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Borland Releases Kylix 3.0 for Delphi and C++
An anonymous reader writes "Looks like Borland is giving us Kylix for C++ after all. Kylix 3.0 is available in Open, Professional, and Enterprise versions. Time to start banging out those CLX apps! The Register also has a story about this."
The writer seems to think that Kylix 3 will be a C++ replacement for Kylix 2. Kylix 3 will support C++ in addition to the existing feature set.
I don't know about Delphi, but most of our code is developed in Delhi.
Any fool can talk, but it takes a wise man to listen.
[1] http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/hos-23.07.02-0 00/
[2] http://www.borland.com/kylix/open/index.html
I can think of several great products released by Borland over the years - Turbo Pascal, Turbo C, and Turbo Basic to name a few of them. There was a time when Borland's products were the "compiler of choice" for most developers, especially in the CP/M and early MS-Dos days. For the longest time, Borlands Debugger (TDebug) was shipped with Microsoft's C compilers.
I've actually used Kylix 2.0 Open Edition to cross-compile a shareware game I've been working on in Delphi 6. It's very convienent to have one set of source code, and simply re-compile with Kylix for Linux distribution! (Yes, avoiding Windows API calls and such helps... plus I'm using JEDI-SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) for graphic/sound cross-platform stuff). Perhaps now instead of people saying, you can't develop cross-platform games with Delphi you should use C++... I can simple agree (instead of arguing and pointing out that Kylix is cross-platform) and say, sure, I could do that and use the same compiler I've been using all along... leaving certain code in Delphi, but re-writting parts in C++ (just for fun) but no, I don't have to use C++ it's just a language - I prefer Kylix 3.0 for my development environment!
This would be a major reason for schools on tight budgets to turn to Linux for computer programming classes! Why pay for the Microsoft tools (and tax) when this is available? Seems the LTSP folks should look into this...
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
From the Borland Kylix 3 FAQ
Q: What development languages does Kylix 3 support?
Once installed, Kylix 3 delivers two separate IDEs--one for use with the Delphi language and one that supports C/C++. This support enables Kylix developers to provide solutions in the language that suits them or the language that is appropriate for the given project. Both IDEs take advantage of the sophisticated CLX architecture and each has corresponding support for crossplatform development with a Borland product for the Windows platform: Delphi language with Delphi, and C/C++ with
C++Builder.
Q: Can I use standard Linux development tools along with Kylix 3?
Yes. For example, use build tools such as Make files or Ant, and editors such as vi or Emacs.
http://borland.com/kylix/pdf/kyl3_faq.pdf
So, looks like no GCC-support...
I looked all over the Kylix website, and failed to locate any screenshots for their product. What gives?
:-/
Yes, I know I can download a Trial, if I go through the registration process... but I just wanted to look at it.
I've never heard of a product page without product images. Wierd.
Anyone have a link?
This guy is obviously not an emacs user.
They're *selling* it. They're only giving away an "Open" version. The open version can't be used to create commercial apps, and doesn't contain all of the components that make delphi development so easy and efficient. I use delphi at work (I've got it open now, actually), and I've tried the Open version of Kylix before at home... it's way watered down compared to the pro/enterprise versions of delphi/kylix. Still a really useful tool for simple, quick, and fast apps.
It's not a bad business model, considering most people doing non-comercial development won't pay a hefty price for a professional development environment anyways.
You can already find out how seemless the Object Pascal/C++ integration will be, Borland C++ Builder
I've used BCB, and it's a quality product. It's not as clean as Delphi, but some PHB's I've seen get scared when you tell them you're going to write software in *shock* something other than C/C++.
When it comes to working with databases it's just hard to beat the usefullness and quality of the Borland database components. You just have to do so much less work when you use them.
Is there standard command line compiler in Kylix? Is it possible to compile existing programs - for example Linux kernel - with it?
It will be nice if gcc wouldn't be only choice.
Yes, I believe it does have intellisense.
Actually, until VS.NET came out, I would have said that Delphi/Kylix's intellisense was far superior to VC6 and everything else on the market. As of Visual Studio.NET, however, MS has made a comeback in the Easy-To-Use IDE race, and is on par w/ delphi.
Although I wouldn't turn up my nose at the Borland compiler, it's a fast one, and it produces tight and good code.
ok borland have been shipping their CPP compiler for a while on linux (nothing new)
what this release does I would think is link aganst the CLX to do the GUI stuff
and add their CPP IDE (which is actually visual and drag and drop unlike microsofts which is just a text editor but they call it visual...)
now if they where useing STANDARD CPP why should using GCC be impossible (I suspect they have a few broken things in terms of standard support just like gcc has a few broken things) and the fact that CPP changes every meeting does not help but it would be nice if they said what gcc would require to do this
(I am not talking about opening up CLX just linking your code with it useing gnu tools)
borland selling in effect libs and a IDE would be a good thing IMHO
regards
john jones
You are kidding, right? When I was developing applications in Delphi, we were going out of our way to avoid the BDE. It was a pain to make sure that the users had the proper BDE configuration (some wierd BDE setting getting changed was the cause of 75% of our database problems). Plus the BDE initialization added at least 10 seconds to the program startup time. We were MUCH happier when we went with the native drivers and some direct access components.
"The defense of freedom requires the advance of freedom" - George W Bush
How about for people who are still learning how to code? Oh, I forgot, real 1337 linux hackers never went through that phase, they came out of the womb with their knowledge.
All other things being equal, an integrated RAD environment will very often shorten time to code and debug a project. It is definitely easier to use a RAD tool like Delphi than just a text editor and command-line tools. For some people, it may not be that much different. For others, that may be the difference between getting into programming and not.
Oh, I forgot again, you don't want those people in your precious Linux world.
"Why should we leave America to go to America Junior?" - H. Simpson, on visiting Canada
Never Winter Nights gameeditor for linux hasnt been released because of this. It was build with c++ builder but they couldnt release it for linux because they didnt have Kylix yet to allow. Yew! Wonder who fast isle can provide the editor ;))
yush
I can't stand VS .net, I started using it and then tired of the crap and found VS6 much more straightforward. In either case I'm glad I rarely need Visual Studio, as most of my development is either *nix or cross-platform.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
So you'd use a proprietary product, just not if it uses another proprietary product? (that is distributed under a very similar, and even less restrictive, license!)
How is Borland any less evil than Troll Tech?
Huh? How is Troll Tech evil? People wanted QT under the GPL, and lo and behold, they released it under the GPL. Seems like a nice bunch of folks to me.
For them, nothing is easy to use, since coding is full of new concepts that they don't understand yet.
Using multiple xterms is not more difficult than using multiple windows within an IDE, and both require the multiple window concept in order to display different files simultaneously.
Now, coding in a single window, closing one file in order to view another - that's more difficult / less productive.
Grrrrrr.....
anyhows
C++ looks good, C Builder has always had far better debuging tools than Delphi, I hope Kylix C++ has decient debugging.
The professional version now has a postgres driver, there was a serious lack of DB drivers in Kylix 1 professional.
Kylix 2 had an odd dependency on Wine I hope thats fixed now.
Looks like it's time to upgrade that Kylix 1 Pro box set I've got sat on the shelf...
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Perhaps more important, on the C++ side, is the general fact that code compiled with one C++ compiler is not likely to work with code generated by a different compiler. C++ specifies the use of name mangling, but doesn't specify how that is to be implemented. So all your class names and so on are represented in some compiler-specific way in the shared libraries, making them inaccessible to programs compiled with a different C++ compiler, unless the makers of the two compilers have gotten together and somehow agreed on exactly how to do the name mangling (which has not happened to date, that I've heard of).
I can't speak for C support, but the failure of Borland C++ to support the GNU compiler is inevitable, and not anyone's fault, except maybe Bjarne Stroustrup's.
one hundred twenty
is just enough characters
to write a haiku
You are confused. Delphi/Kylix used Object Pascal and is fully object. There's no problem mapping it to C++ or the other way around.
exporting the project to GNU makefile....
:)
several shortcuts and completion style things
debugging spawn processes, connecting to running processes. Almost anything debugging related it appears
dataaware compents such as labels (!), edit boxes, listboxes...
and a lot of other nice features.
No complaints, they are trying to sell it
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
A search of google did reveal however that there is a shocking number of companies who seem to believe that there is something called "GNU Perl" including apparently IBM. I'm not holding my breath for RMS to spend any of his time correcting this widespread inaccurate credit of Perl to the GNU project.
I agree 100%. I have been using Delphi since the day it came out (Feb '95) and the BDE was the biggest pain in the ass for deployment!
When they dropped the BDE requirement for Database developement (other than getting a 3rd Party DB package) it was a God-send!
I haven't used the DB stuff in Kylix yet, but it will be interesting to play with.
Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
Not quite. People really wanted it under the LGPL or BSD licenses, just like GTK+, FLTK, FOX, wxWindows, etc.
One of the problems (unless you follow Stallman's manifesto) is that although the Free version is free for open-source, their commercial licenses are structured so that if at any point in time your software project is touched by a free (free, non-commercial, acedemic, etc) version of Qt, you may never at any later time buy a commercial license and release your software commercially.
> That's why it's an odd dependency
That wasn't odd at all. They already had a full IDE for win32 which they wanted ported to Linux ASAP, and using winelib was the quickest way. That would buy them time to then rewrite it natively at their leisure. The compiler OTOH emits native code that requires only Qt. While the IDE itself is written in Delphi, some parts of it aren't (like the code editor) or might possibly use win32-isms, so it wasn't a simple recompile with the Linux compiler.
I think you are drawing a too black-and-white distinction here. The fact is, someone learning understands things to varying degrees. Using a tool like delphi that 1) has excellent integrated debugging, 2) has excellent integrated, context-sensitive documentation, and 3) has excellent intellisense shortens that learning curve by taking what they know and making it easy for them to access the documentation and declarations, and extend their current knowledge. If they were completely in the dark, neither command-line nor RAD would be much of a help. But that's not the reality for most people (at least not for very long).
Take Delphi. I want to use an object. I type the object's name, dot. Up pops a box with all of the properties and methods, in order of inheritance, with their parameter declarations. I can instantly see what options I have, which give me a great deal of insight into what this object does. If I need more, I press F1, and the help takes me to the object or property that I am on. Functions work the same. Type [function]( and up pops the declaration, so you can see exactly what you need to send this. Hit F1, and...you get the point.
I find myself relying on Delphi's intellisense features to help me code because it reduces typos and is a lot faster. And that's just one feature. A good RAD environment is extremely useful for both newbies and veterans.
This is less about difficulty than it is a matter of efficiency and expense. It costs more time, effort, and mental overhead (for most people, there are always exceptions) to work with multiple windows and command-line tools than with an integrated environment. I would argue that a great many, if not most, people would find that the benefits of a well-designed RAD tool are worth the costs ($ and time to learn how to use it properly).
"Why should we leave America to go to America Junior?" - H. Simpson, on visiting Canada
> KDevelop
Because nothing new comes from the K people, it's all just rehashes of existing software.
> JBuilder
Like VS? You must be kidding me. How exactly? If anything VS.NET copied copious amounts of ideas from JBuilder and Delphi--such as tabbed editors, the task list, the enhanced property editor, etc.
I personally believe that the __property keyword should be adopted by the ANSI C++ standard. There were so many times before I discovered Borland that I thought, for example, "I wish C++ had something like read-only members." Suddenly, I discover this nifty __property keyword that lets me do exactly that, or even better, to cause a read or assignment to execute code. It may not be ideologically pure (a purist will say an assignment will assign and do nothing more), but it is so useful and so in line with the C++ philosophy of hiding complexity, I just think it belongs. AnsiString would be a nice addition to ANSI C++ too.
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The long and the short of his answer was that we really can't expect a whole heckuva lot. The developer stated that it was not likely to be highly interoperable with conventional Linux development languages and tools. Certainly importing will be possible, but you couldn't expect, for example, gdb to be very successful with it, nor would it be likely that gcc or g++ be able to link with libraries or object files that were created with C++ Builder for Linux. Further, because C++ Builder extends the C++ language to accomodate certain features, it will not be possible to compile C++ Builder source code with g++.
I hate being the bearer of bad news (I found it discouraging, at any rate), but I'm just repeating what I was told by a Borland developer. As I said, this was about a year ago, so if there is more up-to-date info on this topic from an authorized source, I am sure I'm not the only one here who would be interested in hearing it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I aggree...
C++ is a very natural language with opperator overloading etc... but they never sorted out properties and closures.
You have to use getters/setters or nasty signal slot hackarrounds.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
thanks -mike
Before time limited apps there was missing functionality (what the parent was refering to).
As far as I know, Kylix isn't time-limited either. So missing functionality must be the determining feature for which constitutes "shareware". I would still maintain though that this isn't shareware, because it's released for a specific purpose with a specific feature set. Next thing you know, someone will be complaining that Borland releases a "Personal" edition for less money, but with less features.
-Brent
I don't know about the other apps you mentioned, but if you purchase Kylix, regardless what happens to Trolltech, you have the right to create and distribute apps you create with it however you like. Any licensing changes made by Trolltech can't apply retroactively, so the stuff you get with Kylix will still be fairly licensed to you to use in whatever manner you want. Okay, you may not be able to link with their latest libs, but you'll have the right to distribute the libs you got with Kylix with applications that use them anyways!
This won't be a big problem because you won't be able to link with those libs with g++ or gcc -- only C++ Builder for Linux. As for Kylix 3 Open, the issue of linking with QT is already covered by Borland's licensing restriction on it which requires that applications built with it be GPL'd, which goes back in synch with TrollTech's license policy anyways.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
We're close with this. In some glorious future, there will be a C++Builder that doesn't care if it's running under Linux, 'Doze, or OS X for that matter.
While we're at it, the groovy IDE is nice, but making all of the plumbing interchangeable is a Good Thing.
Don't mind paying for well thought-out product, just don't want the blood-on-goatskin experience of dealing with Redmond.
I guess CodeWarrior specializes in that sort of platform gymnastics, but their pricing for the Palm version didn't excite a purchase out of me...
Anyway, I had gaffed off the upgrade from C++Builder 5 in anticipation of this...
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I've worked in both, and didn't really find Delphi all that different from VB. I could get to the code just as easy in VB6. Delphi was different syntax, and a little more OO. Disclaimer: I didn't do a great deal of Delphi programming and I never used VB before 5.0 ..
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
ah, well that would expain it. I've heard from folks I consider knowledgable that VB before 4.0 was a steaming pile of shit :)
IDE wise, Delphi 4/5 and VB 6 were pretty similar, as I recall (I don't do VB much these days).
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
That's exactly what I was saying. If you've paid for Kylix, you'll have Trolltech's commercial license already. So you _can_ take option 1, because Trolltech will have already received compensation from you indirectly through Borland (assuming, of course, that you did get the commercial version).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
- Can't trace preprocessor code during debugging.
- Can't inspect the value of a #define during debugging. I prefer const variables.
- You undermine the code completion because it doesn't know about the existence of the property. When you press '.' or '->' you will not see your property in the popup window.
- Can very easily introduce obscure bugs that can be hard to find.
Take a look at MFC message maps to understand why using the preprocessor as a language is a mistake. I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Altering the language can be a good thing. Adding a new feature is not the only criterion for altering the language. If the alteration helps productivity then I am for the alteration being done. C++, especially, could really use it.Does it still have the clause in their open-edition licence that they have permission to come in & search your premesis (to check for commercial usage) if you install their software?
===> An eye for an eye makes everyone blind - MG
> Class Explorer
Borland has had that one for a LONG time, since before VS even existed. Just go check out BC++ 3. Not integrated as a dockable pane, but that's simply an evolution of a prior concept into a contemporary UI metaphor.
> Form Editor
Huh? Oh, you mean the VB form designer. Let's not lump VB features together with VC features, since the latter certainly won't benefit from any of the features of the former. The whole term Visual Studio is really a misnomer, because it's certainly not an integrated environment, but rather two completely and utterly unrelated IDEs. Within the context of this thread I will assume VS to mean VC. And as far as the form designer in VC is concerned, well, Borland has had the Resource Workshop for a very long time, also long before VC's time, and that offered the same paradigm.
> Message Window
Well, you kinda NEED that one with MFC development, unlike in JBuilder, so I'm not sure it qualifies as a feature as much as a shortcoming.
And the whole docking tool window concept is hardly Microsoft's creation either. Corel and Lotus have been using it for a decade, long before Microsoft adopted it and put its own visual style on it.
But when do the training wheels come off? Either you learn to adapt to new environments easily, or you use an environment that will always be there and will always provide what you need it to do.
.NET and C#. Yet Unix people are still using the same tools they've always used, emacs or vi, and just drop in a new compiler and extend the syntax rules in the editor for the new programming language. On proprietary systems, developers purchase a new system.
While you can rely on a language, you shouldn't need to rely on the tool. Especially proprietary tools.
This is probably one reason a lot of really good developers prefer the unix tools, mostly emacs or vi rather than the latest fad, because a fad is exactly what it is. One year its C++ and Visual Studio, the next year its Java, now its
So I think you're right when saying that developing in a "visual" environment is easier and you can catch on to programming quicker. But I believe that investing some more time into a "unix" tool is more valuable for your programming career. Actually, this isn't my idea--something I read on USENET.
And that's why I am spending time learning emacs. Because I don't think I'm wasting my time.
Yep, you want something that is simple enough to not overload your brain with details while you are trying to grasp the general principles.
Examples:
Python's Tkinter module (from within IDLE or just a Python shell)
FLUID, the almost unbelievably easy C++ IDE for libfltk).
There are richer IDEs with more features, but in their respective computer languages, these would be hard to beat for simplicity. I think there's a pretty cool Scheme one too, but I forget what it's called.
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
Kylix 3 is NOT yet available for downloaded.
If you go to this page
http://borland.com/products/downloads/download_ky
you will see that the latest version of Kylix (open version) is version 2.
So, who has the url for downloading Kylix 3 ?
Care to share ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The product hasn't been released yet! Not even the non-free versions. The web site doesn't make this clear, I admit.
Now I see that we need to form a special interest group: The Consortium of Programmers who want Properties in C Plus Plus, or CPP-CPP for short. Now we just need somebody with some extra money lying around to host the domain http://cpp-cpp.org and we can start gathering support, and before you know it, we'll have bought our very own U.S. Senator! Huzzah!!!
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