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Xbox Security Keys Changed
anth writes: "A couple a months ago we discussed some reverse engineering of the Xbox which discovered the security code. The last paragraph of this letter from Nvidia says MS changed the code, and that they had to write off chips with old code as a result."
MS has the right to update and fix any software bit automaticcaly. :P
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
At some point the technology is just going to progress to the point that these silly hacks are not worth the time nor the money.
I have been pwned because my
We never blamed Xbox.
Yes, Microsoft is the one. I never blame Windows or Visual Studio.
Surely the nVidia Lawyer types should have seen this kind of thing coming, and keeping that in mind, should have built a clause into their contract with Micro$haft stating that they would receive a certain acceptable minimum notice of a Code-Change, so that the manufacturing losses (and hence financial losses) were minimised?
Hindsight, it seems, once again has 20-20 vision!
Disclaimer: I meant what I thought, not what I wrote! What? You can't read my Mind? Oh dear!
I doubt they changed the key as it would be hacked just as easily as the last one. What they've probably done is changed the encryption method to make it harder to do so.. I mean if you're going to scrap a whole lot of chips, you better do it right.
O poor monopoly powers. Entire chip lines and console plans changed by a lone MIT student.
I love it.
If for the software this changes nothing (and probably does, after all, the games must still play on the console), it probably changes something in the MOD chip. So that means that the new XBOX that is shipped will not be compatible with the old mocdhips. The result? MOD Chip installers will have to thrown away their old supply of mod chips to make new ones, unless there's a simple way to change the keys in the MOD chip. This is surely going to hurt the mod chip companies who will have to throw away their old mod chips and buy new ones. If Microsoft keeps changing the keys in the hardware often enough, the mod chippers are going to run in a lot of troubles determining which mod chip is needed for which XBOX. This is a brilliant move.
Even a close partner such as Nvidia could be fscked up hard this way, I wonder people would still trust other proprietary security control by MS.
:)
A slight changes in code could do such a damage, no wonder why MS want to push DRM and Palladium.
"My girlfriend and I spent friday night in the lab together"
:( i wish i had a girlfriend like that. actually... i wish i had a girlfriend lol.
Oh man
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Have a look here: Open Xbox - PC - Bioxx
Odd that it's just now coming out, eh? ;-)
Next
The next time they have to write off inventory because of a needed security change. Sure, hackers might not be the best friends to that contractual agreemnt NVidia has going, but at some point, they're going to get tired of writing off inventory and flushing money down the toilet just because Microsoft doesn't want people using the Xbox for ANYTHING but an XBox.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
This really sucks for Nvidia. They had the Xbox chips ready to go and MS, instead of using up the current supply and then transitioning, forces Nvidia to scrap the line and go with their newly resecured chips.
An analagy to this would be if MS upgraded our operating system in the run of the night and billed us for it; even though we did not consent for them to do this.
What is really funny is that modding consoles does no damage to the companies bottom line. MS makes money from developer fees, developers make money from the games they sell, and hackers get to have fun and maybe download a hacked game. (this assumes they have a dvd burner, which many don't). By doing this MS has made the XBOX look bad to hardware devlopers [who loose when they have to scrap technology], software developers [wouldn't want MS to change something games rely on], and the tech elite[who don't like MS anyway].
Of course this really doesn't matter much when it comes to Xbox sales and games. As the old sayings go, the games speak for themselves. Too bad the Xbox family lacks vocal cords.
Secondsun
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
excess in nForce chipsets that we built in anticipation of higher demand of Athlon-based PCs..
Never mind that the nForce was hype that never really beat out older motherboards.
Modchips cost $5. .bin work fine.
29F040 chips loaded with a proper
dunno how much money im loosing here....
And when the next xbox rev. is hacked, and the next chips costs $5 as well, everyone will be laughing, because we all know Microsoft can't create a secure system if their lives depended on it
This is a great tax write off for them, just think of what they can claim per chip, and the R&D cost.
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
There is a huge threat of terrorism in America, the land of the free, right now and you folks are not helping by spreading this illegal material around.
First off, Lets get a "few" things straight.
1. I go out and work my ass off everyday to get money to buy things like CDs, Video Game Consoles, DVDs, DVD Players, etc....
2. I now OWN these items that I have purchased. I am told I can't copy my CDs, rip my DVD's to make a "backup" copy and burn it to a CDR media. Also, I am not allowed to modify any hardware that I own.. (Which by the way it sounds like to me.. That since I bought a computer that runs at a clock speed of 1.4GHz I am not able to overclock it to 1.6Ghz if I want to because it was sold to me as running at 1.4GHz, I dont like that.)
3. Soon if all of this DRM crap goes through I will not beable to install anything that is not approved by certain companies (i.e. Microsoft). Meaning I can't install Linux on a computer that I purchased with Microsoft Windows on it. Even though I OWN the damn thing. I won't beable to add new hardware as I want to, I will have to call Microsoft to let them know I changed my hardware configuration (Windows XP does this now).
When I BUY something, I like to know that I own it and can do anything to it I want. If I want to take it out back and beat it to a pile of junk (Office space senario with copy machine). I should be able to, If I want to change a few settings in the hardware, I should be able to. It is MINE. I PAID for it. I am NOT renting it. If I want to rent something I will go to Blockbuster, or go look for an apartment.
You dont rent your car do you? Atleast with a lease you have an option to BUY it after the lease is up. This is like "insert favorate car manufacturer here" saying you CAN'T change your exhaust on your car that you bought from us, even though you own it now, Oh yea BTW that factory radio you have, you are NOT allowed to put that in either. When you get a flat tire, YOU will put on said brand of tires or we will sue the crap out of you. Do you like being told that crap? I know I do not like it.
So please explain to me how this is "illegal", or any part of "terrorism"? Please also feel free to explain how this is "the land of the free", if I am not able to do any of the above.
- br0ken
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It has already been discussed by people active in looking at the X-Box here, including a comment by bunnie, the original Hacking God. The current feeling is that until they stop using a commodity CPU, whatever they do can be worked around in greater or lesser time.
It is very likely it was spelled out in the contract that Nvidia would take that portion of the risk.
You're absolutely right. They can't break the existing installed base of games or consoles. So, all this is doing, is changing the way the hardware transmits the encyption electrically, forcing a re-design on the mod chip makers. Normally this happens when you do a board redesign, which is normally done when you can make the things cheaper, and is normally a carefully planned part of the cycle.
It's possible they've combined a couple of chips, and the savings from the redesign have outweighed the cost of dumping unused parts.
I reckon NVidia are just trying to avoid drawing attention to poor sales.
Everybody's commenting about how all the parts of this story don't add up, that these megacorps wouldn't make such obvious blunders, or handle them so crudely. Hmm. While the old "follow the money" trick may not directly apply in this case, it's close enough.
What is the upshot of this incident, once you filter out all the distractions?
1) Hacker bypasses DRM-type security
2) Company "forced" to retool/change security
3) Direct, demonstrable monetary losses
They need to set precedents that exposing obvious security gaffes (unencrypted signal on the bus in this case) leads directly to major financial losses. Makes future prosecutions much easier.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Illegal doesn't equate to immoral. However, you seem to have those confused in your mind.
It is immoral to do physical harm to others. Many of us consider guns (most especially handguns) to be nothing more than a device intended to cause physical harm to others. This is immoral.
A device like a modchip is not intended to do physical harm to others. When I use a modchip, does Bill Gates bleed? Nope.
If you can't see the difference between a device that causes physical harm to someone, and a device that causes absolutely no physical harm to someone, you have a morality problem, and are part of the problem, not the solution.
You aren't one of those people who go around telling people that "Guns don't kill people. Death kills people." Are you? Because if you do, you're the nutcase.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Remember, it costs Microsoft $300 to make an XBox, but they sell it for $200. That's why:
- The hardware is so good considering the price
- They're losing so much money on it
- They don't like the idea of people hacking the OS in any way
- Keeping the system totally proprietary is more important to them than even the survival of project
They intend to make money on the games, not on the box itself. They're paying for 1/3 of the box, so they want to keep tight control over what you can do with it.For reference for those who question the numbers, I got them from a MS programmer: Their employee purchase plan allows them to buy software at a Huge Discount. Their is no discount on the XBox; though they jokingly say you can buy it at cost if you really want to.
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea...."
RFC 1925
The problem is that Microsoft already spent $300 to make an xbox. They lose that money no matter what. If you buy an xbox they will get $200 and partially recover their losses.
In short, Microsoft loses $100 on an xbox if you buy it. They lose $300 if you don't buy it.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Aahhhh, but Microsoft didn't scrap a whole bunch of chips, nVidia did. Isn't that a slick way of sticking someone else with the cost of your mistakes? I'd be curious to know the volume procurement agreement between the two, and why the heck nVidia got stuck with excess inventory when the product was working correctly as designed. I would expect that when a customer error like the encryption/key issue forced a re-rev, the customer (in this case, Microsoft) would have been stuck with the inventory as well as the NRE (non-recurring engineering) fees for the rev, itself. This is tempered with the issue of whether nVidia had built to-order or built ahead. The latter nVidia would be stuck with.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Ok, I'll bite.
It is immoral to do physical harm to others. Many of us consider guns (most especially handguns) to be nothing more than a device intended to cause physical harm to others. This is immoral.
Police officers carry handguns. In the commission of their duties, they injure, and sometimes kill suspects (like that rapist in California who was about to kill 2 kidnapped girls.) By your definition, would police officers not be immoral?
Some soldiers carry rifles. In the commission of their sworn duty (to defend the country from enemies, foreign and domestic) they kill and injure enemy combatants, under order from their superiors, which go all the way up to the president, who is elected by the american people. By your definition, would not every american citizen thereby share in that "immorality"?
If someone was going to beat the living shit out of me because I was (insert race, sex, religion, or chosen lifestyle here), and I decided to take exception to this by defending myself and doing physical harm to my attacker, would I not be immoral by your definition?
Yeah, but these days the "fix" is usually replace the entire board or in some cases even replace the entire system. I wouldn't think that it's cost effective in any way to try to repair PCBs in this day and age.
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
It's the only way to stop these hacker-terrorists.
Of course, banning this one malicious tool is not enough,
we also need to ban oscilloscopes, multimeters and everything capable of measuring an electrical current.
For ordinary computer users, this means:
Under linux, run "shutdown now"
Windows users are asked to run a program.
"There is a huge amount of terrorism going on in America"
More like America "Bush @ Co." are terrorising the rest of the world with this new found "Agenda"...
You poor troubled American..
Regards
More and more concerned world citizen (Sydney, Australia)
to those 200,000 unsold XBox stocked in Japan? Landfill? ;)
I can't believe they would scrap that many chips over something so stupid. There must have been some bug in the chips that they needed fix and this saves face...
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
and it did wonders for their stock price, too. What...$20 to $9 in about a week? Yeah, great tax write-off.....::rolleyes::
Ferrari and other exotic car rentals in New York
Maybe it's also a marketing move. The can claim all the extra stock was not sold due to the need to replace the hardware.
Ie: "it's not we couldn't sell it. We have to ditch the hardware because of piracy. All money lost due to piracy, DoD please help is, they are destroying the industry!"
So they turn an error in they part into something that can help them strategically. This is just a posibility, but with MS you never know (with Windows, they never did a reversion like this. Remember the bug in XP cds, they just release it on schedule even though the shipped version already had security bugs. They just solved them after release)
unfinished: (adj.)
You guys really don't have grilfriends do you?
Compared to the EULA which comes with most females, M$'s EULA might as well read "do anything you want, anytime you want, any way you want".
Let's start with the basic rundown. The standard-issue female comes with a EULA which you "sign" without ever getting to read it. Any use whatsoever (even just looking at said female for very long) is considered signing. You are never allowed to read the EULA, but it will be referred to many times. Even should you abandon, leave or loose your female much of the EULA will remain in effect, and any parts of it can be re-enacted at her choosing at any future date. Even when you are given small glimpses into what this EULA might contain, it is usually encrypted and encoded in a format most males find completely confusing.
I would quote some of the more haneous parts of the female EULA, but my female's EULA promises dire concequences should I do so.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
Simple: Microsoft OWNS Nvidia (And if it's not them directly, it's some investor deep in MS or MS shareholders pockets)
unfinished: (adj.)
Some goes for the vast majority of commercial software.
Read reviews of shopping cart software
Seriously, you need to post the EULA for girls! This knowledge needs to be known! If not you, if not now, then who and when?
Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
If the modchips are indeed 29F040 chips, that means that the EXACT same chips, even the "old stock" modchips will work.
That F means flash - Take old stock, stick it in the burner again, you have current up-to-date modchips.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Ok, can you answer me this then: why is it that girls always seem to go for the most irritating, cocky asshole jerks there are.. like say.. you? these guys don't respect them, cant even say 'i love you', cant have a conversation that doesnt involve [insert major sport here] or lara crofts tits, are crap in bed (3 minutes lol), and complain all the time about how much they're being tied down.
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Girls do like guys who are jerks. There are all different reasons for this, and it really depends on the girl herself. To severely overgeneralize, they do it because they are insecure.
As a guy, you should see a woman who continues to date an asshole as a person with some pretty hefty issues they need to deal with internally.
I used to think just like you do about this subject, but then I got through puberty and moved on.
"cocky asshole jerks there are.. like say.. you?"
This is an outward sign of your biggest inner problem: testosterone. You aren't really in competition against every other male on the planet. Stop trying so damned hard and women will stop sensing this severe character flaw and actually start paying attention to you.
Take my words and use them to enrich your life, or use them to make you a bitter recluse... it's up to you.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
I consider SNES9X less inconvenient than having to fight with my 10 year old SNES every time I want to play Super Mario World, but if I could get the exact same game without the hassle of either an emulator
How is an emulator any more of a hassle than a native PC game? It's easy. Just install snes9x or visualboyadvance, let it associate itself to .smc (super nes) or .gba (gba), and set up the joypad bindings. Then put in the disk containing the copy of Super Mario World that you ripped from your cartridge (Super Mario World, Super Mario All-Stars+SMW, or Super Mario Advance 2) and play on.
In fact, it's usually easier than native PC games because you only have to configure the bindings of four emulators (NESten, SNES9x, DGen, and VBA) rather than every single game in your collection.
However, on the other hand, owners of copies of some titles aren't so lucky:
Only the total purists would care enough about the slight differences
You call the complete corruption of graphics and resulting unplayability of NES "Klax" on anything but LoopyNES a "slight" difference from the hardware? Last time I checked, the Klax hardware (Tengen Rambo mapper) is not very well emulated.
Will I retire or break 10K?