should be.
Of course the Genuity people probably would have something to say about that...
This guy maybe totally wrong but at least he is actually saying no I will try something else.. What if plank or einstein had never assume quantisation (ignoring boltzman and some statistical mecahnics) they assumed something everybody thought at the time was nuts. Now every physics student learns QM.
Maybe in 2102 we will look back and say wow those QM papers were silly
Just the other day I was reading a paper by our favorite fringe scientist Dr Puthoff. Unlike most scientists, he gets to speculate about earth shattering possibilities with no basis but how valuable it would be if it was true. So he has a fun job. [He might get lucky one day and then we'll all be eating crow!]
In the paper he was talking about his new favorite topic, Zero Point Energy. ZPE is the natural energy of the vacuum that is required by QM to exist in order to satisfy the Uncertainty principle. Direct evidence of ZPE was shown a long time ago by a guy named Casimir, who has an effect named after him. Casimir reasoned that if you take two metal plates and put them next to each other with a small enough gap, parts of the frequencies of the zero point virtual particles wouldnt be able to 'virtually exist' because the gap was smaller than their wavelength, so the net effect is that the plates will be pulled together by the imbalance in virtual energy in the gap. And in fact this is well established fact.
Now the ZPE guys say you can somehow harness this effect to get energy. The most brilliant idea is that maybe what holds the electron in its orbit is actually zero point energy being tapped by the electron in an analogous way as the Casimir effect. The electron effectively creates a region too narrow for all the frequencies of the vacuum to fit, so there is an energy differential which exactly holds the electron in orbit (where classical theory states it will eventually spiral into the nucleus).
It is possible that this is true; Quantum mechanics describes how the atom works, but not why it works that way. This theory gives an explanation for that behavior.
I believe it is this same theory that hydrinos are based upon; if you can manipulate the field near the nucleus of the atom just so, you may be able to find an new viable energy state for the atom, and in the transition, get some of the ZPE for free.
This is a very exciting theory. Its the kind that makes you say Nobel Prize to the mirror. And of course thats the kind of stuff that these sorts of scientists are drawn to. Its like crack for them. And Mr Puthoff job is entirely to entertain these sorts of ideas. Good job if you can get it!
There are no hydrinos for sale on eBay, so I guess those deep pockets bought them all already.
There's just an anti-"we already know everything" culture at NASA.
Take away all the science mumbo-jumbo and look at the working prototypes!
...Can I build a steam generator out of it and produce electricity cheaper!
All I want to know is
Maybe their science is good, maybe bad. I don't care, I just want cheap clean electricity without frying my gonads.
Gizmos Gagets For Ninjas
After so many years, Mills still cannot show the hydrino/blacklight whatever/ is not a crackpot idea
Double negatives often make even simple points undecipherable. Try this:
After so many years, Mills still cannot verify his claims.
Or:
..Mills crackpot idea remains unverified.
Unfortunately, muons decay rather quickly, and it take more energy to make them than you get from the fusion
IIRC a bigger problem with MCF was the muons' tendency to stick to the fast (higher-charged) helium resulting from fusion, thus geting the muons out of the De-Tr mixture and reducing efficiency.
but as someone else said, MCF was a very plausible scientific/engineering idea at the time. This hydrino thing is something out of a crack-pipe.
Working for necessity's mother.
I'm not good in physics, and thus reading the papers will give me little more than a headache.
But I read from the site that the process makes "proprietary novel materials". What are these exactly, can someone explain, or at least what kind of materials might be novel in this sense (unknown word to me)?
To get DILITHIUM
Hydrinos do actually exist! And at the Hylam-Duncan-Lark Institute for the Advancement of Manufacturing Processes, we have verified it!
By using the classical definition of quantum mechanics, we were able to extrapolate the existence of a wave state where 1/r is actually greater than phi squared. The derivation is an elegant and trivial consequence of the application of elementary linear algebra. Using this hypothesis and a simple adherence to the Junkstan-Fox principle, we were able to create an inverse quantum phase inhibitor. We were able to use the inhibitor to channel antiprotons into a particle accelerator where they transmuted into base-level-three tachyons by the Morgrik-Terrac empathic effect.
As part of a practical demonstration, we took our test apparatus and aimed the chamber emitter at our target, which was a large $100 bill. The end result was hydrinos impregnated into a rendering of Ben Franklin.
So you see, its all very simple, once you understand the basics as I have just explained them.
You do understand, of course? I mean, any CHILD could understand this.
Good! Now where was that million-dollar check you were starting to write to us before mean-old doubt started creeping in?
er like thinks stinkes like pooo. la la la la. poo pooo po, i am a vored infant who is gettin bored doing crappy sholiastic projects
Shouldn't that be "Neuclei"?
Was this funded by the bush administration? If so shouldn't it be "Nuculuses"?
"research" papers like this really piss me off. As a nuclear physicist, I hold people to the highest standards when it comes to research and this organization clearly waves their hands around with extreme carelessness. The sad part is how so many people invest into this organization and desperately cling onto the idea because of the wild applicable claims made. For one, Quantum mechanics isn't a silly tool of physicists. It's be proved and proved again. I use it on a daily basis for explaining very complex nuclei to a incredible precision of 0.5%. That's not luck gentlemen. As far as the hydrogen atom, relativistic QM along with Quantum Electrodynamics gives all the states, energy eigenvalues of those states, zeeman shifts of those states when put in a magnetic field, the stark shifts when put in a electric field, etc..... and it's so accurate, there is virtually no error. These blacklight people are just simply foolish. Even their explanation of things sound foolish. The way they described a few processes completely violate all logic, common sense, and physics as we know it. In fact if their proposal is true (in the manner they've described it), the world of physics will become infintely more complex (because all humann reasoning will be invalid). Us physicist aren't opposed to this idea because it goes against what we currently know, we are against it because all of it's implications ultimately mean that all of our present physics is wrong. That's a bit of a bold statement to make considering how accurate we can predict things these days. Plus these guys are behind times, they go as far to say that QM hasn't done anything since the atomic bomb. WHAT A CROCK. That's just a ridiculous lie. I can't even begin what huge advances have been made due to QM since the atomic bomb.
All in all, these guys are either complete idiots, or know how to get rich off of other idiots.
Well, when you do such a thing, you need to do QA in order to verify that the UV emission is indeed what you were looking for.
Sometimes, you just screw up when you find that the UV emission you imagined, was just your fancy room light, and not a revolutionary cold fusion by-product.
That's still hydrogen becoming solid. And yes, it is metallic. Remember, Hydrogen sits on both sides of the periodic table.
You will note I said "Most expensive commercially available substance."
Last I checked, you cannot purchase antimatter.
You CAN, however, easily purchase tritium.
See the spectra in this paper, for example:
l iu m_Heat%20PCCP%208_24_01SV.pdf
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/He
Do a little research before you post, meringuoid.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
What do you find incorrect in the Wired article? It's author is the same as the space.com article you linked to.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
How is it not WRONG to extract a portion of that $75K from me, at gun point, just so they can hand it over to one of their crackpot friends?
Tell me where I can mail you your penny so that you can be richly compensated for your portion. I'll even eat the 3400% overhead for the stamp just to keep you happy and not stocking up guns and canned food goods for the coming revolution.
Do you think the Borg uses this to make the Omega particle?