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Inside the Cult of TiVo
StudMuffin writes: "A group of TiVo enthusiasts from over at the TiVo Community Forum recently got together. About 100 people showed up to roast weenies and swap TiVo hacks and screen names. This is just plain cool, if you ask me. TiVo rocks. Of interest, however, was the representation of the TiVo company and the fact that they didn't fight to stop hacking their product. Does this relationship between hi-tech companies and hackers act as a model of how this relationship can work? TiVo even seems tolerant of really hardcore hacks as discussed on /. in the past."
. . . until it costs them some money or they get DMCA'd. They have been playing it cool so far, but that'll turn on a dime once the money starts leaving.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Maybe Tivo realizes that endless fighting against geeks isn't in their best interest and who knows, someone may come up with features they hadn't thought of. Cheap R&D indeed.
I'm not drunk, I just have a speech impediment. And a stomach virus. And an inner ear infection.
It's a fine balance.
I know that TiVO was more or less invented by hackers that can sympathize with people wanting to fiddle with hardware to do more than what could be convenient marketed for $x99.99 at Best Buy.
I've heard that some of them hang on different boards, dispelling rumours, clarifying what are stupid ways to backup your TiVo, etc.
Meanwhile, I know that some in the hacker community (Andrew Tridgell?) deliberately withdrew an early version of code he had that could crack the video streaming format filesystem on the TiVo's. I think that such decoding of video, especially combined with Ethernet access to the device, would have caused the Powers That Be to get riled up in a hurry (if TiVo hackers started to trade TV and movies the same way that Napster users were trading songs).
I've got two TiVo's and I upgraded them to use larger 100 GB IDE drives. It's great.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
On the site:
"The installation is not that hard, and it has been wife tested..."
Not only does Tivo have a model relationship with hackers, but this is despite the fact that hackers do sometimes cost them money. How? I'll explain:
It's not that the people who hack (finally, proper usage of the word) their Tivo to get more space are competing with any upgrade plan of Tivo's, because they don't have one. But what happens frequently is this - when you're upgrading the disks, if you're smart, you make a backup. The upgrade then goes successfully, and you've swapped out 30 hours of space on a single drive, to say, 120 hours of space on two drives. Then a software upgrade comes along, of which Tivo has had several. Then one of your disks may fail, programs start skipping, or the Tivo starts freezing. So you go back to backup.
You have to download the software again.
I'm sure I'll get flamed to hell and back, but Tivo has a deal with UUnet (though they may have gone out of business, or bought?) to provide local POP's for Tivo's to dial into. Tivo then pays for the time you use. Program data is tiny. Software updates, (over mostly 33.6) is a long time, and costs them money. But to my experience, and yeah, this happened to me, they've been nothing but agreeable, and I had to download 2.5 actually 3 times - once for the actual upgrade, once for the situation above, and uh... the third time because I screwed up, I admit it. I even called tech support, because my machine didn't want to upgrade the third time, and they actually re-flagged me for download, and told me to get it right this time. =)
TiVo allows one to steal content by skipping ads
So you're implying I steal television airtime if I go take a bathroom constitutional or head off to the fridge for a snack? I hardly think it's stealing, just a convenience that TiVo users enjoy by skipping ads.
And what about channel surfing?
Also consider that there are more ads on TV now than ever before, and a lot of ads on cable channels that I've already paid for every month!
I pay for my TV in other ways. I don't think is "stealing".
I am the evil aardvark!
According to Tiger, who wrote the MFS Tools application that is used to add/expand drives, most of his handouts for the new version went to TiVo employees and engineers.
Speaking of MFS Tools 2.0, you can do all sorts of nifty adds and expansions with it - including adding and expanding the A Drive on Series2 units.
More on MFS Tools 2.0 here.
TiVo was pretty vocal about not supporting the hack that allowed you to extract video from the TiVo. They asked Dave Bott, the guy that runs tivocommunity.com, not to allow talk about it. The new Series 2 TiVos have been changed so that you can't make hacks (like TiVoweb, telnet access and FTP) that are persistant across reboots.
They are miles above most companies, but they still are not 100% hacker friendly.
tk
The amount of people out there who have the technical know how to hack these things to a point of costing Tivo money is very very small in proportion to the amount of people who own the product. Given this why would they focus their energies on suppressing these hacks when they could focus on improving and selling more of their products.
If Dish Network spent money like this instead of on stings, lobbying and developing ecms don't you think they would have a better service to show for it. By that I mean from a consumer point of view and not an investors.
Hackers are not only unpaid support guys for friends and relations, they are also salesmen.
Let the hackers do what they want (and they can't really be stopped, can they), and more will buy the tivo and preach tivo-ism to the untechnical masses who will never hack to the full degree, most will give up after a month and just use it normally.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
As any regularly hacking TiVo owner will tell you, the company is not merely tolerant of people who hack their product, but supportive. The latest version of the TiVo software includes built-in support for the 3rd party network adapters (TiVoNET and TurboNet). It's this kind of technical interaction that gives me hope not just for hacking, but for development of open source solutions.
As the 'net adapter upgrade means they have to pay minimal costs for the upgrade.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
TiVo is indeed very tolerant of 'hacking' the units. There are even TiVo employees who regularly participate in the discussions on the www.tivocommunity.com bulletin board.
TiVo knows that they have a killer app, but they also know that they are struggling. They need happy customers, but more than that, they need advocates for their products and their technology. That's us!
Personally, I love my TiVo the way that I used to love my Macs -- I have never seen an outpouring of love for an electronic device since I used to hang around with other rabid Apple Mac users. TiVo is a wonderful thing and I don't EVER want to go back to living without it.
No problems. You may want to be there to get everything set up and installed (it'll take a few hours to do), but once that's done, it's as easy to use as a VCR. Heck, easier.
I know we would all like to think of Tivo as a wonderful utopian mother company that babies all of its little hacker children, but please keep in mind that reaching out to the hacker community is a shrewd business decision, not a form of altruism.
Consider for a moment the fact that hackers are almost always early adopters, who spread the gospel of technology to their less tech-literate friends. If you read Slashdot and/or hack Tivos, chances are you've got a couple of friends who think of you as their tech guru, and who come to you when they're deciding to purchase a computer, a new DVD player, or...oh, I don't know...a PVR unit.
The simple fact is that reaching out to hackers is simply Tivo's way of ensuring positive word-of-mouth from the people who are in the best position to dispense it. This is not a bad thing, but it's not particularly a great thing either - it's just smart business.
Tivo doesn't make money off the hardware. (In fact, the hardware is made by Phillips and Sony, and I think I saw once that TiVo actually PAYS Phillips and Sony a small subsidy per box.)
TiVo's revenue stream is from their *service* - I have a friend that works for them, and he basically says that their attitude is that it's anything goes for hackers, in fact they secretly cheer them on.
BUT, that's as long as the hackers don't go near their revenue stream. Try to screw with their channel guide service/etc., and they will most definately NOT be supporting it. (I think someone basically said that TiVo went to some lengths to shut down people who did such things.)
Hackers upgrading mean:
a) TiVo doesn't have to pay the small subsidy on new boxes.
b) If the hacker installs a network card, it means they stop using the TiVo dialup system for updates.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Of course Tivo is supportive of the hacking community. They make more money as the grassroot campaign leads people to buy more and more of their products. The people that don't like the addons are the copyright owners that don't want to allow easy transfer of their property. But for Tivo, it leads to greater interest in their product.
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
if any hacker has come up with a way of blocking forced recording let me know.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Now that the technology has been debugged and the business case proved, why the hell can't we buy these things here?
Yes, I know Andrew Tridgell hacked one to make it work, but surely we don't have to go to that kind of effort to make it work . . .
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Being open to "reasonable" hacking is a very good thing. People will buy systems they can customize. The PC itself owes its existence to IBM having built an extensible system.
The Mac, albeit superior (or so Mac users tell me), was less open. It's market share is (in part) a result of that.
It's not just rabid slashdotters with bizarre cases, it's just being able to add hardware to do things you need.
Doing PVR on the client side is a fundamentally flawed model. The server side model makes a lot more sense.
1) The economics of storing one copy of a programme on millions of client side devices compare very unfavourable to storing the content on even massively redundant servers.
2) Hard disks have a high MTBF when compared to existing media, VHS, DVD. Consumers will not accept the total loss of content with a HD failure. The economics of on-site mainternance require the simplest client possible.
3) A server side solution can 'record' essentially an all channels, the resource requirements are order N. A client side solution requires exponential amounts of hardware to allow all clients to record all channels, order N^N hardware.
4) The efficience of a server side solution means that more content can be recorded, even unselected historical choices.
I am guessing this is a joke (why buy the cow when the milk is free) but just in case I'll respond.
Getting these people on the payroll will get talented people who are already "up to speed" working full time on the system instead of part time. Also, you'll be able to direct what they work on. Maybe Tivo would benefit from their next hack instead simply not being harmed by it.
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
Guiding this sorta back onto topic...
:)
. ph p?s=&threadid=62906
TiVo-ites from the forums in the Chicago area (and beyond) are also planning to have TiVo BBQ this August.
Don't know yet how many TiVo employees are going to show up but if you read the forums and are in mid-america you should show up.
Information on the get together is at:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread
http://www.WinWithRealEstate.com/
Have no fear, a VHS Cult Gathering for us 'old school' hackers is bound to be scheduled.
Efren Belizario
headspeak.com
reasonable lifetime fee
I disagree. The "lifetime fee" is the lifetime of the unit. I purchased one of the first units with the "lifetime subscription". I recently went to order a new box because I got sick of reinstalling TiVOnet after every upgrade (fixed in 3.0 finally). I was told I would have to pay another "lifetime" fee, so I would have enough TiVO for two lifetimes appearantly.
I'm not saying this is unfair, but I think the company should better clarify "lifetime" to people buying the machines.
I once felt the same way, but after some thought I think the client side PVR model is actually a good one.
1) Broadcast Transmission
Client PVRs rely on broadcast transmission to "download" shows. This means that hundreds of users can be recieving the same show on a local loop and it will cost no additional bandwidth. For server side PVRs to work, they would have to have enough bandwidth at each server to handle all attached users. This would be costly.
2) Infrastructure
To setup server side PVRs you would need to keep adding servers as your subscriber base increases. Not to mention that not every cable user has internet access on their line. This may cost even cost more than just buying a client side Tivo for each user. Tivo is losing money as is. There is no way they could have got the capital to support their user base if they had to maintain all the servers that would be required for server side PVRs.
3) Reliability
While you are right that hard drive failures would piss off consumers, hard drive failures are relatively rare. I suggest that server side PVRs would have even MORE problems than client side. Look at your average web site, which seems to crash everytime its linked to some certain web logs. And if server PVR crashes, then possibly hundreds of users would be pissed off at once, instead of just one.
Server side PVRs have many advantages in the long run, but the short run costs keep them prohibitive for the moment. A good solution may be to combine the advantages of client and server side PVRs. For instance keep the same Tivo functionality, but add the ability to (slowly) download a requested show from a server somewhere. You request it on Monday and get it Tuesday night or something. The new ReplayTV P2P show sharing might be a good model for this.
sigless
"Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."
http://www.tivo.com/linux
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
For them to really be tolerant, they'd have to have that attitude when it might lose them a few subscribers. They've cracked down on people who have looked at uploading alternate listings.
It's just a little bit of enlightened self interest - hacked have to buy a unit to fiddle with. But get anywhere near being self sufficient, or competing with them and the shit hits the fan.
I want Tivo, simply. But we don't have (and probably never will have) program listings for local tv stations. Is unconnected Tivo useful? could it replce my VHS VCR? (I loathe VHS!).
Just wondering...
so are there any plans for a replay tv weenie roast? ;)
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
The server side model is dependant on massive bandwidth, which doesn't exist.
'Massive' no, DTV can be delivered in about 4.5Mbps using current MPEG technology, which is hardly massive, and can be delivered over xDSL to about 3.5KM.
'which doesn't exist' perhaps not widely, but we are starting to do this http://www.kitv.co.uk
You'd lose the ability for all your users to access the PVR features simultaneously.
This is only true assuming a cable infrastructure because of it limiting ring topology. xDSL uses a star network topology, and this restriction does not apply.
And what about pausing/rewinding live TV?
What about it ? Whilst we currently do not provide it *yet* because of development resources it is *absolutely* possible.
There is no way that any existing, or forthcoming, CATV infrastructure can scale to support this to enough users to make it profitable.
Wrong. We are starting to do this now, it is more scalable and cheaper (unit price) than the alternatives (Client side PVR) for the reasons stated in my original post.
There are many other flaws in your argument, but it doesn't even get off the ground to begin with, so I won't go into more depth...
Perhaps you should post them, and I'll shoot those down as well:)
The event wrapped up with an appearance by the plush TiVo mascot -- which was greeted with hugs from TiVo's youngest fans
... and the mob of screwdriver-wielding geeks that nearly killed him trying to install a bigger HD.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
Back in the 60's and 70's, people could buy kits to make a computer. Today, hobbyists can still do similar things-- but the spirit is not the same. I build R/C cars and 99% of the fun is just tweaking it out. I've also added a hard drive to my TiVo. I enjoy tinkering with things like this, and a lot of other people do, too.
TiVo could go a step further, by giving users a small how-to guide for basic TiVo hacking. Things like adding Hard Drive's, enabling hidden features, etc. It would be a new (or revistalized?) idea: Customizable Consumer Electronics. It's like you're building a component Stereo system, except the components are all in one box.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
Those of us who've added Ethernet to our TiVos could even be said to have done them a little favor. A TiVo that pulls its data through its owner's cable-modem or DSL connection is a TiVo that isn't using a UUnet dialup. That has to have TiVo at least a little money, especially when upgrades get pushed out.
Now I just need to reinstall TivoWeb so that I can see what's saved on it again. 3.0's Ethernet support is slicker than all-get-out...as long as you have a DHCP server, it just works. If the upgrade hadn't killed telnet access to my TiVo, I wouldn't have had to open the box at all after the upgrade (other than to make a backup of the new software).
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Whoa there! I feel like /. has been overrun by Tivo employees or something with all the gushing going on in this thread. ("Cult" of Tivo indeed!) Let's try to remember:
1) Tivo forcing users to record programs
2) The Privacy Foundation's report on Tivo points out that
a) Your Tivo serial number is sent multiple times during each phone call and there is no way to guarantee data is truly treated anonymously except to trust Tivo.
b) Tivo's definition of "personal" information is significantly more narrow than the average privacy policy reader would assume, and so guarantees about your "personal" information are hollow.
c) Tivo suggests that the viewing information is never transmitted. In fact, all of the constituent pieces of the personal viewing information are transmitted to TiVo's computers.
d) TiVo should disclose that their customer-identified diagnostic log can indicate when the TiVo remote control was in use.
3) Anyone heard of Replay TV here? They are actively fighting Hollywood to defend your rights. When a judge tried to force them to spy on users, they fought it. When Hollywood said users shouldn't be allowed to send programs to other devices, they fought it. When the networks said your skipping commercials was "theft", they fought it. I think a company that does all this for the privacy and rights of its users deserves our support (or at least a MENTION on this page).
Brian
Support EFF! http://www.eff.org
They're defending YOUR rights online!
Like Digital Freedoms? Then donate to EFF before they're gone.
How do you explain this Linux counter entry, then?
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Lego has been similarly cool about people hacking Lego Mindstorms. They've even released some technical information. People have written all kinds of alternative compilers and operating systems to load into their robots.
... "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the w
That being said I hooked up the TiVo for her and gave her a quick tour of what the TiVo button does, how to play recorded shows and how to add Season Passes and left her to ask questions as she ran into problems. Ya know what? She DIDN'T! All I hear now is how happy she is that she can watch her Lifetime shows, network "chick" shows, and whatever else she wants and I don't have to answer questions like "will Providence fit on this VHS tape" ever again.
God Bless TiVo!!!
Just my $.02
MMMmmmmmm....erotic cakes!!! Homer J. Simpson - Treehouse of Horror VI
So my Tivo broke. The tech knew exactly what the problem was after I called in and waited on hold for 40 minutes, but it wasn't anywhere on their site to help me before I sat on hold for 40 minutes.
Anyway, so it's $130 to basically get a new Tivo if I ship them mine, not a horrible price compared to new Tivo prices. But he didn't really say what was wrong; I'm curious if I can just fix it myself by replacing some hardware. Might call back.
The thing that pissed me off the most is that he asked if I wanted to fork over the cash, I said I needed to think about it. Did he have a number I could call back? Some priority thing so I don't have to sit on hold 40 minutes? Nope. Fuck you, sit on hold.
Not as egregious as, say, getting the cops on you for having cable modem without cable service, but I think waiting on hold for 40 minutes is fucking ridiculous. And having to do it twice for one issue-- well, I'm looking at competitors.
They'll have to do better than Series 2 to get me to buy another unit. They're not offering any significant new capabilities to warrant an upgrade. What would make me run out and buy other unit(s) would be the ability to extract video to SVCD or DVD, and the abilitiy to watch shows on other TiVos on my home network. The new Replay looks mighty good, except for the price.
First, I love my Tivo. It's great for recording the boob tube.
However...
A friend of mine, after hearing a bunch of us talk about nice the Tivo was, bought one of the new "Series 2" machines. He wasn't sure he was going to keep it, so he didn't subscribe. After the "trial period" ran out, he can no longer record manually (time and channel, without the guide).
It appears from various comments around the 'net that the "Series 2" machines cannot be used as manual recorders. Now, using a Tivo as a manual PVR kinda defeats the purpose of the thing (IMHO), but the older units can be used manually (i.e., without a subscription) and people may think this is still possible with the newer units.
Yes, I understand that their business model is to get the money from the subscriptions. I'm just pointing out something I had not heard about (that manual recording without a subscription is no longer possible). I was a bit surprised to learn this, in fact.
Milalwi
That is the distance from the POP usually an exchange, the actual coverage is a trade secret but it is a *lot more* than a niche market. We can reach the rest though active street cabinet.
The storage requirements are *less* for a server side solution only one copy and reference count is needed even if million's of consumers record a program. On a client side PVR a million copies are stored it is massively less efficient.
Yes, the KIT service is much more than just PVR, DTV+EPG is the core, VOD, Internet Access and a range of localised Web-Services, Pizza Deliver, Local Government, Health Services are all included.
DTV tivo style is more like 1.5 Mbps.
That is very low bit rate for real-time encoded video stream, what is the encoding standard (MPEG2) ? What is the quality like?
We use industrial strength encoders from Tandberg, pretty much the best money can buy and we achieve an acceptable quality of video at 3Mbps real-time and 1.5Mbps off-line encoding
TIVO must be pretty poor picture quality and generate a lot of artefacts at 1.5Mbps realtime.