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Et Tu Brute? EMI to Sue AOL Over Musical Infringement

Posted by timothy on from the sounds-like-an-opera dept.

QGambit writes "Salon.com is running an AP story about EMI Music suing AOL Time Warner for using songs from its music catalog on TBS and the AOL service without paying for them."EMI's publishing unit contends that AOL Time Warner is illegally using songs for promotional purposes from "The Wizard of Oz," "Singin' in the Rain," and other classic Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer movies." Good. Now that they are turning on themselves, they will leave us alone for awhile."

40 of 122 comments (clear)

  1. Don't worry... by eparusel · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers to go around...

    1. Re:Don't worry... by einhverfr · · Score: 2

      You jest-- but the publishing houses have been suing RIAA members for failure to pay royalties while the RIAA was suing Napster. Hasn't stopped them before, and I doubt it wills stop them now.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  2. First! by NeuroManson · · Score: 2

    Semi intelligent post, actually...

    I always wondered about this sort of thing, for example, how many movies in the 1990s used the Aliens soundtrack for preview clips aired on TV, and how many of them actually had permission to do so... I mean there were roughly 10 seperate movies from 2-3 seperate movie companies other than Fox, all using the same track (I forget the title, but lets just say it's from the "escaping from the fusion atmospheric convertor plant" theme... You know which one I'm talking about...

    Anyhoo, who did they get permission from? Did they get it from Fox (the copyright holder on Aliens at least), ASCAP, the guy who orchestrated and copyrighted said soundtrack? Who gave permission?

    --
    Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    1. Re:First! by JabberWokky · · Score: 2
      Elfman themes from Beetlejuice, Batman and Edward Scissorhands were/are used all the time for early tv ads and teaser trailers for movies that (probably) didn't have their themes finished yet. With a strong sense of atmosphere, tension or light hearted oddness, they really work for just about any film.

      --
      Evan (no reference)

      --
      "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
    2. Re:First! by NeuroManson · · Score: 2

      That's true as well, but you see, many of these movies were released by seperate studios as well... So did the original composer recieve anything extra, did the movie companies in question give permission for an identifiable trademark (or similarly, the fact that that the Star Wars theme isn't immediately recognizable as such due to market recognition, which partially accounts for the concept of trademark or market image, and as such cannot be used for any movie preview not associated with Star Wars as a result)...

      I figure that Elfman's "The Forbidden Zone" theme was easily signed over to Dilbert though, because not many here even remotely remember that movie...

      --
      Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
  3. I don't think so... by Skirwan · · Score: 5, Funny
    Good. Now that they are turning on themselves, they will leave us alone for awhile.
    I'm pretty sure that most individual lawyers aren't multithreaded, but a massively parallel system like the legal department at EMI or AOL/TW has got to be able to do more than one thing at a time.

    --
    Damn the Emperor!
    1. Re:I don't think so... by jukal · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, more than one thing at a time, but remember the common design flaws in a distributed system: cumulating lag, reliability of nodes, communicational problems, congestion, diversity. What happens when that specialist every lawyer needs to understand a word, turns out to be a cocaine junkie and hears voices while meanwhile everyone runs into to the companys coffee shop and asks for that something special resulting in a congestion in the sewer network. Ohh now I am beginning to understand, is it that why an average court case takes a few years and costs a dozen millions.

    2. Re:I don't think so... by packeteer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      i dont think that this suit is a good thing... this is another axample of how companies are using their lawyers as a souirce of revenue... now victories from suits are considerd "part of the income"... its sad that to think that to make money you must sue...

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    3. Re:I don't think so... by Skirwan · · Score: 2
      communicational
      It's always nice to match a username to an actual person... I'm impressed to see you read Slashdot, Mr. President.

      --
      Damn the Emperor!
  4. Talk about picky by Shimmer · · Score: 5, Informative

    The meat of the story is at the bottom of the article. Apparently TBS owns the rights to the movies that contain these songs. TBS is in turned owned by AOL/TW. But EMI claims that TBS cannot transfer the rights to its own parent company! The exact quote is:

    "We gave them very personal use. It was non assignable."

    This just seems like an argument between lawyers about the fine print in an old contract. Not really relevant to the whole IP debate. (I'm sure that won't stop the /. hordes from descending, though.<g>)

    -- Brian

    --
    The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    1. Re:Talk about picky by T.+Will+S.+Idea · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True,

      But buying a company solely for its IP, stripping the company to the bone and firing all of its employees is a fairly common practice in business. (Although usually this is done with software or patent IP not music, which is readily licensed.)

      Making the songs non assignable, protects the company you licensed them to. It also prevents your arch enemy from licensing your stuff by acquisition.

      --
      If electricity is produced by electrons is morality produced by morons?
  5. They made their bed and now it's time to lay in it by digiZen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hehehe... The songs they mention are so damn old (How old is The Wizard of OZ, anyway?) that the copyrights should have expired a long time ago if we lived in a sane world. But thanks to the lobbying efforts of Disney, Time Warner and others in the record industry, they get to take their bitter medicine. I only wish they'd learn from their stupidity. I'm personally hoping that they spend oodles and oodles of money on $400/hr star trial lawyers, and maybe (if we're lucky) to reach an unsatisfactory conclusion for both sides - sort of like that recently passed retroactive webcasting fee is being groaned about from both sides. Only this time it would be a pleasant sound to hear Time Warner and EMI groan.

  6. They smell death in Atlanta... by E-Rock-23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    EMI knows that AOL-TW is in the hurt locker big time. They want to kill the jolly "You've got spam" giant and move themselves into position to take AOL's chunk of the communications pie. This would make EMI a direct rival to companies like Disney. With Enron well on its way to the treatment plant, WorldComm swirling it's way down the bolw with the other terds, and now an AOL-sized "crap-on-deck," what's next?

    I'll only be happy when Microsoft bows out or gets its act together...

    --
    Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
  7. Seems I read somewhere by thumbtack · · Score: 4, Funny

    that sharks sometimes attack each other when in a feeding frenzy....

  8. Ted Turner purchase of films... by DaedalusLogic · · Score: 2

    Ted Turner purchased MGM and its classic film library back in 1986, In the 90's Castle Rock and New Line hooked up with Turner Broadcasting and then New Line Cinema. Then of course Turner orchestrated the gigantic merger of his company with Time Warner in the late 90's. It would follow that since the songs were long ago attached to those films and there wasn't a clause in the agreement saying specifically that promotion is forbidden... Time Warner would be in the clear. Besides that geez what a bunch of nit picking wussies.

  9. I've often wondered... by baudbarf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Okay, I hear clips of movie audio played during radio station morning shows and as sweepers between songs advertising the radio station (god, how they annoy me!) and yet nobody says a word, nobody complains, nobody sues - is it illegal? It sure SEEMS illegal; using somebody else's copyrighted data to your own benefit without (I assume) reimbursing them or even getting their approval...

    Likewise, I hear music dubbed into low-budget films and shows on public TV; yet I somehow doubt that proper authorization was secured before they did so.

    Does anybody know if I'm correct in my assumption that these things are, indeed illegal; and if so, why people get away with it and practice it so blatantly?

    Thanks!!

    --
    You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
    1. Re:I've often wondered... by darkgreen · · Score: 3, Informative

      two different things - the movie clips in radio shows can be seen as either excerpted for parody, or for discussion/example (or a loose interpretation of 'educational') - IANAL, but this probably falls under 'fair use' in most cases.

      as for in movies and tv, that's a different (and lengthy) story. The songs used in movies (or anywhere else, for that matter) have to get permission from the publishers of the works (think of 'publisher' in this case as 'stock holder' - you can trade and sell publishing rights, as opposed to copyright, which always stays with the creator). You have both copyright and publishing rights to a song as soon as you create it, but you can sell a portion of the publishing or 'controlling' rights to someone else, so they can give permission for use in media. they can in turn sell those or a portion, etc.

      This happens in all instances of the broadcast of the song (in canada, the rights are handled by SOCAN, in the states, it's ASCAP or ... damn, i forget the other one), and usage permission from a publisher is required. I recently had two of my songs used in a movie, and although I share writing credits with other people, I was able to give rights for their use. But had they just used it, I would have had proper recourse.

      A lot of songs reside on databases that the tv/movie industry searches when they need a certain 'feel' or type of song - they then find on e of the publishers (people/companies with the right to give permission) and work out terms of agreement.

      A lot of times, low-budget movies don't bother because they don't expect to make money. you can't get money from someone who doesn't have any, in other words. In most cases in TV, they probably do have permission, and have worked out a percentage deal or one-time fee, depending on the popularity of both the show and music.

      --
      You don't need Geeksintraining if you're on Slashdot.
  10. It�s still our fault!!! by DaHat · · Score: 5, Funny

    All of us are to blame because we watch, if our tv's would prevent the viewing of unauthorized pieces of music then none of this would ever have happened. This is why we need DRM to keep us from being forced to listen to/see illegal broadcasts!

    --
    Help Brendan pay off his student loans
  11. are you sure? by tanveer1979 · · Score: 2

    "Now that they are turning on themselves, they will leave us alone for awhile"
    The will settle out of court, and then come to you. They will take your recorder and junk it in the loo
    they will break your burner and scare you wil their boo
    AOl bit the dust, and you will too

    --
    My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
    FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
  12. Crimson Tide as well by DaHat · · Score: 2

    Hoodlum, Mullhullin Falls, Star Trek Nemisis, and a few others I can't named used some of the scores from the Crimson Tide soundtrack... you do make an interesting point about that, I've always wondered why it was that movie previews tend to use music from existing movies.

    --
    Help Brendan pay off his student loans
  13. Re:Never mind that... by pollock · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The difference is that Strauss' music is in the public domain.

    Check out PD Info for answers to most of your questions about public domain music.

    In particular, notice that Strauss is listed under s .

  14. No honour amongst thieves... by MrCreosote · · Score: 2

    or lawyers.

    --
    MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
  15. How long? by supabeast! · · Score: 2

    How long will it be before executives and investors finally realize that the only people making money off of all these crazy copyright/anti-piracy/region control legitslationing/lawsuits/scheming are the lawyers, modchippers, and Macrovision?

    Hello, McFly?

    1. Re:How long? by bellings · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How long will it be before executives and investors finally realize that the only people making money... are the lawyers?

      Do you remember the old story about the two guys who get being chased by a bear? The first guy sits down, ruffles through his bag, pulls out a pair of running shoes, and starts to put them on. The second guy asks, "What the hell are you doing? You can't outrun a bear!" The first guy replies, "I don't have to outrun the bear. I have to outrun you."

      To win, media companies only have to do two things: first, become the most successful of the existing media companies, and second, raise the entry barrier so high that no other media companies can come into the picture and compete.

      Of course, this is EMI's way of raising the entry barrier higher. I imagine the story submitter found this to be a "good thing" because he can't imagine himself as a content producer himself. More artificial restrictions on the people who create thing won't affect him in any way, because he knows he's never going to create anything anyhow.

      --
      Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
    2. Re:How long? by philovivero · · Score: 2
      Of course, this is EMI's way of raising the entry barrier higher. I imagine the story submitter found this to be a "good thing" because he can't imagine himself as a content producer himself. More artificial restrictions on the people who create thing won't affect him in any way, because he knows he's never going to create anything anyhow.
      The media cartel has won...? He not only knows he'll never create anything anyhow, he also knows no-one he knows will ever create anything anyhow.

      Why, in 2002, when we have these wonderous machines that allow us to create sublime and wonderful works, does no-one ever figure they'll create anything?

      Do we lie down and give up now? Death seeps into our bones?

      No, I don't think we will. A revolution will come...

      --
      fifth sigma, inc.
  16. Fighting words by achurch · · Score: 3, Funny
    For some reason, this quote sent me into fits of laughter:
    "We believe that AOL Time Warner, and a whole bunch of their companies, have been rampantly using our copyrighted material without licensing it or paying for it," said Martin Bandier, chairman and chief executive of EMI Music Publishing.
    1. Re:Fighting words by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2
      and a whole bunch of their companies

      Actually, that was a pretty standard colloquialism where I was raised - I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't pointed it out.

      If they'd referred to "a whole mess of their companies", then you know we'd be fixin' to see 'em throw down.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  17. This is good. by squaretorus · · Score: 2

    Every economy needs a wealthy core population which is happy to spend its money on over priced luxury items - from plates of soup to Mercedes.

    Lawyers were getting bored with chasing ambulances, and many were considering getting out of the business and starting a small organic farm in Provence.

    Now they just need to dust down their 'media rights 101' material and find an abuse - preferably where the accused can afford to defend - as the case will last longer and therefore cost more money.

    Too cynical?

  18. Here come the judge... by MosesJones · · Score: 2


    EMI: We gave them personal use only

    AOL: We have only made copies to ensure that they we don't lose the originial.

    EMI: But they didn't keep it just for themselves they gave it to their parents.

    AOL: Well the kids just can't be trusted not to lose this stuff.

    EMI: Then the parents shared it with their friends

    AOL: No Way, we played it for our own personal use, its not our fault 30 million people were watching.

    Judge: Isn't this just what you guys complain about with people copying CDs ?

    EMI + AOL: OH NO, that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT, that is ILLEGAL AND PEOPLE SHOULD BE HUNG, this is just verification of a fine point of legal detail.

    Judge: Ah right.... lets go have lunch, you guys are buying as you'll bill it to your clients. ... to be continued... appealed... and without seeing the relevance to the wider debate.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
  19. NUMA, not massively parallel by tlambert · · Score: 2

    Legal departments are NUMA, not "massively parallel". They can quite happily sue other people over things they are currently being sued for and defending against, and not see the contradiction, because they are running seperate instances of the law in question.

    For example, RIAA has a "Beowolf Cluster" of lawyers...

    -- Terry

  20. Godzilla vs Mothra by x1048576 · · Score: 2, Funny
    Now that they are turning on themselves, they will leave us alone for awhile
    Didn't you notice that when Godzilla and Mothra fight, Tokyo gets trashed anyway?
  21. Re:Not connected to our Good Causes by alizard · · Score: 2

    And how is the average gnutella user any different?
    Anyone who can't figure that out belongs in an aol chatroom with the rest of the lusers.

    --
    Tech Public Policy stuff
  22. Re:Not connected to our Good Causes by lightcycler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    To misquote rosen, perhaps this will mean they take 10 minutes out from trying to steal our music.

  23. Bad by photon317 · · Score: 2
    Good. Now that they are turning on themselves, they will leave us alone for awhile.

    This isn't good, it's bad. Bad Scenario - they sue us and win. Good Scenario - they sue us and lose. Worst Possible Scenario - they sue themselves and lose intentionally just to set a court precedent to make it far easier to sue us.

    --
    11*43+456^2
  24. And the winner is.... by sohp · · Score: 2
    "Now that they are turning on themselves, they will leave us alone for awhile."

    And the winner will come out stronger and with no serious rivals. Prepare to be crushed.
  25. I just have visions by MarvinMouse · · Score: 2

    of these rampaging hordes of lawyers from EMI. Thousands of them running around attacking anything that looks like they can attack. At least now they are going to run into another rampaging horde of lawyers from AOL.

    They don't all have to attack AOL, but part of the blob will be occupied while they try to find other things to do.

    A lawyer with nothing to do is a very dangerous thing indeed.

    It's like a nightmare.

    --
    ~ kjrose
  26. music in trailers != music in movies. by oneiros27 · · Score: 2

    Blah...after a bit of searching, I found the article that I just read last week about the "Signs" trailer by Ant Farm:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/28/magazine/28TRAIL ERS.html?pagewanted=all

    They said that some of the most re-used music comes from "Dave", "Hoffa" and "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story".

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  27. EMI????? by pezpunk · · Score: 2

    EMI? Goooooooood BYE!

    --
    i could live a little longer in this prison
  28. Re:They made their bed and now it's time to lay in by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 2

    How old is The Wizard of OZ, anyway?


    IIRC,
    The movie (from which the songs in dispute stem) was released in 1939.
    The Book was published in 1900.
    You can get a copy of the Book (and most of the other works of Frank L. Baum) from project Gutenberg

    -- this is not a .sig
  29. Re:Not connected to our Good Causes by Arker · · Score: 2

    Oh really? I don't use the services you mentioned, but I'm certainly shocked to hear that most gnutella users are involved in a commercial enterprise.

    --
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