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Ximian Desktop Installer, Red Carpet, and MonkeyTalk
An anonymous reader submits: "Long-time Linux users forget what it is like to try to install something for the first time. Ximian has done a nice job writing scripts to hide the inner workings of a Gnome installation. TuxReports has snapshots of the Ximian installer. Do you believe that all Linux distributions should use such a friendly series of dialog boxes in order to attract more users to Linux?" Update: 07/14 21:13 GMT by M : Tuxreports has provided a non-PHP page for us to link to... whoops. Sorry about that.
I know they've got deals with various Unix hardware vendors, but how does Ximian plan on making money off of Red Carpet?
The potential of OSS won't be truly realized until it's actually easier to deploy than commercial offerings.
I was particularly impressed by PostNuke's no sweat installation procedure... it made me realize just how much more far-reaching it's effect on society is going to be if society is actually able to use it.
This is exactly what every piece of linux software needs. If I could install any piece of linux software with a friendly series of dialog boxes just like with install shiled in windows, I would use linux much more often. The number 1 reason I don't use linux as much is because I don't want to have to manage all of the different versions of software. Mozilla has a nice graphical installation, so do some other things. Not having to deal with rpms and all the other types of source and binary packages would be a great weight off my shoulders. You apt-get guys and you linux gurus might disagree. But I hope this is a trend that continues and becomes the standard for linux software.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
If you corrupt your box with this Ximian Gnome, you will not be able to upgrade Red Hat without uninstalling Ximian beforehand, or manually replacing all Gnome RPMs after the upgrade.
This is something they don't tell you in all those "friendly installers".
Other things may break, such as the Red Hat Network, when a Gnome related updated comes down the line. Of course if you plan to only use Red Carpet after installing Ximian, then that's not a problem.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I think a lot of it depends on the Distro. Let's face it, I'm not sure Debian will ever be as friendly as Mandrake, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Personally, I would much rather have the Debian staff working to get woody stable than be writing cute little graphical wizards. Mandrake on the other hand, yeah, I think it's wonderful what they're doing trying to get linux into the hands of more people by easing the installing process. But isn't that why despite wild differences many Linux distro's fare reasonably well in popularity?
So to answer the original article: What Ximian and others are doing is a wonderful. But I think there's no reason for all the distro's to jump on the user-proof bandwagon.
I hate having to manually install things myself, so I use gentoo linux with a nice bsd style fake ports system, so when I want to install gnome for example, I just type "emerge gnome". Personally, I find that a lot simpler than waiting for that gui client to load up and then check through a bunch of boxes. The idea is simply great though. I think debian also has a lot of this, except that the packages are too often slightly out of date. When I ran red hat, the ximian red carpet was a godsend. Personally, I think it should come standard with red hat, for all those newbies who have trouble dealing with dependencies themselves.
If the Ximian release of gnome2.0 is anything like their 1.4 release, we should really be in for a treat. They manage that slick easy to use polish without dumbing everything down. My only complaint is the 'doorman' or whatever it's called goes a little bit too newbieish.
... droolworthy work from those two.
Other than that, I always point users to the Ximian stuff, especially if they're coming from windows. It doesn't behave like windows, but it's set up really professionally.
My complaint is this: Why aren't distro's packaging ximian gnome as the default gnome distro? We all know Redhat kind of ignores the linux desktop, concentrating on the server stuff. If I was them, I'd package ximian and have an instant polished gnome desktop. Redhat employs enough gnome hackers, that in a sense, they're already subsidizing the cost of Ximian gnome anyway.
Not to take anything away from the RH gnome install, but why reinvent the wheel, Ximian has done most of the work already.
And I think everyone agrees that jimmnac and tigert could be the best linux artists anywhere
I agree that wizards are good for people that don't know the basics about configuring packages and programs. They are a good way to get people to use software that they might not otherwise may be able to set up properly. However, wizards often suffer from WYSIAYG (What You See Is All You've Got). If a setting that may be important for a small number of users is left out of a wizard, then you hinder their ability to configure. However, general GUI configuration utilities are good too. For example, SWAT is a great example of a GUI configuration utility that is not a wizard.
:-)), people don't have to learn to use their computer.
While graphical is good for beginners and some advanced users, you also should provide flexibility. Configuration files were made to be edited by hand! This is why Linux is so popular, flexibility. By hiding configuration behind a wizard and storing that configuration in a proprietary, non-text format like some large software vender who shall remain nameless, configuration files provide for flexibility. Not to mention that big configuration files (sendmail.cf for example) allow the user to learn from their mistakes, and it is a right of passage to set up one correctly for the first time. It used to be the same for X, but now with all of the wizards (which don't work on all new cards
No. I don't think all distributions should include such dialog boxes. Not all users want all the hand holding. There should be different distributions for different types of users.
I'm not comfortable on a Red Hat or Mandrake box because I like to do things myself. On the other hand, those who just want to "do stuff" wouldn't be comfortable with a Slackware or Debian box.
Just my opinion
Keep It Simple Stupid! The more transparency to hide more of the detailed options from the users will help, especially considering I just installed WinXP onto a machine (as a test - to see what all the fuss was about) and it was a breeze. M$ may make crap operating systems, but they do know how to make good interfaces (maybe I should have stayed awake during my first year HCI lectures). But the option of hiding all the 'difficult' settings shouldn't come at the price of not letting the more knowledgeable user from being able to access those functions that are hidden, i.e. take WinXP vs. Win2k user accounts, hmmm lets go from multple user options to two -> 'root' and 'user', they hid so much stuff they lost it (a bit like their ethical backbone i suppose). Remember guys, KISS!
Hrmn. Well, it's not as though redcarpet is *replacing* debs or rpms. It's a GUI, nothing more, nothing less. That it's easy to use and looks sharp is a nice bonus.
You're still able to install things by building from source or via deb or rpm. It's merely giving you more choice and making it conceivable that your mum can keep her own system up to date / install software for herself.
Installing Ximian is sticky in the same way that Installing an updated IE on a Windows system reached in and changed operating system components.
.ximian in the name and was able to successfully update to Limbo. But it ate a couple of days threshing around.
I had Ximian on Redhat 7.3, then when I upgraded to the Limbo beta the installation notes warned of dire conflicts between unnamed ximian RPMs and recommended removing Ximian from the machine.
There is no option I could find to roll back Ximian, the same way that there was no option to roll back an IE upgrade on Windows.
In the end I used GnoRPM to nuke eavery rpm with
Worth bearing in mind that Ximian is a major brain transplant for your OS and that may have impacts later. But on the positive side, it was very slick and the red carpet thing was nice.
But I am happier with the stuff in Limbo, it rocks!
I think that it is vital that we keep the FUD about Linux being difficult to configure and setup true. I mean, why make it easier for end users, if they aren't geeks and contributing to the OS community, do we care?
Wizards are for weenies... That is why evil Bill uses them so heavily, its not to make it easier for people to use his software... Its to limit feature creep... If you can guide the user right down the hall and not have him looking into each office along the way, you can reduce testing costs, less security etc.
Damn, I hope Linux will start having more Wizards... It saves so much time and gives users a feeling of satisfaction and confidence... and with the Cancel button always there, a way to back out should they become concerned.
What a dumb question to ask... Should we make software easier to use..
Yes!!!!!!!!
Tournament Management Online &
Of course, I wouldn't ask my Mom to use apt-get. I'd put it in a cron job for her.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
TuxReports had snapshots of the Ximian installer.
Have you not heard of Debian before? Or Gentoo? Your argument is utterly invalid. I have been using Linux for nigh on 2 years and have not experienced a single dependency related problem, excluding the ones Ive helped RedHat users with on IRC!
loply.com
I've been using Linux for the past 3 years. Love it dearly. I used to use Ximian GNOME, but have come to prefer the more mature and cleaner GUI of KDE (personal preference, NOT intended as a flame). Unfortunately, KDE is very hard, at least in my experience, to upgrade. I've used Red Hat and Mandrake distros, and have settled into using Red Hat mostly. I've never sucessfully upgraded a KDE installation on my box. Yes, I should try harder to learn how to do it, but I usually wait for another distro to come out with the upgraded version. Seeing as how painless Ximian GNOME is to install and to maintain/upgrade, I see no reason why KDE shouldn't have something similar. This is KDE's greatest weakness, IMHO.
Corporatism != Free Market
Nobody has ever achieved both of these to any great extent in one OS. I dont think its possbile to have Linux style power with Windows style newbie-friendlieness (note: newbie friendly != user friendly).
loply.com
I run a Mandrake box. My wife has on OS X laptop. No point for guessing which system is easier to install new software on (hint - it's not the one that has an AMD inside).
/bin, /sbin, /usr/bin. Because I can drag a program I'm tired of to the trash can.. Because I can go to one location - the Applications folder - to find any new program I install. Or, if it's a command-line app, I can go to one location - /bin - for everything.
I love Linux. I love GNU. I love open source software.
But my next machine will be a Mac.Why?
Because package management is a breeze. I don't have to know the difference between
If the open source community wants to know how break into the desktop market, look no further than Mac OS X. Whether you like the system or not, in OS X is a *nix system that has a highly user friendly interface, excellent graphic-based package management, and all the other bells and whistles that the mass desktop market craves.
I am concerned about any program, any piece of hardware, any treaty, any law that treats me as a consumer, not a citizen
for the Mac & Windows. Some are "blessed" by the OS Distributor and some are crafted according to written guidelines provided by the OS Distributor. The OS X installer is GREAT in that respect.
The situation MUST become the same for Linux. There must come to be some "blessed" slick GUI installer that can also run "headless" from a command line.
It should implement a state transition engine and run from a state machine which goes from an initial state "not-installed", through paths for the distros, dependencies to a terminal state of "software registered."
To make the situation complete, it must detect the distro (and therefore the install paths, dependencies and destination directories,) the GUI in use, if any, and be able to completely install AND UNINSTALL by walking backwards through the installer log undoing what was done and cleaning up all debris.
The installer "experience" is standard for the user because everybody is using the same packages or near clones of these packages to install any and every ol' thing.
And this is a lot easier for a user (or a SysAdmin,) to deal with than the ideosynchratic and often badly written readme.txt files written by somebody who just doesn't "get it" and can't remember what he didn't know when he first started out.
And the excuse that "it wasn't easy to write so it shouldn't be easy to install" is the refuge of lazy-ass, elitist, nerdy schmucks who don't have friends to watch over their shoulder, correct their grammar and actually try and test out their installation instructions to detect all the "missing" information.
Its called QA folks and you'd better get used to it or you're wasting your time pretending that you're IT pros.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Do you believe that all Linux distributions should use such a friendly series of dialog boxes in order to attract more users to Linux?
Actually, I'd like to see Linux preinstalled on more computers so that users don't have to install at all.
...
/* Package installer version 66.6 */
....
printf("Translating all source code for requested package.\n);
printf("--- Successful ---\n");
printf("Half of text in requested package will print in Esperanto. The other half will print in pig-latinized-Klingon.\n");
printf("Creating random name for package executable...\n");
printf("Searching drive for obscure installation location...\n");
printf("Oops! There are 348,899,001 extra dependencies that this package relies on. Do you wish to go through them one by one?"\n);
printf("Just kidding. Compilation was successful. Package is hiding in...\n");
printf("...You don't actually think I'm going to tell you where to find this, do you?! Hahahaha!\n";
I am concerned about any program, any piece of hardware, any treaty, any law that treats me as a consumer, not a citizen
But for experts as well, sure we know how to use configure; make; make install; but how tedious is that ? The homegrown RPM tools for the RPM based distros take time to learn and are slow, and if you're an expert already you know how to use the rpm commandline faster than the GUI. But wouldn't it be nice to just click on setup.sh or just run setup.sh and have the program do everything for you ?. If anything, have a GUI frontend to configure, so configure -d gives you all the options and you just check on them ?.
I think linux needs something like a VISE installer, that will follow the LSB.
I think most people here would prefer to install linux by manipulating the hard drive with magnets ...
wow, something that people been yelling for years.. are they finally going to make things more user friendly? The ONLY thing keeping me from changing to linux (windows user now of course) is the userUNfriendliness.
Seen the setup of KYLIX? (Delphi for linux) that's how it's s'posed to be.
Cheers.
Don't you hate it when coders put spaces after an opening bracket and one before a closing bracket? - MrVinz.
If I wanted something that is easy to use I would buy a banana.
If I wanted to make Linux accessible to monkeys I would shape it like a stick and place it under a banana tree.
Seriously, though, a nice user interface never hurt anybody. Just let us geeks keep our command line and we'll be happy.
"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them." -- George H. W. Bush
Although, I'd prefer if Ximian had a command line option. It's a real pain to ssh in and export X JUST to update damn software! If they had a ximian-update -all option, I'd be in heaven..how is that harder??
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Mainly because I don't get to put -Rf or -vxpf or -Ufdlw behind an 'OK' button, and keystrokes are easier (when you know what they mean) than a GUI that changes the location of it's options with every new version.
I can not '$>man OkButton()', while I can 'man find', or 'man ksh', etc...
Only one installer question should be needed:
Any more than that, and half the world would not be able to install it right.now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I've recently installed OpenOffice, Gimp, Gimp-Print, QT3, Ogg v 1.0 (released today!), and Ghostscript - some source, some binary - and all I had to do was follow the short instructions in the INSTALL/README files.
It just doesn't get much easier than that on a system that's worth having.
Like I said, though, upgrades of binaries quickly becomes a nightmare with things like KDE where there's lots of interdependacies between lots of packages but installing isn't that hard any more.
Even then, if you are Joe Average you'll probably just wait for the next point-release of the whole distro and that will generally update everything in one fell swoop anyway.
Maybe even upgrades are just a problem because the sort of people that use /. are the sort that fiddle with their systems all the time and get themselves into trouble.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
So maybe you should start the OSEB (Open Source Education Board). Start a board that would talk about how to properly expose different levels of users, the appropriate skills. You'll have to pick "best of breed" apps to teach the use and pricipals of, but maybe after they get out of the class room (if that's how you choose the do it), they will branch out on their own. Oh yeah, you'll need a teaching crew, that not only knows what they are doing, but can read/write/speek in many languages.
Good luck with all of that!
Now back to the topic at hand....
# I'm going to try to keep this message as politically correct
# as possible. I think the Ximian GNOME is a very pretty desktop
# and the hackers there do an extraordinary amount of work on
# them. But it throws a huge wrench in our upgrade process. We
# just want to warn our users that there are packages on the system
# that might get messed up during the upgrade process. Nothing
# personal, guys. - msw
You aren't remembered for doing what is expected of you
"I" was saying that a command line install is the same as a GUI install. The poster said he needed a GUI install. I was trying to imply that a command line install is the SAME. I am a cLI user myself, so I understand your argument
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Checkinstall is slick set of scripts wrapped around installwatch. Basically you do the ./configure and make parts as usual. Instead of "make install" you type "checkinstall" and pick slackware, rpm, or deb from a menu. It then installs the package and builds an rpm, deb, or tgz if it needs to be reinstalled later. The best part is that the package can be removed using the distro's normal package manager.
It can even take an alternate command if "make install" isn't what installs the package. The other nice thing is that the resulting package can be installed on other machines running the same distro.
It isn't good for "core" stuff like glibc but it's great for all these little proggies and utilities that I try out from Freshmeat. I used it with good results to get the latest Audacity and Galeon when they weren't in Debian testing.
All software should be free.
(if you don't know what I mean by free, then click on my sig)
It's not a distro war. It's just a suggestion. RedHat does have problems with dependencies. Debian does not have problems with dependencies. Debian just works, and keeps on working, no matter how much you upgrade it. apt-get update; apt-get upgrade have never given me troubles. And it has saved me a lot of time, compared to earlier times when RedHat, Mandrake or Slackware forced me to do a reinstall every 6 months (if I wanted something new to play with). I realize that there are other reasons to like RedHat (such as commercial support (nah, probably not), or that it's the preferred target of most commercial application vendors (yes, that's really a good reason). But if solving the dependency problems are more important to you, then Debian is the way to go.
Probably, but I don't see much of a reason for it. There are two operations: "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade". Having a GUI would mostly be like Windows (press Next to continue, Next, Next, "I agree", Next, Next, Next, Next, Next, Next, Next, Next, Finish). I never saw much of a point in that. If I could type "install -yes" in windows, I would do that as well.
It's called "make".
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
Why does it have to be an either/or situation? Just because a method that's easier for average users (including newbies) is *available* doesn't necessarily mean the OS is "dumbed down".
Frex, in Windows I can either use TweakUI (handy GUI that present options in a format the average user can understand) or RegEdit (hand-edit where you REALLY need to know exactly what you're doing -- anyone here want to claim the registry is "dumbed down"??); in DRDOS, I can configure the system by using the installer configuration doodad, which makes config decisions easy for newbies, or I can hand-edit the config files myself (again, needing to know what I'm doing) and achieve the exact same end result.
Now, if DOS and Win32 can both manage this, why not linux??
I swear, the real problem is linux bigots who measure their self-worth by the degree of superiority they feel because THEY can handle an abstruse OS, but lowly average folk can't.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
We already have a standardized packaging system and I don't think autopackage will change that. Why not create a good apt-get frontend? Or, if you need to actually change somethign within RPM, submit your changes to the RPM maintainer. I wouldn't install autopackage on my system the same way I wouldn't install any other unpackaged app: the effectiveness of *any* management system is linked with its ubiquity.
To each his own. I enjoy that I have the option of tweaking an application the way I want it it work, however the real question lies with this:
How many end users, meaning workstation users actually do this? I want the ability to install a powerful desktop management software tool like gnome2, however I cant justify clouting my system with libraries that remain even after a "full" removal. We get into the very same problem we saw back in windows 3.11 where removing a program REALLY didnt remove all of its contents. What we are looking for is a system that doesnt need to cleaned, but one which is self contained within a packaging system. Ximian has the right idea and thats why i will wait until they put out GNOME 2.0, rather than painfully going though each rpm, each tgz, each bz2 file. It just plain sucks, Ximian offers a CLEAN approach to installing GNOME2.0. To them and however they do make money, I say thank you!
All the linux community wants is easy package management that handles dependencies somewhat transparent. For those of you who have wasted hours of your precious life trying to install these components separately, my hat goes off to you...
Beware, the trend of OSS is in danger by commercial entities claiming stake to what is rightfully GPL'ed...SLASHDOT I do believe this another issue.
FreeBSD AND Mandrake you guys ROCK!!
...and at the end of the day, 99% of people just want to get their work done. We /. readers forget that we're in a vocal minority. Most people could care less about 'flexibility.' They simply want to get their work done. That's why Mac OS X has taken the world by storm (and Linux has failed to outside of the small geek subculture). Case in point: I had a party the other night, with a mixed group in attendance: everyone from engineers to musicians to sculptors. When I mentioned Linux, I got mostly blank stares. However, when I mentioned OS X, people said, 'Oh yeah! Macs rock!' In fact, my next non-Windows system will most likely not run Linux. It'll run Mac OS X.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
My only problem with red-carpet is that it considers the -ximian version as an update to the ones that the distro has for the EXACT same release.
What happens is that redhat's up2date putss the RH version of the item, and then redcarpet wants to reinstall it as the -ximian version.
I understand that they do this to make sure that the dependancies are completely known to their system so that their own apps dont break... but still... annoying...
PS: this also makes it so that when upgrading a RH72+ximian system to rh73, you get that annoying warning... Luckily going ahead with the update (ignoring the warning, which installs RH versions of some of the same files that red-carpet had updated); and then RERUNNING red-carpet again on R73 gets things working correctly again by reinstalling the -ximian versions of things...
--
Time is on my side
I agree wrt ximian still needing some work...
/var/redcarpet /someotherdisksdirectory/redcarpet
/someotherdisksdirectory/redcarpet /var/redcarpet
/var/redcarpet [/var/redcarpet would be an empty dir.. then move the redcarpet dir as above and then mount /dev/hdx /var/redcarpet
but UM... here is where the power and verstile nature of the Linux file system structure comes to play. You have at least two possible options.
1-symbolic links... [first move the redcarpet dir, then link the location that the app expects to find the files to the new location]
mv
ln -s
2- Mount a bigger disk in
--
Time is on my side
I hope I never have to try and install and configure (usually part of the install script) apache via a million clicks.
I disagree. While graphical installers make things better for the novice, for the advanced user it has little to offer and constricts in so many ways. People don't just choose to use a terminal over a gui just to be l337, I and many more people use it because it is faster to get stuff done and also it can be highly configured and scripted to do things automatically.
I mean, a gui has to give all the options through visual elements, meaning a lot of buttons/menus to navigate. The only way to keep any reasonably powerful application from being unwieldy is to stick options into many submenus. While this helps those who do not know what options or available, or need prompting to remember what to do, for people who do know and remember, the command line allows entering it directly. Hell, with a nice shell and good completion functions, tab completion could show what can be done at any point. GUIs are nice to complement command line utilities, but people using the command line are not simply doing it to be 'elite'.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.