Slashdot Mirror
UK Reconsiders Expansion of Surveillance Powers
davecl writes "BBC News Online is reporting that the plans to allow a vast range of bodies to access email and phone records have now been shelved. They seem to have been surprised by the depth and breadth of opposition. The measures may surface again after November in the new session of parliament, but they'll be taking it much more seriously then. Looks like we may have scored a notable success here, but continued vigilance will be needed."
I normally dislike Conservatives, but the fact the the Conservative peers in the House of Lords were determined not to let the amendment pass in any form reaffirms my faith in the political system. Well, for the next 5 minutes anyway. :)
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
"We believe we got it wrong and we need to address fears people have." I give Mr Blunkett credit for taking that stance.
Your mammas flamebait.
"The government had cited the investigation of benefit fraud rings and pirate radio stations as two examples where the new powers would be used."
About time! Pirate radio stations has been a scourge to this country for too long I tell you, TOO LONG!
What will this mean to the censors like Michael of slashdot?
Don't mod me, bro'!!!!
..this just means they're going to call it something different and pass it without telling us, but at least they said they were wrong, it's not often they do that.
The current government seem to be a bunch of control freaks. Gatsos, cameras everywhere, monitoring email, RIP etc.
I actually voted for them at the last election to make sure that the Conservatives were kicked out, but not again. I realised the other day that I was agreeing with some of the things the Conservative politicians were saying. It made me feel dirty. I'll be voting Liberal from now on.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
but I dont need to know about it. I know there are secret government organizations monitoring what we all do, but I can;t prove that and they don't tell me, so its ignorant bliss. They are gooing to do it anyways, just don't tell me, and I will stay happy. (But I still don't want them to do it....)
Great Linux Site
I have been getting increasingly worried about the fact that Labour can do what they like seemingly unopposed because a) they have a rediculous majority in the House and b) the opposition simply don't have a clue. It is a great relief that democracy worked in this case.
I raise my glass to all who, like myself, contacted their MP's and raised a stink.
EtF.
Hold on a minute, I've got my surprised look around here somewhere...um, just a second... (Insert sounds of rumaging here.) Oh, here it is.
(GASP!) You mean people didn't -like- the idea of having their privacy invaded? I'm shocked! [But mostly not.]
Sheesh.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
Its important to note that the plans have only been put off till Novemeber. Yes, the Government was a little shocked by the ammount of attention the changes to the RIP act got. But putting it off till November isnt likely to be about re-writing the changes, but more likely to give the government time to smooth the waters over with MP's so that come November no one notices when its voted on and passed.
The RIP act should be over turned completly, not expanded in any way shape or form.
"Enlightenment is your ego's biggest disappointment." --Yoginanda
Equally, it was interesting to hear of the FBI agent who accidentally dumped sniffed al quaida emails when he(she?) realized that unauthorized private emails had been recorded.
While I'm very much concerned about some of the responses post sept 11, when I read the statutes, they were(e.g.) quite explicit about granting authority to read *headers*.
Mostly I think these folks are acting in good faith and often the biggest headlines originate in things that are still 1/2 baked on release.
'course software can be like that also
Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
bsds are of course just BSD
David Blunkett has a method of getting what he wants:
1) Propose draconian unworkable legislation.
2) Await the huge opposion.
3) Retract the proposal and quickly pass original intended less-severe version while everyone is celebrating victory.
I'm serious, keep your eye on him. We must not let this sort of thing pass in ANY FORM. A single miniscule step in the wrong direction is too far. I will be continuing to push for the original unmodified act to be cut down to size also. I suggest you do the same if you live in the UK.
I guess we're gonna get this eventually, all we can really hope for is that they put some reasonable measures for oversight in place.
I don't like being spied on, but I'll be 'slightly' happier if I know some independant body is making sure that my list of favourite porn sites doesn't get in just anyones hands....
I like this line best:
"Mr Blunkett's son Hugh, who works in computers, is understood to have briefed his father on privacy fears associated with the original proposals. "
Noteworthy that a geek should teach a politician about privacy - an integral part of modern democracy.
"Hello Farmer Bob"
"Goodmorning Pat"
"I've just been reading your email to check if you're a terrorist."
Online surveillance is quite a hot topic and requires dilligence on all parties to maintain our privacy. My only concern is that we must not as a online community support or at least condone certain behaviour by not speaking against it. What I am talking about is especially exploitive content and primarily kiddie pr0n. We only help these peddlers of deviancy if we don't actively speak out against it and support efforts to curb child exploitation. I am in favour of privacy rights, but we should not shield the wrong people. I want privacy for those who respect the rights of others.
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -Tom Waits
I hope this comment is meant to get a 'Funny' rating.
The most efficient method of dealing with terrorism is to offer the leaders a seat in a legislative and the usually perks of the 'gravy train'.
Then you can depsise and complain bitterly how stupid and half-assed they are as you do any other politician...
It worked in Northern Ireland. We now have idiotic zealots sitting in debate and wasting public money on 2 copies of everything to the masses (i.e letters to schoolchildren in english and irish)(should have used e-mail, then the kids could class both as spam).
From my Autobiography - "Lifestyles of the Sad and Desperate"...
Oh please, the date when the US started caring about terrorism outside its borsers is 11/9/01. The UKs been dealing with terrorism for a lot longer than that.
Yes, but the house of lords is impotent.
No it's bloody well not. Why do you think The Glorious Leader has been trying so hard to trim its claws? If the Commons want to pass a bill, and the Lords are opposed to it, then it's dead in the water at that point. It can be re-drafted a couple of times to get the engine spinning again, but unless the Lords are then brought round to the Commons' way of thinking, it's still dead.
What worries me is that Tony is trying to limit the long-term as well as the short-term usefulness of the Lords. Bearing in mind that, if Britain goes into the Euro, he'll almost certainly get the European Presidency, that'll give him the ability to force legislation through the British parliament via Brussels without the niggle of the Lords getting in the way.
Scary.
Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
Slashdot is so frikking anglo-centric.
France and Canada are second-world nations ? The second world nations were the communist countries back in the days of the chilly-war...
As for everyone doing they're part for terrorism, the US' long history of support tyrannical dictatorships and also supporting the world's worst terrorist, Pol Pot, makes a me little hesitant to jump on any US foriegn policy bandwagon....
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -Tom Waits
....the plans to allow a vast range of bodies to access email and phone records have now been shelved.
Zombies reading email? Fat people AND skinny people looking at my phone records? Must be the zombies if they're being shelved.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
I hope you all visited the above site and used it to fax your MP. Don't forget to go back when the bill resurfaces.
--- Yx3 = Delilah ---
If you find the site slashdotted, it's because of the Korea/Italy game - it's the same servers they're using to give a live feed of the match report, and as it's just gone into extra time, it's likely to be congested for the next 45 minutes or so. Soccer fever is one of the very few things that can "slashdot" the bbc, I've only ever seen it once before, that was 9/11
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
This has to be flamebait. But such is the ignorant, smug arrogance of the post, I am forced to bite.
1. We didn't help you with your codebreaking - you helped us! The key breakthroughs were made at Bletchley Park - a fact everyone knows except uneducated yanks whose knowledge of the Enigma machine comes from insulting dross like the movie U-571.
2. The 'increasing responsibility of maintaining world peace' during the Cold War was not an American 'burden' as you put it, but a shared venture across the Western World - under American leadership. We were *all* under threat of nuclear annhilation you know.
3. To what extent has the UK *not* carried its weight when dealing with security issues, in conjunction with America? Name me one occasion *ever*, you ignorant fool?
4. You don't wipe out terrorism with military might alone. Anyone who's actually fought terrorists (like the IRA for example, until recently legally part-funded by American citizens) - why - like the British in Northern Ireland - knows you *contain* terror with the military but you *defeat* terror with politics.
We won't blody well take lessons from you in how to fight terrorists.
... are the worst of all. Comitted to increasing government interference and taxation (nanny state ahoy!). I'm voting UKIP as it's made up of some uber-capitalists and is the closest to a Libertarian party in the UK.
I doubt that any of the G8 countries (including Canada, France) are second world nations.
Kiddie pr0n is bad.
;)
There i spoke out against it so i'm not condoning that behaviour. You're right, we shouldn't shield the wrong people, we should shield everyone. So basically your idea is that we should grant everyone privacy except maybe terrorists and kiddie pr0nographers? That is the way it currently works. I'm constantly reassured that I have nothing to fear b/c i'm not doing anything wrong.
Who gets to choose the people that get spied on? I don't have a problem with the fact that law enforcement has the power to set up wiretaps and spy. The problem is with the oversight involved. Who watches the watchers? How do we curb abuses of wiretap powers?
This has to be flamebait. But such is the ignorant, smug arrogance of the post, I am forced to bite
Uhh, yeah, thats called a "Troll" kid. As in, You Have Been.
Uh... Where do you think the major NSA listening stations for the Eastern Hemisphere are?
Hint: there's one here, and another one here.
Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
A home office minister on BBC R4 yesterday blurted out that the government were collecting the data anyway, regardless....check the story on The Register ...
It is outrageou to consider France & Canada as 2nd world nations.
They are 3rd world nations.
While London in 1983 was in the midst of a time of relatively high terrorism, The experience of being in London for a US citizen was an interesting contrast. People were very mindful of left packages anywhere public. Paris was markedly more striking in the presence of guards armed with automatic weapons outside many embassies / banks. Only saw that once in London that trip.
In 1996 there was a very different feel. The presence of private security cameras was highly visible and I was warned a few times about elevated danger of street crime. London still felt far safer on ballance than any US city I've ever spent time in, but still much changed from '83, let alone '69.
In the US presently I think most of the population would welcome far stricter intrusions of privacy than what the government has actually opposed (which is still somewhat more than I'm happy about).
The UK has lived with visible levels of terrorism for decades, while for we in the US it's a pretty new adjustment. Don't know how that affects policy or people's actions on a daily basis, 'cause I don't live there.
Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
bsds are of course just BSD
Alas, you have not been paying attention.
This development is actually a setback: the Post Office, Fire Brigade, local councils and the cast of "The Archers" will not be able to participate fully in surveillance until after November. Maybe some of them will not even get to join in at all.
You neglecting some of our military contributions since WW2. British troops have traditionally been stoic and understanding about the need for US pilots to calibrate their weapons by making bombing runs on friendly troops, although admittedly Canada has taken on more of this duty recently.
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
"The UK has lived with visible levels of terrorism for decades, while for we in the US it's a pretty new adjustment. Don't know how that affects policy or people's actions on a daily basis, 'cause I don't live there."
This is indeed one of the frustrating UK-US differences. When a (typically but not universally) uninformed American comments on the level of UK surveillance, they never take the 20 years of terrorism on UK soil into account.
It didn't help that the IRA was getting 50% of its money from US citizens supporting Noraid either. The cry "Don't they know they're killing us" was all-too-obviously answered "No!". Or perhaps they didn't care.
I lost friends in the UK armed forces on UK territory in an attack on a UK military base in Northern England, July 1986. The IRA boasted that the attacks would continue while their US funds would support it, and there was no end for that in sight. I won't go into details (it's too painful) but emotions like mine are all-too-common in the UK, and all-too-new to the US. Perhaps US isolationism will be reduced as a result of 11/11. Personally I don't hold much hope.
As for everyone doing they're part for terrorism, the US' long history of support tyrannical dictatorships and also supporting the world's worst terrorist, Pol Pot [pbs.org], makes a me little hesitant to jump on any US foriegn policy bandwagon...
Care to back that up with a credible cite? And when you've done so, care to explain why it was the UN which forced the Cambodians to keep Pol Pot around when the US and others were calling for a war crimes tribunal>
As for `defeating terror with politics', I'll tell you what -- when you actually do something about the IRA instead of handing them the keys to the city and washing your hands of the matter, maybe we'll come back to you for advice. The current mess of a `peace process' is an example to no one.
And if you're so self-sufficient when it comes to defense, how 'bout we start seeing some of that lend-lease paid back, eh?
-- What do you need?
;)
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
Man, I want to see that Matrix adaptation...
A gnu-wielding RMS in dark glasses uses superhuman martial arts in his attempts to overturn the evils of proprietary software, emerging victorious in the end by installing Emacs on one of the Agents, and thereby crippling them with a massive outbreak of the "viral" GPL.
Meanwhile the beautiful female agent has fallen madly in love with hi... nah, let's not stretch reality too far
Stuart.
not funny but misinformed, The most efficent way of getting rid of terrorism is to give "terrorists" the means of changing what they want to change via non-violent means....
The amendments are only being shelved because of the House of Lords. This is not a victory for democracy (tyrany of the majority in this case). It's a victory for oligarchy.
And if you're so self-sufficient when it comes to defense, how 'bout we start seeing some of that lend-lease paid back, eh?
Sorry about the loan.... must have run it up single-handedly defending the free world while you were sitting on the fence.
WWI began in 1914, and WWII began in 1939.
You should really check up on history. It isn't as if you have much of it.
Ah not true.
A libertarian is one who advocates *liberty*.
In this case, the right of something not be killed, versus the right of something to kill. Just as being a libertarian does not automatically qualify you as being in favour of kiddy fiddling, being liberal does not mean you have go along with everything everyone else want's to do, regardless of consequence.
And, in this case, it's a case of the law forcing an opinon of the majority on a small minority who have no respect for the liberty of a 3rd party.
when you actually do something about the IRA
Well if you lot would stop bloody funding the bastards!
Your *STILL* doing it!
"Libertarian" and "libertarian" and not the same thing at all. DO YOU HAVE _ANY_ IDEA of the difference?
And no - for the record - I have never been in favour of enforcing vegetarianisim.
Quite frankly I DO belive that killing one animal is pretty much the same as killing another animal on a moral level. How does that make me a 'pro lifer' or a 'peace activist' that starts riots? I know I'm most definately NEITHER.
So, at any rate, now we your 'libertarian' principles go as far as 'it's okay to do things to animals, as long as they arn't human animals'. That's fine, we have established your liberty has limits. So if your idea of liberty can have limits, why not mine?
Oh I forgot I am on the same level as those who kills doctor and stars riots! Sounds like Bush saying "Your with us or your with the terrorists!"
I didn't swallow that one either.
Look here for a more informed view, 1700 soldiers by April, and more since, including HMS Ocean (helicopter carrier), HMS Illustrious (aircraft carrier), and HMS Fearless (assault ship) as well as an auxiliary fleet presence (engineers, supply, etc,). Get your facts right.
Perhaps you have ideas about what to do, given your knowledge of the religious and territorial claims which stretch back over MORE TIME THAN YOUR COUNTRY HAS EXISTED in it's current form.
Perhaps also, if you stopped funding them (50% of IRA funds are USA-sourced) it would help stop innocent children from being bombed and murdered on their way to school in Northern Ireland.
We are self-sufficent. We could park a nuclear sub off any major city in the world and reduce it to a smoking ruin in seconds. No "missile shield" could help. A pre-emptive military strike against us would (and could) not prevent this.
At the end of the day, Mao was right in one respect: power comes from the end of a gun, and the UK is one of the most militarily powerful nations in the world.
Aside: Britain is one of the best submariner nations in the world. I've worked on some of the technical systems in modern submarines, and it's quite funny how different classifications affect what is shown... When everyone watching is classified for "UK EYES ONLY", the displays get significantly more detailed and informative. With a lot more relevant info to work with, the same
algorithms in the software can produce a lot more useful output
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
The way british forces are being cut 200 soldiers is probably about 25% of the army this week. They're *vastly* under resourced, and are being sent off around the globe to far more places than just Afghanistan.
n/t
And if you're so self-sufficient when it comes to defense, how 'bout we start seeing some of that lend-lease paid back, eh?
:-)
Err...you got it back, in 1945. You got 99 year leases on our various overseas bases, or you got the ships back undamaged (well, a bit pock marked, maybe...), and you got about $11 billion - from us.
By the time the base leases come up for renewal (in about 40 years time), you should have got more value than the remaining $20 billion. We'll call it quits, though, since you did supply 50 obsolete submarines to soak up German torpedoes
--Ng
> Why is it that there are 200 British soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan
Sigh. Take your head out your ass for one moment and get the facts. There are 6,000 UK troops directly involved in Afghanistan, 1,700 of which are on the ground. (Prime Ministerial statement to the House, March 20).
> -- a number smaller than the UK government's own estimates of how many citizens of the realm are fighting for al Qaeda?
And the nationality of the 'dirty bomber' was what exactly?
> when you actually do something about the IRA instead of handing them the keys to the city and washing your hands of the matter, maybe we'll come back to you for advice.
If by doing something you mean actually ending one of the most intractable terrorist wars in the modern era, boosting investment in Northern Ireland, creating more peace, prosperity and happiness than there has been in that hellhole for a generation - then maybe you do need our advice. The fact is - the war's over.
Of course, if we were Israel, the IRA was the PLO and we were following the favoured American approach - which is to wash your hands of any trouble in the world not directly underpinning the profits of Exxon - then you might see different results. Oh, of course, you do.
> The current mess of a `peace process' is an example to no one.
You are so right, a peace process which delivers peace is clearly a mistake. How much more productive the US-Israel-Palestinian peace process has been, and how foolish we have been not to follow that model.
> And if you're so self-sufficient when it comes to defense, how 'bout we start seeing some of that lend-lease paid back, eh?
Hey, you wrote it off, don't come whingeing to us about it now.
No, it's not a clever remark designed to get a rise, it's bloody disrespectful and offensive to those who have fought in the past, and are fighting today for their country.
Hey, no argument there -- I'd love to see NORAID on the same list as the Holy Land Foundation and other Hamas front groups. But that's not likely to happen as long as Blair claims that the IRA/Sinn Fein is now a `partner in the peace process', now is it?
-handedly defending the free world while you were sitting on the fence.
Single handedly? Ask any citizen of a former colony nation (ie Canada, Australia, New Zealand) and you'll find out that the first war was their "coming of age", where they proved to the world that they were capable of independance.
WWI began in 1914, and WWII began in 1939.
Yup, they sure did. But you were far from alone. The entire commonwealth joined with you.
You should really check up on history. It isn't as if you have much of it.
As a non-American, I can tell you to check up on history. You may have a lot of it, but yours isn't the only country in the world which has some.
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
#--I've posted this elsewhere but reprinted here ed because I think's it's important that we all are clear on the difference between what are two often misunderstood terms.--#
As I said, being a libertarian merely means advocating liberty. That is the (or strictly speaking 'a') definition of the word. It does not mean advocating anarchy which is *very* different and much more like what you are describing.
You can draw the line at liberty at the theft of ideas (copyright), or at theft of actual property, or at rape, or at murder, spousal abuse, or at cruelty to animals.
- Traditional western culture does not permit any of these. That is very typically libertarian.
Libertarian's are democrats, laissez-faire capitalists, and support the rule of law and government (with as little intervention as practically possible).
- Some cultures do permit quite a few of these (theft of 'copyright', rape, spousal abuse and cruelty to animals are all quite permissible in some countries).
This is much more anarchic. Countries with this more anarchic approach (like middle eastern countries, like Iran) tend to have less free market capitalism, less complicated legal systems and less protection for individual freedom's.
Needless to say, libertarian and anarchists are not exactly compatible as the latter have no interest in *protecting* - or asserting - freedoms (which libertarians do!)!
"Yup, they sure did. But you were far from alone. The entire commonwealth joined with you."
:-)
:-) about what's right and what's wrong.
A good point. I have a colleague who continually refers to what "he" did, and not what "we" did. I find it irritating.
This is why saying that Britons in general consider the Commonwealth (1.7 billion people, almost 1/3 the world's population!) to be part of "we" is not adequate unless it's said. Nonetheless, we do, well at least *I* do, 1 down, 57million to go
Should a major conflict arise again, I'd expect most of the Commonwealth to be with us rather than against us, not because you should or must, but because we mostly share the same ideals and values (monarchy aside
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
Absolutly. However that doesn't mean that its primary purpose is not to Troll. tps12 has just done it by insulting the memory of millions of dead, many of whom were young (In their 20's) when they died.
And for many of the same fundamental reasons.
Very funny and well put. We are all a little Eccentric, it's in the british mandate.
There's a fine line between people who'll do their best for 5 years and someone who's top of there league doing the job for life. I just hope the control freak goverment will allow the Lords to find the correct balance.
I'm glan the RIP act has been shelved, we embrace this so called "Freedom", now the goverment want to put the ideas of big brother to shame, shame on the goverment, but atleast public opinion has told them enough is enough. Our system was based on innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, lets hope it will stay this way.
P.S on another note, Dam those Koreans were good today.
num->num->pineapple
Whereas we looney Yanks publish plans for our nuclear submarines in leaflets in cereal boxes. When will we learn?
Terrible when it happens to yours, but fine while it was the Harps getting crushed. Admit it, you guys have fucked up every country you ever laid hands on and demonstrated, as you quote Mao --
At the end of the day, Mao was right in one respect: power comes from the end of a gun,
-- that the only way out from under your boot heel is by use of violence. How dare you prattle on about how abused you are by the Irish, you simpering child.
Let's admit it -- in much of the world, today's statesmen are yesterday's terrorists.
I realised the other day that I was agreeing with some of the things the Conservative politicians were saying.
That's the thing about the LibDems. You're actually allowed to agree with the Tories if and when they happen to be talking sense; and you're actually allowed to agree with Labour if and when they happen to be talking sense; and naturally, of course, you're allowed to disagree with other liberals when they're talking a load of bollocks, as we do from time to time.
Control Freaks R'nt Us!, basically.
In much of the world, today's statesmen are today's terrorists. That this happens does not make it desirable, much less part of any sane `peace process'.
that the only way out from under your boot heel is by use of violence.
Gandhi was successful in a non-violent fashion.
Well well, the Anonymous Coward strikes again. With lightning wit and dazzling erudition, (s)he strikes the devastating blow. Not.
.. that the only way out from under your boot heel is by use of violence"
"How dare you prattle on about how abused you are by the Irish, you simpering child."
You think I'm being coy ? Odd thing to say.
Now let me see if I've got this right... You're claiming that something that happened four hundred years ago (I assume you're talking about the harpers here) has such bearing on the modern British view of the world that children should be murdered to make sure people get your message.
Sorry, no actually I'm not sorry. I don't agree.
I don't hold grudges for that long - every nation would be at war with every other if that were the case, and man would degenerate to the animal from which he came.
"you guys have fucked up every country you ever laid hands on and demonstrated
I don't recall saying that. Mao said power comes from the end of a gun, but power and actions are two different things. British actions towards Ireland in recent times (beginning with Major) do not appear to me to be British Imperialism imposed from above. The peace process is (slowly) making ground, sometimes in spite of the politicians on both sides, but gaining ground nonetheless.
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
I suppose this is before the dawn of time for some people.