Mandrake Hits Wal-Mart (.com)

caveat writes: "The Register is reporting that Wal-Mart is shipping PCs with Mandrake preinstalled. 'Prices range from $391 for a 900MHz Duron machine to $648 for a 2GHz Pentium 4 with CD-RW.' more power to them." So now walmart.com customers seeking a pre-installed Free OS aren't limited to Lindows. I wonder if any Wal-Mart manager is brave enough to actually set up a few machines in-store. Update: 07/15 15:35 GMT by T : As many people have pointed out, the systems running Mandrake -- just like the Lindows machines on offer -- are only available through Wal-Mart's website.

Comments

Re:Can buy one online

[prof187]

Yes you can.

Proof of Concept

[div_2n]

I may go buy one to use as a test machine just to help prove that people will buy one. At $400 I think I can swallow not building my own just to provide proof of concept to the powers that be.

Re:Proof of Concept

[sugrshack]

I think it's good that mainstream places like Walmart are offering alternatives to the Microsoft juggernaut, however it's kind of like fighting evil with evil.

I generally try to avoid Walmart if possible; the way that they treat their employees is unforgivable. As they continue to drive out competition, they make it harder and harder for people with grievances to do anything. Witness their union-busting practices.

Re:Proof of Concept

[Peyna]

Walmart also pays hush-money to local non-profit organizations and schools, etc. so they will all sing the praises of Walmart and ignore the downfall of every mom and pop store in their community.

How can Linux, which embraces the little guy, allow such a place as Walmart to profit off of its existence? It'd be like Microsoft suddenly bundling StarOffice with Windows XP. Sure, StarOffice is getting some exposure, but then people will want Windows and other MS products still as well.

Re:Proof of Concept

[JPriest]

Good, let the two evils try to fight each other off, I might enjoy the show. A long time ago Eric Raymond stated that as PC's begin to drop below the $300 and $400 range that people will become less and less willing to pay the Microsoft tax, and will be when Linux begins to take foothold on the desktop. Wal-Mart could be the turning point of the war.

Re:Proof of Concept

[Anonvmous Coward]

" How can Linux, which embraces the little guy, allow such a place as Walmart to profit off of its existence?"

So who would be appropriate to 'profit off of Linux'? I'm asking in all seriousness. I figured everybody'd be happy that a main stream store was selling pre-installed Linux machines.

I know Walmart's reputation with /. is not that good, but frankly, I wouldn't be that picky.

Re:Proof of Concept

[matticus]

what the heck? like linux is an organization!
oh boy, now we're deciding who is good enough to use linux? get off your high horse. who would even be able to do such a thing as stop Walmart from linux-ing, and why would ANYONE want them to?
what the heck? go back to your cave and keep your tyrannical ways to yourself. We don't want to hear them.

Re:Proof of Concept

[Peyna]

Hmm, I was simply stating that a large corporation like Walmart is like the anti-thesis to Open Source. I'm not deciding who is good enough to use Linux, I'm simply stating that having a place like Walmart promoting your product is not always a good thing if you are devoted to a cause like Open Source Software.

Re:Proof of Concept

[matticus]

but who's promoting what? if you're talking Mandrake being promoted (let's get that straight, Linux is not in charge of anything. Linux is a kernel. Kernels are not cognizant. They cannot decide anything), well, Mandrake is mostly Free software. The key to this Open Source/Free Software movement is not freedom as in beer, as I'm sure you've heard, but freedom as in speech. As in-anyone is allowed to use this software for whatever they want. Read the Debian Social Contract if you don't understand that.
Don't be so anti-establishment that you take away freedom.

Walmart vs. MS

[oyenstikker]

I think Walmart is the company that could best challenge Microsoft Window's monopoly. They are big enough not to cave to Microsoft. They are diverse enough that loosing wouldn't kill them. They have a huge customer base and lots of stores. If Walmart sold you a computer, it would be cheap. They could preinstall any software they sell on the shelves. If you have a problem with it, you can just bring it to a Walmart. You're never that far from one in the US. If selling Lindows and Manrake increases their hardware sales, would they consider writing their own operating system? or maybe just Walmart Linux?

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[estoll]

If they can sell used cars, why not go into the business of selling and supporting PCs too?

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[HisMother]

> or maybe just Walmart Linux?
"Walmart Windows" actually would be more fitting. Both companies (MS & WalMart) want you to believe they are your friend, when they're actually huge evil megaconglomerates that would sell your internal organs for a dime if you fell asleep in the lobby at corporate headquarters.

Many a sci-fi hero has emerged victorious by hiding in a cave while two opposing giant bad robots battled to their mutual death, so WalMart vs Microsoft is a good thing no matter how you slice it.

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[sfe_software]

I think Walmart is the company that could best challenge Microsoft Window's monopoly.

I doubt they are doing it to challenge MS, at least not directly. They are doing it because Walmart does whatever it takes to offer lower prices than everyone else. If Windows costs more than Linux, it only makes sense from their point of view to offer Linux. They don't care about the politics or technical merits of open-source software, etc.

They could preinstall any software they sell on the shelves.

I imagine Microtel could pre-install any software that they strike a licensing deal with. I don't think having the software on their shelf gives Walmart or Microtel any license other than to resell said software on said shelf.

If you have a problem with it, you can just bring it to a Walmart.

I seriously doubt Walmart will be offering much in the way of technical support. Hardware failures sure, you'll have your normal return-policy and warranty period, but if you trash your MBR or can't run Mozilla, I don't think they'll be much help (most likely, Microtel offers some kind of support).

If selling Lindows and Manrake increases their hardware sales, would they consider writing their own operating system? or maybe just Walmart Linux?

That's a major stretch. Again, they aren't interested in the politics, nor do I believe they are interested in becoming a tech company. They simply see that:

- PC hardware is dirt cheap right now
- Lindows/Mandrake is cheap
- As a result, they can offer a PC cheaper than the next guy

I suspect that after so many users return the machines (My AOL don't work on this computer, or Front Page won't run) they might reconsider.

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[FFFish]

Walmart is not doing this out of the goodness of their heart. And they're certainly not doing it so they can sell cheaper computers: there will be far too many disgruntled customers and far too many product returns.

My guess is that they're bargaining for lower MSWindows licensing prices.

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[_xeno_]

Most people have been flaming you for various things regarding Walmart being cheap bastards, so I'll go off on a completely different tangent.

They are diverse enough that loosing wouldn't kill them.

"Loosing"?! "LOOSING"?!

Loosing means the act of letting fly, the act of letting loose, or the act of relaxing. I'm not sure what they're loosing in your sentence, but it doesn't make sense.

Unless you meant "losing" as in L-O-S-I-N-G, which means "the act of failure, or being brought to destruction" - which would make sense in that sentence.

Now I'm sorry if English isn't your native language or anything like that (although with a ".us" domain name, it probably is) but there are so many people here - and on the Internet in general - who spell "LOSING" with a second "O" that it does not have!

Oh, and apparently you're an idiot for thinking that Walmart has a vested interest in improving Linux.

However, I think that you do have a point - if Walmart thinks it'd be cheaper to improve the Linux product to increase their sales, they well might decide to roll their own or make deals with Linux vendors to improve the existing Linux distros. To people who say that Walmart is "just trying to cut costs," remember that bringing costs in-house - growing "horizontally" - has been used in the past by big buisnesses (Rockerfeller, Carnegie...) to help increase profits by removing a middle-man from the process.

Since I don't have a clear financial view of how much it would cost Wal-Mart to help with Linux as opposed to leave well enough alone, I can't say whether or not they will - at this time, I expect that they will not and simply pump cash into the Linux distros they sell through licensing expenses, and maybe request improvements.

Of course, the flip side to the coin is that they may be simply using this as a barganing tactic to get Microsoft to lower costs. In which case it still may be in their best interests to improve Linux, or at least threaten to do so. It's hard to say without knowing the exact costs as well as having market data to help predict the costs and benifits to trying to improve Linux compared to letting the distros evolve naturally. Time will tell...

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[happyclam]

Of course, the real reason Wal-Mart is doing this is because they can.

It's Sam's way of thumbing his nose at Bill.

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[4of12]

If Walmart sold you a computer, it would be cheap.

That's the problem.

If their computers are like their other merchandise, the low price is the singular selling point. I can't tell you how disappointed I've been in how shoddy some of my Walmart purchases have turned out.

The OS could well be one of the most reliable components in these PCs.

This first large scale deployment of Linux to Joe User could damage the public perception of Linux not because Linux isn't Ready for the Desktop, but rather because the associated hardware is too cheap and shoddy.

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[HiThere]

That said, all of this stuff about Walmart doing anything out of the goodness of their heart is pure bunk. They are a company and like ALL companies, they are trying to make a profit.

This is slightly unfair. Many companies do consider their reputation before acting. Many companies do have some social conscience. This is even true of some corporations. Sometimes the prospectus allows the board of directors to consider social consequences of their actions. Usually, however, a corp is legally required to act with maximum greed (it's so much easier to defend against a stockholders suit if you've been acting with maximum greed).

Actually, this is a bit mis-stated. So, for precision:
Companies are not legally required to be greedy. Many of them are controlled by one owner/manager. This person can be an ethical person.
Corporations are required to adhere to their financial prospectus (usually). If the stockholders feel that the corp has acted in a way that didn't maximize their profit, they can sue. There are some who have made a career of this. The easiest way to defend against this is to be able to show that you were, indeed, acting to maximize the profit. This often means short-term profit. There can be other reasons, the manager has to answer to the board of directors, and the board of directors may not know about the details of the corporate activities, but they can understand money. Etc.

Corporate shortsightedness has become proverbial since the Harvard School of Business Management started a campaign to measure the success of management by examining the profits made each quarter. This has caused it to be quite dangerous for corporations to try to plan for long term benefits. So they don't. Guess who looses?

That said, and with all justifications aside, the treating of corporations as if they were people is truely stupid. They aren't. They aren't. They aren't. That court decision should have been laughed out on appeal. It wasn't. And we've been saddled with the stupid results (which have been increasingly bad) since the mid 1800's.

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[HiThere]

It would cost them hardly anything to get re-branding rights. It they decide it's worth it, all they would have to do would be to offer Mandrake a quite small amount to come out with a companion editon where all the mandrake names and logos are replaced by corresponding WalMart ones. You could probably do it with a fancy shell script. Since they wouldn't even really need Mandrake's permission to do this, the price for getting Mandrake to do it for them would be bound to be quite cheap.

Come to that, didn't Mandrake originally have a deal with some publisher where they did just that? Or did they not put the publisher's name into the code on the disks? (I may not have bought that edition.)

Re:Walmart vs. MS

[zCyl]

or maybe just Walmart Linux?

Equate Linux (compare to active ingredients in Mandrake Linux).

Frys Electronics Has a $299 PC

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a 1.1 Gig Celeron and it comes with ThizLinux. Its been on the front page of their ad for a few weeks now.

I'm probably gonna suggest my computerless newbie friend pick one up.

I just wish it was Mandrake ore Redhat with OpenOffice and a cvs of Winex pre-installed.

Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[FortKnox]

I wonder if any Wal-Mart manager is brave enough to actually set up a few machines in-store.

Why is the bravery required? Are you suggesting its hard to install Linux? Are you suggesting its hard to use Linux?

If a manager can't setup demos, then the whole idea of selling Linux in the stores is flawed and will ultimately fail.

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[idfrsr]

"Why is the bravery required? Are you suggesting its hard to install Linux? Are you suggesting its hard to use Linux?

Its neither hard to use Linux or install it. What's hard is teaching Walmart Managers to do it.

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[chill]

I'll suggest that WalMart has a wall full of PC software that isn't going to run on the box, and that will confuse the average Walmart customer/associate.

Walmart usually carries ONE Linux title -- Linux (Mandrake or RedHat), no applications. Same basic problem with CompUSA.

YES, Wine will handle much of the software, and the GAMING version of Mandrake might soften things, but they are still going to have problems.

More power to them. I hope they can make it work, and start carrying Linux software.

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[Mattygfunk]

He's not suggesting that the OS is hard to install. I think he's not confident that linux (proabably KDE) can stand up to a quick play by the consumer, especially with staff that are not pros to guide them and answer they're questions properly.

This is not a troll, but judging by his statement I think Timothy isn't that confident that a demonstrated PC and being honest with the consumer will help push linux.

Mod me down if you think that this didn't add to the conversation but it's my honest opinion.

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[jaoswald]

Look, if a Wal-mart manager could feel comfortable installing Mandrake and keeping a useful demo environment available on the computer, preserving it against "attacks" by pre-teen customers and other clueless passers-by, they wouldn't have to take a job as a Walmart manager. Instead, they'd have some tech job which gave them the job security that let them spend time posting on Slashdot.

A Walmart manager has too many things to worry about already, like managing a workforce of perhaps a hundred or so minimum-wage workers, and keeping a store in stock of thousands of items, while dealing with any number of screw-ups, emergencies, and irate customers.

Apropos Apple in CompUSA, back a few years, I knew a guy who was paid by a marketing agency part-time to go maintain the Apple kiosks at Sears and Circuit City. He was not being paid what he was truly worth in terms of ability---most of his compensation was the feeling that he was participating in the Apple jihad. He was lucky to get any support at all from the commission-driven drones, who would be just as happy selling DVD players or dishwashers. Now the guy works at an Apple store part-time, as Apple has decided to focus on their own retail chain.

Unless some Linux vendor manages to fund some kind of underpaid mujahedeen squad that would go store-to-store to do periodic fixups and staff training, retail Linux kiosks are not going to work. Maybe RedHat needs to go retail?

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[Reziac]

Bravery might be required because upper management has probably forbidden local managers from setting up in-store demo machines, and it'd probably cost the local bloke his job if he were caught doing so.

[Ferengi] After all a demo is a machine that is not being sold and therefore is not making profit. [/Ferengi]

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[Darby]

However, I think we all realize the danger of a poorly implemented demo of Linux-powered PCs.

Actually, this could be as much fun as when they sold Commodore 64s at Kmart. Since the machines will prolly have a compiler installed, how long before someone types in compiles and runs:

int main()
{
int i;
for (;;)
{
printf("Walmart sucks\n");
}
}

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[jmv]

Walmart usually carries ONE Linux title -- Linux (Mandrake or RedHat), no applications

Yes and no. Though there's only one box, there's tons of software in it. If you buy Windows, all you get is Windows (well according to MS definition of an OS). When you buy Mandrake Linux, you get many word processors (abiword, ooffice, kword, ...), spreadsheets, 10 browsers, scientific software, ... Most useful and widespread open-sources software gets included in the distro, so there's no need to sell it separately.

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[rseuhs]

Don't allow cdrom/floppy access for "demo". Problem solved.

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[Patrick13]

reminds me of sears selling computers with basic OS in the mid-80's....
_____

10 PRINT SEARS SUCKS
20 GOTO 10

RUN
______

must be a 14-year-old thing....

It was always good for a laugh to hear them use the intercom to call the (apparently) only person working there who knew how to press ctrl and Del at the same time to stop the program.

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[Patrick13]

well maybe I don't remember basic anymore, but i think that would print out "SEARS SUCKS" over and over again. i don't remember anymore, but perhaps someone with a CS degree could go over the code.... ;)

Re:Indirectly claiming a flaw in Linux, tim?

[HiThere]

Joe Bob isn't going to be installing software. At least, not any that doesn't come on a CD, and given the Installers I seen, not then either.

But for around $700 you get a computer with a monitor, a printer, a stack of CD-R disks, a surge protecter, a complete Office software package (I really don't think Open Office is quite ready. Is Star Office any better?), several games (well, simple games, I admit), etc.

Not a bad deal. Once you add all the accessories the price turns out to be a bit higher than the ad, but that's usual.

But this isn't really a good deal for Joe Bob. It's an OK deal if he's strapped for cash. It's a good deal for his kid, who's into computers. And it's cheap enough that Joe Bob might get it. Actually, if he's feeling tight he could even cut down on some of the options, and save a bit more, at least in the short run. It's now comparable to the typewriter that I got when I was in high school. Actually, allowing for inflation, it's cheaper.

Odd

[prof187]

I find it odd that Wal-Mart is the one who is starting to sell the Linux based OSs. It's great that they are, but I figured it would be someone like Radio Shack, someone more based on technology.

It's probably Microsoft paying them to do it so they can say that they do have competition. =)

Re:Odd

[SimplyCosmic]

Radio Shack based on technology?

My god, man, we're talking about the people behind Tandy computers!

Why would you want them screwing around with Linux?

Re:Odd

[randomErr]

Radio Shack has an exclusive contract with Digital, I mean Compaq, I mean HPAQ. Oh heck I'm not sure who it is anymore.

Re:Odd

[sporty]

Hey, my first XT was a 1000RL, you dont' be dissin' tandy. It had a CPU that was like 12 Mhz or something.

Re:Odd

[Peyna]

Wal-Mart is about low-prices and high profit.

I remember when Wal-Mart was about (quality?) US-made products. Then Sam Walton died.

Re:Odd

[SimplyCosmic]

I had a Tandy 1000. That's more than enough reason for me to be wary of them. ;)

Good Machines for Beginners

[ShwAsasin]

I think it's great to see machines running Mandrake. They will be great for yonger children learning to use PC's, and a cheap alternative for writing school assignments, listening to music (mp3's/cd-audio), and web browsing.

walmart shipping...from their website

[Hadlock]

everytime this comes up, be it lindows on wal*mart pc's, red hat or mandrake, or just plain old no OS, someone forgets to mention that this is an option for PC's bought off of walmart's website, not somthing you can drive down to and pick up from your local walmart. have you ever seen a PC for sale in a retail walmart store? i sure haven't.

as a result, people still have to buy a windows/mac PC (or at least borrow someone's internet access) and get online to order, let alone discover, that walmart sells PCs sans OS, or with linux on them. kinda defeats the purpose, hunh?

Re:walmart shipping...from their website

[prof187]

have you ever seen a PC for sale in a retail walmart store? i sure haven't.

Actually, at the Wal-Mart where I live, they do sell some Computers. HPs if I remember correctly. Not sure of the OS (or lack-thereof), but I'd guess Windows.

as a result, people still have to buy a windows/mac PC ... and get online to order,hunh?

Now they can double their profit, sell you a computer so you can buy a computer.

Re:walmart shipping...from their website

[Christianfreak]

They do sell some PCs in store, at least where I live. Usually they are HPs. I haven't really looked lately to see if they had any of the linux stuff in store or not though. Probably not, they probably want to see if they can make money off the geeks first before trying it with the general public.

Re:walmart shipping...from their website

[gad_zuki!]

as a result, people still have to buy a windows/mac PC (or at least borrow someone's internet access) and get online to order, let alone discover, that walmart sells PCs sans OS, or with linux on them. kinda defeats the purpose, hunh?

Not at all. Its up to Walmart and Mandrake to promote these things. There's no real need to put them on a pedastel in the store or make a chessy late night infomercial (though that would be entertaining to say the least). "How much would you pay for all this computer goodness? 100? 200?" "How about FREE!" "Call within the next hour and get a free copy of Apache, the world's most popular web server!'"

Linux buyers will be informed buyers. Perhaps someone is going to buy one for the technophobe in their lives who just wants web and email and wants to spend as little as possible. Businesses can save time and money by buying linux desktop machines which have standardized pre-installed software and hardware. Maybe someone would want to partition the drive and install their old copy of Win98 as a dual boot. They bought the old OS didn't they? No need to throw it out along with the computer, regardless of what MS tells you to do.

Re:walmart shipping...from their website

[Hadlock]

"
nice troll btw..."

thanksi originally wasn't intending to troll, just get some responses out of people (positive trolling?). i really have never seen a PC display @ walmart, though. i think the trick to trolling is post early, post a widely known fact, and then support it with questionable evidence easily disputable. *bite*

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[oyenstikker]

Easy. They sell him Windows for another 200USD.

PC's displayed

[Mattygfunk]

It's good to see that Walmart is promoting the Mandrake boxen ahead of the Lindows ones, with Windows last on their desktop PC's page.

Even though they are clearly in Linux for a buck, that is the ideal situation for retailers. IBM, Sun and the rest, should and do support us technically, Walmart and hopefully soon others by portraying linux as a viable option at the POS.

Re:Can buy one online

[justanyone]

Yes, apparently you can at Walmart.com and get:

• Microtel SYSMAR801 PC With 900 MHz Duron 391.00 (128, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR802 PC With 1.3 GHz Duron $428.00 (128, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR803 PC With 1.3 GHz Celeron $438.00 (128, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR804 PC With 1.3 GHz Duron and CD-RW $498.00 (256, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR805 PC With 1.3 GHz Celeron and CD-RW $498.00 (256, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR806 PC With 1.7 GHz Pentium 4 $528.00 (128, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR807 PC With 1.7 GHz Pentium 4 and CD-RW $588.00 (256, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR808 PC With 2.0 GHz Pentium 4$598.00 (256, 40gb)
• Microtel SYSMAR809 PC With 2.0 GHz Pentium 4 and CD-RW $648.00 (256, 40gb)

  • The caption text for the cheap one is: $391.00, Availability: Usually takes 1 to 7 business days to process before shipping, 128 MB memory, 40 GB hard drive, CD-ROM drive, Ethernet connection, 56 Kbps modem, Mandrake 8.2 Linux OS, Monitor not included

    Mainly the difference seems to be the processor speed and the memory included, all have 40 gb drives and no monitor.

Re:Wal*Mart welcome to the decline of western civ

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

Workers of the world unite ... and work for my company!

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[nemesisj]

Here's where someone needs to come along and verbally abuse you for abusing someone else. A template:

Why do you insist on looking down on [insert people group] when you're just as bad because of [insert something their people group is known for]. Your [bad adjective] attitude is responsible for [insert any open source project or multiple projects for bonus]'s failure. Screw off.

Re:Can buy one online

[lovebyte]

Following your link I found this at the bottom of the page describing one of the computers:

Components Country of Origin: USA and/or Imported

I love the extreme precision of this statement

Radio Shack is technophopic

[mjhans]

Believe me, as somebody as part of a (former) web company whose potential client base fell into Radio Shack's domain, Radio Shack is extrememly technophobic. We found them to be one of the least receptive clients of all, and they flat-out admitted to being scared of the web.

Sounds ironic, but it isn't as much as you'd think. All their electronic parts are just plain-Jane caps and resistors, your basic 7400 logic gate IC's, etc. They built their entire consumer electronics market by just rebranding pre-existing Japanese components (back in the 60s and 70s when being Japanese was Bad instead of Good).

When it comes to leading revolutions, Radio Shack is actually a bit behind the curve.....

Re:Radio Shack is technophopic

[ShavenYak]

On the positive side, I was able to find a transistor that needed replacing on my Gorf machine's amplifier board at Radio Hack. So, keep it in mind as the place to go for 20+ year old technology.

Re:Can buy one online

[iapetus]

Yes, apparently you can at Walmart.com

...provided you've already got a PC to go online with, of course. ;)

pricing

[jest3r]

Other than some extra RAM and a CDRW the pricing is pretty much the same between the Mandrake comps and the M$ Windows comps .. and the Mandrake one is loaded with loads of pre-installed bloatware software .. I would have expected a big difference in price / not a small difference in components ..

Microsoft Windows XP Home
AMD 1.3 GHz Duron processor
128 MB memory
40 GB hard drive
$499.00

Mandrake Linux OS v8.2
AMD 1.3 GHz Duron processor
256 MB memory
40 GB hard drive
$498.00

Re:pricing

[joestar]

It's not comparable. If you want to compare, add Microsoft Office (StarOffice 6.0), IIS (Apache), SQL server (MySQL, PostgreSQL...), Photoshop (Gimp), Money (GnuCash)... etc.

What the price now? :-)

Re:pricing

[ivan256]

but you cant open .GIF with the Gimp

/Me pokes around in his home directory...

~>gimp RS232.gif

(Window pops up)

Works fine here. You just can't save as a gif without extra software (That you are only supposed to use where the patent isn't enforcable).

Re:pricing

[bromoseltzer]

The big payoff is at the low end. Minimum Linux system $391 (900 MHz Duron, minimum Windows $498 (1.3GHz Celeron). That goes along with predictions that Windows is priced out of the market at the low end. However, for a lot of users I know, that $100 will translate into pain, if they try to save it.

On the other hand, people may find alternative, "inexpensive" ways to load some kind of Windows.

-MSE

Re:pricing

[sehryan]

Eh, why are you comparing SQLserver to mySQL and Postgre? mySQL and Postgre are on the level of Access. Last time I checked, I didn't notice a lot of large corportations running mySQL to hold their critical info.

Actually, thats besides the point. What does Joe Shmoe need with Apache and mySQL to begin with?

Re:pricing

[smallpaul]

Hardly anyone will care about all of that stuff. The point of buying a Linux-preload (for most people) is to save money on the OS. If you don't save much money, people will just go with the more familiar Linux box and pirate or download the software they need. For example, there are free office suites you can download and that other stuff is hardly relevant on an average end-users desktop box.

Re:pricing

[pjrc]

You just can't save as a gif without extra software (That you are only supposed to use where the patent isn't enforcable).

FWIW, the gimp that came with redhat 7.2 saves GIF just fine. Perhaps they're voilating the patent, but I believe the Unisys LZW patent runs out sometime next year (2003) anyway.

Re:pricing

[tshak]

If you want to compare, add Microsoft Office (StarOffice 6.0), IIS (Apache), SQL server (MySQL, PostgreSQL...), Photoshop (Gimp), Money (GnuCash)... etc.

Because we are comparing OS's.

Office OEM $179 versus $70 for StarOffice.

IIS and Apache are irrelevant for the average user. Plus, you can use Apache on Windows, and Windows XP home has IIS Personal Edition on it.

SqlServer is a RDBMS. Compare it with Oracle or DB2 but not MySql or PostgreSQL. Plus, the comparison is pretty silly considering that not all geeks need an RDBMS let alone joe blow.

Photoshop and the Gimp are not comparable - let's not beat this dead horse again please. Older versions of PS are found for very cheap on ebay if money is an issue.

MS Money freaks me out since it logs you into MS's servers when you use it. So, I'll give that one to you.

Re:pricing

[Rogerborg]

• If you want to compare, add Microsoft Office (StarOffice 6.0), IIS (Apache), SQL server (MySQL, PostgreSQL...), Photoshop (Gimp), Money (GnuCash)

• StarOffice 6.0 for Win32
• Apache for Win32
• MySQL for Win32
• GIMP for Win32

But heck, there isn't a GnuCash Win32 port, so I guess that makes you right. ;-P

I do have a serious point here. It's absolutely brillant that these apps are available for Win32 and other platforms, because that's pretty much the only way that market forces can actually effect Microsoft. If, for example, they start to see their highly lucrative Office sales slip in favour of Star/OpenOffice, then they might (unlikely, but possible) actually have to start doing something about stopping people from then migrating to Linux - hey, if you can run the same apps, but pay much less for the OS, then why not?

As I say, it's unlikely. I actually think that they'll just try and tighten their grip (through Palladium, tighter integration and buying legislation) rather than loosen it, but we can live in hope, right?

Re:pricing

[ShavenYak]

I actually think that they'll just try and tighten their grip....

The more they tighten their grip, the more users will slip through their fingers.

Ahh, if only there were dialog that good in the new Star Wars movies.

Re:pricing

[spitzak]

I don't think you can count that, really. Otherwise you would have to agree to the old claim that the Windows machine contains "Thousands of dollars of software free" when they count all the bad games and encyclopaedias and programs that force you to sign up for AOL. To the person who does not plan to paint images, the added value of Gimp is zero, and since you cannot save money by not getting Gimp, you cannot make any such claim.

I found it a bit confusing on their page comparing prices as they managed to make the Linux/Lindows/Windows machines all different hardware so you cannot find an exact match to see what the prices are. Also how much RAM is in these machines?

Re:pricing

[Rogerborg]

• • I actually think that they'll just try and tighten their grip rather than loosen it
  Are you sure that's the correct spelling? I've been reading Slashdot for some time now and I would have to disagree with you.

You are a bad, bad man (or lady). What would it be in Slashtalk? Losen? Lossen? Loozen? ;-)

Re:pricing

[Rogerborg]

• Yes, but have you ever seen a Windows PC preloaded with that software?

Not as such. I bought a Win98SE laptop with (IIRC) Lotus Workwise (crappy Office suite) on it, then took it straight off (and I'm still waiting for my refund for the Win98SE I was forced to buy). If it had been OpenOffice 1.0, I would have kept it and loved it (I'm using it right not in preference to Microsoft Office on a work PC). If I was Joe Consumer, I might not even have realised that OpenOffice is different to Word. If you haven't tried it, I can heartily recommend it.

• It might not be feasible, license-wise -- I don't understand the GPL well enough to know for sure, though...

There is absolutely nothing, zero, zip, zilch, nada in the GPL that would prevent it. All of these products are free speech and free beer (if you use OpenOffice instead of StarOffice). The GPL adds rights, it doesn't take them away.

However, there may be, or may come to be, terms in the WinXP OEM license that prevent it. Pure speculation, but then if you actually read the EULA modifications that they're so fond of writing into critical security updates, nothing's unthinkable any more. Microsoft have declared war on the GPL, they just haven't come up with a decent strategy yet.

Pro and Con

[Bonker]

Reasons for setting up a Linux Demo PC at Walmart

1. Fear Reduction. If customers can *see* it working, and see a few neat demos (one of the few linux games, Open Office, etc...) then they will be much more likely to buy it.

2. Employee Knowledge. The majority of Walmart employees are not really encouraged to be knowledgeable about their products or their store. If electronics department managers took the dive and installed a Linux PC for their departments, employees who worked there could play with it and learn about it. They'd be in a lot better position to deal with it.

3. Zealots. Go to any Bestbuy or Circuit city that happens to have a Mac section, and you'll find one or two Mac Zealots there to 'encourage' people toward buying a Mac. If you put Linux PC's in stores, you'll probably get Linux Zealots there too to show people how wonderful Linux can be.

Reasons AGAINST setting up a Linux Demo PC at Walmart

1. su -; password; rm -rf *.*

2. When Linux breaks, (or is broken) you've got to be knowledgable to fix it. If you installed it, you've got no problem, but can you really count on someone who works at Walmart to know how to edit files? In my experience, non techies who sell computers would rather *not* fix a broken software demo by reinstalling. If they can't make it 'right' again with a few mouse clicks, they'll turn it off.

3. 133t k1dd135

4. Customer: "So, which of this software can I run on this Linux PC?"

Walmart CSM: "Uhmm... None of it, I think. I dunno. Are these things compatible with normal PC's?"

Walmart carries a few boxed Linux distros. I've seen Mandrake and Redhat shrinkwraps before, but that is the long and short of their in-store linux support. Joe Sixpack doesn't want to download Open Office. He wants to buy it off the shelf and have it work without thinking. Unless Walmart starts carrying some of the shrinkwrap Linux software packages, and maybe some 'collection' CD's, they're shooting themselves in the foot by displaying a Linux PC next to reams of Windows-only software.

Re:Pro and Con

[Damek]

Unless Walmart starts carrying some of the shrinkwrap Linux software packages, and maybe some 'collection' CD's, they're shooting themselves in the foot by displaying a Linux PC next to reams of Windows-only software.

Well, they're not displaying a Linux PC next to reams of Windows-only software. These Linux-loaded PCs are only available via Walmart.com. You have to be looking for it, or have a friend point it out to you, in order to find it in the first place.

I think you're basically right - Walmart suddenly offering some PCs loaded with Linux is not going to immediately push Linux into the mainstream, like some people seem to think. Furthermore, if Walmart were to present these PCs in their stores as "just like Windows PCs, only cheaper!", they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. But they're not, and I don't think they mean to push Linux into the mainstream.

I think, really, this is like Linux getting it's tonail (not the full toe, and definitely not the full foot) in the door of "pre-installed OS" computers.

I mean, these things have to go in baby steps. In another two years, it's quite possible that Linux could be so much farther on that all the reasons against having these things in stores might be solved. I, for one, hope so. Some elitist geeks might shudder at their niche OS being tainted by "the masses", but I personally see the good outweighing the bad if free software were to end up being used everywhere.

Re:Pro and Con

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Reasons AGAINST setting up a Linux Demo PC at Walmart 1. su -; password; rm -rf *.*

<ob_smartass>So someone might remove all files with a dot in the filename?</ob_smartass>

2. When Linux breaks, (or is broken) you've got to be knowledgable to fix it. If you installed it, you've got no problem, but can you really count on someone who works at Walmart to know how to edit files? In my experience, non techies who sell computers would rather *not* fix a broken software demo by reinstalling. If they can't make it 'right' again with a few mouse clicks, they'll turn it off.

No problem. That's what "Flash this box back to factory configuration" CDs are for. The store demo doesn't need any custom config work, it's a demo of what you get right out of the box.

3. 133t k1dd135

See above. If they wind up having to re-flash the box more than one or two times a week, then they'll pull it down (or flash it to the WinXP version)
I'm curious though, what makes you think that a Linux box would be MORE prone to this than a Win box? Last I checked, unpriviledged users could still edit the display settings for a windows box and set a refresh rate that the monitor can't handle, or drop it to 640x480x16 colors (which to a WalMart associate is "crashing the machine") You can also remove DLLs from the Windows folder, no?

By the way, you mention the Zealot Attractor factor as a Pro -- I'd call it a Con. The average WalMart associate is going to be more likely to think the geeky guy hanging out in the electronics section is looking to swipe something than be grateful for his help selling PCs.

Re:Pro and Con

[zsmooth]

Yes, you can remove dll's from the Windows directory, but all the critical ones it keeps backed up in another directory from which it just replaces the one you stole. It's either very cool or very stupid, depending on whether you're a linux bigot or not.

Re:Pro and Con

[madmancarman]

Joe Sixpack doesn't want to download Open Office. He wants to buy it off the shelf and have it work without thinking.

Maybe I'm being a smartass, but isn't this what most computer users want? I mean, I would personally rather pay a small fee for software that will "work without thinking" rather than having to twiddle with make and gcc and whatnot. I guess I'm just lazy (or else I have an intrinsic desire to financially support good software developers), but I don't think it's fair to mock regular people who just want a computer that works.

How many times have you heard Mac users say, "I use a Mac because it lets me get my work done and I don't have to mess around with the system"? Why can't we expect this from Linux as well?

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

Re:Pro and Con

[Rogerborg]

• 1. su -; password; rm -rf *.*

Lindows installs by root as default, so the su is redundant (as is the ".*", what's with that?). However, that applies equally to XP, so what's the loss?

• Customer: "So, which of this software can I run on this Linux PC?"

Answer: you don't have to buy any of it, it comes with equivelants as standard. And yes, that means that you don't have to pay $394.99 for the Standard edition of Office XP. (That's an Amazon link. Interestingly, WalMart only - apparently - plans on selling OfficeXP to students and teachers. Uh, sure, OK).

Great selling point for users, but, yes, lousy business sense for WalMart. Most computer retaillers effectively give the boxes away, then gouge on the extras and consumables.

Re:Pro and Con

[Chanc_Gorkon]

By the way, you mention the Zealot Attractor factor as a Pro -- I'd call it a Con. The average WalMart associate is going to be more likely to think the geeky guy hanging out in the electronics section is looking to swipe something than be grateful for his help selling PCs.

Which brings up my number one pet peeve about walking into any store that carries computer anything or even Radio Shack now (unfortunately). When I go to these places, I know EXACTLY what I am looking for and I go in, go to where it is (by reading the freaking signs), I get it, I pay, I walk out. How come the freaking clueless blueshirts insist on talking to me or asking if I need help? Go back to your l33t talk with your buds about Quake and let me get my stuff and get out of here. Did I ask for your help? Did I ask your opinion on which video card I should get (usually cuz they thing I should spend lots of bucks on the piece o shit card of the week instead of the Nvidia card I have in my hand). When I do ask you something, if you don't know, then don't try and tell me you think it will work. Tell me you don't know. I'll say thank you and leave you alone. Don't try to sell me something I don't want! I remember walking up to someone who was so confused right after a salesman walked away to check on something...I ask that person what did they want to do. They tell me I only want to do internet and chat and maybe type up my resume and they are selling me this $$$$ machine...do you think it's ok? Usually, they point out a machine fine for, well, geeks like us, or a machine that's underpowered even for today's stuff. I point them to the correct machine (one which will do what they want, not one with all kind of toys like we'd like, and will not cost them an arm and a leg). They buy it. They go home. They are happy. They also won't buy without me or another computer friend again. These guys working at CompUSA and Best Buy almost all worked at a Grocery store last week. They are the rice boy equivalent to geeks. They think that PC over there is nice cuz of the case! Well, they don't know jack and I wish they'd just leave me alone when I go to make my purchases, or at least HELP ME GET my purchases instead of chatting with yer buds that work there. Honestly the Quake/SOF/PS/2 talk can wait 5 minutes while you grab a hard disk for me.

Re:Pro and Con

[asv108]

3. Zealots. Go to any Bestbuy or Circuit city that happens to have a Mac section, and you'll find one or two Mac Zealots there to 'encourage' people toward buying a Mac. If you put Linux PC's in stores, you'll probably get Linux Zealots there too to show people how wonderful Linux can be.

Yeah too bad when potential customers see the zealots, they will call security.

Re:Pro and Con

[ShavenYak]

I don't think I've ever seen a demo computer with a password set to 'password'. Believe me, I've tried that. As well as the store name, slogan, and other obvious phrases. Of course, since all the demo computers run Windows, all you have to do is reboot to get out of the screensaver. I guess now that everyone's moving to XP that trick won't work anymore.

Re:Pro and Con

[ShavenYak]

Most computer retaillers effectively give the boxes away, then gouge on the extras and consumables.

Before anyone disputes this, I remember a while back a friend of mine went to work for CompUSA for a while. He got an employee discount on everything - I think it was like cost + 5% or something. On a pre-built PC, his 'discount' price would ususally be above the sticker price. He could get components pretty cheap though.

This has been several years though, so it might be a bit different now that PC's are getting so dirt cheap.

What about the software?

[taeric]

I know that for most people here, finding software for linux is no problem. However, I can't help but feel that not having a "linux" section in the software is going to hurt the sales of these machines. Especially when the customers are going to find out that the vast majority of the software you can buy will probably not work with these machines.

How long until we have a good sized shelf to sit next to these machines with software that can be loaded on them without trouble?

-josh

Re:What about the software?

[taeric]

That is the standard response, so I was expecting it. However, I don't really feel that you have to have the software for sale, per se.

Instead, we should look to include a nice set of manuals, books, etc that come packaged with a copy of the latest version of a program. A perfect example could be StarOffice. They could buy a copy of the book, which would *hopefully* have a very good rundown on how to get the software up and running and how to use it from there.

This would allow a nice shelf of software for people to purchase. Note, I don't really think it is about the software; rather, I believe it is all in the appearance of software. Most of us know there are plenty of applications available for linux. The average user at Walmart, however...

Ask Wal-Mart

[Anonymous Coward]

Why doesn't Slashdot do an "Ask Slashdot" with the person responsible for all this Linux in wal-Mart? Or, at least an interview.

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[labratuk]

For one, these aren't aimed at the 'Redneck' as you put it. They are only available online, so to have made the purchase, you would have to know a thing or two about computers. (well, debatable, but at least know how to basically operate one)

They are also not marked ambiguously as 'Cheap Computers'. They are under a clearly labelled 'Computers with Mandrake Linux' section. Right next to a 'Computers with Windows' section. IIRC from the site, you don't even discover that these machines are cheaper until you go into the mandrake section. So they are probably not going to be easily confused.

Now, if these were offered in store like the editor suggests (with big 'CHEAP' labels on them), you might have troubles when 'Redneck X' comes back into a computer store with it saying 'I want to upgrade the hard drive, y'all!'. (Can you imagine the faces on the so called 'techs' when they boot it up?)

Less returns if they have support

[mekkab]

If walmart can provide support or go if each store goes in league with some LUGs that have a hankering to do some missionary work this could go over well.

That way they sell you a system on the double cheap, for glaring problems they have some linux guy come in a few days a week, OR they say "here, get in touch with these guys."

Think about it, someone could get paid to help a noob with lilo.conf,installing devices,and anything in /etc!

Of course, most linux hackers are socially inept geeks* who haven't the foggiest about customer service. Hey, wait, that describes about 90% of the people who currently fill customer service positions! These geeks are naturals!!

*(yeah yeah yeah, erroneous broad sweeping generalization. I'm not trolling, I'm being funny. Ha. There. Look, I had 2 hours of sleep last night (unit test and fix test deadline RIGHT NOW)...)

Re:Less returns if they have support

[mekkab]

Yr right, yr right, yr right. Sorry, the product of a sleep deprived brain.

The best thing we could hope for is for a LUG to periodically slip a bunch of their business cards around the linux box area, and maybe get a little chummy with the store clerks ("Hey, you can keep more sales and not have to provide any support if you just slip your customers one of these business cards!")

Walmart Employees

[TibbonZero]

I am glad to see that you can buy more than Windows at Walmart now, so you have some choice. But seriously, the Walmart employees are pretty stupid. Even something as simple as a PS/2 elluded two employees at a local store.

The PS/2 was either turned off, or just crashed (rarely they do...), and I wanted it turned on or reset (can't remember). I asked an employee to do so (just for kicks to see their stupidity)- and they said that they didn't know how. In addition to that, they wondered if the tape was in it- and then commented that they might need to call the sales rep at the manufaturer to come out and reset it.

A few minutes later, they actually carded me when I bought "The Sum of all Fears" game (which doesn't touch Ghost Recon)- I normally don't buy games there, but it was cheap, and I was there. Money==Time.

Point is, that few will buy these machines (unless they just need an emergency Linux box at 2am). This is because the employees are so stupid that they won't know a single thing about the machines or the software. The linux machines won't even be an option that they will show people, or know about themselves. They lack proper training at all.

What they really need is a 30 minute course on how to sell linux (which isn't that hard to teach to someone), as long as they take the 36 month course on how to speak english first...

Hey, I am not against other languages or nationalities, but even Linus has always commented in English (and rather well at it).

Another Netscape 6.0?

[thales]

Netscape jumpped the gun when they released Netscape 6.0. At the time Mozilla/Netscape was usable but still had a lot of rough edges that didn't make it suitable for the general public.

Lately we have seen a few articles pointing out some of areas where the Linux desktop is lacking that might not seem like a big deal to a Geek, but will be viewed as a major short comming by by the general public.

Netscape got a lot of bad press because of 6.0. I Hope we aren't going to see a repeat of that with the Linux desktop on Wal-mart PCs.

been approached by a stanger outside Walmart?

[H3XA]

I can see it now..... a guy wearing a large jacket ouside Wal-Mart comes up to you and says "Psst.... wanna buy a prirate CD vesion of XP for that cheap box you just bought?"

I sometimes wonder if these Wal-Mart PCs encourage piracy of MS OSes...... not that I really care if it does :)

I would assume the average customer who buys these PCs don't give a damn about what cheap OS is on the system (be it Lindows or Mandrake).... they probably just wipe the hard drive and stick XP on it from a CD they borrowed from a mate. Mandrake is still not ready for the n00b public, which is kidn of good, so Wal-Mart don't realistically expect that these PCs will be useful. As someone already posted, a retail version of XP worth a couple of hundred dollars would be an easy add on sales with a decent profit margin.

- HeXa

Re:been approached by a stanger outside Walmart?

[Lxy]

It bugs me that the cheapest PC they have is $299 that comes with Lindows. Why isn't the same box loaded with Mandrake for $299? The modem might be a soft modem, but spend another $20 and put a good modem in it. Geez.

There is a cool side to this though. Take my neighbor for instance. She's got a PII 450 with Win95 on it. She wants a faster Windoze box so she can put linux on her 450. So she goes to Walmart.com, buys the $299 PC, TRANSFERS her 95 license to the new box, and there you go. Microsoft of course says you can't do that with the newer versions of Windoze, but AFAIK this is still legal with Win9x.

Not in my area

[truesaer]

I bought an OS free system not too long ago and found that they don't really carry PCs in store. They typically have 2-3 boxed PCs available on a shelf that most employees can't really find. This was in the 3 stores I checked in my area, but it could be widespread....

Re:Returns

[techstar25]

The following is the obligatory flame:
That's wal-mart.com, not Wal-Mart, the store.

Brave?

[macdaddy]

I don't think brave is the right word. Dumb or ignorant might be a better choice. ;-)

When I was much younger a bunch of my friends and myself would sneak into our Wal-Mart electronics area and install Doom on all the machines. They were networked at the time. When no one was looking, we'd have a fragfest. Lots of fun. I think we actually sold more Wal-Mart machines then they actual paid employees did!

Linux (and DOOM) at Circuit City

[weefle]

When I worked at Circuit City in '93, a buddy and I used to take the AST on one of the display endcaps and boot it off the Slackware boot- and root-disks, just to scare customers. I think we even installed Linux partitions on a few of the machines there (until we reparitioned a Compaq that kept its BIOS management software in a hidden partition-- oops!). We never had a single customer that wasn't completely flummoxed by the non-Windows OS. I'm not sure it would be any different at Wal-Mart in 2002.

Boy, those were the days-- unauthorized Linux installs, playing DOOM over a null modem cable on working hours. Sometimes, I think I miss retail.

Ummm...errmmm...why is the Mandrake box cheaper?

[allism]

OK, so Walmart sells boxes without any OS installed...here we have a system with no OS, almost identical to this Mandrake system, except that the no OS system uses SDRAM instead of DDRAM...but the Mandrake box is a dollar cheaper...what am I missing here?

Is anyone seeing the price difference The Register mentioned in their article saying that the Mandrake boxes were a little more expensive than the no-OS boxes? If this is the case, is the money going back to Mandrake or is the money going to Wal-mart for going to the time and trouble of installing an operating system?

Linux isn't ready for the Store Shelves

[rute_1]

OK, so an Unknowning customer buys this Linux machine and takes it home.

Problem 1. Connect to the Internet. The customer calls his local internet provider, Cable, DSL, or dial-up and says he want's to setup his system to connect to the net. The Internet provider sends him the software. Hmmm, where's the Linux install. Call back the provider. The provider asks what Operating system he's running. Customer repsonds "Linux". Click!

Problem 2. Swapping files. The customer's best friend just downloaded this cool program and wants him to try it. Hmmm, just stick the disk in and and run setup?

Problem 3. U.S. Federal Income Tax Software, Quicken for Linux, MS Office for Linux, Wheel of Fortune for Linux? While there are alternatives, they aren't mainstream.

Problem 4. Computer crashes. No problem take it to the local computer repair center. Ooops, they don't support Linux.

Problem 5. Ohhh, there's a new cool USB 2.0 gadget out for the computer at my local store. I'll buy it and connect it to my system. Hmmm, Linux doesn't recognize the new hardware and there's no Linux install software included with the gadget.

The point is, that Linux, at this time, is only for people that want to download it/buy it, install it, and spend alot of time learning Linux. It's not for people that just want to use it as part of their computer and don't really care what's running in the background as long as they can e-mail, surf, do finances, play games, etc. We Linux zealots often forget that the majority of the population could care less if they're running Wndoze, Linux, or Mac, as long as they can do what they need to do with their computer.

Re:Linux isn't ready for the Store Shelves

[Capt_Troy]

I think it is ready for the shelves, as long as the consumer knows he/she is not buying a Windows box. There will also have to be consideration given by Walmart to putting Linux software on the shelves as well, perhaps even a software kiosk where you get CD's burned with the selected OS software for the price of the CD... People will feel a lot better about uying a computer knowing they can go to Walmart and get their software.

Re:Linux isn't ready for the Store Shelves

[buchanmilne]

OK, so an Unknowning customer buys this Linux machine and takes it home.

Don't know how they would unknowingly buy it, since they have to but it from Walmart.com, and the description tells you it's linux.

Problem 1. Connect to the Internet. The customer calls his local internet provider, Cable, DSL, or dial-up and says he want's to setup his system to connect to the net. The Internet provider sends him the software. Hmmm, where's the Linux install. Call back the provider. The provider asks what Operating system he's running. Customer repsonds "Linux". Click!

User gets sent hardware, connects it, boots machine, during boot, the hardware is detected, and the user is prompted for settings, adds them, and continues booting. When he logs in, the connection works. Better than windows (no reboot necessary).

Problem 2. Swapping files. The customer's best friend just downloaded this cool program and wants him to try it. Hmmm, just stick the disk in and and run setup?

But the user would already have 3 programs under linux that do the same, but in different ways, and easier to install.

Problem 3. U.S. Federal Income Tax Software, Quicken for Linux, MS Office for Linux, Wheel of Fortune for Linux? While there are alternatives, they aren't mainstream.

Buy Crossover Office or Win4lin from the mandrakestore.com, if they aren't happy with OpenOffice.org 1 (actually 641c), StarOffice 6.0, Gnumeric, or KOffice or one of the accounting apps that ships with Mandrake 8.2

Problem 4. Computer crashes. No problem take it to the local computer repair center. Ooops, they don't support Linux.

How often is this going to happen??? And it's probably installed on ext3, so no problems. Hardware problems are hardware problems, so the shop can boot a diagnostic tool from a floppy to test the hardware. Anyway, they can probably return it to Walmart.com and get a replacement.

Problem 5. Ohhh, there's a new cool USB 2.0 gadget out for the computer at my local store. I'll buy it and connect it to my system. Hmmm, Linux doesn't recognize the new hardware and there's no Linux install software included with the gadget.

USB 2.0 won't work on Windows XP either. So, the user might have to upgrade to Mandrake 9.1 or whatever release first has a kernel with usb2 support.

The point is, that Linux, at this time, is only for people that want to download it/buy it, install it, and spend alot of time learning Linux. It's not for people that just want to use it as part of their computer and don't really care what's running in the background as long as they can e-mail, surf, do finances, play games, etc. We Linux zealots often forget that the majority of the population could care less if they're running Wndoze, Linux, or Mac, as long as they can do what they need to do with their computer.

I would disagree, and say that at the moment, linux is restricted to those who are geeks or know geeks, because they don't know that they are capable of installing it. My girlfriend now uses Mandrake 8.2 (though she has win98 dual-boot, atm only used for downloading photos from my camera which is not well enough supported by gphoto2), and prefers it, mainly because a lot of things come with the distro that don't come with windows. For example, she would have to get a new version of winamp to play music she got from a friend, whereas xmms plays it fine - and she has no network connection).

Sure, I had to install Mandrake for her, but I had to do that with Win98 also. She did the installation/upgrade to Mandrake 8.2 from 8.1, and I don't know if she would manage win98.

So, now we will really see how difficult linux is to use, now that a decent distro comes pre-installed, which IMHO was the only major obstacle before.

Now, we can only hope that these sell well.

Re:Linux isn't ready for the Store Shelves

[Rastor0]

Problem 1. Connect to the Internet. The customer calls his local internet provider, Cable, DSL, or dial-up and says he want's to setup his system to connect to the net. The Internet provider sends him the software. Hmmm, where's the Linux install. Call back the provider. The provider asks what Operating system he's running. Customer repsonds "Linux". Click!

While it's true that most ISP's don't provide "official" support for Linux, very few disallow it or actively discourage it. I'm sure that if Joe Shmoe called Mandrake Support they could instruct him in the ways of the Internet Connection Druid.

Problem 2. Swapping files. The customer's best friend just downloaded this cool program and wants him to try it. Hmmm, just stick the disk in and and run setup?

"Swapping Files" is not really a problem, the included StarOffice can read/write Office files quite well. "Running Windows Programs", which you describe, won't fly out of the box... but it's just a purchase of Crossover Office away.

Problem 3. U.S. Federal Income Tax Software, Quicken for Linux, MS Office for Linux, Wheel of Fortune for Linux? While there are alternatives, they aren't mainstream.

I filed my taxes on the web this year. Doesn't get much more mainstream than that.

Problem 4. Computer crashes. No problem take it to the local computer repair center. Ooops, they don't support Linux.

Call up Mandrake; support is included. Of course, since this is Linux, it's highly unlikely the user is going to experience a crash, anyway.

Problem 5. Ohhh, there's a new cool USB 2.0 gadget out for the computer at my local store. I'll buy it and connect it to my system. Hmmm, Linux doesn't recognize the new hardware and there's no Linux install software included with the gadget.

If the user doesn't make sure the device will be supported before plunking down money, that's just stupid. That would be like purchasing something that clearly states "For Macintosh Only" on the box. Although USB support used to be a point of contention, it got much better with the 2.4 kernel.

The point is, that Linux, at this time, is only for people that want to download it/buy it, install it, and spend alot of time learning Linux. It's not for people that just want to use it as part of their computer and don't really care what's running in the background as long as they can e-mail, surf, do finances, play games, etc.

On the contrary, I think Linux (especially a user-friendly distro such as Mandrake) is ideal for someone who just wants to e-mail, surf, and play games... the reason being, the e-mail, browsing, and several games, as well as Office software and other tools are included and ready to go! Linux's immunity to Windows viruses and Mozilla's ability to browse without popups make it a superior experience in many respects. It's the power users, especially heavy gamers, for whom Linux isn't such a great choice... although WineX and "mainline" Wine have made great strides in that department.

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[Diamon]

There's a difference between saying Rednecks shop at Wal-Mart and saying everyone who shops at Wal-Mart is a Redneck. The insult to all Wal-Mart customers is only in your mind. Plus I don't think saying Rednecks shop at Wal-Mart falls into insulting someone on their Race/Color/Creed/Religion/National Origin/Sexual Orientation.

They'll have to change the name of fsck

[gelfling]

It's too close to.....well you know. And Walmart has a strict policy of protecting us from dirty words and evil thoughts.

Come to think of it, kill will have to change too.

Re:They'll have to change the name of fsck

[Dirtside]

Heck, even the kernel will have to change. Imagine the outcry when the average Merkin finds out that Linux sometimes kills orphans! Or, even worse, that your network card can become promiscuous!

why this is A Bad Thing

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Before we all get giddy with excitement, consider this -- WalMart selling Linux may be what it takes for AOL to port to Linux.
Last time I checked, that's one of the signs of the apocalypse! (though I admit I'm posting before the Coffee has really kicked in)

Re:why this is A Bad Thing

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Aiiiieeee!
Great, early Monday and you've soured me on the entire week.

that's it, I'm going back to bed

Re:As a person who shops at Wal-mart...

[Peyna]

Hell, at my company we have off on "Deer Slaying Day" as it's affectionatly know as. (Monday after Thanksgiving).

I worked at a GM factory one summer, and the employees there told me that one year they had to shut down production and send every one home for the day because not enough people showed up on opening day of deer season.

And from dictionary.com:

hick Pronunciation Key (hk) Informal
n.

A person regarded as gullible or provincial: "New Yorkers had a horrid way of making people feel like hicks" (Louis Auchincloss).

adj.

Provincial; unsophisticated: a hick town.

[After Hick, a nickname for Richard, from Middle English Hikke.]

Re:agree

[black88]

Absolutely!! Besides, who do you think does a majority of the hard labor in the south and midwest? You have the White "redneck" working class, then the black folk, who, by and large, are all working class, and the latinos. As regards the White working class, you know how many of these so-called stupid rednecks ship the food in this country? Bottom line is: Some people are arrogant prick elitists, and, whilst the concept of elitism does not bother me, I find thast it really depends upon whether or not the person speaking has the right to feel this way in due part to achievement, or because said person feels this way because they know how to do something, ie use Linux effectively, that a lot of people do not. What about your mechanic? How many times have you noticed that these guys are just hackers(GEARHEADS) of a different stripe, and are far from stupid, at least where it matters to the situation at hand.

Meanwhile...

[Heghta']

Meanwhile, in a deep cavern below Redmond...

Bill: "Did it work?"
Steve: "Yes, and they only asked 10 millions for it."
Bill: "That cheap. The company didn't ask more?"
Steve: "Yes. It's actually all money for bribing their higher-ups."
Bill: "Splendid. So they will start selling machines with Linux. Monopoly, my judge? No, we don't have one. See, even Walmart sells Linux Machines. So how dare those States say we have a monopoly."
Steve: "And the best thing is, all the strupid peons will order software along, and when they realize it wont work, they will blame Linux for it, and get Windows for the machine. So we will even increase our retail Sales."
Bill: "Damn Steve, your evil beats mine. You should really ask Slashdot for an icon of your own!"
Steve: "So how's the other plan going?"
Bill: "Fine, fine. With the RIAA and the MPAA on our Side we can't fail. And once DRM is a must, we will crush those Linux Geeks."
Steve: "Yes, Yes. But the young Torvalds. He could be very useful for us if he joined us. Can you arrange that?"
Bill: "He will either join us, or die..."

Maybe joe sixpack doesn't want to buy it!

[mekkab]

What if joe sixpack is a cheapskate, is scared of microsoft word (just hitting "enter" and getting that new line to start off with a lowercase letter! ), and is willing to deal with some free stuff and get on that there internet thing.

Re:You don't know what you're talking about

[Peyna]

My ISP and my former ISP both have techs that run linux.

Is there any other way to run an ISP without using some form of unix? Plus, most ISPs also host websites, and apache is ran on some 80-90% of all websites, and most of those are are *nix operating systems.

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[Patrick13]

Heres the page for Walmart's Duron...

On a related note....

[Tin Weasil]

Sam's Club (basically walmart) is offering two "do-it-yourself" kits that are basically just cases, power supplies, and motherboards that are advertised with "Easy to use Linux Operating System". Check them out here:

http://www.samsclub.com/eclub/main_shopping.jsp? co e=0&oidPath=0%3a-15464%3a-16203%3a635001&mt=a&n=0& BV_SessionID=_SC_1661883245.1026746490_CS_&BV_Engi neID=cccfadcfjgjfijhcfkfcfkjdgoodflf.0
and here
http://www.samsclub.com/eclub/main_shopping. jsp?co e=0&oidPath=0%3a-15464%3a-16203%3a657125&mt=a&n=0& BV_SessionID=_SC_1661883245.1026746490_CS_&BV_Engi neID=cccfadcfjgjfijhcfkfcfkjdgoodflf.0

I saw one at the local Sam's Club yesterday. The funniest part was the bold letters on the box: "Linux Included, Windows Optional."

It'll meet their needs after a little piracy

[Tenebrious1]

Newbies very often buy a computer with very modest intentions but quickly get comfortable with the machine and then want to start adding programs and doing the same things with it that they see their friends and relatives do.

Yeah, I remember hearing people say they just want the computer to do recipies and geneology, but two months later I look and find a million downloaded shareware programs (all saved to the desktop mind you). When they find that the programs their friends send them don't work, they'll start cursing Linux. It's what happened when Apple started selling their Performa machines in retail stores. Of course, with Apple, the only choice they had was to return the machines. Not with these though.

This is what's gonna happen. They'll be sitting at a barbeque talking about how unhappy they are with it, thinking of taking it back (well, send it back since they're only available online at the moment- if they ever sell retail, we'll see more of this). One guy will speak up, saying how Joe's son came over and installed Windows and Office on his system. Joe's son will become very popular as he goes from house to house charging $40 to install XP Pro (corporate version without activation he downloaded from Kazaa) along with Office XP. The systems "work" now, so everyone is happy.

I expect most people who do buy these machines will do so, some after they figure out they can't run Windows programs, while others will have purchased the machines with the intent to have Joe's son load XP on it.

Why not choose...

[Per Abrahamsen]

...StarOffice and Apache for the XP box as well, if the purpose is to compare similar equiped boxes?

I don't know about MySQL on win32, and I would guess the Gtk applications would be clearly inferior on XP than on Mandrake, since they provide a native interface on the later.

Re:It's not managers, its employees and customers

[dylan_-]

You even mention Zip files to alot of users and they get confused let alone say, just untar the file. huh? ok just type tar -xzvf (name).

Or, just click on it...

Numbers

[Capt_Troy]

They have been selling the Lindows PC for some time on the site, does anyone know how many have sold? What the interest in these are?

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[Anonvmous Coward]

It's perfectly okay to insult Rednecks. They don't have an anti-defamation league so we're safe from being sued.

Re:Why only 1 distro?

[interstellar_donkey]

because customers are stupid

Exactly.

This whole thing worries me. I sure as heck feel bad for anyone who has to work the phones at the Wal Mart tech support line.

"I cant get this to work"
Did you read the man page on it?
"Huh? Whats that?"
Ok, fine. Drop to shell, I'll walk you through it.
"What the heck is that? Where is my start button? Where is the control panel? My pockets hurt."

Why *NOT*?

[happyclam]

I am dismayed that this community has such a low opinion of the usability of Linux. Either that or we have a terrifically low opinion of Joe Sixpack.

Yes, if something goes wrong with the Linux installation or apps, Joe Sixpack won't know how to fix it. But wait... what happens if something goes wrong with the Windows machine or app that Joe's friend just bought?

How many of us have spent time helping friends, neighbors, and relatives install a new version of Windows when the store clerk at CompUSA or some other "knowledgeable" outlet says, "well, gee, um... you need to upgrade your Operating System!" So they paid $80 for the upgrade, and then they called us.

It is my opinion that Linux is stable and friendly enough to compete with Windows on Windows' own terms.

Re:Union busting is a good thing...

[ShavenYak]

Agreed - since there is nothing that Wal-Mart sells that can't be bought elsewhere, in theory the market should do the job of the union. If employees are being treated poorly, they are free to talk about it. If enough of them voice enough complaints, there will be a financial impact on Wal-Mart (due to boycotts or the like) and they'll be forced to reexamine their policies.

Unfortunately, in some places Wal-Mart is beginning to reach a quasi-monopoly status because their prices are so much lower and they are so much more convenient that other grocers and retailers are being squeezed out. I wonder how many Wal-Mart employees in a typical store are there precisely because their last place of employment was forced to shut down or downsize as a result of Wal-Mart coming to town?

Linux? OpenBeOS!

[teamhasnoi]

Beos would have been the perfect! OS for this use! Super fast, stable, EASY TO INSTALL, easy to CONFIGURE. Linux is not ready for a first time PC buyer. I repeat. Linux is not ready for a first time PC buyer!

Many strides have been made in ease of installation and configuration, (Lindows) and software, (Open Office) BUT it is still far too easy to shut a new user down. Throw them into the terminal, misconfigure networking, try and install some software, you will lose a open source user. Beos was easy to use, and made it easy to install new software!

OpenBeos will be what Linux should be on the desktop.

You can Mod this -50, and I'll still be posting at 1. :P

Re:It's not managers, its employees and customers

[rseuhs]

dylan was also talking about Linux.

If you click on a .tar, .tar.gz, .tgz, .zip or whatever else (I think .arj and .rar are also supported) the right thing will happen. (No command line needed)

Until recently, a naked Windows-install could not handle .zip files at all.

A Thought

[namespan]

If you a member of a Linux Users Group, you really ought to print up some flyers and take a jaunt down to your local Wal-Mart (or Wal-Marts-- there are THREE within 15 miles of me for some strange reason) and speak with the manager of the computing/electronics department. Letting people know what kind of help/support is out there might be a good thing to do.

Of course, this assumes that not all members of your LUG are scary beyond all reason....

Re: Wow! a REGIONAL vendor is selling Linux PCs?

[pjrc]

Fry's (Some regional electronics firm ...) selling Linux pre-installed computers is just not as "World-changing" as Wal-Mart (A well known INTERNATIONAL corporation that most everyone on the planet HAS heard of.)

We're talking about Walmart quietly adding PCs on their website with little promotion (other than geek news coverage) vs Fry's (a large regional store) displaying linux-based PCs in Fry's stores and boldly promoting it in their advertising. A friend of mine went there twice in the last couple weeks and bought two of them right off the shelf in the store. Saw a big ad, no mail order, no needing to know about about an obscure page on a website, didn't already need to have a PC, etc.

Sure, Walmart may be able to reach everyone, if they try... and maybe they will someday.

But in the here and now, and lot more people are getting exposed to a bargain linux-based PC due to (regional) Frys than (international) Walmart. Just because you're bitter that Fry's isn't in your area doesn't mean that they aren't managing to expose a lot of people to the concept of a $300 PC with linux.

Sure, you may like Walmart better (I do too... Fry's really does terrible customer service), and it is true that Walmart could expose a lot more people to linux-based computers, but the fact is that their linux-based PCs are on their website, only available to people who already have a PC and are willing to mail order. Fry's has these $300 machines in their stores, and they're devoting major advertising to let people know about it.

Troll Hole here.

[Erris]

Time to swat some BS I see posted above and around. Thank you FortKnox, for modding this nonsense up so that I can jump up and down on it and "The Evil Troll King" too.

Bravery is required to do anything new or different. The person doing the new thing generally has to overcome resistance by promissing the new thing will be better. When things go wrong, and they always do, the brave soul will lose face.

It is agrivating to see so many troll posts, "It's hard cuz WalMart is stoopid." I don't know anyone who would equate intimate knowledge of the workings of any distro with inteligence. Well, I know a few NT users who were convinced that they were clever for understanding such things.

Ah yes, I don't want to forget the evil troll king, who thinks the box would be vandalized just like his poor old 486s running win3.1 were. Nope, real user accounts make that difficult. M$ flaws, designed to remove rights from users, are not present in reasonable OS. Those flaws are still present and that's why the average M$ computer display at places like CompuUSA is little more than a looped advert. It might as well be hooked up to a set top DVD because it does little to demonstrate any of the computer's ability. A real M$ demo, of course, would not be nearly as exciting as it would inevitably end in the famous BSoD.

You do make a point, however. If a manager can't setup demos, then the whole idea of selling Linux in the stores is flawed and will ultimately fail. Do managers at computer retail stores actually set up demos anymore? I imagine the "demo" comes preconfigured, as M$ has decided that managers can't do that for themselves. Your logic then applies to M$ as well.

If a manager can't setup demos, then the whole idea of selling Microsoft Software in the stores is flawed and will ultimately fail.

Oh wait, Microsoft is failing.

Re:Why not dual-boot?

[teamhasnoi]

BeOS tried it. MS would not allow any link on the desktop, bootloader, or documentation with any PC that had BeOS installed on the hardrive. BeOS got to include a boot floppy, IIRC, on some Toshibias and that's it.

That situation was partially responsible for the death of BeOS. OpenBeos will not have those problems!

Re:Wow! a REGIONAL vendor is selling Linux PCs?

[Phroggy]

For those of us in the civilized part of the country, Fry's is huge - they're usually a little out of the way, but it's not uncommon to browse around at Fry's and run into people you know, because geeks go there so often that you're bound to run into them from time to time. On top of that, Fry's has AT LEAST a full-page color ad in the newspaper every day of the week (often the back page of the Sports section), and often a 4-page section. This is seen by far more than just the geeks who hang out there regularly; this is seen by EVERYBODY.

Besides, outpost.com is just as accessible as walmart.com.

Re:agree

[13Echo]

I love Linux, and use it instead of Windows at home.

Recently, someone hit my car, so I had to buy a 25 year old truck to just to have something to drive. Since then, I've had to become a mechanic of sorts. I've fixed all sorts of little things on that truck in the last few months, and I actually find that kind of stuff *enjoyable*.

So here I am, typing this message on Slashdot, on my Slackware 8.1 box, and I look at my figernails and what do I see? I see grease and oil that I couldn't get off of my hands from replacing my truck's shocks this weekend.

So the ignornant people of this site can call me a redneck if they like. I personally would have never thought that I was the type to do mechanic work... And I am sure that none of you would ever think that some "redneck" could be a Linux "hacker".

Excuse me... I am going to affix a Tux sticker to my truck's bumper, along side the STP and hunting club stickers that were already there when I bought the truck.

It would go a long way...

[InnereNacht]

To actually have one of these set up in store. You know how at best buy and such they have a little looping demo on how to use the PC, or what it could be used for? Why not have something like that for *nix? If there already IS something like that, why isn't it being used widespread?

Realistically, this is all it would take for someone to go "Oh, look what I can do with this!"

Re:Why only 1 distro?

[teamhasnoi]

The less choices for the 'average' consumer the better. 'They' don't want to make a decision like what ver. of Linux to install, they want to email Gramma, and play Deer Hunter 3D.

Sure fire Walmart Marketing!

[teamhasnoi]

Call it the Dale Earnhardt OS and you got yerself a sale! That man was a saint!

This isn't a problem. . .

[PhxBlue]

How many people buy their first PC over the Internet? They don't have a PC yet!

Re:agree

[13Echo]

I forgot to mention that I am an EE student too.

Rampant stupidity

[rseuhs]

... around here is pretty amazing.

Early in 2002, Walmart starts to sell PCs without Windows

"Oh my god, all the software won't run!, they are doomed!"

A couple of months later, they start selling PCs with Lindows.

"Oh my god, all the software won't run! Nobody will buy them, everybody will return them!"

A couple of weeks later, they start selling PCs with Mandrake Linux.

"Oh my god, all the software won't run! They do this only to sell them Windows extra!"

Are people around here really so stupid not to realize that if everybody would want Windows preinstalled, Microtel/Walmart would have stopped selling Windows-less PCs A LONG TIME AGO? Is really anybody so stupid to think that if too many Lindows-PCs were returned they just go ahead and ship PCs with Mandrake?

Face it: This is a big win for Linux, a big win for competition and a big win for all computer users (including Windows users, strong Linux adoption will force Microsoft to drop Palladium, believe me.)

It's not a singular event, it's a series of events (first OS-less, then with Lindows, then Mandrake) that is enough evidence that there is a market for it and is successful in the market.

Microsoft is on the decline. On every market (including desktops) they are in the defensive. They have pissed off so many companies (IBM with Windows, Sony with XBox and AOL/TM with MSN, plus tens of others) that they are the underdog.

Re:Rampant stupidity

[ryanvm]

They have pissed off so many companies (IBM with Windows, Sony with XBox and AOL/TM with MSN, plus tens of others) that they are the underdog.

I wouldn't say they're the underdog - at least not yet. Microsoft's current desktop dominance is incredibly alluring for the media giants (AOL/TW, Sony, RIAA, MPAA, etc.). The potential for secure media distribution is more than enough to make up for any toes they've stepped on. As long as they're moving towards DRM I wouldn't count on any media companies to try to take them down.

Price Comparison

[Diamon]

$399.00 Microtel 1.3 GHz Duron No OS
$399.00 Microtel 1.3 GHz Duron Lindows OS
$428.00 Microtel 1.3 GHz Duron Mandrake Linux 8.2
$499.00 Microtel 1.3 GHz Duron Mandrake Windows XP Home Edition

128MB VS 256MB

[Quazion]

I wouldnt run WinXP on 128MB, auch i know even win2k uses 80MB with default install doing nothing. So winXP cant be better or can it ? what happends when i start using photoshop and internet explorer ?

256 MB with Linux should be enough to let it run smoothly.

But again i wouldnt even take a computer with only 128MB for free, come on! you need more Mem these days, period.

website only?

[_ph1ux_]

"are only available through Wal-Mart's website."

I dont know about you - but wal-mart.com is the last place I think of for buying a new machine...

However to all them Iowan's and Kentuckites I guess it make sense...

I would like to see some sales figures from them to see if its a success. sounds to me as though there is one guy within walmart who is actually pretty cool and is pushing for this - and was just given a "test" run to see if selling these machines would be a good move. however sadly - they prolly will not sell very well because like me - few people will think about buying a machine from walmart.com - and in a year or so they may stop.

or I could be totally wrong and Sam will make another several billion.

what has this announcement done for their stock?

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[opkool]

I'm no Redneck a well. And I'm a serious geek. And I shop at Wal-Mart every once and then. So what?

The thing is, I was seriously thinking on getting an OS-less computer to install Mandrake on it. My current Linux box (my only box) is showing it's age on heavy usage, say, compiling libs while using KDE and running Galeon with heavy Java usage.

Now Wal-Mart is selling, on-line, affordable PCs with Mandrake already installed.

Mmmm, what was my checking account balance again?

I will wait for a review or too before buying, though.

Re:Mod parent up...!

[Asprin]

I also suspect that Walmart's license negotiations with Microsoft may be more difficult in the future....

Not that Wal-Mart is any sort of "Mecca High-Technologique", but Microsoft needs Wal-Mart a LOT more than Wal-Mart needs Microsoft. Why?

Check this out.

Yup, that's right. Wal-Mart is FIRST in the world with annual revenues of $219 billion. Microsoft was 175th with revenues of $25 billion.

Ladies and germs, that's an order of magnitude difference in revenue.

Also, notice that the difference between Wal-Mart and #2 (Exxon-Mobil) is $28 billion, which is also > MS revenue. The truth is that Microsoft is "big", but Wal-Mart redfines "biggest". In the accompanying Fortune article, they point out that $220 bil is more than any company ever made in a year. Ever.

This is important because among the long list of gripes people levy against Wal-Mart is their notoriously cutthroat approach to strong-arming manfacturers and distibutors. They dictate what, how, when, where and how much. Unless you own your own country where you can lock them out, you pretty much do what they want or give up the opportunity to have your products sold off their shelves.

Think about it this way. If MS sold eveything they made direct thru Wal-Mart, they would only provide about 10% of Wal-Mart's revenue, and that's at high margins Wal-Mart wouldn't be willing to pay.

WM: "You want to charge us *how much* for WinXP Home Edition? BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! That's, like, a 90% markup over your per-unit costs! You'll take $10 a copy and like it or go elsewhere and take your stupid X-boxen with you.

The two questions to which I wasn't able to find answers while typing this are: what are the top ten US Computer System Retailers (# of units/year) and is Wal-Mart one of them?

Anyone know?

It's a message to

[netringer]

Microsoft. Wal-Mart's just sending a message Microsoft. The ol' boys in Bentonville like to wield Wal-Mart's buying power to negotiate great exclusive pricing deals with vendors. You can be sure that, Microsoft, being a monopoly does not feel a strong need to negotiate. MSFT's monopoly is more solid than WMTs.

So... The Wal-Mart boys think, "We'll show them. We'll WILL feature the product of the competion until they come the table."

So Wal-Mart makes all kinds of noise about featuring Linux on PCs. The aren't serious about it because they know their Joe Six-Pack customer isn't gonna grok Linux, but they hope that maybe the shoutin' will embarrass them and bring Microsoft back with a sweeter deal.

If Microsoft gives Wal-Mart an exclusive price on bundling Windows the Linux PCs will disappear from Wal-Mart's shelves.

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[brsmith4]

Wow, its nice to see that slashdot is no longer filled with open-minded, intelligent individuals. It is now populated with bigots who like to impress others with their superior intellects and mastery of everything over your common, ordinary person. I reply not only to you, but to those that sit at their computers and insult these 'rednecks' as you like to call them. In my opinion, this displays an utter lack of maturity and makes me question the integrity of those posting on this site. Yes, the rednecks have ways which are strange to 'y'all', but this is no reason to treat them as if they are a backward group of ignorant morons whose socio-economic status has indefinitely limited them to shopping at such stores as Wal-Mart. Has anyone ever told you that stereotyping is a BAD thing? What's funny is how the stereotypical Slashdot hacker (coder, not crackers) broils when they get word that the government has stereotyped them into the very group (crackers) that they wholeheartedly detest and in most cases, aren't a part of. I can only laugh at such hipocrisy. I am a college student, not a 'redneck', and I shop at Wal-Mart simply because after auto insurance, tuition, books, and my residence is paid off, I simply don't have the time nor the money to shop at the Epicure for my tv diners and 12 packs of Mt. Dew. The day that I can join the crowd of 1337 /.ers that can afford to, maybe I will. Also, I played deer hunter at one time simply because I thought it was kinda cool for a minute. Does this make me a backwoods, green-tooth/no-tooth, spawn of incestual relations? I hardly think so.

Stay away from Fry's!

[Jon Howard]

I've been tempted by their excellent prices far too many times. Their computer hardware is nearly all refurbished (or just relabelled), and many of the items on the shelves have been returned and resold 3 or more times - count the number of restock stickers.

Not only does their hardware suck, but they're a tremendous pain in the ass about refunds. they are almost only willing to accept exchanges, you will have to argue at length for anything else (with few exceptions).

Re:Now how many people will actually buy one?

[Dirtside]

Yeah. It's like insulting stupid people. You'll never get an outcry of stupid people saying you're a bigot (intellect-ist?), because who's going to openly admit that they're stupid? Actual stupid people don't usually think they're stupid, so they just chuckle as if the person doing the insulting is talking about someone else...

Re:It's not managers, its employees and customers

[HiThere]

As of the last time I checked, that's a KDE only thing unless you do some special configuration on Gnome, which I've never bothered to figure out (and it's pretty sure that the people we're talking of wouldn't figure out either).

Now there was an announcement today of something for Gnome2 that sounded like it might do this, but I'm sure it wouldn't come pre-installed on any current Linux.

True, KDE is the Mandrake default desktop. But if you just click on the file you get a read-only copy, which would be bound to be discouraging. You need to right-click to do an extract (and then you need to say what to extract and where to put it [yes, extract here is one of the choices, but that's also saying where to put it]).

I wouldn't trust my wife to manage this. She's smart, but she'd not technical. She's not anti-technical, she's just almost totally non-technical. Ask her about color combinations, or how to play a strange musical instrument, or what the proportions of a flute should be ... well, she has areas where I find myself quite as lost as she finds herself in my area.

She's used Win95 for around 8 years now. And she is just beginning to understand how folders work. Even more frightening, she came to Win95 from a Mac. She likes to leave all her files scattered around the desktop so she can find them. If something happens, and the files get moved, then she needs my help to find them again.

I will grant that my wife is an extreme case, but she's not the worst. (One day a week I work at an internal help desk.)

Many people find both the Mac and Windows to be more than they can cope with. Don't expect Linux to do any better. We may hope to do as well...

Re:It's not managers, its employees and customers

[rseuhs]

As of the last time I checked, that's a KDE only thing unless you do some special configuration on Gnome, which I've never bothered to figure out (and it's pretty sure that the people we're talking of wouldn't figure out either).

You probably tried RedHat, right?

Complaining about having to do a lot of configuration to run a server-distro on the desktop is like complaining about having to buy and install a soundcard on a rack-mount server to listen to mp3s.

RedHat said themselves that they don't target the desktop, so please try SuSE or Mandrake before you bash desktop-Linux.

She's used Win95 for around 8 years now. And she is just beginning to understand how folders work. Even more frightening, she came to Win95 from a Mac. She likes to leave all her files scattered around the desktop so she can find them. If something happens, and the files get moved, then she needs my help to find them again.

How exactly would KDE/Linux worsen this situation?

KDE's featureset is a superset of the Windows-GUI. For somebody only using Windows, using KDE should not be a problem. Of course once you are used to KDE (like me), going back to Windows is a real pain because you get used to all those nice little enhancements and features.

Re:It's not managers, its employees and customers

[HiThere]

... You probably tried RedHat, right?

Complaining about having to do a lot of configuration to run a server-distro...

Yeah, I usually use Red Hat. But I use Mandrake periodically. It could be that Mandrake now comes with extraction on Gnome pre-configured. It didn't the last time I tried.

How exactly would KDE/Linux worsen this situation?
All the things she sort of knew wouldn't work. The clicks would be different. Etc. It's not inherrently different, but none of the same programs work, the mouse clicks are different, etc. And the error messages make even less sense. This doesn't matter too much, since use usually just says "Something's wrong with my computer. Fix it!", only with a tone of desperation. It's usually something quite simple, but the error message is, of course, gone before I ever get there, so I have to guess at what the problem is. And "something" isn't very helpful. But she tries to avoid bothering me, so she dismisses the dialog and plunges ahead (without reading it, or at least without remembering it).

Linux would be new, in a realm that is already quite frightening. The programs would all be new. Be assured, she would find it quite frightening, this despite the fact that she sees me using it every day. *SHE* doesn't use it.

Converting this class of use requires a lot of care. Linux is currently much better off not aiming for them. The high school and junior high kids are a much better target. That gets a coterie of experts distributed throughout the community (and gives time for the programs to improve a little more). Then when the replacement push comes there will be those available in their own neighborhood, possibly in their own family, who can help them.

I do intend to move my wife over to Linux, but not until I locate a good music composition program, i.e., score composition program. Quality printing is a major requirement, though complex score handling isn't (she prints out music for students, most of it at the level of "Hot Cross Buns", or a little more sophisticated). And the art programs need to improve. Currently we do most of our work in Deneba Canvas, and I was quite pleased last year to see a version coming out for Linux. But they appear to have dropped it. So I need to learn how to use the Gimp, and Kontour, and KPaint. Currently, however, Kontour doesn't seem to have a fine enough touch to be an adequate alternative to Canvas, which means that I have plenty of time to learn Gimp. Gimp seems to be a good program for our purposes, but not sufficient. We really need a program that handles objects and bit-maps in the same framework, and allows rescaling without loss of quality (I assume that Canvas it just maintaining all of the detail from the original bit map, and displaying it in frames of differing sizes).

Re:Mandrake!!! Windows XP Home Edition???

[Diamon]

D'Oh!

Walmart's own computers

[Swaffs]

I'm still waiting to see Walmart switch their own store office computers from Windows to Linux. For a company that is so well known for running efficiently and cheaply, I would have thought they would have done it by now.

This is much better than Lindows

[g4dget]

Mandrake is a great distribution and it doesn't make any promises ("runs Windows software") that it can't keep.

For most home users, Mandrake provides everything they will ever need (if it's a full install). The only issue I see potentially is that they may not know all the software they have. Let's hope people aren't afraid to explore the menus. Ideally, consumer Linux PCs would ship with a simple welcoming application that shows people all the software they have and makes it easy for them to find stuff ("I want to write a letter.").

While I think the Linux software is ready for the desktop, there still remains an uphill struggle in terms of consumer behavior and "ad hoc" support. For example, right now, consumers think that to get software, they go to the store; if they don't see anything for Linux on the shelves, they assume (incorrectly) that there is no software. And when they want hardware, people at the local CompUSA will sell them something for Windows or Mac, only. Still, someone has to start selling these boxes to consumers, and WalMart is a good place to do it. Let's hope the printer they sell along with it just plugs in...

In the worst case, this is simply a veiled attempt at selling a PC effectively without an OS, assuming that people will get Windows themselves somehow. But just like they say in showbiz: just spell the name right. If it's usable at all, some people will keep it. That's a good start.