Slashdot Mirror
Uptime Realities in the Internet World
schnurble writes: "My former boss has written an interesting article on the realities of uptime in the Internet World. It poses the idea that four and five nines of reliability are too expensive to be realistic, especially in the post dot-bomb economy. It's an interesting read, especially if you answer to an 800lb gorilla for outages and uptime issues."
Wouldn't you know it, an article about uptime...and slashdotted. Looks like he needs a mirror.
How many engineers out there have heard the marketing / sales 'it has to be always available' and priced out an infrastructure accordingly.
Even recently I'm working with a customer who wants a compromise between price and availability - but it still needs five nine's
Availability is infrastructure plus process. You need to have the supporting process to go along with the hardware - maintenance schedules, change management (well FCAPS in general), etc. It's not just a big box.
said if i can get this mentioned on slashdot, i'll get the raise after all...
::.. check out some Cell Phone Reviews
"My former boss"
;-)
Nice, and you go after your ex-boss by getting his article slashdotted!
The boss didn't do for, though. :(
Like the Telco... voice grade telco. Better than the power company.
Our web server does about 4 9's, which is a downtime of about 8 hours a year, I think. I really suck at math though. I mean it.. I'm so bad at math I have no idea if thats right. I said "well theres 8544 hours in a year, so 8 divided by that is 0.0009, so thats about 4 9s. I think. 8 hours of downtime isnt that bad. I think the next step up from 8 hours of downtime is essentially those megacorps that have redundant systems, and sirens go off and people die when their server goes down for under a second. In fact, I think if their server actually went down for more than a second, some sort of structual damage to the building hosting it is the only likely scenario. Course, that's closer to 7 9s. I cant figure out how long any of the other 9s are cause I only knew what our average downtime is, and could do the math that way only. Wow, its really hot in here.
Could someone with an 8th grade math education please post the amounts of downtime 1 through 9 9s are, please?!
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
I think we just knocked his server down to two nines by slashdotting it.
What else would motivate someone to post an ex-boss' e-mail address on the front page of slashdot?
I guess you don't have a pacemaker.
Some things ARE that important, most things aren't.
Let's see...five nines would be just over five minutes of downtime in a year (315 seconds). For business and other non-life-threatening situations, that would be way better than necessary. Lots of folks are probably going to harp on the "If 1 out of 10,000 airplanes crashed, there'd be X crashes" line of argument. There's a problem with that...one mistake doesn't crash an airplane. Every system on an airliner is redundant, and virtually any "pilot error" has time to be fixed before there's a problem. Listen in on the Air Traffic Control to Cockpit transmissions sometime...just about every flight encounters some minor error at some point, whether it is a pilot needing to reask for a clearance or someone needing to climb or descend a bit to clear a potential collision. Errors are unavoidable. The key is to ensure recovery from those errors is possible. So sure, your computer may be down for 5 minutes a year. Make sure you have a backup system that is able to take up the slack instantly, and your downtime is down to 3/10 of a second a year. Redundancy is the key.
The results from uptime.netcraft.com seem a bit hokey (sp?) at times since it does not take load balanced web servers into consideration, network outages, etc. In my case, I had a server down for about under a day to be rebuilt and brought it back up... checked the NetCraft results a couple of days later, it didn't show that the site had gone down.
I know there are some projects/sites that will allow people to submit uptimes sent from cron jobs or agents to a server, which then stores the uptime data there. Of course, that doesn't mean that you can just generate junk data (ie: 999 day uptime with 2934 users).
Five nines uptime is cheap and easy. It all boils down to where you put the decimal point.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
I hope that LEIN database is on a network that has a better record for delivering the data within a few seconds than the public internet. It doesn't matter how good your server is if your IP traffic got crowded off the net by 3,000 nerds downloading pr0n...
If you want to learn about uptime, don't bother going to codesta.com. Their servers have already melted from a brutal slashdotting. According to Netcraft, codesta.com runs Linux and has 74 days of uptime... until today!
cpeterso
Heh... Switzerland....
Some factors that precede recent crash between Tu-154 and Boeing 757 DHL were
- Traffic warining system in its scheduled 10-minutes maintenance - dispatcher got no warnings
- Busy phone lines to dispatch - Deutch dispatch was not able to get to Switzerland dispatch to tell them about dangerous situation...
This is an example that cost a lot of lives...
(other tragic circumstance was that pilots of Tu-154 gave priority to dispatch commands instead of commands of collision avoidance system...)
The "five-nines" of reliability has nothing to do with an individual server being available, but with a n individual application. This means, you can have 2-3 servers running the same load-balanced application. This way, you can take 1 down every hour if you want, as long as the other one or two are still working. This way, the application is still working. If you're REALLLLLLLLY lucky, you will meet the "five-nines" and if you're EXTREEEEEMELY lucky, you'll get 100% on that application.
THAT is the goal. It's called redundancy. You will *not* meet any reliability milestones on a single server or network link. It's an obtainable goal, but it does cost money depending on your architecture.
Not true. Five 9s in the airlines means that you'd see an airliner late or in some other way unavailable - possibly due to a crash, but not likely - every other day. Reliability is the availability to do what you need, when you need it. If a server is up 100% of the time, but is not able to be accessed because the network is down, the system is not reliable for you.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Too Bad that a lot of the servers on the top 50 uptime list still have the default page that apache provides.
I'm sure it isn't too difficult to keep them running - just make sure the power is on and the network cable is plugged in.
Yeah, I'm glad the local nuclear power plant decided to save money and only go with 3 nines of reliability.
I wonder if the internet will glow in the dark after the nuclear power plant's webserver melts down? Hey, maybe that is where Trolls come from.
Let me give you a hypothetical case. One of our clients does about $50k/month on their web site. When the site was built, they were only expecting $10000-$15000/month. At the time, NN4 compatibility wasn't important, because the extra cost ($10k) wasn't going to be worth it. With NN4 sitting between 5% and 10% each month, they have decided that NN4 compatibility is important in the next version.
When we launched, 3 days of downtime a month was considered okay. It was considered a better choice than spending an extra $5k on hardware for redundancy. Well, when the site broke $40k/month, we immediately decided that that was no good and invested in the redundancy.
The site has had a few 15 minute outages over the past 6 months, and a 1 day outage over a holiday weekend (not a big deal). However, if the site doubles in revenue again, downtime is becoming less acceptable, and we'll drop $10k to avoid it.
If your site sucks and no one visits, downtime doesn't matter. If you are making lots of money, downtime does matter. $10k on hardware is worth it if the downtime would cost you $25k?
Alex
Actually, even this is silly. True five nines availability on a widely distributed network would mean that an application was available at all times on all segments of the network. Which would mean that your uptime depends not only on your redundancy on one side of a pipe, but on your overall reduncancy as well, so that when a pipe goes down you're still accessible. Since when a pipe goes down in your host you probably lose other resources as well (such as power or alternate pipelines), this means multiple datahouses owned by multiple vendors. Each of these has to have a perfect backup of all data and be running the same versions of all software. Really, the only true redunancy would be so heavily distributed that each local network would basically have to have its own server. This isn't so crazy -- technically, DNS and email do this. However, we all know that for an end user even DNS and email can have perceived outtages.
And this is why 5 9s is foolish. Sure, you're redundant behind the pipe, but if you lose the pipe you can't blame your datacenter when you charged a customer for uninterrupted service. Technically, if their modem disconnects them for a few hours you've broken contract.
Besides, who needs it? If yahoo is unreachible from my desk, I wait and reconnect. It doesn't matter if the downtime was my fault or theirs...the effect on my user experience was the same. Any services I might have used, or products purchased, I will use or purchase at a later time. After all, I don't refrain from buying shoes just because the mall is closed!
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Good luck applying Six Sigma to processes that aren't directly related to manufacturing something ... ;)
:)
I really mean that - Good Luck.
I believe theres more to this than meet the eye.
What other best way to get back on your former boss than slashdotting him or his company server back to medieval ages..
Follow that up with multiple queries on google about boss's info, credit cards, ssn etc..
To cut things short, by the end of the week :
Boss's boss realizes the server crashes were due to Boss, fires his ass on the spot.
Wife realizes that the new unexplained charges on Credit card from "Suzy's Parlor" were not exactly the next door cafe. Gives him the boot as well.
You evil man..you!
Rapid Nirvana
We did it on a really low budget:
Heartbeat/Mon/Fake/Coda/Linux/IPVS for the High Availability, failover from DS1->DS2, each on different backbone nodes.
Mirrored systems in different geographic locations:
Firewall
IPVS Gateway
Apache->Weblogic bridge (Apache vhosts with ssl)
Apache->Zope bridge (Apache vhosts with ssl)
Zope->Zeo setup for content management.
SAN drive array for Oracle, running on two E4500s
This system isn't really that expensive, just the costs of hardware and my salary for setting them up.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
No, it means that a jetliner has to be operating for a year with just 3 mins in the hangar. But about half its lifetime a jetliner is in maintenance, giving it an uptime of about 50%.
Entirely. Having worked extensively on the flight deck systems for the Boeing 767-400ER, I can tell you first hand that the redundancy is rather amazing. There are two major computer systems that drive the displays in the cockpit, the DPCs which do a lot of digital signal manipulation and the DCCs which do a lot of the analog to digital signal manipulation and control. Two DCC boxes drive three DPC boxes and the two DCC boxes are cross-connected to each of the DPC boxes. The three DPC boxes each talk to each other (I'm not sure if the DCC boxes talked to each other - that was further down the chain than I was working on) and actually vote on the data points that are being sent to the displays to determine if one of the DPCs is malfunctioning or processing bad data. The way this all works together is amazingly complicated, especially when you consider that it all runs on embedded boards where the "executable" is typically less than 1-2MBs in size.
... especially the way its actually implemented in the embedded system. Debugging all this, of course, was non-trivial. For that matter, coding it is non-trivial as its all in Ada83.
... those were the days :)
My particular area of development was the actual display software which was provided data from the DPC systems. Each of the six displays (2-pilot, 2-copilot, 2-EICAS in the console) received multi-cast data from each of the DPCs and then fed data back to the DPCs on the display's status. The DPCs would then automagically evaluate if the displays were functioning properly and switch primary functions away from a malfunctioning display to a functioning display if error conditions were detected.
The PFD (primary flight display) is the pilots most important display as it displays airspeed, artificial horizon, TCAS warnings, altitude and a few other things. The ND (navigation display) is the inner screen on both the pilot/co-pilot sides and if the PFD experiences error conditions, the DPCs switch the PFD to the ND and the ND to one of the EICAS (engine indicators, etc.) displays.
All very interesting stuff
Ahh
Remember that downtime is related not only to reliability of each piece of equipment but the number of pieces of equipment. 99.99% uptime sounds good, less than an hour of downtime a year, right? Scale that to a 500-server farm and it's an hour and ten minutes or so of downtime a day, every single day of the year including weekends and holidays (OK, we'll give you one day off in leap years). This concept has boggled a few salescritters who don't grasp the concept of scale.
> Too Bad that a lot of the servers on the top 50 uptime list still have the default page that apache provides. I'm sure it isn't too difficult to keep them running - just make sure the power is on and the network cable is plugged in.
Historically, some very popular and widely sold operating systems couldn't even do that much.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
And frankly I'd rather not be in a plane that lost control for five minutes once a year.
As long as it's parked on the ground during those five minutes, it's no problem.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
"Are ve up?"
"Nien."
"Are ve up yet?"
"Nien."
"How about NOW?"
"Nien."
"Vill ve be comink up soon?"
"Nien."
"Vill ve be up next veek?"
"Nien."
God is real unless declared integer
My company does lots of things, but almost no manufacturing (our local office provides engineering services to the government and military). We also got hit with the Six Sigma marketing buzz, and our stupid (now departed) CEO decided that they needed to initiate the garbage company wide. I've managed to avoid it so far, but I've passed by the conference room occasionally while sessions have been going on, and I would have to say that it would score real close to 10 on the Wank-o-meter. All of the engineers who have been subjected to it have said it's nothing more than good engineering practice that they should have learned in school. But maybe it's good for the administrative/marketing types.
Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
It's instructive to read about the United Flight 232 incident a few years back. The #2 engine of a DC-10 exploded in flight (at around 30,000 feet) and severed ALL the hydraulic systems and their backups. Without rudder, ailerons, elevator, spoilers, flaps, or one of the three engines, the pilots set the plane up for a forced landing. And about 200 of the 300 passengers on board survived.
Of course, certain bugs can be really bad. I was down at Boeing Field once last year when somebody attempted to take off in a light plane that had just been serviced. Unfortunately the mechanic hooked up the ailerons backwards, so that when the pilot attempted to correct for a crosswind on takeoff, he promptly rolled and landed on top of another plane in the parking area. (Sounds like inadequate preflight action by the pilot on that one, since he appears to have missed the "control surfaces free and correct" item on his pre-takeoff checklist, but no injuries to the best of my knowledge.)
Note that I'm hardly going to argue that flight-control software shouldn't be damn good. But... it's overstating your case to assume that downtime or error necessarily means a plane is going to fall out of the sky.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
Having the 5 9's of reliability is NOT foolish. It is a reality of life. My particular organization services 40 million web customers, so we can not afford to be down at any time of the day because of the type of service we provide. In fact, last year we made our goal of having the 5-9's, and we did it without needing our disaster recovery (DR) site.
Having a DR plan and being reliable go hand in hand for the most part, however under normal day-to-day business conditions, servers need to be upgraded and things unplugged. You don't switch your entire infrastructure over to a DR site to upgrade your apache web server!! It is for this reason you have redundancy on the network and server level leading out to the Internet (or wherever your customer base resides).
Disasters, on the other hand, do not happen everyday. They happen once a year, maybe.... sometimes once every 2 years. If you live in an area more prone to disasters (like southern California), you may need an alternate site located on the east coast.... but, that is the cost of doing business.
Also, having 5-9's on uptime does NOT mean being accessible to everyone in the world at any time no matter what. Having 5-9's of uptime means that your organization has successfully kept it's applications and services available to the Internet. How is it my company's fault if you don't plug your modem into the wall? It's not, so to say that our "reliability" decreases because of an end user being a moron is a stupid statement.
Not to sound like a suit, but it's really about total cost of ownership. For example, software RAID comes with most modern operating systems, but you still need to power down the server to remove and replace a failed drive. However, if you make the upfront investment in a hardware RAID controller with hot-swap capability, you save time and reduce tech support calls, saving money in the long run. If you're offering commercial services (as an ISP or whatever), you start to develop a reputation for reliability that will earn you more customers over time.
Five-nine reliability in the airline industry would mean that we'd see a major commercial jetliner crash about every other day.
At first I didn't believe you.
According to this page, there were 10 fatal accidents in 18 million flights in 1998. That is a little worse tthan six nines. Five nines would be 180 flights, or almost exactly every other day.
I'm really glad I checked before spouting off. :-) Did you know that stat or did you pull it out of the air?
The Scenario
Pagers going off. Phones ringing. People shouting fragments of conversations over the tops of cubicles. Groups of people huddled around monitors. Others dashing up and down the hallways, sticking their heads into office doors for just a moment, then scampering along to the next doorway. You are frantically talking on your cell phone, silencing your pager, and yelling into the speakerphone on your desk while typing on two different keyboards attached to three different monitors.
Sound familiar? It's a classic case of the dreaded 'downtime' disease, a terrible ailment where none of your systems work and for reasons you can't always understand. Of course, it typically strikes at the most inopportune moments - the launch of a major product upgrade, or right after announcing your partnerships with 5 of the Fortune 100.
Nobody wants downtime. It's a terrible thing that always involves blood, sweat, tears, and inevitably, a loss of money. This is why when you talk to the upper management of any company with a strategic online initiative you'll be told that the IT group has the highest goals, and that downtime is considered to be an anathema to be stamped out vigorously.
Unfortunately, when you talk to the company's IT manager you commonly hear a different story; the resources to back-up the company's lofty online goals are hard to come by. In fact, with the down swing of the last couple years, combined with the fact that IT isn't, at least directly, a revenue generating entity, IT budgets are being reduced while uptime performance levels are expected to be the same. This can just lead to a death march of extremely over-worked IT personnel, and longer, more numerous, occurrences of system downtime. These goals need to be re-evaluated.
Genesis of the 'Five Nines'
We've all heard the mantra of 'five nines', or 99.999% reliability. Somewhere in the depths of the Internet's 'big bang', when systems were slow and cranky, reliability became a major selling point of why one company's system was 'better' than the competition.
First, people talked about being 'two nines' or 99% reliable. Then someone else would top that, and make their product seem better, claiming 'three nines' (99.9%). Not long after that came 'four nines' (99.99%) and then, near the peak of the dot com era, came 'five nines'.
The herd mentality left no room in which to pitch for investment without the 'five nines' claim. "After all," it was thought, ôif everyone else is saying they can provide 'five nines', I'd have to pretend I didn't know what I was doing if I didn't say I could match everyone else's claim."
'Five nines' isn't impossible. It's merely impractical and unnecessary in the world of the Internet. A shocking statement, perhaps, but a truism none-the-less.
We're not talking about launching people into space (which, by the way, is unfortunately done under 'three nines'), or working with nuclear power plants. We're working within the reference of online systems providing services to users both on and off the Internet - nobody dies from a system failure.
The Greasy Steel Bar
Think of uptime as a chin-up bar coated in grease. The higher the reliability desired, the greater the coating of grease. It's clearly tougher to hang to a higher standard of reliability.
What's not so obvious, but very important, is that the higher the uptime target, the worse one does if not prepared. An IT department capable of three nines faced with a bar that's five nines slippery won't even manage the three nines they are capable of doing.
The same thing happened to me once, a little puddlejumper from Dallas or Houstan to Austin, I think it was.
Anywho, the pilot revs up the engine, then throttles it back done. Fine, brakes and throttle work. Throttles back up, trips the brakes, and off we go screaming down the runway.
Then the plane slows down, and stops.
Pilot comes on the intercom and says 'Um, folks, you may have noticed, we didn't take off. A warning light has come on in the cockpit, and we don't know why. Until we do, we're going to stay right here.
Now, that's not the bad part. The heat and humidity, and a plane full of sweaty smelly passengers isn't the bad part, either.
No, the bad part was the pair of off duty pilots in the seats next to me who started, in loving detail, discussing every thing that could possibly be wrong.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Yeah, and when some systems fail, it doesn't actually matter.
.com boom was pissant little companies demanding 100% uptime, spending a fortune on Oracle and redundant data centres and shit, when they didn't need that reliability. Their business plan didn't call for it, their demographic didn't call for it, nothing called for it. They were engineering their shithouse little business' systems like they were for the A&E department of a hostpital.
One thing I saw again and again during the
And that's the point the guy seems to be making: people are spending millions of dollars where they only need to spend a tenth that, to build systems you could run a trading floor with.
Nein!
You are not making the distiction between "server uptime" and "service uptime". When people talk about 99.something% uptime, they are ususlly refering to "service uptime". With proper hardware (redundancy etc ..) you can reboot servers, change disks, memory and even routers and it won't cost you even 1 second of "service downtime".
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc