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Perens Backs Down from DMCA Violation

liquidsin writes "According to this article by Dan Gillmor, Bruce Perens has backed out of his plan to demonstrate how to modify a DVD player to break region coding (and openly violate the DMCA as well) due to pressure from his employer, Hewlett Packard. I wish HP had given him their blessing on this, but I guess they have to worry about shareholders first..." See our previous story for Perens' plans.

139 of 352 comments (clear)

  1. HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by krog · · Score: 5, Funny

    so, let me get this straight. he intended to explain DVD region circumvention in order to publicly disobey an authority.... then an authority said "don't do that". so he won't.

    just wanted to grab some headlines, i guess...

    1. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Manitcor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It just so happens that the authority that told him not too also pays his bills.

      Funny how prison may not seem so bad (espically to those that dont think they will go or have never been) but when you threaten someones livelyhood ideas can change quick.

      Im sure the conversation went something to the effect that if he gives his presentation that he will not work for any major computer company again. In this economy the last thing a tech worker needs is to be black listed.

      Though I wish he would go through with it I can understand his motivations not to. Im sure hes not happy about the whole situation either.

      --
      "Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
    2. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 2
      "so, let me get this straight. he intended to explain DVD region circumvention in order to publicly disobey an authority.... then an authority said "don't do that". so he won't."

      Maybe it's because he respects the authority of his employer Hewlett-Packard and the results of possibly getting fired a bit more strongly than he disrespects the values behind the DMCA.

    3. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Plutor · · Score: 4, Informative

      From the parent: "Well, it wasn't a government authority, it was a capitalist one. Which I suppose says more about his convictions than we'd like to know."
      (Implying that Bruce is only concerned with Money)

      From the article: "HP funds Perens to pursue a variety of free software projects."
      (Explaining the Bruce was concerned with his ability to continue working on your free software)

    4. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by gallen1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know the details of his relationship with HP but it might be better to say: An authority with whom he has a mutually beneficial relationship based on mutual respect asked him not to put them at risk.

      Since, according to the article, HP is funding his other free software projects this could also be viewed as a request not to bite the hand that feeds him.

      This article also says that HP 'asked him' not to give the presentation. Quite differnt from "don't do that"

    5. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Soko · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Then again, do we know what would of happened to all those OSS projets funded by HPAQ if he had of gone through with this? Where would Perl be?

      Swallowing his pride may of been the lesser of 2 evils. It most certainly isn't a black and white situation. Grow up.

      HP likely said "Put those huge balls back in your pants. You'll get to use them later - in spades."

      Soko

      --
      "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
    6. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Arandir · · Score: 4, Funny

      Without knowing what HP told him, we'll never know.

      It could have been something as simple as "you know, our legal insurance doesn't cover willful, premeditated, and pre-announced violations of the law. If you get arrested you'll have to pay for your own defense. But don't worry, when you get out in ten years your old job will still be waiting for you..."

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    7. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by unformed · · Score: 2

      Well, it wasn't a government authority, it was a capitalist one. Which I suppose says more about his convictions than we'd like to know.

      Even though still going ahead and violating the DMCA would be cooler, he's got a much higher priority to his family.

      If my company threatened to fire me for an action I was planning on committing, guess what? I'll listen up.

      However, I -don't- know the specifics, so there's no real argument, just offering a possibility...

    8. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by thales · · Score: 5, Insightful
      NOT performing a action that could cause damage to an inocent third party that has aided him says a lot about his convictions.

      Your snide insinuation also says a lot about your convictions

      --
      Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
    9. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by ichimunki · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I don't see how HP can "blacklist" him. That would point to major collusion among computer manufacturers bordering if not overstepping the bounds of legality altogether.

      However, the discussion probably went more like "We're going to fire you even if you take this on and don't get thrown in jail, because we'd rather not be associated with such things-- it hurts our credibility with Congress and industry groups to have prominent employees flouting the law."

      --
      I do not have a signature
    10. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by zangdesign · · Score: 2

      Have you ever heard the proverb "Don't shit where you eat"? If Bruce had gone through with his demo, HP would most certainly (not could have been, but most certainly) be sued for way more money than you, me, and half the people on /. would ever see in a lifetime. While money may be meaningless to you, some of us need it to do those oh-so-important things like eat, put a roof over our heads, drive to work, pay for childcare, etc..

      --
      To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
    11. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Manitcor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well it would not be something as an official black list but imagine your a manager at a competing company and Prens comes in for a job.

      Any manager would have major reservations about hiring someone who would openly and publicy go aginst his employers wishes to possible deteiment to the employer.

      If he were to go through with it then get hired somewhere else then pull the same kind of thing, then it would not be only him but the higher ups would prob point thier fingers at the guy that hired him as well.

      --
      "Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
    12. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by tmark · · Score: 2

      just wanted to grab some headlines, i guess..

      It does seem like that, doesn't it. I mean, you HAVE to believe someone as savvy as Perens would have thought to bounce this off HP legal first, before making a big, splashy statement ?

    13. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 2

      Or maybe he just felt getting HP to suffer for HIS civil disobedience was dishonorable.

    14. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by JabberWokky · · Score: 4, Insightful
      we'd rather not be associated with such things-- it hurts our credibility with Congress and industry groups to have prominent employees flouting the law.

      Which is a perfectly respectable position. Fighting law on moral grounds needs to be done two ways - the disobediants and the inside the system. Otherwise, you have either no visibility or no hope of change no matter how outrageous your acts are. One of the best dual systems in tech is 2600 and the EFF. Outside tech, you have multiple examples of activists and the ACLU.

      As important as the activists might be, every Hoffman needs his Lefcourt. The media makes up the third end of the tripod of change, whether it be big media, or just plain word of mouth.

      If you think the less of Bruce for this, I'm sure he would let you get up on stage and do it yourself. Are you willing to go to jail and spend the next year in court for your convictions?

      --
      Evan

      --
      "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
    15. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by ryanvm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, it wasn't a government authority, it was a capitalist one. Which I suppose says more about his convictions than we'd like to know.

      Oh bullshit. That's easy for you to say while you sit around on an obscure web forum and anonymously denounce "the Man". Let's see you risk your personal freedom and familiy's well-being so that geeks everywhere can download free music.

      I think the DMCA is a dangerous law too, but I don't have the balls to publicly (and illegally) flout it. And since you don't either, you should probably keep the snide comments to yourself.

    16. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 3, Interesting
      If you think the less of Bruce for this, I'm sure he would let you get up on stage and do it yourself. Are you willing to go to jail and spend the next year in court for your convictions?

      Assuming that I could count on getting legal support from the EFF, yes.

    17. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by JabberWokky · · Score: 2
      So talk to them. I would imagine they would support you. Probably not pro bono, but you're not worried about that, I assume.

      Just be aware that just because you have legal support does not mean you will win. You might wind up with $1.2 million dollars worth of debt and be on probation for a few years, ready to be yanked to jail for a minor offense.

      --
      Evan

      --
      "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
    18. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2

      Pro bono is exactly what I mean. I'd be willing to forego an income and even my freedom for a while, I would expect to have a few lawyers forego their fees.

    19. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by sterno · · Score: 2

      If you think the less of Bruce for this, I'm sure he would let you get up on stage and do it yourself. Are you willing to go to jail and spend the next year in court for your convictions?

      Nope, that's what, when I break the law, I do so in the comfort of my own home :). But this does give me an idea...

      What about taking this to a new level. Do a mass violation of the DMCA. Arrange for a gathering of hundreds or thousands of geeks and have them all, simultaneously, do exactly what Bruce was planning to do. Are they going to try to arrest all of these people? I'd like to see them try...

      --
      This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
    20. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by abe+ferlman · · Score: 2

      With power comes responsibility.

      You may not have the balls to flout your naughty bits, but then you don't have the attention of the press when you do so either. Perens, as an HP exec and open source/free software elder, does have that attention.

      It is precisely what he has to lose, and who he is, that makes his message so powerful. A real shame that he's backed down.

      --
      microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
    21. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know about you, but I have been hit with batons and risked jail time for causes I believe in before. Don't project your own indifference and fear onto everyone else.

    22. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by parliboy · · Score: 2
      As important as the activists might be, every Hoffman needs his Lefcourt. The media makes up the third end of the tripod of change, whether it be big media, or just plain word of mouth.

      Except that the third tripod of big media is intertwined with technology (MSNBC, AOL-TW, etc, etc.) Therefore, with only two legs left on the tripod, we can only assume that the whole structure will come crumbling down.

      --
      "You're never ready, just less unprepared."
    23. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 2

      just wanted to grab some headlines, i guess...

      Maybe he had not realized beforehand that he'd bring quite a few colleages (perhaps even friends) in a very difficult situation. We don't know.

    24. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Courageous · · Score: 2

      "Im sure the conversation went something to the effect that if he gives his presentation that he will not work for any major computer company again."

      I'd sure like to catch an employer giving me that conversation on tape. That way I'd never HAVE to work for any major computer company again.

      LOL.

      C//

    25. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Informative
      Yuk yuk. HP felt that it would not be possible to decouple the company from my actions - and that damage to their Linux program would likely take place if I went ahead with my efforts. That program does nice things for Samba, Debian, LSB, etc. So, I had to prioritize. I made my point against DMCA, as what went down with HP was a pretty good demonstration of its chilling effect on free speech. A better demonstration, indeed, than if I had done my trivial DMCA violation and got away with it. I'll continue to work on this. It would be nice if you would, too.

      Thanks

      Bruce

    26. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Informative
      There were no blacklist threats. I became convinced that I'd hurt HP's Linux program if I went ahead. My boss was very considerate, he even flew out to give a preamble to my talk explaining HP's position.

      Bruce

    27. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Informative
      I'll ride against the DMCA again, don't worry. The problem today was that it would have hurt HP's Linux program, hardly the desired effect.

      Bruce

    28. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Informative
      No. Consulting HP would have involved them. I still think that their best response would have simply have been to disavow the action, as they disavow opinions that I clearly identify as my own and not theirs all of the time. But they felt that they could not decouple the potential for HP to be harmed from my actions. Harming their Linux program would have resulted in a net negative effect, not the positive one I desired. What we got instead was an effective demonstration of DMCA's chilling effect. I'll continue to attack it.

      Thanks

      Bruce

    29. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by AME · · Score: 2
      Being hit with batons and risking jail time for your preferred causes doesn't necessarily make you a hero.

      It's difficult to tell, not knowing what those causes are, and not knowing what you did to effect being beaten and possibly imprisoned. And that's assuming that your statement is even true.

      --
      "I have a good idea why it's hard to verify programs. They're usually wrong." --Manuel Blum, FOCS 94
    30. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2
      I got beaten for being in a sit-in on a campus in the eighties. It was a cause that probably 80 percent of the people would at least feel was worthwhile, but that's not the issue. It's not a question of whether I'm a hero or not: I don't care whether you think I'm a hero. And the causes that I would fight for now aren't the causes I was fighting for then, either: I'm more mature now than I was then, and I would probably look at the person I was then and think I was being a little simplistic. It's simply that it's possible to take a stand and not be afraid of getting hurt if you believe in the cause. My grandfather, from Peru, was a hero in my book - he didn't just risk a few lumps and cuts and a couple nights in jail, he was pursued by death squads and lived several years in exile while trying to fight for his principles (which happened to be for democracy, against military dictator Odria) - his children, including my Mom, used to get smuggled across the border just to visit him. He spent a lot of time in jail - although that was an era when, really, one educated and committed person with some determination really could change a society, especially a society like Peru's. Not only do I not have his energy, I don't live in the same times as his, so I don't think I could ever be a hero on that level.

      But I'm arguing against cowardice and complacency, not to impress you. You should be asking yourself what's possible for you do to, not simply trying to debunk anyone who might be doing more.

    31. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by unitron · · Score: 2
      "Are they going to try to arrest all of these people?"

      Perhaps you've noticed the recent discussion of modifying a certain Reconstruction-era law in order to allow the military to be used domestically for certain police functions?

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    32. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by unitron · · Score: 3, Funny

      So instead go up there with a small tape recorder rigged to throw a puff of smoke and a tape with Carly saying "Should you or any of your team be captured of killed, the board of directors will disavow any knowledge of your actions.".

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    33. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by maxpublic · · Score: 2

      If you aren't willing to go to jail you have no convictions.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    34. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Courageous · · Score: 2

      The _size_ of a company wouldn't change a thing. I still have a house payment, still have to buy food, still need money for fun. I _have_ to work. But if an employer said something like that to me, I _wouldn't_ have to work. I still _would_ work, mind you, I'd just do things that are more fun.

      C//

    35. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by ichimunki · · Score: 2
      A little late in replying, but I don't think less of Bruce Perens for not doing this. I was just trying to elucidate the conversation in such a way that made HP's likely stance a lot gentler. The parent post made them sound like drooling jackals... and I wanted to point out that if they let him do this, they lose credibility as they (to quote you) work within the system.

      And yes, I am willing to go to jail and spend the next year in court for my convictions. Except that in this case I see no reason to do that, I simply avoid DVDs altogether. Problem solved.

      --
      I do not have a signature
    36. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by JabberWokky · · Score: 2
      And yes, I am willing to go to jail and spend the next year in court for my convictions. Except that in this case I see no reason to do that, I simply avoid DVDs altogether. Problem solved.

      Since the thead has tapered off, I figured I'd toss in a final thought that I personally would not go to jail over this right now. I don't think it's quite necessary at this juncture; your opinion may vary, but the DMCA is getting hammered and chipped away slowly in court cases. If I had a family and kids, I wouldn't even consider going to jail over DVDs at all. Of course, if it were something like the right to critisize your government in public writings that was at stake, I'd go to jail rather than stay silent. I have convictions that are strong enough to warrent an illegal action on moral grounds, I just don't think DVD regioning is worth it, nor is it necessary in that particular fight. The DMCA as a whole is on very uncertain ground, and hopefully will melt away in judicial decisions over the next several years.

      Remember folks, if the executive branch doesn't enforce it, or the judicial branch rules against it, the legislative branch can make as many stupid laws as they want. It's all about checks and balances. Let's hear it for sane appointed judges prevailing over technoignorant elected congressmen.

      --
      Evan

      --
      "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
    37. Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience by Courageous · · Score: 2

      Someone taking the liberty of issuing a terroristic threat to an employee is PER SE proving themselves to be a narcissistic power monger with a sense of invulnerability. IOW, they are _ALREADY_ acting stupid.

      C//

  2. You want HP to do what? by shlong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I wish HP had given him their blessing on this, but I guess they have to worry about shareholders first..."

    Written by someone who does not seem to be employed in the corporate world. How can you possibly expect any company to openly endorse a law-breaking event? Sheesh!

    --
    Cat, the other, tastier white meat.
    1. Re:You want HP to do what? by Telastyn · · Score: 2

      Probably the same way that the Government endorses law-breaking events... "You shouldn't do that" *wink wink* *nudge nudge*

    2. Re:You want HP to do what? by feldsteins · · Score: 2

      I find it odd that HP isn't getting a bigger knock in the slashdot forums for this. Everyone seems so rational and understanding and matter-of-fact. Usually one would expect "OMG! The MAN is keeping us down!!" and such. Is it because they sell Linux? What gives?

      --
      You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
    3. Re:You want HP to do what? by dh003i · · Score: 2

      How can you possibly expect any company to openly endorse a law-breaking event?"

      Gee, because its already happened and is happening. Companies that openly endorse breaking the law:

      Microsoft (monopoly, unfair competition)
      Nike (child-labor in 3rd world countries)
      Enron (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)
      Global Crossings (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)
      Martha Stewart's company (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)

      I can go on.

    4. Re:You want HP to do what? by bskin · · Score: 4, Informative

      How can you possibly expect any company to openly endorse a law-breaking event?"

      Gee, because its already happened and is happening. Companies that openly endorse breaking the law:

      Microsoft (monopoly, unfair competition)

      Yes, they spent all the money on their defense because they were openly endorsing that they broke the law.

      Nike (child-labor in 3rd world countries)

      Yes, they love to advertise this fact. (And I'm not sure what they do is against the law, either. It may not be right, but that's not the same thing as illegal.)

      Enron (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)
      Global Crossings (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)

      And that worked out so well for these companies.

      Martha Stewart's company (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)

      You seem to have a good deal of trouble distinguishing between endorsing something openly and doing something illegal. Not to mention confusing individuals within a corporation with the corporation itself.

      The reason there's such a mess in the market right now is because shareholders are not happy with these actions. People broke the law, and the companies and shareholders got fucked. It's quite rare that a public company is going to openly do an illegal action and not only admit to it, but "endorse" it.

      --b.

      --
      hot foreign sheep.
    5. Re:You want HP to do what? by guttentag · · Score: 2
      Hold on there slim. Many corporations break the law, but openly endorsing the practice is another matter. Microsoft still claims it hasn't broken any laws (which is the exact opposite of an open endorsement), Enron admits its previous management broke the law and condemns it (again, opposite of open endorsement), Martha Stewart denies she broke the law, etc.

      When corporations break the law, they endorse the practice behind closed doors and only if the practice is profitable. That's very important. HP would not profit by endorsing a violation of the DMCA.

    6. Re:You want HP to do what? by liquidsin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, I guess you're right. We wouldn't want a large corporation to stand up for what's right as opposed to what the U.S. government mandates. If he had intended to give his demonstration in any other country in the world it would have gone unnoticed, but due to corporate interest in the U.S., an overly-broad law was passed that serves no purpose other than to infringe on the rights of consumers (we're not citizens anymore, we're consumers). So, yeah, I would love to see a company like HP stand up for the rights of the people who got them to where they are today. Unfortunately it'll never happen. Oh, and by the way, I am employed in the corporate world, and you missed my point anyways. They could have just as easily stood idly by and watched. I'm quite sure that if I did something illegal on my own time, my corporate masters wouldn't get dragged into court for it. What he does on his own time has nothing to do with his job. All that would be required of HP in court is to say he had the day off.

      --
      do not read this line twice.
    7. Re:You want HP to do what? by commodoresloat · · Score: 2
      Martha Stewart's company (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, ...)

      And don't forget those godawful cook books!

    8. Re:You want HP to do what? by shlong · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Was anybody asking for HP's open endorsement? Perens was going to be doing this as an individual on his own time, not as a representative of HP. Couldn't the company simply have abstained from involvement?

      Good point. However, you tend to loose your anonymity when you are high-profile. Whether Bruce Perens was going to do this on his own time and own dime isn't really relevant, because people will still say, "That's Bruce Perens of Linux and HP fame." I can imagine some high-level exec, maybe even Ms. Fiorina, getting a call about it the next morning from someone saying, "Do you know what your employee did yesterday?" Innevitably, HP would take heat for it. It's the consequence of being high-profile. I'm sure that Linux Torvalds, Alan Cox, etc, all share that burden too.

      And yes, the original submitter was asking for HP's endorsement.

      --
      Cat, the other, tastier white meat.
    9. Re:You want HP to do what? by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      Of course. Corporations are by nature immoral. You can not expect them to take any action which is moral unless it leads directly to profit. Of course there are so few moral actions that lead to profit but that's another story.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    10. Re:You want HP to do what? by Reziac · · Score: 2

      If HP were to endorse it, they could conceivably be convicted of aiding and abetting, or something like that. I'm not sure how far the vagueness of the DMCA could be stretched by an imaginative lawyer. :(

      Bruce is a smart boy; he'll find some other way to make his point, and I'm sure next time he'll find some means that won't put anyone else at unwilling risk.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    11. Re:You want HP to do what? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2
      Well, if they are in for a knocking, it really should come from me. But I don't think their point was incorrect - they felt that I'd be pulling HP and their Linux program in with me. I'll live to fight another day.

      Bruce

    12. Re:You want HP to do what? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2
      You're correct.

      Bruce

    13. Re:You want HP to do what? by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      There is no real difference between amoral and immoral when it comes to beings. Yes objects can be amoral but any action taken by any being is either moral or immoral.

      Corporations are beings (you say legal fiction but the supreme court which is a legal entity says that they are beings). More precisely they are immortal soul-less beings and in this regard they are much like the demons and devils which are described in religious texts.

      As an aside making profit is actually immoral if your morality comes from christ or budha. Both of those figures preached a life of charity and poverty. They both repeatedly warned against accumulating wealth, borrowing, lending, and usury. Since corporations are built only to pursue wealth they are inherently immoral. Also since corporations are designed to shirk personal responsibility they are immoral.

      "Besides, if they were fundamenally immoral, whose morals is it that they try to violate? People have different views on what's moral."

      Very true. If you were a satanist for example pursuing wealth and accumulating it are very moral activities. If you are christian or a budhist then they are not moral activities. If you are a moslem then you have no problems with accumulating wealth. It all depends on where you are coming from.

      Capitalism most closely resembles satanism something I find facinating.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

  3. In other news... by warmcat · · Score: 5, Funny

    Mr Perens now able to walk without wheelbarrow; confirms HP has his nuts in a very large jar.

  4. Mass disobedience by crosbie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What would be far more effective and less risky would be for Bruce to figure out a nice cute way to get each member of the audience to violate the DMCA.

    1. Re:Mass disobedience by Z4rd0Z · · Score: 2

      In what way would that be circumventing copy protection?

      --
      You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
    2. Re:Mass disobedience by echo · · Score: 2

      Because, in order to copy the poem one would have to "circumvent" the copy protection... in this case, the copy protection is the envelope... you have to take it out of the envelope in order to copy it.

    3. Re:Mass disobedience by gilroy · · Score: 2
      Blockquoth the poster:
      Because, in order to copy the poem one would have to "circumvent" the copy protection... in this case, the copy protection is the envelope... you have to take it out of the envelope in order to copy it.
      So, is an envelope a "technical access-control device"? What if I rot13 something, twice?
    4. Re:Mass disobedience by VValdo · · Score: 2

      hmm ... pass out CDs with Sony's copy control system and Sharpies' to each member of the audience. Explain how to circumvent the copy control on the CD. Ask members of audience to proceed ...

      Nope. Just telling them how to do it is a violation of the DMCA.

      W

      --
      -------------------
      This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    5. Re:Mass disobedience by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Informative
      We actually only had 45 minutes for the talk, and after Martin's preamble to my speech, it was more like 30. So, I did the talk, quickly, without additional attempts to demonstrate. There will be other opportunities for that. My demonstration was intended to show how the common person could be a DMCA-violator, not how a room-full of geeks and nerds could do it deliberately. We'll figure out another way to make that point.

      Bruce

    6. Re:Mass disobedience by Ratface · · Score: 2

      Bruce - will there be a transcript of your talk posted anywhere? It would be interesting to hear your views on how we all can contribute to a campaign of civil disobedience against the DMCA.

      I rememberthe huge civil disobedience campaign against the Poll Tax in the UK, where pretty much 50% of the country refused to pay the tax. That had the effect of prdding the government to change to a fair(er) system. Civil disobedience *can* be an extremely useful method of protest. More power to you.

      --

      A little planning goes a long way...
  5. IANAL but... by Zaphod+B · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems to me that I recall from the few law courses I took that when an employee breaks a law during the faithful performance of his duties, his employer is equally culpable and thus open to criminal liability.

    Now, whether he was going to be doing this in the faithful performance of his duties is a matter of some debate, but I can fully understand HP's nervousness in this matter.

    A better (and more efficient if less symbolic) thing to do would be for Perens to convince HP to use their [considerable] legislative influence to get the DMCA modified. Companies lobbying against laws with which they disagree is a hallmark of the American corporate world.

    --
    Zaphod B
    When duplication is outlawed, only outlaws will have /bin/cp
    1. Re:IANAL but... by liquidsin · · Score: 2

      Considering that the whole focus of his presentation is to be the horrors of the DMCA, I'd doubt that he's doing this as a work-related duty. I'd think HP would be just as upset about him bad mouthing the law as they would be about him breaking it, if he were doing this as a representative of theirs. And if he's not doing it as official HP business, then whatever he does, he does on his own time. If my employers ever start telling me what I can and cannot do on my own time, it's time to find a new job.

      --
      do not read this line twice.
    2. Re:IANAL but... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2

      Corporations cannot commit criminal activities, only individuals. The only exceptions to this are rico cases. Corporations are only ever liable to civil action. HP could be concerned that the MPAA would sue them, not criminal procedings.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    3. Re:IANAL but... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2
      You are correct.

      Bruce

    4. Re:IANAL but... by liquidsin · · Score: 2

      Thanks for speaking up Bruce. It's unfortunate things had to go this way. I totally understand HP's stand on this, and I don't blame them one bit, but I still think it sucks. It's a shame things in the U.S. have gone so far that corporate interests can entirely squash free speech and academic presentations.

      --
      do not read this line twice.
  6. DMCA inhibits free speech again by alienmole · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is an excellent example of how the DMCA can have a chilling effect on free speech without even having to be tested in court. People often focus on the law itself as the threat, but as much of a threat can be how companies and individuals behave in response to the law - self-policing can sometimes be the worst kind.

    1. Re:DMCA inhibits free speech again by alienmole · · Score: 2
      It doesn't sounds as though you understand the issues that the DMCA raises. You're not alone, and this is one of the reasons that the DMCA has remained unchallenged for as long as it has.

      I'm plenty old enough to pay for CDs, and I do. I've occassionally previewed downloaded music, but I haven't stolen a penny from the RIAA, by any definition. But this is so far from being the issue with the DMCA that it's not even funny. I don't have time to write up an essay about it right now, but I'll try to encapsulate it briefly.

      The DMCA represnts an unprecedented extension of copyright and intellectual property (IP) powers in favor of the IP owners. IP owners now have the right to control your use of their creations in ways that they previously, under established fair use laws, did not have a right to do. In addition, if you choose to circumvent the law - as people do all the time, such as when speeding or parking illegally - you are then subject to extremely punitive fines and jail sentences.

      Your point about hardship is irrelevant. For the record, I fled the country of my birth, under threat of arrest for a non-violent political offense. I've experienced life under a non-democratic government. Yes, the situation may be worse for other people and in other places, and the DMCA is not as serious as, say, the rule of the Taliban was. Does that mean we should simply give up more of our freedoms to corporations who want more money and greater control over our wallets and our actions? Obviously not. It's an irrelevant point.

      Another subject that's poorly understood in these discussions is what intellectual property really means. There's longstanding legal precedent which acknowledges that creators of IP benefit from access to the public domain in creating their works, which is why laws only allow an IP owner limited control over their works for a limited period of time. IP owners like Disney, however, have succeeded in gutting this principle in the law, and the DMCA extends this gutting much further, eliminating many forms of what was previously considered legal fair use.

      There's a common myth that intellectual "property" should be legally treated like any other property, but just a little thought and applied intelligence indicates that this is clearly not the case.

      In my opinion, much of what's in the DMCA will not survive when it finally reaches the point of being properly tested up to the Supreme Court level, because it violates basic premises of what is in the public interest. Unfortunately, the DMCA itself provides enormous disincentives to challenging it - in the form of extreme fines and sentences for even minor acts - which was the point of my original post.

    2. Re:DMCA inhibits free speech again by unicron · · Score: 2

      >>Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean that one cannot be compassionate, uphold ideals, or stand up to tyrants.

      You obviously don't know what a Tyrant is.

      >>Then again, I don't see the fat, greedy sharks you are so eager to defend, being all that needy either

      Just because I attack one side of something does not mean I favor the opposing side.

      >>Do you own a Sharpie felt tip pen? Under the DMCA, it is an illegal copyright circumvention device. Welcome to your jail cell, and enjoy that oppressed feeling.

      Yeah, the cells are overfilling with people in there for that.

      --
      Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
  7. Shareholders? by Uttles · · Score: 2

    Like it's really going to make a difference? Hell if he broke the DMCA I'd buy stock just in spite of stupid laws.

    --

    ~ now you know
  8. Congress shall make no Law by Rupert · · Score: 2, Flamebait

    They don't have to. Corporations like HPQ will do a fine job of abridging freedom of speech without any help from the government.

    --

    --
    E_NOSIG
  9. Too bad by Alizarin+Erythrosin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's too bad. I was hoping that his demonstration would show the DVD industry how lame their little region scheme is, and how easy(?) it is to circumvent. If they want to continue using the region system they should consider making some DVDs region free, like the DVDs mentioned in the original article (Gladiator was one of them I believe) and other popular ones.

    --
    There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
  10. Just breaking the law is pretty pointless by jguthrie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Frankly, I can't see the point of just breaking the law in public. In my opinion, a better course of action would be to set up the conditions for a test case that could be won in the courts. That will likely require some public lawbreaking, but will also require there be something about the lawbreaking that demonstrates how the law in question isn't reasonable. Simply showing how easy it is to violate said law isn't going to do that.

    1. Re:Just breaking the law is pretty pointless by gorilla · · Score: 2

      In order for there to be a test case, the law has to be broken.

    2. Re:Just breaking the law is pretty pointless by Sway · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not only does it seem like a poor demonstration, but I find it a little disturbing so many people seem to think it's a good idea. Let's step back and not use Bruce's name or refence the DMCA law he was planning to violate. Let's just say so-and-so was planning to break the law in public. Is that really a good thing? Is that really something you want to cheer for? It certainly seems like misdirected frustration.

      *shrug* maybe it's just me :)

      --

      Peace. Sway

    3. Re:Just breaking the law is pretty pointless by markmoss · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the american legal system, the courts really, really dislike to rule on theoretical cases. It would be very unlikely that any federal court would take a case initiated by Perens of "if I do such and so, is it illegal or constitutionally protected." There are three good reasons for this:
      1) Real cases often hinge on the particular facts more than Constitutional interpretation.
      2) Taking a non-case makes more work for the judges.
      3) There is some history of the Supreme Court stepping beyond the actual facts of a case and trying to express how the principles would apply in other cases. Many of these rulings are now considered aberrant and deplorable (Dredd Scott, e.g.).

      And a federal court has already refused to consider one not entirely theoretical case: Dr. Felten, who cancelled a presentation because of a threatening letter from one of the **AA's. By the time he got this into court, the conference was already over, and the **AA was saying they would never have a legitimate researcher prosecuted for presenting his research results - they'd already got what they wanted, but because there was no _current_ case, the court wouldn't look at it.

      So, to actually get the DMCA in court, you've got to have a case of someone being prosecuted for an actual violation. If Perens demo & lecture would be a violation, and if the authorities weren't smart enough to ignore it, then this would be the right test case; Perens was merely presenting the results of research into a technical security measure to a conference of researchers. It's a perfect 1st amendment case.

      Furthermore, the circumvention Perens proposed is NOT of copy protection, but simply of a dubious technical scheme to restrict the trade of DVD's across borders, which is routinely and legally circumvented in many other nations. Free-trade conservatives ought to dislike region-coding (or at least government action to ban circumventing it) as a restriction on free trade. Liberal judges ought to hate it as another way for big business to screw the consumer.

  11. Re:probably a good thing by ultima · · Score: 2, Troll

    Unfortunately, as we see time and time again, Americans are willing to trade their freedom for a bit of money. If Perens was serious about risking jailtime, why isn't he willing to resign from his position at HP before giving the presentation?

    A true patriot might die for his country; I'm sure there are more than enough companies and hackers willing to donate a bit of cash if needs be until he finds another job.

  12. on of the best things by Satai · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the best things about Bruce Perens is that he's so active in the actual community as well as the upper-echelons of aforementioned community - he's so active here, on the Slashdot forums, lending a great dialogue to any article about him.

  13. I guess what's needed... by alispguru · · Score: 2

    ... is the backing of a company big enough to handle the potential legal expense, and not afraid of (or already aligned with) the media giants. They should be on at least speaking terms with the open source community, too.

    Apple springs to mind. Anybody else?

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
  14. Shareholders by nuggz · · Score: 2

    Good, finally a company doing what is right for the people that OWN the company.
    I guess Enron, Worldcom and a few others should have done that too.

  15. HP has nothing to worry about. by tato+(and+tato+only) · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The last thing that the entertainment cartel wants to do is to force a large, respectable corporation with deep pockets into a position of having to defend itself against a DCMA violation. A well-funded legal effort by a respectable defendant could possibly result in the DCMA being found unconstitutional. The entertainment cartel will continue to hand-pick its legal challenges to be sure they do not take on any they might lose.

    --
    tato (and tato only)
    This post is strictly opinion, including the spelling.
  16. Re:Article by uncoveror · · Score: 2

    Bruce Perens should at least give a speech about how it theoretically could be done instead of demonstrating it, or read the presentation Edward Felten was intimidated into not giving, If Felten would be willing to share it. Any one who wants to be sure not to violate the DMCA can read this article, and avoid a senseless blunder that might get them into hot water.

    --
    The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
  17. Re:Sad by MrResistor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you are truely so offended, then I humbly suggest that you volunteer to perform the DMCA violating presentation as an introduction to Mr Perens' presentation.

    In other words: take up the banner or shut the hell up. The last thing we need is more armchair revolutionary grumbling.

    Alternatively, you could take a little time to educate yourself about the actual reason HP asked him not to do the demonstration, and perhaps even explore the actual reason he agreed. I suspect an old adage regarding picking ones battles applies here.

    --
    Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  18. Similar Tactic to Felton's by cbowland · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Mr. Perens might be trying a similar tactic to Professor Felton. As you recall, Felton essentially tricked the evil doers into sending him a threatening letter which he then tried (unsuccessfully) to use as a basis of prior restraint.

    Looks like Mr. Perens might be able to make a better case for prior restraint now.

    Or maybe he caved, as most of us do that have to live and work in the real world.

    --

    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
    Teach him to eat and he will fish forever.

  19. Region free is standard in Denmark. by martinm_76 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I haven't seen anyone market a non region-free DVD player in Denmark in at least 2 years now, so in the current situation it would seem to be very good to live outside of America.
    Region-free DVD drives is another matter, though. For some reason they do not seem to be so common.
    As far as I know, though, no law here says anything about you not being allowed to *make* it region free.

    Honestly, I wish the DVD consortium would just let the regions slide. What's so bad about people in region 2 playing region 1 DVDs? Or any other region for that matter. Most people in Europe bye the Region 2 DVDs anyway, but it seems ludicrus to expect people to only be able to view other regions than their own a set number of times before it's all over.
    I hope they realize at some point that all they gain is bad publicity and most likely very little extra capital.
    Most of us in Europe like titles subtitled in our own language, which is doubtfull would be on the DVD region 1 media, unless they finally decided to make one big region 0 disc...

    --
    Regards, /Martin Moeller.
    1. Re:Region free is standard in Denmark. by cocotoni · · Score: 2

      Funny side of the DVD regions is that they were created to protect interests of US studios. Therefore you should not be able to buy a region one DVD and play it in, let's say, Europe (region two), before they decide to sell it on european market, or even before it hits cinemas. But as far as I know no other country but US makes restrictions on region-free DVD players.

      So, if you live in US you do not need to break the DMCA, since you get your DVDs before others and cheaper, and in Europe you do not have DMCA so you can break it as much as you want with region free player.

      There must be something wrong with concept of DVD regions?

    2. Re:Region free is standard in Denmark. by mpe · · Score: 2

      So, if you live in US you do not need to break the DMCA, since you get your DVDs before others and cheaper,

      It's not quite so simple. The US tends to get movies on DVD before the rest of the world. But TV series, especially US/Canadian produced ones, can easily appear on DVD in Europe and Australia on DVD long before they do so in the US.

    3. Re:Region free is standard in Denmark. by Hektor_Troy · · Score: 2

      Hej Martin (fedt navn i øvrigt - samme her, blot Schou til efternavn :-)

      You are absolutely correct about the situation in Denmark at the current time, but come December 23 (as far as I have been able to find out, which is sadly mostly hear-say) Denmark will ratify the European Unions charter, which you can find in Danish here: http://www.fs.dk/jura/loveregl/mfl/eu/pdf/opin_dk. pdf (page 8, chapter III, article 6) and in English here: http://www.fs.dk/uk/acts/eu/pdf/opin_en.pdf

      This charter would make it illegal to basically import/create/sell/buy anything that can be used to circumvent copy protection mechanisms, if those mechanisms are "effective" ... what an "effective" protection is, isn't mentioned, so it could very well include the CSS, even though it has been public knowledge how to defeat that since what ... 1999, using what ... 512 bytes of code or a prime number?

      Just to plug my site (which I hope won't get slashdotted, as that would set my 512kbit U/Dline on fire) I have written an interesting article attempting to start a debate on the subject (which has failed so far). The site can be found at http://fair-use.dk - I can't link to the article, as the annoying CMS doesn't fully support multiple languages, but it's the only article on the site (both in English and Danish) and it's titled "Fair use".
      Anyway, this is just me rambling.

      Forreste - Martin Møller ... det navn lyder bekendt, men jeg kan ikke lige sætte en finger på det ... kan jeg få et hint?

      --
      We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
  20. Orwell 2084? by hackus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think, the result from this could be quite serious and doesn't change an otherwise very scary future picture of Internet use in the US.

    The entire fiasco sets a very bad precedent for DMCA observance.

    First of all, Mr. Perens I don't believe acted intelligently, in behalf of the Open Source community, by legally attempting to challenge the law while being employed by someone who has no choice but to observe it.

    I would have thought that would have been common sense, readily realized by Mr. Perens.

    Secondly, this could do some serious damage to the credibility of what Open System Engineering/Source attempts to do:

    That is to free the market place from corporations attempting to garner complete control over every single piece of equipment, professional occupation, or ideas that are produced using a computer, and making it legal (Required by law actually) to tax it at ANY price they see fit.

    If you don't pay that price you can't:

    1) Create Software of any kind.
    2) Own a Computer of any kind.
    3) Access any sort of information of any kind.
    4) Create ideas using digital technoloy of any kind.

    Unless...you pay said corporation a fixed sum, or give up rights to everything you create to said corporation and ONLY use thier products to do so.

    Congress has legislated a DMCA that will destroy this countries IT economy as it tries to compete under those conditions with countries that do not recognize such draconian practices on its populace.

    It will be virtually impossible, for the US to compete in the world economy if patent laws, DMCA laws are allowed to stay in place. How can you produce computers for example when half the cost of the computer is locked in a monopoly market driven software industry in the USA, and hope to undercut local distributors as such in China for example, who are building thier own OS's or preloading Linux on the same computers for 50% less?

    All of this of course is a monpoly that has been legislated by a collusion between industry and government that is making the IT industry in this country extremely ill, running amock with corruption, bad products, and close to ZERO innovation now for the past 4 years.

    Hang on to your Devils and Penguins boys in girls because very very soon, THE MAN will be knocking at your door asking why you are web serfing on a UNAUTHORIZED piece of STATE equipment NOT endorsed by COMPANY X who RUNS THE INTERNET.

    Don't you KNOW SILLY MAN, we need to control what you information you access, use and pay for because you MIGHT BE A TERRORIST.

    Hack

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
    1. Re:Orwell 2084? by hackus · · Score: 2

      Yeah, well, I wish I WAS smoking crack because half of the things I have seen lately in the US makes me think EVERYONE ELSE IS smoking crack.

      Especially the patent office and our dear Congress.

      Hack

      --
      Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
  21. In other news... by Zelet · · Score: 2, Funny

    In other news today, the Bush administration finally got the bill it has been seeking. Under current law, any contributor (as long as they are incorporated) of $200,000 or more to a government leader such as a Senator or President may get unconditional control of the U.S. military for 3 months. Supreme Commander, the High and Holy Hollings has announced that Commander Gates has paid for a millennia of U.S. Military control with Peter Pan and Mickey Mouse as Generals. Gates gave the honorary title to S.C.H.H. Hollings for his efforts in passing a bill that would allow MicroDisney to raise and use an elite paramilitary unit to raid and kill evil software/IP pirates with no fear of prosecution or oversight. Not surprisingly, there was little upheaval to this bill. One lady was quoted as saying, "Well, I don't pirate." The software pirates themselves had little comment considering that they were dead.

    Bush, after receiving his check quickly cashed it only to find that there were insufficient funds for payment and realized that the check was actually made in an EZ-Bake oven. Bush, upon complaining to the Supreme Court was found to be a software pirate and killed. The Supreme Court, coincidentally, was also found to be software pirates and killed also.

    Under new leadership the United States of America is now called the U.S.A. Inc. and Subsidiaries.

    In unrelated news, a software glitch at Offutt Air Force Base and Space Command launch a small nuclear attack on China killing 900 million and wounding 150 million more. Gates responded with the offhand remark, "shit happens, don't pirate."

    --
    ...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
  22. No, that's the whole problem by Interrobang · · Score: 2
    Good, finally a company doing what is right for the people that OWN the company. I guess Enron, Worldcom and a few others should have done that too.
    Actually, believing that shareholders "own" the company, and that the most important thing to do is to keep the shareholders happy is precisely what got Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, and others in trouble -- they were so concerned with inflating (artificially) their share prices (to benefit their insider-trading shareholders) that they lost track of what really drives businesses' success or failure: keeping their customers (internal or external) happy. Speculation is precisely that: speculation. It truly doesn't create wealth (in any conventional sense), but it certainly has the potential to destroy it, as we learned when the entire Enron pension fund went belly-up.

    Let's hope that HP has a little more sense than to let shareholders dictate their entire company policy out of their self-interests (what about HP's customers?), whether or not Perens ever goes on stage. Still, I thought it would have been interesting to see.

    Legal issues aside, I'm not sure how Perens' planned demonstration would affect HP customers...
    1. Re:No, that's the whole problem by nuggz · · Score: 2

      And those shareholders got what they asked for.
      They asked for stupidly high share prices, they got stupidly high share prices.

    2. Re:No, that's the whole problem by axlrosen · · Score: 2

      The most important thing for your company to do is to keep your shareholders happy, but one of the best ways to do this is to keep your customers happy. However, you also need to keep costs low, keep your employees happy, keep from getting sued, etc. It's a big balancing act. "Keep the customers happy, give them what they want, and your business will succeed" sounds good but of course it's not that simple. Your customers want a great product for free, and you can't give them that.

      These guys tried to keep their shareholders happy by illegal, and short-term, means. They gambled that they could keep it going, and not get caught, and they lost. Companies that use different means to keep their shareholders happy in the long term will eventually win out, in the long run. It's those kinds of companies that care about keeping their customers happy (among other things).

    3. Re:No, that's the whole problem by bskin · · Score: 2

      Actually, believing that shareholders "own" the company,

      It's hard to let this pass. Owning the company is the definition of what a shareholder is. This is not a misguided view, it is simple fact.

      --b.

      --
      hot foreign sheep.
    4. Re:No, that's the whole problem by unitron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nowadays shareholders own companies about like people own commercial software. You bought it, but someone else controls it.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  23. I don't think it's the DMCA specifically here by Vicegrip · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem here, as has been meentionned in other posts, is that Perens is at this conference as a representative of HP. As such, HP could be held liable for whatever "illegal" acts he does at this conference.

    It's not a function of the DMCA, it is the way general liability is construed to function by the courts in the USA. Otherwise put, you'll be hard pressed to find *any* company terribly eager to sponsor you directly or indirectly for your civil disobedience. When you're on somebody else's coin, they have a big say on what you do.

    --
    Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
    1. Re:I don't think it's the DMCA specifically here by alienmole · · Score: 2
      What's special about the DMCA is the extreme degree of punitiveness of the penalties it allows. For the "offense" Perens was planning to commit, it makes no sense (except to an RIAA member) that anyone should be on the hook for years in jail and $500,000 in fines - especially considering that the offense in question is actually no offense at all, under previously extant accepted legal fair use principles.

      So my point is that the DMCA protects itself against challenges by being so extreme - if no one is willing to violate it and test its legality in court, and may be left standing despite the fact that it violates long-established legal principles.

      Aside from anything else, this is rather disturbing in its implications for future laws: to avoid challenges to bad laws, the creators simply have to make sure that the punishment is serious enough to discourage such challenges. Allowing the DMCA to stand sets a bad example for future corporate-sponsored laws. Corporations are succeeding in creating large, blunt instruments that they can wield without ever going to court. Yes, this has long been the case in the US legal system, but the DMCA is an extreme example.

  24. Discrimination? by viper21 · · Score: 2

    Isn't region coding some sort of geographical discrimination?

    -S

  25. Expected. by crucini · · Score: 2

    I pretty much expected some lawyer at MPAA/DVDCCA to call HP's legal department and warn them that an employee might be exposing them to liability. Whether there really is any liability or not, it's easiest for the company to put the brakes on.
    And that's probably what happened.
    Similarly, Cadence contractor James Hanna was fired for involvement in pro-Palestinian activism.

  26. where is Bruce today? by oliphaunt · · Score: 2

    In the original story yesterday, Bruce posted at least 3 comments (that were all modded up to 5 almost instantly). Where is Bruce today?

    You said you knew some good lawyers, Bruce. Did they tell you something new? Did /. ruin the party for you? What happened?

    --




    Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    1. Re:where is Bruce today? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I was at OSCON giving my talk. And then in an airplane back to Oakland. What did you think?

      Bruce

    2. Re:where is Bruce today? by oliphaunt · · Score: 2

      I was afraid T H E Y had gotten to you. I'll just go put my tinfoil hat back on now...

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    3. Re:where is Bruce today? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Funny
      OK. I thought you expected me to have slashdot attached at the hip :-)

      Bruce

  27. Heh by A_Non_Moose · · Score: 2

    Time to burn off some karma stating the obvious:
    HP has been such a conservative company, and getting more so, I'm hardly suprised.

    And the cynical BOFH type I'm becoming says think about the following:

    Carley could not sell the Compaq merger to HP (had to force it thru).

    Bruce could not sell a DMCA violation to HP. (hey, neither could 2600 to a biased MPAA judge)

    HP can't sell printers to Dell anymore (or something to that effect).

    Bruce has the balls to do it, but HP doesn't have the guts to back him on this one, because, if they did, they'd do what Gateway did to the RIAA, because all the things that made HP great are gone or slipping away.
    Think about it: HP was great because the founders were *ENGINEERS*, much like Appl*B**'s is run by chefs. Now HP is run by..., well,... PHB's.

    --
    Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
  28. Re:It was a dumb idea anyway by martyn+s · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Besides the fact that it's perfectly legal to modify your cassette player, if you could figure out how, to play CDs. That's the real crux of the issue.

  29. HP did what it had to do... by Etcetera · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As much as I dislike HP (and risk losing mod points), I have to say that I understand their position.

    Our legal system is so screwed up that there's a distinct possibility that **AA might be able to find HP liable in some way for Perens' actions. Even if they don't, it's worth it to the **AA to try.

    HP, understandably, would prefer not to have to spend untold millions of dollars defending itself against this.

    While I, too, wish HP was willing to risk the liability for the chance to stand up for what's Right, I understand their position. And I understand that Perens understands their position. And so I understand why Perens is backing out. I don't blame him, and I full believe that he intended to go through with it. But there's no reason/point/honor in exposing your employer to multi=-million dollar liability (or multi-million dollar legal bills) unless the entire company is will to stand behind his actions.

    Maybe next time..

  30. WHY should DMCA protect region coding at all? by Wolfier · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I thought a copyright act should only protect copyright, or in the case of DMCA, methods to protect copyright!!

    Region coding has nothing to do with "copyright" at all, just a lame money grabbing scheme!! Why should the DMCA protect it?

    The word in the law is "protect access to copyrighted works".

    What "Access"? So if a publisher put glues on the CD cover so it sticks to your hand, is washing the glue off and throwing it away a circumvention and thus breaks the law?

    This "Access" thing has to be more unambigously defined! It should REALLY be changed to "protect reproduction access to copyrighted works"!! What's so hard to understand? Let's make a case to change the word in the law!

  31. Or maybe... by Alsee · · Score: 4, Funny

    XXAA vs Hewlett Packard the Honorable Judge Halfaclu presiding

    Judge Halfaclu: Call your first witness.
    Lawyer: I call Bruce Perens. Mr. Perens, did you have a discussion with Hewlett Packard regarding a possible DMCA violation?
    Bruce Perens: Yes. They told me not to do it.
    Lawyer: And what did you say?
    Bruce Perens: I said "OK", I won't do it.
    Lawyer: And then what happened?
    Bruce Perens: I changed my mind and did it anyway.
    Lawyer: Against Hewlett Packard's specific request?
    Bruce Perens: Yes.
    Lawyer: So Hewlett Packard didn't know?
    Bruce Perens: No.
    Lawyer: And even if they had known, was there any way they could have prevented it?
    Bruce Perens: "Any way"? Ummm, well I guess they could have hit me with a baseball bat and locked me in a dungeon.
    (laughter)
    Lawyer: I mean was there any legal way they could have prevented it?
    Bruce Perens: Umm, none that I know of... but, ahhh, I am not a laywer. Some of my friends are laywers though.
    Lawyer: Thank you. No further questions
    Judge Halfaclu: CASE DISSMISSED AGAINST HEWLETT PACKARD. Prosecution may procede against the defendant Bruce Perens.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  32. Sorry, I don't care by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2

    Hollywood is winning, folks. You are losing. And you'd better start caring.

    Losing what? The ability to play DVDs from another country? It seems to me that the only one losing anything is Hollywood, since I won't buy DVDs which I can't play. Not that it would be a problem if I really needed to play them anyway. I have DeCSS.

    1. Re:Sorry, I don't care by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hollywood is winning the ability to use the DMCA to coerce individuals and corporations to bend to their will...

      So don't buy their products. It's really not that difficult.

      and we are losing the ability to have freedom with the information that we've legally paid to have access to (e.g. the information on a region-encoded DVD)...

      We've already lost that ability. That's what copyright law is all about. Also, see above. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

      that is why people better start caring... because the day may not be distant when your CD player, your PC, your DVD player, even your car stereo will have to ask permission from the MPAA or RIAA before being able to play a piece of media, even if it's legally obtained...

      If you don't like it, don't buy it.

      freedom is at risk... I @!$#ing care about that...

      Very little actual freedom is at risk, unless you mean the freedom to profit off the copyright infringement of others. How has the DMCA affected your life? It hasn't affected mine one bit. But then again, I'm not profiting off the copyright infringement of others. Go figure.

    2. Re:Sorry, I don't care by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2
  33. Re:I don't get it? by acceleriter · · Score: 2, Funny

    I think they're called Compaquard Bell now.

    --

    CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.

  34. Re:probably a good thing by ryanvm · · Score: 2

    Oh bullshit. What have you done?

  35. Re:Someone please explain.... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    Because in this case, the actions of the person would directly reflect on the actions of the company?

    Plantiff: Your Honor, we believe that HP illegally stole our stuff.
    HP: That's ridiculous.
    Plantiff: Oh? Like your employee Bruce Perens breaking the DMCA and pirating DVDs live, on stage?
    HP: .....bloody hell.
    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  36. Why should he bother by imnoteddy · · Score: 3, Informative
    ... and why should the audience listen when a simple Google search finds the info for you?

    IANA DMCA violater but did you know that many DVD players have their firmware in FLASH ROMs? And that if you insert a CD into one of these with files named and formatted properly the FLASH will automagically update? This must very convenient for the manufacturer if a firmware bug is found.

    I certainly can't imagine that anyone could think of another use for this feature. :)

    --
    No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.
  37. Give ME Some of the Crack you are smoking by dbretton · · Score: 2

    The last thing that the entertainment cartel wants to do is to force a large, respectable corporation with deep pockets into a position of having to defend itself against a DCMA violation.

    The entertainment cartel (or, rather, their enforcers: the US government) would not prosecute HP. They would prosecute Perens personally. Then, once they defeat Perens in court (by hook or crook), the entertainment cartel will pursue HP, using the legal ruling in the Perens case to seek punitive damages in the tens of millions.

    1. Re:Give ME Some of the Crack you are smoking by donutello · · Score: 2

      More likely, HP will settle out of court. I don't care what a bunch of people who don't understand law think, the DMCA is very likely constitutional and even if it wasn't, HP won't care to fight that battle - it has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

      --
      Mmmm.. Donuts
  38. You just made his point by MeNeXT · · Score: 2
    I think you have made his point. Prior to the DMCA he could talk about his research. Now due to the DMCA he is unable to talk about the DMCA. Strange No? Where is the freedom of speech?

    --
    DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
  39. Re:I am just curious ("true patriots"..) by walt-sjc · · Score: 2

    Your right. I'm SURE Bruce has wads of cash on par with that of the MPAA and other hollywood groups to defend himself. *Snort*

    I also suggest that you RTFA as he wasn't going to show people how to "steal" movies, but rather show them how to play a DVD they PURCHASED in another region. This is a was a VERY good way to show how the DMCA violates free speech and harms consumers, yet now we will have to settle for another demonstration of the "chilling effect" that the DMCA has on free speech.

  40. HP? by g4dget · · Score: 2

    Why does this have anything to do with his employer? Is Perens employed by HP for the purpose of breaking DVD players? If he is doing it on his own time, HP shouldn't care and shouldn't be liable (of course, they might still want to fire him for violating a law, but that's another issue).

  41. Re:Someone please explain.... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    Bull. They're perfectly free to say 'if you have a history of breaking the law in our field, we will terminate your employment.'

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  42. I second that by linuxlover · · Score: 2

    Dear Mr Perens,
    if you don't like a law, work to *CHANGE IT*, NOT to *BREAKE IT* .

    yours
    a sensible guy!

    1. Re:I second that by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2

      Breaking it, leading to a public court case in which it is found unconstitutional, is the best way to change it, in this case. As it is in many cases. Demonstrating actively that a law is 1. unenforceable and 2. destructive is far more effective than just saying so.

  43. Region-tweakable is already here by KC7GR · · Score: 2

    At least it is in some older players. If you're fortunate enough to own a Pioneer DVL-505, 909, or a Pioneer player with similar electronics, Click here for a mod that shows how to make it region-switchable, and another that will kill the Macrovision output on the baseband video side.

    --

    Bruce Lane, KC7GR,

    Blue Feather Technologies

  44. Foks, This is Why We Live Under Tyranny by FreeUser · · Score: 2

    Written by someone who does not seem to be employed in the corporate world. How can you possibly expect any company to openly endorse a law-breaking event? Sheesh!

    Folks, this is why we live under tyranny.

    "When good people do nothing, evil flourishes." and all that. Even when we as individuals are willing to stand up to abuses of our constitution, if our Corporate Masters disallow us (and we obey them, valuing our well paying jobs over our freedom), then in fact tyranny will not be stood up to, and it will continue to thrive and grow unabated.

    Worse still, those entities which have the means to do something about this kind of thing generally have no interest in doing so, no matter how just or right the cause.

    This is an example of precisely the reason people cannot be moved to put up a fight when their freedoms are trampled ... even those of good conscience put their jobs, and thus their employer's interests, first, and their own liberty (and that of their children) a distant second.

    Until this changes we will lose, again and again. I for one do not expect it to change until conditions become absolutely intolerable, and as much as it pains me to see the Internet neutered in much the same way the printing press, the telephone, television, and radio have been (take from the hands of the common man and restricted to the elite), I do not think losing the internet or losing general purpose personal computers, and the exponential growth in technology they have enabled, will come anywhere close to the levels of deprivation required for people to, finally, get off their overfed, apathatic, cowardly asses.

    This is just the beginning, folks. Get used to it.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  45. Historical Context by FreeUser · · Score: 2

    as much as it pains me to see the Internet neutered in much the same way the printing press, the telephone, television, and radio have been (take from the hands of the common man and restricted to the elite), I do not think losing the internet or losing general purpose personal computers, and the exponential growth in technology they have enabled, will come anywhere close to the levels of deprivation required for people to, finally, get off their overfed, apathatic, cowardly asses.

    In rereading it I see that this probably isn't terribly clear to a lot of people. Historically, government (and entrenched oligarchs, which are essentially one and the same) have moved very quickly to restrict any new medium of communication from control by the common person.

    The british crown did this with the emergence of the printing press, creating the first iteration of copyright, which restricted who was allowed to possess a printing press and publish and provided extremely harsh punishment for anyone violating the restrictions (including drawing and quartering, which happened to more than one independent publisher). These restrictions had absolutely nothing to do with artists being compensated, its sole purpose was to create a cartel of publishers answerable to the Crown, whome the Crown could keep under tight control.

    In the early days of the telephone there were numerous, competing companies. At the time the U.S. government chose to legislate a nationwide monopoly, granting said monopoly to AT&T (who enjoyed this privelege for several decades). The 'excuse' was that this was the only way to have a coherent, interoperable network. The truth was quite different ... already these regional, and in some cases competing, companies were connecting their networks together. That did not stop the government from putting almost all them out of business, overnight.

    Radio and Television are similar. The FCC has been extremely draconian in its regulation of the spectrum, a spectrum which many have argued quite compellingly could have done without regulation altogether, or have been much more losely regulated through civil law ('your signal may not interfere with the pre-existing signal, interference defined by these measurable parameters, otherwise you are free to broadcast where, when, how, and on what frequency you like').

    Instead we have an FCC which made it illegal to create your own private radio or TV station almost from the start, has placed the bar in terms of money and equipment so high that no one other than a large company can afford to enter the business, and yet has turned around and given away large portion of the same airwaves to the same, well entrenched, elite interests.

    Now we have the internet and open, general computing, creating a revolution in communications the likes of which the world hasn't seen since the printing press or the advent of radio and television. In the historical context I've outlined above it should surprise none of us that a coordinated, deliberate, well financed, and thus far quite effective campaign is being waged to take the internet out of the hands of the common man, and place the tools for publishing and disseminating information back into the hands of the elite.

    Essentially the same oligarchs (or rather, their descendents) want to control what we see, hear, and ultimately what we say now as did when the printing press, telephone, radio, and television were first invented. And, so long as we obey our corporate masters and refrain from speaking up on their cue, they will continue to succeed in doing so, with hardly a voice raised in protest against them.

    Frankly, by being so beholden to our fat, well paying jobs, and putting profit before freedom, we are getting exactly what we deserve.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  46. Re:I am just curious ("true patriots"..) by walt-sjc · · Score: 2

    As others have stated, removing the region restriction is circumventing a copyright protection mechanism and therefore violates the DMCA.

    The DMCA has a number of parts that violate free speech and ignores the court-upheld right of "fair use." This is why so many are opposed to it. The problem we have is that there hasn't been a good case where someone's free speech rights were violated - this is a prerequisite for a court challenge.

    One of the problems with our legal system is that it is VERY hard to challenge a law without a case proving that someone's rights were violated. The courts don't want to hear about what MAY happen, they want to rule on what DID happen. Felton tried to overturn a part of the DMCA due to a "threat" letter, but since no legal action was taken against him, the case was thrown out.

  47. Re:Sad by MrResistor · · Score: 2

    You don't know how HP "Persuaded" him to back down, maybe they threatened his job?

    Actually I do, because I read the article.

    He is giving the presentation as an agent of HP. If he breaks the law as an agent of HP, HP is liable for damages. It's pretty clear that Perens has no problem getting himself in trouble, but when it was clear that his actions would get someone else in trouble also, he chose to back down rather than expose that essentially innocent third party to liability.

    This is the right and honorable thing to do, and only increases my respect for the man.

    --
    Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  48. Re:Sad by MrResistor · · Score: 2

    RTFA

    He didn't back out because he didn't have the balls, he backed out because performing the demonstration would expose HP, not just himself, to criminal liability. Endangering others, especially those who support you in doing good works, for the sake of a public stunt is decidedly not cool, whether those "others" are helpless children or giant corporations.

    If the fact that he deals with his employer honorably makes him a sellout and suspect in your mind, then you are an idiot. Any true leader must be able to consider the consequences his actions will have for his allies, and act responsibly if that ally isn't prepared to accept that risk. Perens has demonstrated that ability, and it only increases my respect for him.

    --
    Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  49. Re:probably a good thing by mark-t · · Score: 2

    The answer to this is so obvious that I'm suprised you would even ask this question. As has been posted elsewhere in this topic, Bruce was quite willing to put his own neck on the line, but HP had raised the concern that his affiliation with them could cause HP to be the target of a lawsuit rather than Perens himself. The realistic possibility of this event is what has caused him to back down -- not because he doesn't want to get fired, but because he doesn't want HP getting in trouble for something he was choosing to do. It wouldn't matter whether or not Perens was doing this independantly of HP or not, HP would still be a target, and unless HP decided to fire him before he gave the presentation, they would not be able to prove that they were not somehow behind Bruce's efforts.

  50. Mr Perens, I have a solution for you. by A_Non_Moose · · Score: 4, Funny

    Give your presentation as per advised by your employer, which is the smart thing to do.

    Also, make your original presentation available on a CD-rom and attach a EULA to it reading:

    "By agreeing to this EULA you will not hold HP, Bruce Perens or any attendees of this conference, personally, legally, ethically, morally, physically, mentally, emotionally or any other *lly for that matter.
    If you are a member of the RIAA, MPAA, ABA, law enforcement (genus homo sapien or canine), political or judicial in nature, you hereby agree to stop breeding, kill any offspring and other kin you may have and then stop breathing should you have any need, want, desire, thought, inkling or idea to do or be the initiator, participant, party to or of any kind of lawsuit, harassment, annoyance or flatulance against Bruce Perens and HP.
    Failure to comply with the above and you will pay the legal fees of the prosecution, defense, judge, jury, state in which you file, donate to the EFF no less than the senator from Disney has been bribed...err...funded per day and sing "I'm a Lumberjack" every hour until the trial (which should not happen in the first place, but you had to be a dick about it) proceedes and co-council will have to say 'bork, bork, bork' every 20th word".


    Not only will you challenge the BS that is the DMCA but the EULA as well...because if the above EULA is valid and legally binding, well, somebody needs to lay off the crackpipe, get a sense of humor and be beaten by a clue stick before they can even approach the DMCA violation that they agreed to not to do anything about....and you just know it'll have to be submitted in original form, heh!!

    Feel free to add more asinine stuff and legalese up the arse with HP's lawyers... and find one with a mean streak who enjoys fscking with other lawyers.

    Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to rip AC/DC's song "Big Balls" to MP3....JUST BECAUSE I CAN.....muaahahahahahahaha.

    .

    --
    Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
    1. Re:Mr Perens, I have a solution for you. by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 2

      Oh. My. God.

      Please please please do it from Maryland! Then we can add the UCITA click-wrap licenses to the whole mess.

  51. If HP was worried about by Archfeld · · Score: 2

    shareholders they would have fired that LOUSY CEO long time ago. What they are worried about is the LAWYERS and 400 years of court battles.

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
  52. Re:Someone please explain.... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    They're not infringing on any rights. They're merely stating that if he takes action A, they'll take action B in response. They're not RESTRAINING him in any way. He's perfectly free to do whatever the hell he wants.

    Besides, freedom of speech doesn't apply to criminal acts, even if the act should not, by any stretch of the imagination, SHOULD be criminal.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  53. Pathetic by ikekrull · · Score: 2

    Why did you ever think HP would let you 'get away with this', Bruce?

    Its quite clear that your masters will never allow you to take such anti-establishment actions while in their employ.

    Its quite clear that corporate america and Open Source software / personal freedom just don't mix, and I think your credibility as an advocate of either principle just took a big nosedive.

    How long before you'll be rolled out on stage to espouse the benefits to the consumer of the closed-source DRM/DMCA-enforcement kernel modules in HP-Linux?

    --
    I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
  54. Re:It was a dumb idea anyway by gerardrj · · Score: 2

    No they are not two different formats. The content is in the same format. The only difference is a few bytes in the disk identifier that mark the region.
    Saying Region 1 and Region two are different formats is about as effective as saying two idetical doors are of different styles because one as an "enter" sign and the other has an "exit" sign.
    Both (regions and signs) are artificially imposed limitations on the use of the device.

    --
    Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
  55. Re:Maybe we should have faith in Mr. Perens' balls by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2
    I will live to fight again, as you say, but will make sure that HP and HP's Linux program (even more important) are not hurt by future activities, as they might have been by this one.

    Bruce

  56. Why I stopped bothering. (Serious.) by supabeast! · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wussy pansy crap like this is why I gave up on political action with geeks.

    Geeks are wimps. Geeks are happy to complain and bitch online, even writing a paper letter on occasion . But face a geek with some serious attempt to go against the grain, and he collapses.

    Pressure from society, government, and employers scares the living shit out of geeks. I was laid off about a year ago, and found a new job immediately, but took a month off. I spent the first two weeks doing nothing but trying to motivate people into some poltical work with UCITA and the DMCA. The most I got out of it was a couple guys agreeing to write letters if I brought pens, paper, and envelopes to a LUG meeting because they couldn't be bothered to do it themselves.

    We need an event to motivate geeks. Perens has decided not to be the one who does it, although one person being arrested probably won't do much, the last few times it happened people made phone calls, wrote letters, and the the EFF handled the legal stuff. We need something bigger. We need a room full of geeks, or someone like Linus tossed in jail for a very stupid reason. Until that happens, I'll just keep watching like everyone else.

  57. Nasreddin - background by Walter+Wart · · Score: 2

    Nasreddin was a Sufi. Supposedly, he was blessed - or cursed - by his shaykh with the highest possible state of enlightenment possible for a human being. But he could only communicate and teach it through jokes.

    Nasreddin's tomb is impressive. It has huge barred doors closed with thick iron chains. But it has no walls.

    --
    The man who never alters his opinion is like the stagnant water and breeds Reptiles of the Mind -- William Blake