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Alternative Wireless Broadband for your Neighborhood
An anonymous reader writes "TelephonyOnline reports Motorola has announced a new line of 5GHz *unlicensed* Wireless Broadband point to multi-point solution with a 2 mile range called Canopy.
Pricing may allow neighborhoods to gang up and be their own ISP."
"Alternative Wireless Broadband for your Neighborho"
looks like another slashcode update is needed. But don't include XSS feature this time, folks.
Plain old sigh.
The last mile has been one of the biggest barriers to more widespread broadband adoption so something like this would be great. The only question is where does the bandwidth to the rest of the Net come form?
nice headline!
And, indeed use some help with the last mile towards our neighbor-ho!
(and the requisite)
Imagine a beowolf cluster of those!
Depending on the price, a 2-mile radius may or may not exactly be the greatest thing in the world.
My neighborho has had such an awful time communicating recently, she's always being late to appointments and such. The John Does are getting angrier and angrier.
Taken to the extreme, if each 'neighbourhood' is running high speed ip over wireless, and is peering with its neighbours, then the world becomes a true web. Why connect via maBell and pay $$$ lots, when these local wireless networks grow and peer to a level where xx% of your ip traffic can be routed without ever going via the major backbone providers?
Live today. Tomorrow will cost a lot more!
None of the links in the base topic is actually to the article.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"Pricing may allow neighborhoods to gang up and be their own ISP." That is not very likely for those of us who live among people who can't seem to keep shirts on or stop drinking beer.
I don't see what the advantage of his is for people who live in areas that have access to cable or dsl. Its wireless but not for the end user. Its wireless all the way to your house and thats it, you can't pcmcia cards for it or anything. You still have to get your own little wireless network in your home.
I think this would only really be good for last mile areas and maybe in high rise buildings that can't afford the wiring.
Neighbors getting together for a neigborhood ISP! I'm still laughing. Jeez, here in the States, most neighbors don't even know each other's name, and, if they do, they probably can't stand each. Just take a look at the Relationship to Victim column in this Supplementary Homicide Report from Texas. I know this is a cynical attitude to take, and, luckily, this is not my situation. There's nothing better than standing on my neighbor's front lawn drinking can after can of cheap beer on a hot summer evening. But everyone on my block are AOLers. 8-(
Some people have a way with words, others not have way.
The article doesn't say.
Motorola's docs don't seem to mention the wireless protocol either. Plugs in to a LAN though on the wired side.
Looks handy for ISPs though.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
This band is unlicensed. It basically means that no serious business is using it, in any domain.
Overlapping zones will certainly be another issue, though.
So let me get this straight. 6 APs supporting 1200 total users (assume residences) for $30k. That's only $25. Oh then there's the Customer Terminal Equipment at $515 a pop and a license at $28.95 ea and bandwith to feed your back haul...
Your talkin AT LEAST $650,000 to set this up for a neighborho(ood). That works out to around $540 per household assuming evreyone in the coverage area gets on board. I guess that's not bad if you amortize it over the year (or two). But what kind of freaky geek commune are you going to find that needs 1200 BB connections in a two mile radius?
We really need your help
http://www.gofundme.com/help-sherry
I'm not 100% on this (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) but there is no way something like this could come out in the UK? I don't believe there is an 'unlicenced' range of frequencies overhear...
"Success is based on knowing how far to go in going too far"
serious, how about running your own
routing/encryption/quota stuff?
This is great news for hackers! With all those security patches, it is getting harder and harder to find those bugs and exploits. (micro$oft products excluded). Some described the 'drive by hack' as driving with your car through a city, scanning the wireless networks (extending outside the house). Now the network is comming to you. Just park your car in some business area and you can scan/hack all of the networks within a 2 mile radius.
FLT, not just any theorem.
FLT, not just any theorem.
Yes maybe unlicensed over in the states, but does it apply to the UK?
"What do you mean you have no ice? Do you expect me to drink this coffee hot?" - Random Customer, Clerks
Hell, my 2.4ghz cordless phone still gets static when I'm in the next room. I'm still somewhat skeptical of wireless internet, it seems your speed would be degraded significantly by small obstacles. I mean, sure, if you're right next to the AP. But what if you're at the outside limit of the range? What if your pc is in a concrete basement? What if there are tons of trees around? etc... ;)
Someone dispell all of my skepticism please
I've heard horror stories about 2.4 ghz wireless with devices like a microwave or 2.4 ghz phone being used at the same time as your internet connection. Granted we wouldn't have that problem off the bat with 5ghz, since there aren't any devices that are using this band, but what happens when everyone and their mother uses the 5ghz band and clogs it like 2.4 can be clogged so eaisly now?
- tristan
5200 SM - Canopy Subscriber Module
Measures 11.75" X 3.4" X 3.4"
Single cable - standard RJ45, 8-pin Ethernet
Simple indoor AC adapter
UL-approved
This is the spec on the box that the user has to have in his home. Small isn't it? Couldn't it be a lot smaller in a short amount of time?
alex
--- Wherever you go, everyone is always connected...
Umm, why is this particularly news worthy, it uses same band as 802.11, you can get APs and Customer Premise Equipment for 802.11a/b for just as cheap, if not cheaper, and higher bandwith rates with 802.11a. Hell, the Motorola site is slim on details, they might even be using 802.11a, who knows. Not particularly a big new development of any sorts. People have been doing it for 5+ years with cheap 802.11 equipment and home made antennas.
Jeff Knox
5GZ Bandwith is preaty high. Your going to really have to start worrying about rain attenuation, especially in areas like seattle. You will prolly have to have a preaty high gain antenna.
I mod down any one who says "I'm sure I will get modded down for this"
This one IS cost effective.
And much more funny to set up.
- Please, ignore everything written above.
Don't get me wrong, 10Mb is the regular wired ethernet speed. But I was under the impression that as we raise the frequency of wireless transmissions, we are able to increase the data rate as well. That's why I don't understand the 10Mb speed. We've heard of much higher speeds at 5 GHz.
I tell you on thing, I live in the stix where the only Broadband available is Satellite. Good for Downloading big files. Right now I have to pay 20 bucks for and ISP and 40 a month for the Sat System. Given I could go with an SR system http://direcpc.com , but then my ping would get even higher, since I couldn't switch to Landline mode. If anything over 56k (except pricey ISDN) that was all digital became available, I personally would pay to have the setup, 1 better, I would volunteer my house for a relay, so the other peeps could get some BB.
"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."
Your mentioning cordless phones brings to mind a question: Would a high number of corrugated iron roofs in the area disrupt this kind of signal? I ask because manufacturers of cordless phones usually mention "tin" roofs as a caveat in their docs here in Australia where that type of construction is very common.
The largest advantage I see for something like this i a commercial setup is the install. With Verizon, Qwerst, and the other slow pokes, install time for business DSL make take up to a month.
With this, it's "we'll have a guy drop it off, we can FedEx it to ya, or you can stop on by and pick the puppy up." Plug it in at your place and you are on!
For some of the lines we have to provision at work, something like this could be a dream come true. Covad 2.0 may be about to be born...no ma' bell required. Forget the geek LAN option, this has loads of commercial possibilities too.
-Pete
Soccer Goal Plans
Just remember kiddies, nifty toys like this are likely against your EULA, unless you're paying for the high-dollar package from your phone/cable company. You wouldn't want Time Warner sending you nastygrams too!
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
As a couple people have pointed out, just getting neighbors to talk to one another is a small feat. But, let's just say you get that far -- then what? You've got to pony up a lot of dough for equipment, then someone's got to do system administration.
You're going to have neighbors bitching at each other over who's sucking up all the bandwidth streaming videos, and so on. Now, this happens to some extent already with cable modems, but when people get bent out of shape with the cable company, they bitch at the cable company, who's better equipped to deal with the bitching than the neighborhood propeller-head.
Sounds like way more trouble than the typical neighborhood community wants to step up to.
____DevManager_____
I can get 2 Mbit up/down, synchronous, for something like $40-$50 a month, so it looks interesting. However, I share that bandwidth with all the people in my quadrant, so, like cable modems, if I'm an early adopter, I get great bandwidth, but if it gets popular, there will be times when it gets clogged up.
Is it worth the $30 extra a month that I'm paying now? Well, I've had few problems, bandwidth is great, and I don't need to worry anout rain fade (ask me about my terrestrial HDTV and DirectTV signals).
Systems like this probably need bandwidth caps on users, and the ability to support multiple channels in a single quadrant. Remember the days of asking what the user/modem ratio for a dial-up ISP was before chosing one? Same kind of thing.
You could've hired me.
This is line of sight technology, kids. Interference and suceptibility to hacking is far less with LOS, however you lose the cool factor of not having to see the tower.
This stuff is obviously geared up to people wanting to start an ISP on quite possibly the last frontier of Internet access that is yet to be dominated. I have no idea why the submitter geared this up towards homebrew geek communities. (Editors plz!)
The hardware sounds great until you realize that unless your customers want to pay at least a $500 start-up fee for their CPE they'll be using, you're going to get killed in hardware costs. Mostly user-end. You expect the APs to cost alot!
As for the people whining about how this offers no advantage over 802.11a/b, I disagree. Namely, it doesn't use weak WEP encryption, but instead some unnamed encryption (hey, anything is better than WEP!). The range is much more significant.. 2 miles radio out-of-the-box, that's bad ass.
So the moral of the story, stick to your 802.11 for your home networks kids and stop pretending that every submission about Internet access is geared to you.
I still do think the Nokia wireless stuff was far more interesting though. Being NLOS and meshed are two big advantages (with equal disadvantages but still) however, the $700 per CPE is another killer. Yay for 802.16
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
How much does it cost to lay a cable to 1200 people? It's also 10Mbit both ways.
Against 802.11b it isn't quite so hot, but it's a *turnkey solution* to the last mile problem where you'll probably have to roll a whole load of your own software and hardware out of 802.11b kit. Plus it'll get cheaper with negotiation and time.
Basically they've taken a leaf from the 802.11b book and put it in the telco space. For the telcos, it's a cheap turnkey solution to the last mile problem.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Look. Can you see AT or whoever is your telephone company donwloading the plans, going out and getting the bits and telling it's staff to build these?
No. They want a completed product supported by a reputable company that they can rely on to fix problems when they happen.
So, *you* have to set up a company to build, market and sell them if you want to see them around in the market place.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
The canadians already do this, and cheaper and use the much less used 902Mhz ISM band.
See:
www.waverider.com
And the install (that I took part in...)
www.bwig.net
Very neat stuff, kind of expensive to do a whole town but way cheaper than laying cable.
Two problems:
(1) Everyone shares the same encryption key, just like 802.11b. This means that your data isn't secure from other customers of the service. You could put a bridge-level encryptor on both ends, but that would cost even more.
(2) Backbone connections to the internet are not inexpensive. If you do the math, you'll find it very difficult to make money selling T1-class service for less than $300/month without oversubscribing. And that's not even including the wireless hardware costs.
DOH! The day I switch to 802.11a for higher speeds and less interference with my neighbors' 2.4GHz cordless phones, along comes something sure to saturate the local area with 5GHz interference!
Will they run T lines to houses? or neighborhood club houses? if i can get that done, i may hit up the neighbors with this idea.
I hear they wont run them like that but not really sure.
We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully "designed" to have come into existence by chance.
Actually, if you watch their online demo, it says that overlaps are fine.. they don't cause interferience and the authentication server makes sure that only your modules can get on your canopy network. Not quite sure how they do that though.
A story about how they use their independence to test-drive thouse canopy units. :)
I really like this guy, makes me want to do similar stuff at motherland
there already is a bunch of nodes here in london, run by activists and usually gives the users free access by sharing a dsl connection with the one who sets it up. means limited bandwith the more people are on, but hey, it's neat.
www.consume.net
What the... ?!?!
Ahhhh, marketing. When will they learn? And right next to the "hacking sattelites" article. :)
Please help find my missing daughter: FindSabrina.org
For an ISP, yes. Especially when you consider an outfit that is willing to go into an exclusivity agreement with them will probably get another 20-30% slashed of the prices.
A few words on the technology, from what I read on their site. The modulation is BFSK (Binary Frequency Shift Keying) which is one of many different methods to implement frequency hopping spread spectrum and direct sequence spread spectrum. Unfortunately they don't delve into any details into the method they use.
Since it is spread spectrum, other units (not colocated) will not directly interfere. Spread spectrum signals look like wideband noise to other receivers that do not have the same hopping pattern. Activating one of these units will raise the noise floor in the LOS of it's signal.
If the equipment uses DSSS, well, that's ok, but not too exciting. DSSS has a problem with interference with other DSSS radios, and manifests itself by a sharp drop in bandwidth. If in the other hand this is using FHSS, then awesome. The only interference will be an increase in noise floor, which can be absorbed with a good enough link margin.
Link margin is what counts here. Several people have already mentioned questionable reliability as a mark against these technologies. That is simply not a problem with a properly margined link. In a wireless link, several factors affect your reception (and ultimately bandwidth and reliability). You will have signal losses in the feed cables, signal gains at the antenna, and signal losses due to free space propagation. Yes, rain and other atmospheric conditions do raise the term used in calculating free space losses at these frequencies.
Now, by a properly margined link, here is what I mean. Take the amount of power going out of one unit into its feeder cable, add the gains for the antenna on each end, subtract maximal expected freespace propagation loss. Now, based on your equipments specified signal to noise ratio (SNR) you can find the minimal power your receiver needs to decode the signal. Subtract it from the previous number, and you have a link margin. A higher link margin is a better link. What this measures is the "additional" power above and beyond what the receiver needs to pickup the signal. As long as this margin is enough to cover things like unusual atmospheric conditions, and nearby band interferers, you have a good, reliable link.
Finally, back to cost. These prices are decent for a local ISP exactly because of amortization. Think like cable companies that lease you the cable modem for a few dollars a month. If you disconnect your service, they get the unit back and can redeploy it. Next, focus on business users before the residential ones. Business customers are more willing to purchase equipment outright, instead of paying a lease amount (at least in my experience). This lets you concentrate your tiny pile of cash on building the POP end of the network, instead of footing the bill for each customer premise unit.
Yeah... I used to do this for a living. Headed the engineering department for a midsized wireless ISP that used technology like this. My email is listed if anyone has any questions.
Dave
It appears Ockham lost his razor and grew a beard.
The canopy system is designed to give 10Mbps to 200 user at a time, or 2Gbps per access point. If you lessen the number of connections, you can up the per user bandwidth. Of course this means the CPE stuff becomes more expensive.
-Charlie